WEBVTT - Talking Tech 21st November 2023 0:00:08.168 --> 0:00:12.068 Hello everyone! Welcome to Talking Tech. This edition available from 0:00:12.068 --> 0:00:16.118 November the 21st, 2023. I'm Stephen Jolly. Great to have 0:00:16.118 --> 0:00:18.968 you with us. Listening may be through Vision Australia, Radio, 0:00:18.968 --> 0:00:23.588 Associated Stations of Australia or perhaps the Community Radio Network. 0:00:23.588 --> 0:00:26.648 There is also the podcast. To catch the podcast, all 0:00:26.648 --> 0:00:28.748 you need to do is search for the two words 0:00:28.748 --> 0:00:31.688 talking tech and downer can all come usually on a 0:00:31.688 --> 0:00:35.618 Tuesday afternoon just after it's been produced. Another option is 0:00:35.618 --> 0:00:39.158 to ask your Siri device or smart speaker to play 0:00:39.158 --> 0:00:44.108 within Australia. Radio talking tech podcast vision Australian radio talking 0:00:44.108 --> 0:00:47.528 tech podcast with me, someone who can explain all this 0:00:47.528 --> 0:00:52.418 tech stuff very well. Vision Australia's national advisor on access technology, 0:00:52.418 --> 0:00:58.118 David Woodbridge. David, you suggested today we spend time talking 0:00:58.118 --> 0:01:02.608 about products of Whisperer or really a subset of Spiro, 0:01:02.618 --> 0:01:05.768 which we used to know as Freedom Scientific and still 0:01:05.768 --> 0:01:09.668 do a lot of the time. The screen reader, jaws, 0:01:09.968 --> 0:01:13.568 screen magnifiers, zoom text, and the one that brings both 0:01:13.568 --> 0:01:16.358 of those together really fusion. So let's break that down 0:01:16.358 --> 0:01:19.508 a little bit. Firstly, can you explain to those who 0:01:19.538 --> 0:01:22.478 are not quite sure what a screen reader is and 0:01:22.478 --> 0:01:24.008 what a screen magnifier is? 0:01:24.248 --> 0:01:28.808 Basically, a screen reader is a computer program which reads 0:01:28.808 --> 0:01:32.798 information off the computer screen. And what I mean by 0:01:32.798 --> 0:01:34.808 that just doesn't read the text off the screen. It 0:01:34.808 --> 0:01:38.108 actually reads everything on the screen when you're particularly using 0:01:38.108 --> 0:01:41.888 the keyboard and in some circumstances, the mouse. So it 0:01:41.888 --> 0:01:45.248 reads out your buttons on the screen, your labels of 0:01:45.248 --> 0:01:49.028 your fields in a database, it reads out menu bars, 0:01:49.028 --> 0:01:51.128 so it reads out everything that a sort of person 0:01:51.128 --> 0:01:55.148 would see. And there are certain things that make a 0:01:55.148 --> 0:01:57.908 screen reader a lot different to things that just, quote, 0:01:58.028 --> 0:02:00.968 talk to you on the computer. So that's screen readers. 0:02:01.478 --> 0:02:06.038 And then screen magnification software is what it sounds like. 0:02:06.038 --> 0:02:09.488 It magnifies the screen. Now what some people don't realize 0:02:09.488 --> 0:02:12.518 is when it magnifies the screen, it means that you're 0:02:12.518 --> 0:02:15.248 only looking at one portion of the screen at a time. 0:02:15.248 --> 0:02:19.148 So when we talk about two times magnification, it's basically, 0:02:19.148 --> 0:02:22.268 you know, two times wide, two times height. So you're 0:02:22.268 --> 0:02:24.548 only looking at one small portion. And then the the 0:02:24.548 --> 0:02:27.938 higher up you go in the magnification setting, the smaller 0:02:27.938 --> 0:02:30.728 the amount of screen you're visually looking at, and the 0:02:30.728 --> 0:02:32.678 more you have to use the cursor or the mouse. 0:02:32.678 --> 0:02:35.408 But then there's lots of features that you can use 0:02:35.408 --> 0:02:38.858 to then go on in certain parts of the screen, 0:02:39.158 --> 0:02:42.398 you can change a color contrast. You can change what 0:02:42.398 --> 0:02:45.578 your mouse looks like, all sorts of amazing things. Plus 0:02:45.578 --> 0:02:47.498 have a bit of speech feedback if you want on 0:02:47.498 --> 0:02:50.858 certain application screens or in documents and so on. 0:02:51.188 --> 0:02:54.338 So we're talking about software that runs in the Windows 0:02:54.338 --> 0:02:59.348 10 and Windows 11 environment. Let's explain a little more 0:02:59.348 --> 0:03:01.418 about the jaws first. 0:03:01.598 --> 0:03:03.848 And look I know Windows 8 is still around and 0:03:03.848 --> 0:03:05.468 so on, but I just thought just to keep it 0:03:05.468 --> 0:03:08.048 nice and clean, let's talk about the current ones, which 0:03:08.048 --> 0:03:11.318 is Windows 10 and Windows 11. So let's talk about jaws. 0:03:11.318 --> 0:03:14.738 It's been around for over 25 years, and it's one 0:03:14.738 --> 0:03:18.338 of those screen readers that has developed a lot over 0:03:18.338 --> 0:03:22.508 the years. So it does stuff that most modern day 0:03:22.508 --> 0:03:25.348 screen readers do, including the free ones. So, you know, 0:03:25.358 --> 0:03:26.978 it reads out your screens and it runs at your 0:03:26.978 --> 0:03:29.438 door boxes and your labels and that sort of stuff. 0:03:30.068 --> 0:03:34.598 But what it does very well is that it's specifically 0:03:34.598 --> 0:03:40.058 programmed or scripted to use certain applications. So things like 0:03:40.058 --> 0:03:44.198 Microsoft Office, Edge and so on. So it's turned into 0:03:44.198 --> 0:03:47.978 a very powerful screen reader. And what it also does 0:03:47.978 --> 0:03:52.238 is it has little extra features that that have been 0:03:52.238 --> 0:03:54.818 added on through the years. So there isn't one that 0:03:54.818 --> 0:03:58.478 people may have noticed about is the the face in 0:03:58.478 --> 0:04:01.778 view function. So whether you're on a zoom call, you 0:04:01.778 --> 0:04:03.728 can check with your screen to make your or your 0:04:03.728 --> 0:04:08.138 faces in the video frame. But one thing in particular 0:04:08.138 --> 0:04:11.198 that make jaws stand out is that when I mentioned 0:04:11.198 --> 0:04:15.128 the word programmable, well, we call it scripting. And that's 0:04:15.128 --> 0:04:18.788 because particularly in the workplace and even to some extent 0:04:18.788 --> 0:04:23.918 in education, particularly higher education. So tertiary level, you are 0:04:23.918 --> 0:04:27.368 going to be using programs that are not really designed 0:04:27.368 --> 0:04:31.628 to work with a screen reader, like Jaws or Narrator 0:04:31.628 --> 0:04:34.508 or Nvidia, the free one as well. So what you 0:04:34.508 --> 0:04:37.388 can do with jaws, you can actually program it to 0:04:37.388 --> 0:04:39.878 work with the different buttons and labels and windows on 0:04:39.878 --> 0:04:43.718 the screen. And one of the extra features is called tandem. 0:04:43.718 --> 0:04:47.498 And what tandem allows you to do is to log 0:04:47.498 --> 0:04:51.068 in to that machine. And the person remotely that's logged 0:04:51.068 --> 0:04:55.178 in can then program jaws on the other end and 0:04:55.178 --> 0:04:58.298 make sure it actually works with that particular program. So 0:04:58.298 --> 0:05:00.788 that makes it extremely powerful. Indeed. 0:05:01.448 --> 0:05:04.718 There's pretty good training resources for Jaws, isn't there? From 0:05:04.718 --> 0:05:05.828 Freedom Scientific? 0:05:06.278 --> 0:05:08.228 There is. In the show notes. I've got a few 0:05:08.228 --> 0:05:12.848 links to the training page. And effectively, they're pretty much 0:05:12.848 --> 0:05:17.468 Daisy books where they take you through certain tasks to 0:05:17.468 --> 0:05:21.488 do with, you know, Outlook or Microsoft Word and those 0:05:21.488 --> 0:05:26.138 sort of applications. There's also built in daisy training inside 0:05:26.138 --> 0:05:30.068 drawers itself. And then Freedom Scientific has two podcasts. They've 0:05:30.068 --> 0:05:33.938 got cast, which is their main podcast for film Scientific, 0:05:33.938 --> 0:05:36.278 where they outline and talk to people that use jaws, 0:05:36.278 --> 0:05:39.248 zoom Text or fusion. And they also have a training 0:05:39.248 --> 0:05:41.558 podcast so you can subscribe to both of those in 0:05:41.558 --> 0:05:45.728 your favorite pod catcher and catch up with different highlights 0:05:45.728 --> 0:05:48.938 of different things that they're doing every month or two. 0:05:49.448 --> 0:05:52.598 Tell us more about zoom text. The screen magnifier. 0:05:53.108 --> 0:05:56.138 Zoom text started off like jaws said back in the 0:05:56.138 --> 0:05:58.088 old DOS days. That's how long both of them have 0:05:58.088 --> 0:06:03.818 been around for, and zoom text has grown into one 0:06:03.818 --> 0:06:08.228 of the most used screen magnification program, at least in Australia. 0:06:08.678 --> 0:06:12.098 And what it allows you to do is to do 0:06:12.098 --> 0:06:15.128 an image before lots of amazing, cool things to do 0:06:15.128 --> 0:06:18.398 with your screen so you can do a lens view, 0:06:18.398 --> 0:06:20.288 you can do a half a screen view, you can 0:06:20.288 --> 0:06:23.858 do a full view, you can color match. So for example, 0:06:23.858 --> 0:06:26.918 let's say for example, you have trouble looking at the 0:06:26.918 --> 0:06:29.678 color blue. Then you can actually color match that to 0:06:29.678 --> 0:06:34.718 a different color. You can have different preset magnification levels 0:06:34.718 --> 0:06:37.508 that you can jump into. Or you can actually change 0:06:37.508 --> 0:06:41.468 the magnification levels on the fly. If you've got low 0:06:41.468 --> 0:06:44.468 vision and you're getting a bit visually fatigued, you can 0:06:44.468 --> 0:06:47.918 have it so that we'll actually read out application windows 0:06:47.918 --> 0:06:51.158 or documents to, you know, that's not a screen reader function. 0:06:51.158 --> 0:06:54.698 That's purely a text to speech to try and save 0:06:54.698 --> 0:06:57.548 your eyes a bit. You can also get it so 0:06:57.548 --> 0:07:00.278 that when you take your mouse over items, it will 0:07:00.278 --> 0:07:02.828 also speak at what's under the mouse. So you not 0:07:02.828 --> 0:07:07.658 only get the the low vision large print icon, mouse cursor, 0:07:07.658 --> 0:07:10.658 but you also get a bit of speech feedback as well. 0:07:11.018 --> 0:07:14.768 And of course like Jaws, you can customize it to 0:07:14.768 --> 0:07:19.088 a range of applications. But again, it's not going to 0:07:19.088 --> 0:07:22.658 be as configurable as a screen reader because screen readers 0:07:22.658 --> 0:07:26.138 sort of they do or they don't work with large print, 0:07:26.468 --> 0:07:28.358 you've got a little bit more leeway. But the really 0:07:28.358 --> 0:07:31.058 cool thing that I love about zoom text is that 0:07:31.058 --> 0:07:34.298 you can use it with two screens. So if you're 0:07:34.298 --> 0:07:36.458 a person in the workplace in particular that uses two 0:07:36.458 --> 0:07:40.208 screens for data input or other reasons, and then the 0:07:40.208 --> 0:07:43.688 screen magnification will actually work with both. But again, you've 0:07:43.688 --> 0:07:45.518 got to have it set up properly. And that's again 0:07:45.518 --> 0:07:49.808 why the adaptive technology service at Vision Australia's also available 0:07:49.808 --> 0:07:51.878 is to get that right set up. Otherwise of course 0:07:51.878 --> 0:07:52.868 it won't work properly. 0:07:53.078 --> 0:07:56.798 Another option for people with low vision that is some 0:07:56.798 --> 0:08:00.308 or minimal useful vision. So they like to look at 0:08:00.308 --> 0:08:04.028 things as well as to get the speech feedback. The 0:08:04.028 --> 0:08:05.168 product fusion. 0:08:05.438 --> 0:08:09.728 So what fusion is, it's basically running Jaws and Zoom 0:08:09.728 --> 0:08:14.138 text together. So what happens is that speech component I 0:08:14.138 --> 0:08:16.298 was talking about zoom text and that's fully taken over 0:08:16.298 --> 0:08:20.318 by jaws. So you're literally getting a full blown screen 0:08:20.318 --> 0:08:23.768 reader running jaws and a full blown screen magnifier running 0:08:23.768 --> 0:08:28.178 zoom text. So together you're getting the benefit of running 0:08:28.238 --> 0:08:31.658 an absolutely fantastic screen reader for windows, and of course, 0:08:31.658 --> 0:08:35.648 an absolutely fantastic screen magnifier for windows. Now, just a 0:08:35.648 --> 0:08:40.028 bit of a caution because you're running two assistive technology 0:08:40.028 --> 0:08:43.148 programs together, you really have to make sure that your 0:08:43.148 --> 0:08:46.628 machine's capable of running both. And the second thing to 0:08:46.628 --> 0:08:50.768 keep in mind is that zoom text is currently not 0:08:50.768 --> 0:08:56.138 compatible with Arm64 processors, so you won't be able to 0:08:56.138 --> 0:09:00.098 run zoom text on that. Jaws will still run, but 0:09:00.098 --> 0:09:02.528 zoom text, right? So if you're trying to run fusion, 0:09:03.008 --> 0:09:04.868 you're going to end up with the fact that zoom 0:09:04.868 --> 0:09:07.268 text part of it won't run at all. So again, 0:09:07.268 --> 0:09:10.718 it has to be internal. If you're using fusion. And 0:09:10.718 --> 0:09:14.078 one final thing I want to say about jaws text 0:09:14.078 --> 0:09:16.328 or fusion is that they can also run in what 0:09:16.328 --> 0:09:20.168 are called terminal or remote applications. And the most famous 0:09:20.168 --> 0:09:22.778 one of that, of course, is Citrix. And that's where 0:09:22.778 --> 0:09:26.198 all your applications are coming off a central server. So 0:09:26.198 --> 0:09:29.978 you're not running the applications locally. And what Jaws and 0:09:29.978 --> 0:09:32.918 zoom techs can do is they can actually access those 0:09:32.918 --> 0:09:36.128 programs running from the remote server because it most of 0:09:36.128 --> 0:09:39.668 the time, that's where the Jaws and zoom text applications 0:09:39.668 --> 0:09:43.988 are also installed. And lots of businesses use Citrix because 0:09:43.988 --> 0:09:48.548 you only have to update the main server. The local 0:09:48.548 --> 0:09:52.208 computers are literally just almost like old dumb terminals that 0:09:52.208 --> 0:09:54.608 we used to see back in the old mainframe days 0:09:54.608 --> 0:09:55.568 back in the 80s. 0:09:55.748 --> 0:09:59.288 Another point about Jaws is that for people who like 0:09:59.288 --> 0:10:02.558 to use Braille, and particularly for people who are deaf, blind, 0:10:02.558 --> 0:10:05.018 but for lots of others who like to use Braille, 0:10:05.318 --> 0:10:08.818 jaws will set up. To use Braille devices. 0:10:09.298 --> 0:10:12.298 It is. And there's a huge range of braille displays 0:10:12.298 --> 0:10:16.288 now from scientific is very famous for their focus 40 0:10:16.288 --> 0:10:19.528 and I might say their focus 80 cell braille display. Now, 0:10:19.528 --> 0:10:21.928 if I had the room, I'd love to use an 0:10:21.928 --> 0:10:24.988 80 cell braille display because you can fit that much content. 0:10:25.048 --> 0:10:28.408 It's just that it's so enormous. I probably should also 0:10:28.408 --> 0:10:30.358 add at this stage that remember that you can get 0:10:30.358 --> 0:10:35.008 demonstrations of all these programs. So if you're not sure 0:10:35.008 --> 0:10:37.138 if it meets your needs or if you want to 0:10:37.138 --> 0:10:39.868 spend lots of money on something, you can run all 0:10:39.868 --> 0:10:42.988 these in demonstration mode. Once the demo mode in particular, 0:10:42.988 --> 0:10:46.378 say for jaws, finishes after 40 minutes, you can restart 0:10:46.378 --> 0:10:48.358 your computer and use it for another 40 minutes, and 0:10:48.358 --> 0:10:52.138 so on. All these come in demonstration modes, and what 0:10:52.138 --> 0:10:55.198 some people do sometimes is they use their quite free 0:10:55.198 --> 0:10:58.198 screen reader like narrator in video, and then while they're 0:10:58.198 --> 0:11:02.368 learning or checking out jaws, for example, particularly on the internet, 0:11:02.368 --> 0:11:04.978 then they'll just use the 40 minute demo or the 0:11:04.978 --> 0:11:07.888 evaluation mode for for zoom text and or fusion. 0:11:08.248 --> 0:11:10.978 Jaws in particular does come at a fair price, doesn't it? 0:11:11.518 --> 0:11:13.798 It does. Now there's two versions of it. There's the 0:11:13.798 --> 0:11:17.398 home version, and then there's the professional version, and then 0:11:17.398 --> 0:11:19.198 there's also a live an extra version if you want 0:11:19.198 --> 0:11:22.588 to use it with remote Citrix, there's a, you know, 0:11:22.658 --> 0:11:25.948 a sort of a new added on license bit, and 0:11:25.948 --> 0:11:27.868 you've got two costs. You've got the cost for the 0:11:27.868 --> 0:11:31.048 initial software, and then you've got a software maintenance agreement 0:11:31.048 --> 0:11:34.838 that gives you two free updates every time there's a 0:11:34.858 --> 0:11:39.988 like a major update to the screen reader. So reasonably, 0:11:39.988 --> 0:11:44.368 you're looking at, let's say, between $1,000 ish for zoom 0:11:44.368 --> 0:11:49.618 text up to a Jaws license for professionals, which is 0:11:49.618 --> 0:11:53.698 about $2,500. Now, when you start thinking that you're going 0:11:53.698 --> 0:11:56.248 to be adding maybe zoom text on top of the 0:11:56.248 --> 0:12:00.478 price of jaws, it starts to be reasonably expensive and 0:12:00.598 --> 0:12:04.408 certainly be a lot more expensive than buying the computer. 0:12:04.408 --> 0:12:06.388 And that's why I say to people that you really 0:12:06.388 --> 0:12:10.948 need to get access, particularly for education and for for workplaces, 0:12:11.398 --> 0:12:14.008 that what you're getting is going to do the job 0:12:14.008 --> 0:12:16.888 for you and especially 100% the workplace. But of course, 0:12:16.888 --> 0:12:20.578 that's what funding for is through job access for the workplace. 0:12:21.178 --> 0:12:24.658 So for just private personal use, jaws may not be 0:12:24.658 --> 0:12:27.118 the go. One of the other screen readers might be 0:12:27.118 --> 0:12:27.958 the one for you. 0:12:28.228 --> 0:12:31.648 Absolutely. Because, look, most of us that use computers at 0:12:31.648 --> 0:12:35.488 home and we're mainly doing web browsing, we're doing mailing, 0:12:35.488 --> 0:12:38.968 we're doing word processing, but they're not horrendous things. We're 0:12:38.968 --> 0:12:43.558 not dealing with huge databases or complicated screens for customer 0:12:43.558 --> 0:12:46.738 service systems. And that's where it gets much more complicated 0:12:46.738 --> 0:12:51.568 in the workplace or doing statistical programs, doing a PhD 0:12:51.598 --> 0:12:54.948 or a higher education or mathematics and so on. So 0:12:54.958 --> 0:12:58.858 for home use, I don't think realistically people need jaws. 0:12:58.858 --> 0:13:02.878 I think Nvda, your narrator is quite good for those 0:13:02.878 --> 0:13:03.778 sort of purposes. 0:13:04.078 --> 0:13:06.358 The best way to get hold of these products in 0:13:06.358 --> 0:13:07.618 Australia can help. 0:13:08.038 --> 0:13:11.458 That's right. So you can contact the ATI helpdesk at 0:13:11.458 --> 0:13:15.928 Vision Australia to get support in the use and installation. 0:13:15.928 --> 0:13:18.118 And if you like training with the screen readers and 0:13:18.118 --> 0:13:21.238 screen magnifiers and so on. You can also contact the 0:13:21.238 --> 0:13:26.698 Vision Store to purchase licenses for both Jaws or Zoom 0:13:26.698 --> 0:13:30.088 Text or buy for them. Fusion. Because what you tend 0:13:30.088 --> 0:13:32.338 to do with this stuff, you download the software first, 0:13:32.368 --> 0:13:34.798 which will then be in the demo mode, and you 0:13:34.798 --> 0:13:38.008 then buy a license. And the license when you run 0:13:38.008 --> 0:13:39.628 these programs, comes up and says, do you want to 0:13:39.628 --> 0:13:40.798 run it as a demo or do you want to 0:13:40.798 --> 0:13:43.678 activate it? And that's the license that you would purchase 0:13:43.678 --> 0:13:45.088 from Vision Australia. 0:13:45.598 --> 0:13:47.998 And just before we go, a reminder of where people 0:13:47.998 --> 0:13:50.578 can find details of everything you've been talking about in 0:13:50.578 --> 0:13:52.528 this and previous editions of the program. 0:13:52.798 --> 0:13:55.318 Indeed. So as always, you can check out my blog site, 0:13:55.318 --> 0:14:00.088 which is David Wood Beer dot Podbean pad bin com. 0:14:00.268 --> 0:14:06.418 David would be our podbean podbean to right to the program. 0:14:06.628 --> 0:14:08.758 You can write to me at Business Radio where I work, 0:14:08.758 --> 0:14:13.198 which is David Dot Woodbridge how it sounds at Vision Australia. 0:14:13.438 --> 0:14:18.058 Org David Dot Woodbridge at Vision Australia. Org this has 0:14:18.058 --> 0:14:20.878 been talking tech with me has been Vision Australia's national 0:14:20.878 --> 0:14:25.708 advisor on access technology David Woodbridge I'm Stephen Jolley. Stay safe. 0:14:25.708 --> 0:14:27.328 We'll talk more tech next week. See you.