WEBVTT - Nothings off Limits - Body Image and Appearance (Ep6) 0:00:03.850 --> 0:00:07.960 Nothing's off limits, things off limits, bringing together experts and 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:11.170 people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love 0:00:11.170 --> 0:00:14.560 to avoid, but absolutely need to talk about me with 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:18.640 the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:21.370 and capacity building grant building grants. 0:00:23.500 --> 0:00:27.250 Hello and welcome to the series where nothing's off limits. 0:00:27.310 --> 0:00:30.430 My name is Polly and together with my co-host Tess 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:33.610 over ten episodes, we're exploring some of those topics which 0:00:33.610 --> 0:00:36.879 we might usually consider off limits and discussing them openly 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:39.720 and honestly and through the specific lens of blindness and 0:00:39.850 --> 0:00:41.950 vision with the help of expert guests. 0:00:42.070 --> 0:00:43.900 And there'll be more information at the end of the 0:00:43.900 --> 0:00:46.870 show about how you can catch this episode and other 0:00:46.870 --> 0:00:49.930 episodes of Nothing's Off Limits on the Vision Australia website. 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.889 In this episode, we're talking about body image and appearance. 0:00:53.950 --> 0:00:56.580 What do we mean when we talk about body image? 0:00:56.590 --> 0:00:58.690 And how do you connect with that concept if you 0:00:58.690 --> 0:01:01.720 want primarily visual? What perceptions do you have of your 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.270 own and others appearance if you are blind to have 0:01:04.270 --> 0:01:06.759 no vision? What messages are we sending through the way 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:09.190 we present ourselves? And how do you find out what 0:01:09.190 --> 0:01:12.280 society's rules of what someone should look like are an 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:14.770 exercise your right to follow or break those rules on 0:01:14.770 --> 0:01:18.069 your own terms? This is an emotive topic for those 0:01:18.090 --> 0:01:20.800 protests and me, and if you were affected by any 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:23.920 of the issues in the show, please contact Lifeline on 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:28.180 one three one one one four or the Butterfly Foundation, 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:32.200 the national charity for all Australians impacted by eating disorders 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:34.840 and body image issues, and for the families, friends and 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:38.170 community to support them. Their national helpline number is one 0:01:38.170 --> 0:01:41.920 800 three four six seven three. The way we dress 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.620 and style our hair or makeup is one component of 0:01:44.620 --> 0:01:47.830 creating and expressing body image. Here at Vision Australia, we've 0:01:47.830 --> 0:01:49.900 done a number of projects to make the world of 0:01:49.900 --> 0:01:53.950 fashion more accessible, including partnering with Melbourne Fashion Festival to 0:01:53.950 --> 0:01:57.160 audio describe some ways. The interest in these has really 0:01:57.160 --> 0:01:59.560 debunked the perception that if you are blind or have 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:01.630 low vision fashion and the way you look is not 0:02:01.630 --> 0:02:05.020 a priority to test this further, we asked you how 0:02:05.020 --> 0:02:07.630 much does appearance and body image matter to you? 0:02:08.380 --> 0:02:17.560 Nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly Polly. How much 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.230 does appearance and body image matter to you? 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:23.600 It doesn't personally matter much to me. It matters other people. 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:25.239 And I think sometimes that's quite sad. 0:02:26.770 --> 0:02:29.919 When I'm walking around the house, I won't necessarily see 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.230 in the hallway. Mirror is a big of jam on 0:02:32.230 --> 0:02:35.680 my lap or that I've got child related grot running 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.470 down the front of my T-shirt. It's very embarrassing when 0:02:38.470 --> 0:02:41.019 somebody pointed out, and I guess I need to learn 0:02:41.020 --> 0:02:44.770 to be more open and receptive when people pointing this 0:02:44.770 --> 0:02:46.630 stuff out to me. Other than that, I don't think 0:02:46.630 --> 0:02:49.089 I smell too bad. Although a shower is never a 0:02:49.090 --> 0:02:51.610 relaxing experience for me, I'm always worried that I'm going 0:02:51.610 --> 0:02:52.780 to fall on the backside. 0:02:55.620 --> 0:03:00.209 Not too much. What's inside a person is what matters. Oh, 0:03:00.210 --> 0:03:02.630 probably a six or seven out of 10. I am. 0:03:02.630 --> 0:03:05.190 I like to look nice, but I'm not going to 0:03:05.190 --> 0:03:09.359 go crazy over it. It matters to me a lot 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:14.860 because I like to present well in all different situations. 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:17.010 Does being blind can make you more conscious of how 0:03:17.010 --> 0:03:20.400 you present yourself? Yes, definitely. And it's something that you 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.220 learn as you get older. It's not something that comes 0:03:23.220 --> 0:03:24.210 to people naturally. 0:03:24.389 --> 0:03:26.610 It matters actually quite a lot to me, and I 0:03:26.610 --> 0:03:29.250 think it was when you're blind you because you don't 0:03:29.250 --> 0:03:31.380 see what other people look like. Sometimes it can be 0:03:31.380 --> 0:03:34.110 easy to have quite a distorted view of yourself because 0:03:34.110 --> 0:03:36.420 you can't see what's around you. You actually don't know 0:03:36.420 --> 0:03:38.550 where you often fit in the scheme of things. You know, 0:03:38.550 --> 0:03:41.400 you might think you're quite overweight, but you may not 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:44.220 be well the other way around. You know, you might 0:03:44.220 --> 0:03:47.010 think that, you know, a certain something looks good on you. 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:49.320 And I guess if you feel good, that's all that matters. 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:51.390 But for me, it is quite important. 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:55.080 Body image and appearance are really important to me, both 0:03:55.090 --> 0:03:56.940 my own and others that I'm 0:03:56.940 --> 0:04:01.920 with in the conventional sense. I'm a man in my mid-40s, 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:04.200 so I've put on a few pounds. But actually in 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:08.100 this country full of sunny, tanned people, I thin white 0:04:08.100 --> 0:04:10.830 and hairy, which is why they see me wear Arashi 0:04:10.830 --> 0:04:12.720 indoors at the swimming pool. In terms of that, in 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:16.080 the context of sight. I wear sunglasses and I'm still 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:18.390 a little self-conscious about it. But when you don't wear 0:04:18.390 --> 0:04:19.890 a set glass, you go, I'm going to a day 0:04:19.890 --> 0:04:23.070 just being me, not me wearing glasses. May you put 0:04:23.070 --> 0:04:25.109 on a pair of contact lenses whenever I stop to 0:04:25.110 --> 0:04:27.630 look at my phone, read a menu or squint at 0:04:27.630 --> 0:04:30.359 a bus stop. There's always some smart alec who comes 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.390 up to you and says, Oh, you need glasses, mate. Like, 0:04:33.390 --> 0:04:34.620 I haven't thought of that before. 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.380 I would say it matters quite a lot. I was 0:04:37.380 --> 0:04:39.989 born vision impaired. I have low vision when I was 0:04:39.990 --> 0:04:42.510 first learning to use a mobility cane and I found 0:04:42.510 --> 0:04:46.260 it very confronting the way people were reacting to me 0:04:46.980 --> 0:04:50.909 and nervousness, and I was getting a train with my cane. 0:04:50.970 --> 0:04:53.970 It's amazing. Man got onto the train. He was young, 0:04:54.089 --> 0:04:57.299 really beautifully dressed in like a three piece suit and 0:04:57.300 --> 0:05:01.650 a briefcase looked sleek and professional, and he was using 0:05:01.650 --> 0:05:04.860 a cane. I noticed that everyone was reacting very differently 0:05:04.860 --> 0:05:07.500 to him. He was using his cane very confidently, and 0:05:07.500 --> 0:05:10.230 he looked very much like he was successful in the world. 0:05:10.230 --> 0:05:12.780 And I was just really impressed by it made me 0:05:12.779 --> 0:05:16.739 think how much? It's great to be well dressed when 0:05:16.740 --> 0:05:18.270 your vision impaired for me anyway. 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:21.930 Tess, you've graciously agreed to take off your hosting hat 0:05:21.930 --> 0:05:24.690 for a moment to share a story about your experience 0:05:24.690 --> 0:05:27.310 navigating body image. As a young woman who is blind 0:05:27.330 --> 0:05:29.880 when you were in your late teens, early 20s, you 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:32.970 have quite a negative relationship with how you perceived your body. 0:05:33.029 --> 0:05:36.900 Even when I was a younger teenager, 14 15, I 0:05:36.900 --> 0:05:39.539 didn't really like the way my body looked. I didn't 0:05:39.540 --> 0:05:42.450 think I was tall enough, slim enough. But it really 0:05:42.450 --> 0:05:46.170 took a toll when I was about 19. The year before, 0:05:46.170 --> 0:05:49.950 I'd taken some tablets to help me with hormone related 0:05:49.950 --> 0:05:54.180 difficulties and my body had undergone some changes. The time 0:05:54.180 --> 0:05:56.460 came that there was an event that I was going to, 0:05:56.460 --> 0:05:58.979 and I wore addressed. Various bits of my body was 0:05:58.980 --> 0:06:01.589 sort of not quite fitting into it, and I really did. 0:06:01.589 --> 0:06:04.830 I felt genuine repulsion and I just thought it is 0:06:04.830 --> 0:06:06.810 just because I don't look right. I'm too fat, I'm 0:06:06.810 --> 0:06:09.510 too I'm too swollen. I was also experiencing a lot 0:06:09.510 --> 0:06:12.540 of anxiety that that was I can't say it was unrelated, 0:06:12.540 --> 0:06:15.419 but it was at. The anxiety was about all sorts 0:06:15.420 --> 0:06:17.760 of aspects of my life, and I felt like the 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:19.830 only thing I could really have control over was how 0:06:19.830 --> 0:06:22.620 much I ate or didn't eat. And so combining this 0:06:22.620 --> 0:06:27.080 repulsion with the way I looked and my need for control, 0:06:27.089 --> 0:06:30.930 I really started to engage in some fairly self-destructive behaviours, 0:06:30.930 --> 0:06:33.989 like starving myself periods, trying to make myself sick, trying 0:06:33.990 --> 0:06:36.180 to bloat myself in order to make myself sick. So 0:06:36.180 --> 0:06:38.580 it was something not right about my body, and the 0:06:38.580 --> 0:06:42.930 world was full of thin, beautiful women and I was 0:06:42.930 --> 0:06:45.120 not one of them. And therefore I wasn't fit to 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:48.150 wear nice clothes. I wasn't fit to do anything except 0:06:48.150 --> 0:06:51.000 just try and make myself a little bit less horrifying. 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:54.280 And that behaviour continued for a couple of years and tests. 0:06:54.900 --> 0:06:57.930 Some people might be curious as to how you have 0:06:57.930 --> 0:07:01.260 these pressures, perceived pressures around how you look and when 0:07:01.260 --> 0:07:03.539 you are yourself blind. What was driving them? 0:07:03.540 --> 0:07:05.820 Do you think I was feeling like I wasn't fitting 0:07:05.820 --> 0:07:09.060 into my clothes? There was a particular time where I 0:07:09.060 --> 0:07:12.110 wore a dress and my breasts had to be sort of, 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.040 I guess we had to use a bit of tape 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:17.280 because my breasts were too were too big. And then 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:19.560 we're sort of coming out. I've always been interested in 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:21.840 the visual world around me and wanting to know what 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.930 my family and friends look like. And I suppose my 0:07:24.930 --> 0:07:27.180 perceptions of a lot of them were that they were 0:07:27.180 --> 0:07:30.880 tall and thin, that I was short and fat. It's 0:07:30.900 --> 0:07:33.300 hard because I couldn't look into a mirror. I couldn't 0:07:33.300 --> 0:07:36.180 really see what I looked like. All I could see 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.630 was if I occasionally was brave enough to stand on 0:07:39.630 --> 0:07:42.090 the scales, and even though I was average weight, it 0:07:42.090 --> 0:07:44.460 didn't seem enough. And you know, so I'd I'd be 0:07:44.460 --> 0:07:46.830 pinching my waist to try and find out how I 0:07:46.830 --> 0:07:49.500 looked there or not. In my mind, I was squeezing 0:07:49.500 --> 0:07:53.430 handfuls of fat that manifested in, you know, starving myself, 0:07:53.430 --> 0:07:56.850 trying to make myself sick and. Also exercising a bit 0:07:56.850 --> 0:07:57.770 too much, Tess, 0:07:57.790 --> 0:07:59.400 I wish I could travel back in time and give 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:00.600 your younger self just the 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:01.290 biggest hug. 0:08:01.470 --> 0:08:02.760 How did you get through this? 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:08.450 I through it. I had a lot of friends and family. 0:08:08.460 --> 0:08:10.260 I took me a couple of years to tell my family, 0:08:10.260 --> 0:08:12.300 but when they knew they were fantastic, I mean, my 0:08:12.300 --> 0:08:14.550 sister saw that I wasn't eating very much and that 0:08:14.550 --> 0:08:16.890 I would take any excuse not to eat. My family 0:08:16.890 --> 0:08:18.840 were living a few hours away, so they they want 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:21.030 to know, and a few friends of mine knew, and 0:08:21.030 --> 0:08:25.010 they encouraged me to seek professional help. So I did that. 0:08:25.020 --> 0:08:27.000 I think I went to a support group with a friend. 0:08:27.010 --> 0:08:28.950 I think it was about six months after I started 0:08:28.950 --> 0:08:32.340 having these problems. For a couple of years, I had, 0:08:32.340 --> 0:08:35.069 you know, counselling on and off. Sometimes I would feel 0:08:35.070 --> 0:08:37.349 OK about my body and then I'd spiral. But then 0:08:37.350 --> 0:08:40.319 I got to about 23 24, and I just started 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:44.070 to experience a more positive feel about my body. I 0:08:44.070 --> 0:08:47.490 stopped feeling quite so repulsed by it, and I started 0:08:47.490 --> 0:08:49.710 feeling like I was actually. This was the way I 0:08:49.710 --> 0:08:51.840 was meant to look. And I think it was as 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.480 much the counselling and support and affirmation of family and 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.150 friends that really helped me get there. By the time 0:08:57.150 --> 0:09:00.780 I was 23 24, I finally got to a stage. 0:09:00.809 --> 0:09:03.720 After all that support where I could be proud of 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:05.640 my body, I mean, you know, I'm not, I'm not tall, 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.609 but I'm not short. I'm not slim, but I'm not fat. I'm, 0:09:08.610 --> 0:09:10.320 you know, I'm curvy. But that was the way I 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:12.750 was meant to be. And what you said about wishing 0:09:12.750 --> 0:09:14.579 you could give my 19, 20 year old self a 0:09:14.580 --> 0:09:16.979 big hug. I wish the same thing, and I wish 0:09:16.980 --> 0:09:18.810 that I could have heard a story like mine, and 0:09:18.809 --> 0:09:21.630 I hope that other young women who are struggling might 0:09:21.630 --> 0:09:24.540 hear this story because these days, you know, 10 years 0:09:24.540 --> 0:09:27.050 after I was having these problems, I like my body. 0:09:27.059 --> 0:09:30.030 I can see how I was meant to be this way, 0:09:30.030 --> 0:09:33.210 and I love food. I love enjoying food, and I 0:09:33.210 --> 0:09:36.630 know how unhealthy and how ill I was back then 0:09:36.630 --> 0:09:38.970 when I was what I might have called slimmer test. 0:09:38.980 --> 0:09:41.760 Thank you so much. This really doesn't feel like something 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.550 that gets talked about, particularly in this community, and it's 0:09:44.580 --> 0:09:47.190 pretty generous of you to share your experience and earnings. 0:09:47.190 --> 0:09:47.820 Thank you. 0:09:47.970 --> 0:09:50.820 If this program has brought up any issues for you, 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:56.069 please contact Lifeline on 13, 11, 14 or online at 0:09:56.070 --> 0:09:59.730 Lifeline dot org dot AEW. The suicide call back service 0:09:59.730 --> 0:10:04.080 is one 300 six five nine four six seven or 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.890 online at Suicide Call Back Service dot org. Today you 0:10:08.070 --> 0:10:13.559 there's beyondblue 1800 double to four, six, three six and 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:17.010 online and beyond blue dot org dot. Hey you! 0:10:17.190 --> 0:10:20.910 And let's continue the conversation by bringing in our first guest. 0:10:20.910 --> 0:10:24.089 Courtney Nicky Courtney is a trained psychologist who works at 0:10:24.090 --> 0:10:27.840 Mission Australia for nearly 13 years in a number of capacities. Courtney, 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:31.320 you've been listening in. What did you make of Tess's experience? 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:33.300 There might be, I guess, a perception that this hyper 0:10:33.300 --> 0:10:35.640 awareness of your body or your image, if you're if 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:38.430 you're blind, isn't that common? Is that your understanding? 0:10:38.460 --> 0:10:40.880 Yeah, I think it's more common than most people realize. 0:10:40.890 --> 0:10:43.620 I mean, we're all getting messages as tested that we're 0:10:43.620 --> 0:10:46.530 not good enough from society through the media and through 0:10:46.530 --> 0:10:51.510 corporate advertising. But people with disabilities in particular are getting 0:10:51.510 --> 0:10:55.740 those messages and particularly about their body, and because people 0:10:55.740 --> 0:11:00.720 with disabilities can't necessarily avoid the stigma of disability. Sometimes 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:04.500 we seek approval of our bodies in other ways. Our 0:11:04.500 --> 0:11:07.020 bodies are a tangible thing, and we're told that we 0:11:07.020 --> 0:11:09.540 should be able to control them and we force the 0:11:09.540 --> 0:11:13.380 lie that everybody is supposed to be the same. And unfortunately, 0:11:13.380 --> 0:11:15.990 that keeps us busy instead of doing what we actually want, 0:11:15.990 --> 0:11:18.030 what's good for us. And I think people with vision 0:11:18.030 --> 0:11:21.240 impairments just as likely to be influenced by these pressures 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:22.010 as anyone else. 0:11:22.020 --> 0:11:24.780 And it was interesting tests you mentioned as well around 0:11:24.780 --> 0:11:27.780 your relationship with food. And obviously, we know food impacts 0:11:27.780 --> 0:11:30.090 how our body looks and how well it functions. But 0:11:30.090 --> 0:11:32.910 there's this whole raft of other roles that food plays 0:11:32.910 --> 0:11:36.449 in our lives, from social, cultural and emotional perspectives. Are 0:11:36.450 --> 0:11:38.610 there specific challenges around that if you're blind to have 0:11:38.610 --> 0:11:39.090 that vision? 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:44.820 I'd definitely say that there are, especially if you're out. 0:11:45.300 --> 0:11:47.939 So when I when I wasn't particularly well, I'd go 0:11:47.940 --> 0:11:49.890 out to a to a birthday or I'd even go 0:11:49.890 --> 0:11:53.310 out with friends and they would all want to go, 0:11:53.790 --> 0:11:56.339 you know, to it, to a coffee shop or whatever. 0:11:56.340 --> 0:11:58.500 And you know, there were very few things that I 0:11:58.540 --> 0:12:00.090 feel like I could eat, and I would have to 0:12:00.090 --> 0:12:03.000 get them to read the whole menu and try and 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.130 find something that you know that I could eat. That 0:12:05.130 --> 0:12:08.280 was healthy enough. But also if I was going out 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:10.860 with friends and they all wanted to do something that 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:14.490 related to food, I couldn't just say, Oh, you guys 0:12:14.490 --> 0:12:16.870 get something to eat, chaps, I'll I'll go, you know, 0:12:16.890 --> 0:12:19.010 I'll go and, you know, look around the shops when 0:12:19.020 --> 0:12:20.880 you get something to eat. So I did feel a 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.010 sense of being a bit trapped in a bit anxious, 0:12:23.010 --> 0:12:24.930 which now I can see it. It's such a shame 0:12:24.929 --> 0:12:27.900 because as you say, poly food is such a social 0:12:27.900 --> 0:12:31.290 cultural thing. I mean, these days, I absolutely love food, 0:12:31.290 --> 0:12:33.150 all types of food, and I feel I find it's 0:12:33.150 --> 0:12:36.170 emotionally soothing. It's a wonderful thing to enjoy with friends, 0:12:36.190 --> 0:12:38.610 often with a glass of wine. But but yes, I 0:12:38.610 --> 0:12:41.130 do remember feeling quite quite trapped as somebody who was 0:12:41.130 --> 0:12:43.709 blind trying to find something that I that I could 0:12:43.710 --> 0:12:46.319 eat without, without feeling like I was blowing up by 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:48.689 the second, but also feeling feeling trapped into it. 0:12:48.809 --> 0:12:51.719 Courtney, you've you've mentioned as well in previous conversations about 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.710 how the idea about autonomy and agency when you're eating out. 0:12:54.790 --> 0:12:57.069 Something that isn't necessarily a given if you're blind. 0:12:57.190 --> 0:12:59.230 Yeah, that's right. As Test mentioned, you don't have to 0:12:59.230 --> 0:13:02.820 rely on other people to understand what's available to you. 0:13:02.830 --> 0:13:06.459 And when somebody provides you with that food, it's really 0:13:06.460 --> 0:13:08.650 a take it or leave it type prospect because you 0:13:08.650 --> 0:13:11.199 don't have that ability to browse in the same way 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.230 that somebody whose voice on it has. And particularly if 0:13:14.230 --> 0:13:17.980 you've got dietary preferences as a vegetarian or vegan, I 0:13:17.980 --> 0:13:21.250 find that often my options are quite limited anyway. Yeah. 0:13:21.250 --> 0:13:25.990 So food plays many roles. Definitely. It's a form of 0:13:26.050 --> 0:13:30.630 comfort and pleasure. It's a way of exchanging love, as 0:13:30.730 --> 0:13:33.160 as mentioned. You know, when you're out with friends, you're 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.460 often sharing a meal together or you're even giving gifts 0:13:36.460 --> 0:13:39.520 of food. It can be an opportunity to escape or 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.700 take some time out from others, as well as any 0:13:42.700 --> 0:13:45.610 expectations you feel of being late on you. And it's 0:13:45.610 --> 0:13:48.610 a way of having choice and control, especially if you 0:13:48.610 --> 0:13:51.280 don't necessarily have choice and control in other areas of 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:54.250 your life. So it makes a lot of emotional needs. 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:59.170 But as testers is also mentioned, unless the relationship with 0:13:59.170 --> 0:14:01.630 food is a healthy one, it can do a lot 0:14:01.630 --> 0:14:04.449 of damage to your pleasure in your own body, to 0:14:04.460 --> 0:14:07.360 your connection with others, and to an ability to do 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.090 what you want. Because you start to restrict yourself and 0:14:10.090 --> 0:14:13.330 prohibit yourself from taking action unless you're the perfect thing 0:14:13.330 --> 0:14:15.880 that you need to be. So I think what's important 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.280 to remember is that there are other ways of meeting 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:22.360 our emotional needs, of soothing our discomfort and feeling good, 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.869 and it's best to have a broad range of strategies 0:14:25.870 --> 0:14:27.070 and not just food. 0:14:27.340 --> 0:14:30.240 That's excellent advice, Courtney. Sort of a tool box of 0:14:30.250 --> 0:14:33.220 ways of coping with when things get tough or or 0:14:33.260 --> 0:14:34.210 whatever it might be. 0:14:34.420 --> 0:14:35.140 What's the likely? 0:14:35.350 --> 0:14:37.600 Do you think that there's a perception that if you're 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.330 blind or low vision, do image isn't something that you 0:14:40.330 --> 0:14:43.750 need to worry about? Yeah, I think some people assume 0:14:43.750 --> 0:14:49.360 that if you're not visually oriented, if you don't have vision, 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.930 then you don't need to adhere to the rules that 0:14:52.930 --> 0:14:56.460 are visual world mice down. But it's actually the opposite. 0:14:56.470 --> 0:14:59.290 I would assume that given that the world is set 0:14:59.290 --> 0:15:02.590 up for sighted people in order for vision impaired people 0:15:02.590 --> 0:15:06.100 to participate, to have friends and to have jobs and 0:15:06.100 --> 0:15:09.520 polite interactions in society, we have to learn about the 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.460 visual norms, even though we don't have access to that 0:15:12.460 --> 0:15:15.670 visual information and we have to do our best to 0:15:15.670 --> 0:15:20.050 meet them in the social model of disability is something 0:15:20.050 --> 0:15:22.950 that tells us that because we're different from the norm, 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:26.650 it is harder to learn and to participate in a 0:15:26.650 --> 0:15:29.440 visual world because it's not set up to operate in 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:31.690 the way that works for us. So we have to 0:15:31.690 --> 0:15:33.520 read a lot. We have to listen a lot, we 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.380 have to develop work arounds and that can be exhausting. 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:40.359 Andy started Exchange is one way, really because we're under 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:42.880 the guise of others, but we're not necessarily able to 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:44.290 see them ourselves. 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.290 Yeah, and particularly over the last year or so, many 0:15:47.290 --> 0:15:49.510 of us have kind of been the subject of prolonged 0:15:49.510 --> 0:15:54.700 visual exposure through Zoom meetings and various online get togethers. 0:15:54.970 --> 0:15:57.640 And there's that little box in the corner and feel 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:00.310 sighted or not sighted. There's still that sense that your 0:16:00.310 --> 0:16:03.010 face is very much on display, and there's obviously the 0:16:03.010 --> 0:16:05.350 option to turn off your video, but I guess that 0:16:05.350 --> 0:16:08.080 in itself sends a message. What's your take on this? 0:16:08.230 --> 0:16:12.340 Yeah, I think being watched by others is draining for anyone, 0:16:12.550 --> 0:16:15.880 but at the very least sighted person has the opportunity 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.940 to watch others. So it's a two way exchange, but 0:16:18.940 --> 0:16:22.479 it's a particular kind of relationship that a blind person 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.660 enters into understanding that they need to participate in the 0:16:25.660 --> 0:16:28.210 visual world, but sometimes wouldn't mind a bit of a 0:16:28.210 --> 0:16:31.780 reprieve from that. And so turning off the camera is 0:16:31.780 --> 0:16:35.500 an opportunity to focus in on the sense that we 0:16:35.500 --> 0:16:37.600 need to rely on because we don't have patients who 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.510 are hearing and to not feel like we also then 0:16:40.510 --> 0:16:43.240 need to perform visually at the same time. 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:45.670 Tess, how about you over the last year or so? 0:16:45.670 --> 0:16:47.480 Are you a video on girl or video of? 0:16:47.500 --> 0:16:48.010 Well, it 0:16:48.010 --> 0:16:52.840 really does depend it from a professional. You know, when 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:55.750 I'm when I'm in work meetings, I often prefer to 0:16:55.750 --> 0:16:58.840 have my video off unless they particularly request it. I 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.450 guess partly because it makes the internet wobbly of videos 0:17:01.450 --> 0:17:06.400 on sometimes, but also because because I just I do 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:10.570 feel a little bit less self-conscious about what I'm wearing, 0:17:10.690 --> 0:17:13.840 where I'm sitting. I don't know what anybody else is, 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.300 you know, is doing, you know, whether they're all sort 0:17:16.300 --> 0:17:18.369 of dressed up in skirts and tops and whether I 0:17:18.369 --> 0:17:20.680 need to be or so. I do prefer to have 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.710 the video off when I'm in a work meeting. But 0:17:23.710 --> 0:17:26.470 in a social meeting with friends, I often prefer to 0:17:26.470 --> 0:17:28.929 have the video on. Although I do, I feel I 0:17:28.930 --> 0:17:31.150 do feel sad that I can't see them. I mean, 0:17:31.150 --> 0:17:33.790 because I've so much missed that physical contact with friends 0:17:33.790 --> 0:17:35.650 being able to give them a hug or hold their 0:17:35.650 --> 0:17:37.419 arm or whatever. But I'd love to be able to 0:17:37.420 --> 0:17:40.449 see them, but I do feel a bit more comforted 0:17:40.450 --> 0:17:43.300 that they at least can see me when I'm on 0:17:43.300 --> 0:17:45.540 Zoom and that that's what makes it a bit or 0:17:45.550 --> 0:17:47.170 face time. And that's what makes it a bit different 0:17:47.170 --> 0:17:49.659 and special. Rather than just talking on the phone that 0:17:49.660 --> 0:17:51.760 they can actually see me, they can see a little 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.250 bit into my house. They can see a little bit 0:17:54.250 --> 0:17:56.770 more into. I live, so it does vary, but certainly 0:17:56.770 --> 0:17:58.330 at work, I feel very self-conscious. 0:17:58.390 --> 0:18:00.369 Courtney, what about you video or video 0:18:00.369 --> 0:18:02.640 of I tend to be a video off person if 0:18:02.650 --> 0:18:07.179 I consider it to be within the realm of polite exchange. 0:18:07.690 --> 0:18:10.810 I do get asked pointedly to turn it on sometimes, 0:18:10.810 --> 0:18:14.650 and then I'll usually be comfortable to do that. That said, 0:18:14.650 --> 0:18:17.590 there are sometimes some technical barriers to me doing that 0:18:17.590 --> 0:18:19.720 because I've got a screen up in front of my face, 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.720 so I then have to sacrifice being able to orient 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:25.150 to what I can orient through on the screen by 0:18:25.150 --> 0:18:29.470 pushing that away. And just being there to be seen 0:18:29.470 --> 0:18:30.100 by others. 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:34.030 There's been some really interesting thinking around body positivity and 0:18:34.030 --> 0:18:38.630 celebrating all body shapes and more recently took of body neutrality. 0:18:38.650 --> 0:18:41.050 So rather than aiming to love your body, which can 0:18:41.050 --> 0:18:43.540 be really tough for many of us, the less challenging 0:18:43.540 --> 0:18:47.169 aspiration to become less emotionally influenced by how your body 0:18:47.170 --> 0:18:49.990 look if you're struggling with body image, what are some 0:18:49.990 --> 0:18:52.330 things that you can do to develop and maintain a 0:18:52.330 --> 0:18:53.480 healthy body image? 0:18:53.530 --> 0:18:57.970 Start listening to your body. Do what's loving in response 0:18:57.970 --> 0:19:00.760 to what you hear. We've got to meet our physical 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:05.169 needs through sleep and through movement that we enjoy and 0:19:05.330 --> 0:19:09.460 through responding to our genuine hunger and what we need 0:19:09.460 --> 0:19:13.030 to do, especially if we've been experiencing the challenges of 0:19:13.030 --> 0:19:16.300 an eating disorder is we've got to stop imposing what 0:19:16.300 --> 0:19:19.780 we think things should be and listen to what actually 0:19:19.780 --> 0:19:23.230 is what our body is really telling us. And mindfulness 0:19:23.230 --> 0:19:26.740 as a lot of really useful strategies for this, or 0:19:26.740 --> 0:19:28.449 if you want to keep it super simple, you can 0:19:28.450 --> 0:19:32.199 just pause and breathe and involve your breathing. Be aware 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:34.899 of what's going on. The second thing is to nurture 0:19:34.900 --> 0:19:39.050 yourself emotionally. It's as you've just said poly, or it 0:19:39.070 --> 0:19:42.940 only natural to feel conflicted about your body. Yeah, we 0:19:42.940 --> 0:19:45.100 want to love our body. We want to appreciate it 0:19:45.100 --> 0:19:48.190 and feel grateful for it. But sometimes we also feel 0:19:48.460 --> 0:19:51.730 compelled to change it to match the expectations of what 0:19:51.730 --> 0:19:54.400 we think the outside world requires of us. So we've 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:56.320 got to figure out some ways to get on good 0:19:56.410 --> 0:20:00.100 hands with the difference between what we actually are and 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:05.109 what the external ideal is without punishing ourselves or hiding away. 0:20:05.170 --> 0:20:07.060 And some of the things that we can do, there 0:20:07.090 --> 0:20:10.330 are things like self-compassion, or we can simply show mercy 0:20:10.330 --> 0:20:13.480 to ourself. That's another way of thinking about it, because 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:15.670 a lot of the things that we say about ourselves, 0:20:15.670 --> 0:20:19.060 like what is articulated to us, we would never dream 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:22.330 to say to another person because they're so incredibly cruel 0:20:22.490 --> 0:20:22.810 that 0:20:23.590 --> 0:20:25.800 some of the sorry to jump in quarterly. But somehow 0:20:25.810 --> 0:20:28.250 some of the words tests that you were using were 0:20:28.330 --> 0:20:31.840 really strong and I don't think be another person in 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:33.500 the world that you'd say that to. And yet you 0:20:33.500 --> 0:20:34.510 were saying about yourself. 0:20:34.660 --> 0:20:36.610 And I think one of the things that Test was 0:20:36.609 --> 0:20:39.010 able to say on the flip side and and show 0:20:39.010 --> 0:20:42.310 us that, you know, when she became a healthier person 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.699 is how grateful she is for how beautiful her body 0:20:45.700 --> 0:20:48.820 is and to learn to really appreciate it's a gratitude 0:20:48.970 --> 0:20:52.090 is another thing that's very important. I would say that 0:20:52.420 --> 0:20:56.320 in this emotional nurturing space, you're also looking for social 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.199 connections and test, as also mentioned, where she's able to 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:05.950 connect with others via telehealth via video conference. Because that 0:21:05.950 --> 0:21:08.800 gives us validation of our feelings and we're able to 0:21:09.130 --> 0:21:12.490 regulate so we're able to feel together in connection with 0:21:12.490 --> 0:21:15.160 another person. And then the third thing that we need 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:18.010 to do is embrace the fact that everyone is different. 0:21:18.220 --> 0:21:22.330 That's the reality, everyone. Everybody is different and that's a 0:21:22.330 --> 0:21:22.810 good thing. 0:21:22.900 --> 0:21:25.689 Thank you both so much. Test for sharing your own 0:21:25.690 --> 0:21:29.080 experience and Kourtney for coming with such compassion and really 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:31.810 practical steps about what you can do to to develop 0:21:31.810 --> 0:21:34.180 and maintain that healthy body image. Thank you so much. 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:35.350 Thanks for having me, guys. 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:41.480 You're listening to nothing's off limits. We're Tess and Polly, 0:21:41.690 --> 0:21:45.020 did you know, Vision Australia partners with the Melbourne Fashion 0:21:45.020 --> 0:21:49.190 Festival to make its runways accessible through audio description. But 0:21:49.190 --> 0:21:52.220 more information go to Vision Australia dot org or call 0:21:52.220 --> 0:21:57.890 one eight four seven four double six. Vision Australia Blindness 0:21:58.040 --> 0:21:59.689 Low Vision Opportunity. 0:21:59.900 --> 0:22:03.320 Our next guest is Samantha Hardy. Samantha is one of 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:03.379 the 0:22:03.380 --> 0:22:07.340 voices you might hear if you called Vision Australia as 0:22:07.340 --> 0:22:10.460 a Service Connect officer. Samantha plays a vital role connecting 0:22:10.460 --> 0:22:14.540 people with support services. Samantha herself has low vision and 0:22:14.540 --> 0:22:18.590 is a sometime cane user. How important is appearance to you, Samantha? 0:22:18.650 --> 0:22:20.990 I'd have to say it is quite important to me. 0:22:20.990 --> 0:22:25.010 I'm quite passionate about fashion than clothing in general. I 0:22:25.010 --> 0:22:29.870 still find people tend to expect people that are blind 0:22:29.869 --> 0:22:32.780 or visually impaired to look sort of badly dressed and 0:22:32.780 --> 0:22:35.420 maybe a bit sort of downtrodden and not quite sort 0:22:35.420 --> 0:22:38.690 of fishing in to the world or with other people. 0:22:38.700 --> 0:22:41.810 And I really like to buck that trend. I really 0:22:41.810 --> 0:22:44.960 like to express myself in a way that shows that 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:49.400 I'm confident and getting on with my life. Clothing can 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:51.950 be a really powerful tool so that it's almost like 0:22:51.950 --> 0:22:55.459 a shorthand for telling people in the world who you are. 0:22:55.580 --> 0:22:59.390 People do tend to sort of make very quick judgments 0:22:59.390 --> 0:23:01.820 about who you are by your appearance. You know, 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:05.629 some people and I certainly usually one of them might say, Oh, 0:23:05.990 --> 0:23:08.270 I'm just not interested in fashion. I mean, it's just fashion, 0:23:08.270 --> 0:23:11.090 you know, comfort over fashion and all that. The appearance 0:23:11.090 --> 0:23:12.950 really goes deeper than fashion, doesn't it? 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:15.560 It sort of speaks to who you are in the 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:18.709 world and how you want to express yourself. And I 0:23:18.710 --> 0:23:22.370 certainly get that for some people, particularly since they have 0:23:22.550 --> 0:23:25.220 low vision, the clothing might not be important to them. 0:23:25.220 --> 0:23:27.170 And I'm certainly not saying that it should be. I'm 0:23:27.170 --> 0:23:30.169 just sort of expressing my own feelings about it. When 0:23:30.170 --> 0:23:33.500 I first started using a cane, I went for quite 0:23:33.500 --> 0:23:36.470 a while, was listening to this one because it just 0:23:36.470 --> 0:23:39.470 felt really confronting. And eventually I accepted that it was 0:23:39.470 --> 0:23:41.360 going to be really useful to help me to get 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:44.419 around independently and do the things I wanted to do. 0:23:44.510 --> 0:23:46.490 So I learned how to use a cane, and I 0:23:46.490 --> 0:23:49.010 started using one. And when I first started using it, 0:23:49.010 --> 0:23:53.210 the experience was incredibly intense. It was like people's reactions 0:23:53.210 --> 0:23:56.120 were really quite extreme. And on the one hand, I 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:59.119 was super visible in the community, but also at the 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:02.450 same time, I became completely invisible. It's like people only 0:24:02.450 --> 0:24:05.420 saw a blind person with a cane, and they no 0:24:05.420 --> 0:24:08.240 longer saw me at all. And I got on a 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:11.480 train with my time and still sort of dealing with 0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:14.000 people's reactions. And then I was sitting in the train 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:16.580 and this man got on like a stop after me. 0:24:16.670 --> 0:24:23.480 Absolutely fabulous looking like well-dressed, confident looking man in a 0:24:23.480 --> 0:24:26.930 suit and a briefcase. He happened to be using the cane. 0:24:27.260 --> 0:24:30.679 I remember thinking, Yes, no one is going to be 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:33.290 looking at that man thinking, Oh, that's so sad that 0:24:33.290 --> 0:24:37.190 man's blind, and they're just going to be thinking, Oh, 0:24:37.490 --> 0:24:42.050 this very confident, attractive man who obviously has a vision 0:24:42.050 --> 0:24:44.960 impairment is using the cane. And I remember thinking, that's 0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:47.840 how I want to be in the world. So do 0:24:47.840 --> 0:24:48.530 you feel like 0:24:48.530 --> 0:24:51.740 when you before you are using your cane people, approached 0:24:51.740 --> 0:24:53.780 you in a very different way to to when it 0:24:53.780 --> 0:24:56.000 sounds like there was a real change in the way 0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:58.490 people perceived you just because you were holding the cane? 0:24:58.580 --> 0:25:01.610 There is, and there is still and there was, and 0:25:01.609 --> 0:25:04.280 I've spoken to lots of other people who experienced something 0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:06.859 quite similar to that. It can be can be really 0:25:06.859 --> 0:25:10.390 extreme people's reactions. And I'm not completely blind, whatever that, 0:25:10.420 --> 0:25:12.650 whatever that might be. But I have some. I have 0:25:12.650 --> 0:25:16.040 some vision, so I use the cane because I can't 0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:20.220 tell distances or depth or I don't see any details. 0:25:20.220 --> 0:25:22.610 So it helps me, helps to keep me safe. But 0:25:22.609 --> 0:25:26.210 I actually have still part of the time. See people's 0:25:26.210 --> 0:25:29.930 reactions to Cane. I can see them hesitating. I can 0:25:29.930 --> 0:25:32.090 see them doing weird things with it, and I can 0:25:32.090 --> 0:25:34.520 see them staring at me. I get Botox. I'm using 0:25:34.520 --> 0:25:37.010 the cane. But then I also I'm aware of people's 0:25:37.010 --> 0:25:38.000 reactions to it. 0:25:38.210 --> 0:25:41.030 So how do we go about finding out what the 0:25:41.030 --> 0:25:43.820 visual norms are, whether or not we we follow or 0:25:43.820 --> 0:25:44.490 defy them? 0:25:44.540 --> 0:25:47.070 I guess I'm only aware of some visual norms and 0:25:47.070 --> 0:25:49.859 sorts of things. I'm aware that I'm probably missing like 0:25:49.910 --> 0:25:52.970 eye contact and things like that. But what I've done 0:25:52.970 --> 0:25:56.930 is enlisted the help of some of my trusted family 0:25:56.930 --> 0:25:59.390 and friends just to kind of give me a bit 0:25:59.390 --> 0:26:02.060 of guidance when I need it so that I can 0:26:02.060 --> 0:26:05.420 sort of I guess for me, it's a simplified version. 0:26:05.420 --> 0:26:07.730 I don't take too many crazy risks because I don't 0:26:07.730 --> 0:26:10.399 really can't really see what I'm wearing that well, but 0:26:10.700 --> 0:26:15.379 just to help me to feel like I'm dressing well 0:26:15.380 --> 0:26:16.190 in the world. 0:26:16.280 --> 0:26:19.850 Are there ways in which we can use our appearance 0:26:19.850 --> 0:26:23.690 and demeanor to give the impression of being confident, more 0:26:23.690 --> 0:26:24.980 confident that we perhaps are? 0:26:25.010 --> 0:26:27.710 I think I learnt from another friend of mine who's 0:26:28.040 --> 0:26:31.310 he's a cane user. I was finding that I was 0:26:31.310 --> 0:26:33.320 having a lot of trouble using my came, as I've 0:26:33.320 --> 0:26:37.950 already mentioned, and when I went out with and. Using mine, 0:26:37.950 --> 0:26:42.609 and she is just so incredibly confident, almost aggressive, it's OK, 0:26:42.630 --> 0:26:45.480 she's very lovely and so you could never describe her 0:26:45.480 --> 0:26:47.790 as aggressive but just super confident, and I find that 0:26:47.790 --> 0:26:50.910 people react really differently to cover up. There's a woman 0:26:50.910 --> 0:26:53.310 on a mission, really doesn't need any help. I'll just 0:26:53.310 --> 0:26:55.710 get out of her way. And I found I find 0:26:55.710 --> 0:26:58.230 that that really works for her. And I actually there's 0:26:58.230 --> 0:27:00.900 a lot by being out with her and observing what 0:27:00.900 --> 0:27:03.900 she does and how she moves in the world. Samantha, 0:27:03.900 --> 0:27:04.320 it's been 0:27:04.320 --> 0:27:07.830 such a pleasure chatting with you today. Thanks for joining us. Remember, 0:27:07.830 --> 0:27:11.100 you can download Nothing's Off Limits via the Vision Australia 0:27:11.100 --> 0:27:15.330 website at Vision Australia dot org. That's Vision Australia dot org. 0:27:15.359 --> 0:27:18.300 Just search for nothing's off limits into the search engine, 0:27:18.390 --> 0:27:20.219 and you'll be directed to a web page where you 0:27:20.220 --> 0:27:23.520 can view this episode and earlier episodes, and please make 0:27:23.520 --> 0:27:25.950 sure you subscribe so you don't miss any. Also, you 0:27:25.950 --> 0:27:28.770 can tune in via Virgin Australia Radio. We've gathered up 0:27:28.770 --> 0:27:32.490 all the contact details of the organisations mentioned in this 0:27:32.490 --> 0:27:35.340 episode and put them on the Vision Australia website. You 0:27:35.340 --> 0:27:38.880 can also find there a great webinar with Chloe Norton 0:27:38.880 --> 0:27:42.150 from the Melbourne Fashion Festival about how we can find 0:27:42.150 --> 0:27:43.410 and dress to our style. 0:27:49.130 --> 0:27:52.969 That was nothing's off limits. Made with the support of 0:27:52.970 --> 0:27:57.890 Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages and capacity building grant, 0:27:58.100 --> 0:28:02.150 learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting V.J. Radio, 0:28:02.150 --> 0:28:04.820 dot org and access all there is to know about 0:28:04.820 --> 0:28:08.900 our range of client services via our website. Vision Australia 0:28:09.140 --> 0:28:13.070 dot org. We thank everyone who participated in this episode, 0:28:13.190 --> 0:28:16.820 but especially you for listening today. 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