WEBVTT - Talking Vision 745 Week Beginning 9th of September 2024 0:00:13.158 --> 0:00:18.948 From Vision Australia. This is talking vision. And now here's 0:00:18.948 --> 0:00:20.988 your host Sam Colley. 0:00:23.538 --> 0:00:26.658 Hello, everyone. It's great to be here with you. And 0:00:26.658 --> 0:00:29.628 for the next half hour we talk matters of blindness 0:00:29.628 --> 0:00:30.618 and low vision. 0:00:30.648 --> 0:00:35.988 We always accompany the presentation with a PowerPoint. It helps 0:00:35.988 --> 0:00:38.568 us to describe in the moment because I think one 0:00:38.568 --> 0:00:40.758 of the things that people enjoy most about art by 0:00:40.758 --> 0:00:43.968 description online is the fact that it's live, but also 0:00:43.968 --> 0:00:47.598 sometimes people with low vision, when the image is there 0:00:47.598 --> 0:00:50.358 and you're describing it, sometimes people say, you know, I 0:00:50.358 --> 0:00:53.238 really couldn't see what those brush strokes were. But now 0:00:53.238 --> 0:00:56.238 that you've said it's a little girl, now I can 0:00:56.238 --> 0:00:59.208 see it. So I think that that's an interesting element 0:00:59.208 --> 0:01:00.288 to the program. 0:01:00.318 --> 0:01:05.028 Welcome to the program. Coming up on the 13th of September, 0:01:05.028 --> 0:01:10.938 it's time for the monthly Art by description program run 0:01:10.938 --> 0:01:15.738 by the National Gallery of Australia in Canberra, both in 0:01:15.738 --> 0:01:21.168 person at the gallery but also online. You heard from 0:01:21.168 --> 0:01:27.018 Adrian Boag there from the National Gallery of Australia's Access team. 0:01:27.018 --> 0:01:31.008 That conversation's coming up later in the show for us 0:01:31.008 --> 0:01:34.248 to find out a little bit more about the program. 0:01:34.248 --> 0:01:39.858 But first I chat with Ross Joyce, the CEO of 0:01:39.858 --> 0:01:47.238 the Australian Federation of Disability Organisations, or Afto, following the 0:01:47.238 --> 0:01:53.088 big news about the pending retirement of Bill shorten, the 0:01:53.088 --> 0:01:57.678 Minister for the NDIS. I hope you enjoy this week's 0:01:57.678 --> 0:02:06.338 episode of Talking Vision. I started off my interview with 0:02:06.338 --> 0:02:11.738 Ross by asking him about his and Af2's reaction to 0:02:11.768 --> 0:02:14.978 the pending retirement of Bill shorten. 0:02:15.098 --> 0:02:17.378 Well, look, clearly we're a bit surprised we're in the 0:02:17.378 --> 0:02:19.658 middle of significant and we'll talk about it a bit later. 0:02:19.688 --> 0:02:23.048 As you said, Sam, significant reforms happening with the National 0:02:23.048 --> 0:02:27.248 Disability Insurance Scheme. And firstly, though we'd like to af2 0:02:27.248 --> 0:02:30.308 and our membership would like to thank Bill for his passion, 0:02:30.308 --> 0:02:32.558 commitment and all the work that he has done. I mean, 0:02:32.588 --> 0:02:36.488 Bill was there championing the NDIS before it became a 0:02:36.488 --> 0:02:39.698 reality and certainly getting him in as the minister. I 0:02:39.698 --> 0:02:42.788 think we're very fortunate to have somebody so passionate about 0:02:42.788 --> 0:02:46.628 the scheme and um, he's not quite gone yet. We 0:02:46.628 --> 0:02:49.838 still have until February, with Bill still obviously able to 0:02:49.838 --> 0:02:52.808 do some more work, and we're looking forward to continuing 0:02:52.928 --> 0:02:57.428 working with him in that capacity. Obviously for us, it's about, well, 0:02:57.458 --> 0:03:00.038 who takes over in that role and there's a lot 0:03:00.068 --> 0:03:02.048 of work to be done. It's not going to be 0:03:02.048 --> 0:03:05.378 completed by February. It's going to continue on for some time. 0:03:05.378 --> 0:03:08.168 So we're I suppose we're wanting to make sure that 0:03:08.168 --> 0:03:11.318 the government actually puts a minister in somebody who will 0:03:11.348 --> 0:03:14.018 be in cabinet. We see that as a as a 0:03:14.018 --> 0:03:17.228 major step that we had going forward when Bill was 0:03:17.228 --> 0:03:19.598 appointed to that role. We want to make sure that 0:03:19.598 --> 0:03:23.018 that ministerial role continues. We don't want to see it 0:03:23.018 --> 0:03:25.958 going back to an assistant minister level or something like that, 0:03:25.958 --> 0:03:27.728 which it was previously. 0:03:27.818 --> 0:03:31.568 We'll get back to that later, because that's an extremely 0:03:31.568 --> 0:03:38.678 important topic, especially given the backdrop against the recent finalisation 0:03:38.678 --> 0:03:43.718 of the government's response to the Disability Royal Commission and 0:03:44.018 --> 0:03:47.798 all the discussions there and all that sort of thing. 0:03:47.798 --> 0:03:51.278 But before we get to that, Ross, I'd love to 0:03:51.308 --> 0:03:55.988 just focus on the changes to the NDIS in particular, 0:03:55.988 --> 0:03:58.988 in case people aren't aware, there have been quite a 0:03:58.988 --> 0:04:03.388 few reforms of late. So what are the major things 0:04:03.388 --> 0:04:06.658 that you think and after thinks perhaps are the most 0:04:06.658 --> 0:04:10.228 important things for people to know about in regards to 0:04:10.258 --> 0:04:14.398 those reforms, and perhaps how they will affect people's daily lives? 0:04:14.578 --> 0:04:17.278 Mm. Well, right at the moment, the major one that 0:04:17.278 --> 0:04:22.048 is coming through hasn't come into operation yet but should 0:04:22.048 --> 0:04:24.628 be in. I don't have a date. We're still waiting 0:04:24.658 --> 0:04:27.148 to hear when that is, but probably by the end 0:04:27.148 --> 0:04:31.408 of this month or early into October. And that is 0:04:31.408 --> 0:04:34.978 in terms of what supports people can utilise as part 0:04:34.978 --> 0:04:37.948 of their plan. I think there was a fair bit 0:04:37.948 --> 0:04:40.888 of media coverage of that. We certainly put out a 0:04:40.888 --> 0:04:44.308 position on that as well, in looking at lists of 0:04:44.308 --> 0:04:46.948 what's in and what's out in terms of supports for 0:04:46.948 --> 0:04:50.008 people that are participants within the scheme. We think there 0:04:50.008 --> 0:04:51.628 needs to be a lot more work done on that. 0:04:51.628 --> 0:04:54.508 We believe that there should be a principles based approach 0:04:54.538 --> 0:04:57.058 rather than just a list of in and out. The 0:04:57.058 --> 0:05:00.458 government says it has other legal advice that requires it 0:05:00.458 --> 0:05:03.848 to do that, and that's why the legislation is that way. 0:05:03.878 --> 0:05:07.508 That's backed up from what the Ndia, the agencies telling 0:05:07.508 --> 0:05:10.148 us as well. However, we still think there's room for 0:05:10.178 --> 0:05:12.938 a principles based approach on what's in and out, rather 0:05:12.938 --> 0:05:16.388 than just a straight listing of items that are in 0:05:16.388 --> 0:05:19.688 and out. We think that that still will then allow 0:05:19.688 --> 0:05:23.108 for choice and control, and it will also take into 0:05:23.108 --> 0:05:27.278 account what a person with disability or disabilities requires, which, 0:05:27.278 --> 0:05:30.188 as we know, every individual with disability is different to 0:05:30.188 --> 0:05:33.428 another one, and we need to make sure that those 0:05:33.428 --> 0:05:37.388 supports are provided and continue to be provided. But I 0:05:37.388 --> 0:05:39.458 need to give assurance to your listeners at the moment. 0:05:39.458 --> 0:05:42.368 There's no change at this stage to any of that 0:05:42.368 --> 0:05:45.518 that will come into effect later, and it will mainly 0:05:45.518 --> 0:05:48.578 come into effect, particularly for any of the changes for 0:05:48.578 --> 0:05:51.578 those that are having a plan review as that comes up, 0:05:51.578 --> 0:05:54.548 then there will be changes made, but until then there 0:05:54.548 --> 0:05:58.578 won't be. Now that said, those lists of supports of 0:05:58.578 --> 0:06:01.278 what's in and what's out will come into effect by 0:06:01.278 --> 0:06:04.878 next month, and it will be important for everyone to 0:06:04.908 --> 0:06:08.028 be aware of what they can still continue to maintain 0:06:08.028 --> 0:06:10.758 under their plan and what may not be able to 0:06:10.788 --> 0:06:13.098 be obtained. And if there's a need to try and 0:06:13.098 --> 0:06:15.498 get an exemption on that, well, that's what would then 0:06:15.498 --> 0:06:16.818 need to take place. 0:06:16.848 --> 0:06:20.448 Let's have a little bit of a broader chat now 0:06:20.448 --> 0:06:25.368 about things like the importance of continued support for people 0:06:25.368 --> 0:06:30.348 with a disability, with that minister being in cabinet, for example, 0:06:30.348 --> 0:06:36.048 with the Disability Royal Commission's recommendation to implement a minister 0:06:36.048 --> 0:06:40.548 for disability, not just a minister for the NDIS in particular, 0:06:40.548 --> 0:06:43.578 but a little bit more of a broad ranging role. 0:06:43.578 --> 0:06:47.748 But against that sort of backdrop, what are your beliefs 0:06:47.748 --> 0:06:52.518 and those beliefs about what the best situation is going forward? 0:06:52.578 --> 0:06:55.548 Well, thanks, Sam. And you mentioned about the royal Commission, 0:06:55.548 --> 0:06:59.178 I think its recommendation 5.6, actually indicated that we should 0:06:59.178 --> 0:07:03.528 have a minister for disability Inclusion and Equity and also 0:07:03.528 --> 0:07:07.218 a department for that. We're strong supporters after, and our 0:07:07.218 --> 0:07:10.878 members are strong supporters of that recommendation, and we put 0:07:10.878 --> 0:07:14.598 that forward in our response to the Disability Royal Commission recommendations. 0:07:14.598 --> 0:07:17.418 We started that back in December. We came out with 0:07:17.448 --> 0:07:21.708 a complete response to the 222 recommendations. And then we 0:07:21.708 --> 0:07:25.008 further outlined in February this year what we thought were 0:07:25.008 --> 0:07:28.458 important recommendations that needed to be picked up over the 0:07:28.458 --> 0:07:31.698 course of this year and into early next year. And 0:07:31.698 --> 0:07:35.208 one of those was exactly that recommendation for a minister 0:07:35.208 --> 0:07:39.318 to be appointed in that role. Unfortunately, with the government 0:07:39.318 --> 0:07:41.988 in its response, which, you know, I think it was 0:07:41.988 --> 0:07:44.808 pretty well documented and we certainly said the same thing 0:07:44.808 --> 0:07:48.438 was fairly lacklustre. We don't believe that the recommendations that 0:07:48.438 --> 0:07:51.288 should have been picked up were even looked at. Most 0:07:51.288 --> 0:07:54.818 of the things were batted down the road for consideration later. 0:07:54.818 --> 0:07:57.878 There are only a small number 13 recommendations that were 0:07:57.878 --> 0:08:01.688 adopted at all, and even in that case, we still 0:08:01.688 --> 0:08:04.448 didn't get any timeline on when they will come into 0:08:04.448 --> 0:08:06.578 effect or force or what they were going to do 0:08:06.578 --> 0:08:09.128 with those. So we think there's a lot of work 0:08:09.128 --> 0:08:11.078 that we all need to do as a community to 0:08:11.108 --> 0:08:14.888 keep moving those recommendations forward. We would like to see 0:08:14.888 --> 0:08:18.188 the one with the new minister roll in there. The 0:08:18.188 --> 0:08:23.798 government's actual response to that was that it noted that recommendation. Sam, 0:08:23.798 --> 0:08:26.978 in noting a recommendation by government from a royal commission, 0:08:26.978 --> 0:08:28.748 that means nothing will happen. No. 0:08:28.778 --> 0:08:29.258 That's right. 0:08:29.288 --> 0:08:33.008 So yeah, we're very disappointed with that. We think now, though, 0:08:33.008 --> 0:08:37.208 there's an opportunity, there's a watershed moment with Bill announcing 0:08:37.208 --> 0:08:41.708 his retirement from politics that that then opens that up 0:08:41.708 --> 0:08:43.508 for the government to do a review of that. And 0:08:43.508 --> 0:08:47.378 we'd encourage the Prime Minister to show leadership in that respect, 0:08:47.378 --> 0:08:51.488 and for the Prime Minister and the caucus and cabinet 0:08:51.488 --> 0:08:55.538 to look at truly making a keen difference to people 0:08:55.538 --> 0:09:00.428 with disability. By relooking at that recommendation, which was adopted 0:09:00.428 --> 0:09:03.278 from all of the commissioners on the Royal Commission, it 0:09:03.278 --> 0:09:08.018 wasn't a subgroup. It was a recommendation from the full commission. 0:09:08.018 --> 0:09:10.178 We think that should be enacted. 0:09:10.208 --> 0:09:13.958 On that topic, Ros, we have had response from people 0:09:13.958 --> 0:09:18.908 with Disability Australia at the time following the result, where 0:09:18.938 --> 0:09:23.408 only 13 of the recommendations were fully committed to. And 0:09:23.438 --> 0:09:26.138 it's pretty widely agreed that it is, as you've said, 0:09:26.138 --> 0:09:29.378 quite disappointing and all that sort of thing. But there is, 0:09:29.378 --> 0:09:33.398 as you've also said, a lot of opportunity for things 0:09:33.398 --> 0:09:37.208 to improve and for people with disabilities to have their 0:09:37.208 --> 0:09:41.258 voices heard on a much grander scale, and putting that 0:09:41.258 --> 0:09:45.758 into practice in quite a few more official channels, such 0:09:45.758 --> 0:09:49.808 as that Minister for disability and a department that is 0:09:49.808 --> 0:09:55.618 devoted to improving the lives of people with disabilities. So 0:09:55.618 --> 0:10:00.688 first and foremost, what are your most immediate hopes for 0:10:00.688 --> 0:10:05.908 improvement in that sector going forward with this uncertainty? But also, 0:10:05.908 --> 0:10:09.418 as you've said, opportunity for great change and great improvement 0:10:09.418 --> 0:10:12.388 for the lives of people with disabilities. 0:10:12.538 --> 0:10:16.138 Look, we're pretty positive that we can get a minister 0:10:16.138 --> 0:10:19.408 through someone who is going to be equally as passionate 0:10:19.438 --> 0:10:22.858 as Bill in terms of pushing forward for changes and 0:10:22.858 --> 0:10:26.038 improvements for the lives of people with disability and and 0:10:26.038 --> 0:10:29.638 the supports for those that require them. We think, as 0:10:29.638 --> 0:10:32.458 I said, that it is an opportunity right now with 0:10:32.458 --> 0:10:34.858 the change with Bill retiring, that the government can now 0:10:34.858 --> 0:10:37.258 have another relook at everything. And I won't get into 0:10:37.258 --> 0:10:40.168 the politics of all of that. But we think that 0:10:40.168 --> 0:10:42.778 the Prime Minister does need to show that leadership. We 0:10:42.778 --> 0:10:44.758 think it's a good chance for the Prime Minister to 0:10:44.788 --> 0:10:48.298 step up, take that on and lead with the caucus 0:10:48.298 --> 0:10:50.608 cabinet to make sure that we get the right person 0:10:50.608 --> 0:10:53.458 in there. I think the role that we spoke about 0:10:53.458 --> 0:10:56.218 would be great if the government would have a relook 0:10:56.248 --> 0:10:58.648 at that, and we'd certainly encourage them to do that 0:10:58.648 --> 0:11:02.038 and look at that recommendation from the Disability Royal Commission 0:11:02.038 --> 0:11:05.308 in its totality. And the fact is that, you know, 0:11:05.338 --> 0:11:08.458 18 or so per cent of people within Australia are 0:11:08.458 --> 0:11:12.568 people with disability. That's a fair size of the population 0:11:12.568 --> 0:11:16.258 that deserves to have the respect, that deserves to have 0:11:16.258 --> 0:11:21.208 an appropriate recognition in terms of ministerial responsibility at a 0:11:21.208 --> 0:11:23.878 wider scope than where we have it at the moment, 0:11:23.878 --> 0:11:27.988 where it's mainly just focused predominantly on the NDIS, which 0:11:27.988 --> 0:11:31.558 is important, but it's only one element of the supports 0:11:31.558 --> 0:11:35.098 and the requirements of people with disability need, as we 0:11:35.098 --> 0:11:38.278 know and your listeners know, not everybody with disability is 0:11:38.278 --> 0:11:41.668 a participant in the NDIS. So what are the wider 0:11:41.668 --> 0:11:45.778 things for inclusion and encouraging diversity within our culture and 0:11:45.778 --> 0:11:49.638 our society? We need that to be led by the 0:11:49.638 --> 0:11:53.148 federal government. The other key ones that we mentioned are 0:11:53.148 --> 0:11:55.278 coming out of all the changes that are happening with 0:11:55.278 --> 0:11:59.028 the NDIS. And a key one for everybody with disability 0:11:59.028 --> 0:12:03.318 is really looking at getting embedded those foundational supports that 0:12:03.318 --> 0:12:07.068 are required across all states and territories. That's a key 0:12:07.098 --> 0:12:09.618 one that's going to take some time to deliver on. 0:12:09.648 --> 0:12:12.348 It now looks like the states and territories are on 0:12:12.348 --> 0:12:15.738 board with doing that. That's great. Our role is, of course, 0:12:15.738 --> 0:12:18.708 to make sure that we get appropriate supports, provided that 0:12:18.708 --> 0:12:22.218 it is a real change that happens because as we saw, 0:12:22.218 --> 0:12:24.678 there was a lot of when the NDIS came in, 0:12:24.708 --> 0:12:27.798 there was a lot of desertion of providing supports and 0:12:27.798 --> 0:12:32.418 services right across all the states and territories. So we 0:12:32.418 --> 0:12:34.638 want to make sure that what we get in now 0:12:34.638 --> 0:12:38.358 under foundational supports, do deliver on the promises that have 0:12:38.358 --> 0:12:39.078 been made. 0:12:39.108 --> 0:12:44.238 Against that background of uncertainty. People might be interested in 0:12:44.238 --> 0:12:47.868 finding out a little bit more about what Afto does 0:12:47.898 --> 0:12:52.968 and the member organizations. So for people to find out 0:12:52.968 --> 0:12:57.078 a little bit more about Afto and the organizations that 0:12:57.078 --> 0:13:01.098 sit under the Afto umbrella, what's the best way for 0:13:01.098 --> 0:13:05.088 people to maybe head along to your website and find 0:13:05.088 --> 0:13:07.098 out a little bit more and get a bit more 0:13:07.098 --> 0:13:10.488 information about where they can go and who they can 0:13:10.488 --> 0:13:13.608 write letters to in terms of government, or get active 0:13:13.638 --> 0:13:14.808 that way, perhaps. 0:13:14.838 --> 0:13:17.148 Yes, Sam, certainly the best place is to have a 0:13:17.148 --> 0:13:19.578 look at our website in that you can also find 0:13:19.578 --> 0:13:24.978 out about our policy statements, our submissions. Uh, we do 0:13:24.978 --> 0:13:27.108 a lot of work in the space. Some of it 0:13:27.108 --> 0:13:29.568 is unknown, probably to a lot of your listeners, because 0:13:29.568 --> 0:13:32.598 we're not working at that individual level. So it's really, 0:13:32.598 --> 0:13:35.598 I think, interesting for people to get a handle on. Well, 0:13:35.778 --> 0:13:39.978 what are the wider advocacy organizations do at a national level? 0:13:39.978 --> 0:13:42.738 And we have quite a number of our members are 0:13:42.738 --> 0:13:48.608 also national peaks in their own right, representing disability specific communities. 0:13:48.608 --> 0:13:50.948 So it's probably a good idea for your listeners to 0:13:50.978 --> 0:13:56.198 jump along to our website, which is WW dot o 0:13:56.198 --> 0:14:01.358 f d o.org dot o u, and find out a 0:14:01.358 --> 0:14:03.728 bit more about what we've been doing and continue to 0:14:03.728 --> 0:14:07.238 do on behalf of people with disability right across the country. 0:14:07.268 --> 0:14:12.248 That was Ross Joyce, the CEO of the Australian Federation 0:14:12.248 --> 0:14:23.438 of Disability Organisations. On the Sam Colley and you're listening 0:14:23.468 --> 0:14:29.108 to Talking Vision on Vision Australia Radio, associated stations of 0:14:29.108 --> 0:14:34.178 Reading Radio and the Community Radio Network. I hope you 0:14:34.178 --> 0:14:40.118 enjoyed that conversation there with Ross Joyce from after both 0:14:40.118 --> 0:14:43.868 these interviews. Today will be They are viable as interview 0:14:43.898 --> 0:14:49.208 highlights with extended content in both, so make sure to 0:14:49.238 --> 0:14:53.798 check out the interview highlights feed in your favorite podcast 0:14:53.798 --> 0:14:58.688 platform or through the Vision Australia library over the coming days. 0:14:58.688 --> 0:15:03.008 And now, coming up next, I speak with Adrian Borg 0:15:03.008 --> 0:15:08.018 from the National Gallery of Australia. I started by asking 0:15:08.048 --> 0:15:11.228 Adrian to tell us a little bit more about the 0:15:11.228 --> 0:15:14.018 monthly Art by description program. 0:15:14.048 --> 0:15:16.568 I certainly can, and yeah, I would like to give 0:15:16.568 --> 0:15:19.628 a shout out to, um, a lot of the people 0:15:19.628 --> 0:15:23.528 who participate or come along to Art by description each month, uh, 0:15:23.528 --> 0:15:28.328 who live in rural Victoria. We have some really wonderful participants, 0:15:28.328 --> 0:15:32.198 but the Art by description is a program that is 0:15:32.198 --> 0:15:36.188 delivered by the National Gallery of Australia each month. Uh, 0:15:36.188 --> 0:15:40.118 it's on a Friday afternoon, and we run this program 0:15:40.118 --> 0:15:43.378 at 2 p.m. in the afternoon, and that's mostly so 0:15:43.378 --> 0:15:48.298 that we can draw in every state and territory across Australia. 0:15:48.298 --> 0:15:51.298 So that's why it's at kind of quite odd time. 0:15:51.298 --> 0:15:53.578 And yeah, I suppose that's all I'm going to say. 0:15:53.578 --> 0:15:56.458 It's like an hour long program each month. And it 0:15:56.458 --> 0:15:59.668 has this really strong focus on the visual arts and 0:15:59.668 --> 0:16:03.088 the collection of the National Gallery of Australia in Canberra. 0:16:03.118 --> 0:16:07.678 Okay. And how long has art by description been running for? 0:16:07.708 --> 0:16:11.698 Is there perhaps a particular story of how it came about? 0:16:11.698 --> 0:16:15.448 There is a long story, I think, since like the 1970s, 0:16:15.448 --> 0:16:18.868 but the program as it is now is more recent. 0:16:18.868 --> 0:16:23.818 And it wasn't until maybe 2019 that we began delivering 0:16:23.818 --> 0:16:27.058 an on site program each month as part of a 0:16:27.088 --> 0:16:30.058 sort of an access to Art weekend, so that we 0:16:30.058 --> 0:16:35.398 could make the exhibitions and collection available to anybody. And 0:16:35.398 --> 0:16:39.298 then during Covid, it was just like, very interesting as 0:16:39.298 --> 0:16:43.378 I began to discuss with access audiences during Covid what 0:16:43.378 --> 0:16:45.478 we could possibly do and how we could meet up 0:16:45.478 --> 0:16:49.108 with zoom. And you probably remember, Sam, how we had 0:16:49.138 --> 0:16:51.448 not we didn't have a lot of confidence with zoom 0:16:51.448 --> 0:16:53.758 when we first went into the first lockdown. 0:16:53.788 --> 0:16:56.908 Very commonly shared experience that one. 0:16:56.908 --> 0:17:00.628 Yes, totally. And so when the people who I'd been 0:17:00.628 --> 0:17:04.288 working with here at the gallery, when they said to me, like, Adrian, 0:17:04.288 --> 0:17:06.898 what are you going to do for us during lockdown, 0:17:06.898 --> 0:17:09.028 I kind of looked at them and I was just like, 0:17:09.028 --> 0:17:12.178 I have no idea what am I going to do 0:17:12.178 --> 0:17:14.578 for you? And so really they said, well, this is 0:17:14.578 --> 0:17:17.428 what you're going to do. Okay. You know, we're going 0:17:17.458 --> 0:17:20.128 to meet online and you're going to describe the works 0:17:20.128 --> 0:17:22.828 of art. And we, I suppose, began to I really 0:17:22.828 --> 0:17:25.618 worked with the same group of people almost every week, 0:17:25.618 --> 0:17:29.638 really regularly during lockdown. We only had two lockdowns here 0:17:29.638 --> 0:17:33.028 in the Act, and after the second lockdown was finished 0:17:33.028 --> 0:17:36.778 in 2022, I really thought this is not a program 0:17:36.778 --> 0:17:39.498 I'm prepared to give up. And so we thought, well, 0:17:39.498 --> 0:17:43.068 let's have a national Art by description program each month 0:17:43.068 --> 0:17:46.908 and let's just make our skills had just like really developed. 0:17:46.908 --> 0:17:50.118 And we felt a lot of confidence both online and 0:17:50.118 --> 0:17:54.108 also with audio description. And we felt that our audience 0:17:54.108 --> 0:17:57.318 had given us kind of so much advice and provided 0:17:57.318 --> 0:18:00.708 so much time for us to learn that it was 0:18:00.708 --> 0:18:04.038 just something that we really needed to continue and also 0:18:04.038 --> 0:18:09.078 repay and really art by description online. We still are 0:18:09.078 --> 0:18:14.148 consulting and learning from the people who participate all the time. 0:18:14.148 --> 0:18:17.268 It's been a really joyful experience for us. 0:18:17.268 --> 0:18:22.188 You've mentioned that you've been running the program for five 0:18:22.188 --> 0:18:26.268 years now. It's a five year birthday that's quite auspicious. 0:18:26.298 --> 0:18:29.898 That's also a marker of how successful it's been, and 0:18:29.898 --> 0:18:34.548 the feedback that you've gotten from the participants about how 0:18:34.548 --> 0:18:37.578 much they enjoy it and how much they enjoy the 0:18:37.578 --> 0:18:41.868 format of the hour long exhibitions that you do run. 0:18:41.898 --> 0:18:45.918 Is that still in a sort of a hybrid format, 0:18:45.918 --> 0:18:50.208 or is it more geared towards people coming in in 0:18:50.208 --> 0:18:54.318 person and accessing the art that way, or is it 0:18:54.318 --> 0:18:57.978 much more online these days? What sort of been the 0:18:57.978 --> 0:18:59.478 split between the two? 0:18:59.508 --> 0:19:03.798 Well, actually the split is pretty 50 over 50, I suppose. 0:19:03.828 --> 0:19:06.528 On site we can allow people to touch things. We 0:19:06.528 --> 0:19:09.948 can do touch tours, we can make other programs at 0:19:09.948 --> 0:19:14.268 the gallery accessible through audio description. But online, the way 0:19:14.268 --> 0:19:17.718 that we, I suppose, try and prevent listener fatigue online 0:19:17.718 --> 0:19:21.108 is we always include a couple of different modes. So 0:19:21.108 --> 0:19:23.328 we have multiple voices, a bit like you and I 0:19:23.358 --> 0:19:26.868 chatting now, but we also include a piece of music. 0:19:26.868 --> 0:19:31.368 We have really kind of regular breaks throughout the, you know, 0:19:31.398 --> 0:19:35.678 45 minutes to an hour. And we also include poetry. 0:19:35.888 --> 0:19:41.288 Wow. Okay. That's amazing. I'm really keen to hear about 0:19:41.288 --> 0:19:44.288 all the ways in which the art is made accessible 0:19:44.288 --> 0:19:47.378 for people who are blind or have low vision. That 0:19:47.378 --> 0:19:52.178 addition of audio description is no doubt a fantastic aspect 0:19:52.178 --> 0:19:56.108 of that. But how do people interact with the art 0:19:56.108 --> 0:20:00.188 pieces when they don't have that visual component? You know, 0:20:00.218 --> 0:20:02.918 a lot of people out there may be thinking, how 0:20:02.918 --> 0:20:06.518 do you interact with a work of art, with a landscape, 0:20:06.518 --> 0:20:10.358 with a portrait or things like that? With all of 0:20:10.358 --> 0:20:16.268 these accessible features? And obviously over the past five years, 0:20:16.298 --> 0:20:20.978 a lot of people have really embraced this program that 0:20:20.978 --> 0:20:23.408 you are running art by description. 0:20:23.438 --> 0:20:26.348 You're forcing me to be really positive and that I 0:20:26.348 --> 0:20:29.168 really thank you for that, Sam. That's no problem. We 0:20:29.168 --> 0:20:33.818 try wherever possible to provide this kind of, like, in-person 0:20:33.818 --> 0:20:36.878 support for people. And I suppose that's what I'm we're 0:20:36.908 --> 0:20:39.338 kind of like a human intervention in a way. We're 0:20:39.338 --> 0:20:41.288 like an accessible intervention. 0:20:41.618 --> 0:20:45.338 Well, that's it. And helping people pass those barriers past 0:20:45.338 --> 0:20:48.908 those obstacles. We don't like to focus on the barriers 0:20:48.908 --> 0:20:51.908 and the obstacles. We like to focus on what can 0:20:51.908 --> 0:20:55.478 be done and what people can experience, and the ways 0:20:55.478 --> 0:21:00.338 that these art pieces are made more accessible. And other 0:21:00.338 --> 0:21:04.268 people can be their eyes and talk them through the 0:21:04.268 --> 0:21:08.648 pieces and all that sort of thing. So you've mentioned 0:21:08.678 --> 0:21:13.508 the touch tours and tactile elements of the exhibition, so 0:21:13.508 --> 0:21:17.648 that's also wonderful. But is there a particular way, Adrienne, 0:21:17.648 --> 0:21:21.218 that you describe the pieces you give, the layout of 0:21:21.218 --> 0:21:25.358 the work in particular? What's the sort of situation there? 0:21:25.358 --> 0:21:27.848 I think that when we describe a work of art, 0:21:27.848 --> 0:21:30.428 the thing that we really stick to is a kind 0:21:30.428 --> 0:21:31.448 of a structure. 0:21:31.448 --> 0:21:32.128 Yes. 0:21:32.488 --> 0:21:32.848 And that's. 0:21:32.848 --> 0:21:33.328 Important. 0:21:33.658 --> 0:21:37.498 A work of art from the broadest overview of the work, 0:21:37.498 --> 0:21:41.608 including the size. Yeah. And then we narrow down to 0:21:41.638 --> 0:21:44.278 the kind of the smaller details. 0:21:44.278 --> 0:21:48.868 And, Adrienne, for visitors to the National Gallery of Australia 0:21:48.868 --> 0:21:52.558 who are blind or have low vision, either attending art 0:21:52.558 --> 0:21:57.148 by description or the range of other exhibitions, what are 0:21:57.148 --> 0:21:59.908 some of the ways in which you've been able to 0:21:59.938 --> 0:22:02.818 make the gallery itself accessible? 0:22:02.848 --> 0:22:06.268 Sam, what I really want to say for people who 0:22:06.268 --> 0:22:09.628 can visit the National Gallery and maybe participate in art 0:22:09.628 --> 0:22:12.868 by description, on site here, or come to an exhibition, 0:22:12.868 --> 0:22:15.838 is that we always make sure that the labels are 0:22:15.838 --> 0:22:20.398 available in a large text booklet, and that's usually just 0:22:20.398 --> 0:22:22.798 in a like a little box on the wall as 0:22:22.798 --> 0:22:25.168 you enter into the exhibition. We have a number of 0:22:25.168 --> 0:22:28.048 copies available, and so people can pick those up and 0:22:28.048 --> 0:22:30.388 take them around the exhibition with them so that they 0:22:30.388 --> 0:22:32.668 I don't have to feel self-conscious when they are looking 0:22:32.668 --> 0:22:35.128 at the label that, you know, they're getting too close, 0:22:35.128 --> 0:22:37.348 and then the security guard is going to say something 0:22:37.378 --> 0:22:39.958 to them, or they're in the way of other visitors. 0:22:40.078 --> 0:22:44.218 We also have audio tours, and often that audio tool 0:22:44.248 --> 0:22:47.608 can even be downloaded before you come to the gallery. 0:22:47.608 --> 0:22:51.028 So you might actually kind of listen to it beforehand 0:22:51.028 --> 0:22:53.308 to help you kind of orient yourself and get a 0:22:53.308 --> 0:22:56.188 sense of the context for the show. And then if 0:22:56.188 --> 0:22:59.698 you come in person, we always take our iPads along 0:22:59.698 --> 0:23:02.008 on the tours as well. And so we sit in 0:23:02.008 --> 0:23:04.198 front of the works of art so people are comfortable, 0:23:04.198 --> 0:23:06.808 and then we can take a photograph with the iPad, 0:23:06.808 --> 0:23:09.808 and then people can expand the image in their, you know, 0:23:09.838 --> 0:23:13.108 while they're holding it. And sometimes that really helps to 0:23:13.138 --> 0:23:16.078 see what might be as just a tiny detail in 0:23:16.078 --> 0:23:17.488 a work of art as well. 0:23:17.518 --> 0:23:22.528 And Adrian, it is probably worth mentioning again here that 0:23:22.528 --> 0:23:26.638 it is a monthly program. So if people are hearing 0:23:26.638 --> 0:23:30.318 this after the 13th and they're thinking, oh damn, I 0:23:30.318 --> 0:23:33.468 missed out. I didn't get along to the program on 0:23:33.498 --> 0:23:38.598 the 13th of September. There are many more opportunities coming 0:23:38.598 --> 0:23:43.158 up for people to get involved and head along. So Adrian, 0:23:43.158 --> 0:23:47.178 with that in mind, for all of those people who 0:23:47.178 --> 0:23:52.548 are probably interested in providing their feedback and also finding 0:23:52.548 --> 0:23:55.878 out a little bit more about art by description, are 0:23:55.878 --> 0:23:59.868 you able to direct people to quite a few contact 0:23:59.868 --> 0:24:02.418 details for them to do that? 0:24:02.448 --> 0:24:06.348 Yes, of course Sam. So we have an access email, 0:24:06.348 --> 0:24:09.138 and that is probably one of the easiest ways for 0:24:09.138 --> 0:24:13.608 people to contact us. So we have a small access team. 0:24:13.608 --> 0:24:15.798 There are three of us in the team who have 0:24:15.798 --> 0:24:18.798 regular roles. And then there are we have a larger 0:24:18.798 --> 0:24:23.058 group of artists, educators who can also audio describe. But 0:24:23.058 --> 0:24:25.158 the best thing would for people to do would be 0:24:25.158 --> 0:24:29.028 to email access. That's a double C e double S 0:24:29.058 --> 0:24:36.528 access at N.g.a. That's National Gallery of Australia. NASA.gov for government. 0:24:36.948 --> 0:24:41.508 A few people were also very welcome to call me directly. 0:24:41.508 --> 0:24:44.778 And that would be like on O2 for Canberra. And 0:24:44.778 --> 0:24:48.738 then 62406632. 0:24:48.768 --> 0:24:57.828 Okay wonderful. And just repeating that email that's access at nagavara. 0:24:57.828 --> 0:25:04.938 And the phone number 026240. 6632. Or if you'd like 0:25:04.938 --> 0:25:14.748 to head along to their website that's Njegovo Noaa.gov dot edu. 0:25:14.838 --> 0:25:17.148 Oh thank you Sam. And I was just wondering, do 0:25:17.148 --> 0:25:18.948 you think I could trouble you just to say one 0:25:18.948 --> 0:25:19.638 more thing? 0:25:19.638 --> 0:25:20.928 No problem at all. 0:25:21.108 --> 0:25:23.388 Oh, thank you. I suppose I wanted to say that 0:25:23.388 --> 0:25:26.498 the program is always on the second Friday of the month. 0:25:26.498 --> 0:25:29.708 So we have this really regular scheduling. So it will be, 0:25:29.708 --> 0:25:33.548 as we said, the 13th of September. And then it 0:25:33.548 --> 0:25:37.268 will be on the 11th of October. So that's already 0:25:37.298 --> 0:25:40.628 kind of set. And those are already promoted on our website. 0:25:40.628 --> 0:25:42.908 But the other thing I'd like to say is that 0:25:42.908 --> 0:25:47.828 we always accompany the presentation with a PowerPoint. And for 0:25:47.828 --> 0:25:50.978 people who are blind, it helps us to describe in 0:25:50.978 --> 0:25:52.778 the moment, because I think one of the things that 0:25:52.778 --> 0:25:55.868 people enjoy most about art by description online is the 0:25:55.868 --> 0:25:59.378 fact that it's live, but also sometimes people with low vision, 0:25:59.378 --> 0:26:03.188 when the image is there and you're describing it, sometimes 0:26:03.188 --> 0:26:05.228 people say, you know, I really couldn't see what those 0:26:05.228 --> 0:26:08.318 brush strokes were. But now that you've said it's a 0:26:08.318 --> 0:26:10.958 little girl I know and now I can see it. 0:26:10.958 --> 0:26:14.258 So I think that that's a kind of an interesting 0:26:14.258 --> 0:26:16.568 element to the program. And the other thing that I 0:26:16.568 --> 0:26:19.418 wanted to say is on the 13th, we're focusing on 0:26:19.418 --> 0:26:23.648 an artist called Yoani Scarce. She's a First Nations artist 0:26:23.648 --> 0:26:29.048 from South Australia and she makes glass sculptures, and she 0:26:29.078 --> 0:26:32.228 was born in Woomera in South Australia. And her work 0:26:32.228 --> 0:26:35.258 is totally concerned with her family history. And I suppose 0:26:35.258 --> 0:26:38.738 the impact of all those experiments that occurred in the 0:26:38.738 --> 0:26:42.878 desert on First Nations people. The artist herself will be 0:26:43.148 --> 0:26:46.238 working with us to deliver this art by description. So 0:26:46.238 --> 0:26:48.788 that's a fairly unique opportunity as well. 0:26:48.818 --> 0:26:51.668 That's a super unique opportunity. I'm sure a lot of 0:26:51.668 --> 0:26:55.598 people will be very interested to interact with that and 0:26:55.598 --> 0:26:59.888 head along, so look forward to seeing how that goes. 0:26:59.918 --> 0:27:05.048 I've been speaking today with Adrian Bogue from the National 0:27:05.048 --> 0:27:09.998 Gallery of Australia, talking to me today about the Art 0:27:09.998 --> 0:27:15.578 by description monthly series available both online and in person 0:27:15.578 --> 0:27:25.438 at the National Gallery. And that's all the time we 0:27:25.438 --> 0:27:30.028 have for today. You've been listening to Talking Vision. Talking 0:27:30.028 --> 0:27:34.108 vision is a Vision Australia radio production. Thanks to all 0:27:34.108 --> 0:27:38.248 involved with putting the show together every week. And remember, 0:27:38.248 --> 0:27:41.008 we love hearing from you. So please get in touch 0:27:41.008 --> 0:27:46.588 any time on our email at Talking Vision. At Vision australia.org. 0:27:46.588 --> 0:27:51.778 That's talking vision all one word at Vision australia.org. But 0:27:51.778 --> 0:27:55.498 until next week it's Sam Colley saying bye for now. 0:27:58.888 --> 0:28:03.058 You can contact Vision Australia by phoning us anytime during 0:28:03.058 --> 0:28:12.958 business hours on 1300 847 406. That's one (300) 847-4106 or by visiting 0:28:12.958 --> 0:28:17.458 Vision australia.org. That's Vision australia.org.