S1: From Vision Australia. This is talking vision. And now here's
S1: your host, Sam Colley.
S2: Hello, everyone. It's great to be here with you. And
S2: for the next half hour, we talk matters of blindness
S2: and low vision.
S3: In an ideal world, I would love to be able
S3: just to read my bills like everyone else would without
S3: having to go through some sort of, like, complicated process
S3: to work around the built in inaccessibility of the bill
S3: and having to call them up, advocate for myself, blah, blah, blah.
S3: I just want to be able to read it straight
S3: off the bat like a sighted person would.
S2: Welcome to the program. It's a reunion of sorts on
S2: the show this week as we chat with a couple
S2: of familiar voices to the talking Vision faithful. First up,
S2: we hear from Raya Andrean. Raya has been raising awareness
S2: about the inaccessibility of utility bills for people who are
S2: blind or have low vision, sharing her personal experiences of
S2: the difficulties she's faced having a bill provided to her
S2: in a format that is easily accessible and understandable. You
S2: may have seen Raya speaking about this in a recent
S2: ABC article and it's my great pleasure to welcome her
S2: onto the show to talk all about it. That interview's
S2: coming up right around the corner, so make sure to
S2: stay tuned. And then after you hear from Raya, Stellar,
S2: Glory's back on the show to give us the latest
S2: updates from the Vision Australia Library with some exciting upcoming
S2: events on the horizon. And then last but certainly not least,
S2: Francis Caitlin joins us for a Reader recommended. I hope
S2: you enjoy this week's episode of Talking Vision. Reverend Ryan
S2: is a freelance writer and musician based in Sydney, but
S2: she's also a voice that long term listeners to Talking
S2: Vision would be quite familiar with. You may have seen
S2: her work in ABC Classic more recently, but also she
S2: appeared in an ABC article talking all about the lack
S2: of accessibility of utility bills for people who are blind
S2: or have low vision. And she joins me now to
S2: talk all about it. Welcome back to Talking Vision. Great
S2: to hear your voice again.
S3: Thank you so much for having me.
S2: Firstly, where could you describe your experiences that you've had
S2: with utility bills in recent times?
S3: Sure thing. So I normally get my bill sent to
S3: me via email and my utility companies and council and
S3: everybody else normally send me the bills in PDF format,
S3: which is not particularly accessible.
S2: Okay. And what particular aspects of the PDFs were inaccessible
S2: for you and the people out there who are listening,
S2: who are blind or have low vision might be quite
S2: familiar with the challenges that come along with PDFs. But
S2: for the benefit of our broader listeners, what sort of
S2: things were some obstacles that you faced?
S3: Yeah, so it's mainly the formatting of how the information
S3: is being presented. So for instance, when I get presented
S3: with my electricity bill, there are different charges and rights
S3: and usually it's done in a table format, but most
S3: of the times it gets scrambled. Whichever way. I kind
S3: of try to convert the PDF format into something I
S3: can read. And that makes it, you know, I can't
S3: really work out whether this amount refers to this particular
S3: charge or if like the second amount refers to another
S3: particular charge, it's connecting those dots. That's really difficult to do.
S2: And did you find that the energy companies were quite
S2: receptive when you brought this up with them? What sort
S2: of response did you get from that?
S3: So they didn't really say that, Oh, no, we can't
S3: do that. We can't provide you the bill in your
S3: preferred format. They don't say that because that's clear discrimination.
S3: But what's frustrating is they say, okay, like we'll do
S3: something about this, will try to help you as much
S3: as we can. And because I used to work for
S3: a transcription department at Virgin Australia, I told them how
S3: they could help me, but none of my suggestions were
S3: taken and in the end the issues just weren't resolved.
S3: And my next bill will come. Same thing all over again.
S3: Sometimes it's like higher than the previous month and I
S3: want to know why. Sometimes it's lower than the previous
S3: month and I want to know why. And that's just
S3: no way for me.
S2: To do that and understand where the upshot of all
S2: of this was, that you have had to move from
S2: different providers because you weren't getting that response that you
S2: were looking for. Has that made a difference for you?
S2: What sort of improvements have you saying there.
S3: In terms of everyday living? I haven't really had a
S3: lot of improvements that's noticeable apart from, you know, like
S3: the new company has promised that they will supply my
S3: bill in something I can read, which my preferred format
S3: at this point in time is text.
S2: Okay. And I understand there is a possibility that bills
S2: can be sent in Braille, but that is also possibly
S2: quite cumbersome because if you have bills in embossed Braille,
S2: that would be a giant format and that's quite unwieldy.
S2: So that's possibly not really an option for quite a
S2: few people. Have you ever considered getting a Braille bill
S2: or is that sort of just been a bit too cumbersome?
S3: So my consideration of not using embossed Braille is because
S3: I'm trying to cut down on paper, you know, because
S3: I have worked for Vision Australia, it's actually quite easy
S3: for me to navigate those bills knowing how they are
S3: structured and things like that. But I want to minimise
S3: my environmental footprint. And the thing about electronic Braille is
S3: that normally I need a special reader to be able
S3: to read it, which is not a problem. But currently
S3: my Braille device is not connected to the internet, so
S3: it kind of involves a bit of a two step process.
S3: All right, well, if it's like a text, I could
S3: just click on the link on my email attachment and
S3: be able to read it there.
S2: And whether those people have Braille readers or not, they
S2: are also quite pricey and they're not, you know, not
S2: always available for everybody. So that's another consideration. And, you know,
S2: having that accessibility of a text, that's crucial because as
S2: you said, you just click on the link and the
S2: document comes up and it's in with your screen reader
S2: and that helps quite a bit. So what would you
S2: like to see improve in terms of digital accessibility, whether
S2: that's PDFs or just builds that are available online on
S2: the browser? What sort of things would you really love
S2: to say improved across the board and made them consistently accessible?
S3: Oh wow, that is such a big question. Of course.
S3: We've got we've.
S2: Got a long time we can, you know, go into
S2: as much or as little detail as you want. Yeah.
S3: So of course, in an ideal world, I would love
S3: to be able just to read my bills like everyone
S3: else would without having to go through some sort of like,
S3: complicated process to work around the built in inaccessibility of
S3: the bill and having to call them up, advocate for myself, blah, blah, blah.
S3: I just want to be able to read it straight
S3: off the bat like a sighted person would in terms
S3: of like, what can we all do together to kind
S3: of make that happen? I think something that might be
S3: helpful is if we focus less on the visual format,
S3: on how a sighted person would navigate this visually and
S3: actually like lay out the information in a way that
S3: is more accessible for other people, that would make a
S3: huge difference. So instead of presenting figures with sharp peaks
S3: during certain times on graphics, like why don't you use
S3: words to do that? Or instead of formatting using tables like,
S3: why don't you use a list that a blind person
S3: can still relate to the information that they need? Like
S3: that doesn't take a rocket scientist to do that.
S2: Would that be something like they could tell you the
S2: days on which you use the most electricity or water or,
S2: you know, something like that, Would that be of use
S2: for people who are blind or have low vision? You
S2: think what sort of information would you love to say?
S2: Like in particular?
S3: So if I know when is my peak usage, when
S3: I use the electricity most I could make decisions on,
S3: Do I then like cut down on my household appliances
S3: during those times to spread out my usage so I
S3: don't get hit with such a big bill at the
S3: end or something like that. So yeah, any kind of
S3: information that is presented in a logical manner is really useful. However,
S3: most of the times I'm left with, okay, like I
S3: have to pay this much money. I'm not too sure
S3: why I have some suspicions. Maybe it's because I like
S3: to use the dishwasher at 5 p.m. instead of 12 p.m.
S3: but I can't know that for sure from this bill.
S3: So let me call them up and talk to them.
S3: And that takes time.
S2: Does Yeah. And you know, it seems that bills across
S2: the board at the moment, unfortunately, they're quite hit and
S2: miss and they're unpredictable because there's no requirements around compliance
S2: with accessibility standards or benchmarks. There's a few holes, as
S2: I understand it, in the legislation where, you know, things
S2: aren't as up to date with, you know, where they
S2: need to be and the acts that are drawn up
S2: that are currently in effect, they don't specify about online
S2: things such as these Web based documents. And that's a
S2: problem in and of itself. So what would you like
S2: to see change in these sort of areas?
S3: Okay. So as I understand it, there is a change.
S3: The guideline for accessible PDF is going to be updated
S3: later this year to be in line with either the
S3: 2018 or the 2023 guideline. Currently we're on 2009 and
S3: there have been so many things like Tick Tock wasn't
S3: even thought of, Instagram wasn't around back then. So that's
S3: just to give you an idea of how fast the
S3: technological world has moved on from that point in time
S3: in terms of what would I like to see? I
S3: think what I would really love to see is for
S3: more people to be aware of the principles of universal
S3: designs of designing things, whether digital or physical. Like, you know,
S3: you think about what kind of people who will like
S3: to use this from the beginning instead of, Oh yeah,
S3: like we'll build something and then we'll retrofit for people
S3: who have disabilities usually when that happens. We don't get
S3: the best experience. However, if we're there from the beginning
S3: of your app building and your website coding and whatever,
S3: it does give us a much better experience in terms
S3: of being able to participate in those. And unfortunately, most
S3: of us are not in a position to stop interacting
S3: with something like utility bills, like we need electricity. And
S3: unless if we're really in a position to be off
S3: the grid, most of us have to pay for our electricity.
S3: But I think especially in the cost of living crisis,
S3: it's a really reasonable ask to know what is it
S3: exactly are we paying for and how can we cut
S3: if we want to?
S2: I'm Sam Culley and you're listening to Talking Vision on
S2: Vision Australia radio associated stations of RPA and the Community
S2: Radio Network. I hope you enjoyed the first half of
S2: my interview with Andrea Andrean. If you missed any part
S2: of the interview with Ray or you'd love to hear
S2: it again, the interview will be available as an interview
S2: highlight on our podcast platform. Just simply head to the
S2: podcast app of your choice, or you can also access
S2: it through the Vision Australia Library. And now back to
S2: my interview with Ray. There's a bit to be said
S2: about the lack of accessibility in hardware and software associated
S2: with these new and emerging technologies. I mean, for example,
S2: with your utilities, you want to know information about your
S2: smart meter. You might want to know what your solar
S2: panels are doing, how much you know, do you get
S2: a rebate for your solar panel? Where do you find
S2: that information? And, you know, there's things about monitoring batteries
S2: and power cells that are used by consumers as backups
S2: to solar panels. There's a lot of new technologies that
S2: perhaps bills aren't keeping up to date with or they haven't.
S2: I'd love to.
S3: Know their information.
S2: I would, Yeah, that's very important information because if you've
S2: got these things hooked up, you want to know like
S2: what impact that's having on your usage and on your
S2: bills that you have to pay.
S3: And I want to know in real time. Absolutely. That's the.
S2: Thing. Like if you can't monitor your electricity usage through
S2: your smart meter, then you can't make informed choices about
S2: how you use electricity to maximize savings and minimize cost
S2: regardless of how accessible your actual bill is. So I
S2: think that really gets to the heart of this whole
S2: conversation that we're having right now, doesn't it?
S3: Yeah. So, for instance, I have a solar panel that
S3: comes with an app and there are two pertinent bits
S3: in the app. So these comes in a series. So
S3: the first series of figures is how much solar has
S3: been produced today. And then an unlabeled figure, if you
S3: can actually see it, has like a house with numbers
S3: inside the circle. So that actually represents like how much
S3: electricity I'm using in the house right now. And then
S3: the third figure in the series is how much the
S3: solar panel is producing now. And the fourth figure, which
S3: is a lightning tower with a light bulb which is unlabeled,
S3: is how much electricity from the grid am I using?
S3: So it's not the clearest, but I can navigate that. However,
S3: further down the app, like there's a much more comprehensive
S3: breakdown with lots of series and figures and yeah, I
S3: just cannot remember everything. Like no matter how many times
S3: people tell me, Oh yeah, it's like Abcd. By the
S3: time you get to the figure, I just can't remember. Oh,
S3: what was that about again? Like was that the electricity
S3: of the month or was that the how much I
S3: use today from the grid? Yeah. I just can't remember everything,
S3: especially if it's not labeled.
S2: And is that a separate app away from, you know,
S2: the utility bills or is that sort of are they
S2: all I guess it's.
S3: A separate app.
S2: Okay. And that sort of that also adds an extra
S2: layer of complexity for you to understand how they relate
S2: to each other and all that sort of thing. So
S2: that's probably another little bit of a challenge there for sure.
S2: So if a person finds that their utility bill isn't
S2: accessible in that, it doesn't allow them to read and
S2: understand the information they need, what would you suggest they
S2: should do?
S3: Okay. First thing first. I mean, this is based on
S3: what I would do. I will call up the electricity
S3: company and ask them to explain to me, look, I've
S3: got this bill. I don't get it. Can you please
S3: talk through? And if you don't understand, because they will
S3: use words like Off-peak charges and On-Demand charges and daily
S3: this and whatever. Like if you don't understand those words,
S3: ask them like, can you please explain and then say
S3: it back to them. Okay, so I've got my office
S3: charges this much, plus the daily charges that much. So
S3: this figure, plus that figure that makes that figure times,
S3: you know, your average days of what you've been billed for,
S3: like break it down with them and then after that,
S3: ask them, can you please provide me with this information
S3: in a format that I can read? And, you know,
S3: there's always in Australia, you can always tell them that
S3: vision Australia has. Transcription department that can help you with this.
S3: If you can't do it in house, go ask them
S3: if they can help you.
S2: And if all of that doesn't result in a satisfactory situation,
S2: then people can always consider lodging a complaint of disability
S2: discrimination because, you know, people should feel that they have
S2: that ability to do that, either under the Disability Discrimination
S2: Act or the relevant state or territory legislation. Do you
S2: think that would result in a bit more of a
S2: satisfactory outcome for people who are facing that sort of situation?
S3: You know, I always consider lodging a complaint with the
S3: Human Rights Commission as something that every person with disability
S3: who have experienced discrimination should do. However, I am also
S3: conscious that for lots of us, especially if we are
S3: working full time, blah blah blah, it takes a lot
S3: of mental and physical energy to be able to do so.
S2: Time consuming information.
S3: And things like that. So what I've done is I
S3: used my network to tell my story. In this case,
S3: I filled out a form at an ABC story about,
S3: you know, what I experienced, and I work with journalists
S3: to be able to get to the bottom of this
S3: particular issue.
S2: You know, there are a lot of different ways that
S2: people can get their voice heard, and that's super important
S2: for people to get that message out there. So thank
S2: you for catching up with me today and sharing your
S2: story and telling us all about the way that you've
S2: gone about things and the experiences that you've had today.
S2: So thank you again for that. I've been speaking today
S2: with Ray Indranee and we've been talking all about utility
S2: bills and accessibility today. Raya, thank you so much for
S2: your time today. It was a pleasure to catch up
S2: with you again and likewise.
S3: Sam. Thank you so much for having me.
S2: Thank you very much to Raya and Rani there. And
S2: now from where we go to another favourite of talking vision.
S2: It's still a glory, still is. Here to give us
S2: the latest from the library and she joins me right now. Stella,
S2: welcome back to Talking Vision. Thanks so much for your
S2: time today. Oh, no.
S1: Need to thank me. It's always a pleasure.
S2: Now, Stella, I understand there's some events coming up in
S2: the library. Tell us all about those now.
S1: Do you have any skeletons in your closet? In your
S1: family closet? Most don't stop. Well, we all have a
S1: fascinating story in our family that needs to be told.
S1: So the library is doing this fantastic series of workshops.
S1: It's run over three weeks. It's called Writing Family History.
S1: So as I said, we all have a fascinating story
S1: in our family. But where do we begin? Where do
S1: we look? Who do we speak to? It's being facilitated
S1: by author Jonathan Butler, and he wrote a book called
S1: The Boy in the Dress, and it's about a member
S1: of his family who was a former soldier. And Jonathan
S1: will use his own experience in research and writing about
S1: his ancestors. Participants will be provided with actionable advice on
S1: how to pick a story. Helpful Australian archives to check
S1: out and a deep dive into true crime and defence research.
S1: It is free for library members and it starts on Tuesday,
S1: August 22nd at 11 a.m. Australian Eastern Standard Time. It
S1: runs over three Tuesdays. This one is going to book out,
S1: I reckon, because our library members love an autobiography. They
S1: sure do. Yeah. So get in. Another thing that the
S1: library is running, especially for young people. They're looking for
S1: young people and big ideas. They are on the hunt
S1: for a group of vibrant young, library loving members aged
S1: 12 to 17, to help revolutionise their library experience. So
S1: they just want to make sure that the library is
S1: working hard for the youth element of the library. And
S1: now there are some solid perks for being part of
S1: the focus group, including gift cards, sneak peeks to upcoming
S1: initiatives and the chance to share your ideas with like
S1: minded teens. Now the other big news at the library
S1: is that they have launched it's a Biblio therapy podcast series.
S1: Do you know what Biblio therapy is?
S2: Sam Therapy of the book, by any chance?
S1: That's probably about it. And it's how a story in
S1: the book can help us with what's going on in
S1: our own lives. And this particular one is a wellbeing
S1: through stories with Dr. Susan to help you relax, reflect
S1: and renew. There are nine in the series, three for adults,
S1: three for young adults, and three for children. They are
S1: available through the library so you can listen through your
S1: device of choice. Now, would you like to find out
S1: how you can join any of our events or sign
S1: up for the youth focus group?
S2: Absolutely. Still, I'd love to.
S1: Well, the library newsletter will be out next week in
S1: hitting people's inboxes and all of these events and stories,
S1: including the upcoming Treat Yourself will be in the newsletter
S1: plus more. Or you can join the library. If you're
S1: not a member of the library, you can give them
S1: a call on 1300 654 656. That's 1300 654 656. Or get onto the
S1: Vision Australia website. All the events and information are in there.
S2: All right. So do keep an eye out for that.
S2: There's a lot of exciting things going on in the library,
S2: so check them out. Stella, it's been great to have
S2: you back on the show. It's a pleasure to chat
S2: as always. Thanks so much for your time today.
S1: Thanks, Sam.
S2: And now here's Francis Kelland with a reader recommended.
S4: Thank you, Sam. Today's reader recommended is about a city.
S4: It's a love song to a city in a memoir.
S4: It's called Perth and it's by David Whish-Wilson. David Whish-Wilson
S4: Perth is a place of surprising beauty, of sand swept
S4: peace and brilliant light, yet a place where the deeper
S4: historical currents are never too far beneath the surface, like
S4: the Swan River that flows in two directions at once,
S4: at certain times, with the fresh water flowing seaward above
S4: the salty water flowing in beneath it. Perth strikes perfect
S4: harmony with the city's contradictions and eccentricities. We look beyond
S4: the shiny glass facades, the boisterous talk of mining booms
S4: to the richness of the natural world and the trailblazers,
S4: the rebels, the occasional ghost and the ordinary people that
S4: bring Australia's remotest city to life. Let's hear a sample
S4: of David Whish-Wilson book, Perth Twice.
S5: A day The Skin of the Swan River rises in
S5: a small ripple as the tidal surge makes its way
S5: from the river mouth at Fremantle through Perth. Water and
S5: up into the higher reaches of the river near the
S5: fast growing suburb of Ellenbrook, just over 20km north east
S5: of Perth. In winter when a layer of brackish water
S5: runs off the scarp towards the ocean, the river flows
S5: in two directions with the freshwater flowing seaward above the
S5: saline water flowing in beneath it. Today, The diurnal bulge
S5: of water that reveals the incoming tide is invisible. It's
S5: a Sunday morning and I'm out on the river in
S5: an open kayak with my Uncle Scott, my father's youngest brother.
S5: Scott moved from Tasmania to Perth as a teenager in
S5: the 1970s. Like so many others, he stayed for the
S5: climate and the lifestyle and the opportunity to work.
S4: So that was Perth by David Whish-Wilson. There was a
S4: series of books by writers that wrote about the city
S4: that they grew up in, and so there's ones for
S4: all of the capital cities around Australia. If you would
S4: like that book or if you would like to find
S4: out more about how the Vision Australia Library can work
S4: for you. If you have a print disability, give the
S4: library a call on 1300 654 656. That's 1300 654 656. Or you can
S4: email library at Vision Australia. Org that's library at Vision Australia. Org.
S2: And that's all we have time for today. You've been
S2: listening to Talking Vision. Talking Vision is a production of
S2: Vision Australia Radio. Thanks to all involved with putting the
S2: show together And remember we love your feedback and comments,
S2: so please do get in touch on Talking vision at
S2: Vision australia.org. That's talking vision all one word at Vision australia.org.
S2: But until next week it's Sam Colley saying bye for now.
S1: You can contact Vision Australia by phoning us anytime during
S1: business hours on one 308 4746. That's one 384 746
S1: or by visiting Vision australia.org that's Vision australia.org.