S1: From Vision Australia. This is talking vision. And now here's
S1: your host, Sam Coley.
S2: Hello everyone. It's great to be here with you. And
S2: for the next half hour, we talk matters of blindness
S2: and low vision.
S3: With blindness and low vision. You know, it may come
S3: to any of us, so it's something that we need
S3: to embed in as much of society as we can
S3: so that everyone can access as much as they can.
S3: And and a day like that really gives an opportunity
S3: to kind of focus in on that.
S2: Welcome to this special episode of Talking Vision. We're celebrating
S2: Global Accessibility Awareness Day on the show this week, with
S2: two interviews with people who have had a heavy involvement
S2: in the accessibility sector, starting off with Doctor Scott Hollier,
S2: the founder and CEO for the Center of Accessibility Australia,
S2: and then followed by Polly Goodwin, a favorite of ours
S2: on Talking Vision. She's recently come back from Japan, where
S2: she's been presenting a workshop on audio description in gaming,
S2: so make sure to stick around for both of those.
S2: They're coming up right now. I hope you enjoy this
S2: special Global Accessibility Awareness Day episode of Talking Vision. I
S2: started the conversation with Scott by asking him to introduce
S2: himself and the center for accessibility.
S4: No worries. So the Center of Accessibility Australia was founded
S4: in 2018. We really wanted to advocate and promote the
S4: importance of digital access. So there's three main parts to
S4: what we do. One is that we provide direct support
S4: to people with disability, their families and carers in overcoming
S4: digital access issues. So we have a free help desk service.
S4: So if people want to know how to get, you know,
S4: for example, a screen reader set up on their computer
S4: or device of choice, we've got free resources online and
S4: a free help desk that people can contact us to
S4: help them with that. The second part of what we
S4: do is around advocacy. So we run the Australian Access
S4: Awards every two years to celebrate organisations doing good work
S4: in this space. And the third part is our more
S4: commercial services. So we have audits and training to support
S4: organisations in making their content accessible. And in terms of
S4: me personally, I'm the CEO of centre for Accessibility Australia.
S4: We're a few hats. Um, I also have an academic hat.
S4: I teach a course around making content accessible and also
S4: wear a hat with W3C, the organisation that produces web
S4: accessibility standards. And I'm legally blind. So, um, both professionally
S4: and personally, I can certainly relate to the importance of
S4: digital access. And, um, we have 13 staff, uh, nine
S4: of which have a disability in our organisation. So lots
S4: of great lived experience to draw on.
S2: It's great to have these sort of conversations with, you know,
S2: other people with lived experience to sort of see their
S2: perspectives as well, because, of course, blindness and low vision
S2: is by no means a monolith. So there are a
S2: lot of very diverse perspectives to contribute to an area
S2: such as accessibility. And of course, we are celebrating Global
S2: Accessibility Awareness Day on the 16th of May. So as
S2: somebody with lived experience and somebody so heavily involved in
S2: the accessibility sector, what does a day such as Global
S2: Accessibility Awareness Day mean to you?
S4: It means a lot, both personally and professionally. I think
S4: the importance of a day like this is it does
S4: give everyone and every organization, big or small, a chance
S4: to say this is something that's really important and it's
S4: something that gives us all a chance to say, here
S4: are resources, here are the things we can do. This
S4: is the difference we can make. And whether it's big
S4: companies like Apple or Microsoft, which often put out new
S4: products and releases on the day through to organisations like us,
S4: we're launching a series of videos around the business case
S4: of digital access and sharing really important tips and tricks. Um,
S4: we've also been funded by the Australian Communications Consumer Action
S4: Network to look at how to cancel a phone plan effectively.
S4: So if some of your listeners are wondering if I
S4: sign up to this phone plan, am I actually going
S4: to be able to have an accessible way to get
S4: out of it? And we're launching a resource thanks to
S4: that Acon funding on Global Accessibility Awareness Day to provide
S4: that information. So, you know, there's just really good opportunities
S4: on a day like this to spread the word about
S4: what is possible and how we can best make a difference.
S2: Some people may be looking forward to the Round Table
S2: conference that will be taking place a few days after
S2: Global Accessibility Awareness Day, the Round Table conference in Perth
S2: where the centre for accessibility is based. And of course,
S2: you'll be presenting at that conference in regards to artificial
S2: intelligence specifically and its role within the accessibility sector. So
S2: I'm really keen to pick your brain about your thoughts
S2: on AI and what it can offer.
S4: Oh, it's a fantastic question. And, uh, it is a
S4: great privilege to have the chance to speak at Round
S4: Table and share a bit of information on this. So
S4: one of the hats I wear with W3C, I'm part
S4: of a task force called the Research Questions Task Force.
S4: And it's like an advance scouting party where we look
S4: at emerging technologies and try to provide international guidance on it.
S4: And so some of the things that I'll be looking
S4: at is connected to that work. I think the exciting
S4: thing about AI from a disability standpoint is that we
S4: can get some really great, fun, positive things that help
S4: our independence. There are some great accessibility implications, but also, unfortunately,
S4: there are some privacy and security things that can block
S4: some of those benefits. So to start with the fun things,
S4: I mean, one of the great things that has come
S4: to my phone recently is the, uh, guided frame selfie camera.
S4: So the fact that with my Google Pixel phone, I
S4: can hold up my phone, it will tell me if
S4: I've lined things up properly and then it will take
S4: a photo of a selfie. So this is AI. In
S4: a really simple, practical form. The AI figures out the image,
S4: it figures out where my face is in it, and
S4: it helps me to be able to take that selfie.
S4: So that's from a fun, independent standpoint. That's a great feature.
S4: But when we look further abroad, we need to consider
S4: our everyday experiences in terms of finding information online. So,
S4: for example, how effective is auto generated alt text on
S4: web pages? Are there any browsers that can actually do
S4: that on the fly, and if so, how good are they?
S4: And all the way through to testing for accessibility online.
S4: So we have automated testing. Tools that can check if
S4: things are accessible, but do they really check much? Currently,
S4: the tools can only check about 40% of the International
S4: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines standard. But now that we're really
S4: seeing huge evolution in AI, are these tools going to improve?
S4: So I think the range of looking at what, from
S4: a practical sense is there for us in AI, what
S4: can be done in terms of improving our everyday experiences
S4: as we navigate technology, and also in testing and evaluation?
S4: How is that going? So these are some of the
S4: topics that we'll be exploring at roundtable.
S2: And Scott, it's really important to strike that fine balance
S2: isn't it, with giving the app or the the phone
S2: or the device your information so that it can fine
S2: tune and streamline the information that it does give you
S2: in regards to things like, you know, getting around on
S2: public transport, I know there's a few apps that are
S2: launching there that they want to know your location. They
S2: want to know where you're going, how many times a
S2: week you're going to that certain location. You know, some
S2: people may be a bit wary about giving away that information,
S2: but then it's also striking that balance of, okay, but
S2: if you give the app that information, it can help
S2: you get from point A to B if you don't
S2: have the vision, perhaps to get around on public transport,
S2: see street signs, or use a map in some capacity.
S2: Because sometimes those map apps, they're not as accessible as
S2: they should be. So what's your thoughts on that? Well, you're.
S4: Absolutely right, Sam. I think those are really important aspects
S4: as we join together a whole series of technologies around navigation,
S4: and we've got all the tech that's been with us
S4: for some time, but then we do have AI that
S4: can provide those additional supports. So in terms of making
S4: sure we do have the information we need in real time,
S4: I can do some assessments around other communication technologies and
S4: how to join all that together, and also making our
S4: devices more conversational. I mean, we've seen recent releases like
S4: The Humane Pin and the Rabbit one, which have had
S4: very mixed reviews around their ability to have AI on
S4: the go, which might be able to help us with
S4: some of these things. But even though the technology is
S4: very fledgling, I think it does show us that there
S4: is interest in having something AI dedicated that can really
S4: join all these things together, where we can be very
S4: conversational in how we do things, and could open the
S4: door to just significantly simplify some of these processes. So
S4: I'm excited about the future. I do think that AI
S4: has great opportunities, but as we've just discussed, there is
S4: privacy concerns, there are security concerns, and sometimes we've seen
S4: a step forward. So for example, a not vision related
S4: accessibility benefit. Recently it has been people who are nonverbal,
S4: who have been able to use a recorded voice or
S4: sample their own voice before they lose it and can
S4: now make phone calls with an iPhone. And that's a
S4: huge step forward. And that's very exciting. But we're now
S4: seeing a banking software and others on automated phone lines
S4: blocking that opportunity because they detect an artificial voice and
S4: have decided it's a scam. So this happens a lot.
S4: We see a step forward for people with disability thanks
S4: to AI, but then we see a step back because
S4: it's assumed that there is some other purpose for what's
S4: going on. And so this is, I think, always going
S4: to be the balance that we have to have, you know,
S4: how can we get the AI in the hands of
S4: people with disability to make sure that it's we have
S4: the benefits of it, that it really does help us,
S4: that we can have that conversational interaction, but then we
S4: don't want to block it because it's seen as there
S4: could be some ulterior motive. So it's a bit of
S4: a cat and mouse at the moment, but I'm broadly
S4: excited about where it could go, for sure.
S2: And that does open up, of course, a really wide
S2: advocacy and awareness conversation that should be had and is
S2: very important in amongst all of these discussions with artificial
S2: intelligence and the accessibility benefits it can provide. So how
S2: do you perceive that's going at the moment? What are
S2: things like from an advocacy and awareness standpoint in regards
S2: to those things, like the conversations that need to be
S2: had with banks and other places like that? It's a great.
S4: Question. I think one of the biggest challenges is representing
S4: the arguments for digital access in the context of the organization.
S4: So I think most of us who have lived experience
S4: want digital access to happen because it supports our independence,
S4: and it just seems like it's the right thing to do.
S4: You know, we live in a global society. The internet's
S4: a global medium. It just makes sense. We want to
S4: have access to that and the independence associated with that.
S4: But for a bank, they will look at things in
S4: relation to a business case. So how can we argue
S4: in other terms as well. And so things like the
S4: spending power of people with disability is about $9 trillion.
S4: And so that's something that the bank goes oh $9 trillion.
S4: You know, we could be missing out on a lot
S4: of customers. We could you know, if we're not doing
S4: the right thing, then maybe there's some some impacts to
S4: our bottom line. And whilst, you know, I don't want
S4: to suggest that that's the only motivation for a bank, but,
S4: you know, in terms of framing accessibility in those arguments,
S4: you know, making sure that you have effective branding, we
S4: know that when we get accessibility right, it doesn't just
S4: help people. With disability. It helps everyone. I had an
S4: example just recently where I was giving a workshop presentation
S4: and the audio completely died, but because our videos that
S4: we were showing had captions, people could still view the
S4: screen and keep up with that. So it did have
S4: some impacts in terms of people who are blind or
S4: low vision in the room. But it did also highlight
S4: the fact that because we had accessibility features enabled, it
S4: did provide that benefit. So we see time and time
S4: again that when we do make things accessible, it doesn't
S4: just help people with lived experience, but it also helps everyone.
S4: And so arguing the branding aspects, arguing the bottom line
S4: aspects and also, you know, importantly arguing that it is
S4: a really important thing to do. And the more we
S4: bundle these arguments together, the better it gets. And you know,
S4: a day like Global Accessibility Awareness Day is a great
S4: tool to bring those things together.
S2: And if people would like to know a little bit
S2: more about your center for Accessibility Australia and perhaps get
S2: in touch, what's the best way for people to do that?
S4: Yeah. Um, we have a great website at accessibility.org. So
S4: that's where we have our help desk section. So if
S4: you are trying to get your accessibility features turned on
S4: your device of choice, or you're not sure what features
S4: are available to support people with different disabilities such as vision,
S4: then there is a great resource, step by step resource there.
S4: And we also have that free help desk that people
S4: are welcome to contact us on and we can provide
S4: some support there. Also, if you are having conversations with
S4: people around how to make content accessible in our projects menu,
S4: we have a section called Understanding Accessibility and we have
S4: a six part resource there free resource to walk people
S4: through how they can make their content accessible, going through
S4: the Web Content Accessibility guidelines. So there's a great free
S4: resource there as well. But ultimately, if we can be
S4: of help, please just reach out and contact us. So
S4: our main email address is admin at accessibility Orgo. So
S4: admin accessibility Orgo. And we just love to hear from you.
S4: So um please feel free to get in touch.
S2: Okay. Fantastic. I've been speaking today with Doctor Scott Hollier,
S2: founder and CEO of the center for Accessibility Australia, here
S2: to chat to me all about Global Accessibility Awareness Day,
S2: but also wide ranging conversations around artificial intelligence and its
S2: potential benefits and drawbacks. I'm Sam Kelly and you're listening
S2: to Talking Vision on Vision Australia Radio, associated stations of
S2: the Reading Radio Network, and the Community Radio Network. I
S2: hope you enjoyed that conversation there with Doctor Scott Hollier
S2: from the centre for accessibility. If you missed any part
S2: of that conversation with Scott or you'd love to listen
S2: to it again, talking vision is available on the Vision
S2: Australia Radio website at VA radio.org. That's VA radio.org. You
S2: can also find the program on the podcast app of
S2: your choice or through the Vision Australia library. And now
S2: coming up next we're hear from audio description specialist Polly Goodwin.
S2: Polly's recently been in Japan presenting an interactive talk and
S2: workshop on audio description in gaming, and I started the
S2: conversation with Polly by asking about the workshop and how
S2: it went.
S3: Yes, that's right. So the Audio Engineering Society has put
S3: on a conference focusing on audio for games, and I've
S3: been working on a project with Doctor Xiaokangzhang, who's based
S3: in the UK, and she's run a project called Adi
S3: for games. So looking at can audio description make video
S3: games accessible. So she pulled me in to do some
S3: audio description on part of her project, and we thought
S3: that this particular conference would be a really exciting space
S3: to kind of introduce the concept to the sort of
S3: people who might be able to implement audio description in games,
S3: i.e the people who are making sound for games. So
S3: we ran a workshop and basically we talked a bit
S3: about the project and then did a simulation of the
S3: experiment that we ran with our participants who are blind
S3: or have low vision, and we simulated this by having
S3: sighted participants able to see the game and the non-sighted participants.
S3: We rendered them non sighted by having their backs to
S3: the screen. So we tried to kind of copy it
S3: and we had really similar results.
S2: Oh wow. Okay, so um, tell us a bit about
S2: those results. What were the most interesting findings from the workshop?
S3: The huge thing for me, I think so the idea
S3: Zhongjiang has been working on different steps of where and
S3: how audio description could happen. And the step I worked
S3: on with her was let's have an audio describer move
S3: gameplay along so they've got control of the joystick or
S3: the mouse and their audio describing what they're seeing. And
S3: players who are blind or have low vision are giving
S3: instructions as to how they want the game to proceed.
S3: So started off, I was super prepared. I had an
S3: audio introduction for them to tell them everything, and I
S3: was very much in my professional audio describer persona, so
S3: I wanted to remain objective. I wanted to not bring
S3: my own perspectives in, not be biased one way or
S3: the other, or influence the game and all of the experiments.
S3: It became really clear that that's not at all the
S3: vibe that our players wanted. So it evolved really quickly
S3: into quite a different interaction. So I was part of
S3: the game, so we were all playing together and we've
S3: called this co playing the idea that the describer. Yes,
S3: has that slightly additional role of describing what's happening visually.
S3: But we're all as a team making decisions based on
S3: that information about how we want to go forward. So
S3: it was a lot more fun for me because I
S3: got to be quite opinionated. But it was yeah, I mean,
S3: a real change of direction for me. I'm very used
S3: to having everything organized, set up and a script to
S3: work from, literally. So this was a lot more free style.
S2: And there were three different components to the workshop. So
S2: for our listeners out there, those three components, they were
S2: recorded audio description of a game playing video. And then
S2: you had live audio description of a game streaming session
S2: and live audio description of an audio described playing the game.
S2: So were there any sort of observations between those three
S2: that changed, and what sort of stage did people, I guess,
S2: respond to the best, or you got the most sort
S2: of interaction from?
S3: I think really it is that last one. So having
S3: that audio describer, playing the game whilst audio describing, and
S3: it is because of exactly what you said, it's because
S3: that achieved an interaction that those earlier experiments where we
S3: had in the first instance, somebody recording somebody playing a
S3: game and then describing that. So it's really like kind
S3: of a watch a thon type model, which are also
S3: really enjoyable. But there's nothing that you as a participant
S3: can do to influence what's happening in the game. And
S3: the second that someone describing it live but still no
S3: opportunity for a player. To interact. So it was really
S3: that third one that kind of hit the sweet spot
S3: where we were looking at. Yeah, we're all talking together.
S3: We're all in this space. What should we do with
S3: our game? How should we progress it?
S2: What do you see as the future for these sort
S2: of things in terms of audio description for gaming, where
S2: do you see that heading in the future and what
S2: sort of needs to happen to provide the audio description
S2: that players who are blind or have low vision do require?
S3: I think there's three parts that can and should all
S3: happen simultaneously. So the first one sits very much with
S3: the game developers, and there's a lot they can already
S3: do to make games accessible using audio description and other tools.
S3: So even things like making sure text to speech is
S3: working with your heads up menu, giving options around font
S3: size and contrast. And there are games starting to do this,
S3: so that's one. The second one is one of the
S3: outputs of the ad for games project is going to
S3: be some guidelines aimed at non-professional audio describers, so that
S3: they feel comfortable and able to with their friends who
S3: are blind or low vision or play together. Just give
S3: them basic prompts about you know, how you can help
S3: the audio describe something, because the model where you have
S3: a professional describer coming in to play a video game
S3: with a group of people, that's great and that's fun,
S3: but it involves a lot of setup and it's costly,
S3: all of those things. So how do we make it
S3: so that everyone and anyone can do it? And then
S3: the third one is the step that the ad for
S3: games project is moving on to next, which is how
S3: can we embed audio description in the hardware and software
S3: of the game? And for me, this was really fascinating
S3: going to the AAS conference, because there were experts talking
S3: about the amazing things they're doing about making 3D audio,
S3: embedding audio cues and tags within a game. And they
S3: were talking about it from an immersion perspective, but a
S3: lot of the solutions and the paths that were going
S3: down could really easily also be hijacked for audio description.
S3: So you can tag various things that you see or
S3: you interact with in a game with a piece of
S3: audio description. And I think that's a really interesting way
S3: of embedding ad in a game, so that as a player,
S3: you can play whenever you like. You don't have to
S3: plan it, prepare for it. You don't need another person.
S3: It's completely on your terms. So I think that that's
S3: another really exciting direction that we should be exploring.
S2: And it's really interesting playing games like, um, breath of
S2: the wild, which came out in 2017. Polly, when you're
S2: fighting a boss, they have a character who says things like, oh,
S2: you know, watch out for his spear. It's got a
S2: really long reach or, you know, oh, he's moved up
S2: to the ceiling now that you've got him down to
S2: half health or, you know, oh, the, you know, the
S2: room is filling up with water. Look out for that.
S2: You'll have to jump onto a platform. So it's interesting
S2: that those Triple-A games sort of have an element of
S2: audio description, but it's also not really describing what's happening
S2: in real time. It's sort of just giving you input
S2: into like a change that's happened in the boss fight,
S2: but not really in live time. So what do you
S2: see with those big games like the Triple-A releases? What
S2: have been your observations from them in terms of which
S2: ones have been quite accessible or quite well received in
S2: that regard?
S3: Well, there's been some fantastic examples. I think Assassin's Creed
S3: Valhalla is one that often comes quite high up on
S3: the list. That's got something really interesting where they've brought
S3: in a feature called Odin's Sight, which kind of gives
S3: you a scanning ability where you can kind of tag
S3: enemies that are nearby using either audio or visual clues.
S3: So that's similar to what you were talking about, the
S3: idea that you embed something within the game. So it's
S3: not this kind of quote unquote disability add on, but
S3: part of the gaming experience. And there are lots of
S3: different players who might want to activate that. It's not
S3: just about if you can or can't see. So that's
S3: a great one. The Vale Shadow of the Crown, that
S3: was created in conjunction with the Canadian National Institute for
S3: the Blind and that's really interesting. That's a really great
S3: example of representation as well, because the main character is
S3: a girl who's blind. So you're really kind of embracing
S3: that environment. And then there's kind of people who've dipped
S3: their toes in it. So there's a game called perception,
S3: which has an interesting concept. It doesn't quite transfer to
S3: being fully accessible because it's an indie outfit producing it.
S3: So they just didn't have the budget. But in that game,
S3: we have a character who is also blind, and she
S3: navigates her way around the game using echolocation. So she
S3: has to tap her cane, and that's how information comes
S3: to her. So I think the thing I really wanted
S3: to get across to the conference group was that it
S3: doesn't have to be a box ticking burden making your
S3: game accessible, but actually it's a really great opportunity to
S3: think about, okay, what's the way that we can use audio?
S3: How can we see this as a creative spark rather
S3: than a kind of creative cage, I suppose. And the
S3: responses were great. People were really enthused about what this might.
S3: Mean and just a different way of thinking about it.
S2: And probably one other reason we are catching up today
S2: is Global Accessibility Awareness Day, which is coming up on
S2: the 16th of May. So that ties quite nicely into
S2: quite a few discussions we've already been having in regards
S2: to how we can make gaming more accessible for people
S2: out there who are blind or have low vision. So
S2: as somebody in the audio description sector for so long,
S2: what does a day such as Global Accessibility Awareness Day
S2: mean for you?
S3: Oh, I think it's absolutely fantastic. I mean, for me,
S3: I think every day should be. But it's great to
S3: take a day where you've got an opportunity to really
S3: showcase both why it's important and what it involves. I
S3: think every group of people I've spoken to who are
S3: not in the disability sector or don't have family, or
S3: their own lived experience of blindness or low vision, they're
S3: really fascinated and interested to learn what they can do,
S3: how they can support making things more accessible, and quite often,
S3: how it can also benefit them as well. The great
S3: thing about audio description is I here have sighted people
S3: all the time telling me that, you know, they have
S3: it on in the background because it means they can multitask.
S3: So it's this kind of bringing it into everyone's awareness
S3: that this is this is something for all of us,
S3: and particularly, I think with the blindness and low vision,
S3: you know, we're all we're all it may come to
S3: any of us. So it's something that we need to
S3: embed in as much of society as we can so
S3: that everyone can access as much as they can. And
S3: and a day like that really gives an opportunity to
S3: kind of focus in on that. And so it's great
S3: that you're doing that. Sam.
S2: It's great to have you to chat all about it.
S2: You know, we could chat for hours about games, Polly.
S2: We could. Absolutely. It's amazing. But that's all the time
S2: we have for now. But just to wrap up, are
S2: there ways that people can follow the progress of the project?
S2: If they'd like to keep tabs on what's happening next
S2: or what else is happening in the world of audio description?
S2: In gaming in particular, is there anywhere that those listeners
S2: can go if they'd love to find out more or,
S2: you know, keep tabs on what's happening?
S3: Absolutely. So the website has shifted because the project's shifted
S3: its base from one university to another. So probably the
S3: best way would be to either find me on LinkedIn
S3: and connect with me. I'm Polly Goodwin, or just get
S3: in touch with you, Sam, and you can pass them
S3: on to me, and I'll make sure that they've got
S3: an update on what's going on. And if people want
S3: to get involved as well, that would be fantastic.
S2: Perfect. I've been speaking today with Polly Goodwin, involved in
S2: the ad for Games Project alongside Xiaochun Zhang, a project
S2: using audio description to create accessible and immersive gameplay experiences.
S2: And that's all the time we have for today. You've
S2: been listening to Talking Vision. Talking vision is a Vision
S2: Australia radio production. Thanks to all involved with putting the
S2: show together every week. And remember, we love hearing from you.
S2: So please get in touch any time on our email
S2: at Talking Vision. At Vision australia.org. That's talking vision all
S2: one word at Vision australia.org. But until next week it's
S2: Sam Colly saying bye for now.
S1: You can contact Vision Australia by phoning us any time
S1: during business hours on one 308 4746. That's one 308
S1: 474106 or by visiting Vision Australia. Org that's Vision australia.org.