S1: From Vision Australia. This is talking vision. And now here's
S1: your host Sam Colley.
S2: Hello, everyone. It's great to be here with you. And
S2: for the next half hour we talk matters of blindness
S2: and low vision.
S3: We always accompany the presentation with a PowerPoint. It helps
S3: us to describe in the moment because I think one
S3: of the things that people enjoy most about art by
S3: description online is the fact that it's live, but also
S3: sometimes people with low vision, when the image is there
S3: and you're describing it, sometimes people say, you know, I
S3: really couldn't see what those brush strokes were. But now
S3: that you've said it's a little girl, now I can
S3: see it. So I think that that's an interesting element
S3: to the program.
S2: Welcome to the program. Coming up on the 13th of September,
S2: it's time for the monthly Art by description program run
S2: by the National Gallery of Australia in Canberra, both in
S2: person at the gallery but also online. You heard from
S2: Adrian Boag there from the National Gallery of Australia's Access team.
S2: That conversation's coming up later in the show for us
S2: to find out a little bit more about the program.
S2: But first I chat with Ross Joyce, the CEO of
S2: the Australian Federation of Disability Organisations, or Afto, following the
S2: big news about the pending retirement of Bill shorten, the
S2: Minister for the NDIS. I hope you enjoy this week's
S2: episode of Talking Vision. I started off my interview with
S2: Ross by asking him about his and Af2's reaction to
S2: the pending retirement of Bill shorten.
S4: Well, look, clearly we're a bit surprised we're in the
S4: middle of significant and we'll talk about it a bit later.
S4: As you said, Sam, significant reforms happening with the National
S4: Disability Insurance Scheme. And firstly, though we'd like to af2
S4: and our membership would like to thank Bill for his passion,
S4: commitment and all the work that he has done. I mean,
S4: Bill was there championing the NDIS before it became a
S4: reality and certainly getting him in as the minister. I
S4: think we're very fortunate to have somebody so passionate about
S4: the scheme and um, he's not quite gone yet. We
S4: still have until February, with Bill still obviously able to
S4: do some more work, and we're looking forward to continuing
S4: working with him in that capacity. Obviously for us, it's about, well,
S4: who takes over in that role and there's a lot
S4: of work to be done. It's not going to be
S4: completed by February. It's going to continue on for some time.
S4: So we're I suppose we're wanting to make sure that
S4: the government actually puts a minister in somebody who will
S4: be in cabinet. We see that as a as a
S4: major step that we had going forward when Bill was
S4: appointed to that role. We want to make sure that
S4: that ministerial role continues. We don't want to see it
S4: going back to an assistant minister level or something like that,
S4: which it was previously.
S2: We'll get back to that later, because that's an extremely
S2: important topic, especially given the backdrop against the recent finalisation
S2: of the government's response to the Disability Royal Commission and
S2: all the discussions there and all that sort of thing.
S2: But before we get to that, Ross, I'd love to
S2: just focus on the changes to the NDIS in particular,
S2: in case people aren't aware, there have been quite a
S2: few reforms of late. So what are the major things
S2: that you think and after thinks perhaps are the most
S2: important things for people to know about in regards to
S2: those reforms, and perhaps how they will affect people's daily lives?
S4: Mm. Well, right at the moment, the major one that
S4: is coming through hasn't come into operation yet but should
S4: be in. I don't have a date. We're still waiting
S4: to hear when that is, but probably by the end
S4: of this month or early into October. And that is
S4: in terms of what supports people can utilise as part
S4: of their plan. I think there was a fair bit
S4: of media coverage of that. We certainly put out a
S4: position on that as well, in looking at lists of
S4: what's in and what's out in terms of supports for
S4: people that are participants within the scheme. We think there
S4: needs to be a lot more work done on that.
S4: We believe that there should be a principles based approach
S4: rather than just a list of in and out. The
S4: government says it has other legal advice that requires it
S4: to do that, and that's why the legislation is that way.
S4: That's backed up from what the Ndia, the agencies telling
S4: us as well. However, we still think there's room for
S4: a principles based approach on what's in and out, rather
S4: than just a straight listing of items that are in
S4: and out. We think that that still will then allow
S4: for choice and control, and it will also take into
S4: account what a person with disability or disabilities requires, which,
S4: as we know, every individual with disability is different to
S4: another one, and we need to make sure that those
S4: supports are provided and continue to be provided. But I
S4: need to give assurance to your listeners at the moment.
S4: There's no change at this stage to any of that
S4: that will come into effect later, and it will mainly
S4: come into effect, particularly for any of the changes for
S4: those that are having a plan review as that comes up,
S4: then there will be changes made, but until then there
S4: won't be. Now that said, those lists of supports of
S4: what's in and what's out will come into effect by
S4: next month, and it will be important for everyone to
S4: be aware of what they can still continue to maintain
S4: under their plan and what may not be able to
S4: be obtained. And if there's a need to try and
S4: get an exemption on that, well, that's what would then
S4: need to take place.
S2: Let's have a little bit of a broader chat now
S2: about things like the importance of continued support for people
S2: with a disability, with that minister being in cabinet, for example,
S2: with the Disability Royal Commission's recommendation to implement a minister
S2: for disability, not just a minister for the NDIS in particular,
S2: but a little bit more of a broad ranging role.
S2: But against that sort of backdrop, what are your beliefs
S2: and those beliefs about what the best situation is going forward?
S4: Well, thanks, Sam. And you mentioned about the royal Commission,
S4: I think its recommendation 5.6, actually indicated that we should
S4: have a minister for disability Inclusion and Equity and also
S4: a department for that. We're strong supporters after, and our
S4: members are strong supporters of that recommendation, and we put
S4: that forward in our response to the Disability Royal Commission recommendations.
S4: We started that back in December. We came out with
S4: a complete response to the 222 recommendations. And then we
S4: further outlined in February this year what we thought were
S4: important recommendations that needed to be picked up over the
S4: course of this year and into early next year. And
S4: one of those was exactly that recommendation for a minister
S4: to be appointed in that role. Unfortunately, with the government
S4: in its response, which, you know, I think it was
S4: pretty well documented and we certainly said the same thing
S4: was fairly lacklustre. We don't believe that the recommendations that
S4: should have been picked up were even looked at. Most
S4: of the things were batted down the road for consideration later.
S4: There are only a small number 13 recommendations that were
S4: adopted at all, and even in that case, we still
S4: didn't get any timeline on when they will come into
S4: effect or force or what they were going to do
S4: with those. So we think there's a lot of work
S4: that we all need to do as a community to
S4: keep moving those recommendations forward. We would like to see
S4: the one with the new minister roll in there. The
S4: government's actual response to that was that it noted that recommendation. Sam,
S4: in noting a recommendation by government from a royal commission,
S4: that means nothing will happen. No.
S2: That's right.
S4: So yeah, we're very disappointed with that. We think now, though,
S4: there's an opportunity, there's a watershed moment with Bill announcing
S4: his retirement from politics that that then opens that up
S4: for the government to do a review of that. And
S4: we'd encourage the Prime Minister to show leadership in that respect,
S4: and for the Prime Minister and the caucus and cabinet
S4: to look at truly making a keen difference to people
S4: with disability. By relooking at that recommendation, which was adopted
S4: from all of the commissioners on the Royal Commission, it
S4: wasn't a subgroup. It was a recommendation from the full commission.
S4: We think that should be enacted.
S2: On that topic, Ros, we have had response from people
S2: with Disability Australia at the time following the result, where
S2: only 13 of the recommendations were fully committed to. And
S2: it's pretty widely agreed that it is, as you've said,
S2: quite disappointing and all that sort of thing. But there is,
S2: as you've also said, a lot of opportunity for things
S2: to improve and for people with disabilities to have their
S2: voices heard on a much grander scale, and putting that
S2: into practice in quite a few more official channels, such
S2: as that Minister for disability and a department that is
S2: devoted to improving the lives of people with disabilities. So
S2: first and foremost, what are your most immediate hopes for
S2: improvement in that sector going forward with this uncertainty? But also,
S2: as you've said, opportunity for great change and great improvement
S2: for the lives of people with disabilities.
S4: Look, we're pretty positive that we can get a minister
S4: through someone who is going to be equally as passionate
S4: as Bill in terms of pushing forward for changes and
S4: improvements for the lives of people with disability and and
S4: the supports for those that require them. We think, as
S4: I said, that it is an opportunity right now with
S4: the change with Bill retiring, that the government can now
S4: have another relook at everything. And I won't get into
S4: the politics of all of that. But we think that
S4: the Prime Minister does need to show that leadership. We
S4: think it's a good chance for the Prime Minister to
S4: step up, take that on and lead with the caucus
S4: cabinet to make sure that we get the right person
S4: in there. I think the role that we spoke about
S4: would be great if the government would have a relook
S4: at that, and we'd certainly encourage them to do that
S4: and look at that recommendation from the Disability Royal Commission
S4: in its totality. And the fact is that, you know,
S4: 18 or so per cent of people within Australia are
S4: people with disability. That's a fair size of the population
S4: that deserves to have the respect, that deserves to have
S4: an appropriate recognition in terms of ministerial responsibility at a
S4: wider scope than where we have it at the moment,
S4: where it's mainly just focused predominantly on the NDIS, which
S4: is important, but it's only one element of the supports
S4: and the requirements of people with disability need, as we
S4: know and your listeners know, not everybody with disability is
S4: a participant in the NDIS. So what are the wider
S4: things for inclusion and encouraging diversity within our culture and
S4: our society? We need that to be led by the
S4: federal government. The other key ones that we mentioned are
S4: coming out of all the changes that are happening with
S4: the NDIS. And a key one for everybody with disability
S4: is really looking at getting embedded those foundational supports that
S4: are required across all states and territories. That's a key
S4: one that's going to take some time to deliver on.
S4: It now looks like the states and territories are on
S4: board with doing that. That's great. Our role is, of course,
S4: to make sure that we get appropriate supports, provided that
S4: it is a real change that happens because as we saw,
S4: there was a lot of when the NDIS came in,
S4: there was a lot of desertion of providing supports and
S4: services right across all the states and territories. So we
S4: want to make sure that what we get in now
S4: under foundational supports, do deliver on the promises that have
S4: been made.
S2: Against that background of uncertainty. People might be interested in
S2: finding out a little bit more about what Afto does
S2: and the member organizations. So for people to find out
S2: a little bit more about Afto and the organizations that
S2: sit under the Afto umbrella, what's the best way for
S2: people to maybe head along to your website and find
S2: out a little bit more and get a bit more
S2: information about where they can go and who they can
S2: write letters to in terms of government, or get active
S2: that way, perhaps.
S4: Yes, Sam, certainly the best place is to have a
S4: look at our website in that you can also find
S4: out about our policy statements, our submissions. Uh, we do
S4: a lot of work in the space. Some of it
S4: is unknown, probably to a lot of your listeners, because
S4: we're not working at that individual level. So it's really,
S4: I think, interesting for people to get a handle on. Well,
S4: what are the wider advocacy organizations do at a national level?
S4: And we have quite a number of our members are
S4: also national peaks in their own right, representing disability specific communities.
S4: So it's probably a good idea for your listeners to
S4: jump along to our website, which is WW dot o
S4: f d o.org dot o u, and find out a
S4: bit more about what we've been doing and continue to
S4: do on behalf of people with disability right across the country.
S2: That was Ross Joyce, the CEO of the Australian Federation
S2: of Disability Organisations. On the Sam Colley and you're listening
S2: to Talking Vision on Vision Australia Radio, associated stations of
S2: Reading Radio and the Community Radio Network. I hope you
S2: enjoyed that conversation there with Ross Joyce from after both
S2: these interviews. Today will be They are viable as interview
S2: highlights with extended content in both, so make sure to
S2: check out the interview highlights feed in your favorite podcast
S2: platform or through the Vision Australia library over the coming days.
S2: And now, coming up next, I speak with Adrian Borg
S2: from the National Gallery of Australia. I started by asking
S2: Adrian to tell us a little bit more about the
S2: monthly Art by description program.
S3: I certainly can, and yeah, I would like to give
S3: a shout out to, um, a lot of the people
S3: who participate or come along to Art by description each month, uh,
S3: who live in rural Victoria. We have some really wonderful participants,
S3: but the Art by description is a program that is
S3: delivered by the National Gallery of Australia each month. Uh,
S3: it's on a Friday afternoon, and we run this program
S3: at 2 p.m. in the afternoon, and that's mostly so
S3: that we can draw in every state and territory across Australia.
S3: So that's why it's at kind of quite odd time.
S3: And yeah, I suppose that's all I'm going to say.
S3: It's like an hour long program each month. And it
S3: has this really strong focus on the visual arts and
S3: the collection of the National Gallery of Australia in Canberra.
S2: Okay. And how long has art by description been running for?
S2: Is there perhaps a particular story of how it came about?
S3: There is a long story, I think, since like the 1970s,
S3: but the program as it is now is more recent.
S3: And it wasn't until maybe 2019 that we began delivering
S3: an on site program each month as part of a
S3: sort of an access to Art weekend, so that we
S3: could make the exhibitions and collection available to anybody. And
S3: then during Covid, it was just like, very interesting as
S3: I began to discuss with access audiences during Covid what
S3: we could possibly do and how we could meet up
S3: with zoom. And you probably remember, Sam, how we had
S3: not we didn't have a lot of confidence with zoom
S3: when we first went into the first lockdown.
S2: Very commonly shared experience that one.
S3: Yes, totally. And so when the people who I'd been
S3: working with here at the gallery, when they said to me, like, Adrian,
S3: what are you going to do for us during lockdown,
S3: I kind of looked at them and I was just like,
S3: I have no idea what am I going to do
S3: for you? And so really they said, well, this is
S3: what you're going to do. Okay. You know, we're going
S3: to meet online and you're going to describe the works
S3: of art. And we, I suppose, began to I really
S3: worked with the same group of people almost every week,
S3: really regularly during lockdown. We only had two lockdowns here
S3: in the Act, and after the second lockdown was finished
S3: in 2022, I really thought this is not a program
S3: I'm prepared to give up. And so we thought, well,
S3: let's have a national Art by description program each month
S3: and let's just make our skills had just like really developed.
S3: And we felt a lot of confidence both online and
S3: also with audio description. And we felt that our audience
S3: had given us kind of so much advice and provided
S3: so much time for us to learn that it was
S3: just something that we really needed to continue and also
S3: repay and really art by description online. We still are
S3: consulting and learning from the people who participate all the time.
S3: It's been a really joyful experience for us.
S2: You've mentioned that you've been running the program for five
S2: years now. It's a five year birthday that's quite auspicious.
S2: That's also a marker of how successful it's been, and
S2: the feedback that you've gotten from the participants about how
S2: much they enjoy it and how much they enjoy the
S2: format of the hour long exhibitions that you do run.
S2: Is that still in a sort of a hybrid format,
S2: or is it more geared towards people coming in in
S2: person and accessing the art that way, or is it
S2: much more online these days? What sort of been the
S2: split between the two?
S3: Well, actually the split is pretty 50 over 50, I suppose.
S3: On site we can allow people to touch things. We
S3: can do touch tours, we can make other programs at
S3: the gallery accessible through audio description. But online, the way
S3: that we, I suppose, try and prevent listener fatigue online
S3: is we always include a couple of different modes. So
S3: we have multiple voices, a bit like you and I
S3: chatting now, but we also include a piece of music.
S3: We have really kind of regular breaks throughout the, you know,
S3: 45 minutes to an hour. And we also include poetry.
S2: Wow. Okay. That's amazing. I'm really keen to hear about
S2: all the ways in which the art is made accessible
S2: for people who are blind or have low vision. That
S2: addition of audio description is no doubt a fantastic aspect
S2: of that. But how do people interact with the art
S2: pieces when they don't have that visual component? You know,
S2: a lot of people out there may be thinking, how
S2: do you interact with a work of art, with a landscape,
S2: with a portrait or things like that? With all of
S2: these accessible features? And obviously over the past five years,
S2: a lot of people have really embraced this program that
S2: you are running art by description.
S3: You're forcing me to be really positive and that I
S3: really thank you for that, Sam. That's no problem. We
S3: try wherever possible to provide this kind of, like, in-person
S3: support for people. And I suppose that's what I'm we're
S3: kind of like a human intervention in a way. We're
S3: like an accessible intervention.
S2: Well, that's it. And helping people pass those barriers past
S2: those obstacles. We don't like to focus on the barriers
S2: and the obstacles. We like to focus on what can
S2: be done and what people can experience, and the ways
S2: that these art pieces are made more accessible. And other
S2: people can be their eyes and talk them through the
S2: pieces and all that sort of thing. So you've mentioned
S2: the touch tours and tactile elements of the exhibition, so
S2: that's also wonderful. But is there a particular way, Adrienne,
S2: that you describe the pieces you give, the layout of
S2: the work in particular? What's the sort of situation there?
S3: I think that when we describe a work of art,
S3: the thing that we really stick to is a kind
S3: of a structure.
S2: Yes.
S3: And that's.
S2: Important.
S3: A work of art from the broadest overview of the work,
S3: including the size. Yeah. And then we narrow down to
S3: the kind of the smaller details.
S2: And, Adrienne, for visitors to the National Gallery of Australia
S2: who are blind or have low vision, either attending art
S2: by description or the range of other exhibitions, what are
S2: some of the ways in which you've been able to
S2: make the gallery itself accessible?
S3: Sam, what I really want to say for people who
S3: can visit the National Gallery and maybe participate in art
S3: by description, on site here, or come to an exhibition,
S3: is that we always make sure that the labels are
S3: available in a large text booklet, and that's usually just
S3: in a like a little box on the wall as
S3: you enter into the exhibition. We have a number of
S3: copies available, and so people can pick those up and
S3: take them around the exhibition with them so that they
S3: I don't have to feel self-conscious when they are looking
S3: at the label that, you know, they're getting too close,
S3: and then the security guard is going to say something
S3: to them, or they're in the way of other visitors.
S3: We also have audio tours, and often that audio tool
S3: can even be downloaded before you come to the gallery.
S3: So you might actually kind of listen to it beforehand
S3: to help you kind of orient yourself and get a
S3: sense of the context for the show. And then if
S3: you come in person, we always take our iPads along
S3: on the tours as well. And so we sit in
S3: front of the works of art so people are comfortable,
S3: and then we can take a photograph with the iPad,
S3: and then people can expand the image in their, you know,
S3: while they're holding it. And sometimes that really helps to
S3: see what might be as just a tiny detail in
S3: a work of art as well.
S2: And Adrian, it is probably worth mentioning again here that
S2: it is a monthly program. So if people are hearing
S2: this after the 13th and they're thinking, oh damn, I
S2: missed out. I didn't get along to the program on
S2: the 13th of September. There are many more opportunities coming
S2: up for people to get involved and head along. So Adrian,
S2: with that in mind, for all of those people who
S2: are probably interested in providing their feedback and also finding
S2: out a little bit more about art by description, are
S2: you able to direct people to quite a few contact
S2: details for them to do that?
S3: Yes, of course Sam. So we have an access email,
S3: and that is probably one of the easiest ways for
S3: people to contact us. So we have a small access team.
S3: There are three of us in the team who have
S3: regular roles. And then there are we have a larger
S3: group of artists, educators who can also audio describe. But
S3: the best thing would for people to do would be
S3: to email access. That's a double C e double S
S3: access at N.g.a. That's National Gallery of Australia. NASA.gov for government.
S3: A few people were also very welcome to call me directly.
S3: And that would be like on O2 for Canberra. And
S3: then 62406632.
S2: Okay wonderful. And just repeating that email that's access at nagavara.
S2: And the phone number 026240. 6632. Or if you'd like
S2: to head along to their website that's Njegovo Noaa.gov dot edu.
S3: Oh thank you Sam. And I was just wondering, do
S3: you think I could trouble you just to say one
S3: more thing?
S2: No problem at all.
S3: Oh, thank you. I suppose I wanted to say that
S3: the program is always on the second Friday of the month.
S3: So we have this really regular scheduling. So it will be,
S3: as we said, the 13th of September. And then it
S3: will be on the 11th of October. So that's already
S3: kind of set. And those are already promoted on our website.
S3: But the other thing I'd like to say is that
S3: we always accompany the presentation with a PowerPoint. And for
S3: people who are blind, it helps us to describe in
S3: the moment, because I think one of the things that
S3: people enjoy most about art by description online is the
S3: fact that it's live, but also sometimes people with low vision,
S3: when the image is there and you're describing it, sometimes
S3: people say, you know, I really couldn't see what those
S3: brush strokes were. But now that you've said it's a
S3: little girl I know and now I can see it.
S3: So I think that that's a kind of an interesting
S3: element to the program. And the other thing that I
S3: wanted to say is on the 13th, we're focusing on
S3: an artist called Yoani Scarce. She's a First Nations artist
S3: from South Australia and she makes glass sculptures, and she
S3: was born in Woomera in South Australia. And her work
S3: is totally concerned with her family history. And I suppose
S3: the impact of all those experiments that occurred in the
S3: desert on First Nations people. The artist herself will be
S3: working with us to deliver this art by description. So
S3: that's a fairly unique opportunity as well.
S2: That's a super unique opportunity. I'm sure a lot of
S2: people will be very interested to interact with that and
S2: head along, so look forward to seeing how that goes.
S2: I've been speaking today with Adrian Bogue from the National
S2: Gallery of Australia, talking to me today about the Art
S2: by description monthly series available both online and in person
S2: at the National Gallery. And that's all the time we
S2: have for today. You've been listening to Talking Vision. Talking
S2: vision is a Vision Australia radio production. Thanks to all
S2: involved with putting the show together every week. And remember,
S2: we love hearing from you. So please get in touch
S2: any time on our email at Talking Vision. At Vision australia.org.
S2: That's talking vision all one word at Vision australia.org. But
S2: until next week it's Sam Colley saying bye for now.
S1: You can contact Vision Australia by phoning us anytime during
S1: business hours on 1300 847 406. That's one (300) 847-4106 or by visiting
S1: Vision australia.org. That's Vision australia.org.