S1: From Vision Australia. This is talking vision. And now here's
S1: your host Sam Colley.
S2: Hello, everyone. It's great to be here with you. And
S2: for the next half hour we talk matters of blindness
S2: and low vision.
S3: Some of the organizations that we in Utopia talk to say, yeah, yeah,
S3: we test our stuff with Nvda, but they know what
S3: they can see on the screen so they know what
S3: is happening and should come out. Whereas if you get
S3: somebody who relies on Nvidia, for instance, to run through
S3: as a new user, if you like, then that experience
S3: can be quite different from the tech person checking it.
S3: And they wrote it and they know exactly what's inside
S3: it and what to expect.
S2: Welcome to the program. This week we catch up with
S2: Andrew Archer from Intopia, who you heard there. Now Intopia
S2: has been involved with quite lengthy discussions with the Australian
S2: Human Rights Commission around a recent set of updated guidelines
S2: regarding ways that digital resources can be made even more
S2: accessible for users with disabilities, including blindness and low vision.
S2: That conversation is coming up very shortly, so make sure
S2: to stick around. And then after that, you'll hear from
S2: optometrist Greeshma Patel, who's here to chat to us about
S2: an eye condition known as presbyopia, as well as some
S2: recent findings related to the condition. I hope you'll enjoy
S2: this week's episode of Talking Vision. In recent weeks and months,
S2: the Australian Human Rights Commission have updated their series of
S2: guidelines regarding best practices for digital accessibility, often aligning with
S2: the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, but they go further than that.
S2: They also focus on making digital content and experiences perceivable, operable,
S2: understandable and robust for all users, including those with disabilities.
S2: And one of the organizations that was central to giving
S2: their feedback and insights on how to make the guidelines
S2: as effective as possible was Intopia. And it's my great
S2: pleasure to welcome Andrew Arch from Intopia, their principal digital
S2: accessibility consultant, to Talking Vision. Andrew, welcome to Talking Vision.
S2: Thank you very much for your time.
S3: Thank you for inviting us.
S2: Now firstly, Andrew, let's go to the heart of things
S2: and have a bit of a chat about the guidelines themselves.
S2: So tell us about the guidelines.
S3: Guidelines have been updated by the Australian Human Rights Commission
S3: because it was recognised that the previous version and we
S3: were up to version 4.1, I think it was, um,
S3: we're ten years, 11 years old now and their title
S3: gives that away. They were called, um, access for under
S3: the World Wide Web. We don't even call it the
S3: World Wide Web anymore, just the web. But digital accessibility
S3: has become all pervasive, or digital access has become all pervasive.
S3: You know, we've got apps, we've got software, we've got
S3: all sorts of social media platforms. Everything you do requires
S3: you to have some sort of nearly everything you do
S3: requires you to have some sort of digital access these days.
S3: And so it was in recognition of that all pervasive
S3: requirement for digital access that made the commission look at it.
S3: It's time to update this from just the World Wide Web,
S3: which is sort of where we got started with digital
S3: stuff in many respects some decades ago to digital is everywhere.
S3: That was the the driver for putting this update together.
S3: And the commission approached us in late 2023. Well, they
S3: put it out to tender and we were the people
S3: who were selected to do that in late 2023 to
S3: develop this update, which was released in April this year.
S3: So it took about an 18 month time frame to
S3: write those and go through all the consultation processes and
S3: review processes.
S2: Tell us a bit about those processes, Andrew, and specifically
S2: your and Netapp's involvement with the composers of the guidelines
S2: and with the Commission and your feedback and insights.
S3: A couple of us in Intopia had been working on
S3: a pro-bono version of this for a couple of years prior, primarily, um,
S3: put together by a group of people, um, being run
S3: by Greg Allchin from Service New South Wales. Some of
S3: you listeners may know of Greg Olsen, and in fact,
S3: you know, he'll be an interesting person for you to
S3: get on board in terms of all the work he's
S3: done inside the New South Wales Government to drive digital
S3: accessibility there. Be worth a chat at some stage if
S3: you get that opportunity. But the commission said we haven't
S3: got a formal process here. We need to create a
S3: formal process for updating the note rather than this piecemeal. Yes,
S3: it might get done. Process. So we we had a
S3: draft that we'd been participating in, um, to work with
S3: when the commission decided it needed to go to market
S3: to formalise the whole process. And Intopia was engaged to
S3: write the document, basically. So we had a starting point
S3: with that material that Greg Olsen had put together. But
S3: we also worked with the commission to say, okay, what
S3: did they want to see in it and how should
S3: it be structured? So we were in fact, we ended
S3: up drafting some of the earlier legal stuff as well,
S3: but that went through a lot of internal review and
S3: rewriting inside the commission, and we took responsibility to write
S3: the more technical side, the more standard side, the more
S3: how should organisations do this? So that process took, as
S3: I said, 18 months overall. And so, you know, one
S3: of the things that we did was we set up
S3: some advisory groups to two different advisory groups, one looking
S3: at the technology side and one looking at the impact
S3: on the user. So we had a some representative user representatives,
S3: people who relied on technology and having it accessible, as
S3: well as some organizations that represented people with disability. So
S3: we had people who sort of do the technical stuff
S3: and people who rely on on the outcome of that
S3: as two different technical advisory, two different advisory groups. The
S3: commission was also inputting into the process, particularly, as I said,
S3: on the legal side, but they were relying on us
S3: and the advisory groups to sort of write the what
S3: should be included, when should it be considered? We also
S3: went out for a public comment at one point and
S3: got quite some quite good feedback on that. Interestingly, some
S3: of the comment that came back in the public feedback
S3: was tell us exactly what to do. Well, these are
S3: guidelines and we can't tell everybody exactly what to do,
S3: they need to make that decision by themselves. But, you know,
S3: that was one of the bits of feedback that was
S3: interesting but not surprising to get. We went through probably
S3: 6 or 7 drafts overall throughout that process and some restructuring,
S3: as we worked out better ways to present a better
S3: order to present it. The commission had quite a bit
S3: of input into that, and so we ended up breaking
S3: it up into three different chapters. You know, one that's
S3: more looking at the legal stuff, one that was looking
S3: at the more broadly how to and then one that
S3: final chapter that was looking at, okay, what are the
S3: standards um, from standards Australia, from government, from industry and
S3: other things that people should be looking at to adhere
S3: to the idea of breaking it up into those three
S3: sections was that we hope it as a modular set
S3: of guidance. It can be updated more frequently. And, you know,
S3: that's that's the problem with the law. Now, the law
S3: doesn't mention because it's 1992 pre-digital pre-web, unless you happen
S3: to be working in SRO, CSIRO or in university at
S3: the time. It's very hard to update the law. It's
S3: much easier to update guidance under the law. So the
S3: Commission is hopeful that it'll be able to keep this
S3: more up to date. The way that we structured this
S3: set of guidelines versus the way that the previous notes
S3: about the World Wide Web accessibility had been written. That's
S3: sort of the process that we went through.
S2: Fair enough. And Andrew, what's been the biggest advantages from
S2: Interpares point of view that have come out of the
S2: new iteration of the guidelines? What's been the most pleasing aspect?
S3: I think the way that we've called it out, because
S3: a lot of people talk about the web content accessibility guidelines,
S3: which are sort of the international standard that we all
S3: start with and say, yeah, but that only applies to
S3: online services to our websites and our web services. I
S3: think the big thing here is that through this, the
S3: commissioner has called out that this applies not just to
S3: anything online with a browser interface, but to digital books,
S3: learning materials, emails, games, mobile applications, even. You know, we
S3: call that things like two factor authentication, that type of issue. Um,
S3: virtual reality, you know, extended reality, augmented reality as we
S3: call it, digital wallets, anything that touches digital and has
S3: a digital interface of some sort to it through a
S3: screen is in scope of the DDA and calling that
S3: out so that people can't say, oh, the Web content
S3: Accessibility guidelines are just about web. Yep. Okay. We don't
S3: need to worry about them for this. So, you know,
S3: we're also getting, you know, organizations saying, you know, we
S3: also need to look at the stuff we've got internally
S3: in our organization to support our staff, like the HR system,
S3: the payroll system, and so on. So that's that's some
S3: of the changes that we see being a big win
S3: across the board.
S2: Andrew, I'd love to focus on a bit of a
S2: blindness and low vision aspect. In particular, I want to
S2: talk about the advances in things like jaws, things like
S2: zoom text, things like Nvda, all those sort of magnification
S2: screen readers, and also guidelines around alt text and image descriptions.
S2: What's been the big things from that side of thing
S2: that people can look forward to reading about more in
S2: the guidelines, given the advances in 11 years, with all
S2: those sort of little bits and pieces.
S3: Oh, a lot of that software has come a long way,
S3: and some of it's starting to use AI now, artificial
S3: intelligence built into it, which is an advantage but also
S3: a disadvantage. The other flip side of that is the
S3: way that some organizations are using plug ins to try
S3: and solve their accessibility problem, that rely on artificial intelligence
S3: and artificial intelligence in that respect isn't mature enough. But
S3: from the assistive technology side of it, you know, one
S3: of the things that we're seeing and that we've emphasised
S3: in this new guidance is that it's not just about
S3: getting it technically right, it also has to work for users.
S3: So making sure that people or encouraging strongly encouraging people
S3: to undertake usability testing with people with. With disability who
S3: are using assistive technologies. I mean, some of the organizations
S3: that we in Edutopia talk to say, yeah, yeah, we
S3: test our stuff with Nvda, but they know what they
S3: can see on the screen so they know what is
S3: happening and should come out. Whereas if you get somebody
S3: who relies on Nvidia, for instance, to run through as
S3: a new user, if you like, then that experience can
S3: be quite different from the tech person checking it. And
S3: they wrote it and they know exactly what's inside it
S3: and what to expect from, you know, how the screens
S3: were put together, how the text was written, how the
S3: services are meant to be interacted with. They've got that
S3: inside knowledge. That means that they're not testing it, even
S3: though they might be running a screen reader over it.
S3: They're not testing it to the extent that means that
S3: it's usable by somebody. They just testing that. Yep. I'm
S3: getting the right sort of output here from what I expect,
S3: which is very, very different from doing usability testing. So
S3: one of the things that the guidelines are saying also
S3: is you've got to consider accessibility from the start of
S3: a tech project. And you've got to make sure that
S3: after you've got it technically correct, you've tested it, that
S3: it's actually usable, and then you've got to make sure
S3: that all your maintenance considers accessibility as well, because we've
S3: always seen, you know, over time, you know, little tweaks happen,
S3: pages get rewritten, an image gets changed, and the alt
S3: text is not updated, for instance. Um, you know, it
S3: still talks about on the florist site, the roses for
S3: Valentine's Day, whereas they've changed it over to chrysanthemums for
S3: Mums Day, but didn't change the the alt text saying,
S3: you know, red roses versus white chrysanthemums, that type of
S3: thing we're talking now about in these guidelines about the
S3: whole entire length of the project from conception to maintenance
S3: or even retirement. So that's from the assistive tech perspective
S3: that becomes important that those considerations are considered early, not
S3: just the technical risk considerations, but then those, um, assistive
S3: tech are tested not just by somebody who knows what
S3: the product should do, but by people who are going
S3: to rely on using that assistive tech to interact with
S3: that organization.
S2: I'd love to touch back on that discussion you're having
S2: before about the increased modularity and the increased flexibility of
S2: these new guidelines in terms of being more receptive and
S2: being able to react in quicker time to advances in
S2: digital access, in assistive technology and technology more broadly, really.
S2: So from your perspective, what's the biggest things for people
S2: to be aware of? Organizations in charge of things like
S2: these guidelines to be aware of in upcoming months and
S2: years relating to these areas of accessibility?
S3: Australia tends not to develop too many standards for accessibility
S3: through standards Australia. What we tend to do, because we're
S3: a small player internationally is adopt some of the international standards.
S3: And so one of the standards that we adopted back
S3: in 2016 for the first time was something called accessibility
S3: requirements for ICT products and services. So that's a standard
S3: that has gone through various iterations under Standards Australia through adoption.
S3: And we've updated that adoption half a dozen times, probably
S3: maybe five times since we first adopted it, because the
S3: Europeans have updated their version. So by having that in
S3: a separate chapter in this document means that we can
S3: refer to the latest versions of this which are going
S3: to stand up, make things more accessible, because rather than
S3: relying on something that might have been hardwired, if you like,
S3: into the guidelines, hopefully, you know, those chapters that are
S3: about best practice can be updated more frequently as practice
S3: changes and expectations change. But then the chapters that refer
S3: to both government standards and international standards that we've adopted,
S3: that should be the underpinning for what people meet, as
S3: a minimum, will also be updated on a regular basis,
S3: so that we can make sure that those can be
S3: kept current, rather than referring to wcaG two, for instance,
S3: which has gone through wcaG 2.1 and wcaG 2.2 over
S3: the last ten years as well. And, you know, the
S3: note wasn't kept up to date because of the way
S3: it was written. So that modularity, we hope, will enable
S3: the Commission to keep this current.
S2: Now finally, Andrew, what's the best way for people to
S2: find out more about the guidelines or have a look
S2: through some other resources that are available for people through
S2: intopia around digital accessibility.
S3: So in conjunction with the Commission, we put together a
S3: page of resources, and that page of resources would allow
S3: people to go and actually listen to Rosemary, the Disability
S3: Discrimination Commissioner, talking about the guidelines on the day that
S3: they were released. We ran a webinar. We then ran
S3: a webinar about a month later asking people to come
S3: and ask some questions, because we didn't have the time
S3: in the first webinar to do that. So both of
S3: those are recorded and are available from our resources page
S3: at intopia. That's probably the best starting point, and it
S3: points to the commissioner's press release as well as to
S3: the guidelines as well as to some other resources. So
S3: that's probably the best place to go and have a look.
S3: But if you go straight to the Human Rights Commission's
S3: homepage and go to disability rights, you'll find the guidelines
S3: themselves there. And they've been published in HTML, in word
S3: and in PDF in an accessible well, as accessible as
S3: PDF can be and accessible PDF. So depending on whether
S3: people want to download and have a print copy, or
S3: they want to read them online and how they want
S3: to do that, there's three different formats there for people
S3: to read.
S2: Perfect. Well, I've been speaking today with Andrew Arch, principal
S2: digital accessibility consultant at Intopia, about the guidelines on equal
S2: access to digital goods and services. Andrew, thank you very
S2: much for your time today. It's been great to catch
S2: up with you and have a chat about the guidelines.
S3: Great, and hopefully we can do something similar in the future.
S2: I'm Sam Corley and you're listening to Talking Vision on
S2: Vision Australia Radio. Associated Stations of Reading Radio and the
S2: Community Radio Network. I hope you enjoyed that conversation there
S2: with Andrew Arch from Intopia. If you missed any part
S2: of that conversation with Andrew or you'd love to hear
S2: it again. Talking vision can be found on the Vision
S2: Australia Radio website. Simply head to Viva Radio. That's all.
S2: One word dot. Or you can find the program on
S2: the podcast app of your choice or through the Vision
S2: Australia library. New research shows that nearly three quarters of
S2: Australians aged 35 to 50 have never heard of a
S2: common age related eye condition called presbyopia, which is likely
S2: causing their vision issues. Individuals rely on temporary fixes to cope.
S2: Masking the condition and delaying timely diagnosis and treatment. Optometrists
S2: are urging people to watch out for workarounds and if
S2: they find themselves enlarging text, holding print at arm's length,
S2: or having trouble seeing the dashboard when driving, particularly at night,
S2: it's time to book an eye test and to have
S2: a chat with me all about this. I have Greeshma Patel,
S2: Specsavers optometrist, here to tell us all about presbyopia and
S2: the new research Greeshma. Welcome to Talking Vision. Thank you
S2: very much for your time today.
S4: Thanks, Dan.
S2: Now, firstly, Greeshma, can you tell us more about the
S2: new research findings?
S4: So Specsavers have done a national survey which has recently
S4: found that a really common eye I condition that affects
S4: adults is actually something that a lot of adults aren't
S4: aware of. Up to 72% of adults don't realize that
S4: they're going through these midlife changes when they occur. So
S4: I want to draw attention today to the fact that presbyopia,
S4: which is this eye condition that affects a lot of
S4: people around 40 years old, is quite normal. And I
S4: want to go through some points on how to look
S4: out for it and what to do if you start
S4: noticing symptoms.
S2: What are the risks associated with undiagnosed presbyopia?
S4: So I'll start by explaining what presbyopia is, and then
S4: we can have a look at the risks. Because presbyopia
S4: is essentially when your lens inside the eye just doesn't
S4: work as well when it's trying to focus on a
S4: near object. So what that means is your long distance
S4: vision may still feel good, and you may still see
S4: things clearly. But when you go to pick up your
S4: phone to read or you pick up a book, you
S4: may notice that your vision isn't as clear or as
S4: comfortable as it used to be. Now, the risks associated
S4: with presbyopia if it's undiagnosed, untreated, if we're not doing
S4: anything about it and we're just putting up with this
S4: strain when we're reading, is that possibly you misread your
S4: medication labels? You may misread ingredients when you're at the supermarket,
S4: and especially with certain contrast on labels, if you're not
S4: looking at black on white, if you're looking at white
S4: writing on a colored label, you may find that you
S4: make mistakes. So those people that have allergies or sensitivities
S4: that are trying to avoid certain ingredients in foods could struggle.
S4: But I'd say more importantly, it's medication bottles and important instructions.
S4: If you can't read, you'd be struggling and mistakes happen there.
S2: And greeshma what are some common misconceptions or some signs
S2: that often lead people to overlook conditions like presbyopia?
S4: So I see this all the time, Sam. So a
S4: lot of misconceptions about presbyopia and other eye conditions is
S4: that if I go to see my optometrist because I'm
S4: having this problem with reading. I'll end up getting glasses
S4: and they will make my eyes worse. And that's not true.
S4: So glasses can't make your eyesight worse. In fact, something
S4: like presbyopia is a condition that occurs with or without intervention.
S4: So the lens goes through natural changes as we age.
S4: And unfortunately, I have to use that term, even though
S4: we're talking about this happening in our 40s, the lens
S4: starts to harden. In fact, it starts hardening a little
S4: bit before that. But a lot of my patients will
S4: notice that they're struggling to see things around the time
S4: of their 40s. And this is a working age group.
S4: So people that are using computers, they're reading documents, they're
S4: on their phones and they're looking at detail. If we're
S4: not picking up on these signs and symptoms early, it
S4: slows you down at work. And it's where mistakes are made.
S4: And it's just a harder day and actually ultimately can
S4: cause headaches. But the most common misconception around this is
S4: if I start wearing glasses, it's a downward slippery slope
S4: and I'm going to need glasses forever, and it's going
S4: to make my eyes worse. And I just want to
S4: dispel that myth.
S2: Greeshma why is it so important to have regular eye tests,
S2: especially as Australians do get older?
S4: So two parts of that, Sam actually. So Australia is
S4: a place that we have a lot of UV exposure
S4: and a lot of the time from childhood years. So
S4: with a lot of UV exposure comes the risk of
S4: developing UV related conditions. And with the eyes we're talking
S4: about early stages of cataracts or macular degeneration. These are
S4: conditions that can be exacerbated by UV exposure. So over time,
S4: it's important to understand your risk and understand whether these
S4: have impacted the eyes, whether it has impacted the eyes.
S4: Things like smoking can cause premature problems with eyes as well,
S4: and certain health conditions like diabetes. So having these tests done,
S4: having your eyes tested from an early age, even before
S4: you start noticing symptoms is really useful because if there
S4: is something to monitor, we can do that in optometry now,
S4: especially at Specsavers, we offer 3D retinal scan called Oct scanning,
S4: which is really useful in the diagnosing and detecting eye
S4: conditions a lot earlier than if we were just to
S4: not present grotesque, but certainly if we were to use
S4: traditional methods. So things like glaucoma and macular disease can
S4: be picked up a lot sooner. Just need to present yourself.
S4: And eye tests are bulk billed these days, so there's
S4: no charge, no cost to you. Just popping in for
S4: a test for clarinet is useful, and especially if you're
S4: having symptoms, don't hang about. Go and get your eyes tested,
S4: because sometimes what seems as though it could be a
S4: very simple focusing problem could actually be an underlying eye condition.
S4: And this is where we want to pick these things
S4: up early.
S2: On that note. Finally, grishma, where can Australians go to
S2: learn more? Or to book an eye test.
S4: So you can pop onto our website Specsavers. Com.au. A
S4: list of common eye conditions are on their stores that
S4: you can book in for an eye examination. An opportunity
S4: to talk to cut your Medicare card in there. So,
S4: you know it's going to be bulk billed and there's
S4: probably a Specsavers close to you wherever you are or
S4: within reasonable distance. So hopefully we're widely accessible. So pop
S4: in when you can. And if you're walking past a
S4: practice and you're not sure if you'll get that chance
S4: again because you're busy, just pop in on the off chance.
S2: Well, I've been speaking today with Grishma Patel, optometrist at Specsavers.
S2: Chatting to me today about presbyopia and the ways that
S2: it can be treated. Greeshma thank you so much for
S2: your time today. It was great to catch up with you.
S4: Thank you Sam.
S2: For the first time, people across Australia are participating in
S2: a national survey radio and you designed to capture the
S2: real impact of community radio. The results will inform discussions
S2: with government decision makers, helping to secure future support and
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S2: listener to Vision Australia Radio or any other community radio
S2: organisation and you'd love to have your say, this is
S2: the perfect opportunity to do so. Simply head to the
S2: Vision Australia Radio Facebook page and Search Radio and you
S2: to find out all about the survey and the link
S2: to take part. The survey closes on the 30th of June,
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S2: say and get involved. Any support you can offer would
S2: be fantastic. So make sure to spread the word if
S2: you haven't taken part in the survey already. Also, jump
S2: in and have your say and let people know who
S2: might also be interested to have their say about the
S2: future of community radio in 2025. And that's all the
S2: time we have for today. You've been listening to Talking Vision.
S2: Talking vision is a Vision Australia radio production. Thanks to
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S2: That's talking vision all. One word at Vision Australia. But
S2: until next week it's Sam Culley saying bye for now.
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