S1: From Vision Australia. This is talking vision. And now here's
S1: your host Sam Colley.
S2: Hello, everyone. It's great to be here with you. And
S2: for the next half hour we talk matters of blindness
S2: and low vision.
S3: If the deaf blind person is only getting half the message,
S3: they're going to have all of these problems, they're going
S3: to have misunderstandings, and they're neither going to be taken
S3: seriously nor understand important information that's being communicated to them.
S3: So I think it's really important to build this recognition that, hey,
S3: you know, deaf blind people have their own ways of signing,
S3: and if you do it correctly, suddenly they understand things
S3: and they can do things that otherwise are just, you know,
S3: not happening. Well.
S2: Welcome to the program. This week we're speaking with senior
S2: lecturer of linguistics at Monash University, Louisa Willoughby, who's catching
S2: up with me to talk all about tactile Auslan and
S2: a short course that Monash will be running later this
S2: year to upskill practitioners of Auslan in Australia to better
S2: serve the needs of the deafblind community. That interview is
S2: coming up very shortly, so make sure to stick around
S2: to hear more from Louisa. And then after my chat
S2: with Louisa, we hear from Powered Media's Emma myers, who
S2: spoke with Skye Kakoschke-moore, CEO of Children and Young People
S2: with disability, about what she hopes will be included in
S2: this year's federal budget. I hope you enjoy this week's
S2: episode of Talking Vision. Louisa Willoughby is a senior lecturer
S2: in linguistics at Monash University. Her work focuses on the
S2: intersecting areas of language and identity. Language policy and service
S2: provision for speakers of minority languages, particularly in health and
S2: education settings. She's here today to talk to me about
S2: tactile Auslan and a series of workshops and modules. Monash
S2: University will be running later this year as part of
S2: a short course to upskill Auslan interpreters to better service
S2: the deafblind community. Louisa, welcome to Talking Vision. Thank you
S2: very much for your time today.
S3: Thanks, Sam.
S2: Now, today we're here to talk a little bit about
S2: tactile Auslan, as well as some accredited training that's coming
S2: up in the pipeline over the next little while. But
S2: before we get into the details around the training, let's
S2: jump in to the details around tactile Auslan itself. So
S2: could you give us a bit of an overview of
S2: how tactile Auslan works?
S3: Yeah, sure. So tactile Auslan is a form of sign
S3: language used by people who are both deaf and blind,
S3: where they're putting their hands on top of the person
S3: who's signing and feeling what's being signed. But as you
S3: can imagine, that's not entirely foolproof. Sign languages like to
S3: use facial expressions a lot to tell us things, so
S3: you might furrow your brow to show that you're asking
S3: a question. Or you might have a sort of happy
S3: or a sad facial expression to show something of the
S3: emotional evaluation of what's going on. All of that stuff
S3: gets lost when you're just feeling a sign. And also
S3: sign languages like to use pointing a lot and direction
S3: a lot. So I might put someone in a signing
S3: space and then, you know, Bob is on my left
S3: and Jill is on my right. And if I'm signing that,
S3: I emailed Jill. I don't sign her name, I just
S3: sign in that direction. And this whole kind of working out,
S3: what's being pointed out is, of course, a daily challenge
S3: for anyone who's blind. And so things like this have
S3: to change when you're using a tactile form of Auslan,
S3: rather than what I'll just call visual Auslan, but is
S3: the sort of the normal deaf Auslan that people use.
S2: How have practitioners of tactile Auslan gone about bridging those
S2: gaps in the past, how much sort of success has
S2: there been in terms of adding those little pieces of
S2: information in other ways and adapting the language in that way?
S2: Has there been much success in that regard?
S3: Look, I think it's been very ad hoc. So most
S3: people who are tactile signers started life as deaf people
S3: with at least some vision and sort of learnt the
S3: visual language and then through things like retinitis pigmentosa, have
S3: lost their sight over the years and have sort of
S3: moved to this tactile way of signing. And so for
S3: both the deafblind people and the people supporting them, it's
S3: often just been very ad hoc as a learning process
S3: of what works. So there's not a there hasn't been
S3: any official training in Australia about how to use tactile
S3: Auslan with deafblind people. What's just tended to happen is
S3: people have been either employed as support workers for deafblind
S3: people and learnt to work with them or for whatever reasons,
S3: have been an Auslan interpreter who's like, yeah, I'm going
S3: to give this a go. And then, you know, might
S3: build up a relationship working with and interpreting for a
S3: specific deafblind person and sort of coming up with some
S3: strategies over the years, but really, really ad hoc in
S3: terms of how people solve these problems.
S2: And following on from that, Louisa, I think there is
S2: a really important topic around greater awareness of tactile Auslan.
S2: So I'm interested to get your perspective around the importance
S2: of raising awareness of language like tactile Auslan and enabling
S2: people around Australia and all the world in some respects
S2: to understand a fair bit more about it.
S3: Yeah. And look, I think it's one of these things
S3: where awareness raising is really important to know that, yeah,
S3: it is its own skill, but also so that people
S3: realise that, oh, if I'm working with a deaf blind
S3: person and I'm not doing this stuff, or I've got
S3: an interpreter who's just an Auslan interpreter but doesn't know
S3: tactile Auslan especially well that if the deaf blind person
S3: then comes out of it a bit confused or says
S3: the wrong thing or things like that, you know, we
S3: so often judge people as just, oh, this person's a
S3: bit slow, they're a bit stupid, they're not very competent.
S3: All of these things because we assume that the communication
S3: has been flawless. But of course, if the deaf blind
S3: person is only getting half the message, they're going to
S3: have all of these problems, they're going to have misunderstandings,
S3: and they're neither going to be taken seriously nor understand
S3: important information that's being communicated to them. So I think
S3: it's really important to build this recognition that, hey, you know, deaf,
S3: blind people have their own ways of signing, and if
S3: you do it correctly, suddenly they understand things and they
S3: can do things that otherwise are just, you know, not happening.
S2: Well, people listening out there may be thinking now and then,
S2: you know, I would really like to know a bit
S2: more about Auslan. And then the jump on top of that,
S2: getting into tactile Auslan, what would you say is the
S2: biggest jump from people who have perhaps learned a spoken
S2: language as a second or third language, and then that
S2: jump between the spoken language to the sign language, like
S2: Auslan and then tactile Auslan on top of that. What
S2: are the biggest things for people to be aware of
S2: as they jump in to, you know, learn the language
S2: and interpret for people out there in the deafblind community?
S3: Look, I think one of the things that comes up
S3: a lot with sign languages is that people, for some reason,
S3: tend to think that sign languages aren't real languages in
S3: the same way that spoken languages are. So there are
S3: lots of surveys that have been done with people who
S3: are studying sign languages at university where, you know, the
S3: majority of students will say something like, oh, yeah, you know,
S3: sign languages are really just sort of English on the
S3: hands or something like that, where, you know, of course
S3: they're totally not. They have their own grammar, they have
S3: their own word order, they have all their own different
S3: ways of doing things. And there are yeah, there are
S3: words in English that might have 2 or 3 different
S3: signs that are the same thing, depending on exactly what
S3: the meaning of the word is. And there are, of course,
S3: other words in English where you might have 2 or
S3: 3 words in English that are just the one Auslan sign.
S3: So often it's this whole getting over this mindset that no,
S3: they are actually real languages, but then also to getting
S3: into the fact that you have to pay attention to
S3: a whole new range of articulators. So yeah, we're used
S3: to listening carefully to words and working out that, you know,
S3: P and B are different, you know, different sounds or,
S3: you know, sounds are different sounds, but we're not used
S3: to necessarily paying attention that someone's got their finger extended,
S3: their index finger extended like they're pointing, and now they've
S3: just hooked that finger a little. And that that difference
S3: between a straight out point and a hooked point might
S3: be meaningful. And we're also not necessarily used to showing
S3: grammatical markers on our faces. So as sighted people will
S3: often have expressions of surprise or happiness or something like that.
S3: But we're not used to this idea that we might
S3: always sort of furrow our brow for a question, or
S3: always smile when we say the word happy, or when
S3: we sign the word happy. So those sorts of things
S3: are an adjustment. And then for the deafblind side of things,
S3: I think people who are both sighted and hearing often
S3: have this real sort of adjustment of just what do
S3: I need to be doing to make my signing clear?
S3: So if someone's trying to feel what I'm signing, how
S3: I need to change all of that to suddenly be
S3: a lot clearer when it's perfectly clear visually. And what
S3: do I need to include? So just like with audio
S3: description for blind people, for deaf blind people, they sort
S3: of need a sense of who's in the room, what's
S3: going on in the room? Are there people asking them
S3: with hands up, asking questions, all of that kind of stuff?
S3: And so just remembering to include that is important and
S3: challenging for many people.
S2: In amongst that is the need for an increased number
S2: of tactile Auslan interpreters to provide such a service like
S2: this and be able to enable people who are from
S2: the deaf blind community to communicate more openly with more
S2: people and have that bridge between conversation partners when they're
S2: trying to communicate important information to one another. So let's
S2: talk a bit about that need for an increased number
S2: of interpreters.
S3: Absolutely. And so at the moment, if you want an
S3: in-person interpreter or you normally need, of course, two interpreters
S3: because they'll swap every ten minutes or so, it's important
S3: with tactile signing, people need to swap very regularly because
S3: the pressure of sort of having someone's hands on your
S3: hands while you're signing, even if they're sort of super
S3: light and super gentle, can cause shoulder injuries if you
S3: do it for too long at a time. So to
S3: get two tactile Auslan interpreters at an event in person,
S3: we're often booking two months in advance at the moment,
S3: Whereas I can rock up and say, hey, I want
S3: a sign language interpreter online and I can normally get
S3: one tomorrow. So yeah, it's a really big skill shortage
S3: and shortage of people who can and will do this
S3: work at the moment. So very important and as you say,
S3: really important for inclusion as well because, you know, deaf
S3: blind people are doubly isolated. You know, blind people can
S3: access telephones and always have been able to and have
S3: radio and various ways of connecting with each other. And
S3: Braille deaf people have these days, video phones. Deaf blind
S3: people have often had a school experience that hasn't left
S3: them with wonderful literacy. They've often become blind late in
S3: life as well. So a number of them are not
S3: really fluent Braille readers. They can't use a video phone
S3: to sign with people. They can't use a normal phone
S3: to call with people, so they're just at huge risk
S3: of being really socially isolated.
S2: And this is where the accredited training comes in to
S2: boost the numbers of tactile Auslan interpreters around Australia. So
S2: let's get a bit of an overview of the accredited
S2: training for people out there.
S3: Yeah. So this is something that's very very new to Australia.
S3: And that doesn't happen in a lot of parts of
S3: the world either. So I think, you know, Norway and
S3: Sweden are two of the only places currently where people
S3: are really being routinely trained as deafblind interpreters. But what
S3: we're planning on doing is we have a four part
S3: module for the training. The first part is stuff that
S3: a lot of people will have already done and we'll
S3: be able to get prior learning for. And that's around
S3: some of these basic introduction to deafblindness units or courses
S3: that are offered. So for example, Deafblind Victoria at the
S3: moment offer a kind of introduction to Deafblindness day. So
S3: for people who haven't already done that, we'll have some
S3: pathways for them. But many of the people coming into
S3: the course will have that basic knowledge about Deafblindness. Then
S3: they'll come to us for a two day weekend workshop
S3: of hands on training, of course, quite literally hands on,
S3: where we're working through some of these strategies and, you know,
S3: with a focus on tactile Auslan, but also looking at
S3: other ways that deafblind people sign. So for folk with
S3: Usher's syndrome, they'll often use what's sometimes called restricted visual
S3: frame signing or close signing. So where what, you're really
S3: trying to hold the hands in a very tight envelope
S3: where they can still see them. And so overview of
S3: the techniques to use with all of this. Then people
S3: go out into the world for a month or two.
S3: They do some jobs working as deafblind interpreters and reflect
S3: on those. They do some readings with us and some
S3: ethics based training about some of the ethical issues in
S3: working with deafblind. And then they come back to us
S3: for a final weekend training, where we debrief around some
S3: of the stuff they've been doing, problem solve, and talk
S3: a little bit more about some of the working as
S3: a team of tactile interpreters.
S2: Let's go into the details of how and where and
S2: when the training sessions will be delivered. If you have
S2: that information. Yet, I understand it's still in some ways
S2: in the pipeline, and you might not have all the
S2: details at hand as we speak, but how can people
S2: keep in touch? To find out more about the sessions,
S2: if they'd like to take part and skill up in
S2: such an important area?
S3: Yeah, excellent. So we're planning on running the weekend workshops
S3: in July and September, and they will this year just
S3: be in Melbourne. But we're talking about options to roll
S3: out better nationally in the future. So in order to
S3: come to these workshops, people do need to already hold
S3: a naati qualification as either an Auslan interpreter, a provisional
S3: Auslan interpreter, or an ATI deaf interpreter. And if people
S3: would like to be on the waiting list, or it's
S3: not so much a waiting list, but be added to
S3: the list of people who are told about the formal
S3: application process. They can do that just by emailing me. Louisa. Louisa.
S3: Dot Willoughby w I l l o u g h
S3: b y@monash.edu, and we'll make sure that you're sent all
S3: the information you need to register your interest when the
S3: time comes.
S2: Perfect. I've been speaking today with Associate Professor Louisa Willoughby,
S2: Senior Lecturer at Monash University, here to chat to me
S2: today all about tactile Auslan and a short course featuring
S2: a series of modules and workshops run through Monash University
S2: on offer later this year for accredited Auslan interpreters to
S2: skill up in tactile Auslan. Louisa, thank you so much
S2: for your time today. Great to catch up with you.
S3: Thank you.
S2: I'm Sam Cully and you're listening to Talking Vision. On
S2: Vision Australia Radio, associated stations of Reading Radio and the
S2: Community Radio Network. I hope you enjoyed that conversation there
S2: with Louisa Willoughby. If you missed any part of that
S2: conversation with Louisa or you would love to hear it again.
S2: Talking vision is available on the Vision Australia Radio website.
S2: Simply head to VA radio.org. That's VA radio all one
S2: word.org to find more episodes. You can also find Talking
S2: Vision on the podcast app of your choice or through
S2: the Vision Australia Library on the evening of Tuesday the
S2: 25th of March, the federal budget. The fourth of this
S2: current government will be handed down. So what will it
S2: mean for the disability community and how will it affect
S2: their day to day lives? Powered Media's Emma myers spoke
S2: with Skye Kakoschke-moore, CEO of Children and Young People with disability,
S2: about what she hopes will be included in the budget.
S2: Emma began by asking Skye to highlight what she hopes
S2: will be included in this year's budget, in terms of
S2: measures to benefit the disability community.
S4: It's cider. We made a pre-budget submission and very broadly speaking,
S4: the themes that we centred our submission on were investment
S4: in a truly inclusive education system for children and young
S4: people with disability, um, investment in a fair, safe and
S4: accessible NDIS system, as well as foundational supports and all
S4: supports really inside and outside of the NDIS. We're also
S4: calling on the government to address the unemployment and underemployment
S4: of young people with disability, as this is really closely
S4: linked to the significant cost of living pressures that many
S4: in the country are experiencing right now. And finally, we've
S4: called for an increase in investment in individual advocacy services,
S4: specifically for children and young people with disability. We know
S4: that with all of the changes that are happening to
S4: the NDIS, and the fact that foundational supports are still
S4: a concept and not yet a reality, there's likely to
S4: be an increase in children and young people who aren't
S4: receiving or can't access the support they need. So the
S4: demand on in the demand on individual advocacy is only
S4: going to grow.
S5: And what would you like to see in the realm
S5: of foundation or support?
S4: From my conversations with children and young people and their families,
S4: we've heard about the importance of peer networks as a
S4: form of connection, as a form of sharing information, but
S4: also as a way that self-advocacy skills are often built. Um,
S4: these peer networks, traditionally, um, some have received funding from
S4: the federal government, some may pop up quite informally, and
S4: we've had some discussions with the community about some of
S4: those initiatives that might be operating now, but don't receive
S4: any or receive very little government funding. And so when
S4: we made our submission about foundational supports, we recommended the
S4: government implement what we called a grassroots connector funding model,
S4: which would enable the government to fund larger organizations that
S4: meet the legal requirements that have the board set up
S4: that understand how to manage risk funds. Those organizations who
S4: will then pass on smaller amounts of funding to those
S4: initiatives that have been initiated by the local community. So
S4: they're really driven by local demand. So it might be,
S4: you know, a drop in, um, type center arrangement, or
S4: it might be a peer network or it might be, um,
S4: a website or a social media group that's really taken off.
S4: Those organizations, um, or the people running them often can't
S4: apply for government funding on their own because they don't
S4: have those things, like a proper board set up and
S4: risk management frameworks in place. So we think that this
S4: grassroots connector model would be a way that the government
S4: could fund those locally driven initiatives in a way that's
S4: supported by larger organizations who can help with things like
S4: compliance and reporting.
S5: And so what are you hoping to see on budget night?
S4: I like to think of myself as a bit of
S4: an eternal optimist. And so if I put my hope
S4: that on, what I'm hoping to see is recognition from
S4: the government that the NDA is here to stay, that
S4: we're going to have a national disability Insurance scheme that
S4: is funded in order to meet the support needs of
S4: children and young people with disability. Um, I'm really hoping
S4: to see some stronger signals from the government about how
S4: much Commonwealth funding is going to be delivered to support
S4: foundational supports, and potentially even some more detail about what
S4: those sorts of supports or services will be funded through
S4: foundational supports. That's still a big question mark at the moment. Um,
S4: I would love to see some funding in there, um,
S4: towards more inclusion in schools. So this could look like, um,
S4: an increased funding from the Commonwealth to do something like
S4: a national roadmap for inclusive education, which was one of
S4: the recommendations from the Disability Royal Commission. Um, and one
S4: other thing that site has called for is the establishment
S4: of a national oversight body that would ensure that education
S4: providers at all levels are meeting their inclusion obligations to students. Um,
S4: it would also be great to see, um, increased funding
S4: for individual advocacy. As I said earlier, we're just seeing
S4: that there's a huge amount of unmet demand currently. And
S4: that's going that's going to grow. Um, we would also
S4: love to see an increase to the rate of the
S4: disability support pension. Like, I know from our conversations with
S4: young people and also talking to organisations that do individual
S4: advocacy with young people, um, getting access to the DSP
S4: is a huge issue. Um, so at least seeing the
S4: rate of that increase would, would be a step in
S4: the right direction.
S2: And that's all the time we have for today. You've
S2: been listening to Talking Vision. Talking vision is a Vision
S2: Australia radio production. Thanks to all involved with putting the
S2: show together every week. And remember, we love hearing from you.
S2: So please get in touch any time on our email
S2: at Talking Vision. At Vision australia.org. That's talking vision all
S2: one word at Vision australia.org. But until next week it's
S2: Sam Coley saying bye for now.
S1: You can contact Vision Australia by phoning us anytime during
S1: business hours on 1300 847 406. That's 1300 847 486 or by visiting Vision australia.org.
S1: That's Vision australia.org.