WEBVTT - Nothings off Limits - Body Image and Appearance(Ep6) 0:00:03.900 --> 0:00:07.980 Nothing's off limits slinks off limits, bringing together experts and 0:00:07.980 --> 0:00:11.190 people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love 0:00:11.190 --> 0:00:14.610 to avoid, but absolutely need to talk about me with 0:00:14.610 --> 0:00:18.689 the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages 0:00:18.690 --> 0:00:21.420 and capacity building grant building grants. 0:00:23.550 --> 0:00:27.300 Hello and welcome to the series where nothing's off limits. 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:30.480 My name is Polly and together with my co-host Tess 0:00:30.540 --> 0:00:33.660 over ten episodes, we're exploring some of those topics which 0:00:33.659 --> 0:00:36.930 we might usually consider off limits and discussing them openly 0:00:36.930 --> 0:00:39.760 and honestly and through the specific lens of blindness and 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:41.970 vision with the help of expert guests. 0:00:42.090 --> 0:00:42.900 And there'll be more 0:00:42.900 --> 0:00:45.120 information at the end of the show about how you 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:47.970 can catch this episode and other episodes of Nothing's Off 0:00:47.970 --> 0:00:49.970 Limits on the Vision Australia website. 0:00:49.979 --> 0:00:53.940 In this episode, we're talking about body image and appearance. 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:56.610 What do we mean when we talk about body image? 0:00:56.610 --> 0:00:58.720 And how do you connect with that concept if you 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:01.770 want primarily visual? What perceptions do you have of your 0:01:01.770 --> 0:01:04.320 own and others? Appearance, if you are blind, will have 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:06.809 no vision. What messages are we sending through the way 0:01:06.810 --> 0:01:09.240 we present ourselves? And how do you find out what 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:12.300 society's rules of what someone should look like are an 0:01:12.300 --> 0:01:14.820 exercise your right to follow or break those rules on 0:01:14.819 --> 0:01:18.100 your own terms? This is an emotive topic for those 0:01:18.180 --> 0:01:20.850 tests and me, and if you were affected by any 0:01:20.850 --> 0:01:23.970 of the issues in the show, please contact Lifeline on 0:01:23.970 --> 0:01:28.230 one three one one one four or the Butterfly Foundation, 0:01:28.290 --> 0:01:32.220 the national charity for all Australians impacted by eating disorders 0:01:32.220 --> 0:01:34.890 and body image issues, and for the families, friends and 0:01:34.890 --> 0:01:38.220 community to support them. Their national helpline number is one 0:01:38.220 --> 0:01:41.970 800 33 four six seven three. The way we dress 0:01:41.970 --> 0:01:44.670 and style our hair or makeup is one component of 0:01:44.670 --> 0:01:47.880 creating and expressing body image. Here at Vision Australia, we've 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:49.920 done a number of projects to make the world of 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:53.970 fashion more accessible, including partnering with Melbourne Fashion Festival to 0:01:53.970 --> 0:01:57.180 audio describe some ways. The interest in these has really 0:01:57.180 --> 0:01:59.610 debunked the perception that if you are blind or have 0:01:59.610 --> 0:02:01.680 low vision fashion and the way you look is not 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:05.040 a priority. To test this further, we asked you how 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:07.680 much does appearance and body image matter to you? 0:02:08.430 --> 0:02:17.610 Nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly Polly. How much 0:02:17.610 --> 0:02:20.280 does appearance and body image matter to you? 0:02:20.610 --> 0:02:23.639 It doesn't personally matter much to me. It matters other people. 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:25.290 And I think sometimes that's quite sad. 0:02:26.820 --> 0:02:29.970 When I'm walking around the house, I won't necessarily see 0:02:29.970 --> 0:02:32.190 in the whole way. Mirror is a bingo of jam 0:02:32.190 --> 0:02:35.700 on my top that I've got child related grot running 0:02:35.700 --> 0:02:38.490 down the front of my T-shirt. It's very embarrassing when 0:02:38.490 --> 0:02:40.650 somebody points it out, and I guess I need to 0:02:40.650 --> 0:02:44.670 learn to be more open and receptive when people pointing 0:02:44.669 --> 0:02:46.530 this stuff out to me. Other than that, I don't 0:02:46.530 --> 0:02:48.780 think I smell too bad. Although a shower is never 0:02:48.780 --> 0:02:51.540 a relaxing experience for me, I'm always worried that I'm 0:02:51.540 --> 0:02:57.250 going to fall on the backside. Not too much. What's 0:02:57.250 --> 0:02:59.260 inside a person is what matter. 0:02:59.830 --> 0:03:02.669 Oh, probably a six or seven out of 10? I am. 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:05.230 I like to look nice, but I'm not going to 0:03:05.230 --> 0:03:06.500 go crazy over. 0:03:07.690 --> 0:03:12.280 It matters to me a lot because I like to 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:14.900 present well in all different situations. 0:03:14.950 --> 0:03:17.050 Does being blind can make you more conscious of how 0:03:17.050 --> 0:03:17.829 you present yourself? 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:21.040 Yes, definitely. And it's something that you learn as you 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.250 get older. It's not something that comes to people naturally. 0:03:24.430 --> 0:03:26.650 It matters actually quite a lot to me, and I 0:03:26.650 --> 0:03:29.290 think it was when you're blind you because you don't 0:03:29.290 --> 0:03:31.420 see what other people look like. Sometimes it can be 0:03:31.419 --> 0:03:34.150 easy to have quite a distorted view of yourself because 0:03:34.150 --> 0:03:36.490 you can't see what's around you. You actually don't know 0:03:36.490 --> 0:03:38.590 where you often fit in the scheme of things. You know, 0:03:38.590 --> 0:03:41.440 you might think you're quite overweight, but you may not 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:41.770 be 0:03:42.490 --> 0:03:42.910 well the other 0:03:42.910 --> 0:03:45.200 way around. You know, you might think that, you know, 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:47.500 a certain something looks good on you. And I guess 0:03:47.500 --> 0:03:50.680 if you feel good, that's all that matters. But for me, 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:51.430 it is quite important. 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:52.360 Body image and 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:56.320 appearance are really important to me, both my own and 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:59.800 others that I'm with in the conventional sense. I'm a 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:03.700 man in my mid-40s, so I've put on a few pounds. 0:04:03.730 --> 0:04:06.340 But actually in this country full of sunny, tanned people, 0:04:06.370 --> 0:04:09.730 I am thin, white and hairy, which is why they 0:04:09.730 --> 0:04:12.280 see me wear Arashi indoors at the swimming pool. In 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:14.490 terms of that, in the context of sight. I was 0:04:14.490 --> 0:04:17.480 sick classes and I'm still a little self-conscious about it. 0:04:17.500 --> 0:04:19.270 But when you don't wear a set glass, you go, 0:04:19.270 --> 0:04:22.000 I'm going to a day just being me, not me 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:23.860 wearing glasses. May you put on a pair of contact 0:04:23.860 --> 0:04:26.260 lenses whenever I stop to look at my phone, read 0:04:26.260 --> 0:04:28.810 a menu or squint at a bus stop. There's always 0:04:28.810 --> 0:04:31.719 some smart alec who comes up to you and says, Oh, 0:04:31.750 --> 0:04:34.659 you need glasses, mate. Like, I haven't thought of that before. 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.420 I would say it matters quite a lot. I was 0:04:37.420 --> 0:04:40.029 born vision impaired. I have low vision when I was 0:04:40.029 --> 0:04:42.550 first learning to use a mobility cane and I found 0:04:42.550 --> 0:04:46.300 it very confronting the way people were reacting to me 0:04:47.020 --> 0:04:50.950 and nervousness, and I was getting a train with my cane. 0:04:50.980 --> 0:04:54.010 It's amazing. Man got onto the train. He was young, 0:04:54.130 --> 0:04:57.339 really beautifully dressed in like a three piece suit and 0:04:57.339 --> 0:05:01.690 a briefcase looked sleek and professional, and he was using 0:05:01.690 --> 0:05:04.900 a cane. I noticed that everyone was reacting very differently 0:05:04.900 --> 0:05:07.570 to him. He was using his cane very confidently, and 0:05:07.570 --> 0:05:10.270 he looked very much like he was successful in the world. 0:05:10.270 --> 0:05:12.820 And I was just really impressed by it made me 0:05:12.820 --> 0:05:16.779 think how much? It's great to be well dressed when 0:05:16.779 --> 0:05:18.310 your vision impaired for me anyway. 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.969 Tess, you've graciously agreed to take off your hosting hat 0:05:21.970 --> 0:05:24.730 for a moment to share a story about your experience 0:05:24.730 --> 0:05:27.360 navigating body image. As a young woman who is blind 0:05:27.370 --> 0:05:29.919 when you were in your late teens, early 20s, you 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:33.010 have quite a negative relationship with how you perceived your body. 0:05:33.070 --> 0:05:36.940 Even when I was a younger teenager, 14 15, I 0:05:36.940 --> 0:05:39.580 didn't really like the way my body looked. I didn't 0:05:39.580 --> 0:05:42.490 think I was tall enough, slim enough. But it really 0:05:42.490 --> 0:05:46.210 took a toll when I was about 19. The year before, 0:05:46.210 --> 0:05:49.990 I'd taken some tablets to help me with hormone related 0:05:49.990 --> 0:05:54.219 difficulties and my body had undergone some changes. The time 0:05:54.220 --> 0:05:56.500 came that there was an event that I was going to, 0:05:56.500 --> 0:05:59.020 and I wore addressed. Various bits of my body was 0:05:59.020 --> 0:06:01.620 sort of not quite fitting into it, and I really did. 0:06:01.630 --> 0:06:04.870 I felt genuine repulsion and I just thought it is 0:06:04.870 --> 0:06:06.849 just because I don't look right. I'm too fat, I'm 0:06:06.850 --> 0:06:09.549 too I'm too swollen. I was also experiencing a lot 0:06:09.550 --> 0:06:12.580 of anxiety that that was I can't say it was unrelated, 0:06:12.580 --> 0:06:15.460 but it was at. The anxiety was about all sorts 0:06:15.460 --> 0:06:17.799 of aspects of my life, and I felt like the 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:19.870 only thing I could really have control over was how 0:06:19.870 --> 0:06:22.659 much I ate or didn't eat. And so combining this 0:06:22.660 --> 0:06:27.119 repulsion with the way I looked and my need for control, 0:06:27.130 --> 0:06:30.970 I really started to engage in some fairly self-destructive behaviours, 0:06:30.970 --> 0:06:34.029 like starving myself periods, trying to make myself sick, trying 0:06:34.029 --> 0:06:36.220 to bloat myself in order to make myself sick. So 0:06:36.220 --> 0:06:38.619 it was something not right about my body, and the 0:06:38.620 --> 0:06:42.970 world was full of thin, beautiful women and I was 0:06:42.970 --> 0:06:45.159 not one of them. And therefore I wasn't fit to 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:48.190 wear nice clothes. I wasn't fit to do anything except 0:06:48.190 --> 0:06:51.040 just try and make myself a little bit less horrifying. 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.310 And that behaviour continued for a couple of years and tests. 0:06:54.940 --> 0:06:57.969 Some people might be curious as to how you have 0:06:57.970 --> 0:07:01.299 these pressures, perceived pressures around how you look and when 0:07:01.300 --> 0:07:03.610 you are yourself blind. What was driving them? 0:07:03.610 --> 0:07:05.860 Do you think I was feeling like I wasn't fitting 0:07:05.860 --> 0:07:09.100 into my clothes? There was a particular time where I 0:07:09.100 --> 0:07:12.150 wore a dress and my breasts had to be sort of, 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:14.080 I guess we had to use a bit of tape 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:17.120 because my my breasts were too were too big. And 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.420 then we're sort of coming out. I've always been interested 0:07:19.420 --> 0:07:21.730 in the visual world around me and wanting to know 0:07:21.730 --> 0:07:24.220 what my family and friends look like. And I suppose 0:07:24.670 --> 0:07:27.100 my perceptions of a lot of them were that they 0:07:27.100 --> 0:07:30.040 were tall and thin, that I was short and fat. 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.070 It's hard because I couldn't look into a mirror. I 0:07:33.070 --> 0:07:35.530 couldn't really see what I looked like. All I could 0:07:35.650 --> 0:07:39.550 see was if I occasionally was brave enough to stand 0:07:39.550 --> 0:07:42.070 on the scales, and even though I was average weight, 0:07:42.070 --> 0:07:44.220 it didn't seem enough. And you know, so I'd I'd 0:07:44.260 --> 0:07:46.780 be pinching my waist to try and find out how 0:07:46.780 --> 0:07:49.000 I looked there or not. In my mind, I was 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:53.470 squeezing handfuls of fat that manifested in, you know, starving myself, 0:07:53.470 --> 0:07:56.890 trying to make myself sick and. Also exercising a bit 0:07:56.890 --> 0:07:57.430 too much, 0:07:57.430 --> 0:07:57.810 Tess, 0:07:57.830 --> 0:07:59.440 I wish I could travel back in time and give 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:00.640 your younger self just the 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:01.330 biggest hug. 0:08:01.540 --> 0:08:02.800 How did you get through this? 0:08:04.150 --> 0:08:07.570 I think through it I had a lot of friends 0:08:07.570 --> 0:08:09.670 and family. I took me a couple of years to 0:08:09.670 --> 0:08:11.890 tell my family, but when they knew they were fantastic, 0:08:11.890 --> 0:08:14.110 I mean, my sister saw that I wasn't eating very 0:08:14.110 --> 0:08:16.450 much and that I would take any excuse not to eat. 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:18.510 My family were living a few hours away, so they 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:20.890 they want to know, and a few friends of mine knew, 0:08:20.890 --> 0:08:24.520 and they encouraged me to seek professional help. So I 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:26.470 did that. I think I went to a support group 0:08:26.470 --> 0:08:28.330 with a friend. I think it was about six months 0:08:28.330 --> 0:08:31.200 after I started having these problems. For a couple of years, 0:08:31.210 --> 0:08:34.690 I had, you know, counselling on and off. Sometimes I 0:08:34.690 --> 0:08:36.910 would feel OK about my body and then I'd spiral. 0:08:36.970 --> 0:08:39.640 But then I got to about 23 24, and I 0:08:39.670 --> 0:08:43.840 just started to experience a more positive feel about my body. 0:08:43.870 --> 0:08:47.110 I stopped feeling quite so repulsed by it, and I 0:08:47.110 --> 0:08:49.660 started feeling like I was actually. This was the way 0:08:49.660 --> 0:08:51.610 I was meant to look. And I think it was 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.429 as much the counselling and support and affirmation of family 0:08:54.429 --> 0:08:56.830 and friends that really helped me get there. By the 0:08:56.830 --> 0:09:00.820 time I was 23 24, I finally got to a stage. 0:09:00.850 --> 0:09:03.760 After all that support where I could be proud of 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:05.710 my body, I mean, you know, I'm not, I'm not tall, 0:09:05.710 --> 0:09:08.650 but I'm not short. I'm not slim, but I'm not fat. I'm, 0:09:08.650 --> 0:09:10.360 you know, I'm curvy. But that was the way I 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:12.790 was meant to be. And what you said about wishing 0:09:12.790 --> 0:09:14.619 you could give my 19, 20 year old self a 0:09:14.620 --> 0:09:17.020 big hug. I wish the same thing, and I wish 0:09:17.020 --> 0:09:18.850 that I could have heard a story like mine, and 0:09:18.850 --> 0:09:21.670 I hope that other young women who are struggling might 0:09:21.670 --> 0:09:24.580 hear this story because these days, you know, 10 years 0:09:24.580 --> 0:09:27.090 after I was having these problems, I like my body. 0:09:27.100 --> 0:09:30.069 I can see how I was meant to be this way, 0:09:30.070 --> 0:09:33.250 and I love food. I love enjoying food, and I 0:09:33.250 --> 0:09:36.699 know how unhealthy and how ill I was back then 0:09:36.700 --> 0:09:39.010 when I was what I might have called slimmer test. 0:09:39.030 --> 0:09:41.800 Thank you so much. This really doesn't feel like something 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:44.569 that gets talked about, particularly in this community, and it's 0:09:44.620 --> 0:09:47.230 pretty generous of you to share your experience and earnings. 0:09:47.230 --> 0:09:49.000 Thank you. If this program 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.370 has brought up any issues for you, please 0:09:51.370 --> 0:09:53.560 contact Lifeline on 13, 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.680 11, 14 or online at Lifeline 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:58.030 dot org dot AEW. 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:00.370 The suicide call back service is one 0:10:00.370 --> 0:10:03.640 300 six five nine four six seven 0:10:03.910 --> 0:10:06.040 or online at Suicide Call Back 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:07.929 Service dot org. Today you 0:10:08.110 --> 0:10:11.200 there's beyondblue 1800 double to 0:10:11.470 --> 0:10:15.370 four, six, three six and online and beyond blue 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:17.050 dot org dot. Hey you! 0:10:17.230 --> 0:10:20.949 And let's continue the conversation by bringing in our first guest. 0:10:20.950 --> 0:10:24.070 Courtney Nikki Courtney is a trained psychologist who is works 0:10:24.070 --> 0:10:26.500 at Mission Australia for nearly 13 years in a number 0:10:26.500 --> 0:10:29.740 of capacities. Courtney, you've been listening in. What did you 0:10:29.740 --> 0:10:32.230 make of Tess's experience? There might be, I guess, a 0:10:32.230 --> 0:10:35.020 perception that this hyper awareness of your body or your image, 0:10:35.020 --> 0:10:37.720 if you're if you're blind, isn't that common? Is that 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:38.470 your understanding? 0:10:38.500 --> 0:10:40.920 Yeah, I think it's more common than most people realize. 0:10:40.929 --> 0:10:43.660 I mean, we're all getting messages as tested that we're 0:10:43.660 --> 0:10:46.570 not good enough from society through the media and through 0:10:46.570 --> 0:10:51.550 corporate advertising. But people with disabilities in particular are getting 0:10:51.550 --> 0:10:55.780 those messages and particularly about their body, and because people 0:10:55.780 --> 0:11:00.760 with disabilities can't necessarily avoid the stigma of disability. Sometimes 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:04.540 we seek approval of our bodies in other ways. Our 0:11:04.540 --> 0:11:07.090 bodies are a tangible thing, and we're told that we 0:11:07.090 --> 0:11:09.580 should be able to control them and we force the 0:11:09.580 --> 0:11:13.420 lie that everybody is supposed to be the same. And unfortunately, 0:11:13.420 --> 0:11:16.059 that keeps us busy instead of doing what we actually want, 0:11:16.059 --> 0:11:18.070 what's good for us. And I think people with vision 0:11:18.070 --> 0:11:21.280 impairments just as likely to be influenced by these pressures 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:22.050 as anyone else. 0:11:22.059 --> 0:11:24.849 And it was interesting tests you mentioned as well around 0:11:24.850 --> 0:11:27.819 your relationship with food. And obviously, we know food impacts 0:11:27.820 --> 0:11:30.130 how our body looks and how well it functions. But 0:11:30.130 --> 0:11:32.949 there's this whole raft of other roles that food plays 0:11:32.950 --> 0:11:36.489 in our lives, from social, cultural and emotional perspectives. Are 0:11:36.490 --> 0:11:38.650 there specific challenges around that if you're blind or have 0:11:38.650 --> 0:11:39.130 their vision? 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:44.860 I definitely say that there are, especially if you're out. 0:11:45.340 --> 0:11:47.979 So when I when I wasn't particularly well, I'd go 0:11:47.980 --> 0:11:49.929 out to a to a birthday or I'd even go 0:11:49.929 --> 0:11:53.350 out with friends and they would all want to go, 0:11:53.830 --> 0:11:56.380 you know, to go to a coffee shop or whatever. 0:11:56.380 --> 0:11:58.530 And you know, there were very few things that I 0:11:58.580 --> 0:12:00.130 feel like I could eat, and I would have to 0:12:00.130 --> 0:12:03.040 get them to read the whole menu and try and 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.170 find something that you know that I could eat. That 0:12:05.170 --> 0:12:08.319 was healthy enough. But also if I was going out 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:10.900 with friends and they all wanted to do something that 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.530 related to food, I couldn't just say, Oh, you guys 0:12:14.530 --> 0:12:16.910 get something to eat, chaps, I'll I'll go, you know, 0:12:16.929 --> 0:12:19.060 I'll go and, you know, look around the shops when 0:12:19.059 --> 0:12:20.920 you get something to eat. So I did feel a 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.050 sense of being a bit trapped in a bit anxious, 0:12:23.050 --> 0:12:24.970 which now I can see it. It's such a shame 0:12:24.970 --> 0:12:27.940 because as you say, poly food is such a social 0:12:27.940 --> 0:12:31.329 cultural thing. I mean, these days, I absolutely love food, 0:12:31.330 --> 0:12:33.190 all types of food, and I feel I find it's 0:12:33.190 --> 0:12:36.220 emotionally soothing. It's a wonderful thing to enjoy with friends, 0:12:36.230 --> 0:12:38.650 often with a glass of wine. But but yes, I 0:12:38.650 --> 0:12:41.170 do remember feeling quite quite trapped as somebody who was 0:12:41.170 --> 0:12:43.780 blind trying to find something that I that I could 0:12:43.780 --> 0:12:46.360 eat without, without feeling like I was blowing up by 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:48.730 the second, but also feeling feeling trapped into it. 0:12:48.850 --> 0:12:51.760 Courtney, you've you've mentioned as well in previous conversations about 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.750 how that idea about autonomy and agency when you're eating out. 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.110 Something that isn't necessarily a given if you're blind. 0:12:57.230 --> 0:12:59.270 Yeah, that's right. As Test mentioned, you don't have to 0:12:59.270 --> 0:13:02.860 rely on other people to understand what's available to you. 0:13:02.870 --> 0:13:06.500 And when somebody provides you with that route, it's really 0:13:06.500 --> 0:13:08.690 a take it or leave it type prospect because you 0:13:08.690 --> 0:13:11.239 don't have that ability to browse in the same way 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.270 that somebody whose voice on it has. And particularly if 0:13:14.270 --> 0:13:18.020 you've got dietary preferences as a vegetarian or vegan, I 0:13:18.020 --> 0:13:21.290 find that often my options are quite limited anyway. Yeah. 0:13:21.290 --> 0:13:26.060 So food plays many roles. Definitely. It's a form of 0:13:26.059 --> 0:13:30.670 comfort and pleasure. It's a way of exchanging love, as 0:13:30.809 --> 0:13:33.199 as mentioned. You know, when you're out with friends, you're 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.500 often sharing a meal together or you're even giving gifts 0:13:36.500 --> 0:13:39.560 of food. It can be an opportunity to escape or 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.740 take some time out from others, as well as any 0:13:42.740 --> 0:13:45.650 expectations you feel of being late on you. And it's 0:13:45.650 --> 0:13:48.679 a way of having choice and control, especially if you 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.320 don't necessarily have choice and control in other areas of 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:54.290 your life. So it makes a lot of emotional needs. 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:59.210 But as testers is also mentioned, unless the relationship with 0:13:59.210 --> 0:14:01.670 food is a healthy one, it can do a lot 0:14:01.670 --> 0:14:04.500 of damage to your pleasure in your own body, to 0:14:04.500 --> 0:14:07.400 your connection with others, and to an ability to do 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:10.130 what you want. Because you start to restrict yourself and 0:14:10.130 --> 0:14:13.370 prohibit yourself from taking action unless you're the perfect thing 0:14:13.370 --> 0:14:15.920 that you need to be. So I think what's important 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.319 to remember is that there are other ways of meeting 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:22.400 our emotional needs, of soothing our discomfort and feeling good, 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.880 and it's best to have a broad range of strategies 0:14:25.940 --> 0:14:27.110 and not just food. 0:14:27.380 --> 0:14:30.280 That's excellent advice, Courtney. Sort of a tool box of 0:14:30.290 --> 0:14:31.130 ways of coping 0:14:31.130 --> 0:14:32.150 with when things 0:14:32.150 --> 0:14:34.250 get tough or or whatever it might be. 0:14:34.460 --> 0:14:35.180 What's the likely? 0:14:35.390 --> 0:14:37.640 Do you think that there's a perception that if you're 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.370 blind or low vision, do image isn't something that you 0:14:40.370 --> 0:14:41.510 need to worry about? 0:14:41.690 --> 0:14:45.710 Yeah, I think some people assume that if you're not 0:14:45.710 --> 0:14:50.359 visually oriented, if you don't have vision, then you don't 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:54.020 need to adhere to the rules that a visual world 0:14:54.210 --> 0:14:57.440 lies down. But it's actually the opposite. I would assume 0:14:57.650 --> 0:15:00.230 that given that the world is set up for sighted 0:15:00.230 --> 0:15:03.830 people in order for vision impaired people to participate, to 0:15:03.830 --> 0:15:08.180 have friends and to have jobs and polite interactions in society, 0:15:08.180 --> 0:15:11.090 we have to learn about the visual norms, even though 0:15:11.090 --> 0:15:14.000 we don't have access to that visual information and we 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:17.000 have to do our best to meet them in the 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:21.290 social model of disability is something that tells us that 0:15:21.290 --> 0:15:24.080 because we're different from the norm, it is harder to 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.830 learn and to participate in a visual world because it's 0:15:27.830 --> 0:15:30.230 not set up to operate in the way that works 0:15:30.230 --> 0:15:32.510 for us. So we have to read a lot. We 0:15:32.510 --> 0:15:34.550 have to listen a lot. We have to develop work 0:15:34.550 --> 0:15:38.270 arounds and that can be exhausting. Andy started Exchange is 0:15:38.390 --> 0:15:41.330 one way, really because we're under the guise of others, 0:15:41.330 --> 0:15:44.330 but we're not necessarily able to see them ourselves. 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.330 Yeah, and particularly over the last year or so, many 0:15:47.330 --> 0:15:49.580 of us have kind of been the subject of prolonged 0:15:49.580 --> 0:15:54.740 visual exposure through Zoom meetings and various online get togethers. 0:15:55.010 --> 0:15:57.680 And there's that little box in the corner and your 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:00.350 sighted or not sighted. There's still that sense that your 0:16:00.350 --> 0:16:03.080 face is very much on display, and there's obviously the 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:05.390 option to turn off your video, but I guess that 0:16:05.390 --> 0:16:08.120 in itself sends a message. What's your take on this? 0:16:08.300 --> 0:16:12.380 Yeah. I think being watched by others is draining for anyone, 0:16:12.590 --> 0:16:15.920 but at the very least sighted person has the opportunity 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.980 to watch others. So it's a two way exchange, but 0:16:18.980 --> 0:16:22.520 it's a particular kind of relationship that a blind person 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.700 enters into understanding that they need to participate in the 0:16:25.700 --> 0:16:28.250 visual world, but sometimes wouldn't mind a bit of a 0:16:28.250 --> 0:16:31.820 reprieve from that. And so turning off the camera is 0:16:31.820 --> 0:16:35.540 an opportunity to focus in on the sense that we 0:16:35.540 --> 0:16:37.640 need to rely on because we don't have patients. So 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.550 our hearing and to not feel like we also then 0:16:40.550 --> 0:16:43.280 need to perform visually at the same time. 0:16:43.550 --> 0:16:45.710 Tess, how about you over the last year or so? 0:16:45.710 --> 0:16:47.520 Are you a video on girl or video of? 0:16:47.540 --> 0:16:48.350 Well, it really 0:16:48.350 --> 0:16:53.090 does depend it from a professional. You know, when I'm 0:16:53.090 --> 0:16:55.940 when I'm in work meetings, I often prefer to have 0:16:55.940 --> 0:16:59.060 my video off unless they particularly request it. I guess 0:16:59.060 --> 0:17:02.180 partly because it makes the internet wobbly of videos on sometimes, 0:17:02.180 --> 0:17:06.800 but also because because I just I do feel a 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:11.950 little bit less self-conscious about what I'm wearing, where I'm sitting. 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.080 I don't know what anybody else is, you know, is doing, 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:17.030 you know, whether they're all sort of dressed up in 0:17:17.030 --> 0:17:19.850 skirts and tops and whether I need to be or so. 0:17:19.850 --> 0:17:21.950 I do prefer to have the video off when I'm 0:17:21.950 --> 0:17:25.790 in a work meeting. But in a social meeting with friends, 0:17:25.790 --> 0:17:28.070 I often prefer to have the video on. Although I do, 0:17:28.070 --> 0:17:30.889 I feel I do feel sad that I can't see them. 0:17:30.890 --> 0:17:33.440 I mean, because I've so much missed that physical contact 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:34.940 with friends being able to give them a hug or 0:17:35.300 --> 0:17:37.250 hold their arm or whatever. But I'd love to be 0:17:37.250 --> 0:17:39.290 able to see them, but I do feel a bit 0:17:39.290 --> 0:17:43.100 more comforted that they at least can see me when 0:17:43.100 --> 0:17:45.139 I'm on Zoom and that that's what makes it a 0:17:45.140 --> 0:17:46.609 bit or face time. And that's what makes it a 0:17:46.609 --> 0:17:49.340 bit different and special. Rather than just talking on the 0:17:49.340 --> 0:17:51.560 phone that they can actually see me, they can see 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:54.080 a little bit into my house. They can see a 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.090 little bit more. Our entire life, so it does vary, 0:17:56.090 --> 0:17:58.370 but certainly at work, I feel very self-conscious. 0:17:58.430 --> 0:18:00.650 Courtney, what about you? VIDEO on or video off? 0:18:00.710 --> 0:18:03.020 I tend to be a video off person if I 0:18:03.230 --> 0:18:07.220 consider it to be within the realm of polite exchange. 0:18:07.730 --> 0:18:10.850 I do get asked pointedly to turn it on sometimes, 0:18:10.850 --> 0:18:14.690 and then I'll usually be comfortable to do that. That said, 0:18:14.690 --> 0:18:17.630 there are sometimes some technical barriers to me doing that 0:18:17.630 --> 0:18:19.760 because I've got a screen up in front of my face, 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.760 so I then have to sacrifice being able to orient 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:25.190 to what I can orient through on the screen by 0:18:25.190 --> 0:18:29.510 pushing that away. And just being there to be seen 0:18:29.510 --> 0:18:30.140 by others. 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:34.070 There's been some really interesting thinking around body positivity and 0:18:34.070 --> 0:18:38.670 celebrating all body shapes and more recently took of body neutrality. 0:18:38.690 --> 0:18:41.090 So rather than aiming to love your body, which can 0:18:41.090 --> 0:18:43.580 be really tough for many of us, the less challenging 0:18:43.580 --> 0:18:47.210 aspiration to become less emotionally influenced by how your body 0:18:47.210 --> 0:18:50.030 look if you're struggling with body image, what are some 0:18:50.030 --> 0:18:52.369 things that you can do to develop and maintain a 0:18:52.369 --> 0:18:53.510 healthy body image? 0:18:53.570 --> 0:18:58.010 Start listening to your body. Do what's loving in response 0:18:58.010 --> 0:19:00.800 to what you hear. We've got to meet our physical 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:05.209 needs through sleep and through movement that we enjoy and 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:09.500 through responding to our genuine hunger and what we need 0:19:09.500 --> 0:19:13.070 to do, especially if we've been experiencing the challenges of 0:19:13.070 --> 0:19:16.340 an eating disorder, is we've got to stop imposing what 0:19:16.340 --> 0:19:19.820 we think things should be and listen to what actually 0:19:19.820 --> 0:19:23.270 is what our body is really telling us. And mindfulness 0:19:23.270 --> 0:19:26.780 as a lot of really useful strategies for this, or 0:19:26.780 --> 0:19:28.489 if you want to keep it super simple, you can 0:19:28.490 --> 0:19:32.240 just pause and breathe and involve your breathing. Be aware 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:34.939 of what's going on. The second thing is to nurture 0:19:34.940 --> 0:19:39.109 yourself emotionally. It's as you've just said poly, or it 0:19:39.109 --> 0:19:42.980 only natural to feel conflicted about your body. Yeah, we 0:19:42.980 --> 0:19:45.139 want to love our body. We want to appreciate it 0:19:45.140 --> 0:19:48.230 and feel grateful for it. But sometimes we also feel 0:19:48.500 --> 0:19:51.770 compelled to change it to match the expectations of what 0:19:51.770 --> 0:19:54.440 we think the outside world requires of us. So we've 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.359 got to figure out some ways to get on good 0:19:56.450 --> 0:20:00.140 hands with the difference between what we actually are and 0:20:00.290 --> 0:20:05.150 what the external ideal is without punishing ourselves or hiding away. 0:20:05.210 --> 0:20:07.100 And some of the things that we can do, there 0:20:07.130 --> 0:20:10.370 are things like self-compassion, or we can simply show mercy 0:20:10.369 --> 0:20:13.520 to ourself. That's another way of thinking about it, because 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:15.710 a lot of the things that we say about ourselves, 0:20:15.710 --> 0:20:18.350 like what Tess is articulated to us, we would never 0:20:18.590 --> 0:20:21.950 dream to say to another person because they're so incredibly 0:20:21.950 --> 0:20:22.400 cruel 0:20:22.500 --> 0:20:25.310 that some of the words sorry to jump in quarterly, 0:20:25.310 --> 0:20:27.469 but somehow some of the words tests that you were 0:20:27.470 --> 0:20:31.490 using were really strong and I don't think be another 0:20:31.490 --> 0:20:33.290 person in the world that you'd say that to. And 0:20:33.290 --> 0:20:34.550 yet you were saying about yourself. 0:20:34.700 --> 0:20:36.650 And I think one of the things that Test was 0:20:36.650 --> 0:20:39.050 able to say on the flip side and and show 0:20:39.050 --> 0:20:42.380 us that, you know, when she became a healthier person 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.740 is how grateful she is for how beautiful her body 0:20:45.740 --> 0:20:48.859 is and to learn to really appreciate it's a gratitude 0:20:49.010 --> 0:20:52.129 is another thing that's very important. I would say that 0:20:52.460 --> 0:20:56.990 in this emotional nurturing space, you're also looking for social connections, 0:20:56.990 --> 0:20:59.570 and TESS is also mentioned where she's able to connect 0:20:59.570 --> 0:21:06.290 with others via telehealth via video conference because that gives 0:21:06.290 --> 0:21:09.830 us validation of our feelings and we're able to regulate 0:21:09.830 --> 0:21:13.340 so we're able to feel together in connection with another person. 0:21:13.460 --> 0:21:15.530 And then the third thing that we need to do 0:21:15.530 --> 0:21:20.140 is embrace the fact that everyone is different. That's the reality. Everyone, 0:21:20.150 --> 0:21:22.850 everybody is different and that's a good thing. 0:21:22.970 --> 0:21:26.450 Thank you both so much for sharing your own experience 0:21:26.450 --> 0:21:29.570 and Kourtney for coming with such compassion and really practical 0:21:29.570 --> 0:21:31.939 steps about what you can do to to develop and 0:21:31.940 --> 0:21:34.220 maintain that healthy body image. Thank you so much. 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:35.389 Thanks for having me, guys. 0:21:37.670 --> 0:21:41.540 You're listening to nothing's off limits. We're tennis and poly. 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:45.080 Did you know Vision Australia partners with the Melbourne Fashion 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:49.250 Festival to make its runways accessible through audio description? But 0:21:49.250 --> 0:21:52.250 more information go to Vision Australia dot org or call 0:21:52.250 --> 0:21:56.990 one 800 eight four seven four double six. Vision Australia 0:21:57.290 --> 0:21:59.720 Blindness Low Vision Opportunity. 0:21:59.960 --> 0:22:03.350 Our next guest is Samantha Hardy. Samantha is one of 0:22:03.350 --> 0:22:06.950 the voices you might hear if you called Vision Australia 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:10.070 as a Service Connect officer. Samantha plays a vital role 0:22:10.070 --> 0:22:14.119 connecting people with support services. Samantha herself has low vision 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.810 and is a sometime cane user. How important is appearance 0:22:17.810 --> 0:22:18.649 to you, Samantha? 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:21.020 I'd have to say it is quite important to me. 0:22:21.020 --> 0:22:25.040 I'm quite passionate about fashion than clothing in general. I 0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:29.930 still find people tend to expect people that are blind 0:22:29.930 --> 0:22:33.109 or vision impaired to sort of badly dressed and maybe 0:22:33.109 --> 0:22:35.600 a bit sort of downtrodden and not quite sort of 0:22:35.780 --> 0:22:38.900 fishing in to the world or with other people. And 0:22:38.900 --> 0:22:42.169 I really like to buck that trend. I really like 0:22:42.170 --> 0:22:45.380 to express myself in a way that shows that I'm 0:22:45.500 --> 0:22:49.670 confident and getting on with my life. Clothing can be 0:22:49.670 --> 0:22:52.070 a really powerful tool so that it's almost like a 0:22:52.070 --> 0:22:56.550 shorthand for telling people in the. You are people do 0:22:56.550 --> 0:22:59.850 tend to sort of make very quick judgments about who 0:22:59.850 --> 0:23:01.859 you are by your appearance. You know, 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:04.800 some people and I certainly usually one of them, they 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:07.680 might say, Oh, I'm just not interested in fashion. I mean, 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:10.050 it's just fashion, you know, comfort over fashion and all that. 0:23:10.260 --> 0:23:12.990 The appearance really goes deeper than fashion, doesn't it? 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:15.629 It sort of speaks to who you are in the 0:23:15.630 --> 0:23:18.750 world and how you want to express yourself. And I 0:23:18.750 --> 0:23:22.440 certainly get that for some people, particularly since they have 0:23:22.590 --> 0:23:25.260 low vision, the clothing might not be important to them. 0:23:25.260 --> 0:23:27.210 And I'm certainly not saying that it should be. I'm 0:23:27.210 --> 0:23:30.210 just sort of expressing my own feelings about it. When 0:23:30.210 --> 0:23:33.540 I first started using, I came, I went for quite 0:23:33.540 --> 0:23:36.510 a while, was listening to this one because it just 0:23:36.510 --> 0:23:39.510 felt really confronting. And eventually I accepted that it was 0:23:39.510 --> 0:23:41.400 going to be really useful to help me to get 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:44.459 around independently and do the things I wanted to do. 0:23:44.550 --> 0:23:46.530 So I learned how to use a cane, and I 0:23:46.530 --> 0:23:49.050 started using one. And when I first started using it, 0:23:49.050 --> 0:23:53.250 the experience was incredibly intense. It was like people's reactions 0:23:53.250 --> 0:23:56.160 were really quite extreme. And on the one hand, I 0:23:56.160 --> 0:23:59.159 was super visible in the community, but also at the 0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:02.490 same time, I became completely invisible. It's like people only 0:24:02.490 --> 0:24:05.460 saw a blind person with a cane, and they no 0:24:05.460 --> 0:24:08.280 longer saw me at all. And I got on a 0:24:08.280 --> 0:24:11.520 train with my time and still sort of dealing with 0:24:11.520 --> 0:24:14.040 people's reactions. And then I was sitting in the train 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:16.619 and this man got on like a stop after me. 0:24:16.710 --> 0:24:23.520 Absolutely fabulous looking like well-dressed, confident looking man in a 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:26.970 suit and a briefcase. He happened to be using the cane. 0:24:27.300 --> 0:24:30.719 I remember thinking, Yes, no one is going to be 0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:33.330 looking at that man thinking, Oh, that's so sad that 0:24:33.330 --> 0:24:37.230 man's blind, and they're just going to be thinking, Oh, 0:24:37.530 --> 0:24:42.090 this very confident, attractive man who obviously has a vision 0:24:42.090 --> 0:24:44.580 impairment and is using the cane. And I remember thinking, 0:24:44.580 --> 0:24:47.280 that's how I want to be in the world. 0:24:47.490 --> 0:24:49.619 So do you feel like when you before you are 0:24:49.619 --> 0:24:52.619 using your cane people, approached you in a very different 0:24:52.619 --> 0:24:54.480 way to to when it sounds like there was a 0:24:54.480 --> 0:24:57.540 real change in the way people perceived you just because 0:24:57.540 --> 0:24:58.530 you were holding the cane? 0:24:58.619 --> 0:25:01.650 There is, and there is still and there was, and 0:25:01.650 --> 0:25:04.320 I've spoken to lots of other people who experienced something 0:25:04.320 --> 0:25:06.899 quite similar to that. It can be can be really 0:25:06.900 --> 0:25:10.440 extreme people's reactions. And I'm not completely blind, whatever that, 0:25:10.470 --> 0:25:12.690 whatever that might be. But I have some. I have 0:25:12.690 --> 0:25:16.080 some vision, so I use the cane because I can't 0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:20.250 tell distances or depth or I don't see any details. 0:25:20.250 --> 0:25:22.650 So it helps me, helps to keep me safe. But 0:25:22.650 --> 0:25:26.250 I actually can still part of the time see people's 0:25:26.250 --> 0:25:29.970 reactions to Cane. I can see them hesitating. I can 0:25:29.970 --> 0:25:32.130 see them doing weird things with it, and I can 0:25:32.130 --> 0:25:34.560 see them staring at me. I get both. I'm using 0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:37.050 the cane, but then I also I'm aware of people's 0:25:37.050 --> 0:25:38.040 reactions to it. 0:25:38.250 --> 0:25:41.100 So how do we go about finding out what the 0:25:41.100 --> 0:25:43.740 visual norms are, whether or not we we follow 0:25:43.740 --> 0:25:46.109 or defy them? I guess I'm only aware of some 0:25:46.109 --> 0:25:48.630 visual norms and lots of things. I'm aware that I'm 0:25:48.630 --> 0:25:52.170 probably missing like eye contact and things like that. But 0:25:52.290 --> 0:25:55.469 what I've done is enlisted the help of some of 0:25:55.470 --> 0:25:58.770 my trusted family and friends just to kind of give 0:25:58.770 --> 0:26:01.650 me a bit of guidance when I need it so 0:26:01.650 --> 0:26:04.169 that I can sort of I guess for me, it's 0:26:04.170 --> 0:26:07.350 a simplified version. I don't take too many crazy risks 0:26:07.350 --> 0:26:09.660 because I don't really can't really see what I'm wearing 0:26:09.660 --> 0:26:12.960 that well, but just to help me to feel like 0:26:13.109 --> 0:26:16.230 I'm dressing well in the world. 0:26:16.320 --> 0:26:19.890 Are there ways in which we can use our appearance 0:26:19.890 --> 0:26:23.730 and demeanor to give the impression of being confident, more 0:26:23.730 --> 0:26:25.020 confident that we perhaps are? 0:26:25.050 --> 0:26:27.780 I think I learnt from another friend of mine who's 0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:31.350 he's a cane user. I was finding that I was 0:26:31.350 --> 0:26:34.050 having a lot of trouble using McCain, as I've already mentioned, 0:26:34.070 --> 0:26:38.430 and when I went out with an amazing mind and 0:26:38.550 --> 0:26:42.629 she is just so incredibly confident, almost aggressive. It's so 0:26:42.660 --> 0:26:45.540 she's very lovely. And so you could never describe it 0:26:45.540 --> 0:26:47.850 as aggressive but just super confident. And I find that 0:26:47.850 --> 0:26:51.090 people react really differently to combat as a woman on 0:26:51.090 --> 0:26:53.490 a mission who doesn't need any help. I'll just get 0:26:53.490 --> 0:26:55.950 out of her way, and I promise I find that 0:26:55.950 --> 0:26:58.320 that really works for her. And I actually there's a 0:26:58.320 --> 0:27:01.110 lot by being out with her and observing what she 0:27:01.109 --> 0:27:03.149 does and how she moves in the world. 0:27:03.240 --> 0:27:05.950 Samantha, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you today. 0:27:05.970 --> 0:27:09.330 Thanks for joining us. Remember, you can download Nothing's Off 0:27:09.330 --> 0:27:13.560 Limits via the Vision Australia website at Vision Australia dot org. 0:27:13.560 --> 0:27:16.980 That's Vision Australia dot org. Just search for nothing's off 0:27:16.980 --> 0:27:19.379 limits into the search engine, and you'll be directed to 0:27:19.380 --> 0:27:21.840 a web page where you can view this episode and 0:27:21.840 --> 0:27:24.600 earlier episodes, and please make sure you subscribe so you 0:27:24.600 --> 0:27:27.120 don't miss any. Also, you can tune in via Vision 0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:30.359 Australia radio. We've gathered up all the contact details of 0:27:30.359 --> 0:27:33.840 the organisations mentioned in this episode and put them on 0:27:33.840 --> 0:27:36.900 the Vision Australia website. You can also find there a 0:27:36.900 --> 0:27:40.619 great webinar with Chloe Norton from the Melbourne Fashion Festival 0:27:40.710 --> 0:27:43.470 about how we can find and dress to our style. 0:27:49.170 --> 0:27:53.010 That was nothing's off limits. 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