WEBVTT - Nothings off Limits - When you don’t feel blind enough. (Ep9) 0:00:03.940 --> 0:00:08.170 Nothing's off limits, things off limits, bringing together experts and 0:00:08.170 --> 0:00:11.469 people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love 0:00:11.470 --> 0:00:14.950 to avoid but absolutely need to talk about. Made with 0:00:14.950 --> 0:00:19.150 the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages 0:00:19.150 --> 0:00:21.970 and capacity building grants, including grants. 0:00:23.650 --> 0:00:27.500 Hello and welcome to the series where nothing's off limits. 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.580 My name is Polly and together with my co-host Tess, 0:00:30.580 --> 0:00:33.850 over 10 episodes will be exploring some of those topics 0:00:33.850 --> 0:00:37.000 which we might usually consider off limits and discussing them 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.479 openly and honestly and through the specific lens of blindness 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.780 and low vision. Remember, you can download this podcast from 0:00:43.780 --> 0:00:47.019 the Vision Australia website. Just go to Vision Australia dot 0:00:47.020 --> 0:00:50.020 org type. Nothing's off limits into the search engine, and 0:00:50.020 --> 0:00:51.729 you'll be directed to a web page where you can 0:00:51.729 --> 0:00:54.640 listen to this and earlier episodes and do make sure 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:56.740 you subscribe to make sure you don't miss any or 0:00:56.740 --> 0:00:59.890 if you prefer. In this episode, we are talking about 0:00:59.890 --> 0:01:02.920 some of the issues specific to having low vision, and 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:05.289 I particularly like to thank those of you who suggested 0:01:05.290 --> 0:01:07.720 this topic to us when we were researching what we 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:10.330 should cover in these podcasts. One person who got in 0:01:10.330 --> 0:01:14.170 touch talked about the sometimes uncomfortable sensation of being in 0:01:14.170 --> 0:01:17.140 between not blind but not sighted, and like, you never 0:01:17.140 --> 0:01:21.370 quite fit anywhere. Vision Australia estimates that of the eighty 0:01:21.370 --> 0:01:24.160 four thousand people in Australia who are blind or have 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:28.060 low vision, approximately 10 percent are blind, whereas a staggering 0:01:28.060 --> 0:01:31.119 90 percent have low vision. And yet you've told us 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:34.120 that often people have a hard time understanding the idea 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:36.520 that there is a spectrum of vision loss and what 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:38.740 it means when you have some vision, but that vision 0:01:38.740 --> 0:01:41.709 is compromised in some way. What are the specific challenges 0:01:41.709 --> 0:01:44.020 you might face if you have low vision? And how 0:01:44.020 --> 0:01:47.820 do you navigate the literal and metaphorical obstacles of seeing differently? 0:01:47.830 --> 0:01:50.470 I guess today agreeing going to share some of their experiences, 0:01:50.500 --> 0:01:52.690 as well as some of the strategies they've developed to 0:01:52.690 --> 0:01:55.030 enable themselves and others to get their heads around the 0:01:55.030 --> 0:01:58.180 concepts and realities of having low vision? We asked you, 0:01:58.210 --> 0:02:00.430 have you ever thought you are not blind enough and 0:02:00.430 --> 0:02:02.290 got some really interesting answers? 0:02:02.740 --> 0:02:12.340 Nothing's off limits. With Tess and Polly Polly, have you 0:02:12.340 --> 0:02:14.140 ever thought you're not blind enough? 0:02:14.350 --> 0:02:18.460 No, I haven't. But I wish others would recognise that 0:02:18.460 --> 0:02:20.560 I am blind and ask to do some of the 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:22.570 things that I need to do to get by in life. 0:02:22.810 --> 0:02:26.290 Sometimes when I get on a bike without my cane 0:02:26.290 --> 0:02:29.769 or I'm walking around the shops without an ID game 0:02:29.889 --> 0:02:32.350 and I'm staring at things, they look at me only 0:02:32.350 --> 0:02:35.980 because I'm not blind enough to be obviously blind, especially 0:02:35.980 --> 0:02:37.780 during COVID. And when I'm in a supermarket looking for 0:02:37.780 --> 0:02:40.270 some chocolate, I'll be up 14 chocolate bars to find 0:02:40.270 --> 0:02:42.280 the one that I want to buy. And everybody is 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:44.680 looking at me going, Why is this guy touching 14 0:02:44.710 --> 0:02:47.130 chocolate bars and you hold them up to your nose? 0:02:47.139 --> 0:02:51.130 So it's not immediately obvious that I'm visually impaired. So complex. Yeah, 0:02:51.130 --> 0:02:53.560 I wish I'm more blind. Yeah, but I wish it 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:56.049 was more obvious to others. That's a better answer. 0:02:56.380 --> 0:03:00.790 Yes. And it's quite challenging when you're not really sure 0:03:00.790 --> 0:03:04.929 what kind of box you fit into. Are you? Low vision, 0:03:04.930 --> 0:03:08.279 are you legally blind? Was the sort of where do 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:13.089 you fit within the spectrum? It's worked to a disadvantage 0:03:13.090 --> 0:03:16.480 if I'm trying to get assistance or support from the 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:20.650 government where you don't fit into the best blind category 0:03:20.650 --> 0:03:24.400 because you don't fit within the threshold. Actually, I've been 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.760 told I'm not blind enough. I applied for a job 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.610 as a disability presenter at the BBC. They were looking 0:03:30.610 --> 0:03:31.269 for people 0:03:31.270 --> 0:03:33.519 with disabilities to present programs to increase 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.490 representation. Frankly, I did it with contact lenses and instead 0:03:36.490 --> 0:03:39.220 of the Big Coke bottle bottom glasses and I was 0:03:39.220 --> 0:03:42.040 told No, so you don't know, disabled enough. But on 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:44.380 the other hand, I talk to people all the time 0:03:44.380 --> 0:03:46.960 who try and get them to tell their stories who 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:48.640 who say it is much worse than mine, and I've 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.580 had a much tougher time than me, so I really 0:03:51.730 --> 0:03:54.550 consider myself lucky for the partial sight that I have. 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:59.230 Yes. How long have you got for me to this long? 0:04:01.060 --> 0:04:04.060 I think I mentioned earlier that I use a cane 0:04:04.060 --> 0:04:06.250 and I still have some vision, so I have very 0:04:06.250 --> 0:04:09.580 low vision. And so when I'm using my cane because 0:04:09.580 --> 0:04:12.670 it tells me all sorts of information like how close 0:04:12.670 --> 0:04:15.010 things are to me and where steps are and how 0:04:15.010 --> 0:04:17.260 deep they are and all those sorts of things, which 0:04:17.260 --> 0:04:20.530 is why I need it. People automatically assume as soon 0:04:20.529 --> 0:04:23.229 as I'm using the cane that I have absolutely no 0:04:23.230 --> 0:04:25.870 vision and I've never had any vision and it's really weird. 0:04:25.870 --> 0:04:28.780 Sometimes I feel like I need to pretend that I'm 0:04:28.779 --> 0:04:31.120 more blind than I am in order for it to 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:34.450 not have other people be really confused or think I'm 0:04:34.450 --> 0:04:37.900 some kind of weird fraud that likes to go around 0:04:37.900 --> 0:04:39.930 using a cane just for the fun of it. Yeah. 0:04:40.270 --> 0:04:43.570 And I get really bizarre experiences with this all my life, 0:04:43.570 --> 0:04:46.870 like trying to get a plane and explain to them 0:04:46.870 --> 0:04:49.180 that you might just need a little bit of assistance 0:04:49.180 --> 0:04:52.000 knowing where the gates are and that you're not able 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:54.520 to read any of the signage. So could they please 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:57.370 just give you some good directions results in you being 0:04:57.370 --> 0:05:01.840 manhandled into a cart and driven around and led everywhere, 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:04.640 even though you might? Over and over again that you 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.520 have some vision and you're able to walk just fine 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:10.130 and you just need them to tell you where to go. 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:12.740 They seem to not be able to hear this. And 0:05:12.740 --> 0:05:15.050 then you find that you just pretend that you're more blind. 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:17.660 I remember sitting on a plane going fine, I'm tired. 0:05:17.660 --> 0:05:20.190 I'm over this. I'll just pretend I'm completely blind. So 0:05:20.330 --> 0:05:22.279 I'm not a little boy. You need to do another 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:28.580 little bundle of Bailey's would really help. You're listening to 0:05:28.580 --> 0:05:32.300 nothing's off limits. We're tense and poorly produced by Vision 0:05:32.300 --> 0:05:33.410 Australia radio. 0:05:33.620 --> 0:05:37.250 It's now time to welcome our first guest. Tony Scott 0:05:37.250 --> 0:05:40.880 has actually been told that he's quote, not blind enough. 0:05:40.940 --> 0:05:45.750 He was also a gold medallist in the blind championship bowling. 0:05:45.770 --> 0:05:49.130 He's retired and we're delighted to have him with us today. Tony, 0:05:49.130 --> 0:05:50.120 thanks for being here. 0:05:50.210 --> 0:05:52.640 Great to be here from sunny Port Macquarie, which is 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:54.450 pouring down rain. Oh no, 0:05:54.470 --> 0:05:59.360 me. Oh, that's not good. Tony, my first question is 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:03.080 what is your vision loss and when have you been 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.450 told that you're not blind enough? 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:09.380 Well, when I was first classified as legally blind, I 0:06:09.380 --> 0:06:11.810 had a lot, lots of trouble on the bowling green. Well, 0:06:11.810 --> 0:06:15.440 I was the bowler. And now these days, after working 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:17.930 on all different tricks of the trade and whatnot, the 0:06:17.930 --> 0:06:21.650 number of so-called able bodied bowlers that say to me 0:06:21.650 --> 0:06:24.770 that you're not blind because you can still bowl close 0:06:24.770 --> 0:06:27.740 to the kidney, whereas if I don't do that well, 0:06:27.740 --> 0:06:29.839 maybe you should have a look through my eyes to 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:32.539 see what I can see. I started to lose my 0:06:32.540 --> 0:06:36.279 eyesight about 20 years ago, and this gradually started, but 0:06:36.290 --> 0:06:38.330 it was a funny situation where it started on the 0:06:38.330 --> 0:06:40.430 left eye and then I'd lose a bit of eyesight 0:06:40.430 --> 0:06:42.200 and then it, it stopped. And then the ride I 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:44.030 would start to catch up. And then once they got 0:06:44.029 --> 0:06:46.350 level again, the left eye would then start again and 0:06:46.350 --> 0:06:48.260 then the right eye. And it was sort of going 0:06:48.260 --> 0:06:51.260 back and forth until basically it sort of levelled off. 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:53.420 I still keep going back and getting a check every 0:06:53.420 --> 0:06:55.970 12 months just to see whether it's improving or not, 0:06:55.970 --> 0:06:59.000 because you just learn to deal with what you've got. 0:06:59.089 --> 0:07:02.570 How did that feel then having low vision yourself and 0:07:02.570 --> 0:07:05.240 dealing with the challenges associated with that and then being 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:08.779 told that you weren't supposedly blind enough? It's a very 0:07:08.779 --> 0:07:09.860 strange phrase, isn't it? 0:07:09.950 --> 0:07:12.680 The funniest thing I can always remember when I first 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.970 lost my eyesight, though, I was that the Vision Australia 0:07:15.980 --> 0:07:18.950 shop in Bendigo, getting some aid to help me through 0:07:18.950 --> 0:07:21.650 a general day to day proposition, and they suggested that 0:07:21.650 --> 0:07:23.810 I wear a badge that I am visually impaired. And 0:07:23.810 --> 0:07:25.790 I said, Well, why the heck would I want to 0:07:25.790 --> 0:07:29.060 promote that? I am disabled or with low vision for 0:07:29.060 --> 0:07:31.540 the rest of the world and every day? Now that 0:07:31.550 --> 0:07:33.020 I think of that, I think I wish I had 0:07:33.020 --> 0:07:36.560 it got one of those badges because people just don't 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:39.500 think that your vision impaired. They basically say that there's 0:07:39.500 --> 0:07:42.200 two degrees of blindness. You're either totally blind or you 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:43.460 can see there's no bearing. 0:07:43.700 --> 0:07:46.820 It sounds like there's a real lack of understanding in 0:07:46.820 --> 0:07:50.570 the wider community about how vision loss manifests itself. Have 0:07:50.570 --> 0:07:52.850 you encountered that outside of bowling? 0:07:52.970 --> 0:07:55.610 Very much so. I keep saying my able body, but 0:07:55.610 --> 0:07:58.370 with the people that can see there seems to be. 0:07:58.370 --> 0:08:01.760 The general consensus is that people are either anti or 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:04.250 they can't see. There's no degrees of various other oddly 0:08:04.250 --> 0:08:05.990 totally blind, but they can see. 0:08:06.050 --> 0:08:11.720 So in realising that we have these community misconceptions. What 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.640 advice would you give for people who are low vision 0:08:14.660 --> 0:08:17.840 who are just beginning to deal with these misconceptions? What 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:19.970 are some any any tricks of the trade that you've 0:08:19.970 --> 0:08:20.330 learned to 0:08:20.330 --> 0:08:22.370 cope with that? Well, a lot of it, you just 0:08:22.370 --> 0:08:25.550 learn naturally, you do what your eyesight will allow you 0:08:25.550 --> 0:08:28.550 to do. You know, reading papers to with, like I said, 0:08:28.610 --> 0:08:30.440 has gone out the door because I just can't read 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:33.200 for print anymore. So it's the matter now that I 0:08:33.230 --> 0:08:36.949 watch the news on TV, even the TV I do. 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.500 I sort of started to get bigger and bigger TVs, 0:08:39.500 --> 0:08:41.900 and I'd start moving the chair closer and closer and 0:08:41.900 --> 0:08:44.870 closer to the screen because I couldn't read the print 0:08:44.870 --> 0:08:47.150 that was on the TV. So I go out and 0:08:47.150 --> 0:08:48.949 get a bigger telly, though. So now I've got a 0:08:48.950 --> 0:08:51.530 really big telly and the take goes back again. And 0:08:51.530 --> 0:08:53.510 I know that when my eyesight starts to fail a 0:08:53.510 --> 0:08:55.640 bit more again, the chair will start moving closer and 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:59.060 closer to the telly in my. I don't have time 0:08:59.059 --> 0:09:00.679 to go back to the doctor. I'm stressed and get 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:01.700 the eyes checked again. 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:05.810 And have you found, you know, when people have said 0:09:05.809 --> 0:09:08.420 that you're quote, not blind enough, have you found that 0:09:08.420 --> 0:09:11.450 talking to them about your low vision and explaining it 0:09:11.450 --> 0:09:11.950 to them? 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:14.540 Has that helped in bowls, for example, this sport of 0:09:14.540 --> 0:09:18.380 classifications of blindness, you basically go from here legally blind 0:09:18.470 --> 0:09:21.079 after you're totally blind and there's a couple of classifications 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:23.120 in the middle of it. So I like to explain 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:26.870 the four different classifications just to educate people because unless 0:09:26.870 --> 0:09:29.120 it affects them directly, they just don't know. 0:09:29.210 --> 0:09:31.699 Tony, thank you so much for joining us. I think 0:09:31.730 --> 0:09:34.430 your words will really resonate with a lot of people 0:09:34.429 --> 0:09:36.110 in the same situation. Thank you. 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.620 If I may say to people that are losing their sight, 0:09:38.630 --> 0:09:40.760 don't let it get you down. Learn to deal with 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:43.370 what you've got. Use what you've got. Don't think what 0:09:43.370 --> 0:09:44.960 you've lost what you still have. 0:09:48.230 --> 0:09:50.900 We had so many people we wanted to bring on 0:09:50.900 --> 0:09:53.270 to talk about this, that we're changing up a bit 0:09:53.270 --> 0:09:56.089 and devoting the rest of the program to bringing together 0:09:56.090 --> 0:09:58.849 a panel of guests who are elevation to share their 0:09:58.850 --> 0:10:03.170 experiences and strategies. First on the panel is Michael Linky, 0:10:03.170 --> 0:10:06.620 now a general manager at Vision Australia. Michael has forged 0:10:06.620 --> 0:10:09.140 a career in the sighted world, often feeling that he 0:10:09.140 --> 0:10:11.810 is not blind enough and often stuck on a diet 0:10:11.809 --> 0:10:14.630 of markets because that's a menu he knows. Michael, we're 0:10:14.630 --> 0:10:17.540 going to ask you more about that later. And joining 0:10:17.540 --> 0:10:21.770 Michael is Andrew Moffat. Andrew is a mediator and academic 0:10:21.770 --> 0:10:25.010 at Melbourne Law School. Legally blind in the UK, Andrew 0:10:25.010 --> 0:10:27.470 has lived with low vision from birth and only since 0:10:27.470 --> 0:10:29.960 he joined the Board of Vision Australia and now as 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:33.920 chair as he becomes slightly more comfortable talking about it. Welcome, Andrew. 0:10:34.010 --> 0:10:35.840 Yeah, thanks for asking me to join in today. 0:10:35.900 --> 0:10:39.020 We are delighted to welcome back Samantha Hardie as a 0:10:39.020 --> 0:10:42.559 Service Connect officer. She performs a vital role connecting people 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:46.610 with support and services. Samantha is herself flirtation and sometimes 0:10:46.610 --> 0:10:49.880 came new to welcome everyone. Maybe we'll start with a 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.699 question to all of you. Do you think that most 0:10:52.700 --> 0:10:57.020 people understand that there is a spectrum of vision loss? Michael, 0:10:57.020 --> 0:10:57.959 maybe we start with you. 0:10:57.980 --> 0:11:01.250 From my experience, Polly, I'd say no. People think that 0:11:01.260 --> 0:11:03.140 we put braille on something, and anyone who has a 0:11:03.140 --> 0:11:05.840 vision impairment can read braille. You've got that spectrum of 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.270 people who are totally blind. Some do. Some don't read 0:11:08.270 --> 0:11:10.220 braille through to people like the three of us here 0:11:10.220 --> 0:11:13.850 today who have varying different types of eyesight in different 0:11:13.850 --> 0:11:16.819 conditions and different circumstances. I don't think there is a 0:11:16.820 --> 0:11:19.579 broad understanding in the whole community that there is this 0:11:19.580 --> 0:11:22.850 spectrum of people with limited vision all the way up 0:11:22.850 --> 0:11:26.780 to total blindness. So my take on this question really 0:11:26.780 --> 0:11:30.679 is either I look incredibly stupid or people don't understand 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:33.350 the spectrum because the number of times people say, Do 0:11:33.350 --> 0:11:36.470 you know, mate? Possibly you should consider getting glasses. I mean, 0:11:36.650 --> 0:11:39.680 I must look really, really thick because it feels to 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.080 me that that would have been probably Plan A. If 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:43.160 it was fixable like that. 0:11:44.220 --> 0:11:47.260 Andrew, how does that make you feel normally cross? 0:11:47.270 --> 0:11:50.030 But I check myself quite quickly because I think actually 0:11:50.510 --> 0:11:52.339 demonstrated that one of the two of the people in 0:11:52.340 --> 0:11:54.439 the discussion is stupid, and it's probably not me. 0:11:54.950 --> 0:11:56.120 Samantha, how about you? 0:11:56.420 --> 0:11:59.330 I would agree with the other two and also just 0:11:59.330 --> 0:12:02.780 say 100 percent. I agree that people don't get that. 0:12:02.780 --> 0:12:05.840 There's a spectrum. It's like you're blind or your sighted 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.420 and there's nothing in between. And I think that's why 0:12:08.420 --> 0:12:11.450 it's so confusing when when you're someone that say might 0:12:11.450 --> 0:12:14.570 be using a cane but has some vision, you might 0:12:14.570 --> 0:12:17.660 be some sort of strange fraud. Like maybe I go 0:12:17.660 --> 0:12:20.990 around using a cane for fun or something. I don't know. 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:25.070 It's very strange, and it's hard to deal with because 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:27.800 you feel like you either have to explain yourself all 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.490 the time or you somehow you have to pretend that 0:12:31.490 --> 0:12:33.230 maybe you're blind and then you are just to get 0:12:33.230 --> 0:12:33.800 things done. 0:12:33.890 --> 0:12:38.240 Samantha, you mentioned feeling the need sometimes to pretend to 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:42.020 be almost more blind than you are feeling like a 0:12:42.020 --> 0:12:45.199 little bit of a fraud sometimes. Do you think there's 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:49.580 a pressure to conform to an idea of blindness? 0:12:49.610 --> 0:12:52.819 I would say both, depending on the day. Some days 0:12:52.820 --> 0:12:55.640 I really like to defy it, but it does take 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.040 more energy and more effort to do that, and you 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.350 do get more of a push back. So on other 0:13:00.350 --> 0:13:03.650 days when I'm not feeling up for that, it's a 0:13:03.650 --> 0:13:06.890 strange sort of dance to be out in the world 0:13:06.900 --> 0:13:09.890 using a cane. And what happens with me is that 0:13:09.890 --> 0:13:12.740 I can see people's reactions to the cane and they'll 0:13:12.740 --> 0:13:15.920 make faces at me, or some do dares and jump 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:17.600 over the cane or or 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:19.309 so weird, 0:13:19.730 --> 0:13:23.569 weird things. And it's very strange. It's good to point 0:13:23.570 --> 0:13:25.670 out that if someone does break your cane when you're 0:13:25.670 --> 0:13:27.679 out and about and you have really low vision, you 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:29.510 might not be able to get home very easily. 0:13:29.540 --> 0:13:31.850 And we've all seen the meme of people with their 0:13:31.850 --> 0:13:34.309 iPhones in one hand using a cane in the other, 0:13:34.309 --> 0:13:36.979 which is the future that some people have predicted. And 0:13:36.980 --> 0:13:39.380 I notice that a lot. I'm a sometimes cane user 0:13:39.380 --> 0:13:41.540 like Samantha, and people will bump into you on their 0:13:41.540 --> 0:13:43.729 phone and look at you thinking you're the stupid one 0:13:43.730 --> 0:13:45.650 until they see the kind of go or hang on 0:13:45.650 --> 0:13:47.940 a sec. Maybe I'm the stupid one. And yes, you 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.179 shouldn't be using your mobile phone as you're walking down 0:13:50.179 --> 0:13:51.020 the street, are you? 0:13:51.050 --> 0:13:52.850 Well, I was up until a couple of months ago 0:13:52.850 --> 0:13:56.240 living in the CBD in Melbourne, very, very busy and 0:13:56.240 --> 0:14:00.650 under non-COVID times and just trying to navigate with people 0:14:00.650 --> 0:14:03.380 on their phones and assuming that the person in front 0:14:03.380 --> 0:14:06.380 of them will get out of their way is really challenging. 0:14:06.380 --> 0:14:08.450 And then often they would sort of look at you 0:14:08.450 --> 0:14:10.990 with surprise when when you bump into them, like, what? 0:14:11.090 --> 0:14:11.750 What are you doing? 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.620 And that's a really interesting point. And COVID and the 0:14:15.620 --> 0:14:18.790 whole kind of social physical distancing as it technically is, 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:21.800 has that brought any specific problems because there's a lot 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.710 of assumptions that you're able to see where people are 0:14:24.710 --> 0:14:27.619 1.5 metres away and you're able to look sort of 0:14:27.620 --> 0:14:31.070 through perspex screens and new things from a distance? Has 0:14:31.070 --> 0:14:33.950 that caused you additional problems over the last 18 months? 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:38.360 It's tricky for me to use the the COVID sign 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.210 in app, I think with the technology that I use. 0:14:41.210 --> 0:14:43.700 So that's been a challenge to explain to people that 0:14:43.700 --> 0:14:45.590 I have to sign in or off, and I have 0:14:45.590 --> 0:14:48.630 to give them my details rather than sign some. So 0:14:48.630 --> 0:14:49.920 that's been really challenging. 0:14:50.070 --> 0:14:51.930 I look I'll put a vote in for one positive 0:14:51.930 --> 0:14:55.680 aspect of COVID with some as restaurants reopen lots of 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.260 the move to online menus. And that's really good because 0:14:58.260 --> 0:15:01.410 a normal menu, I mean, you know, typical restaurant, you know, 0:15:01.410 --> 0:15:04.500 especially at night time, romantic dim lighting, what have you 0:15:04.500 --> 0:15:06.960 and really small writing. And I'm terrified that I'm going 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.350 to end up inadvertently buying the expensive wine or out 0:15:10.430 --> 0:15:14.550 or the dish with cauliflower. But but but quite often 0:15:14.550 --> 0:15:17.610 now because of, you know, sanitation reasons, then I can 0:15:17.610 --> 0:15:20.250 look at the zap, zap the menu up and then 0:15:20.250 --> 0:15:22.620 pinch it up and read it much more easily on 0:15:22.620 --> 0:15:24.900 my phone. So there's been some positives in that respect. 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.870 Speaking of menus, Michael, you 0:15:28.470 --> 0:15:32.370 have said off air that you that sometimes you don't 0:15:32.370 --> 0:15:34.770 want the next generation of kids to be always having 0:15:34.770 --> 0:15:36.660 to go to Machias because they don't want to have 0:15:36.660 --> 0:15:38.790 to go across the road and ask what's on the menu? 0:15:38.820 --> 0:15:41.610 What held you back from asking? And what would be 0:15:41.610 --> 0:15:44.340 some advice for someone who might want to try out 0:15:44.340 --> 0:15:47.670 something you like? I don't know. Nando's roll it. I mean, 0:15:47.670 --> 0:15:49.920 there's so many places. I mean, Mac is great, isn't it? 0:15:50.010 --> 0:15:51.630 On July, my Mac because I enjoy a bit of 0:15:51.630 --> 0:15:53.940 bit of Nando's these days as well, but more so 0:15:53.940 --> 0:15:56.310 in my younger days when I wasn't a cane user 0:15:56.310 --> 0:15:59.190 and the reaction I'd get in a restaurant or a 0:15:59.190 --> 0:16:01.860 takeaway food place when you said, I can't see the menu. 0:16:01.890 --> 0:16:03.270 Can you eat it and they look at you as 0:16:03.270 --> 0:16:05.940 if you hadn't been to school, you hadn't done reading, 0:16:05.940 --> 0:16:08.369 writing and arithmetic, and you couldn't be bothered reading the 0:16:08.370 --> 0:16:10.630 menu and they had to stand there and read this menu, too. 0:16:10.650 --> 0:16:12.660 And then you'd explain about your eyesight and they look 0:16:12.660 --> 0:16:15.220 at you and go with no cane. There's no guide, dog. Well, 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:17.580 what I started doing is once you learn a menu, 0:16:17.580 --> 0:16:19.920 you think, Well, you know, as a teenager growing up, 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:21.850 it's just much easier to go into Mac because I 0:16:21.850 --> 0:16:23.780 know it's there. I'm going to be back on Sunday. 0:16:23.790 --> 0:16:26.400 You find yourself just going to those places, you know, 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.550 and routine is is really important. One of the strategies 0:16:29.660 --> 0:16:32.700 that I've used over my life is that routine. So 0:16:32.700 --> 0:16:35.820 as negative is that images of just going to McDonald's 0:16:35.820 --> 0:16:38.370 all the time with limited eyesight. Once you've worked out 0:16:38.370 --> 0:16:41.550 a routine, it becomes very easy and travel is one 0:16:41.550 --> 0:16:44.730 of those things or getting from from place to place 0:16:44.730 --> 0:16:46.760 B is one of those things that you can do 0:16:46.770 --> 0:16:49.109 and you can use that. But in that scenario, it's 0:16:49.110 --> 0:16:52.580 very bad. And I don't want kids today being fearful 0:16:52.590 --> 0:16:55.320 because my experience now later in life is that once 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.920 you explain your situation, most people are willing or able 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.130 to obviously able to help. But they're sometimes also embarrassed 0:17:02.130 --> 0:17:04.109 that they didn't notice or they weren't willing to help 0:17:04.109 --> 0:17:08.070 initially and don't be be destined to a lifetime of eating. 0:17:08.070 --> 0:17:09.030 Macca's is delicious, 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.480 and this is just for the podcast. But tell me, Michael, 0:17:12.510 --> 0:17:14.880 when you explain to people and they get all embarrassed, 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:16.570 do you get a free McFlurry out of it? 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.570 I had an experience of Irvine with my cane. Actually, 0:17:21.570 --> 0:17:24.689 it was a flight from Brisbane recently and the gentleman 0:17:24.690 --> 0:17:26.219 was sitting in my seat and I had the window 0:17:26.220 --> 0:17:28.739 seat and he looked at me and said, Well, you're 0:17:28.740 --> 0:17:30.689 blind mate just to sit in the aisle seat. And 0:17:30.690 --> 0:17:32.160 I said, No, no, no, no, I want to look 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.409 out of the window. So I get the odd window 0:17:34.410 --> 0:17:36.239 seat from from time to time. But I've never had 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:38.550 an old three McFlurry from McDonald's, so maybe I need 0:17:38.550 --> 0:17:39.080 to ask one. 0:17:39.090 --> 0:17:41.490 Isn't it strange? You can really baffle people when I'm 0:17:41.490 --> 0:17:43.830 going for a walk around College Crescent in Melbourne, people 0:17:43.830 --> 0:17:45.570 are like, Oh, where are you going in circles? You 0:17:45.570 --> 0:17:47.159 need help. I said, No, no, no, I'm just taking 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:50.310 in the scenery. It baffles, so you really don't know 0:17:50.310 --> 0:17:50.940 what to do. 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:53.939 Well, this guy had no idea. He jumped out of 0:17:53.940 --> 0:17:55.830 his seat quick, smart and moved across to the aisle 0:17:55.830 --> 0:17:57.450 seat and allowed me to sit in the window seat 0:17:57.990 --> 0:17:59.700 and I progressed to stare out the window. There was 0:17:59.700 --> 0:18:01.570 an eight p.m. flight, so it was dark as well. 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.550 I want that with the bottle. Well, Michael, I'm going 0:18:05.550 --> 0:18:09.120 to completely undercut your message. Sorry, because I'd love to 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:11.730 hear Andrew's story where I think you took a more 0:18:11.730 --> 0:18:15.540 confrontational approach in a pub that maybe didn't have quite 0:18:15.540 --> 0:18:16.830 such a positive outcome for you. 0:18:16.869 --> 0:18:19.260 I happened to be in a pub in London. I 0:18:19.260 --> 0:18:22.590 really love English beer, and it's invariably better with the 0:18:22.590 --> 0:18:25.650 right flavour of crisps. But you know, unfortunately that's not 0:18:25.650 --> 0:18:28.409 been standardised. So I'm there and there's lots of crisp packets, 0:18:28.410 --> 0:18:30.899 but they're kind of, you know, behind and I couldn't 0:18:30.900 --> 0:18:34.379 see them. And I think probably realistically, this was before smartphones, 0:18:34.380 --> 0:18:36.210 because what I do now is pull my phone out, 0:18:36.210 --> 0:18:38.070 kind of take a sneaky picture, pinch it up and 0:18:38.070 --> 0:18:39.810 work it out that way, you know, I did. The 0:18:39.810 --> 0:18:41.490 only other thing I could do, you know, provide a 0:18:41.490 --> 0:18:43.469 better place and can I can you tell me what 0:18:43.470 --> 0:18:46.139 crisps you have? Any kind of turned around kind of 0:18:46.140 --> 0:18:48.830 waved his arm with an expansive gesture and said they're 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:52.260 they're made. Are you blind? Ordinarily, you know, I draw it. 0:18:52.260 --> 0:18:55.080 But as it happens, I had fairly recently been signed 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.139 up as a registered blind person by the city of Westminster, 0:18:58.140 --> 0:19:00.540 and I had this blind person's card, which I was 0:19:00.630 --> 0:19:04.290 intending to pretend didn't exist. But I thought, No, this 0:19:04.290 --> 0:19:07.070 is I'm standing in front of an open goal here, so. 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.290 So I said, funnily enough, mate, yes. And which is 0:19:10.290 --> 0:19:12.540 exactly why I asked you. So I pulled out my 0:19:12.540 --> 0:19:15.869 card anyway. He looked suitably ashamed, as you might expect, 0:19:15.869 --> 0:19:17.370 and I thought this feels like a win. It was 0:19:17.369 --> 0:19:20.490 a completely pyrrhic victory because he was so embarrassed that 0:19:20.490 --> 0:19:22.650 he couldn't make eye contact with me for the rest 0:19:22.650 --> 0:19:24.840 of the night. I could have caught fire in front 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:28.230 of the bar. He would have not looked at me so. 0:19:28.260 --> 0:19:30.720 And not only did I after that struggle with Chris, 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:33.030 but I couldn't even get my beer refilled, so I've 0:19:33.030 --> 0:19:38.040 been somewhat more circumspect since then. I used the ID 0:19:38.190 --> 0:19:41.100 cane from time to time, and it's sporadic use. I 0:19:41.100 --> 0:19:43.770 strategically use it now when I know I'm going to 0:19:43.770 --> 0:19:47.130 encounter a situation that will require me talking to someone yesterday. 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:49.030 When I was flying from the airport, I left my 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:51.010 face mask in the cab and I walked into the 0:19:51.010 --> 0:19:53.020 airport without a face mask and I thought, Oh jeez, 0:19:53.020 --> 0:19:54.940 I'm going to look a bit stupid here. But I 0:19:54.940 --> 0:19:57.879 grabbed McCain and I wandered over to the Qantas counter 0:19:57.880 --> 0:19:59.860 and said, I've lost my face mask and it was 0:19:59.859 --> 0:20:01.960 a happy cheer. Here you go. Do you need any 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:03.669 help putting the face mask on? And I don't know 0:20:03.670 --> 0:20:05.949 whether I would have got a similar response had I 0:20:05.950 --> 0:20:08.290 not had a cane. We need to use the tools 0:20:08.290 --> 0:20:10.120 when they're available as in, you know, when you go 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:12.790 into a shop not necessarily asking for for Christmas, but 0:20:12.790 --> 0:20:15.399 looking for chocolate or breakfast cereal or whatever it is 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:17.949 in a local shop. Getting my phone out to read 0:20:17.950 --> 0:20:19.929 all the labels. But then people look at you again 0:20:19.930 --> 0:20:21.820 because the phone's an inch from my nose and the 0:20:21.820 --> 0:20:24.340 phone is an inch from the the packet of food 0:20:24.350 --> 0:20:26.080 that I'm looking at to try to work out what 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:28.600 I'm buying. So it's not always obvious. And I think 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.580 with some other disabilities, there is that obvious myself and 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.000 the most obvious one is a wheelchair. It is immediately 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:37.000 obvious that the person either can't walk or has difficulty 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:42.370 walking where blindness and other sensory disabilities. It's not immediately obvious, 0:20:42.369 --> 0:20:44.800 and the tools that we use are varied to some 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:47.920 of those tools a portable summer in the workplace somewhere 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.980 at home. There's a range of tools that we can use, 0:20:50.980 --> 0:20:54.129 and they're not always obvious to the third party looking on. 0:20:54.130 --> 0:20:56.590 So and I don't think people invariably want to wear 0:20:56.590 --> 0:20:59.350 a badge or a hat saying, Hey, I'm visually impaired 0:20:59.350 --> 0:21:01.780 or a T-shirt saying I'm visually impaired. But that may 0:21:01.780 --> 0:21:02.730 actually be the solution. 0:21:02.740 --> 0:21:06.570 Who knows a whole range of merchandise? Hey, I'm vision impaired. Yeah, 0:21:06.910 --> 0:21:07.130 but 0:21:07.510 --> 0:21:09.639 if I can jump in on this one, though, it's, 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.040 you know, I'm kind of listening to this and almost 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:15.160 feeling slightly guilty. But I'm going across this panel. I 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.500 think I've got the least bad eyesight mine slightly better 0:21:17.500 --> 0:21:19.720 than Michael's. Not much, and I think my eyesight is 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:22.570 probably materially better than Samantha's, I would guess. I don't 0:21:22.570 --> 0:21:25.240 know in terms of acuity numbers, but as an observation 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:27.550 that seems to be the case, I'm feeling guilty because 0:21:27.550 --> 0:21:29.770 I'm thinking, Well, you know, maybe I'm letting down the 0:21:29.770 --> 0:21:33.490 kind of, you know, community by not evidently signifying my 0:21:33.490 --> 0:21:36.850 low vision all the time. But honestly, my major strategy 0:21:36.850 --> 0:21:38.919 is to be selective as to let people know I 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:41.199 have low vision. And, you know, in my day job, 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:44.139 very often people hand me, you know, sheets of paper 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:47.470 printed often and in probably small font because they only 0:21:47.470 --> 0:21:49.570 have an A4 printer. So they hit the fit all 0:21:49.570 --> 0:21:52.720 columns to page button on Excel. And it's a question 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:54.490 for me then to us, OK, do I then pull 0:21:54.490 --> 0:21:57.159 out one of the very many range of magnifies that 0:21:57.160 --> 0:21:59.200 I have in my bag? Or do I say, Look, 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:00.850 just talk me through it, give me the, you know, 0:22:00.850 --> 0:22:02.770 give me the key points. And it's a it's a 0:22:03.070 --> 0:22:06.010 it's a decision that I actively make all the time. So, 0:22:06.100 --> 0:22:09.699 you know, to an extent, I think I'm quite situational 0:22:09.700 --> 0:22:11.770 as to whether I disclose or not. If I do, 0:22:11.770 --> 0:22:13.750 I do. And as Michael says, you know, if I'm 0:22:13.750 --> 0:22:16.300 in the supermarket, if I'm reading something, it's pretty obvious. 0:22:16.330 --> 0:22:18.429 But in a professional context, I may not want it 0:22:18.430 --> 0:22:20.200 to be obvious. In which case I may find a 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:23.320 way of not reading things and, you know, finding other 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:24.550 ways around them if I can. 0:22:24.609 --> 0:22:27.880 And Samantha, you mentioned that you use a cane. Is 0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:29.440 there anything else that really helps you? 0:22:29.590 --> 0:22:32.379 I agree with everything everyone else is saying. I'm sort 0:22:32.380 --> 0:22:36.250 of in two minds that I tend to switch between 0:22:36.250 --> 0:22:38.680 not really wanting to let people know that I have 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:41.470 vision impairment. And it's not wouldn't be clear to anyone 0:22:41.470 --> 0:22:44.560 that was observing me, probably in a public situation to 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:48.159 using a cane and maybe a mobile phone that's speaking 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:51.060 instructions to me or something, which makes it more obvious. 0:22:51.070 --> 0:22:54.130 And I have this conversation with clients a lot as well, 0:22:54.130 --> 0:22:57.220 where they they'll often opt to take up an ID 0:22:57.369 --> 0:22:59.740 cane to make it easier for them to be out 0:22:59.740 --> 0:23:02.410 in public, for instance, to go into a shopping mall 0:23:02.500 --> 0:23:05.380 or to get public transport. And at that point, for them, 0:23:05.380 --> 0:23:08.200 it may not be that they necessarily need a full 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:11.830 mobility cane, but the cane just helps them to feel 0:23:11.830 --> 0:23:14.950 more safe in the community, with people knowing that their 0:23:14.950 --> 0:23:15.790 vision impaired. 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:19.720 Is there any sense of a hesitancy about accepting an 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:22.840 ID cane? Because it is, I guess, kind of a 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:25.480 physical demonstration of accepting your low vision? 0:23:25.510 --> 0:23:29.560 I think the has to decide hesitancy is around people's 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:32.410 reaction to the cane once you bring it out, more 0:23:32.410 --> 0:23:35.410 so than people accepting whether or not they need one 0:23:35.410 --> 0:23:39.130 because the cane isn't doesn't really give you very much information. 0:23:39.130 --> 0:23:41.530 So it's really just, as the name implies, to let 0:23:41.530 --> 0:23:43.930 other people know that you have a vision impairment. But 0:23:43.930 --> 0:23:47.290 I think people can really react to it quite strongly. 0:23:47.290 --> 0:23:49.810 So it can be a bit confronting when you first 0:23:49.810 --> 0:23:51.620 bring it out and all of a sudden, you know, 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:53.080 people are reacting. 0:23:53.109 --> 0:23:56.439 That's the thing with the cane. It's intermittent use where 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:59.859 a directional cane or mobility cane is used all the 0:23:59.859 --> 0:24:02.560 time and I'd cane and I'll use my idea can 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:04.810 win the circumstance permit. So if I go to a 0:24:04.810 --> 0:24:07.120 game of football and there's a big crowd around, I 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:08.859 don't feel comfortable in the big crowd. I'm not going 0:24:08.859 --> 0:24:10.270 to find the stairs or I'm not going to see 0:24:10.270 --> 0:24:12.939 the barriers in the bollards in your way because there's 0:24:12.940 --> 0:24:14.830 a big crowd there. So I get the cane out. 0:24:14.830 --> 0:24:17.080 So people are aware that I'm the one with the 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:19.300 vision impairment and they should take it out of my 0:24:19.300 --> 0:24:22.080 way because if I bump into them, it's not my fault. 0:24:22.090 --> 0:24:25.000 It's probably, therefore, I think that situation will use and 0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:26.439 then people will look at you and go, Well, you 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:28.180 had a cane out 10 minutes ago. Now you don't 0:24:28.180 --> 0:24:29.740 have one hour or you're sitting at the football and 0:24:29.740 --> 0:24:31.900 you're watching the football through a pair of binoculars like 0:24:31.900 --> 0:24:35.130 everybody else. You clearly can see, so are you a fraud? 0:24:35.140 --> 0:24:37.480 And I think that that's the issue that that some 0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:39.730 users have. With that I'd cane because it's in and 0:24:39.730 --> 0:24:41.169 out of your bag all the time. 0:24:41.290 --> 0:24:44.139 I often wonder about that if if, say, for instance, 0:24:44.140 --> 0:24:46.900 someone is commuting with me to work and they. See, 0:24:46.910 --> 0:24:49.060 someday say you have my cane and some days I 0:24:49.060 --> 0:24:51.879 don't know whether they're thinking to themselves what is going 0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:52.479 on here. 0:24:52.910 --> 0:24:56.740 Like, she's had a heavy night last January today. 0:24:57.310 --> 0:24:59.419 I thought she was blind and now she's not blind. 0:25:00.100 --> 0:25:04.180 It's a miracle. Are there any other tips and tricks 0:25:04.180 --> 0:25:08.560 you've come up with, either helping people understand your situation 0:25:08.560 --> 0:25:09.940 or slipping past it? 0:25:10.030 --> 0:25:13.030 These days, I have an abbreviated version, which would be 0:25:13.030 --> 0:25:15.610 just to say to someone, I have no vision, I 0:25:15.609 --> 0:25:18.070 have some science. But maybe if you could just tell 0:25:18.070 --> 0:25:20.199 me what's on the border, that's really all I need. 0:25:20.260 --> 0:25:22.090 I find if I say something like that, it's sort 0:25:22.090 --> 0:25:24.640 of without going into much more detail than that. It 0:25:24.640 --> 0:25:25.840 narrows it down. 0:25:25.960 --> 0:25:28.629 The Boston airport, I notified that I was visually impaired 0:25:28.630 --> 0:25:30.520 and I needed assistance from gate to gate because I've 0:25:30.520 --> 0:25:33.040 never been to Boston before, and the assistance it turned 0:25:33.040 --> 0:25:35.770 up was a wheelchair and the gentleman said, I'm here 0:25:35.770 --> 0:25:37.690 to assist you. And I looked at him. I said, Mate, 0:25:37.690 --> 0:25:39.429 it's the eyes that don't work. The legs are fine. 0:25:39.440 --> 0:25:42.130 He's just walking up to the gate and I walk 0:25:42.130 --> 0:25:44.679 with him with the wheelchair. So yeah, sometimes when you 0:25:44.680 --> 0:25:46.810 ask for that assistance, people aren't fully aware of what 0:25:46.810 --> 0:25:49.389 assistance you need. And I think Samantha's strategy, they're being 0:25:49.390 --> 0:25:52.450 specific about what help you need. I need the time 0:25:52.450 --> 0:25:54.480 table read or I need directions. If you give me 0:25:54.700 --> 0:25:57.760 a left right 50 meters, give me some directions I'm 0:25:57.760 --> 0:26:00.460 okay to to locate that. And if you struggle like 0:26:00.460 --> 0:26:03.639 me to even acknowledge that you have any eyesight issues, 0:26:03.640 --> 0:26:06.070 if you can avoid doing that, I mean, quite often 0:26:06.070 --> 0:26:07.570 you don't need to. So I mean, if you go 0:26:07.570 --> 0:26:09.910 to the restaurant classically, you know, you can talk about 0:26:09.910 --> 0:26:12.100 the specials, you know, you can you suggest a wine 0:26:12.100 --> 0:26:13.480 that goes well with that you never even need to 0:26:13.480 --> 0:26:15.980 see a wine list. You know, you go to museum. 0:26:16.000 --> 0:26:18.280 I happened to be visiting my old university. There's a 0:26:18.280 --> 0:26:20.440 new museum that's just appeared. And, you know, I asked 0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:22.810 them to explain to me what the things are. So, 0:26:22.810 --> 0:26:25.119 you know, I didn't need to be able to demonstrate 0:26:25.119 --> 0:26:27.940 that I couldn't read the signs or anything of that nature. So, 0:26:27.950 --> 0:26:30.280 so quite often, you know, if whether you choose to 0:26:30.280 --> 0:26:32.830 disclose that you've got a visual impairment or not. Lots 0:26:32.830 --> 0:26:35.560 of people are very willing to communicate verbally with you. 0:26:35.560 --> 0:26:38.470 If you ask them, actually, then your motivation for doing 0:26:38.470 --> 0:26:40.139 that doesn't ever need to be disclosed. If you don't 0:26:40.150 --> 0:26:41.980 want it to be getting up close to the paintings 0:26:41.980 --> 0:26:45.679 at museums, sometimes Andrew alert security that you might interview. 0:26:45.820 --> 0:26:47.719 You might be a thief or you are visually impaired. 0:26:47.730 --> 0:26:48.689 Did that indicate 0:26:48.700 --> 0:26:52.030 if you're going to try and see the plaque suddenly found? 0:26:52.090 --> 0:26:54.580 So that that's that's definitely true. But I do remember 0:26:54.580 --> 0:26:57.730 once going to an impressionist museum in an exhibition in London, 0:26:57.730 --> 0:26:59.169 it was one of those ones where there were a 0:26:59.170 --> 0:27:01.090 million people going every day and you had to get 0:27:01.090 --> 0:27:02.740 tickets and you had a two and a half minute 0:27:02.740 --> 0:27:06.610 window to see a thousand paintings and. And everyone said, 0:27:06.609 --> 0:27:08.230 you know, you can only really appreciate it if you're 0:27:08.230 --> 0:27:10.030 standing really far back. And I thought, Well, I don't 0:27:10.030 --> 0:27:10.659 have that problem. 0:27:11.740 --> 0:27:12.490 Be viewing. 0:27:14.050 --> 0:27:16.659 I got close to Starry Night in the museum in 0:27:16.660 --> 0:27:19.390 New York once and for security guards came rushing over 0:27:19.390 --> 0:27:22.540 and I waved my kind of my way. Oh, it's OK. Okay, cool. 0:27:23.050 --> 0:27:23.770 Don't breathe on it. 0:27:23.780 --> 0:27:27.670 They say I've been known to pot crowds with my cane. 0:27:28.000 --> 0:27:30.820 They they just scatter. They're terrified of it. I don't 0:27:30.820 --> 0:27:32.050 know what they think is going to happen, 0:27:32.050 --> 0:27:35.169 but apparently they're it's a very terrifying thing 0:27:35.440 --> 0:27:36.460 that can be 0:27:37.660 --> 0:27:38.409 their handy weapon. 0:27:38.410 --> 0:27:41.560 Sometimes Typekit things really are. I don't know how many 0:27:41.560 --> 0:27:44.200 bus drivers I've whacked around the ankles with my cane, 0:27:44.200 --> 0:27:46.510 but there are few. And how many of those times 0:27:46.510 --> 0:27:49.240 have been accidental test? No, many, not many, I have 0:27:49.240 --> 0:27:53.889 to tell you. So our final question will segway us 0:27:53.890 --> 0:27:57.430 quite nicely into our next episode, which is on community 0:27:57.430 --> 0:28:00.370 and identity? I'll throw this open to anyone who wants 0:28:00.369 --> 0:28:02.980 to jump in first. And the question is, how connected 0:28:02.980 --> 0:28:05.350 do you feel as someone who has low vision with 0:28:05.350 --> 0:28:07.060 the community who's totally blind? 0:28:07.180 --> 0:28:11.320 I feel very connected. I've been my vision, my whole life, 0:28:11.440 --> 0:28:14.050 and I've played blind sports and vision impaired sports. A 0:28:14.050 --> 0:28:16.510 number of my friends today are from that and their 0:28:16.510 --> 0:28:19.300 low vision, as well as totally blind and obviously working 0:28:19.300 --> 0:28:21.730 for a blindness agency such as Vision Australia, who does 0:28:21.730 --> 0:28:24.699 a fantastic job in the community. There is significant connectedness 0:28:24.700 --> 0:28:27.220 with people here. Started 50 per cent of our staff, 0:28:27.220 --> 0:28:30.580 a low vision or totally blind. So I feel connected 0:28:30.580 --> 0:28:32.260 with the community about I think I need to get 0:28:32.260 --> 0:28:33.970 McCain out more and get off McDonald's. 0:28:36.550 --> 0:28:37.869 Samantha, how about you? 0:28:37.900 --> 0:28:40.600 I think I would answer that by saying I feel 0:28:40.600 --> 0:28:43.060 as connected as I want to be. I don't think 0:28:43.060 --> 0:28:46.900 I completely identify, you know, my whole personality as being 0:28:46.900 --> 0:28:50.290 a vision impaired person. I'm many things, so I think 0:28:50.290 --> 0:28:52.870 I feel as connected as I like to be, which 0:28:52.870 --> 0:28:56.340 is fairly connected. But it's not my entire identity. 0:28:56.350 --> 0:28:57.520 And Andrew, I'm 0:28:57.520 --> 0:28:59.350 going to have to answer this in the hope that 0:28:59.350 --> 0:29:01.810 nobody actually from Vision Australia listens to this, and I 0:29:01.810 --> 0:29:05.410 think that type is probably unrealistic. Given my role as chair. 0:29:05.710 --> 0:29:09.250 I'm connected with the organization, the blindness community, because I 0:29:09.250 --> 0:29:11.620 was asked to take a governance role here. So that 0:29:11.620 --> 0:29:13.990 does give me a connection with the blindness community. But 0:29:14.290 --> 0:29:17.230 as much as as a teenager, I was a client 0:29:17.230 --> 0:29:19.540 of the low vision clinic in Kooyong. So I have, 0:29:19.540 --> 0:29:22.690 in fact, as a teenager, been a client. But for me, yes, 0:29:22.690 --> 0:29:25.330 my eyesight has been what it is stable since birth, 0:29:25.330 --> 0:29:29.350 so I haven't needed, I suppose, to be part of 0:29:29.350 --> 0:29:33.430 the blindness community at all. And I'm very aware in reality, 0:29:33.430 --> 0:29:36.100 and I have this discussion with Vision Australia's deputy chair, 0:29:36.100 --> 0:29:39.400 Bill Jolley, who's a mathematician, let's say, you know, statistically, Bill, 0:29:39.400 --> 0:29:41.800 I'm told I've got 15 per cent eyesight, but 100 0:29:41.800 --> 0:29:43.930 per cent I'm relying on vision. I live in a 0:29:43.930 --> 0:29:46.860 visual world. You know, I look at things now I'm. Questionably, 0:29:46.860 --> 0:29:49.110 I use my hearing. I rely on my hearing more 0:29:49.110 --> 0:29:51.450 than I would if my eyesight were perfect. No doubt 0:29:51.450 --> 0:29:54.360 about that, but for the most part, I feel the 0:29:54.360 --> 0:29:56.850 way I interact with the world around me is much 0:29:56.850 --> 0:30:00.000 closer to the people with 100 percent eyesight than the 0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:02.640 people with zero. I use things to fill in the 0:30:02.640 --> 0:30:05.580 bit that I don't have. But so, so consequently. I mean, 0:30:05.580 --> 0:30:08.280 I'm very engaged. I've got, of course, a huge personal 0:30:08.280 --> 0:30:10.650 mission to help blind people, and I'm in awe of 0:30:10.650 --> 0:30:14.010 how people who can't see anything at all interact with 0:30:14.010 --> 0:30:17.700 the world. But honestly, I don't think that my low 0:30:17.700 --> 0:30:22.260 vision gives me any material insight into the extraordinary way 0:30:22.260 --> 0:30:25.160 people live if they can't see it all. I really don't. 0:30:25.170 --> 0:30:27.630 I'd love to say something different, but I think that's 0:30:27.630 --> 0:30:28.860 my personal truth. 0:30:29.010 --> 0:30:32.640 When we've talked about kind of, I guess, people understanding 0:30:32.640 --> 0:30:35.010 low vision, it's kind of been most of the answers 0:30:35.010 --> 0:30:37.650 have been around from a sighted perspective. Do you think 0:30:37.650 --> 0:30:40.470 people who are completely blind understand what it's like to 0:30:40.470 --> 0:30:41.170 be low vision? 0:30:41.220 --> 0:30:43.410 I don't see how they can. I think I've got 0:30:43.410 --> 0:30:45.510 a number of totally blind friends who have been blind 0:30:45.510 --> 0:30:49.230 since birth and explaining colour to them. I can see color, 0:30:49.230 --> 0:30:51.000 I can see blue, I can see pink. I'm not 0:30:51.000 --> 0:30:54.630 very good at matching clothes and my wife helps in 0:30:54.630 --> 0:30:55.979 that regard. I don't think that's got anything to do 0:30:55.980 --> 0:30:57.690 with sight. I think that's a lot to do with taste. 0:30:58.740 --> 0:31:01.170 I'd rather go out and look like Ronald McDonald someday. 0:31:01.260 --> 0:31:05.010 But yeah, how do you describe color to someone who 0:31:05.010 --> 0:31:07.290 has no sight? As Andrew said, We live in a 0:31:07.290 --> 0:31:11.490 sighted world, so I think that is difficult to do. So, yeah, 0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:13.320 I think it's a very hard thing to do and 0:31:13.320 --> 0:31:15.420 we can't imagine because that's what people say. Just close 0:31:15.420 --> 0:31:17.370 your eyes and you can imagine what it's like to 0:31:17.370 --> 0:31:20.430 be born where you can't because you can visualize a tree, 0:31:20.430 --> 0:31:23.310 a bird, a car, a color, a shape with someone 0:31:23.310 --> 0:31:26.850 who's been blind since birth cannot visualize a color or 0:31:26.850 --> 0:31:29.220 a bird or a shape in that other than the 0:31:29.220 --> 0:31:31.860 tactile experience that they've had that they've learned through their hands, 0:31:31.860 --> 0:31:34.860 but they haven't had the advantage of visually seeing that 0:31:34.860 --> 0:31:36.300 in a three dimensional space. 0:31:36.570 --> 0:31:37.710 Samantha, what about you? 0:31:37.740 --> 0:31:40.970 I'm going to say something maybe slightly different here. Well, 0:31:40.980 --> 0:31:44.730 I think what I'm really interested in around this topic 0:31:44.730 --> 0:31:47.790 is not so much. Always the same question is what 0:31:47.790 --> 0:31:50.820 can't people see and what can't they do? But how 0:31:50.820 --> 0:31:54.390 do people who are blind or vision impaired experience the 0:31:54.390 --> 0:31:57.480 world differently, like sometimes some of the things they experience 0:31:57.480 --> 0:32:00.330 are quite wonderful and quite diverse, and I find that 0:32:00.330 --> 0:32:01.170 really interesting. 0:32:01.260 --> 0:32:06.030 Something interesting that Samantha just said around experiencing the world different. 0:32:06.030 --> 0:32:08.850 I'm a photographer and people look at me sometimes sideways 0:32:08.850 --> 0:32:11.100 when I go. You're a photographer. Hang on. You can't 0:32:11.100 --> 0:32:13.410 see what's going on. And I've got nice camera gear 0:32:13.410 --> 0:32:15.450 and I take photos, but I take those photos because 0:32:15.450 --> 0:32:18.700 I can't experience the world as my sighted counterparts can. 0:32:18.720 --> 0:32:20.300 My wife can stand there and look at, you know, 0:32:20.340 --> 0:32:22.740 the Empire State Building, and she can see the detail 0:32:22.770 --> 0:32:24.990 of the architecture. And I love architecture. I'm very interested 0:32:24.990 --> 0:32:26.880 in architecture. She can see all that and I can't 0:32:26.880 --> 0:32:29.130 see it. It's just a blurry object, you know, towering 0:32:29.130 --> 0:32:31.200 in front of me. So I take photos of that 0:32:31.210 --> 0:32:33.990 and then later on, review those photos on a large 0:32:33.990 --> 0:32:36.530 screen computer and zoom them up. And, you know, have 0:32:36.540 --> 0:32:38.430 a look at them and understand the detail. Then I 0:32:38.430 --> 0:32:40.720 can have a conversation with my wife on an equal footing. 0:32:40.740 --> 0:32:43.230 Did you see this carved stone? Did you see that 0:32:43.230 --> 0:32:45.690 there was a plaque here on the fourth floor with 0:32:46.050 --> 0:32:47.760 a testament to this person? Or did you see the 0:32:47.760 --> 0:32:49.800 window dressing in this window? She can see all that 0:32:49.800 --> 0:32:51.750 in the experience that she had during the day. I 0:32:51.750 --> 0:32:54.150 don't see that too. Later on in the afternoon when 0:32:54.150 --> 0:32:56.750 I'm reviewing the photos or the next day and you know, 0:32:56.790 --> 0:32:59.070 I went to all the rue recently and everybody standing 0:32:59.070 --> 0:33:00.990 and wow, look at them is wrong. It's fantastic. And 0:33:00.990 --> 0:33:03.060 I'm going where where they is right in front of you. 0:33:03.060 --> 0:33:05.190 You can see this, this massive rock. And it's only 0:33:05.190 --> 0:33:07.500 when I took photos that I started to understand the 0:33:07.500 --> 0:33:10.650 textures and the colors and how wonderful all the room 0:33:10.650 --> 0:33:13.430 is as a as a monolith to have a look at. 0:33:13.440 --> 0:33:16.770 So I think what tested there, what Samantha said is 0:33:16.770 --> 0:33:19.450 just right on the money, right on the money. I'm 0:33:19.500 --> 0:33:21.690 one of the things that I think we need to 0:33:21.690 --> 0:33:24.660 do if we're going to be in a with limited 0:33:24.660 --> 0:33:28.530 vision in the world. We're making kind of educated guesses 0:33:28.530 --> 0:33:31.230 about what something is or who somebody is. You know, 0:33:31.290 --> 0:33:34.380 that person kind of looks like it may well be 0:33:34.380 --> 0:33:37.830 John or Jane, that restaurant that place, what have you. 0:33:37.860 --> 0:33:40.739 That car looks like it's probably a taxi, so I'm 0:33:40.740 --> 0:33:42.590 going to put my arm out whatever it might be. 0:33:42.600 --> 0:33:45.320 And you know what? Quite often those educated guesses are wrong, 0:33:45.330 --> 0:33:50.550 and I'm really sorry, Jane, you. I'm really sorry. You 0:33:50.550 --> 0:33:52.230 look like somebody. I know we do that. I mean, 0:33:52.530 --> 0:33:55.800 that's inevitable. You either sit tight until you've got certainty, 0:33:55.800 --> 0:33:58.710 but you withdraw yourself from the world or you, you 0:33:58.710 --> 0:34:01.830 kind of muddle through. But inevitably you make lots of 0:34:01.830 --> 0:34:04.440 mistakes on the way. And when you've got low vision 0:34:04.440 --> 0:34:06.660 and it's not obvious, I mean, if you blind people or, 0:34:06.870 --> 0:34:08.969 you know, cut you some slack, I suspect. But if 0:34:08.969 --> 0:34:11.640 you don't look like you've got a particular impairment, then 0:34:11.640 --> 0:34:14.630 those mistakes people assume you're an idiot. It takes some time. 0:34:14.640 --> 0:34:16.650 I mean, you need to have a fairly, I think, 0:34:16.650 --> 0:34:19.650 thick skin because you will make lots of those mistakes 0:34:19.650 --> 0:34:22.649 and you look like a bit foolish sometimes. But but 0:34:22.650 --> 0:34:25.620 I think people should acknowledge that because it's either that or, 0:34:25.620 --> 0:34:28.800 as I say, just take yourself onto the sidelines for 0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:29.489 lots of things. 0:34:29.580 --> 0:34:32.400 I think that's a fantastic note to end on. Guys, 0:34:32.400 --> 0:34:34.980 thank you so much to our wonderful panel. 0:34:35.010 --> 0:34:36.209 Thank you. Thanks very much. 0:34:36.239 --> 0:34:39.870 Thank you. Thanks, everyone. This has been a wonderful episode 0:34:39.870 --> 0:34:43.670 about being quote, not blind enough. So many great insights. 0:34:43.680 --> 0:34:46.800 And remember, this podcast can be downloaded. By the Vision 0:34:46.800 --> 0:34:50.790 Australia website, just go to Vision Australia dot org and 0:34:50.790 --> 0:34:53.640 type and nothing's off limits into the search engine you 0:34:53.640 --> 0:34:56.610 redirected to our web page and do subscribe because you 0:34:56.610 --> 0:34:58.500 don't want to miss any episodes, and you can view 0:34:58.500 --> 0:35:01.500 this episode and early ones or if you prefer. Just 0:35:01.500 --> 0:35:04.320 tune in to Vision Australia radio. Next time, we'll be 0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:07.410 bringing another panel of guests together to delve further into 0:35:07.410 --> 0:35:10.859 the question of identity and community and explore the tricky 0:35:10.860 --> 0:35:14.100 topic of disclosure. But meantime, thank you again to our 0:35:14.100 --> 0:35:16.800 wonderful guests, and thank you for joining us for the 0:35:16.800 --> 0:35:18.600 show where nothing's off limits. 0:35:23.790 --> 0:35:27.719 That was nothing's off limits. Made with the support of 0:35:27.730 --> 0:35:32.819 Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages and capacity building grant. 0:35:33.000 --> 0:35:37.169 Learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting V.J. Radio, 0:35:37.170 --> 0:35:39.930 dot org and access all there is to know about 0:35:39.930 --> 0:35:44.130 our range of client services via our website. Vision Australia 0:35:44.370 --> 0:35:48.420 dot org. We thank everyone who participated in this episode, 0:35:48.540 --> 0:35:52.260 but especially you for listening today. We rely on your support, 0:35:52.440 --> 0:35:55.469 so please share this podcast with just one person today 0:35:55.590 --> 0:35:58.950 and brighten our day or write us on your preferred 0:35:58.950 --> 0:36:01.500 podcast platform. Bye for now.