S1: Nothing's off limits, things off limits, bringing together experts and
S1: people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love
S1: to avoid but absolutely need to talk about. Made with
S1: the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages
S1: and capacity building grants, including grants.
S2: Hello and welcome to the series where nothing's off limits.
S2: My name is Polly and together with my co-host Tess,
S2: over 10 episodes will be exploring some of those topics
S2: which we might usually consider off limits and discussing them
S2: openly and honestly and through the specific lens of blindness
S2: and low vision. Remember, you can download this podcast from
S2: the Vision Australia website. Just go to Vision Australia dot
S2: org type. Nothing's off limits into the search engine, and
S2: you'll be directed to a web page where you can
S2: listen to this and earlier episodes and do make sure
S2: you subscribe to make sure you don't miss any or
S2: if you prefer. In this episode, we are talking about
S2: some of the issues specific to having low vision, and
S2: I particularly like to thank those of you who suggested
S2: this topic to us when we were researching what we
S2: should cover in these podcasts. One person who got in
S2: touch talked about the sometimes uncomfortable sensation of being in
S2: between not blind but not sighted, and like, you never
S2: quite fit anywhere. Vision Australia estimates that of the eighty
S2: four thousand people in Australia who are blind or have
S2: low vision, approximately 10 percent are blind, whereas a staggering
S2: 90 percent have low vision. And yet you've told us
S2: that often people have a hard time understanding the idea
S2: that there is a spectrum of vision loss and what
S2: it means when you have some vision, but that vision
S2: is compromised in some way. What are the specific challenges
S2: you might face if you have low vision? And how
S2: do you navigate the literal and metaphorical obstacles of seeing differently?
S2: I guess today agreeing going to share some of their experiences,
S2: as well as some of the strategies they've developed to
S2: enable themselves and others to get their heads around the
S2: concepts and realities of having low vision? We asked you,
S2: have you ever thought you are not blind enough and
S2: got some really interesting answers?
S1: Nothing's off limits. With Tess and Polly Polly, have you
S1: ever thought you're not blind enough?
S3: No, I haven't. But I wish others would recognise that
S3: I am blind and ask to do some of the
S3: things that I need to do to get by in life.
S3: Sometimes when I get on a bike without my cane
S3: or I'm walking around the shops without an ID game
S3: and I'm staring at things, they look at me only
S3: because I'm not blind enough to be obviously blind, especially
S3: during COVID. And when I'm in a supermarket looking for
S3: some chocolate, I'll be up 14 chocolate bars to find
S3: the one that I want to buy. And everybody is
S3: looking at me going, Why is this guy touching 14
S3: chocolate bars and you hold them up to your nose?
S3: So it's not immediately obvious that I'm visually impaired. So complex. Yeah,
S3: I wish I'm more blind. Yeah, but I wish it
S3: was more obvious to others. That's a better answer.
S1: Yes. And it's quite challenging when you're not really sure
S1: what kind of box you fit into. Are you? Low vision,
S1: are you legally blind? Was the sort of where do
S1: you fit within the spectrum? It's worked to a disadvantage
S1: if I'm trying to get assistance or support from the
S1: government where you don't fit into the best blind category
S1: because you don't fit within the threshold. Actually, I've been
S1: told I'm not blind enough. I applied for a job
S1: as a disability presenter at the BBC. They were looking
S1: for people
S4: with disabilities to present programs to increase
S1: representation. Frankly, I did it with contact lenses and instead
S1: of the Big Coke bottle bottom glasses and I was
S1: told No, so you don't know, disabled enough. But on
S1: the other hand, I talk to people all the time
S1: who try and get them to tell their stories who
S1: who say it is much worse than mine, and I've
S1: had a much tougher time than me, so I really
S1: consider myself lucky for the partial sight that I have.
S5: Yes. How long have you got for me to this long?
S5: I think I mentioned earlier that I use a cane
S5: and I still have some vision, so I have very
S5: low vision. And so when I'm using my cane because
S5: it tells me all sorts of information like how close
S5: things are to me and where steps are and how
S5: deep they are and all those sorts of things, which
S5: is why I need it. People automatically assume as soon
S5: as I'm using the cane that I have absolutely no
S5: vision and I've never had any vision and it's really weird.
S5: Sometimes I feel like I need to pretend that I'm
S5: more blind than I am in order for it to
S5: not have other people be really confused or think I'm
S5: some kind of weird fraud that likes to go around
S5: using a cane just for the fun of it. Yeah.
S5: And I get really bizarre experiences with this all my life,
S5: like trying to get a plane and explain to them
S5: that you might just need a little bit of assistance
S5: knowing where the gates are and that you're not able
S5: to read any of the signage. So could they please
S5: just give you some good directions results in you being
S5: manhandled into a cart and driven around and led everywhere,
S5: even though you might? Over and over again that you
S5: have some vision and you're able to walk just fine
S5: and you just need them to tell you where to go.
S5: They seem to not be able to hear this. And
S5: then you find that you just pretend that you're more blind.
S5: I remember sitting on a plane going fine, I'm tired.
S5: I'm over this. I'll just pretend I'm completely blind. So
S5: I'm not a little boy. You need to do another
S1: little bundle of Bailey's would really help. You're listening to
S1: nothing's off limits. We're tense and poorly produced by Vision
S1: Australia radio.
S2: It's now time to welcome our first guest. Tony Scott
S2: has actually been told that he's quote, not blind enough.
S2: He was also a gold medallist in the blind championship bowling.
S2: He's retired and we're delighted to have him with us today. Tony,
S2: thanks for being here.
S6: Great to be here from sunny Port Macquarie, which is
S6: pouring down rain. Oh no,
S2: me. Oh, that's not good. Tony, my first question is
S2: what is your vision loss and when have you been
S2: told that you're not blind enough?
S6: Well, when I was first classified as legally blind, I
S6: had a lot, lots of trouble on the bowling green. Well,
S6: I was the bowler. And now these days, after working
S6: on all different tricks of the trade and whatnot, the
S6: number of so-called able bodied bowlers that say to me
S6: that you're not blind because you can still bowl close
S6: to the kidney, whereas if I don't do that well,
S6: maybe you should have a look through my eyes to
S6: see what I can see. I started to lose my
S6: eyesight about 20 years ago, and this gradually started, but
S6: it was a funny situation where it started on the
S6: left eye and then I'd lose a bit of eyesight
S6: and then it, it stopped. And then the ride I
S6: would start to catch up. And then once they got
S6: level again, the left eye would then start again and
S6: then the right eye. And it was sort of going
S6: back and forth until basically it sort of levelled off.
S6: I still keep going back and getting a check every
S6: 12 months just to see whether it's improving or not,
S6: because you just learn to deal with what you've got.
S2: How did that feel then having low vision yourself and
S2: dealing with the challenges associated with that and then being
S2: told that you weren't supposedly blind enough? It's a very
S2: strange phrase, isn't it?
S6: The funniest thing I can always remember when I first
S6: lost my eyesight, though, I was that the Vision Australia
S6: shop in Bendigo, getting some aid to help me through
S6: a general day to day proposition, and they suggested that
S6: I wear a badge that I am visually impaired. And
S6: I said, Well, why the heck would I want to
S6: promote that? I am disabled or with low vision for
S6: the rest of the world and every day? Now that
S6: I think of that, I think I wish I had
S6: it got one of those badges because people just don't
S6: think that your vision impaired. They basically say that there's
S6: two degrees of blindness. You're either totally blind or you
S6: can see there's no bearing.
S2: It sounds like there's a real lack of understanding in
S2: the wider community about how vision loss manifests itself. Have
S2: you encountered that outside of bowling?
S6: Very much so. I keep saying my able body, but
S6: with the people that can see there seems to be.
S6: The general consensus is that people are either anti or
S6: they can't see. There's no degrees of various other oddly
S6: totally blind, but they can see.
S2: So in realising that we have these community misconceptions. What
S2: advice would you give for people who are low vision
S2: who are just beginning to deal with these misconceptions? What
S2: are some any any tricks of the trade that you've
S2: learned to
S6: cope with that? Well, a lot of it, you just
S6: learn naturally, you do what your eyesight will allow you
S6: to do. You know, reading papers to with, like I said,
S6: has gone out the door because I just can't read
S6: for print anymore. So it's the matter now that I
S6: watch the news on TV, even the TV I do.
S6: I sort of started to get bigger and bigger TVs,
S6: and I'd start moving the chair closer and closer and
S6: closer to the screen because I couldn't read the print
S6: that was on the TV. So I go out and
S6: get a bigger telly, though. So now I've got a
S6: really big telly and the take goes back again. And
S6: I know that when my eyesight starts to fail a
S6: bit more again, the chair will start moving closer and
S6: closer to the telly in my. I don't have time
S6: to go back to the doctor. I'm stressed and get
S6: the eyes checked again.
S2: And have you found, you know, when people have said
S2: that you're quote, not blind enough, have you found that
S2: talking to them about your low vision and explaining it
S2: to them?
S6: Has that helped in bowls, for example, this sport of
S6: classifications of blindness, you basically go from here legally blind
S6: after you're totally blind and there's a couple of classifications
S6: in the middle of it. So I like to explain
S6: the four different classifications just to educate people because unless
S6: it affects them directly, they just don't know.
S2: Tony, thank you so much for joining us. I think
S2: your words will really resonate with a lot of people
S2: in the same situation. Thank you.
S6: If I may say to people that are losing their sight,
S6: don't let it get you down. Learn to deal with
S6: what you've got. Use what you've got. Don't think what
S6: you've lost what you still have.
S2: We had so many people we wanted to bring on
S2: to talk about this, that we're changing up a bit
S2: and devoting the rest of the program to bringing together
S2: a panel of guests who are elevation to share their
S2: experiences and strategies. First on the panel is Michael Linky,
S2: now a general manager at Vision Australia. Michael has forged
S2: a career in the sighted world, often feeling that he
S2: is not blind enough and often stuck on a diet
S2: of markets because that's a menu he knows. Michael, we're
S2: going to ask you more about that later. And joining
S2: Michael is Andrew Moffat. Andrew is a mediator and academic
S2: at Melbourne Law School. Legally blind in the UK, Andrew
S2: has lived with low vision from birth and only since
S2: he joined the Board of Vision Australia and now as
S2: chair as he becomes slightly more comfortable talking about it. Welcome, Andrew.
S4: Yeah, thanks for asking me to join in today.
S2: We are delighted to welcome back Samantha Hardie as a
S2: Service Connect officer. She performs a vital role connecting people
S2: with support and services. Samantha is herself flirtation and sometimes
S2: came new to welcome everyone. Maybe we'll start with a
S2: question to all of you. Do you think that most
S2: people understand that there is a spectrum of vision loss? Michael,
S2: maybe we start with you.
S4: From my experience, Polly, I'd say no. People think that
S4: we put braille on something, and anyone who has a
S4: vision impairment can read braille. You've got that spectrum of
S4: people who are totally blind. Some do. Some don't read
S4: braille through to people like the three of us here
S4: today who have varying different types of eyesight in different
S4: conditions and different circumstances. I don't think there is a
S4: broad understanding in the whole community that there is this
S4: spectrum of people with limited vision all the way up
S4: to total blindness. So my take on this question really
S4: is either I look incredibly stupid or people don't understand
S4: the spectrum because the number of times people say, Do
S4: you know, mate? Possibly you should consider getting glasses. I mean,
S4: I must look really, really thick because it feels to
S4: me that that would have been probably Plan A. If
S4: it was fixable like that.
S2: Andrew, how does that make you feel normally cross?
S4: But I check myself quite quickly because I think actually
S4: demonstrated that one of the two of the people in
S4: the discussion is stupid, and it's probably not me.
S2: Samantha, how about you?
S7: I would agree with the other two and also just
S7: say 100 percent. I agree that people don't get that.
S7: There's a spectrum. It's like you're blind or your sighted
S7: and there's nothing in between. And I think that's why
S7: it's so confusing when when you're someone that say might
S7: be using a cane but has some vision, you might
S7: be some sort of strange fraud. Like maybe I go
S7: around using a cane for fun or something. I don't know.
S7: It's very strange, and it's hard to deal with because
S7: you feel like you either have to explain yourself all
S7: the time or you somehow you have to pretend that
S7: maybe you're blind and then you are just to get
S7: things done.
S2: Samantha, you mentioned feeling the need sometimes to pretend to
S2: be almost more blind than you are feeling like a
S2: little bit of a fraud sometimes. Do you think there's
S2: a pressure to conform to an idea of blindness?
S7: I would say both, depending on the day. Some days
S7: I really like to defy it, but it does take
S7: more energy and more effort to do that, and you
S7: do get more of a push back. So on other
S7: days when I'm not feeling up for that, it's a
S7: strange sort of dance to be out in the world
S7: using a cane. And what happens with me is that
S7: I can see people's reactions to the cane and they'll
S7: make faces at me, or some do dares and jump
S7: over the cane or or
S5: so weird,
S7: weird things. And it's very strange. It's good to point
S7: out that if someone does break your cane when you're
S7: out and about and you have really low vision, you
S7: might not be able to get home very easily.
S4: And we've all seen the meme of people with their
S4: iPhones in one hand using a cane in the other,
S4: which is the future that some people have predicted. And
S4: I notice that a lot. I'm a sometimes cane user
S4: like Samantha, and people will bump into you on their
S4: phone and look at you thinking you're the stupid one
S4: until they see the kind of go or hang on
S4: a sec. Maybe I'm the stupid one. And yes, you
S4: shouldn't be using your mobile phone as you're walking down
S4: the street, are you?
S7: Well, I was up until a couple of months ago
S7: living in the CBD in Melbourne, very, very busy and
S7: under non-COVID times and just trying to navigate with people
S7: on their phones and assuming that the person in front
S7: of them will get out of their way is really challenging.
S7: And then often they would sort of look at you
S7: with surprise when when you bump into them, like, what?
S7: What are you doing?
S2: And that's a really interesting point. And COVID and the
S2: whole kind of social physical distancing as it technically is,
S2: has that brought any specific problems because there's a lot
S2: of assumptions that you're able to see where people are
S2: 1.5 metres away and you're able to look sort of
S2: through perspex screens and new things from a distance? Has
S2: that caused you additional problems over the last 18 months?
S7: It's tricky for me to use the the COVID sign
S7: in app, I think with the technology that I use.
S7: So that's been a challenge to explain to people that
S7: I have to sign in or off, and I have
S7: to give them my details rather than sign some. So
S7: that's been really challenging.
S4: I look I'll put a vote in for one positive
S4: aspect of COVID with some as restaurants reopen lots of
S4: the move to online menus. And that's really good because
S4: a normal menu, I mean, you know, typical restaurant, you know,
S4: especially at night time, romantic dim lighting, what have you
S4: and really small writing. And I'm terrified that I'm going
S4: to end up inadvertently buying the expensive wine or out
S4: or the dish with cauliflower. But but but quite often
S4: now because of, you know, sanitation reasons, then I can
S4: look at the zap, zap the menu up and then
S4: pinch it up and read it much more easily on
S4: my phone. So there's been some positives in that respect.
S7: Speaking of menus, Michael, you
S2: have said off air that you that sometimes you don't
S2: want the next generation of kids to be always having
S2: to go to Machias because they don't want to have
S2: to go across the road and ask what's on the menu?
S2: What held you back from asking? And what would be
S2: some advice for someone who might want to try out
S2: something you like? I don't know. Nando's roll it. I mean,
S2: there's so many places. I mean, Mac is great, isn't it?
S4: On July, my Mac because I enjoy a bit of
S4: bit of Nando's these days as well, but more so
S4: in my younger days when I wasn't a cane user
S4: and the reaction I'd get in a restaurant or a
S4: takeaway food place when you said, I can't see the menu.
S4: Can you eat it and they look at you as
S4: if you hadn't been to school, you hadn't done reading,
S4: writing and arithmetic, and you couldn't be bothered reading the
S4: menu and they had to stand there and read this menu, too.
S4: And then you'd explain about your eyesight and they look
S4: at you and go with no cane. There's no guide, dog. Well,
S4: what I started doing is once you learn a menu,
S4: you think, Well, you know, as a teenager growing up,
S4: it's just much easier to go into Mac because I
S4: know it's there. I'm going to be back on Sunday.
S4: You find yourself just going to those places, you know,
S4: and routine is is really important. One of the strategies
S4: that I've used over my life is that routine. So
S4: as negative is that images of just going to McDonald's
S4: all the time with limited eyesight. Once you've worked out
S4: a routine, it becomes very easy and travel is one
S4: of those things or getting from from place to place
S4: B is one of those things that you can do
S4: and you can use that. But in that scenario, it's
S4: very bad. And I don't want kids today being fearful
S4: because my experience now later in life is that once
S4: you explain your situation, most people are willing or able
S4: to obviously able to help. But they're sometimes also embarrassed
S4: that they didn't notice or they weren't willing to help
S4: initially and don't be be destined to a lifetime of eating.
S4: Macca's is delicious,
S2: and this is just for the podcast. But tell me, Michael,
S2: when you explain to people and they get all embarrassed,
S2: do you get a free McFlurry out of it?
S4: I had an experience of Irvine with my cane. Actually,
S4: it was a flight from Brisbane recently and the gentleman
S4: was sitting in my seat and I had the window
S4: seat and he looked at me and said, Well, you're
S4: blind mate just to sit in the aisle seat. And
S4: I said, No, no, no, no, I want to look
S4: out of the window. So I get the odd window
S4: seat from from time to time. But I've never had
S4: an old three McFlurry from McDonald's, so maybe I need
S4: to ask one.
S2: Isn't it strange? You can really baffle people when I'm
S2: going for a walk around College Crescent in Melbourne, people
S2: are like, Oh, where are you going in circles? You
S2: need help. I said, No, no, no, I'm just taking
S2: in the scenery. It baffles, so you really don't know
S2: what to do.
S4: Well, this guy had no idea. He jumped out of
S4: his seat quick, smart and moved across to the aisle
S4: seat and allowed me to sit in the window seat
S4: and I progressed to stare out the window. There was
S4: an eight p.m. flight, so it was dark as well.
S2: I want that with the bottle. Well, Michael, I'm going
S2: to completely undercut your message. Sorry, because I'd love to
S2: hear Andrew's story where I think you took a more
S2: confrontational approach in a pub that maybe didn't have quite
S2: such a positive outcome for you.
S4: I happened to be in a pub in London. I
S4: really love English beer, and it's invariably better with the
S4: right flavour of crisps. But you know, unfortunately that's not
S4: been standardised. So I'm there and there's lots of crisp packets,
S4: but they're kind of, you know, behind and I couldn't
S4: see them. And I think probably realistically, this was before smartphones,
S4: because what I do now is pull my phone out,
S4: kind of take a sneaky picture, pinch it up and
S4: work it out that way, you know, I did. The
S4: only other thing I could do, you know, provide a
S4: better place and can I can you tell me what
S4: crisps you have? Any kind of turned around kind of
S4: waved his arm with an expansive gesture and said they're
S4: they're made. Are you blind? Ordinarily, you know, I draw it.
S4: But as it happens, I had fairly recently been signed
S4: up as a registered blind person by the city of Westminster,
S4: and I had this blind person's card, which I was
S4: intending to pretend didn't exist. But I thought, No, this
S4: is I'm standing in front of an open goal here, so.
S4: So I said, funnily enough, mate, yes. And which is
S4: exactly why I asked you. So I pulled out my
S4: card anyway. He looked suitably ashamed, as you might expect,
S4: and I thought this feels like a win. It was
S4: a completely pyrrhic victory because he was so embarrassed that
S4: he couldn't make eye contact with me for the rest
S4: of the night. I could have caught fire in front
S4: of the bar. He would have not looked at me so.
S4: And not only did I after that struggle with Chris,
S4: but I couldn't even get my beer refilled, so I've
S4: been somewhat more circumspect since then. I used the ID
S4: cane from time to time, and it's sporadic use. I
S4: strategically use it now when I know I'm going to
S4: encounter a situation that will require me talking to someone yesterday.
S4: When I was flying from the airport, I left my
S4: face mask in the cab and I walked into the
S4: airport without a face mask and I thought, Oh jeez,
S4: I'm going to look a bit stupid here. But I
S4: grabbed McCain and I wandered over to the Qantas counter
S4: and said, I've lost my face mask and it was
S4: a happy cheer. Here you go. Do you need any
S4: help putting the face mask on? And I don't know
S4: whether I would have got a similar response had I
S4: not had a cane. We need to use the tools
S4: when they're available as in, you know, when you go
S4: into a shop not necessarily asking for for Christmas, but
S4: looking for chocolate or breakfast cereal or whatever it is
S4: in a local shop. Getting my phone out to read
S4: all the labels. But then people look at you again
S4: because the phone's an inch from my nose and the
S4: phone is an inch from the the packet of food
S4: that I'm looking at to try to work out what
S4: I'm buying. So it's not always obvious. And I think
S4: with some other disabilities, there is that obvious myself and
S4: the most obvious one is a wheelchair. It is immediately
S4: obvious that the person either can't walk or has difficulty
S4: walking where blindness and other sensory disabilities. It's not immediately obvious,
S4: and the tools that we use are varied to some
S4: of those tools a portable summer in the workplace somewhere
S4: at home. There's a range of tools that we can use,
S4: and they're not always obvious to the third party looking on.
S4: So and I don't think people invariably want to wear
S4: a badge or a hat saying, Hey, I'm visually impaired
S4: or a T-shirt saying I'm visually impaired. But that may
S4: actually be the solution.
S2: Who knows a whole range of merchandise? Hey, I'm vision impaired. Yeah,
S2: but
S4: if I can jump in on this one, though, it's,
S4: you know, I'm kind of listening to this and almost
S4: feeling slightly guilty. But I'm going across this panel. I
S4: think I've got the least bad eyesight mine slightly better
S4: than Michael's. Not much, and I think my eyesight is
S4: probably materially better than Samantha's, I would guess. I don't
S4: know in terms of acuity numbers, but as an observation
S4: that seems to be the case, I'm feeling guilty because
S4: I'm thinking, Well, you know, maybe I'm letting down the
S4: kind of, you know, community by not evidently signifying my
S4: low vision all the time. But honestly, my major strategy
S4: is to be selective as to let people know I
S4: have low vision. And, you know, in my day job,
S4: very often people hand me, you know, sheets of paper
S4: printed often and in probably small font because they only
S4: have an A4 printer. So they hit the fit all
S4: columns to page button on Excel. And it's a question
S4: for me then to us, OK, do I then pull
S4: out one of the very many range of magnifies that
S4: I have in my bag? Or do I say, Look,
S4: just talk me through it, give me the, you know,
S4: give me the key points. And it's a it's a
S4: it's a decision that I actively make all the time. So,
S4: you know, to an extent, I think I'm quite situational
S4: as to whether I disclose or not. If I do,
S4: I do. And as Michael says, you know, if I'm
S4: in the supermarket, if I'm reading something, it's pretty obvious.
S4: But in a professional context, I may not want it
S4: to be obvious. In which case I may find a
S4: way of not reading things and, you know, finding other
S4: ways around them if I can.
S2: And Samantha, you mentioned that you use a cane. Is
S2: there anything else that really helps you?
S7: I agree with everything everyone else is saying. I'm sort
S7: of in two minds that I tend to switch between
S7: not really wanting to let people know that I have
S7: vision impairment. And it's not wouldn't be clear to anyone
S7: that was observing me, probably in a public situation to
S7: using a cane and maybe a mobile phone that's speaking
S7: instructions to me or something, which makes it more obvious.
S7: And I have this conversation with clients a lot as well,
S7: where they they'll often opt to take up an ID
S7: cane to make it easier for them to be out
S7: in public, for instance, to go into a shopping mall
S7: or to get public transport. And at that point, for them,
S7: it may not be that they necessarily need a full
S7: mobility cane, but the cane just helps them to feel
S7: more safe in the community, with people knowing that their
S7: vision impaired.
S2: Is there any sense of a hesitancy about accepting an
S2: ID cane? Because it is, I guess, kind of a
S2: physical demonstration of accepting your low vision?
S7: I think the has to decide hesitancy is around people's
S7: reaction to the cane once you bring it out, more
S7: so than people accepting whether or not they need one
S7: because the cane isn't doesn't really give you very much information.
S7: So it's really just, as the name implies, to let
S7: other people know that you have a vision impairment. But
S7: I think people can really react to it quite strongly.
S7: So it can be a bit confronting when you first
S7: bring it out and all of a sudden, you know,
S7: people are reacting.
S4: That's the thing with the cane. It's intermittent use where
S4: a directional cane or mobility cane is used all the
S4: time and I'd cane and I'll use my idea can
S4: win the circumstance permit. So if I go to a
S4: game of football and there's a big crowd around, I
S4: don't feel comfortable in the big crowd. I'm not going
S4: to find the stairs or I'm not going to see
S4: the barriers in the bollards in your way because there's
S4: a big crowd there. So I get the cane out.
S4: So people are aware that I'm the one with the
S4: vision impairment and they should take it out of my
S4: way because if I bump into them, it's not my fault.
S4: It's probably, therefore, I think that situation will use and
S4: then people will look at you and go, Well, you
S4: had a cane out 10 minutes ago. Now you don't
S4: have one hour or you're sitting at the football and
S4: you're watching the football through a pair of binoculars like
S4: everybody else. You clearly can see, so are you a fraud?
S4: And I think that that's the issue that that some
S4: users have. With that I'd cane because it's in and
S4: out of your bag all the time.
S7: I often wonder about that if if, say, for instance,
S7: someone is commuting with me to work and they. See,
S7: someday say you have my cane and some days I
S7: don't know whether they're thinking to themselves what is going
S7: on here.
S4: Like, she's had a heavy night last January today.
S5: I thought she was blind and now she's not blind.
S2: It's a miracle. Are there any other tips and tricks
S2: you've come up with, either helping people understand your situation
S2: or slipping past it?
S7: These days, I have an abbreviated version, which would be
S7: just to say to someone, I have no vision, I
S7: have some science. But maybe if you could just tell
S7: me what's on the border, that's really all I need.
S7: I find if I say something like that, it's sort
S7: of without going into much more detail than that. It
S7: narrows it down.
S4: The Boston airport, I notified that I was visually impaired
S4: and I needed assistance from gate to gate because I've
S4: never been to Boston before, and the assistance it turned
S4: up was a wheelchair and the gentleman said, I'm here
S4: to assist you. And I looked at him. I said, Mate,
S4: it's the eyes that don't work. The legs are fine.
S4: He's just walking up to the gate and I walk
S4: with him with the wheelchair. So yeah, sometimes when you
S4: ask for that assistance, people aren't fully aware of what
S4: assistance you need. And I think Samantha's strategy, they're being
S4: specific about what help you need. I need the time
S4: table read or I need directions. If you give me
S4: a left right 50 meters, give me some directions I'm
S4: okay to to locate that. And if you struggle like
S4: me to even acknowledge that you have any eyesight issues,
S4: if you can avoid doing that, I mean, quite often
S4: you don't need to. So I mean, if you go
S4: to the restaurant classically, you know, you can talk about
S4: the specials, you know, you can you suggest a wine
S4: that goes well with that you never even need to
S4: see a wine list. You know, you go to museum.
S4: I happened to be visiting my old university. There's a
S4: new museum that's just appeared. And, you know, I asked
S4: them to explain to me what the things are. So,
S4: you know, I didn't need to be able to demonstrate
S4: that I couldn't read the signs or anything of that nature. So,
S4: so quite often, you know, if whether you choose to
S4: disclose that you've got a visual impairment or not. Lots
S4: of people are very willing to communicate verbally with you.
S4: If you ask them, actually, then your motivation for doing
S4: that doesn't ever need to be disclosed. If you don't
S4: want it to be getting up close to the paintings
S4: at museums, sometimes Andrew alert security that you might interview.
S4: You might be a thief or you are visually impaired.
S4: Did that indicate
S7: if you're going to try and see the plaque suddenly found?
S4: So that that's that's definitely true. But I do remember
S4: once going to an impressionist museum in an exhibition in London,
S4: it was one of those ones where there were a
S4: million people going every day and you had to get
S4: tickets and you had a two and a half minute
S4: window to see a thousand paintings and. And everyone said,
S4: you know, you can only really appreciate it if you're
S4: standing really far back. And I thought, Well, I don't
S4: have that problem.
S2: Be viewing.
S4: I got close to Starry Night in the museum in
S4: New York once and for security guards came rushing over
S4: and I waved my kind of my way. Oh, it's OK. Okay, cool.
S4: Don't breathe on it.
S2: They say I've been known to pot crowds with my cane.
S2: They they just scatter. They're terrified of it. I don't
S2: know what they think is going to happen,
S7: but apparently they're it's a very terrifying thing
S2: that can be
S4: their handy weapon.
S2: Sometimes Typekit things really are. I don't know how many
S2: bus drivers I've whacked around the ankles with my cane,
S2: but there are few. And how many of those times
S2: have been accidental test? No, many, not many, I have
S2: to tell you. So our final question will segway us
S2: quite nicely into our next episode, which is on community
S2: and identity? I'll throw this open to anyone who wants
S2: to jump in first. And the question is, how connected
S2: do you feel as someone who has low vision with
S2: the community who's totally blind?
S4: I feel very connected. I've been my vision, my whole life,
S4: and I've played blind sports and vision impaired sports. A
S4: number of my friends today are from that and their
S4: low vision, as well as totally blind and obviously working
S4: for a blindness agency such as Vision Australia, who does
S4: a fantastic job in the community. There is significant connectedness
S4: with people here. Started 50 per cent of our staff,
S4: a low vision or totally blind. So I feel connected
S4: with the community about I think I need to get
S4: McCain out more and get off McDonald's.
S2: Samantha, how about you?
S7: I think I would answer that by saying I feel
S7: as connected as I want to be. I don't think
S7: I completely identify, you know, my whole personality as being
S7: a vision impaired person. I'm many things, so I think
S7: I feel as connected as I like to be, which
S7: is fairly connected. But it's not my entire identity.
S2: And Andrew, I'm
S4: going to have to answer this in the hope that
S4: nobody actually from Vision Australia listens to this, and I
S4: think that type is probably unrealistic. Given my role as chair.
S4: I'm connected with the organization, the blindness community, because I
S4: was asked to take a governance role here. So that
S4: does give me a connection with the blindness community. But
S4: as much as as a teenager, I was a client
S4: of the low vision clinic in Kooyong. So I have,
S4: in fact, as a teenager, been a client. But for me, yes,
S4: my eyesight has been what it is stable since birth,
S4: so I haven't needed, I suppose, to be part of
S4: the blindness community at all. And I'm very aware in reality,
S4: and I have this discussion with Vision Australia's deputy chair,
S4: Bill Jolley, who's a mathematician, let's say, you know, statistically, Bill,
S4: I'm told I've got 15 per cent eyesight, but 100
S4: per cent I'm relying on vision. I live in a
S4: visual world. You know, I look at things now I'm. Questionably,
S4: I use my hearing. I rely on my hearing more
S4: than I would if my eyesight were perfect. No doubt
S4: about that, but for the most part, I feel the
S4: way I interact with the world around me is much
S4: closer to the people with 100 percent eyesight than the
S4: people with zero. I use things to fill in the
S4: bit that I don't have. But so, so consequently. I mean,
S4: I'm very engaged. I've got, of course, a huge personal
S4: mission to help blind people, and I'm in awe of
S4: how people who can't see anything at all interact with
S4: the world. But honestly, I don't think that my low
S4: vision gives me any material insight into the extraordinary way
S4: people live if they can't see it all. I really don't.
S4: I'd love to say something different, but I think that's
S4: my personal truth.
S2: When we've talked about kind of, I guess, people understanding
S2: low vision, it's kind of been most of the answers
S2: have been around from a sighted perspective. Do you think
S2: people who are completely blind understand what it's like to
S2: be low vision?
S4: I don't see how they can. I think I've got
S4: a number of totally blind friends who have been blind
S4: since birth and explaining colour to them. I can see color,
S4: I can see blue, I can see pink. I'm not
S4: very good at matching clothes and my wife helps in
S4: that regard. I don't think that's got anything to do
S4: with sight. I think that's a lot to do with taste.
S4: I'd rather go out and look like Ronald McDonald someday.
S4: But yeah, how do you describe color to someone who
S4: has no sight? As Andrew said, We live in a
S4: sighted world, so I think that is difficult to do. So, yeah,
S4: I think it's a very hard thing to do and
S4: we can't imagine because that's what people say. Just close
S4: your eyes and you can imagine what it's like to
S4: be born where you can't because you can visualize a tree,
S4: a bird, a car, a color, a shape with someone
S4: who's been blind since birth cannot visualize a color or
S4: a bird or a shape in that other than the
S4: tactile experience that they've had that they've learned through their hands,
S4: but they haven't had the advantage of visually seeing that
S4: in a three dimensional space.
S2: Samantha, what about you?
S7: I'm going to say something maybe slightly different here. Well,
S7: I think what I'm really interested in around this topic
S7: is not so much. Always the same question is what
S7: can't people see and what can't they do? But how
S7: do people who are blind or vision impaired experience the
S7: world differently, like sometimes some of the things they experience
S7: are quite wonderful and quite diverse, and I find that
S7: really interesting.
S4: Something interesting that Samantha just said around experiencing the world different.
S4: I'm a photographer and people look at me sometimes sideways
S4: when I go. You're a photographer. Hang on. You can't
S4: see what's going on. And I've got nice camera gear
S4: and I take photos, but I take those photos because
S4: I can't experience the world as my sighted counterparts can.
S4: My wife can stand there and look at, you know,
S4: the Empire State Building, and she can see the detail
S4: of the architecture. And I love architecture. I'm very interested
S4: in architecture. She can see all that and I can't
S4: see it. It's just a blurry object, you know, towering
S4: in front of me. So I take photos of that
S4: and then later on, review those photos on a large
S4: screen computer and zoom them up. And, you know, have
S4: a look at them and understand the detail. Then I
S4: can have a conversation with my wife on an equal footing.
S4: Did you see this carved stone? Did you see that
S4: there was a plaque here on the fourth floor with
S4: a testament to this person? Or did you see the
S4: window dressing in this window? She can see all that
S4: in the experience that she had during the day. I
S4: don't see that too. Later on in the afternoon when
S4: I'm reviewing the photos or the next day and you know,
S4: I went to all the rue recently and everybody standing
S4: and wow, look at them is wrong. It's fantastic. And
S4: I'm going where where they is right in front of you.
S4: You can see this, this massive rock. And it's only
S4: when I took photos that I started to understand the
S4: textures and the colors and how wonderful all the room
S4: is as a as a monolith to have a look at.
S4: So I think what tested there, what Samantha said is
S4: just right on the money, right on the money. I'm
S4: one of the things that I think we need to
S4: do if we're going to be in a with limited
S4: vision in the world. We're making kind of educated guesses
S4: about what something is or who somebody is. You know,
S4: that person kind of looks like it may well be
S4: John or Jane, that restaurant that place, what have you.
S4: That car looks like it's probably a taxi, so I'm
S4: going to put my arm out whatever it might be.
S4: And you know what? Quite often those educated guesses are wrong,
S4: and I'm really sorry, Jane, you. I'm really sorry. You
S4: look like somebody. I know we do that. I mean,
S4: that's inevitable. You either sit tight until you've got certainty,
S4: but you withdraw yourself from the world or you, you
S4: kind of muddle through. But inevitably you make lots of
S4: mistakes on the way. And when you've got low vision
S4: and it's not obvious, I mean, if you blind people or,
S4: you know, cut you some slack, I suspect. But if
S4: you don't look like you've got a particular impairment, then
S4: those mistakes people assume you're an idiot. It takes some time.
S4: I mean, you need to have a fairly, I think,
S4: thick skin because you will make lots of those mistakes
S4: and you look like a bit foolish sometimes. But but
S4: I think people should acknowledge that because it's either that or,
S4: as I say, just take yourself onto the sidelines for
S4: lots of things.
S2: I think that's a fantastic note to end on. Guys,
S2: thank you so much to our wonderful panel.
S4: Thank you. Thanks very much.
S2: Thank you. Thanks, everyone. This has been a wonderful episode
S2: about being quote, not blind enough. So many great insights.
S2: And remember, this podcast can be downloaded. By the Vision
S2: Australia website, just go to Vision Australia dot org and
S2: type and nothing's off limits into the search engine you
S2: redirected to our web page and do subscribe because you
S2: don't want to miss any episodes, and you can view
S2: this episode and early ones or if you prefer. Just
S2: tune in to Vision Australia radio. Next time, we'll be
S2: bringing another panel of guests together to delve further into
S2: the question of identity and community and explore the tricky
S2: topic of disclosure. But meantime, thank you again to our
S2: wonderful guests, and thank you for joining us for the
S2: show where nothing's off limits.
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