WEBVTT - Talking Tech 18th July 2023 0:00:08.218 --> 0:00:11.848 Hello everyone. Welcome to Talking Tech. This edition available from 0:00:11.848 --> 0:00:15.988 July the 18th, 2023. I'm Stephen Jolly. Great to have 0:00:15.988 --> 0:00:19.318 you with us wherever you're listening, perhaps through Vision Australia Radio, 0:00:19.318 --> 0:00:24.178 associated Stations of Australia or maybe the Community Radio Network, 0:00:24.448 --> 0:00:26.938 there is also the podcast. If you haven't caught up 0:00:26.938 --> 0:00:29.008 with that yet, all you need to do is search 0:00:29.008 --> 0:00:32.188 for the two words. Talking tech and DNA can all 0:00:32.188 --> 0:00:35.758 come usually on a Tuesday afternoon just after it's been produced. 0:00:36.118 --> 0:00:38.968 Another option is to ask your Siri device or smart 0:00:38.968 --> 0:00:43.648 speaker to play Vision Australia Radio Talking Tech Podcast. Vision 0:00:43.648 --> 0:00:47.818 Australia Radio Talking Tech podcast. With me someone who can 0:00:47.818 --> 0:00:51.508 explain all this tech stuff really well. Vision Australia's National 0:00:51.508 --> 0:00:56.908 Advisor on Access Technology, David Woodbridge. David, as you suggested, 0:00:56.908 --> 0:01:00.088 it's probably about time we had a good yarn about 0:01:00.088 --> 0:01:05.098 AI or artificial intelligence. So my first question to you 0:01:05.098 --> 0:01:09.148 is standing at a barbecue and AI comes up in 0:01:09.148 --> 0:01:12.508 conversation and someone says to you, What's AI all about? 0:01:12.508 --> 0:01:18.118 David So the simple answer about AI is it's to 0:01:18.238 --> 0:01:22.368 teach or instruct or code. Computers in general use it 0:01:22.378 --> 0:01:26.578 in quotation marks, computers in general, to think and learn. 0:01:26.578 --> 0:01:30.568 So they access data, they interpret the data, and then 0:01:30.568 --> 0:01:33.208 they output some result out of that. So they look 0:01:33.208 --> 0:01:37.108 at lots and lots and lots of data bases and 0:01:37.108 --> 0:01:38.818 then whatever you ask for, they're sort of like try 0:01:38.818 --> 0:01:42.058 and link that statistically together and then give you an 0:01:42.058 --> 0:01:46.558 appropriate answer. But its basic premise is think and learn. 0:01:46.768 --> 0:01:49.138 And the learn is what's a bit of a worry 0:01:49.138 --> 0:01:52.078 for people? And just briefly, because they could take us 0:01:52.078 --> 0:01:56.278 into territory people fear that we haven't anticipated. 0:01:56.578 --> 0:01:58.618 That's right. It also depends on the data that the 0:01:58.618 --> 0:02:01.468 thing's accessing. So if the data is incorrect, then the 0:02:01.468 --> 0:02:03.688 output is going to be incorrect or slightly off the 0:02:03.688 --> 0:02:07.288 planet a bit. So that's the other thing, because, you 0:02:07.288 --> 0:02:09.508 know the old expression, Steve, from back in the old days, 0:02:09.508 --> 0:02:12.658 garbage in, garbage out. In some ways you can get 0:02:12.658 --> 0:02:14.098 the same thing with AI. 0:02:14.518 --> 0:02:17.608 So what's the potential for people who are blind or 0:02:17.608 --> 0:02:19.018 have low vision with AI? 0:02:19.498 --> 0:02:23.038 This has got tremendous benefit because if you think about 0:02:23.038 --> 0:02:25.678 the thing that you can actually ask this thing. So 0:02:25.678 --> 0:02:29.428 it's beyond what Siri and AI lady and those sort 0:02:29.428 --> 0:02:33.748 of things do, which is fairly simple tasks. But for example, 0:02:33.748 --> 0:02:35.968 I can say to I can you give me the 0:02:35.968 --> 0:02:39.538 main monuments that I'll be able to find in, I 0:02:39.538 --> 0:02:42.598 don't know, Paris or Rome or anything else, then I 0:02:42.598 --> 0:02:44.308 can say, well, look, you know, can you tell me 0:02:44.308 --> 0:02:46.978 more about X, Y and Z monument? And then we 0:02:46.978 --> 0:02:49.918 can keep going down the rabbit hole. You can get 0:02:49.918 --> 0:02:52.298 as broad as you like. You can get specific like. 0:02:52.378 --> 0:02:55.618 And what I like about it is that you'll see 0:02:55.618 --> 0:02:58.798 more systems now that actually give you the links of 0:02:58.798 --> 0:03:02.218 where it got the information from and pulled it all 0:03:02.218 --> 0:03:07.348 together for you. It's also really good in being able to, 0:03:07.348 --> 0:03:13.048 if you like, properly construct things like emails or letters 0:03:13.048 --> 0:03:15.058 and that sort of stuff. And I've been using that 0:03:15.058 --> 0:03:18.448 for a while now when I've been sending app developers 0:03:18.448 --> 0:03:23.218 and web developers some feedback upon perhaps how non accessible 0:03:23.218 --> 0:03:27.658 their websites are. I don't copy and paste what the 0:03:27.658 --> 0:03:30.568 AI has come back with, but what I have done is, 0:03:30.658 --> 0:03:33.928 you know, the ten points that it's come up with 0:03:33.928 --> 0:03:36.298 and I might have only thought about four of them 0:03:36.958 --> 0:03:41.038 is just absolutely amazing. So it's also reminding me that, 0:03:41.038 --> 0:03:44.368 you know, as a human, I don't know everything and 0:03:44.368 --> 0:03:48.928 the AI wireless know well, it knows things, doesn't know 0:03:48.928 --> 0:03:52.018 everything that may or may not be relevant to this 0:03:52.018 --> 0:03:56.308 particular email I'm sending. And it's almost between AI and 0:03:56.308 --> 0:03:59.698 humans and for us blind people. So if you can 0:03:59.698 --> 0:04:02.548 get lost in websites because there are so many things 0:04:02.548 --> 0:04:06.238 that are quite inaccessible that this thing really defines and 0:04:06.238 --> 0:04:07.468 narrows it down for you a lot. 0:04:07.828 --> 0:04:10.138 You've been doing a fair bit of reading on this lately. 0:04:10.648 --> 0:04:13.648 A number of well known people have had a bit 0:04:13.648 --> 0:04:17.008 to say about it. Bill Gates writes that there's no 0:04:17.008 --> 0:04:18.478 need to be afraid of AI. 0:04:18.928 --> 0:04:21.058 Basically, what he said really in a nutshell was that, look, 0:04:21.058 --> 0:04:23.398 when calculators came in, everybody thought it was going to 0:04:23.398 --> 0:04:26.038 be the end of maths, that we wouldn't have had a, 0:04:26.188 --> 0:04:30.178 you know, add, subtract, divide and times anymore. Then when 0:04:30.178 --> 0:04:32.788 computers came into the classroom, it's like, well, that's going 0:04:32.788 --> 0:04:35.218 to be the end. People won't remember how to handwrite 0:04:35.218 --> 0:04:38.098 or do other things because the computer does it everything 0:04:38.098 --> 0:04:41.728 for you. And now if artificial intelligence people are saying, oh, no, 0:04:41.728 --> 0:04:43.348 that's that's going to be the end of people who 0:04:43.348 --> 0:04:46.378 are able to to be able to research. But one 0:04:46.378 --> 0:04:50.188 thing that II doesn't do is that it's not intuitive, 0:04:50.188 --> 0:04:54.148 it's not empathic, and it's not particularly understanding what it 0:04:54.148 --> 0:04:57.688 really is good on in quotes, is finding facts that 0:04:57.688 --> 0:05:00.718 it has access to. And then you can do your 0:05:00.718 --> 0:05:02.878 own thing with it. But at the moment, there are 0:05:02.878 --> 0:05:07.328 places around the world that are looking at guidelines. Lines 0:05:07.328 --> 0:05:11.918 to say to AI will Perhaps AI systems should only 0:05:11.918 --> 0:05:15.458 go a certain way and if they start going down 0:05:15.458 --> 0:05:18.428 the wrong little rabbit hole, then there should be guidelines 0:05:18.428 --> 0:05:21.218 to say, well, stop, you're not allowed to do that, 0:05:21.218 --> 0:05:23.378 or you're not allowed to process that data or whatever 0:05:23.378 --> 0:05:26.498 else it might be. So I think people in Australia 0:05:26.498 --> 0:05:30.938 we are particularly wary of AI, apparently according to some statistics, 0:05:30.938 --> 0:05:33.968 and I think it's just wait and see what happens 0:05:33.968 --> 0:05:36.878 because humans are not stupid. We're going to be able 0:05:36.878 --> 0:05:39.068 to work out how to control things and I just 0:05:39.068 --> 0:05:42.728 think we just need to be positive about being able 0:05:42.728 --> 0:05:45.608 to develop something that was like a control over. 0:05:45.878 --> 0:05:49.118 It's interesting that Bill Gates is having a view on 0:05:49.118 --> 0:05:52.628 this because, of course, his experience goes back a long way, 0:05:52.628 --> 0:05:54.278 back to the early days of Microsoft. 0:05:54.548 --> 0:05:57.188 Yep. And keep in mind that the original term artificial 0:05:57.188 --> 0:06:02.558 Intelligence was actually coined in 1956. So it's not a 0:06:02.558 --> 0:06:05.738 new term that suddenly sprouted up. It's actually been around 0:06:05.738 --> 0:06:08.978 for you know, over 50 years now. So it's not 0:06:08.978 --> 0:06:10.748 a brand new term. It's just that it's getting more 0:06:10.748 --> 0:06:14.168 and more in our face about how important it is 0:06:14.168 --> 0:06:16.568 and how important it is to make sure we don't 0:06:16.568 --> 0:06:17.828 lose control over the thing. 0:06:18.098 --> 0:06:20.468 What's the head of Amazon got to say about this? 0:06:21.068 --> 0:06:23.318 By the article I was looking at, they didn't actually 0:06:23.318 --> 0:06:27.188 mention a lady at all. You know, they said, this 0:06:27.188 --> 0:06:30.878 is not your personal assistant. This is all the background 0:06:30.878 --> 0:06:34.538 data stats crunching in the background that they're going to 0:06:34.538 --> 0:06:38.498 make code available for third party developers to pull in 0:06:38.498 --> 0:06:44.198 relevant information to then help their corporate base systems be 0:06:44.198 --> 0:06:47.468 more AI driven in the future. So he was saying, 0:06:47.468 --> 0:06:49.538 you know, the bars of the world and the bings 0:06:49.538 --> 0:06:53.528 of the world and the japes of the world. Yes, 0:06:53.528 --> 0:06:56.468 you know, they're in your face and everything else, but like, 0:06:57.308 --> 0:07:01.508 you know, meta, so i.e. Facebook and then like Amazon, 0:07:01.508 --> 0:07:04.508 they're also working on artificial intelligence as well. It's not 0:07:04.508 --> 0:07:06.968 so much in your face, but they're certainly working on it. 0:07:06.968 --> 0:07:09.428 So I think his point was to say, Please don't 0:07:09.428 --> 0:07:11.858 forget us because we're also working on an extremely hard. 0:07:12.518 --> 0:07:20.228 You mentioned ChatGPT, the OpenAI people responsible for ChatGPT. They're 0:07:20.228 --> 0:07:24.008 very mindful of the possibility of AI getting out of 0:07:24.008 --> 0:07:25.808 control and doing something about it. 0:07:26.118 --> 0:07:29.228 That's right, because the term that now people are talking 0:07:29.228 --> 0:07:32.948 about is this thing called super AI. And I remember 0:07:32.948 --> 0:07:35.318 reading a science fiction book couple of years ago that 0:07:35.318 --> 0:07:39.308 mentioned the word AI in it, and it was basically 0:07:39.308 --> 0:07:42.258 getting to the stage where the AI basically decided that 0:07:42.258 --> 0:07:44.198 the human race was too dangerous. So I decided to 0:07:44.198 --> 0:07:47.468 start culling it. So it's not that bad at the moment, 0:07:47.468 --> 0:07:50.888 but I think what open AI people are saying is 0:07:51.188 --> 0:07:53.768 we're going to make sure that we have guidelines that 0:07:53.768 --> 0:07:56.858 will restrict ideas in certain things. And if you wanted 0:07:56.858 --> 0:07:59.018 a doomsday scenario, Steve, I guess the one of them 0:07:59.018 --> 0:08:02.288 is that there is no way artificial intelligence is going 0:08:02.288 --> 0:08:04.898 to have access to to weapons of mass destruction. That 0:08:04.898 --> 0:08:08.138 would just be stupid if it suddenly decided that, you know, 0:08:08.228 --> 0:08:11.768 that the world or particular country needed got rid of, 0:08:12.008 --> 0:08:14.108 then it could take control of the weapons. And that's 0:08:14.108 --> 0:08:16.538 a really extreme example. But that's the sort of stuff 0:08:16.538 --> 0:08:19.478 that you would never give an AI system access to. 0:08:19.838 --> 0:08:24.098 AI and the potential disruption to the education system as 0:08:24.098 --> 0:08:25.568 we know it. Ways of learning. 0:08:25.718 --> 0:08:29.018 Again, I agree with this article because basically at the 0:08:29.018 --> 0:08:33.008 moment our education system is very focused on exams and 0:08:33.008 --> 0:08:38.618 memorizing particular facts or just, you know, repeating what you've 0:08:38.618 --> 0:08:41.618 been told and writing down an exam. So there's no 0:08:41.618 --> 0:08:45.698 intuitive or creative thinking going on. And one of the 0:08:45.698 --> 0:08:49.178 things that have been finding what AI does and things 0:08:49.178 --> 0:08:53.258 like ChatGPT is it makes the person more critical in 0:08:53.258 --> 0:08:57.008 their thinking so they can do reasonable amounts or a 0:08:57.008 --> 0:09:00.488 lot amount of research based on GPT, also with other 0:09:00.488 --> 0:09:04.358 fact checking as well and come out with some amazing results. 0:09:04.358 --> 0:09:07.838 So it's like AI is going to make research a 0:09:07.838 --> 0:09:10.568 lot easier. It does not mean people are going to 0:09:10.568 --> 0:09:12.458 end up being stupid and say, Well, this thing just 0:09:12.458 --> 0:09:15.338 wrote my exam for you. It's the opposite way around 0:09:15.338 --> 0:09:18.608 because you've got access to research and pulling in all 0:09:18.608 --> 0:09:23.048 types of different data. You then as an intelligent human being, 0:09:23.348 --> 0:09:24.788 can then make up your own mind. 0:09:25.658 --> 0:09:31.088 An MIT Massachusetts Institute of Technology study talks about ChatGPT 0:09:31.088 --> 0:09:32.648 increasing productivity. 0:09:33.008 --> 0:09:36.848 Yeah. Now look, I know they're talking about ChatGPT, but 0:09:37.028 --> 0:09:38.648 let's just, you know, pull it back and make it 0:09:38.648 --> 0:09:40.958 a bit more general. Let's just say AI in general. 0:09:41.258 --> 0:09:44.258 And what they found was that and they did, you know, 0:09:44.258 --> 0:09:47.138 your test, your test group. So one test group had 0:09:47.138 --> 0:09:49.478 the AI, the other test group didn't, and they had 0:09:49.478 --> 0:09:53.228 to write a range of different articles like memos and 0:09:53.228 --> 0:09:56.438 advertisements and sensitive emails and that sort of stuff. And 0:09:56.438 --> 0:09:59.438 what they found was the people that use the AI 0:09:59.468 --> 0:10:04.268 system spent less time actually compiling the email or the 0:10:04.268 --> 0:10:10.428 advertisement than people that. Weren't using AI. So again, it's 0:10:10.428 --> 0:10:13.068 one of those things where, yes, you know, I could 0:10:13.068 --> 0:10:15.378 sit down here and I could, you know, ponder for 0:10:15.468 --> 0:10:18.428 30 minutes on how to write a delicate email to, 0:10:18.438 --> 0:10:21.378 you know, for me, for a developer to basically say, 0:10:21.378 --> 0:10:23.898 you need to pull your socks up or I can 0:10:23.898 --> 0:10:27.408 back into AI and say, Can you write me a 0:10:27.408 --> 0:10:32.778 nice email? Which points out how incredibly important is accessibility 0:10:32.778 --> 0:10:36.138 and your app is not meeting those requirements. And when 0:10:36.138 --> 0:10:40.308 it spits back the result, I can then massage that text. 0:10:40.308 --> 0:10:42.858 I can change the wording around, but at least I've 0:10:42.858 --> 0:10:45.678 got the body. Because you know, sometimes when you're actually writing, 0:10:45.828 --> 0:10:49.398 you just want that beginning sentence or that beginning idea 0:10:49.398 --> 0:10:51.678 that then sparks the rest of your writing for you. 0:10:51.768 --> 0:10:56.028 That's true. Let's turn to news reading now. And certainly 0:10:56.268 --> 0:11:00.978 it's started in Asia where AI is being used to 0:11:00.978 --> 0:11:02.478 generate news bulletins. 0:11:02.688 --> 0:11:04.548 This is a weird one. So. So the way this 0:11:04.548 --> 0:11:06.438 works is and the guy, for example, of this lady 0:11:06.528 --> 0:11:09.348 in India who, you know, she may not be able 0:11:09.348 --> 0:11:11.928 to be in the newsroom. So what she does is 0:11:11.928 --> 0:11:16.668 that she reads the news articles, you know, into a 0:11:16.668 --> 0:11:20.748 recorder that's sent back to the studio and then that studio, 0:11:20.748 --> 0:11:25.638 then using her voice puts that voice with this AI, 0:11:25.638 --> 0:11:30.408 artificial intelligence generated avatar on the screen that looks like her. 0:11:30.708 --> 0:11:33.108 And then what they also do is they use her 0:11:33.108 --> 0:11:37.518 voice to then read in different languages. So in India, 0:11:37.518 --> 0:11:40.308 it was English and the other major languages spoken in India. 0:11:40.308 --> 0:11:44.028 And then that person that's reading that in her, you know, 0:11:44.148 --> 0:11:47.708 the different language using her voice is also a different avatar. 0:11:47.718 --> 0:11:52.218 So you've got her avatar and another avatar reading the 0:11:52.218 --> 0:11:54.348 news in a different language. And it's all done by 0:11:54.348 --> 0:11:57.228 artificial intelligence. And just one more point on this. What 0:11:57.228 --> 0:11:59.538 somebody was saying, I think it was at Queensland University. Well, 0:11:59.538 --> 0:12:01.698 it's all well and good to have these translation things 0:12:01.698 --> 0:12:05.148 in a different languages, but there are nuances in different 0:12:05.148 --> 0:12:09.738 languages and different words are important than others and you 0:12:09.738 --> 0:12:12.768 would still need some sort of linguistic on board to 0:12:12.768 --> 0:12:16.278 make sure that the translation to a different language wasn't 0:12:16.278 --> 0:12:19.458 lost in going to from English to another language. 0:12:19.938 --> 0:12:26.358 Is the Robodebt debacle in Australia an example of where 0:12:26.358 --> 0:12:28.278 I could get out of control? 0:12:28.488 --> 0:12:31.578 It effectively is. And the simple reason was there was 0:12:31.578 --> 0:12:35.358 no human being overseeing it properly. By the way, this 0:12:35.358 --> 0:12:38.208 thing had a 27% failure rate, so that's how much 0:12:38.208 --> 0:12:42.288 it got wrong and it was literally matching data sets 0:12:42.288 --> 0:12:46.338 and what it thought where people like debt was actually incorrect. 0:12:46.338 --> 0:12:48.498 And this comes back to the thing I said earlier on. 0:12:48.498 --> 0:12:52.158 These things have no empathy, no compassion, no intuitive, no insight, 0:12:52.158 --> 0:12:55.158 no nothing at the moment. So who knows? Maybe I 0:12:55.158 --> 0:12:58.188 will have that eventually. Every time we do things with these, 0:12:58.188 --> 0:13:00.918 there needs to be guidelines, which we've already talked about, 0:13:00.918 --> 0:13:05.208 and there always needs to be humans involved, particularly at 0:13:05.208 --> 0:13:08.598 such intimate things as you owe the government money. 0:13:08.958 --> 0:13:11.358 Thinking of our situation as people who are blind or 0:13:11.358 --> 0:13:15.558 have low vision, you're optimistic about the future role of AI. 0:13:16.158 --> 0:13:19.458 I am. If we can use AI to say what's 0:13:19.458 --> 0:13:22.758 around me, what's the most important thing near me? Can 0:13:22.758 --> 0:13:26.388 you describe my surroundings? Or, you know, you might pick 0:13:26.388 --> 0:13:30.378 up a photo and say, Can you describe my child 0:13:30.378 --> 0:13:32.988 in this photo that my wife took when when they 0:13:32.988 --> 0:13:36.108 were two years old? Being able to interpret different types 0:13:36.108 --> 0:13:39.258 of data to make it easier to access information. We're 0:13:39.258 --> 0:13:42.048 on the cusp of a great movement forward. So I'm 0:13:42.048 --> 0:13:44.028 really looking forward to the next ten years or so. 0:13:44.268 --> 0:13:46.938 And now coming back to the present, just before we go, 0:13:46.938 --> 0:13:49.848 a reminder of where people can find details of what 0:13:49.848 --> 0:13:52.398 you've been talking about in this and previous editions of 0:13:52.398 --> 0:13:53.058 the program. 0:13:53.118 --> 0:13:55.158 As always, you can check out our website, which is 0:13:55.158 --> 0:13:59.478 David Woodmere dot Podbean pad com David. 0:13:59.478 --> 0:14:04.248 Would be dot podbean pod b e a n to 0:14:04.248 --> 0:14:05.238 write to the program. 0:14:05.448 --> 0:14:07.548 You can write to me at Vision Australia where I work, 0:14:07.548 --> 0:14:11.838 which is David Dot Woodbridge. How it sounds at Vision Australia. Org. 0:14:12.048 --> 0:14:17.508 David Dot Woodbridge at Vision australia.org. This has been talking 0:14:17.508 --> 0:14:21.168 tech with me has been Vision Australia's National Advisor on 0:14:21.168 --> 0:14:25.248 Access Technology, David Woodbridge. I'm Stephen Jolley. Take care. We'll 0:14:25.248 --> 0:14:26.688 talk more tech next week. See you.