WEBVTT - Talking Vision 728 Week Beginning 13th of May 2024 0:00:13.168 --> 0:00:18.958 From Vision Australia. This is talking vision. And now here's 0:00:18.958 --> 0:00:20.938 your host, Sam Coley. 0:00:23.478 --> 0:00:26.628 Hello everyone. It's great to be here with you. And 0:00:26.628 --> 0:00:29.598 for the next half hour, we talk matters of blindness 0:00:29.598 --> 0:00:30.678 and low vision. 0:00:30.678 --> 0:00:33.318 With blindness and low vision. You know, it may come 0:00:33.318 --> 0:00:35.508 to any of us, so it's something that we need 0:00:35.508 --> 0:00:38.778 to embed in as much of society as we can 0:00:38.778 --> 0:00:41.658 so that everyone can access as much as they can. 0:00:41.658 --> 0:00:44.568 And and a day like that really gives an opportunity 0:00:44.568 --> 0:00:46.308 to kind of focus in on that. 0:00:46.338 --> 0:00:51.678 Welcome to this special episode of Talking Vision. We're celebrating 0:00:51.678 --> 0:00:56.028 Global Accessibility Awareness Day on the show this week, with 0:00:56.028 --> 0:01:00.588 two interviews with people who have had a heavy involvement 0:01:00.588 --> 0:01:05.988 in the accessibility sector, starting off with Doctor Scott Hollier, 0:01:06.018 --> 0:01:10.908 the founder and CEO for the Center of Accessibility Australia, 0:01:10.908 --> 0:01:15.108 and then followed by Polly Goodwin, a favorite of ours 0:01:15.108 --> 0:01:19.698 on Talking Vision. She's recently come back from Japan, where 0:01:19.698 --> 0:01:24.978 she's been presenting a workshop on audio description in gaming, 0:01:24.978 --> 0:01:28.248 so make sure to stick around for both of those. 0:01:28.248 --> 0:01:31.758 They're coming up right now. I hope you enjoy this 0:01:31.758 --> 0:01:41.458 special Global Accessibility Awareness Day episode of Talking Vision. I 0:01:41.458 --> 0:01:45.628 started the conversation with Scott by asking him to introduce 0:01:45.628 --> 0:01:48.868 himself and the center for accessibility. 0:01:48.898 --> 0:01:52.078 No worries. So the Center of Accessibility Australia was founded 0:01:52.078 --> 0:01:55.228 in 2018. We really wanted to advocate and promote the 0:01:55.228 --> 0:01:58.048 importance of digital access. So there's three main parts to 0:01:58.048 --> 0:02:00.718 what we do. One is that we provide direct support 0:02:00.718 --> 0:02:03.178 to people with disability, their families and carers in overcoming 0:02:03.178 --> 0:02:06.328 digital access issues. So we have a free help desk service. 0:02:06.328 --> 0:02:08.488 So if people want to know how to get, you know, 0:02:08.488 --> 0:02:11.368 for example, a screen reader set up on their computer 0:02:11.368 --> 0:02:13.858 or device of choice, we've got free resources online and 0:02:13.858 --> 0:02:16.108 a free help desk that people can contact us to 0:02:16.108 --> 0:02:18.358 help them with that. The second part of what we 0:02:18.358 --> 0:02:21.028 do is around advocacy. So we run the Australian Access 0:02:21.028 --> 0:02:24.028 Awards every two years to celebrate organisations doing good work 0:02:24.028 --> 0:02:26.668 in this space. And the third part is our more 0:02:26.668 --> 0:02:29.518 commercial services. So we have audits and training to support 0:02:29.518 --> 0:02:33.298 organisations in making their content accessible. And in terms of 0:02:33.298 --> 0:02:36.478 me personally, I'm the CEO of centre for Accessibility Australia. 0:02:36.628 --> 0:02:39.778 We're a few hats. Um, I also have an academic hat. 0:02:39.778 --> 0:02:43.168 I teach a course around making content accessible and also 0:02:43.168 --> 0:02:46.678 wear a hat with W3C, the organisation that produces web 0:02:46.678 --> 0:02:50.578 accessibility standards. And I'm legally blind. So, um, both professionally 0:02:50.578 --> 0:02:53.758 and personally, I can certainly relate to the importance of 0:02:53.758 --> 0:02:56.938 digital access. And, um, we have 13 staff, uh, nine 0:02:56.938 --> 0:02:59.758 of which have a disability in our organisation. So lots 0:02:59.758 --> 0:03:01.498 of great lived experience to draw on. 0:03:01.828 --> 0:03:05.488 It's great to have these sort of conversations with, you know, 0:03:05.488 --> 0:03:08.788 other people with lived experience to sort of see their 0:03:08.788 --> 0:03:12.268 perspectives as well, because, of course, blindness and low vision 0:03:12.268 --> 0:03:15.298 is by no means a monolith. So there are a 0:03:15.298 --> 0:03:20.218 lot of very diverse perspectives to contribute to an area 0:03:20.218 --> 0:03:25.018 such as accessibility. And of course, we are celebrating Global 0:03:25.018 --> 0:03:30.298 Accessibility Awareness Day on the 16th of May. So as 0:03:30.298 --> 0:03:35.098 somebody with lived experience and somebody so heavily involved in 0:03:35.098 --> 0:03:38.878 the accessibility sector, what does a day such as Global 0:03:38.878 --> 0:03:41.368 Accessibility Awareness Day mean to you? 0:03:41.368 --> 0:03:44.068 It means a lot, both personally and professionally. I think 0:03:44.068 --> 0:03:45.778 the importance of a day like this is it does 0:03:45.778 --> 0:03:49.138 give everyone and every organization, big or small, a chance 0:03:49.138 --> 0:03:52.468 to say this is something that's really important and it's 0:03:52.468 --> 0:03:55.288 something that gives us all a chance to say, here 0:03:55.288 --> 0:03:57.898 are resources, here are the things we can do. This 0:03:57.898 --> 0:03:59.818 is the difference we can make. And whether it's big 0:03:59.818 --> 0:04:02.788 companies like Apple or Microsoft, which often put out new 0:04:02.788 --> 0:04:05.878 products and releases on the day through to organisations like us, 0:04:05.878 --> 0:04:09.508 we're launching a series of videos around the business case 0:04:09.508 --> 0:04:13.078 of digital access and sharing really important tips and tricks. Um, 0:04:13.078 --> 0:04:16.438 we've also been funded by the Australian Communications Consumer Action 0:04:16.438 --> 0:04:19.768 Network to look at how to cancel a phone plan effectively. 0:04:19.768 --> 0:04:21.838 So if some of your listeners are wondering if I 0:04:21.868 --> 0:04:23.758 sign up to this phone plan, am I actually going 0:04:23.758 --> 0:04:25.198 to be able to have an accessible way to get 0:04:25.198 --> 0:04:27.448 out of it? And we're launching a resource thanks to 0:04:27.448 --> 0:04:30.898 that Acon funding on Global Accessibility Awareness Day to provide 0:04:30.898 --> 0:04:34.798 that information. So, you know, there's just really good opportunities 0:04:34.798 --> 0:04:37.378 on a day like this to spread the word about 0:04:37.378 --> 0:04:41.248 what is possible and how we can best make a difference. 0:04:41.248 --> 0:04:45.898 Some people may be looking forward to the Round Table 0:04:45.898 --> 0:04:49.318 conference that will be taking place a few days after 0:04:49.318 --> 0:04:54.358 Global Accessibility Awareness Day, the Round Table conference in Perth 0:04:54.358 --> 0:04:58.738 where the centre for accessibility is based. And of course, 0:04:58.738 --> 0:05:02.848 you'll be presenting at that conference in regards to artificial 0:05:02.848 --> 0:05:09.058 intelligence specifically and its role within the accessibility sector. So 0:05:09.058 --> 0:05:12.628 I'm really keen to pick your brain about your thoughts 0:05:12.628 --> 0:05:15.658 on AI and what it can offer. 0:05:15.688 --> 0:05:18.478 Oh, it's a fantastic question. And, uh, it is a 0:05:18.478 --> 0:05:20.668 great privilege to have the chance to speak at Round 0:05:20.668 --> 0:05:22.768 Table and share a bit of information on this. So 0:05:22.768 --> 0:05:25.498 one of the hats I wear with W3C, I'm part 0:05:25.498 --> 0:05:28.138 of a task force called the Research Questions Task Force. 0:05:28.138 --> 0:05:30.418 And it's like an advance scouting party where we look 0:05:30.418 --> 0:05:33.898 at emerging technologies and try to provide international guidance on it. 0:05:33.898 --> 0:05:36.088 And so some of the things that I'll be looking 0:05:36.088 --> 0:05:39.328 at is connected to that work. I think the exciting 0:05:39.328 --> 0:05:42.568 thing about AI from a disability standpoint is that we 0:05:42.568 --> 0:05:45.238 can get some really great, fun, positive things that help 0:05:45.238 --> 0:05:49.678 our independence. There are some great accessibility implications, but also, unfortunately, 0:05:49.678 --> 0:05:51.958 there are some privacy and security things that can block 0:05:51.958 --> 0:05:54.628 some of those benefits. So to start with the fun things, 0:05:54.628 --> 0:05:56.398 I mean, one of the great things that has come 0:05:56.398 --> 0:05:59.878 to my phone recently is the, uh, guided frame selfie camera. 0:05:59.878 --> 0:06:02.548 So the fact that with my Google Pixel phone, I 0:06:02.548 --> 0:06:04.468 can hold up my phone, it will tell me if 0:06:04.468 --> 0:06:06.268 I've lined things up properly and then it will take 0:06:06.268 --> 0:06:09.508 a photo of a selfie. So this is AI. In 0:06:09.508 --> 0:06:12.838 a really simple, practical form. The AI figures out the image, 0:06:12.838 --> 0:06:14.878 it figures out where my face is in it, and 0:06:14.878 --> 0:06:16.858 it helps me to be able to take that selfie. 0:06:16.858 --> 0:06:20.788 So that's from a fun, independent standpoint. That's a great feature. 0:06:20.788 --> 0:06:23.518 But when we look further abroad, we need to consider 0:06:23.518 --> 0:06:27.238 our everyday experiences in terms of finding information online. So, 0:06:27.238 --> 0:06:30.778 for example, how effective is auto generated alt text on 0:06:30.778 --> 0:06:33.448 web pages? Are there any browsers that can actually do 0:06:33.448 --> 0:06:36.058 that on the fly, and if so, how good are they? 0:06:36.058 --> 0:06:39.268 And all the way through to testing for accessibility online. 0:06:39.268 --> 0:06:42.098 So we have automated testing. Tools that can check if 0:06:42.098 --> 0:06:45.848 things are accessible, but do they really check much? Currently, 0:06:45.848 --> 0:06:48.968 the tools can only check about 40% of the International 0:06:48.968 --> 0:06:52.358 Web Content Accessibility Guidelines standard. But now that we're really 0:06:52.358 --> 0:06:55.718 seeing huge evolution in AI, are these tools going to improve? 0:06:55.718 --> 0:06:57.608 So I think the range of looking at what, from 0:06:57.608 --> 0:07:01.328 a practical sense is there for us in AI, what 0:07:01.328 --> 0:07:04.628 can be done in terms of improving our everyday experiences 0:07:04.628 --> 0:07:08.678 as we navigate technology, and also in testing and evaluation? 0:07:08.678 --> 0:07:10.358 How is that going? So these are some of the 0:07:10.358 --> 0:07:12.548 topics that we'll be exploring at roundtable. 0:07:12.548 --> 0:07:16.958 And Scott, it's really important to strike that fine balance 0:07:16.958 --> 0:07:20.108 isn't it, with giving the app or the the phone 0:07:20.108 --> 0:07:23.768 or the device your information so that it can fine 0:07:23.768 --> 0:07:27.698 tune and streamline the information that it does give you 0:07:27.698 --> 0:07:30.758 in regards to things like, you know, getting around on 0:07:30.758 --> 0:07:34.238 public transport, I know there's a few apps that are 0:07:34.238 --> 0:07:37.358 launching there that they want to know your location. They 0:07:37.358 --> 0:07:40.748 want to know where you're going, how many times a 0:07:40.748 --> 0:07:44.228 week you're going to that certain location. You know, some 0:07:44.228 --> 0:07:47.978 people may be a bit wary about giving away that information, 0:07:47.978 --> 0:07:51.578 but then it's also striking that balance of, okay, but 0:07:51.578 --> 0:07:54.578 if you give the app that information, it can help 0:07:54.578 --> 0:07:57.608 you get from point A to B if you don't 0:07:57.608 --> 0:08:01.418 have the vision, perhaps to get around on public transport, 0:08:01.418 --> 0:08:05.528 see street signs, or use a map in some capacity. 0:08:05.528 --> 0:08:09.218 Because sometimes those map apps, they're not as accessible as 0:08:09.218 --> 0:08:12.878 they should be. So what's your thoughts on that? Well, you're. 0:08:12.878 --> 0:08:16.058 Absolutely right, Sam. I think those are really important aspects 0:08:16.058 --> 0:08:19.418 as we join together a whole series of technologies around navigation, 0:08:19.418 --> 0:08:21.578 and we've got all the tech that's been with us 0:08:21.578 --> 0:08:24.098 for some time, but then we do have AI that 0:08:24.098 --> 0:08:27.338 can provide those additional supports. So in terms of making 0:08:27.338 --> 0:08:29.888 sure we do have the information we need in real time, 0:08:29.888 --> 0:08:33.428 I can do some assessments around other communication technologies and 0:08:33.428 --> 0:08:36.098 how to join all that together, and also making our 0:08:36.098 --> 0:08:39.698 devices more conversational. I mean, we've seen recent releases like 0:08:39.698 --> 0:08:42.418 The Humane Pin and the Rabbit one, which have had 0:08:42.418 --> 0:08:45.358 very mixed reviews around their ability to have AI on 0:08:45.358 --> 0:08:46.888 the go, which might be able to help us with 0:08:46.888 --> 0:08:49.078 some of these things. But even though the technology is 0:08:49.078 --> 0:08:51.928 very fledgling, I think it does show us that there 0:08:51.928 --> 0:08:55.318 is interest in having something AI dedicated that can really 0:08:55.318 --> 0:08:57.328 join all these things together, where we can be very 0:08:57.328 --> 0:09:00.568 conversational in how we do things, and could open the 0:09:00.568 --> 0:09:04.828 door to just significantly simplify some of these processes. So 0:09:04.828 --> 0:09:07.078 I'm excited about the future. I do think that AI 0:09:07.108 --> 0:09:10.378 has great opportunities, but as we've just discussed, there is 0:09:10.378 --> 0:09:14.218 privacy concerns, there are security concerns, and sometimes we've seen 0:09:14.218 --> 0:09:17.638 a step forward. So for example, a not vision related 0:09:17.638 --> 0:09:21.148 accessibility benefit. Recently it has been people who are nonverbal, 0:09:21.148 --> 0:09:23.668 who have been able to use a recorded voice or 0:09:23.668 --> 0:09:25.798 sample their own voice before they lose it and can 0:09:25.798 --> 0:09:28.228 now make phone calls with an iPhone. And that's a 0:09:28.228 --> 0:09:30.628 huge step forward. And that's very exciting. But we're now 0:09:30.628 --> 0:09:33.808 seeing a banking software and others on automated phone lines 0:09:33.808 --> 0:09:36.628 blocking that opportunity because they detect an artificial voice and 0:09:36.628 --> 0:09:39.388 have decided it's a scam. So this happens a lot. 0:09:39.388 --> 0:09:41.758 We see a step forward for people with disability thanks 0:09:41.758 --> 0:09:44.218 to AI, but then we see a step back because 0:09:44.218 --> 0:09:47.158 it's assumed that there is some other purpose for what's 0:09:47.158 --> 0:09:49.738 going on. And so this is, I think, always going 0:09:49.738 --> 0:09:51.418 to be the balance that we have to have, you know, 0:09:51.418 --> 0:09:53.428 how can we get the AI in the hands of 0:09:53.428 --> 0:09:55.588 people with disability to make sure that it's we have 0:09:55.588 --> 0:09:58.168 the benefits of it, that it really does help us, 0:09:58.168 --> 0:10:01.348 that we can have that conversational interaction, but then we 0:10:01.348 --> 0:10:03.328 don't want to block it because it's seen as there 0:10:03.328 --> 0:10:05.188 could be some ulterior motive. So it's a bit of 0:10:05.188 --> 0:10:07.018 a cat and mouse at the moment, but I'm broadly 0:10:07.018 --> 0:10:09.148 excited about where it could go, for sure. 0:10:09.148 --> 0:10:12.178 And that does open up, of course, a really wide 0:10:12.178 --> 0:10:17.038 advocacy and awareness conversation that should be had and is 0:10:17.038 --> 0:10:22.318 very important in amongst all of these discussions with artificial 0:10:22.318 --> 0:10:26.908 intelligence and the accessibility benefits it can provide. So how 0:10:26.908 --> 0:10:29.998 do you perceive that's going at the moment? What are 0:10:29.998 --> 0:10:34.648 things like from an advocacy and awareness standpoint in regards 0:10:34.648 --> 0:10:38.008 to those things, like the conversations that need to be 0:10:38.008 --> 0:10:41.398 had with banks and other places like that? It's a great. 0:10:41.398 --> 0:10:45.688 Question. I think one of the biggest challenges is representing 0:10:45.688 --> 0:10:50.068 the arguments for digital access in the context of the organization. 0:10:50.068 --> 0:10:52.738 So I think most of us who have lived experience 0:10:52.738 --> 0:10:55.408 want digital access to happen because it supports our independence, 0:10:55.408 --> 0:10:57.358 and it just seems like it's the right thing to do. 0:10:57.388 --> 0:10:59.728 You know, we live in a global society. The internet's 0:10:59.728 --> 0:11:01.768 a global medium. It just makes sense. We want to 0:11:01.768 --> 0:11:04.678 have access to that and the independence associated with that. 0:11:04.678 --> 0:11:06.838 But for a bank, they will look at things in 0:11:06.838 --> 0:11:10.138 relation to a business case. So how can we argue 0:11:10.138 --> 0:11:13.378 in other terms as well. And so things like the 0:11:13.378 --> 0:11:17.248 spending power of people with disability is about $9 trillion. 0:11:17.248 --> 0:11:20.818 And so that's something that the bank goes oh $9 trillion. 0:11:20.818 --> 0:11:22.768 You know, we could be missing out on a lot 0:11:22.768 --> 0:11:24.688 of customers. We could you know, if we're not doing 0:11:24.688 --> 0:11:27.088 the right thing, then maybe there's some some impacts to 0:11:27.088 --> 0:11:28.708 our bottom line. And whilst, you know, I don't want 0:11:28.708 --> 0:11:32.098 to suggest that that's the only motivation for a bank, but, 0:11:32.218 --> 0:11:35.158 you know, in terms of framing accessibility in those arguments, 0:11:35.158 --> 0:11:37.558 you know, making sure that you have effective branding, we 0:11:37.558 --> 0:11:39.988 know that when we get accessibility right, it doesn't just 0:11:39.988 --> 0:11:42.428 help people. With disability. It helps everyone. I had an 0:11:42.428 --> 0:11:45.698 example just recently where I was giving a workshop presentation 0:11:45.698 --> 0:11:49.268 and the audio completely died, but because our videos that 0:11:49.268 --> 0:11:51.788 we were showing had captions, people could still view the 0:11:51.788 --> 0:11:55.088 screen and keep up with that. So it did have 0:11:55.088 --> 0:11:57.278 some impacts in terms of people who are blind or 0:11:57.278 --> 0:11:59.258 low vision in the room. But it did also highlight 0:11:59.258 --> 0:12:02.408 the fact that because we had accessibility features enabled, it 0:12:02.408 --> 0:12:05.468 did provide that benefit. So we see time and time 0:12:05.468 --> 0:12:08.108 again that when we do make things accessible, it doesn't 0:12:08.108 --> 0:12:11.288 just help people with lived experience, but it also helps everyone. 0:12:11.288 --> 0:12:15.338 And so arguing the branding aspects, arguing the bottom line 0:12:15.338 --> 0:12:18.938 aspects and also, you know, importantly arguing that it is 0:12:18.938 --> 0:12:21.758 a really important thing to do. And the more we 0:12:21.758 --> 0:12:24.698 bundle these arguments together, the better it gets. And you know, 0:12:24.698 --> 0:12:26.888 a day like Global Accessibility Awareness Day is a great 0:12:26.888 --> 0:12:28.628 tool to bring those things together. 0:12:28.628 --> 0:12:30.998 And if people would like to know a little bit 0:12:30.998 --> 0:12:35.768 more about your center for Accessibility Australia and perhaps get 0:12:35.768 --> 0:12:39.848 in touch, what's the best way for people to do that? 0:12:39.848 --> 0:12:43.838 Yeah. Um, we have a great website at accessibility.org. So 0:12:43.868 --> 0:12:46.028 that's where we have our help desk section. So if 0:12:46.028 --> 0:12:48.698 you are trying to get your accessibility features turned on 0:12:48.698 --> 0:12:50.768 your device of choice, or you're not sure what features 0:12:50.768 --> 0:12:53.888 are available to support people with different disabilities such as vision, 0:12:53.888 --> 0:12:56.888 then there is a great resource, step by step resource there. 0:12:56.888 --> 0:12:58.508 And we also have that free help desk that people 0:12:58.508 --> 0:13:00.728 are welcome to contact us on and we can provide 0:13:00.728 --> 0:13:03.968 some support there. Also, if you are having conversations with 0:13:03.968 --> 0:13:08.078 people around how to make content accessible in our projects menu, 0:13:08.108 --> 0:13:10.808 we have a section called Understanding Accessibility and we have 0:13:10.808 --> 0:13:13.898 a six part resource there free resource to walk people 0:13:13.898 --> 0:13:16.808 through how they can make their content accessible, going through 0:13:16.808 --> 0:13:19.448 the Web Content Accessibility guidelines. So there's a great free 0:13:19.448 --> 0:13:22.298 resource there as well. But ultimately, if we can be 0:13:22.298 --> 0:13:24.878 of help, please just reach out and contact us. So 0:13:24.878 --> 0:13:29.588 our main email address is admin at accessibility Orgo. So 0:13:29.588 --> 0:13:34.028 admin accessibility Orgo. And we just love to hear from you. 0:13:34.028 --> 0:13:36.338 So um please feel free to get in touch. 0:13:36.338 --> 0:13:41.258 Okay. Fantastic. I've been speaking today with Doctor Scott Hollier, 0:13:41.258 --> 0:13:46.538 founder and CEO of the center for Accessibility Australia, here 0:13:46.538 --> 0:13:50.468 to chat to me all about Global Accessibility Awareness Day, 0:13:50.468 --> 0:13:56.948 but also wide ranging conversations around artificial intelligence and its 0:13:56.948 --> 0:14:07.788 potential benefits and drawbacks. I'm Sam Kelly and you're listening 0:14:07.818 --> 0:14:13.008 to Talking Vision on Vision Australia Radio, associated stations of 0:14:13.008 --> 0:14:17.898 the Reading Radio Network, and the Community Radio Network. I 0:14:17.898 --> 0:14:21.768 hope you enjoyed that conversation there with Doctor Scott Hollier 0:14:21.768 --> 0:14:26.388 from the centre for accessibility. If you missed any part 0:14:26.388 --> 0:14:29.688 of that conversation with Scott or you'd love to listen 0:14:29.688 --> 0:14:33.558 to it again, talking vision is available on the Vision 0:14:33.558 --> 0:14:41.088 Australia Radio website at VA radio.org. That's VA radio.org. You 0:14:41.088 --> 0:14:43.998 can also find the program on the podcast app of 0:14:43.998 --> 0:14:48.588 your choice or through the Vision Australia library. And now 0:14:48.588 --> 0:14:53.898 coming up next we're hear from audio description specialist Polly Goodwin. 0:14:53.958 --> 0:14:58.998 Polly's recently been in Japan presenting an interactive talk and 0:14:58.998 --> 0:15:03.918 workshop on audio description in gaming, and I started the 0:15:03.918 --> 0:15:08.508 conversation with Polly by asking about the workshop and how 0:15:08.508 --> 0:15:09.048 it went. 0:15:09.078 --> 0:15:13.818 Yes, that's right. So the Audio Engineering Society has put 0:15:13.818 --> 0:15:18.498 on a conference focusing on audio for games, and I've 0:15:18.498 --> 0:15:22.248 been working on a project with Doctor Xiaokangzhang, who's based 0:15:22.248 --> 0:15:25.458 in the UK, and she's run a project called Adi 0:15:25.458 --> 0:15:29.508 for games. So looking at can audio description make video 0:15:29.508 --> 0:15:32.658 games accessible. So she pulled me in to do some 0:15:32.658 --> 0:15:35.268 audio description on part of her project, and we thought 0:15:35.268 --> 0:15:38.898 that this particular conference would be a really exciting space 0:15:38.898 --> 0:15:42.648 to kind of introduce the concept to the sort of 0:15:42.648 --> 0:15:46.728 people who might be able to implement audio description in games, 0:15:46.728 --> 0:15:50.208 i.e the people who are making sound for games. So 0:15:50.208 --> 0:15:54.228 we ran a workshop and basically we talked a bit 0:15:54.228 --> 0:15:57.708 about the project and then did a simulation of the 0:15:57.708 --> 0:16:01.218 experiment that we ran with our participants who are blind 0:16:01.218 --> 0:16:04.698 or have low vision, and we simulated this by having 0:16:04.698 --> 0:16:10.068 sighted participants able to see the game and the non-sighted participants. 0:16:10.068 --> 0:16:12.498 We rendered them non sighted by having their backs to 0:16:12.498 --> 0:16:14.778 the screen. So we tried to kind of copy it 0:16:14.778 --> 0:16:16.848 and we had really similar results. 0:16:17.478 --> 0:16:21.108 Oh wow. Okay, so um, tell us a bit about 0:16:21.108 --> 0:16:25.908 those results. What were the most interesting findings from the workshop? 0:16:26.298 --> 0:16:28.818 The huge thing for me, I think so the idea 0:16:28.848 --> 0:16:33.498 Zhongjiang has been working on different steps of where and 0:16:33.498 --> 0:16:37.458 how audio description could happen. And the step I worked 0:16:37.458 --> 0:16:42.378 on with her was let's have an audio describer move 0:16:42.378 --> 0:16:44.988 gameplay along so they've got control of the joystick or 0:16:44.988 --> 0:16:49.548 the mouse and their audio describing what they're seeing. And 0:16:49.548 --> 0:16:52.548 players who are blind or have low vision are giving 0:16:52.548 --> 0:16:55.548 instructions as to how they want the game to proceed. 0:16:55.908 --> 0:16:59.448 So started off, I was super prepared. I had an 0:16:59.448 --> 0:17:02.688 audio introduction for them to tell them everything, and I 0:17:02.688 --> 0:17:06.948 was very much in my professional audio describer persona, so 0:17:06.948 --> 0:17:10.008 I wanted to remain objective. I wanted to not bring 0:17:10.008 --> 0:17:13.218 my own perspectives in, not be biased one way or 0:17:13.218 --> 0:17:17.088 the other, or influence the game and all of the experiments. 0:17:17.088 --> 0:17:19.698 It became really clear that that's not at all the 0:17:19.698 --> 0:17:23.628 vibe that our players wanted. So it evolved really quickly 0:17:23.628 --> 0:17:28.608 into quite a different interaction. So I was part of 0:17:28.608 --> 0:17:31.998 the game, so we were all playing together and we've 0:17:31.998 --> 0:17:35.208 called this co playing the idea that the describer. Yes, 0:17:35.208 --> 0:17:38.358 has that slightly additional role of describing what's happening visually. 0:17:38.358 --> 0:17:41.148 But we're all as a team making decisions based on 0:17:41.148 --> 0:17:44.328 that information about how we want to go forward. So 0:17:44.328 --> 0:17:46.398 it was a lot more fun for me because I 0:17:46.398 --> 0:17:49.818 got to be quite opinionated. But it was yeah, I mean, 0:17:49.818 --> 0:17:51.768 a real change of direction for me. I'm very used 0:17:51.768 --> 0:17:54.918 to having everything organized, set up and a script to 0:17:54.918 --> 0:17:57.948 work from, literally. So this was a lot more free style. 0:17:57.948 --> 0:18:02.988 And there were three different components to the workshop. So 0:18:02.988 --> 0:18:06.738 for our listeners out there, those three components, they were 0:18:06.738 --> 0:18:10.818 recorded audio description of a game playing video. And then 0:18:10.818 --> 0:18:13.878 you had live audio description of a game streaming session 0:18:13.878 --> 0:18:18.618 and live audio description of an audio described playing the game. 0:18:18.618 --> 0:18:22.398 So were there any sort of observations between those three 0:18:22.398 --> 0:18:25.608 that changed, and what sort of stage did people, I guess, 0:18:25.608 --> 0:18:28.308 respond to the best, or you got the most sort 0:18:28.308 --> 0:18:29.898 of interaction from? 0:18:29.898 --> 0:18:32.958 I think really it is that last one. So having 0:18:32.958 --> 0:18:37.638 that audio describer, playing the game whilst audio describing, and 0:18:37.638 --> 0:18:39.738 it is because of exactly what you said, it's because 0:18:39.738 --> 0:18:43.218 that achieved an interaction that those earlier experiments where we 0:18:43.218 --> 0:18:47.418 had in the first instance, somebody recording somebody playing a 0:18:47.418 --> 0:18:50.058 game and then describing that. So it's really like kind 0:18:50.058 --> 0:18:52.428 of a watch a thon type model, which are also 0:18:52.428 --> 0:18:56.268 really enjoyable. But there's nothing that you as a participant 0:18:56.268 --> 0:18:59.598 can do to influence what's happening in the game. And 0:18:59.598 --> 0:19:02.688 the second that someone describing it live but still no 0:19:02.688 --> 0:19:05.518 opportunity for a player. To interact. So it was really 0:19:05.518 --> 0:19:07.738 that third one that kind of hit the sweet spot 0:19:07.738 --> 0:19:10.138 where we were looking at. Yeah, we're all talking together. 0:19:10.138 --> 0:19:12.118 We're all in this space. What should we do with 0:19:12.118 --> 0:19:13.828 our game? How should we progress it? 0:19:13.948 --> 0:19:17.548 What do you see as the future for these sort 0:19:17.548 --> 0:19:21.178 of things in terms of audio description for gaming, where 0:19:21.178 --> 0:19:24.418 do you see that heading in the future and what 0:19:24.418 --> 0:19:27.718 sort of needs to happen to provide the audio description 0:19:27.718 --> 0:19:31.048 that players who are blind or have low vision do require? 0:19:31.138 --> 0:19:34.168 I think there's three parts that can and should all 0:19:34.168 --> 0:19:37.648 happen simultaneously. So the first one sits very much with 0:19:37.648 --> 0:19:40.378 the game developers, and there's a lot they can already 0:19:40.378 --> 0:19:44.758 do to make games accessible using audio description and other tools. 0:19:44.758 --> 0:19:47.428 So even things like making sure text to speech is 0:19:47.428 --> 0:19:51.028 working with your heads up menu, giving options around font 0:19:51.028 --> 0:19:54.988 size and contrast. And there are games starting to do this, 0:19:54.988 --> 0:19:58.888 so that's one. The second one is one of the 0:19:58.888 --> 0:20:01.648 outputs of the ad for games project is going to 0:20:01.648 --> 0:20:06.208 be some guidelines aimed at non-professional audio describers, so that 0:20:06.208 --> 0:20:08.908 they feel comfortable and able to with their friends who 0:20:08.908 --> 0:20:11.638 are blind or low vision or play together. Just give 0:20:11.638 --> 0:20:13.948 them basic prompts about you know, how you can help 0:20:14.068 --> 0:20:17.338 the audio describe something, because the model where you have 0:20:17.338 --> 0:20:21.118 a professional describer coming in to play a video game 0:20:21.118 --> 0:20:23.608 with a group of people, that's great and that's fun, 0:20:23.608 --> 0:20:26.008 but it involves a lot of setup and it's costly, 0:20:26.008 --> 0:20:27.718 all of those things. So how do we make it 0:20:27.718 --> 0:20:30.358 so that everyone and anyone can do it? And then 0:20:30.358 --> 0:20:32.938 the third one is the step that the ad for 0:20:32.938 --> 0:20:35.878 games project is moving on to next, which is how 0:20:35.878 --> 0:20:39.478 can we embed audio description in the hardware and software 0:20:39.478 --> 0:20:42.118 of the game? And for me, this was really fascinating 0:20:42.118 --> 0:20:46.048 going to the AAS conference, because there were experts talking 0:20:46.048 --> 0:20:50.968 about the amazing things they're doing about making 3D audio, 0:20:50.968 --> 0:20:55.408 embedding audio cues and tags within a game. And they 0:20:55.408 --> 0:20:58.588 were talking about it from an immersion perspective, but a 0:20:58.588 --> 0:21:01.108 lot of the solutions and the paths that were going 0:21:01.108 --> 0:21:05.638 down could really easily also be hijacked for audio description. 0:21:05.638 --> 0:21:08.728 So you can tag various things that you see or 0:21:08.728 --> 0:21:10.798 you interact with in a game with a piece of 0:21:10.798 --> 0:21:13.288 audio description. And I think that's a really interesting way 0:21:13.288 --> 0:21:16.078 of embedding ad in a game, so that as a player, 0:21:16.078 --> 0:21:18.628 you can play whenever you like. You don't have to 0:21:18.628 --> 0:21:21.538 plan it, prepare for it. You don't need another person. 0:21:21.538 --> 0:21:23.848 It's completely on your terms. So I think that that's 0:21:23.848 --> 0:21:27.058 another really exciting direction that we should be exploring. 0:21:27.058 --> 0:21:30.628 And it's really interesting playing games like, um, breath of 0:21:30.628 --> 0:21:33.778 the wild, which came out in 2017. Polly, when you're 0:21:33.778 --> 0:21:37.498 fighting a boss, they have a character who says things like, oh, 0:21:37.498 --> 0:21:39.448 you know, watch out for his spear. It's got a 0:21:39.448 --> 0:21:42.088 really long reach or, you know, oh, he's moved up 0:21:42.088 --> 0:21:44.488 to the ceiling now that you've got him down to 0:21:44.488 --> 0:21:47.218 half health or, you know, oh, the, you know, the 0:21:47.218 --> 0:21:49.798 room is filling up with water. Look out for that. 0:21:49.798 --> 0:21:53.398 You'll have to jump onto a platform. So it's interesting 0:21:53.398 --> 0:21:57.208 that those Triple-A games sort of have an element of 0:21:57.208 --> 0:22:01.978 audio description, but it's also not really describing what's happening 0:22:01.978 --> 0:22:05.368 in real time. It's sort of just giving you input 0:22:05.368 --> 0:22:08.518 into like a change that's happened in the boss fight, 0:22:08.518 --> 0:22:11.428 but not really in live time. So what do you 0:22:11.428 --> 0:22:15.118 see with those big games like the Triple-A releases? What 0:22:15.118 --> 0:22:18.328 have been your observations from them in terms of which 0:22:18.328 --> 0:22:21.538 ones have been quite accessible or quite well received in 0:22:21.568 --> 0:22:22.378 that regard? 0:22:22.378 --> 0:22:27.328 Well, there's been some fantastic examples. I think Assassin's Creed 0:22:27.328 --> 0:22:29.848 Valhalla is one that often comes quite high up on 0:22:29.848 --> 0:22:33.208 the list. That's got something really interesting where they've brought 0:22:33.208 --> 0:22:36.328 in a feature called Odin's Sight, which kind of gives 0:22:36.328 --> 0:22:39.268 you a scanning ability where you can kind of tag 0:22:39.268 --> 0:22:42.868 enemies that are nearby using either audio or visual clues. 0:22:42.868 --> 0:22:45.208 So that's similar to what you were talking about, the 0:22:45.208 --> 0:22:47.458 idea that you embed something within the game. So it's 0:22:47.458 --> 0:22:50.848 not this kind of quote unquote disability add on, but 0:22:50.848 --> 0:22:53.938 part of the gaming experience. And there are lots of 0:22:53.938 --> 0:22:56.998 different players who might want to activate that. It's not 0:22:56.998 --> 0:22:59.398 just about if you can or can't see. So that's 0:22:59.398 --> 0:23:02.308 a great one. The Vale Shadow of the Crown, that 0:23:02.308 --> 0:23:05.548 was created in conjunction with the Canadian National Institute for 0:23:05.548 --> 0:23:08.938 the Blind and that's really interesting. That's a really great 0:23:08.938 --> 0:23:12.298 example of representation as well, because the main character is 0:23:12.298 --> 0:23:15.088 a girl who's blind. So you're really kind of embracing 0:23:15.088 --> 0:23:18.208 that environment. And then there's kind of people who've dipped 0:23:18.208 --> 0:23:21.298 their toes in it. So there's a game called perception, 0:23:21.298 --> 0:23:24.838 which has an interesting concept. It doesn't quite transfer to 0:23:24.838 --> 0:23:28.258 being fully accessible because it's an indie outfit producing it. 0:23:28.258 --> 0:23:30.298 So they just didn't have the budget. But in that game, 0:23:30.298 --> 0:23:33.358 we have a character who is also blind, and she 0:23:33.358 --> 0:23:36.898 navigates her way around the game using echolocation. So she 0:23:36.898 --> 0:23:39.808 has to tap her cane, and that's how information comes 0:23:39.808 --> 0:23:41.698 to her. So I think the thing I really wanted 0:23:41.698 --> 0:23:44.338 to get across to the conference group was that it 0:23:44.338 --> 0:23:48.298 doesn't have to be a box ticking burden making your 0:23:48.298 --> 0:23:51.418 game accessible, but actually it's a really great opportunity to 0:23:51.418 --> 0:23:54.628 think about, okay, what's the way that we can use audio? 0:23:54.628 --> 0:23:57.688 How can we see this as a creative spark rather 0:23:57.688 --> 0:24:00.748 than a kind of creative cage, I suppose. And the 0:24:00.748 --> 0:24:04.138 responses were great. People were really enthused about what this might. 0:24:04.238 --> 0:24:06.848 Mean and just a different way of thinking about it. 0:24:06.848 --> 0:24:10.628 And probably one other reason we are catching up today 0:24:10.628 --> 0:24:15.968 is Global Accessibility Awareness Day, which is coming up on 0:24:15.968 --> 0:24:19.838 the 16th of May. So that ties quite nicely into 0:24:19.838 --> 0:24:23.888 quite a few discussions we've already been having in regards 0:24:23.888 --> 0:24:28.538 to how we can make gaming more accessible for people 0:24:28.538 --> 0:24:32.018 out there who are blind or have low vision. So 0:24:32.018 --> 0:24:36.788 as somebody in the audio description sector for so long, 0:24:36.788 --> 0:24:40.388 what does a day such as Global Accessibility Awareness Day 0:24:40.388 --> 0:24:41.348 mean for you? 0:24:41.618 --> 0:24:45.098 Oh, I think it's absolutely fantastic. I mean, for me, 0:24:45.098 --> 0:24:48.518 I think every day should be. But it's great to 0:24:48.518 --> 0:24:50.708 take a day where you've got an opportunity to really 0:24:50.708 --> 0:24:54.668 showcase both why it's important and what it involves. I 0:24:54.668 --> 0:24:59.138 think every group of people I've spoken to who are 0:24:59.138 --> 0:25:01.838 not in the disability sector or don't have family, or 0:25:01.838 --> 0:25:05.038 their own lived experience of blindness or low vision, they're 0:25:05.038 --> 0:25:08.698 really fascinated and interested to learn what they can do, 0:25:08.698 --> 0:25:12.358 how they can support making things more accessible, and quite often, 0:25:12.358 --> 0:25:14.578 how it can also benefit them as well. The great 0:25:14.578 --> 0:25:17.068 thing about audio description is I here have sighted people 0:25:17.068 --> 0:25:18.808 all the time telling me that, you know, they have 0:25:18.808 --> 0:25:21.178 it on in the background because it means they can multitask. 0:25:21.178 --> 0:25:24.808 So it's this kind of bringing it into everyone's awareness 0:25:24.808 --> 0:25:27.658 that this is this is something for all of us, 0:25:27.658 --> 0:25:30.838 and particularly, I think with the blindness and low vision, 0:25:30.838 --> 0:25:33.598 you know, we're all we're all it may come to 0:25:33.598 --> 0:25:35.938 any of us. So it's something that we need to 0:25:35.938 --> 0:25:39.118 embed in as much of society as we can so 0:25:39.118 --> 0:25:42.418 that everyone can access as much as they can. And 0:25:42.418 --> 0:25:44.968 and a day like that really gives an opportunity to 0:25:44.968 --> 0:25:46.948 kind of focus in on that. And so it's great 0:25:46.948 --> 0:25:48.238 that you're doing that. Sam. 0:25:48.538 --> 0:25:51.298 It's great to have you to chat all about it. 0:25:51.298 --> 0:25:54.598 You know, we could chat for hours about games, Polly. 0:25:54.598 --> 0:25:58.678 We could. Absolutely. It's amazing. But that's all the time 0:25:58.678 --> 0:26:02.128 we have for now. But just to wrap up, are 0:26:02.128 --> 0:26:07.438 there ways that people can follow the progress of the project? 0:26:07.438 --> 0:26:10.588 If they'd like to keep tabs on what's happening next 0:26:10.588 --> 0:26:15.298 or what else is happening in the world of audio description? 0:26:15.298 --> 0:26:19.738 In gaming in particular, is there anywhere that those listeners 0:26:19.738 --> 0:26:22.498 can go if they'd love to find out more or, 0:26:22.498 --> 0:26:24.748 you know, keep tabs on what's happening? 0:26:24.748 --> 0:26:29.638 Absolutely. So the website has shifted because the project's shifted 0:26:29.638 --> 0:26:33.448 its base from one university to another. So probably the 0:26:33.448 --> 0:26:36.688 best way would be to either find me on LinkedIn 0:26:36.688 --> 0:26:39.598 and connect with me. I'm Polly Goodwin, or just get 0:26:39.598 --> 0:26:41.218 in touch with you, Sam, and you can pass them 0:26:41.218 --> 0:26:42.868 on to me, and I'll make sure that they've got 0:26:42.868 --> 0:26:44.758 an update on what's going on. And if people want 0:26:44.758 --> 0:26:46.738 to get involved as well, that would be fantastic. 0:26:46.738 --> 0:26:51.538 Perfect. I've been speaking today with Polly Goodwin, involved in 0:26:51.538 --> 0:26:56.758 the ad for Games Project alongside Xiaochun Zhang, a project 0:26:56.758 --> 0:27:02.848 using audio description to create accessible and immersive gameplay experiences. 0:27:09.658 --> 0:27:12.718 And that's all the time we have for today. You've 0:27:12.718 --> 0:27:16.978 been listening to Talking Vision. Talking vision is a Vision 0:27:16.978 --> 0:27:21.118 Australia radio production. Thanks to all involved with putting the 0:27:21.118 --> 0:27:25.318 show together every week. And remember, we love hearing from you. 0:27:25.318 --> 0:27:28.618 So please get in touch any time on our email 0:27:28.618 --> 0:27:33.928 at Talking Vision. At Vision australia.org. That's talking vision all 0:27:33.928 --> 0:27:38.698 one word at Vision australia.org. But until next week it's 0:27:38.698 --> 0:27:41.008 Sam Colly saying bye for now. 0:27:44.488 --> 0:27:48.238 You can contact Vision Australia by phoning us any time 0:27:48.238 --> 0:27:55.288 during business hours on one 308 4746. That's one 308 0:27:55.288 --> 0:28:02.818 474106 or by visiting Vision Australia. Org that's Vision australia.org.