S1: Nothing's off limits. It's off limits, bringing together experts and
S1: people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love
S1: to avoid but absolutely need to talk about. Made with
S1: the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS Information Linkages
S1: Capability Building Grant Building Grant.
S2: Hello and welcome to our second episode of our series
S2: where nothing is off limits. My name is Tess and
S2: together with my co-host Polly over the next 10 episodes,
S2: will be exploring some of those topics which we might
S2: usually consider off limits and discussing them openly, honestly through
S2: that specific lens of blindness and location.
S3: In this episode, we are talking about confidence and safety
S3: through body language and movement, what it feels like navigating
S3: different physical and social environments with new blind or have
S3: low vision. And we're going to delve into some strategies,
S3: tips and technology solutions out there, which can really help
S3: you interact with people and places with confidence and safety.
S3: Whilst we were researching for the series. We heard from
S3: some of you about how being blind or having low
S3: vision can impact how confident you feel getting out and
S3: about and connecting with people. And we also heard concerns
S3: about how to stay safe and reduce actual and perceived vulnerability.
S3: What was really interesting was that these questions were not
S3: only in relation to more typical orientation and mobility skills,
S3: but also around how to understand and master the elusive
S3: arts of body language. How to hold a move your
S3: body in a way that accurately expresses your intent. Body
S3: language or non-verbal communication could encompass facial expressions, posture, gestures,
S3: points of contact, physical proximity and even breathing. And I
S3: find out about the so-called seven percent rule, which says
S3: when we're communicating, seven percent of what is communicated is
S3: via what is said. 38 percent is via tone of voice,
S3: and the majority 55 percent is via body language text
S3: that seems an extraordinarily high percentage. Does that
S2: surprise you? Well, I'm not sure that it does poorly
S2: if you're not used to communicating in other ways. I
S2: think people do find it very easy to communicate through
S2: body language. But of course, that's not so easy if
S2: you're blind or have low vision because you don't necessarily
S2: know how somebody feels like. They might say that they're comfortable,
S2: or they might say that you should feel safe with them,
S2: but their body language might be saying something else.
S3: That's right, and numerous messaging tells us that confident body
S3: language is a key component of personal safety. And so testing,
S3: I asked you, how safe do you feel when you
S3: are out on your own? Oh, we got some really
S3: interesting answers.
S1: Nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly Polly. How safe
S1: do you feel when you're on your own?
S4: I'm very lucky. I'm six foot four and have long,
S4: gangly limbs, so I don't feel physically threatened very often.
S4: I've only ever been run over once, and that was
S4: by somebody on a bicycle who didn't know his lights
S4: on at night. That hurt.
S5: Mostly, I feel very safe as an independent traveller. I've
S5: got the tools I need to ensure that I remain
S5: safe when I travel.
S1: I feel quite safe. I don't really have too many concerns.
S1: Not for me personally. I've got enough vision that I
S1: tend to do. I can.
S2: I feel pretty safe on my own. Generally speaking, always aware.
S2: But I, you know, make sure that I keep my
S2: safety top of mind, but I don't feel unsafe.
S6: I feel safe when I'm on my own, depending on
S6: where I am, when I'm on my own.
S7: I feel relatively okay because I have a dog God,
S7: and my dog does alert me to, you know, strangers
S7: and odd sort of noises and things.
S3: I've never actually found this challenging. I actually really like
S3: my own company. I spend a lot of
S2: time on my own. The only time this would be
S2: challenging would be back to the mobility one. When I
S2: when I'm lost somewhere, I'm finding it really challenging to
S2: find my way somewhere or if I'm in a new environment,
S2: can sometimes feel really overwhelming and it can feel a
S2: bit unsafe.
S1: You're listening to nothing's off limits with TESS and poorly
S1: produced by Vision Australia radio.
S2: I'd now like to welcome our first guest for this episode,
S2: who has some useful insights about staying safe in the home.
S2: Natalie Wade is the founder and principal lawyer at Equality
S2: Lawyers ACM, which is relatively unique in Australia, being set
S2: up by people with disabilities for people with disabilities. And Natalie,
S2: thank you for being here. It's wonderful to chat, to
S2: say
S5: thank you for having me. Probably interests and pleasure to
S5: be here.
S2: Have you noticed a sense of vulnerability around people being
S2: safe in their homes?
S5: Certainly in the high instalment, we often associate and pain
S5: and on issues that the safest place a person can
S5: make is at home. But we know, and particularly in
S5: the last year or sorry, in Australia, we've been having
S5: a very serious conversation within the. It's not an ingenuity
S5: about what is it to be safe at home and
S5: if we die to recycle home, what do we do?
S2: What particular legal rights should people be
S5: aware of in Australia? There are a number of laws
S5: that protect our people and to be safe at home
S5: and generally the criminal law. Of course, if if someone
S5: breaks into your house, then you should absolutely retain the
S5: police and get someone out there to sort that out.
S5: If you are at home and if your family members
S5: is abusive to you, then you have specific laws that
S5: address family and domestic violence. But what is unique for
S5: people with disabilities from living in their homes is often
S5: there are other people in their home that provide them
S5: with support and care that they need to get about
S5: their everyday life and then can present some risk and
S5: require other rules to protect them in those situations. So
S5: for people who are receiving the NDIS, the National Disability
S5: Insurance Scheme, there are specific laws that regulate the people
S5: of the country to provide care in the home. And
S5: if those people do something bad that may be violent,
S5: it may be abusive and it may simply be disrespectful.
S5: And not acknowledging your right at home can make choices
S5: to be safe and comfortable, then people with disabilities are
S5: able to reach out to the National Disability Insurance Scheme.
S5: Quality and Safeguards Commission Quality and Safeguards Commission is there
S5: to ensure that people who provide support in the home
S5: and can people with disabilities steady and safe people to
S5: be around?
S2: What are some other proactive steps that people can take
S2: to stay safe in their
S5: homes, damaged in a particular and groundbreaking? If are observing
S5: a disability and you have concerns about how to be safe?
S5: I think it's really important for you to think about
S5: how are you on set? What are the risks that
S5: are facing you and how can you manage those? So
S5: for people who are blind or how do I envision
S5: them to be something as simple as needing to know
S5: who is in the front door sort? So having a
S5: system in place using assistive technology or being very old school,
S5: such as an intercom system where the person at the
S5: front door can tell you that the lady who they
S5: are as opposed to simply ringing a doorbell if they
S5: direct your outdoor barriers and then having an intercom system
S5: where you're able to speak to the person who is
S5: at the front door and can be really valuable over
S5: three hours. And if you had people in your home
S5: that did there in a professional capacity, for example, support
S5: workers or allied health professionals visit you on a regular basis,
S5: you should have a really clear set of ground rules
S5: about what you need to make sure that you feel
S5: safe in the home. Again, this is to me very
S5: unique to your only experience experiencing disability, and it may
S5: not be a set of ground rules, but I saw
S5: it in person Ron Howard or a minor on the
S5: set of ground rules and then other people that are
S5: blind and vision impairments would have it can be as
S5: urinated to you as you need it to be, and
S5: that a set of problems might include as clothes announce
S5: yourself when you walk into the room. So say your
S5: name when you come into any room, the bedroom, the
S5: bathroom in the front door, whatever it may be that
S5: you don't feel comfortable with people being in a certain
S5: space with you. You know, perhaps I don't want to
S5: sound like a public health officer, but I would probably
S5: prefer a range of you, and no hands would probably
S5: be concerned because you find that to be overwhelming or
S5: you find it to be instructive to how you get around.
S5: And so you should make it really clear to those
S5: who work with you as to what you need to know.
S5: And then changing this on the ground can be communicated
S5: in a very old school fashion, writing, you know, in
S5: paper and pen. You lied to me. Not inclined to
S5: me cry that in 1998, and you relied on me
S5: a little bit more modern, you could imagine a story
S5: to the paper that are responsible for your care, what
S5: you're you to have it ready on my rostering system
S5: that you use electronically to manage your staff so that
S5: they are rare when they're working with you. What is required, sir?
S5: I think it probably speaks a little bit to regular visitors.
S5: And also people to your mind of its great friends
S5: in the heart and the third group of people that
S5: you might want to consider. How is your family and
S5: their loved ones? Now, I would love to say that
S5: they don't need 80 years my age, and they are
S5: all magical and older. I mean, enjoy. Absolutely. Sure. Then
S5: that is, for the most part, very true. But I
S5: want to acknowledge that there are people with disabilities, disproportionately
S5: their friends, family and domestic violence. And I really rely
S5: on those people to know that if you are in
S5: that situation, if you are facing violence, abuse or neglect
S5: at home, then I would strongly encourage you to reach
S5: out to a trusted friend or someone outside of the
S5: home to call a domestic violence or family violence hotline
S5: and really make sure that you have the support of
S5: others to deal with that and that you know that
S5: you are not alone.
S3: What's particularly exciting is that Natalie has agreed to come
S3: back and expand on some of the topics we talked
S3: about just touched on there around those relationships in the home,
S3: with your family and with your carers. So I'm really
S3: looking forward to getting into some more details about that
S3: with you. Then, Natalie, thank you so much.
S5: My absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
S1: If this program has brought up any issues for you,
S1: please contact Lifeline on 13, 11, 14 or online at
S1: Lifeline dot org dot Donahue. The suicide call back service
S1: is one 300 six five nine four six seven or
S1: online at Suicide Call Back Service dot org. Today you
S1: there's beyondblue 1300 double two four six three six and
S1: online and beyond blue dot org.
S6: Today you.
S1: You're listening to Nothing's Off Limits with Tess and Polly.
S1: Did you know Vision Australia's orientation and mobility specialists can
S1: support you to move around safely and confidently? For more information,
S1: go to Vision Australia dot org or call us on
S1: one 300 eight four seven four W6 Vision Australia Blindness
S1: Low Vision Opportunity.
S2: Our next guest is Namoi. Malcolm Namoi is Vision Australia's
S2: emotional and social support program supervisor. He is also an
S2: advocate of the importance of understanding and using body language
S2: and other non explicit, subtle social clues as a way
S2: to connect. And he's a keen student in understanding and
S2: using your voice and your body to engage with confidence.
S2: Namoi Thanks for being here.
S6: My pleasure and thanks for having me.
S2: In researching for this episode, we heard listeners talk about
S2: how losing their sight can lead to a loss of
S2: confidence and an increase in self-consciousness. Is this something you've
S2: experienced now?
S6: I did experience it when I originally lost my sight
S6: back in 1998 as someone who was at that time
S6: 18 years old trying to find himself as an adult.
S6: So I did have that whole sense of what is
S6: my body doing in space? How am I being perceived
S6: by those around me and how do I want to
S6: be perceived?
S2: How did you regain that confidence?
S6: Part of regaining that confidence was actually using my body,
S6: so I, before I lost my sight, was practising martial arts,
S6: and I went back to martial arts after I lost
S6: my sight. And it really forced me to continue to
S6: use and test my body to continue to use and
S6: test my balance by jumping my rolling, my kicking and punching.
S6: I was very physically active, and that really helped me
S6: to understand myself relative to the space around me. It
S6: also helps me to feel confident in my movement.
S2: That's a fantastic way of dealing with that. I think
S2: so many people have all sorts of creative ways of
S2: getting that confidence back and getting that at confidence, particularly
S2: in their body. We did some surveys, and one listener
S2: shared that as their design had deteriorated, they had begun
S2: to feel more self-conscious. Now just read this. I worried
S2: that people would see a person who was blind when
S2: I walked by and not the capable person I know
S2: I am normally. What strategies would you suggest for for
S2: coping with those fears of the impression that we make?
S6: Because you're blind, it doesn't make you any less confident.
S6: I don't see separating the two. You're still a person,
S6: you just happened to be blind. So how does a
S6: person move through their environment with confidence? How do they
S6: predict confidence when moving through their environment? Well, part of
S6: that is about looking ahead, looking forward. Even when you
S6: feel a lost, you still look forward, you still walk
S6: with a purpose. Part of that is also about using
S6: your mobility aids and your skills when traveling, whether it's
S6: making sure that you're moving in step with your cane
S6: or whether it's trying to stay relaxed. And at least
S6: if you're using a service dog, or if you're someone
S6: who has low vision and is using your hat or
S6: your glasses. It's just about wearing those things and really
S6: feeling like you're using all of your aids and equipment
S6: to your advantage. That's really where confidence comes from. Confidence
S6: comes from inside first. So if you're telling yourself that
S6: you're not confident in what you're doing, then people around
S6: you are going to think that you're not confident in
S6: what you're doing. Let's be clear, as a person with
S6: no vision myself, there are accidents. There are times when
S6: I apologize to Poles. There are times when I misstep
S6: and stumble. There are times when my step in front
S6: of a car that is just about to accelerate, so
S6: I have to quickly snap back. These things are things
S6: that happen to sighted people, to people who are fully sighted,
S6: fully able bodied. They might be looking down at their
S6: phone rather than looking at the lights, which might cause
S6: them to step in front of a vehicle. Sighted people
S6: bump into other people or bump into poles. They just
S6: don't apologize when they do so. People aren't necessarily watching
S6: me do my thing, and if they are, well, that's
S6: just because I look good.
S3: That's great. And I should disclose as a sighted person,
S3: that's absolutely right. Whether you're glued to your phone or
S3: just in a daydream, you walk in to things, you
S3: stumble into people and polls, Nimoy as well. And I
S3: remember I'm going to a dinner once and sitting next
S3: to a young woman who was blind, and I reached
S3: across the table and managed to knock over a jug
S3: of water that went all over the kind of the
S3: guest of honor. And after, you know, I apologized and
S3: got all flustered when I sat down, she said. I'm
S3: so relieved to hear that sighted people
S2: do that as well. We absolutely terrible spilling wines the worst,
S2: at least. Definitely the stains. And I'm with you. I
S2: apologize falls as well. It sounds very much like those
S2: basic orientation or ability skills that we, I suppose when
S2: we lose our vision, we learn. We learned fairly quickly.
S2: It sounds like those basic skills are so very important.
S2: Is that right?
S6: That's absolutely right. I think that practice doesn't make perfect.
S6: It just makes better. So the more that you are
S6: willing to use your orientation and mobility skills better off
S6: you will be when
S2: you're speaking with people, particularly perhaps for the first time.
S2: How do you give that right vibe so that so
S2: that you can interact on your own terms and remain
S2: in control of your body, so not get dragged across
S2: the road?
S6: We have well-meaning people in the world, and those well-meaning
S6: people will see me as a person with a disability
S6: and think that he must need help. He must need saving.
S6: Despite my best efforts to move with confidence, to move
S6: with grace, to move with purpose, people may still feel
S6: like they need to be my hero. So for me,
S6: it's less about stopping people from doing it and being
S6: conscious and ready to react when people do grab me.
S6: When people do enter my space unwanted. One of the
S6: techniques that I tend to use is simply to stop.
S6: And it doesn't matter where I am. If someone enters
S6: my space, if they reach in and they grab me.
S6: I just stop. I stop and I turn my full
S6: attention on them. I will verbally ask them to let
S6: me go. I'm verbally ask them to remove themselves from me.
S6: I will verbally let them know that I'm confident that
S6: I am in control. I know what I'm doing if
S6: they can't speak English or if they don't understand me.
S6: The simple fact that I have stopped is enough to
S6: alert them that what they're doing is unwanted. And if
S6: I need to our physically remove their hand from my
S6: person or from my backpack or from my pain, and
S6: they will get the point that I'm not going with them.
S6: I use this technique even when I'm boarding a train
S6: or getting off of a train or bus. If one
S6: foot's on the platform and the other foot's on the train,
S6: I will just stop and I won't move until they
S6: let me go. And I will use verbal cues, but
S6: I also use that non-verbal. I'm not moving until you
S6: release me to. And most people get the hint fairly quickly.
S3: Nimoy, thank you so much. Some really amazing strategies and
S3: insights you've got there around how to maintain that physical
S3: agency and confidence. Thank you so much for sharing. We
S3: could talk for much longer, but thank you for coming on.
S6: My pleasure. Thanks for listening.
S3: Our final guest is Darren Moyle Difference in Orientation and
S3: mobility specialist at Vision Australia. Darren, thank you so much
S3: for joining us.
S8: Now, Ari, it's good to be here. Can you
S3: maybe start by telling us what's an orientation to mobility
S3: or an especialistas specialist does and why you're so passionate
S3: about it as a career?
S8: Orientation mobility, in a sense, is quite broad, but basically,
S8: if you to look at any of the textbooks would
S8: say it's teaching, someone who is blind has a vision
S8: to get from point A to point B safely and effectively.
S8: But really, when people ask me what my job is,
S8: I explain to people that I teach people who are
S8: blind have a vision to solve everyday problems so they
S8: can navigate their world and participate in their community or
S8: participate in activities as they would wish to leave that
S8: loss that they choose. And being able to move around
S8: your world is a key component of that. Whether it's
S8: sort of a physical setting or even navigate social settings
S8: gives people the freedom to be able to head out
S8: and catch up with friends or join local sporting clubs,
S8: or be able to attain work and move around the
S8: place and be a confident traveler.
S3: Darren, you've kindly agreed to share some strategies that can
S3: help in tackling some of the kind of the typically
S3: tricky and daunting scenarios. And I guess I'm thinking in
S3: particular about navigating completely new environments or using public transport
S3: and meeting up at cafes and bars and restaurants.
S8: You know, there are a lot of challenges around that.
S8: So a big part of that would be that having
S8: the mobility skills, so you know, we probably are familiar with,
S8: you know, people who use mobility. I like a long
S8: cane or an ID cane, as well as electronic aids
S8: that might help people travel so that use sonar or
S8: other technology that we use on our on our smartphone,
S8: which we'll get into later. But a lot of the
S8: work that we do is to be able to provide
S8: people with skills so they can navigate these sort of
S8: complex areas. So when you're waiting for a bus and
S8: you have three different bus routes to go through the
S8: one stop, how do you have the skills to ask
S8: the driver, is this the correct bus? Can I use
S8: that for a talk? There's an app or some sort
S8: of technology to know, Is this my bus? So I'm
S8: not making it, so I'm not getting on the wrong
S8: one and heading off the opposite direction, heading into cafes
S8: and things that those kind of indoor environments and whether
S8: it's a cafe or a classroom at a school or
S8: a new lecture theatre teaching people to be able to
S8: walk into that space and trying to grab some information
S8: immediately about it. You know, how big is the room,
S8: whether we're using our vision, our remaining vision as a
S8: sense to be able to get that information or, you know,
S8: using sound echolocation so that the sound that you know,
S8: people who are blind to have a vision, some people
S8: have the ability, said he sounds bounce off walls and
S8: that gives gives an accurate description of kind of how
S8: big the room might be or how dense it might
S8: be with furniture. The way now to get this information
S8: at the start is really useful. And then also having
S8: the skills to be able to try and navigate that
S8: space and try and discover that area for yourself. So
S8: how big is it and what's the perimeter like? You
S8: know where the table's laid out in this cafe and
S8: where is the counter? Where do I order my coffee from?
S8: And once I've ordered my my latte with one sugar,
S8: where do I go and stand and collect the coffee? And.
S8: And sometimes sometimes that is where an orientation my mobility
S8: specialist might come in to provide that extra layer of
S8: information that sometimes is visual to be able to give
S8: people that little bit extra information that they might need
S8: to get, feel free and confident to walk into that
S8: space and know that they can. They know sort of
S8: the social cues and they know the social environment that
S8: they're walking into. Now I'm an orientation of my mobility specialist,
S8: but I also have low vision, so that's probably a
S8: big part of why I'm so passionate about the role
S8: as well, because I live it every day.
S3: I know you're really passionate about more high-tech options. I
S3: think you can introduce us to three apps which have
S3: really kind of revolutionized mobility for the community.
S8: One of my top picks of my favorite apps is
S8: an app called Microsoft Soundscape. What this is, this is
S8: an app that uses 3D audio. So if you're using
S8: bone conducting headphones so you have some headphones in your ears,
S8: imagine you going to a brand new place. You know
S8: you've gone to the Gold Coast for the weekend. Lovely.
S8: You could. Yeah, you can turn this app on walking
S8: with soundscape. With this three day directional sand, I can
S8: hear that there's an idea directly off to my left
S8: and I can hear that there's a McDonald's up ahead
S8: of me. I can hear about the names of the
S8: brains that I'm passing. So kind of provides a greater
S8: level of orientation so you can feel more confident navigating
S8: these spaces.
S3: Is there anything else out there? Maybe if you're kind
S3: of going on some public transport, I know that can
S3: be quite challenging.
S8: If you're an author and user next year. If you're
S8: an Android user, you could use an app called Transit.
S8: But essentially what this does at the bus stop your app,
S8: you can open it up and pinpoint your location using GPS.
S8: You can choose the bus stop you're standing at with
S8: voiceover as well, and you find you can get a
S8: call out of live information about how far away buses. So,
S8: for example, you might have united. Two three, three draw
S8: in two minutes is seven to seven doing four minutes
S8: and then the nine three nine during eight minutes. I
S8: know it's the third bus that I need to catch.
S8: Can I think
S3: you have one more for us
S8: down? There is another app and this is an app
S8: called Aara. This app is really great. I serve refrigerators.
S8: Get out of jail card. Kind of a way that
S8: you have access to some visual information from someone who's
S8: fully trained. They're sitting behind the computer in the USA
S8: so they can see your current location. And I can
S8: also see what you're saying. Of the camera so people
S8: can use this app to ask, I'm a bit disorientated.
S8: Can you show me where my nearest bus stop is
S8: or I'm in an airport and I need to work
S8: at where the check-in guides? And by simply opening the
S8: app and pressing the call button, someone's on the other line.
S8: And I can see I've used this in Sydney Airport
S8: before our agent brings up the interior map. Just, yep,
S8: keep going straight ahead. All this some signs on the left.
S8: In Japan, you find the left. There's a sign saying
S8: checking area straight ahead. Keep on going. So they can
S8: kind of give you this extra layer of visual information
S8: that in the past, you know, we just didn't have
S8: access to our which is a paid up. But also
S8: there's other options. You know, there's a free app called
S8: Be My Eyes is a similar thing where you're talking
S8: directly to volunteers. You also have the option of just
S8: using face time or using your smartphone camera and calling
S8: a friend and saying, Hey, you know, a bit lost.
S8: Can you tell me, is they're crossing me here? Or
S8: When is a taxi? Or can you read this document
S8: for me? So using technology and using cameras and things
S8: like that is making a huge difference.
S3: Darren, thank you so much. That was so interesting and
S3: some really helpful strategies as well. Thank you for joining us.
S8: All right, guys, it's a pleasure.
S2: Well, this is just the start of the conversation about
S2: staying safe inside and outside of your home. And if
S2: you want to find out more about the orientation and mobility,
S2: skills training or some of the amazing community groups that
S2: Nimoy runs. You can find that information on the Vision
S2: Australia website. Just go to Vision Australia dot org. That's
S2: Vision Australia dot org. And remember, you can also download
S2: this podcast from the Vision Australia website, this episode and
S2: previous episodes. The website also has some links to useful
S2: resources and information, including some of the apps that Darren mentioned.
S3: And next time we're going to be talking about mental health,
S3: but for now, thank you to all of our guests
S3: and thank you for joining us for the show where
S3: nothing's off limits.
S1: That was nothing's off limits. Made with the support of
S1: Vision Australia and the NDIS Information Linkages Capability Building grants,
S1: learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting
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