S1: Hello everyone. Welcome to Talking Tech. This edition available from
S1: July the 18th, 2023. I'm Stephen Jolly. Great to have
S1: you with us wherever you're listening, perhaps through Vision Australia Radio,
S1: associated Stations of Australia or maybe the Community Radio Network,
S1: there is also the podcast. If you haven't caught up
S1: with that yet, all you need to do is search
S1: for the two words. Talking tech and DNA can all
S1: come usually on a Tuesday afternoon just after it's been produced.
S1: Another option is to ask your Siri device or smart
S1: speaker to play Vision Australia Radio Talking Tech Podcast. Vision
S1: Australia Radio Talking Tech podcast. With me someone who can
S1: explain all this tech stuff really well. Vision Australia's National
S1: Advisor on Access Technology, David Woodbridge. David, as you suggested,
S1: it's probably about time we had a good yarn about
S1: AI or artificial intelligence. So my first question to you
S1: is standing at a barbecue and AI comes up in
S1: conversation and someone says to you, What's AI all about?
S2: David So the simple answer about AI is it's to
S2: teach or instruct or code. Computers in general use it
S2: in quotation marks, computers in general, to think and learn.
S2: So they access data, they interpret the data, and then
S2: they output some result out of that. So they look
S2: at lots and lots and lots of data bases and
S2: then whatever you ask for, they're sort of like try
S2: and link that statistically together and then give you an
S2: appropriate answer. But its basic premise is think and learn.
S1: And the learn is what's a bit of a worry
S1: for people? And just briefly, because they could take us
S1: into territory people fear that we haven't anticipated.
S2: That's right. It also depends on the data that the
S2: thing's accessing. So if the data is incorrect, then the
S2: output is going to be incorrect or slightly off the
S2: planet a bit. So that's the other thing, because, you
S2: know the old expression, Steve, from back in the old days,
S2: garbage in, garbage out. In some ways you can get
S2: the same thing with AI.
S1: So what's the potential for people who are blind or
S1: have low vision with AI?
S2: This has got tremendous benefit because if you think about
S2: the thing that you can actually ask this thing. So
S2: it's beyond what Siri and AI lady and those sort
S2: of things do, which is fairly simple tasks. But for example,
S2: I can say to I can you give me the
S2: main monuments that I'll be able to find in, I
S2: don't know, Paris or Rome or anything else, then I
S2: can say, well, look, you know, can you tell me
S2: more about X, Y and Z monument? And then we
S2: can keep going down the rabbit hole. You can get
S2: as broad as you like. You can get specific like.
S2: And what I like about it is that you'll see
S2: more systems now that actually give you the links of
S2: where it got the information from and pulled it all
S2: together for you. It's also really good in being able to,
S2: if you like, properly construct things like emails or letters
S2: and that sort of stuff. And I've been using that
S2: for a while now when I've been sending app developers
S2: and web developers some feedback upon perhaps how non accessible
S2: their websites are. I don't copy and paste what the
S2: AI has come back with, but what I have done is,
S2: you know, the ten points that it's come up with
S2: and I might have only thought about four of them
S2: is just absolutely amazing. So it's also reminding me that,
S2: you know, as a human, I don't know everything and
S2: the AI wireless know well, it knows things, doesn't know
S2: everything that may or may not be relevant to this
S2: particular email I'm sending. And it's almost between AI and
S2: humans and for us blind people. So if you can
S2: get lost in websites because there are so many things
S2: that are quite inaccessible that this thing really defines and
S2: narrows it down for you a lot.
S1: You've been doing a fair bit of reading on this lately.
S1: A number of well known people have had a bit
S1: to say about it. Bill Gates writes that there's no
S1: need to be afraid of AI.
S2: Basically, what he said really in a nutshell was that, look,
S2: when calculators came in, everybody thought it was going to
S2: be the end of maths, that we wouldn't have had a,
S2: you know, add, subtract, divide and times anymore. Then when
S2: computers came into the classroom, it's like, well, that's going
S2: to be the end. People won't remember how to handwrite
S2: or do other things because the computer does it everything
S2: for you. And now if artificial intelligence people are saying, oh, no,
S2: that's that's going to be the end of people who
S2: are able to to be able to research. But one
S2: thing that II doesn't do is that it's not intuitive,
S2: it's not empathic, and it's not particularly understanding what it
S2: really is good on in quotes, is finding facts that
S2: it has access to. And then you can do your
S2: own thing with it. But at the moment, there are
S2: places around the world that are looking at guidelines. Lines
S2: to say to AI will Perhaps AI systems should only
S2: go a certain way and if they start going down
S2: the wrong little rabbit hole, then there should be guidelines
S2: to say, well, stop, you're not allowed to do that,
S2: or you're not allowed to process that data or whatever
S2: else it might be. So I think people in Australia
S2: we are particularly wary of AI, apparently according to some statistics,
S2: and I think it's just wait and see what happens
S2: because humans are not stupid. We're going to be able
S2: to work out how to control things and I just
S2: think we just need to be positive about being able
S2: to develop something that was like a control over.
S1: It's interesting that Bill Gates is having a view on
S1: this because, of course, his experience goes back a long way,
S1: back to the early days of Microsoft.
S2: Yep. And keep in mind that the original term artificial
S2: Intelligence was actually coined in 1956. So it's not a
S2: new term that suddenly sprouted up. It's actually been around
S2: for you know, over 50 years now. So it's not
S2: a brand new term. It's just that it's getting more
S2: and more in our face about how important it is
S2: and how important it is to make sure we don't
S2: lose control over the thing.
S1: What's the head of Amazon got to say about this?
S2: By the article I was looking at, they didn't actually
S2: mention a lady at all. You know, they said, this
S2: is not your personal assistant. This is all the background
S2: data stats crunching in the background that they're going to
S2: make code available for third party developers to pull in
S2: relevant information to then help their corporate base systems be
S2: more AI driven in the future. So he was saying,
S2: you know, the bars of the world and the bings
S2: of the world and the japes of the world. Yes,
S2: you know, they're in your face and everything else, but like,
S2: you know, meta, so i.e. Facebook and then like Amazon,
S2: they're also working on artificial intelligence as well. It's not
S2: so much in your face, but they're certainly working on it.
S2: So I think his point was to say, Please don't
S2: forget us because we're also working on an extremely hard.
S1: You mentioned ChatGPT, the OpenAI people responsible for ChatGPT. They're
S1: very mindful of the possibility of AI getting out of
S1: control and doing something about it.
S2: That's right, because the term that now people are talking
S2: about is this thing called super AI. And I remember
S2: reading a science fiction book couple of years ago that
S2: mentioned the word AI in it, and it was basically
S2: getting to the stage where the AI basically decided that
S2: the human race was too dangerous. So I decided to
S2: start culling it. So it's not that bad at the moment,
S2: but I think what open AI people are saying is
S2: we're going to make sure that we have guidelines that
S2: will restrict ideas in certain things. And if you wanted
S2: a doomsday scenario, Steve, I guess the one of them
S2: is that there is no way artificial intelligence is going
S2: to have access to to weapons of mass destruction. That
S2: would just be stupid if it suddenly decided that, you know,
S2: that the world or particular country needed got rid of,
S2: then it could take control of the weapons. And that's
S2: a really extreme example. But that's the sort of stuff
S2: that you would never give an AI system access to.
S1: AI and the potential disruption to the education system as
S1: we know it. Ways of learning.
S2: Again, I agree with this article because basically at the
S2: moment our education system is very focused on exams and
S2: memorizing particular facts or just, you know, repeating what you've
S2: been told and writing down an exam. So there's no
S2: intuitive or creative thinking going on. And one of the
S2: things that have been finding what AI does and things
S2: like ChatGPT is it makes the person more critical in
S2: their thinking so they can do reasonable amounts or a
S2: lot amount of research based on GPT, also with other
S2: fact checking as well and come out with some amazing results.
S2: So it's like AI is going to make research a
S2: lot easier. It does not mean people are going to
S2: end up being stupid and say, Well, this thing just
S2: wrote my exam for you. It's the opposite way around
S2: because you've got access to research and pulling in all
S2: types of different data. You then as an intelligent human being,
S2: can then make up your own mind.
S1: An MIT Massachusetts Institute of Technology study talks about ChatGPT
S1: increasing productivity.
S2: Yeah. Now look, I know they're talking about ChatGPT, but
S2: let's just, you know, pull it back and make it
S2: a bit more general. Let's just say AI in general.
S2: And what they found was that and they did, you know,
S2: your test, your test group. So one test group had
S2: the AI, the other test group didn't, and they had
S2: to write a range of different articles like memos and
S2: advertisements and sensitive emails and that sort of stuff. And
S2: what they found was the people that use the AI
S2: system spent less time actually compiling the email or the
S2: advertisement than people that. Weren't using AI. So again, it's
S2: one of those things where, yes, you know, I could
S2: sit down here and I could, you know, ponder for
S2: 30 minutes on how to write a delicate email to,
S2: you know, for me, for a developer to basically say,
S2: you need to pull your socks up or I can
S2: back into AI and say, Can you write me a
S2: nice email? Which points out how incredibly important is accessibility
S2: and your app is not meeting those requirements. And when
S2: it spits back the result, I can then massage that text.
S2: I can change the wording around, but at least I've
S2: got the body. Because you know, sometimes when you're actually writing,
S2: you just want that beginning sentence or that beginning idea
S2: that then sparks the rest of your writing for you.
S1: That's true. Let's turn to news reading now. And certainly
S1: it's started in Asia where AI is being used to
S1: generate news bulletins.
S2: This is a weird one. So. So the way this
S2: works is and the guy, for example, of this lady
S2: in India who, you know, she may not be able
S2: to be in the newsroom. So what she does is
S2: that she reads the news articles, you know, into a
S2: recorder that's sent back to the studio and then that studio,
S2: then using her voice puts that voice with this AI,
S2: artificial intelligence generated avatar on the screen that looks like her.
S2: And then what they also do is they use her
S2: voice to then read in different languages. So in India,
S2: it was English and the other major languages spoken in India.
S2: And then that person that's reading that in her, you know,
S2: the different language using her voice is also a different avatar.
S2: So you've got her avatar and another avatar reading the
S2: news in a different language. And it's all done by
S2: artificial intelligence. And just one more point on this. What
S2: somebody was saying, I think it was at Queensland University. Well,
S2: it's all well and good to have these translation things
S2: in a different languages, but there are nuances in different
S2: languages and different words are important than others and you
S2: would still need some sort of linguistic on board to
S2: make sure that the translation to a different language wasn't
S2: lost in going to from English to another language.
S1: Is the Robodebt debacle in Australia an example of where
S1: I could get out of control?
S2: It effectively is. And the simple reason was there was
S2: no human being overseeing it properly. By the way, this
S2: thing had a 27% failure rate, so that's how much
S2: it got wrong and it was literally matching data sets
S2: and what it thought where people like debt was actually incorrect.
S2: And this comes back to the thing I said earlier on.
S2: These things have no empathy, no compassion, no intuitive, no insight,
S2: no nothing at the moment. So who knows? Maybe I
S2: will have that eventually. Every time we do things with these,
S2: there needs to be guidelines, which we've already talked about,
S2: and there always needs to be humans involved, particularly at
S2: such intimate things as you owe the government money.
S1: Thinking of our situation as people who are blind or
S1: have low vision, you're optimistic about the future role of AI.
S2: I am. If we can use AI to say what's
S2: around me, what's the most important thing near me? Can
S2: you describe my surroundings? Or, you know, you might pick
S2: up a photo and say, Can you describe my child
S2: in this photo that my wife took when when they
S2: were two years old? Being able to interpret different types
S2: of data to make it easier to access information. We're
S2: on the cusp of a great movement forward. So I'm
S2: really looking forward to the next ten years or so.
S1: And now coming back to the present, just before we go,
S1: a reminder of where people can find details of what
S1: you've been talking about in this and previous editions of
S1: the program.
S2: As always, you can check out our website, which is
S2: David Woodmere dot Podbean pad com David.
S1: Would be dot podbean pod b e a n to
S1: write to the program.
S2: You can write to me at Vision Australia where I work,
S2: which is David Dot Woodbridge. How it sounds at Vision Australia. Org.
S1: David Dot Woodbridge at Vision australia.org. This has been talking
S1: tech with me has been Vision Australia's National Advisor on
S1: Access Technology, David Woodbridge. I'm Stephen Jolley. Take care. We'll
S1: talk more tech next week. See you.