WEBVTT - Nothings off Limits - When you don't feel blind enough.. (Ep9) 0:00:03.980 --> 0:00:08.210 Nothing's off limits, things off limits, bringing together experts and 0:00:08.210 --> 0:00:11.510 people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love 0:00:11.510 --> 0:00:15.020 to avoid but absolutely need to talk about made with 0:00:15.020 --> 0:00:19.189 the support of efficient Australia and the NDIS information linkages 0:00:19.190 --> 0:00:22.040 and capacity building grants, including grants. 0:00:23.690 --> 0:00:27.540 Hello and welcome to the series where nothing's off limits. 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:30.620 My name is Polly and together with my co-host Tess, 0:00:30.620 --> 0:00:33.890 over 10 episodes will be exploring some of those topics 0:00:33.890 --> 0:00:37.040 which we might usually consider off limits and discussing them 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.519 openly and honestly and through the specific lens of blindness 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:43.820 and low vision. Remember, you can download this podcast from 0:00:43.820 --> 0:00:47.059 the Vision Australia website. Just go to Vision Australia dot 0:00:47.060 --> 0:00:50.060 org type. Nothing's off limits into the search engine, and 0:00:50.060 --> 0:00:51.769 you'll be directed to a web page where you can 0:00:51.770 --> 0:00:54.680 listen to this and earlier episodes and do make sure 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:56.780 you subscribe to make sure you don't miss any or 0:00:56.780 --> 0:00:59.930 if you prefer. In this episode, we are talking about 0:00:59.930 --> 0:01:02.960 some of the issues specific to having low vision, and 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:05.330 I particularly like to thank those of you who suggested 0:01:05.330 --> 0:01:07.760 this topic to us when we were researching what we 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:10.370 should cover in these podcasts. One person who got in 0:01:10.370 --> 0:01:14.210 touch talked about the sometimes uncomfortable sensation of being in 0:01:14.209 --> 0:01:17.179 between not blind but not sighted, and like, you never 0:01:17.180 --> 0:01:20.690 quite fit anywhere. Vision Australia estimates that of the three 0:01:20.690 --> 0:01:23.929 hundred eighty four thousand people in Australia who are blind 0:01:23.930 --> 0:01:27.589 or have low vision, approximately 10 percent are blind, whereas 0:01:27.590 --> 0:01:30.649 a staggering 90 percent have low vision. And yet you've 0:01:30.650 --> 0:01:33.709 told us that often people have a hard time understanding 0:01:33.709 --> 0:01:36.140 the idea that there is a spectrum of vision loss 0:01:36.140 --> 0:01:38.330 and what it means when you have some vision, but 0:01:38.330 --> 0:01:40.550 that vision is compromised in some way. What are the 0:01:40.550 --> 0:01:43.610 specific challenges you might face if you have low vision? 0:01:43.610 --> 0:01:46.819 And how do you navigate the literal and metaphorical obstacles 0:01:46.819 --> 0:01:49.070 of seeing differently? I guess today agreeing going to share 0:01:49.070 --> 0:01:51.230 some of their experiences, as well as some of the 0:01:51.230 --> 0:01:54.350 strategies they've developed to enable themselves and others to get 0:01:54.350 --> 0:01:57.290 their heads around the concepts and realities of having low vision? 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:59.480 We asked you, have you ever thought you are not 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:02.330 blind enough and got some really interesting answers? 0:02:02.780 --> 0:02:12.380 Nothing's off limits. With Tess and Polly Polly, have you 0:02:12.380 --> 0:02:14.180 ever thought you're not blind enough? 0:02:14.389 --> 0:02:18.500 No, I haven't. But I wish others would recognise that 0:02:18.500 --> 0:02:20.600 I am blind and ask to do some of the 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:22.610 things that I need to do to get by in life. 0:02:22.850 --> 0:02:26.329 Sometimes when I get on a bike without my cane 0:02:26.330 --> 0:02:29.810 or I'm walking around the shops without an ID game 0:02:29.930 --> 0:02:32.389 and I'm staring at things, they look at me only 0:02:32.389 --> 0:02:36.020 because I'm not blind enough to be obviously blind, especially 0:02:36.020 --> 0:02:37.820 during COVID. And when I'm in a supermarket looking for 0:02:37.820 --> 0:02:40.310 some chocolate, I'll be up 14 chocolate bars to find 0:02:40.310 --> 0:02:42.320 the one that I want to buy. And everybody is 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:44.720 looking at me going, Why is this guy touching 14 0:02:44.750 --> 0:02:47.169 chocolate bars and you hold them up to your nose? 0:02:47.180 --> 0:02:51.170 So it's not immediately obvious that I'm visually impaired. So complex. Yeah, 0:02:51.169 --> 0:02:53.600 I wish I'm more blind. Yeah, but I wish it 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:56.089 was more obvious to others. That's a better answer. 0:02:56.419 --> 0:03:00.829 Yes. And it's quite challenging when you're not really sure 0:03:00.830 --> 0:03:04.970 what kind of box you fit into. Are you low vision? 0:03:04.970 --> 0:03:08.580 Are you legally blind? Was the sort of metaphor you 0:03:08.650 --> 0:03:13.490 within the spectrum. It's worked to a disadvantage if I'm 0:03:13.490 --> 0:03:17.390 trying to get assistance or support from the government where 0:03:17.389 --> 0:03:21.470 you don't fit into the blind category because you don't 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:25.460 fit within the threshold. Actually, I've been told I'm not 0:03:25.460 --> 0:03:28.700 blind enough. I applied for a job as a disability 0:03:28.700 --> 0:03:31.310 presenter at the BBC. They were looking for people 0:03:31.310 --> 0:03:33.559 with disabilities to present programs to increase 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.529 representation. Frankly, I did it with contact lenses and instead 0:03:36.530 --> 0:03:39.260 of the Big Coke bottle bottom glasses and I was 0:03:39.260 --> 0:03:42.080 told No, so you don't know disabled enough. But on 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.420 the other hand, I talk to people all the time 0:03:44.420 --> 0:03:47.000 who try and get them to tell their stories who 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:48.830 who site is much worse than mine and have had 0:03:48.830 --> 0:03:52.190 a much tougher time than me. So I really consider 0:03:52.190 --> 0:03:54.590 myself lucky for the partial site that I have. 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:59.300 Yes. How long have you got for me to this long? 0:04:01.100 --> 0:04:04.100 I think I mentioned earlier that I use a cane 0:04:04.100 --> 0:04:06.290 and I still have some vision, so I have very 0:04:06.290 --> 0:04:09.620 low vision. And so when I'm using my cane because 0:04:09.620 --> 0:04:12.740 it tells me all sorts of information like how close 0:04:12.740 --> 0:04:15.050 things are to me and where steps are and how 0:04:15.050 --> 0:04:17.300 deep they are and all those sorts of things, which 0:04:17.300 --> 0:04:20.570 is why I need it. People automatically assume as soon 0:04:20.570 --> 0:04:23.300 as I'm using the cane that I have absolutely no 0:04:23.300 --> 0:04:25.910 vision and I've never had any vision and it's really weird. 0:04:25.910 --> 0:04:28.820 Sometimes I feel like I need to pretend that I'm 0:04:28.820 --> 0:04:31.160 more blind than I am in order for it to 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:34.489 not have other people be really confused or think I'm 0:04:34.490 --> 0:04:37.940 some kind of weird fraud that likes to go around 0:04:37.940 --> 0:04:39.970 using a cane just for the fun of it. Yeah. 0:04:40.310 --> 0:04:43.640 And I get really bizarre experiences with this all my life, 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:46.910 like trying to get a plane and explain to them 0:04:46.910 --> 0:04:49.219 that you might just need a little bit of assistance 0:04:49.220 --> 0:04:52.039 knowing where the gates are and that you're not able 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.560 to read any of the signage. So could they please 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.409 just give you some good directions results in you being 0:04:57.410 --> 0:05:01.880 manhandled into a cart and driven around and led everywhere, 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:04.679 even though you might? Over and over again that you 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:07.560 have some vision and you're able to walk just fine 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:10.170 and you just need them to tell you where to go. 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:12.780 They seem to not be able to hear this. And 0:05:12.779 --> 0:05:15.090 then you find that you just pretend that you go blind. 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:17.700 I remember sitting on a plane going fine, I'm tired. 0:05:17.700 --> 0:05:20.240 I'm over this. I'll just pretend I'm completely blind. So 0:05:20.370 --> 0:05:21.900 I'm not a little boy. You need to do 0:05:22.020 --> 0:05:25.109 another little bundle of Bailey's would really help my wife. 0:05:27.660 --> 0:05:31.020 You're listening to nothing's off limits. We're tense and poorly 0:05:31.140 --> 0:05:33.450 produced by Vision Australia radio. 0:05:33.660 --> 0:05:37.290 It's now time to welcome our first guest. Tony Scott 0:05:37.290 --> 0:05:40.919 has actually been told that he's quote, not blind enough. 0:05:40.980 --> 0:05:45.789 He was also a gold medallist in the blind championship bowling. 0:05:45.810 --> 0:05:49.170 He's retired and we're delighted to have him with us today. Tony, 0:05:49.170 --> 0:05:50.159 thanks for being here. 0:05:50.250 --> 0:05:52.679 Great to be here from sunny Port Macquarie, which is 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:54.479 pouring down rain. Oh no, 0:05:54.510 --> 0:05:59.400 me. Oh, that's not good. Tony, my first question is 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:03.120 what is your vision loss and when have you been 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:05.490 told that you're not blind enough? 0:06:05.670 --> 0:06:09.420 Well, when I was first classified as legally blind, I 0:06:09.420 --> 0:06:11.880 had a lot, lots of trouble on the bowling green. Well, 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.479 I was the bowler. And now these days, after working 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.970 on all different tricks of the trade and whatnot, the 0:06:17.970 --> 0:06:21.720 number of so-called able bodied bowlers that say to me 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.810 that you're not blind because you can still bowl close 0:06:24.810 --> 0:06:27.779 to the kidney, whereas if I don't do that well, 0:06:27.779 --> 0:06:29.880 maybe you should have a look through my eyes to 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.580 see what I can see. I started to lose my 0:06:32.580 --> 0:06:36.320 eyesight about 20 years ago, and this gradually started, but 0:06:36.330 --> 0:06:38.369 it was a funny situation where it started on the 0:06:38.370 --> 0:06:40.470 left eye and then I'd lose a bit of eyesight 0:06:40.470 --> 0:06:42.420 and then it stop and then the ride I would 0:06:42.420 --> 0:06:44.640 start to catch up. And then once they got level again, 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:46.619 the left eye would then start again and in the 0:06:46.620 --> 0:06:48.599 right eye, and it was sort of going back and 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:51.840 forth until basically it sort of levelled off. I still 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.030 keep going back and getting a check every 12 months 0:06:54.029 --> 0:06:56.910 just to see whether it's improving or not, because you 0:06:56.910 --> 0:06:59.039 just learn to deal with what you've got. 0:06:59.130 --> 0:07:02.610 How did that feel then having low vision yourself and 0:07:02.610 --> 0:07:05.279 dealing with the challenges associated with that and then being 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:08.820 told that you weren't supposedly blind enough? It's a very 0:07:08.820 --> 0:07:09.900 strange phrase, isn't it? 0:07:10.020 --> 0:07:12.720 The funniest thing I can always remember when I first 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:16.010 lost my eyesight, though, I was that the Vision Australia 0:07:16.020 --> 0:07:18.989 shop in Bendigo, getting some aid to help me through 0:07:18.990 --> 0:07:21.690 a general day to day proposition, and they suggested that 0:07:21.690 --> 0:07:23.850 I wear a badge that I am visually impaired. And 0:07:23.850 --> 0:07:25.860 I said, Well, why the heck would I want to 0:07:25.860 --> 0:07:29.100 promote that? I am disabled or with low vision for 0:07:29.100 --> 0:07:31.580 the rest of the world and every day? Now that 0:07:31.590 --> 0:07:33.060 I think of that, I think I wish I had 0:07:33.060 --> 0:07:36.600 it got one of those badges because people just don't 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.540 think that your vision impaired. They basically say that there's 0:07:39.540 --> 0:07:42.239 two degrees of blindness. You're either totally blind or you 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:43.500 can see there's no bearing. 0:07:43.740 --> 0:07:46.860 It sounds like there's a real lack of understanding in 0:07:46.860 --> 0:07:50.640 the wider community about how vision loss manifests itself. Have 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:52.890 you encountered that outside of bowling? 0:07:53.010 --> 0:07:55.650 Very much so. I keep saying my able body, but 0:07:55.650 --> 0:07:58.410 with the people that can see there seems to be. 0:07:58.410 --> 0:08:01.800 The general consensus is that people are either NZ or 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:04.290 they can't see. There's no degrees of various other oddly 0:08:04.290 --> 0:08:06.030 totally blind, but they can see. 0:08:06.090 --> 0:08:11.760 So in realising that we have these community misconceptions. What 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:14.690 advice would you give for people who are low vision 0:08:14.700 --> 0:08:17.880 who are just beginning to deal with these misconceptions? What 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.010 are some any any tricks of the trade that you've 0:08:20.010 --> 0:08:21.060 learned to cope with that? 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:23.400 Well, a lot of it, you just learn naturally, you 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:26.400 do what your eyesight will allow you to do. You know, 0:08:26.820 --> 0:08:28.770 reading papers to start with, like I said, it has 0:08:28.770 --> 0:08:30.780 gone out the door because I just can't read for 0:08:30.780 --> 0:08:33.630 print anymore. So it's a matter now that I watch 0:08:33.630 --> 0:08:37.200 the news on TV, even the TV I do. I 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.689 sort of started to get bigger and bigger TVs, and 0:08:39.690 --> 0:08:42.270 I'd start moving the chair closer and closer and closer 0:08:42.270 --> 0:08:45.030 to the screen because I couldn't read the print that 0:08:45.030 --> 0:08:47.340 was on the TV. So I go out and get 0:08:47.340 --> 0:08:49.470 a bigger telly. So now I've got a really big 0:08:49.470 --> 0:08:51.870 telly and the take goes back again. And I know 0:08:51.870 --> 0:08:54.179 that when my eyesight starts to fail a bit more again, 0:08:54.179 --> 0:08:56.699 the chair will start moving closer and closer to the telly. 0:08:57.740 --> 0:08:59.679 So I don't have time to go back to the 0:08:59.910 --> 0:09:01.740 time interest and get my eyes check again. 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:05.850 And have you found, you know, when people have said 0:09:05.850 --> 0:09:08.459 that you're quote, not blind enough, have you found that 0:09:08.460 --> 0:09:11.490 talking to them about your low vision and explaining it 0:09:11.490 --> 0:09:12.000 to them? 0:09:12.010 --> 0:09:14.610 Has that helped in bowls, for example, their sport of 0:09:14.610 --> 0:09:18.420 classifications of blindness? You basically go from here legally blind 0:09:18.510 --> 0:09:21.119 after you're totally blind and there's a couple of classifications 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.160 in the middle of it. So I like to explain 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:26.910 the four different classifications just to educate people because unless 0:09:26.910 --> 0:09:29.160 it affects them directly, they just don't know. 0:09:29.250 --> 0:09:31.740 Tony, thank you so much for joining us. I think 0:09:31.770 --> 0:09:34.470 your words will really resonate with a lot of people 0:09:34.470 --> 0:09:35.579 in the same situation. 0:09:35.580 --> 0:09:37.800 Thank you. If I may say to people that are 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:40.350 losing their sight, don't let it get you down. Learn 0:09:40.350 --> 0:09:42.719 to deal with what you've got. Use what you've got. 0:09:42.750 --> 0:09:45.000 Don't think what you've lost what you still have. 0:09:48.270 --> 0:09:50.939 We had so many people we wanted to bring on 0:09:50.940 --> 0:09:53.309 to talk about this, that we're changing up a bit 0:09:53.309 --> 0:09:56.130 and devoting the rest of the program to bringing together 0:09:56.130 --> 0:09:58.890 a panel of guests who are vision to share their 0:09:58.890 --> 0:10:03.210 experiences and strategies. First on the panel is Michael Linky, 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.660 now a general manager at Vision Australia. Michael has forged 0:10:06.660 --> 0:10:09.179 a career in the sighted world, often feeling that he 0:10:09.179 --> 0:10:11.850 is not blind enough and often stuck on a diet 0:10:11.850 --> 0:10:14.670 of markets because that's a menu he knows. Michael, we're 0:10:14.670 --> 0:10:17.610 going to ask you more about that later. And joining 0:10:17.610 --> 0:10:21.810 Michael is Andrew Moffat. Andrew is a mediator and academic 0:10:21.809 --> 0:10:25.050 at Melbourne Law School. Legally blind in the UK, Andrew 0:10:25.050 --> 0:10:27.510 has lived with low vision from birth and only since 0:10:27.510 --> 0:10:30.000 he joined the Board of Vision Australia and now as 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:33.959 chair as he becomes slightly more comfortable talking about it. Welcome, Andrew. 0:10:34.050 --> 0:10:35.880 Yeah, thanks for asking me to join in today. 0:10:35.940 --> 0:10:39.089 We are delighted to welcome back Samantha Hardie as a 0:10:39.090 --> 0:10:42.600 Service Connect officer. She performs a vital role connecting people 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:46.650 with support and services. Samantha is herself flirtation and sometimes 0:10:46.650 --> 0:10:49.920 came new to welcome everyone. Maybe we'll start with a 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.740 question to all of you. Do you think that most 0:10:52.740 --> 0:10:57.060 people understand that there is a spectrum of vision loss? Michael, 0:10:57.059 --> 0:10:57.990 maybe we start with you. 0:10:58.020 --> 0:11:01.290 From my experience, Polly, I'd say no. People think that 0:11:01.300 --> 0:11:03.179 we put braille on something, and anyone who has a 0:11:03.179 --> 0:11:05.880 vision impairment can read braille. You've got that spectrum of 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.309 people who are totally blind. Some do. Some don't read 0:11:08.309 --> 0:11:10.260 braille through to people like the three of us here 0:11:10.260 --> 0:11:13.890 today who have varying different types of eyesight in different 0:11:13.890 --> 0:11:16.860 conditions and different circumstances. I don't think there is a 0:11:16.860 --> 0:11:19.620 broad understanding in the whole community that there is this 0:11:19.620 --> 0:11:22.890 spectrum of people with limited vision all the way up 0:11:22.890 --> 0:11:26.820 to total blindness. So my take on this question really 0:11:26.820 --> 0:11:30.720 is either I look incredibly stupid or people don't understand 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:33.380 this spectrum because the number of times people say, Do 0:11:33.390 --> 0:11:36.510 you know, mate, possibly you should consider getting glasses. I mean, 0:11:36.690 --> 0:11:39.720 I must look really, really thick because it feels to 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.120 me that that would have been probably Plan A. If 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:43.200 it was fixable like that. 0:11:44.270 --> 0:11:47.300 Andrew, how does that make you feel normally cross? 0:11:47.309 --> 0:11:50.069 But I check myself quite quickly because I think actually 0:11:50.550 --> 0:11:52.410 demonstrated that one of the two of the people in 0:11:52.410 --> 0:11:54.480 the discussion is stupid, and it's probably not me. 0:11:54.990 --> 0:11:56.160 Samantha, how about you? 0:11:56.460 --> 0:11:59.370 I would agree with the other two and also just 0:11:59.370 --> 0:12:02.819 say 100 percent. I agree that people don't get that. 0:12:02.820 --> 0:12:05.880 There's a spectrum. It's like you're blind or your sighted 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.460 and there's nothing in between. And I think that's why 0:12:08.460 --> 0:12:11.520 it's so confusing when when you're someone that say might 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.610 be using a cane but has some vision, you might 0:12:14.610 --> 0:12:17.730 be some sort of strange fraud. Like maybe I go 0:12:17.730 --> 0:12:21.030 around using a cane for fun or something. I don't know. 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:25.110 It's very strange, and it's hard to deal with because 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.840 you feel like you either have to explain yourself all 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.530 the time or you somehow you have to pretend that 0:12:31.530 --> 0:12:33.270 maybe you're blind and then you are just to get 0:12:33.270 --> 0:12:33.840 things done. 0:12:33.929 --> 0:12:38.280 Samantha, you mentioned feeling the need sometimes to pretend to 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:42.060 be almost more blind than you are feeling like a 0:12:42.059 --> 0:12:45.240 little bit of a fraud sometimes. Do you think there's 0:12:45.450 --> 0:12:49.620 pressure to conform to an idea of blindness? 0:12:49.650 --> 0:12:52.860 I would say both, depending on the day. Some days 0:12:52.860 --> 0:12:55.680 I really like to defy it, but it does take 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.080 more energy and more effort to do that, and you 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.390 do get more of a push back. So on other 0:13:00.390 --> 0:13:03.689 days when I'm not feeling up for that, it's a 0:13:03.690 --> 0:13:06.930 strange sort of dance to be out in the world 0:13:06.940 --> 0:13:09.929 using your cane. And what happens with me is that 0:13:09.929 --> 0:13:12.780 I can see people's reactions to the cane and they'll 0:13:12.780 --> 0:13:15.960 make faces at me, or some do tears and jump 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:17.190 over the cane or 0:13:17.420 --> 0:13:18.449 or so 0:13:18.460 --> 0:13:19.350 weird, 0:13:19.770 --> 0:13:23.610 weird things. And it's very strange. It's good to point 0:13:23.610 --> 0:13:25.710 out that if someone does break your cane when you're 0:13:25.710 --> 0:13:27.720 out and about and you have really low vision, you 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:29.550 might not be able to get home very easily. 0:13:29.580 --> 0:13:31.890 And we've all seen the meme of people with their 0:13:31.890 --> 0:13:34.350 iPhones in one hand using a cane in the other, 0:13:34.350 --> 0:13:37.020 which is the future that some people have predicted. And 0:13:37.020 --> 0:13:39.420 I notice that a lot. I'm a sometimes cane user 0:13:39.420 --> 0:13:41.580 like Samantha, and people will bump into you on their 0:13:41.580 --> 0:13:43.770 phone and look at you thinking you're the stupid one 0:13:43.770 --> 0:13:45.690 until they see the kind of go or hang on 0:13:45.690 --> 0:13:47.960 a sec. Maybe I'm the stupid one. And yes, you 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:50.219 shouldn't be using your mobile phone as you're walking down 0:13:50.220 --> 0:13:51.090 the street, are you? 0:13:51.110 --> 0:13:52.890 Well, I was up until a couple of months ago 0:13:52.890 --> 0:13:56.280 living in the CBD in Melbourne, very, very busy and 0:13:56.280 --> 0:14:00.689 under non-COVID times and just trying to navigate with people 0:14:00.690 --> 0:14:03.420 on their phones and assuming that the person in front 0:14:03.420 --> 0:14:06.420 of them will get out of their way is really challenging. 0:14:06.420 --> 0:14:08.490 And then often they would sort of look at you 0:14:08.490 --> 0:14:11.030 with surprise when when you bump into them, like, what? 0:14:11.130 --> 0:14:11.790 What are you doing? 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:15.660 And that's a really interesting point. And COVID and the 0:14:15.660 --> 0:14:18.829 whole kind of social or physical distancing as it technically is, 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:21.840 has that brought any specific problems because there's a lot 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.750 of assumptions that you're able to see where people are 0:14:24.750 --> 0:14:27.660 1.5 metres away and you're able to look sort of 0:14:27.660 --> 0:14:31.110 through perspex screens and new things from a distance? Has 0:14:31.110 --> 0:14:33.990 that caused you additional problems over the last 18 months? 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:38.390 It's tricky for me to use the the COVID sign 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.250 in app, I think with the technology that I use. 0:14:41.250 --> 0:14:43.740 So that's been a challenge to explain to people that 0:14:43.740 --> 0:14:45.630 I have to sign in or off, and I have 0:14:45.630 --> 0:14:48.080 to give them my details rather than sign some. Thing, 0:14:48.530 --> 0:14:49.970 so that's been really challenging. 0:14:50.100 --> 0:14:51.979 I look I'll put a vote in for one positive 0:14:51.980 --> 0:14:55.700 aspect of COVID with some as restaurants reopen lots of 0:14:55.700 --> 0:14:58.310 the move to online menus. And that's really good because 0:14:58.310 --> 0:15:01.460 a normal menu, I mean, you know, typical restaurant, you know, 0:15:01.460 --> 0:15:04.550 especially at night time, romantic dim lighting, what have you 0:15:04.550 --> 0:15:07.010 and really small writing. And I'm terrified that I'm going 0:15:07.010 --> 0:15:10.420 to end up inadvertently buying the expensive wine or order 0:15:10.490 --> 0:15:14.060 or the dish with cauliflower on it. But but but 0:15:14.060 --> 0:15:17.030 quite often now because of, you know, sanitation reasons, then 0:15:17.030 --> 0:15:20.030 I can look at the zap, zap the menu up 0:15:20.030 --> 0:15:21.800 and then pinch it up and read it much more 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:24.410 easily on my phone. So there's been some positives in 0:15:24.410 --> 0:15:24.950 that respect. 0:15:25.010 --> 0:15:27.920 Speaking of menus, Michael, you 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:32.420 have said off air that you that sometimes you don't 0:15:32.420 --> 0:15:34.820 want the next generation of kids to be always having 0:15:34.820 --> 0:15:36.710 to go to matches because they don't want to have 0:15:36.710 --> 0:15:38.820 to go across the road and ask what's on the menu? 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:41.630 What held you back from asking? And what would be 0:15:41.630 --> 0:15:44.390 some advice for someone who might want to try out 0:15:44.390 --> 0:15:47.720 something new? Like, I don't know, Nando's roll it. I mean, 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:49.970 there's so many places. I mean, Mac is great, isn't it? 0:15:50.060 --> 0:15:51.859 On July, Mac as I enjoy a bit of bit 0:15:51.860 --> 0:15:54.080 of Nando's these days as well, but more so in 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:56.690 my younger days when I wasn't a cane user and 0:15:56.690 --> 0:15:59.660 the reaction I'd get in a restaurant or a takeaway 0:15:59.660 --> 0:16:01.900 food place when you said, I can't see the menu, 0:16:01.910 --> 0:16:03.320 can you eat it and they look at you as 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:05.990 if you hadn't been to school, you hadn't done reading, 0:16:05.990 --> 0:16:08.420 writing and arithmetic, and you couldn't be bothered reading the 0:16:08.420 --> 0:16:10.650 menu and they had to stand there and read this menu, too. 0:16:10.670 --> 0:16:12.680 And then you'd explain about your eyesight and they look 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:15.250 at you and go with no cane. There's no guide, dog. Well, 0:16:15.290 --> 0:16:17.630 what I started doing is once you learn a menu, 0:16:17.630 --> 0:16:19.970 you think, Well, you know, as a teenager growing up, 0:16:19.970 --> 0:16:21.890 it's just much easier to go into Mac because I 0:16:21.890 --> 0:16:23.830 know it's there. I'm going to be back on Sunday. 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.450 You find yourself just going to those places, you know, 0:16:26.450 --> 0:16:29.600 and routine is is really important. One of the strategies 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:32.720 that I've used over my life is that routine. So 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.840 as negative as that, images of just going to McDonald's 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.420 all the time with limited eyesight. Once you've worked out 0:16:38.420 --> 0:16:41.600 a routine, it becomes very easy and travel is one 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:44.780 of those things or getting from from place to place 0:16:44.780 --> 0:16:46.800 B is one of those things that you can do 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.160 when you can use that. But in that scenario, it's 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.610 very bad. And I don't want kids today being fearful 0:16:52.610 --> 0:16:55.370 because my experience now later in life is that once 0:16:55.370 --> 0:16:58.970 you explain your situation, most people are willing or able 0:16:58.970 --> 0:17:02.150 to obviously able to help. But they're sometimes also embarrassed 0:17:02.150 --> 0:17:04.159 that they didn't notice or they weren't willing to help 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.850 initially and don't be be destined to a lifetime of 0:17:07.850 --> 0:17:09.080 eating Macca's as delicious. 0:17:10.010 --> 0:17:12.530 And this is just for the podcast. But tell me, Michael, 0:17:12.530 --> 0:17:14.900 when you explain to people and they get all embarrassed, 0:17:14.900 --> 0:17:16.639 do you get a free McFlurry out of it? 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.200 Thought I had an experience on an airplane with my car? 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:24.320 And actually it was a flight from Brisbane recently and 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:25.820 the gentleman was sitting in my seat and I had 0:17:25.820 --> 0:17:28.640 the window seat and he looked at me and said, Well, 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.620 you're blind mate, just to sit in the aisle seat. 0:17:30.619 --> 0:17:31.969 And I said, No, no, no, no, I want to 0:17:31.970 --> 0:17:34.070 look out of the window. So I get the odd 0:17:34.070 --> 0:17:36.170 window seat from from time to time. But I've never 0:17:36.170 --> 0:17:38.659 had an free McFlurry from McDonald's. Maybe I need to 0:17:38.660 --> 0:17:39.110 ask one. 0:17:39.140 --> 0:17:41.510 Isn't it strange? You can really baffle people when I'm 0:17:41.510 --> 0:17:43.850 going for a walk around college, presented mail when people 0:17:43.850 --> 0:17:45.590 are like, Oh, where are you going in circles? You 0:17:45.590 --> 0:17:47.210 need help. I said, No, no, no, I'm just taking 0:17:47.210 --> 0:17:50.479 in the scenery. It baffles those who really know what 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:50.990 to do. 0:17:51.980 --> 0:17:53.990 Well, this guy had no idea. He jumped out of 0:17:53.990 --> 0:17:55.880 his seat quick, smart and moved across to the aisle 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:57.500 seat and allowed me to sit in the window seat 0:17:58.040 --> 0:17:59.719 and I progressed to stare out the window. There was 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:01.609 an eight p.m. flight, so it was dark as well. 0:18:02.450 --> 0:18:05.689 I want that little bottle. Well, Michael, I'm going to 0:18:05.690 --> 0:18:09.410 completely undercut your message. Sorry, because I'd love to hear 0:18:09.410 --> 0:18:12.830 Andrew's story where I think you took a more confrontational 0:18:12.830 --> 0:18:15.740 approach in a pub that maybe didn't have quite such 0:18:15.740 --> 0:18:16.879 a positive outcome for you. 0:18:16.910 --> 0:18:19.310 I happened to be in a pub in London. I 0:18:19.310 --> 0:18:22.639 really love English beer, and it's invariably better with the 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.700 right flavour of crisps. But you know, unfortunately that's not 0:18:25.700 --> 0:18:28.459 been standardised. So I'm there and there's lots of crisp packets, 0:18:28.460 --> 0:18:30.919 but they're kind of, you know, behind and I couldn't 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:34.430 see them. And I think probably realistically, this was before smartphones, 0:18:34.430 --> 0:18:36.260 because what I do now is pull my phone out, 0:18:36.260 --> 0:18:38.119 kind of take a sneaky picture, pinch it up and 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:39.830 work it out that way. You know, I did. The 0:18:39.830 --> 0:18:41.540 only other thing I could do, you know, find a 0:18:41.540 --> 0:18:43.520 better place and can I? Can you tell me what 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.189 crisps you have? Any kind of turned around kind of 0:18:46.190 --> 0:18:49.389 waved his arm with an expansive gesture and said, They're there, mate, 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:52.550 are you blind? Ordinarily, you know, I draw it. But 0:18:52.550 --> 0:18:55.370 as it happens, I had fairly recently been signed up 0:18:55.369 --> 0:18:58.159 as a registered blind person by the City of Westminster, 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:00.560 and I had this blind person's card, which I was 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.310 intending to pretend didn't exist. But I thought, No, this 0:19:04.310 --> 0:19:07.090 is I'm standing in front of an open goal here, so. 0:19:07.580 --> 0:19:10.820 So I said, funnily enough, mate, yes, which is exactly 0:19:10.820 --> 0:19:13.219 why I asked you. So I pulled out my card anyway. 0:19:13.220 --> 0:19:16.100 He looked suitably ashamed, as you might expect, and I 0:19:16.100 --> 0:19:18.139 thought this feels like a win. It was a completely 0:19:18.140 --> 0:19:20.869 pyrrhic victory because he was so embarrassed that he couldn't 0:19:20.869 --> 0:19:23.119 make eye contact with me for the rest of the night. 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:25.429 I could have caught fire in front of the bar. 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:28.640 He would have not looked at me so. And not 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:30.919 only did I after that struggle with Chris, but I 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:33.919 couldn't even get my beer refilled, so I've been somewhat 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:38.900 more circumspect since then. I used the cane from time 0:19:38.900 --> 0:19:42.139 to time and it's sporadic use. I strategically use it 0:19:42.140 --> 0:19:45.110 now when I know I'm going to encounter a situation 0:19:45.109 --> 0:19:47.419 that will require me talking to someone yesterday. When I 0:19:47.420 --> 0:19:49.820 was flying from the airport, I left my face mask 0:19:49.820 --> 0:19:51.530 in the cabin and I walked into the airport without 0:19:51.530 --> 0:19:53.270 a face mask and I thought, Oh jeez, I'm going 0:19:53.270 --> 0:19:55.700 to look a bit stupid here. But I grabbed McCain 0:19:55.970 --> 0:19:58.160 and I wandered over to the Qantas counter and said, 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.560 I've lost my face mask and it was a happy cheer. 0:20:00.950 --> 0:20:02.510 Here you go. Do you need any help putting the 0:20:02.510 --> 0:20:04.100 face mask on? And I don't know whether I would 0:20:04.100 --> 0:20:06.860 have got a similar response had I not had a cane. 0:20:06.890 --> 0:20:09.580 We need to use the tools when they're available as in, 0:20:09.590 --> 0:20:11.449 you know, when you go into a shop not necessarily 0:20:11.450 --> 0:20:14.000 asking for for Christmas, but looking for chocolate or breakfast 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:16.700 cereal or whatever it is in a local shop. Getting 0:20:16.700 --> 0:20:18.980 my phone out to read all the labels. But then 0:20:18.980 --> 0:20:21.020 people look at you again because the phone's an inch 0:20:21.020 --> 0:20:22.790 from my nose and the phone is an inch from 0:20:22.790 --> 0:20:25.159 the the packet of food that I'm looking at to 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.530 try to work out what I'm buying. So it's not 0:20:27.530 --> 0:20:30.380 always obvious. And I think with some other disabilities, there 0:20:30.380 --> 0:20:33.070 is that obvious miss of an obvious one is a wheelchair. 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:36.290 It is immediately obvious that the person either can't walk 0:20:36.290 --> 0:20:40.760 or has difficulty walking where blindness and other sensory disabilities. 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:44.030 It's not immediately obvious, and the tools that we use 0:20:44.030 --> 0:20:46.880 are varied to some of those tools a portable summer 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:49.550 in the workplace somewhere at home. There's a range of 0:20:49.550 --> 0:20:52.340 tools that we can use, and they're not always obvious 0:20:52.340 --> 0:20:55.190 to the third party walking on. So and I don't 0:20:55.190 --> 0:20:57.740 think people invariably want to wear a badge or a 0:20:57.740 --> 0:21:00.200 hat saying, Hey, I'm vision impaired or a T-shirt saying 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:02.770 I'm vision impaired. But that may actually be the solution. 0:21:02.780 --> 0:21:06.619 Who knows a whole range of merchandise? Hey, I'm vision impaired. Yeah, 0:21:06.950 --> 0:21:07.160 but 0:21:07.550 --> 0:21:09.950 if I can jump in on this one, that's, you know, 0:21:09.950 --> 0:21:13.280 I'm kind of listening to this and almost feeling slightly guilty. 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:15.710 But I'm going across this panel. I think I've got 0:21:15.710 --> 0:21:18.730 the least bad eyesight mine slightly better than Michael's. Not much, 0:21:18.740 --> 0:21:21.500 and I think my eyesight is probably materially better than Samantha's, 0:21:21.500 --> 0:21:24.169 I would guess. I don't know in terms of acuity numbers, 0:21:24.170 --> 0:21:26.380 but as an observation that seems to be the case, 0:21:26.390 --> 0:21:28.700 I'm feeling guilty because I'm thinking, Well, you know, maybe 0:21:28.700 --> 0:21:31.520 I'm letting down the kind of, you know, community by 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:35.570 not evidently signifying my low vision all the time. But honestly, 0:21:35.690 --> 0:21:38.300 my major strategy is to be selective as to let 0:21:38.300 --> 0:21:40.550 people know I have low vision. And, you know, in 0:21:40.550 --> 0:21:43.160 my day job, very often people hand me, you know, 0:21:43.220 --> 0:21:46.250 sheets of paper printed often and in probably small font 0:21:46.250 --> 0:21:48.980 because they only have an A4 printer. So they hit 0:21:48.980 --> 0:21:52.130 they fit all columns to page button on Excel. And 0:21:52.130 --> 0:21:53.960 it's a question for me then to us, OK, do 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:56.389 I then pull out one of the very many range 0:21:56.390 --> 0:21:58.760 of magnifies that I have in my bag? Or do 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:00.530 I say, Look, just talk me through it, give me the, 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:02.500 you know, give me the key points. And it's a 0:22:02.540 --> 0:22:05.209 it's a it's a decision that I actively make all 0:22:05.210 --> 0:22:07.970 the time. So, you know, to an extent, I think 0:22:07.970 --> 0:22:11.350 I'm quite situational as to whether I disclose or not. 0:22:11.369 --> 0:22:13.340 If I do, I do. And as Michael says, you know, 0:22:13.369 --> 0:22:15.470 if I'm in the supermarket, if I'm reading something, it's 0:22:15.470 --> 0:22:18.230 pretty obvious. But in a professional context, I may not 0:22:18.230 --> 0:22:19.850 want it to be obvious. In which case I may 0:22:19.850 --> 0:22:22.820 find a way of not reading things and, you know, 0:22:22.820 --> 0:22:24.590 finding other ways around them if I can. 0:22:24.650 --> 0:22:27.920 And Samantha, you mentioned that you use a cane. Is 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:29.480 there anything else that really helps you? 0:22:29.630 --> 0:22:32.420 I agree with everything everyone else is saying. I'm sort 0:22:32.420 --> 0:22:36.290 of in two minds that I tend to switch between 0:22:36.290 --> 0:22:38.720 not really wanting to let people know that I have 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:41.510 vision impairment. And it's not wouldn't be clear to anyone 0:22:41.510 --> 0:22:44.630 that was observing me, probably in a public situation to 0:22:44.630 --> 0:22:48.199 using a cane and maybe a mobile phone that's speaking 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:51.109 instructions to me or something, which makes it more obvious. 0:22:51.109 --> 0:22:54.170 And I have this conversation with clients a lot as well, 0:22:54.170 --> 0:22:57.260 where they they'll often opt to take up an ID 0:22:57.410 --> 0:22:59.780 cane to make it easier for them to be out 0:22:59.780 --> 0:23:02.450 in public, for instance, to go into a shopping mall 0:23:02.540 --> 0:23:05.420 or to get public transport. And at that point, for them, 0:23:05.420 --> 0:23:08.240 it may not be that they necessarily need a full 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:11.869 mobility cane, but the cane just helps them to feel 0:23:11.869 --> 0:23:14.990 more safe in the community, with people knowing that their 0:23:14.990 --> 0:23:15.830 vision impaired. 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:19.760 Is there any sense of a hesitancy about accepting an 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:22.879 ID cane? Because it is, I guess, kind of a 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:25.520 physical demonstration of accepting your low vision? 0:23:25.550 --> 0:23:29.600 I think the hazard to the hesitancy is around people's 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:32.450 reaction to the cane once you bring it out, more 0:23:32.450 --> 0:23:35.450 so than people accepting whether or not they need one 0:23:35.450 --> 0:23:39.170 because the cane isn't doesn't really give you very much information. 0:23:39.170 --> 0:23:41.570 So it's really just, as the name implies, to let 0:23:41.570 --> 0:23:44.000 other people know that you have a vision impairment. But 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:47.330 I think people can really react to it quite strongly. 0:23:47.330 --> 0:23:49.850 So it can be a bit confronting when you first 0:23:49.850 --> 0:23:51.649 bring it out and all of a sudden, you know, 0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:53.120 people are reacting. 0:23:53.150 --> 0:23:56.480 That's the thing with the cane. It's intermittent use where 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.899 a directional cane or mobility cane is used all the 0:23:59.900 --> 0:24:02.600 time and I'd cane and I use my I.D. can 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:04.850 win the circumstance permit. So if I go to a 0:24:04.850 --> 0:24:07.160 game of football and there's a big crowd around, I 0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:08.899 don't feel comfortable in the big crowd. I'm not going 0:24:08.900 --> 0:24:10.310 to find the stairs or I'm not going to see 0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:12.979 the barriers in the bollards in your way because there's 0:24:12.980 --> 0:24:14.870 a big crowd there. So I get the cane out. 0:24:14.869 --> 0:24:17.149 So people are aware that I'm the one with the 0:24:17.150 --> 0:24:19.340 vision impairment and they should take it out of my 0:24:19.340 --> 0:24:22.119 way because if I bump into them, it's not my fault. 0:24:22.130 --> 0:24:25.220 It's probably therefore, I think that situational use and then 0:24:25.220 --> 0:24:26.600 people will look at you and go, Well, you had 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:28.370 a cane out 10 minutes ago. Now you don't have 0:24:28.369 --> 0:24:29.869 one out or you're sitting at the football and you're 0:24:29.869 --> 0:24:32.629 watching the football through a pair of binoculars like everybody else. 0:24:32.750 --> 0:24:35.450 You clearly can see, so are you a fraud? And 0:24:35.450 --> 0:24:38.180 I think that that's the issue that that some users have. 0:24:38.180 --> 0:24:40.010 With that I'd cane because it's in and out of 0:24:40.010 --> 0:24:41.209 your bag all the time. 0:24:41.330 --> 0:24:44.179 I often wonder about that if if, say, for instance, 0:24:44.180 --> 0:24:46.940 someone is commuting with me to work and they. See, 0:24:46.950 --> 0:24:49.100 someday say you have my cane and some days I 0:24:49.100 --> 0:24:51.919 don't know whether they're thinking to themselves what is going 0:24:51.920 --> 0:24:52.520 on here. 0:24:53.010 --> 0:24:55.780 Like, she's had a heavy night last night, so you 0:24:55.790 --> 0:24:56.780 shouldn't worry today. 0:24:57.350 --> 0:24:59.459 I thought she was blind and now she's not blind. 0:25:00.140 --> 0:25:04.220 It's a miracle. Are there any other tips and tricks 0:25:04.220 --> 0:25:08.600 you've come up with, either helping people understand your situation 0:25:08.600 --> 0:25:09.800 or slipping past 0:25:09.800 --> 0:25:12.950 it these days? I have an abbreviated version, which would 0:25:12.950 --> 0:25:15.350 be just to say to someone, I have no vision, 0:25:15.470 --> 0:25:17.960 I have some science. But maybe if you could just 0:25:17.960 --> 0:25:20.250 tell me what's on the border, that's really all I need. 0:25:20.300 --> 0:25:22.130 I find if I say something like that, it's sort 0:25:22.130 --> 0:25:24.680 of without going into much more detail than that. It 0:25:24.680 --> 0:25:25.880 narrows it down. 0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:28.669 The Boston airport, I notified that I was visually impaired 0:25:28.670 --> 0:25:30.560 and I needed assistance from gate to gate because I've 0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:33.080 never been to Boston before, and the assistance it turned 0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:35.810 up was a wheelchair and the gentleman said, I'm here 0:25:35.810 --> 0:25:37.730 to assist you. And I looked at him. I said, Mate, 0:25:37.730 --> 0:25:39.469 it's the eyes that don't work. The legs are fine. 0:25:39.480 --> 0:25:42.170 He's just walking up to the gate and I walk 0:25:42.170 --> 0:25:44.720 with him with the wheelchair. So yeah, sometimes when you 0:25:44.720 --> 0:25:46.850 ask for that assistance, people aren't fully aware of what 0:25:46.850 --> 0:25:50.030 assistance you need. I think Samantha's strategy, they're being specific 0:25:50.030 --> 0:25:52.790 about what help you need. I need the time table 0:25:52.790 --> 0:25:54.750 read or I need directions. If you give me a 0:25:54.770 --> 0:25:58.180 left right 50 meters, give me some directions I'm okay 0:25:58.190 --> 0:26:00.740 to to locate that. And if you struggle like me 0:26:00.740 --> 0:26:03.890 to even acknowledge that you have any eyesight issues, if 0:26:03.890 --> 0:26:06.199 you can avoid doing that, I mean, quite often you 0:26:06.200 --> 0:26:07.699 don't need to. So I mean, if you go to 0:26:07.700 --> 0:26:10.639 the restaurant classically, you know, you can talk about the specials, 0:26:10.640 --> 0:26:12.410 you know, you can you suggest a wine that goes 0:26:12.410 --> 0:26:13.850 well with that you never even need to see a 0:26:13.850 --> 0:26:16.609 wine list. You know, you go to museums. I happened 0:26:16.609 --> 0:26:18.920 to be visiting my old university. There's a new museum 0:26:18.920 --> 0:26:20.840 that's just appeared. And, you know, I ask them to 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:23.090 explain to me what the things are. So, you know, 0:26:23.090 --> 0:26:25.340 I didn't need to be able to demonstrate that I 0:26:25.340 --> 0:26:28.000 couldn't read the signs or anything of that nature. So, 0:26:28.010 --> 0:26:30.320 so quite often, you know, if whether you choose to 0:26:30.320 --> 0:26:32.870 disclose that you've got a visual impairment or not. Lots 0:26:32.869 --> 0:26:35.600 of people are very willing to communicate verbally with you. 0:26:35.600 --> 0:26:38.510 If you ask them, actually, then your motivation for doing 0:26:38.510 --> 0:26:40.189 that doesn't ever need to be disclosed. If you don't 0:26:40.190 --> 0:26:42.020 want it to be getting up close to the paintings 0:26:42.020 --> 0:26:45.399 at museums, sometimes sometimes Andrew alert security that you might 0:26:45.530 --> 0:26:47.770 true you might be a thief or you are visually impaired. 0:26:47.780 --> 0:26:50.090 Did that indicate if you're going to try and see 0:26:50.090 --> 0:26:52.060 the plaque suddenly found? 0:26:52.140 --> 0:26:54.619 So that that's that's definitely true. But I do remember 0:26:54.619 --> 0:26:57.770 once going to an impressionist museum in an exhibition in London, 0:26:57.770 --> 0:26:59.210 it was one of those ones where there were a 0:26:59.210 --> 0:27:01.130 million people going every day and you had to get 0:27:01.130 --> 0:27:02.780 tickets and you had a two and a half minute 0:27:02.780 --> 0:27:06.650 window to see a thousand paintings and. And everyone said, 0:27:06.650 --> 0:27:08.270 you know, you can only really appreciate it if you're 0:27:08.270 --> 0:27:10.070 standing really far back. And I thought, Well, I don't 0:27:10.070 --> 0:27:10.699 have that problem. 0:27:11.619 --> 0:27:12.530 Happy viewing. 0:27:14.090 --> 0:27:16.699 I got close to Starry Night in the museum in 0:27:16.700 --> 0:27:19.430 New York once and for security guards came rushing over 0:27:19.430 --> 0:27:22.609 and I waved my kind of my way. Oh, it's okay. Okay, cool. 0:27:23.090 --> 0:27:23.840 Don't breathe on it. 0:27:23.840 --> 0:27:27.710 They say I've been known to pot crowds with my cane. 0:27:28.040 --> 0:27:30.860 They they just scatter. They're terrified of it. I don't 0:27:30.859 --> 0:27:32.540 know what they think is going to happen, but 0:27:33.020 --> 0:27:35.210 apparently they're it's a very terrifying thing 0:27:35.480 --> 0:27:36.500 that can be 0:27:37.700 --> 0:27:40.429 their handy weapon. Sometimes Typekit things really are. 0:27:40.619 --> 0:27:43.100 I don't know how many bus drivers I've whacked around 0:27:43.100 --> 0:27:45.650 the ankles with my cane, but there are few. And 0:27:45.650 --> 0:27:48.470 how many of those times have been accidental test? Not many, 0:27:48.470 --> 0:27:52.520 not many, I have to tell you. So our final 0:27:52.520 --> 0:27:56.330 question will segway us quite nicely into our next episode, 0:27:56.330 --> 0:27:59.330 which is on community and identity? I'll throw this open 0:27:59.330 --> 0:28:01.790 to anyone who wants to jump in first. And the 0:28:01.790 --> 0:28:04.310 question is, how connected do you feel as someone who 0:28:04.310 --> 0:28:07.100 has low vision with the community who's totally blind? 0:28:07.220 --> 0:28:11.359 I feel very connected. I've been my vision, my whole life, 0:28:11.480 --> 0:28:14.090 and I've played blind sports and vision impaired sports. A 0:28:14.090 --> 0:28:16.550 number of my friends today are from that and their 0:28:16.550 --> 0:28:19.340 low vision, as well as totally blind and obviously working 0:28:19.340 --> 0:28:21.770 for a blindness agency such as Vision Australia, who does 0:28:21.770 --> 0:28:24.740 a fantastic job in the community. There is significant connectedness 0:28:24.740 --> 0:28:27.260 with people here. Started 50 per cent of our staff, 0:28:27.260 --> 0:28:30.619 a low vision or totally blind. So I feel connected 0:28:30.619 --> 0:28:32.300 with the community, but I think I need to get 0:28:32.300 --> 0:28:34.010 McCain out more and get off McDonald's. 0:28:36.600 --> 0:28:37.909 Samantha, how about you? 0:28:37.940 --> 0:28:40.640 I think I would answer that by saying I feel 0:28:40.640 --> 0:28:43.100 as connected as I want to be. I don't think 0:28:43.100 --> 0:28:46.940 I completely identify, you know, my whole personality as being 0:28:46.940 --> 0:28:50.330 a vision impaired person. I'm many things, so I think 0:28:50.330 --> 0:28:52.940 I feel as connected as I like to be, which 0:28:52.940 --> 0:28:56.380 is fairly connected. But it's not my entire identity. 0:28:56.390 --> 0:28:57.560 And Andrew, I'm 0:28:57.560 --> 0:28:59.390 going to have to answer this in the hope that 0:28:59.390 --> 0:29:01.850 nobody actually from Vision Australia listens to this. And I 0:29:01.850 --> 0:29:05.450 think that type is probably unrealistic. Given my role as chair. 0:29:05.750 --> 0:29:09.290 I'm connected with the organization, the blindness community, because I 0:29:09.290 --> 0:29:11.660 was asked to take a governance role here. So that 0:29:11.660 --> 0:29:14.030 does give me a connection with the blindness community. But 0:29:14.330 --> 0:29:17.270 as much as as a teenager, I was a client 0:29:17.270 --> 0:29:19.580 of the low vision clinic in Kooyong. So I have, 0:29:19.580 --> 0:29:22.730 in fact, as a teenager, been a client. But for me, yes, 0:29:22.730 --> 0:29:25.370 my eyesight has been what it is stable since birth, 0:29:25.370 --> 0:29:29.390 so I haven't needed, I suppose, to be part of 0:29:29.420 --> 0:29:33.470 the blindness community at all. And I'm very aware in reality, 0:29:33.470 --> 0:29:36.140 and I have this discussion with Vision Australia's deputy chair, 0:29:36.140 --> 0:29:39.440 Bill Jolley, who's a mathematician, let's say, you know, statistically, Bill, 0:29:39.440 --> 0:29:41.840 I'm told I've got 15 per cent eyesight, but 100 0:29:41.840 --> 0:29:44.000 per cent I'm relying on vision. I live in a 0:29:44.000 --> 0:29:46.900 visual world. You know, I look at things now I'm. Questionably, 0:29:46.900 --> 0:29:49.150 I use my hearing, I rely on my hearing more 0:29:49.150 --> 0:29:51.490 than I would if my eyesight were perfect. No doubt 0:29:51.490 --> 0:29:54.400 about that, but for the most part, I feel the 0:29:54.400 --> 0:29:56.890 way I interact with the world around me is much 0:29:56.890 --> 0:30:00.040 closer to the people with 100 percent eyesight than the 0:30:00.040 --> 0:30:02.709 people with zero. I use things to fill in the 0:30:02.710 --> 0:30:05.620 bit that I don't have. But so, so consequently. I mean, 0:30:05.620 --> 0:30:08.320 I'm very engaged. I've got, of course, a huge personal 0:30:08.320 --> 0:30:10.720 mission to help blind people, and I'm in awe of 0:30:10.720 --> 0:30:14.050 how people who can't see anything at all interact with 0:30:14.050 --> 0:30:17.740 the world. But honestly, I don't think that my low 0:30:17.740 --> 0:30:22.300 vision gives me any material insight into the extraordinary way 0:30:22.300 --> 0:30:25.210 people live if they can't see it all. I really don't. 0:30:25.210 --> 0:30:27.670 I'd love to say something different, but I think that's 0:30:27.670 --> 0:30:28.900 my personal truth. 0:30:29.050 --> 0:30:32.680 When we've talked about kind of, I guess, people understanding 0:30:32.680 --> 0:30:35.050 low vision, it's kind of been most of the answers 0:30:35.050 --> 0:30:37.690 have been around from a sighted perspective. Do you think 0:30:37.690 --> 0:30:40.510 people who are completely blind understand what it's like to 0:30:40.510 --> 0:30:41.210 be low vision? 0:30:41.260 --> 0:30:43.450 I don't see how they can. I think I've got 0:30:43.450 --> 0:30:45.550 a number of totally blind friends who have been blind 0:30:45.550 --> 0:30:49.270 since birth and explaining colour to them. I can see color, 0:30:49.270 --> 0:30:51.040 I can see blue, I can see pink. I'm not 0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:54.670 very good at matching colors and my wife helps in 0:30:54.670 --> 0:30:56.020 that regard. I don't think that's got anything to do 0:30:56.020 --> 0:30:57.730 with sight. I think that's a lot to do with taste. 0:30:58.780 --> 0:31:00.720 I'd rather go out and look like Ronald McDonald and 0:31:00.760 --> 0:31:04.510 some days. But yeah, how do you describe color to 0:31:04.510 --> 0:31:07.180 someone who has no sight? As Andrew said, We live 0:31:07.180 --> 0:31:10.330 in a sighted world, so I think that is difficult 0:31:10.420 --> 0:31:12.820 to do. So, yeah, I think it's a very hard 0:31:12.820 --> 0:31:14.680 thing to do and we can't imagine because that's what 0:31:14.680 --> 0:31:16.930 people say. Just close your eyes and you can imagine 0:31:16.930 --> 0:31:18.670 what it's like to be born where you can't because 0:31:18.670 --> 0:31:22.300 you can visualize a tree, a bird, a car, a color, 0:31:22.300 --> 0:31:25.240 a shape with someone who's been blind since birth cannot 0:31:25.240 --> 0:31:28.570 visualize a color or a bird or a shape in 0:31:28.570 --> 0:31:30.790 that other than the tactile experience that they've had that 0:31:30.790 --> 0:31:32.980 they've learned through their hands, but they haven't had the 0:31:32.980 --> 0:31:36.340 advantage of visually seeing that in a three dimensional space. 0:31:36.610 --> 0:31:37.750 Samantha, what about you? 0:31:37.780 --> 0:31:41.010 I'm going to say something maybe slightly different here. Well, 0:31:41.020 --> 0:31:44.770 I think what I'm really interested in around this topic 0:31:44.770 --> 0:31:47.830 is not so much. Always the same question is what 0:31:47.830 --> 0:31:50.860 can't people see and what can't they do? But how 0:31:50.860 --> 0:31:54.430 do people who are blind or vision impaired experience the 0:31:54.430 --> 0:31:57.520 world differently, like sometimes some of the things they experience 0:31:57.520 --> 0:32:00.370 are quite wonderful and quite diverse, and I find that 0:32:00.370 --> 0:32:01.219 really interesting. 0:32:01.330 --> 0:32:06.070 Something interesting that Samantha just said around experiencing the world different. 0:32:06.070 --> 0:32:08.920 I'm a photographer and people look at me sometimes sideways 0:32:08.920 --> 0:32:11.140 when I go. You're a photographer. Hang on. You can't 0:32:11.140 --> 0:32:13.450 see what's going on. And I've got nice camera gear 0:32:13.450 --> 0:32:15.490 and I take photos, but I take those photos because 0:32:15.490 --> 0:32:18.740 I can't experience the world as my sighted counterparts can. 0:32:18.760 --> 0:32:20.830 My wife can stand there and look at the Empire 0:32:20.830 --> 0:32:23.650 State Building, and she can see the detail of the architecture. 0:32:23.650 --> 0:32:25.900 And I love architecture. I'm very interested in architecture. She 0:32:25.900 --> 0:32:27.310 can see all that and I can't see it. It's 0:32:27.310 --> 0:32:29.670 just a blurry object, you know, towering in front of me. 0:32:29.680 --> 0:32:32.140 So I take photos of that and then later on, 0:32:32.140 --> 0:32:35.290 review those photos on a large screen computer and zoom 0:32:35.290 --> 0:32:36.970 them up. And, you know, have a look at them 0:32:36.970 --> 0:32:39.370 and understand the detail. Then I can have a conversation 0:32:39.370 --> 0:32:41.380 with my wife on an equal footing. Did you see 0:32:41.380 --> 0:32:43.690 this carved stone? Did you see that there was a 0:32:43.690 --> 0:32:46.750 plaque here on the fourth floor with a testament to 0:32:46.750 --> 0:32:48.640 this person? Or did you see the window dressing in 0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:50.530 this window? She can see all that in the experience 0:32:50.530 --> 0:32:52.750 that she had during the day. I don't see that too. 0:32:52.780 --> 0:32:55.420 Later on in the afternoon, when I'm reviewing the photos 0:32:55.420 --> 0:32:57.460 or the next day and you know, I went to 0:32:57.490 --> 0:32:59.680 all the rue recently and everybody standing in, wow, look 0:32:59.680 --> 0:33:01.870 at them is wrong. It's fantastic. And I'm going where 0:33:01.870 --> 0:33:03.370 where they is right in front of you. You can 0:33:03.370 --> 0:33:05.470 see this, this massive rock. And it's only when I 0:33:05.470 --> 0:33:08.170 took photos that I started to understand the textures and 0:33:08.170 --> 0:33:11.650 the colors and how wonderful all the room is as 0:33:11.650 --> 0:33:13.990 a as a monolith to have a look at. So 0:33:13.990 --> 0:33:17.170 I think what tested there, what Samantha said is just 0:33:17.560 --> 0:33:19.900 right on the money, right on the money. I'm one 0:33:19.900 --> 0:33:21.970 of the things that I think we need to do 0:33:21.970 --> 0:33:25.300 if we're going to be in a with limited vision 0:33:25.300 --> 0:33:28.810 in the world. We're making kind of educated guesses about 0:33:28.810 --> 0:33:31.570 what something is or who somebody is. You know, that 0:33:31.570 --> 0:33:34.750 person kind of looks like it may well be John 0:33:34.750 --> 0:33:38.170 or Jane, that restaurant that place, what have you. That 0:33:38.170 --> 0:33:40.900 car looks like it's probably a taxi, so I'm going 0:33:40.900 --> 0:33:42.850 to put my arm out whatever it might be. And 0:33:42.850 --> 0:33:45.360 you know what? Quite often those educated guesses are wrong, 0:33:45.370 --> 0:33:50.590 and I'm really sorry, Jane, you. I'm really sorry. You 0:33:50.590 --> 0:33:52.270 look like somebody. I know we do that. I mean, 0:33:52.570 --> 0:33:55.840 that's inevitable. You either sit tight until you've got certainty, 0:33:55.840 --> 0:33:58.750 but you withdraw yourself from the world or you, you 0:33:58.750 --> 0:34:01.870 kind of muddle through. But inevitably you make lots of 0:34:01.870 --> 0:34:04.480 mistakes on the way. And when you've got low vision 0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:06.700 and it's not obvious, I mean, if you blind people or, 0:34:06.910 --> 0:34:09.009 you know, cut you some slack, I suspect. But if 0:34:09.010 --> 0:34:11.680 you don't look like you've got a particular impairment, then 0:34:11.680 --> 0:34:14.670 those mistakes people assume you're an idiot. It takes some time. 0:34:14.680 --> 0:34:16.690 I mean, you need to have a fairly, I think, 0:34:16.690 --> 0:34:19.690 thick skin because you will make lots of those mistakes 0:34:19.690 --> 0:34:22.690 and you look like a bit foolish sometimes. But but 0:34:22.690 --> 0:34:25.660 I think people should acknowledge that because it's either that or, 0:34:25.660 --> 0:34:28.840 as I say, just take yourself onto the sidelines for 0:34:28.840 --> 0:34:29.529 lots of things. 0:34:29.650 --> 0:34:32.440 I think that's a fantastic note to end on. Guys, 0:34:32.440 --> 0:34:35.020 thank you so much to our wonderful panel. 0:34:35.050 --> 0:34:36.710 Thank you. Thanks very much. Thank you. 0:34:36.730 --> 0:34:41.200 Thanks, everyone. This has been a wonderful episode about being quote, 0:34:41.200 --> 0:34:44.739 not blind enough. So many great insights. And remember, this 0:34:44.739 --> 0:34:48.130 podcast can be downloaded. By the Vision Australia website, just 0:34:48.130 --> 0:34:51.730 go to Vision Australia dot org and type and nothing's 0:34:51.730 --> 0:34:54.310 off limits into the search engine you redirected to our 0:34:54.310 --> 0:34:57.010 web page and do subscribe because you don't want to 0:34:57.010 --> 0:34:59.620 miss any episodes, and you can view this episode and 0:34:59.620 --> 0:35:02.080 early ones or if you prefer. Just tune in to 0:35:02.080 --> 0:35:05.590 Vision Australia radio. Next time, we'll be bringing another panel 0:35:05.590 --> 0:35:08.169 of guests together to delve further into the question of 0:35:08.170 --> 0:35:12.219 identity and community and explore the tricky topic of disclosure. 0:35:12.250 --> 0:35:15.399 But meantime, thank you again to our wonderful guests, and 0:35:15.400 --> 0:35:17.920 thank you for joining us for the show where nothing's 0:35:17.920 --> 0:35:18.670 off limits. 0:35:23.840 --> 0:35:27.750 That was nothing's off limits. Made with the support of 0:35:27.750 --> 0:35:32.840 efficient Australia and the NDIS information linkages and capacity building grant. 0:35:33.050 --> 0:35:37.219 Learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting V.J. Radio, 0:35:37.219 --> 0:35:39.980 dot org and access all there is to know about 0:35:39.980 --> 0:35:44.169 our range of client services via our website. Vision Australia 0:35:44.420 --> 0:35:48.440 dot org. We thank everyone who participated in this episode, 0:35:48.560 --> 0:35:52.310 but especially you for listening today. We rely on your support, 0:35:52.489 --> 0:35:55.520 so please share this podcast with just one person today 0:35:55.610 --> 0:35:59.000 and brighten our day or rate us on your preferred 0:35:59.000 --> 0:36:01.549 podcast platform. Bye for now.