WEBVTT - Nothings off Limits - Dating with blindness or low vision (Ep7) 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:08.060 Nothing's off limits, things off limits, bringing together experts and 0:00:08.060 --> 0:00:11.299 people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love 0:00:11.300 --> 0:00:14.720 to avoid, but absolutely need to talk about me with 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:18.830 the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages 0:00:18.829 --> 0:00:21.620 and capacity building grant and grants. 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:29.390 Hello, and welcome to this next episode of Nothing's Off Limits. 0:00:29.510 --> 0:00:32.510 My name is Tess, and together with my co-host Polly, 0:00:32.570 --> 0:00:34.670 we're going to be delving into some of those subjects 0:00:34.670 --> 0:00:37.910 which we might normally consider off limits, such as dating, 0:00:38.060 --> 0:00:42.620 adult entertainment, identity and more. We'll be exploring them openly 0:00:42.620 --> 0:00:45.800 and honestly through the specific lens of blindness and low 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.080 vision with the help of our expert guests. 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.350 This podcast is available to be downloaded on the Vision 0:00:51.350 --> 0:00:54.650 Australia website, and you can find out more information about 0:00:54.650 --> 0:00:56.360 where to find our web page at the end of 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:00.490 the show. But in this episode, we are talking about dating, 0:01:00.500 --> 0:01:02.360 and there are a number of ways we can go 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:06.380 about meeting potential dates. Some people might go to speed 0:01:06.380 --> 0:01:10.490 dating events or singles parties, and others may look online, 0:01:10.490 --> 0:01:16.010 and there are many online dating sites, including Tinder, eHarmony, OkCupid, 0:01:16.010 --> 0:01:18.590 Hinge and Bumble. And they enable you to view the 0:01:18.590 --> 0:01:21.590 profiles of people anywhere in the world and interact with 0:01:21.590 --> 0:01:24.260 them by sharing messages and photos. And in spite of 0:01:24.260 --> 0:01:27.289 the benefits this may provide, it also presents a number 0:01:27.290 --> 0:01:30.620 of challenges, particularly for people with a disability. Some of 0:01:30.620 --> 0:01:33.350 the most common challenges include the issue of whether or 0:01:33.350 --> 0:01:35.930 not to disclose that you have a disability and how 0:01:35.930 --> 0:01:38.959 to remain safe and comfortable when meeting someone you've only 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:43.070 spoken to online. Unfortunately, these issues can become obstacles to 0:01:43.069 --> 0:01:46.250 people with a disability feeling confident to explore the world 0:01:46.250 --> 0:01:49.610 of online dating. Is that something that resonates with you? 0:01:49.700 --> 0:01:50.330 It really 0:01:50.330 --> 0:01:55.220 does poly. I've experienced the world of online dating and look, 0:01:55.220 --> 0:01:59.180 everyone's different. I don't know if dating as somebody who's 0:01:59.180 --> 0:02:02.000 gay is different is similar to dating as somebody who's straight, 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:05.730 but I've always wondered whether to disclose my blindness, whether 0:02:05.730 --> 0:02:08.929 or not to. There's been problems with accessibility of certain sites, 0:02:08.930 --> 0:02:11.150 so that's sort of limited my options in some way. 0:02:11.180 --> 0:02:13.550 So I can quite understand how a lot of people 0:02:13.550 --> 0:02:16.670 with disabilities might be prevented from exploring the world of 0:02:16.669 --> 0:02:19.580 dating by by some of the challenges that we face 0:02:19.580 --> 0:02:21.230 today with modern dating. Well, to 0:02:21.230 --> 0:02:24.020 help us address some of these challenges, we have a 0:02:24.020 --> 0:02:27.109 great lineup of guests and we'll introduce them in a moment. 0:02:27.110 --> 0:02:30.950 But first we asked you how you approached the challenges 0:02:30.950 --> 0:02:33.530 of dating, and we got some really interesting answers. 0:02:34.340 --> 0:02:44.000 Nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly Polly. What's the 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.660 hardest thing about dating? I don't think it differs too 0:02:47.660 --> 0:02:52.610 much with a blind, low vision or completely sighted. It's 0:02:52.610 --> 0:02:55.940 just that saying hello and making that first contact. 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.610 Good question. Wait a minute. Posit there for a second. 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:04.639 The hardest thing about dating is getting over negative self-talk. 0:03:04.910 --> 0:03:08.209 Oh wow, that's profound. Most people would say the options 0:03:08.210 --> 0:03:08.930 that are out there, 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:12.950 I think the the options that are out there are 0:03:12.950 --> 0:03:16.310 dictated by how you see yourself. You limit your own 0:03:16.310 --> 0:03:19.280 options by going, Oh, look, I'm not good enough for 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:21.440 that person or how do you know that you know 0:03:21.470 --> 0:03:23.540 that person is outside my lead? Or how do you 0:03:23.540 --> 0:03:26.990 know that you're limiting yourself by the way you see 0:03:26.990 --> 0:03:27.470 yourself 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.440 or to be truthful? Jason, I'm completely hopeless in this area, 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:34.880 and I haven't done much of it, and I need 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.309 to do more of it. But I think the hardest 0:03:37.310 --> 0:03:40.310 thing is that a lot of initial attraction is visual, 0:03:40.310 --> 0:03:43.610 and it's those non those sort of visual cues that 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:47.960 can begin attraction. And when you can't see, you don't 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.710 have that connection, that early connection with people, it's hard 0:03:51.710 --> 0:03:55.190 to actually strike up that connection. So then you have 0:03:55.190 --> 0:03:58.760 all the online dating apps, and I can't talk about it, 0:03:58.970 --> 0:04:02.240 but I've never done it. I feel like I don't 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:05.860 feel particularly comfortable and straying into that area, even though 0:04:05.910 --> 0:04:07.340 probably that's what I do need to do. 0:04:07.550 --> 0:04:12.140 Oh, these days, I think it's because there's so much 0:04:12.140 --> 0:04:16.219 competition out there. Also, social media, I think in some 0:04:16.220 --> 0:04:19.190 ways makes it harder. I think the challenge is today's 0:04:19.190 --> 0:04:23.719 if people use the Tindal, another sort of dating platforms 0:04:23.870 --> 0:04:27.590 and there's the whole issue about disclosure, do I disclose 0:04:27.589 --> 0:04:30.110 that I'm visually impaired or not? And then this whole 0:04:30.110 --> 0:04:32.840 anxiety thing about sort of meeting up someone and having 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:35.570 to reveal the fact that you're visually impaired? It's it's 0:04:35.660 --> 0:04:38.000 it's probably a lot more challenging than what it's ever been. 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:39.979 In some ways. A lot of people, I think, just 0:04:39.980 --> 0:04:40.430 give up. 0:04:40.490 --> 0:04:43.190 To me, this is a little bit like the whole 0:04:43.190 --> 0:04:46.670 finding employment thing. It's like, when do you disclose my 0:04:46.670 --> 0:04:50.089 vision impairment isn't very obvious to someone just looking at 0:04:50.089 --> 0:04:53.029 me at first glance, this is really weird dance that 0:04:53.029 --> 0:04:55.700 I have to do, not just with dating with everybody. 0:04:55.700 --> 0:04:58.130 When they start to notice that I'm not looking at 0:04:58.130 --> 0:05:01.450 them straight on or I'm not able to see something, 0:05:01.460 --> 0:05:04.400 there's a sort of a point between where it becomes awkward. 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:06.470 And I don't want to say something and where I 0:05:06.470 --> 0:05:09.410 probably should have stepped in and said, something's dating. Sites 0:05:09.410 --> 0:05:12.739 always say that eye contact is the most important thing, 0:05:12.740 --> 0:05:16.040 which is really daunting when you can't make eye contact. 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:21.110 You're listening to Nothing's Off Limits, which is entirely produced 0:05:21.110 --> 0:05:22.820 by Vision Australia radio. 0:05:23.150 --> 0:05:27.100 It's time. You welcome our first guest for this episode, 0:05:27.110 --> 0:05:30.919 Adelina Holloway, a mentor and passionate advocate for people who 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.500 are blind or have low vision to have their voices heard. 0:05:33.589 --> 0:05:37.220 After 27 years of marriage, Adelina decided to explore the 0:05:37.220 --> 0:05:39.560 world of online dating, and she's here to tell us 0:05:39.589 --> 0:05:43.039 all about it. Lena, welcome. Thank you for joining us. 0:05:43.339 --> 0:05:46.070 And let's go straight in. What made you decide to 0:05:46.070 --> 0:05:47.659 explore online dating? 0:05:47.690 --> 0:05:50.700 Well, as you mentioned, I'd been with the same pattern 0:05:50.700 --> 0:05:54.529 of for 27 years, married for 20 of those years. 0:05:54.529 --> 0:05:57.260 And yeah, about three and a half years ago we 0:05:57.260 --> 0:06:00.169 split it, knocked the wind out of myself, so to speak, 0:06:00.170 --> 0:06:02.869 and I wondered how I would get along in the 0:06:02.870 --> 0:06:07.130 world alone, let alone alone with someone with low vision. 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:08.599 It took me a while to learn how to be 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:11.179 alone and and I realized after a little while that 0:06:11.180 --> 0:06:13.280 I just didn't want to be. I come from an 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:18.349 Italian background where intimacy, passion, connection with other people, all 0:06:18.350 --> 0:06:20.210 that sort of thing is very much ingrained in me. 0:06:20.210 --> 0:06:22.460 So I knew I could never get through, get along 0:06:22.460 --> 0:06:24.750 in this world without a partner. I was about 18 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:29.750 months into reconciling with my divorce or my separation that 0:06:29.750 --> 0:06:32.150 I'd give a colleague of mine sort of had some 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.270 success with one of the dating sites, and I thought 0:06:34.790 --> 0:06:37.130 I resisted and resisted and then thought, Well, what the hell? 0:06:37.370 --> 0:06:38.210 And on I went. 0:06:39.410 --> 0:06:42.020 And what were some of the challenges that came with 0:06:42.020 --> 0:06:42.800 online dating? 0:06:43.250 --> 0:06:45.200 I got a lot of attention on there, which I 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.930 wasn't expecting. Yeah, so I guess it was just trying 0:06:47.930 --> 0:06:50.030 to weed out who the scammers were and how the who, 0:06:50.029 --> 0:06:53.270 the ones that were worth perhaps chatting to and then 0:06:53.270 --> 0:06:56.330 deciding at what point do I disclose my vision impairment? 0:06:56.660 --> 0:06:59.250 Once I realized I wanted to meet that person and 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:01.940 make that meet the person, you know, face to face. 0:07:01.940 --> 0:07:04.430 So that was challenging as far as I've got enough 0:07:04.430 --> 0:07:08.210 vision that I was able to see the photographs. Accessibility 0:07:08.210 --> 0:07:11.060 wasn't too much of an issue for me. Yeah, look, 0:07:11.060 --> 0:07:13.270 disclosure was the biggest thing to me, I think, yeah. 0:07:13.490 --> 0:07:15.530 And can you tell us a bit more about that? 0:07:15.530 --> 0:07:19.640 Because that feels like such a personal choice and particularly 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.400 with online dating and as you said, if you're maybe 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:26.090 low vision, so there's less maybe visual cues that might 0:07:26.090 --> 0:07:28.670 indicate that you have a vision loss. How did you 0:07:28.670 --> 0:07:29.420 go about that? 0:07:29.450 --> 0:07:31.910 I think I made the decision that I wouldn't do 0:07:31.910 --> 0:07:34.340 it in the app. I wanted to give myself the 0:07:34.340 --> 0:07:37.940 best chance of finding someone that accepted me for me 0:07:37.940 --> 0:07:41.510 before they stereotype me as, you know, the blind girl, 0:07:41.540 --> 0:07:44.510 you know? So that was a decision I made, whether 0:07:44.510 --> 0:07:46.790 it be right or wrong that I wouldn't disclose in 0:07:46.790 --> 0:07:49.580 the app. Like, I wouldn't say that I was, that 0:07:49.580 --> 0:07:52.130 I had a vision impairment in the app. Then I 0:07:52.130 --> 0:07:54.500 had to decide whether I would do it when I 0:07:54.500 --> 0:07:58.130 had conversations or face time, conversations or whatever. And often 0:07:58.130 --> 0:08:00.830 I grappled with that a little bit because texting that 0:08:00.830 --> 0:08:03.800 someone can become quite intimate and and it's almost like 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:05.690 I felt at times that I was being a bit 0:08:05.690 --> 0:08:07.850 of a fraud because I wouldn't wasn't telling them the 0:08:07.850 --> 0:08:10.610 whole truth about myself. Having said that, I soon found 0:08:10.610 --> 0:08:13.550 out that I had met people that were so different 0:08:13.550 --> 0:08:17.989 from the person I was speaking to. So, you know 0:08:17.990 --> 0:08:22.010 who was the fraud? Yeah, so but I decided I 0:08:22.010 --> 0:08:25.340 didn't disclose in the first few dates if I wanted 0:08:25.340 --> 0:08:27.110 it to go to a second date or further than that, 0:08:27.110 --> 0:08:29.420 then I would disclose. There were times where I just 0:08:29.420 --> 0:08:31.640 went on, I need to get out of here and 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:36.890 it's not worth my energy to disclose. And and then 0:08:37.429 --> 0:08:39.559 and then if I knew there it some potential for 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.319 it to go further, then yeah, I disclosed I would 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.170 say that, you know, but just pieces at a time. 0:08:45.170 --> 0:08:47.599 I didn't give my whole life story. I gave pieces 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:49.280 at a time and what I felt I needed to 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.140 know at that time. But soon found out that that 0:08:51.140 --> 0:08:55.339 probably wasn't the right tack, because I yeah, it kind 0:08:55.340 --> 0:08:57.559 of backfired on me a couple of times. Yeah, I 0:08:57.559 --> 0:08:58.940 can tell that story. 0:08:58.940 --> 0:09:00.739 If you want me to. I feel like we have 0:09:00.740 --> 0:09:04.250 to ask the question Well. Okay. Yeah. 0:09:04.260 --> 0:09:07.459 So and it's with because of I mean, I went 0:09:07.460 --> 0:09:10.460 on many, many dates and somewhat short term. Some didn't 0:09:10.460 --> 0:09:13.010 go past the first date. But I just talk about 0:09:13.010 --> 0:09:15.380 the current one that's been about eight months in now, 0:09:15.380 --> 0:09:17.690 and I sat with him one night over a drink 0:09:17.690 --> 0:09:19.220 and I sort of said, you know, when would you 0:09:19.220 --> 0:09:22.579 have like me to disclose? He obviously knows now. He said, 0:09:22.580 --> 0:09:24.949 I would like you to have disclosed on the first night. 0:09:24.980 --> 0:09:27.530 I said, why? He said, Because I thought you weren't 0:09:27.530 --> 0:09:29.900 into me. And I went, Why? He said, Because you 0:09:29.929 --> 0:09:32.300 weren't making any eye contact with me over dinner. And 0:09:32.300 --> 0:09:37.449 then when we got intimate, he again said during, you know, 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:39.679 the throes of passion for want of a better word. 0:09:40.250 --> 0:09:41.959 I said I wasn't making any eye contact. I wasn't 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:43.730 looking at him. So he said to me, I just 0:09:43.730 --> 0:09:45.679 thought you weren't into me. Couple of days later, he 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:47.540 rang me and he said, I don't I don't think 0:09:47.540 --> 0:09:50.179 this is going to work. And I hadn't disclosed at 0:09:50.179 --> 0:09:51.770 this stage and I said why? And he said, it's 0:09:51.770 --> 0:09:54.109 clear that you're not into me. I just think you're 0:09:54.110 --> 0:09:56.720 perhaps too good for me the way you look or 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:58.370 that sort of thing. I'm not, you know, you just 0:09:58.370 --> 0:10:00.650 you weren't making any eye contact with me and I 0:10:00.650 --> 0:10:02.540 just went, Oh gosh, I can't. I've got to tell 0:10:02.540 --> 0:10:05.210 you something. This is the reason why I wasn't making 0:10:05.210 --> 0:10:07.040 eye contact with you. And he went, Oh God, why 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.609 didn't you tell me? He said, Now it makes sense. So, yeah, 0:10:10.610 --> 0:10:13.099 that was my story about that, Ben. I'm still with 0:10:13.100 --> 0:10:14.689 that particular gentleman, so 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:22.260 I knew it wasn't me. JJ Sutherland, I chime in 0:10:22.270 --> 0:10:22.760 and did. 0:10:24.750 --> 0:10:26.400 And I had to say I have to just 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:28.800 add a little bit the other way that this guy 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:30.870 is on air or not, but it kind of had 0:10:30.870 --> 0:10:33.810 a knock on effect to, Oh gosh, how do I 0:10:33.809 --> 0:10:37.619 say this to his performance? Now I actually rang a 0:10:37.620 --> 0:10:40.660 friend of mine, a gay male friend, and said, there's 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.470 such a thing as performance anxiety said, Hell yeah. They said, 0:10:43.470 --> 0:10:44.970 What are you talking about? Tell me the story. And 0:10:44.970 --> 0:10:46.170 I said, Well, this is the story. And he went, 0:10:46.170 --> 0:10:52.070 Oh God, I'm intimidated by you, let alone, you know? Yeah, 0:10:52.350 --> 0:10:55.560 you know, someone who is not only intimidated by the 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:57.690 way you look, but then you don't make any eye 0:10:57.690 --> 0:10:59.939 contact with him and you're not one of the poor 0:10:59.940 --> 0:11:02.719 guy couldn't perform. So, you know, oh, poor bloke. 0:11:02.870 --> 0:11:04.470 Oh, as soon as I disclosed, 0:11:04.470 --> 0:11:05.100 everything 0:11:05.100 --> 0:11:11.819 changed. Oh gosh, say I overshare, Love it. I love it. 0:11:12.780 --> 0:11:13.410 Thank you. 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:15.720 They describe it as a good thing. 0:11:15.809 --> 0:11:20.400 So that's a really insightful story. And I guess now 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:22.589 you're a few months down the line. I guess that's 0:11:22.590 --> 0:11:26.400 another thing that we've spoken about in the past around. 0:11:26.970 --> 0:11:30.540 If you have a disability, that is danger, the right 0:11:30.540 --> 0:11:34.350 word of part where the lines are between a partner 0:11:34.350 --> 0:11:38.040 and someone who's supporting you around some of the aspects 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.130 of your disability. Yeah. Has that come up at all 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.520 with your current relationship or previous relationships? And how do 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:47.310 you kind of navigate that sort of dual relationship? 0:11:47.580 --> 0:11:49.410 Yeah, look a bit of both. I mean, I have 0:11:49.410 --> 0:11:51.809 disclosed to other partners in the past, and you can 0:11:51.809 --> 0:11:55.230 almost see a shift from them seeing you as an, 0:11:55.260 --> 0:11:58.560 you know, an attractive, independent sort of woman to someone 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:00.660 who needs help. You know, I had to say to 0:12:00.660 --> 0:12:02.250 me that, you know, Oh, now I can see the 0:12:02.250 --> 0:12:05.130 vulnerability in you. And now that makes sense because you know, 0:12:05.130 --> 0:12:07.500 there are certain situations where you're not as confident and 0:12:07.590 --> 0:12:09.750 that sort of thing. And you know, I've had partners 0:12:09.750 --> 0:12:12.179 completely flip it on their head. They were just they 0:12:12.179 --> 0:12:16.140 were just now, you know, wanting to completely control what 0:12:16.140 --> 0:12:18.760 I did, you know, and check in on me and 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.180 and guide me when I didn't need to be guided and, 0:12:21.210 --> 0:12:23.040 you know, over handle me and that sort of thing. 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:24.510 And I think I've said to you in the past that, 0:12:24.510 --> 0:12:26.990 you know, if I wanted, if I wanted that, I'd 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:30.000 employ a support worker, you know, and that's not what 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:33.000 I want. So but it's tricky because sometimes I do 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.429 need the help. It's a very fine line between wanting 0:12:35.429 --> 0:12:39.300 to be, you know, somewhat normal or sighted, you know, 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:41.850 to someone who needs help and when you fiercely independent. 0:12:42.270 --> 0:12:44.040 And I've had my current partner say to me, You know, 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.770 you just need to tell me when I can help you, 0:12:46.770 --> 0:12:49.469 because sometimes when he goes to help me, I'll I'll go, No, no, 0:12:49.470 --> 0:12:51.479 I don't need the help. And he's like, You need 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:53.699 to kind of tell me, I can't read your mind. 0:12:53.700 --> 0:12:55.890 I need to know. And with my particular condition, I 0:12:55.890 --> 0:12:59.490 p it's very environmental, so someday I can function very, 0:12:59.490 --> 0:13:02.700 very well and some lighting conditions and other times I'm 0:13:02.700 --> 0:13:06.240 totally blind. So especially in the dark, it's really tricky. 0:13:06.420 --> 0:13:09.330 It's it's such a fine line, but I guess the 0:13:09.330 --> 0:13:12.360 answer is that it's just all about communication and it's 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.940 about me letting my guard down, telling the truth. It 0:13:14.940 --> 0:13:17.520 took me a long time to even talk about my 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.820 mobility needs, you know, around my dog and and that 0:13:20.820 --> 0:13:21.360 sort of thing. 0:13:21.550 --> 0:13:24.480 Adelina, thank you so much for coming on and being 0:13:24.510 --> 0:13:29.020 so generous with your experience and your insights around this. 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:30.989 I was particularly struck by something you said right at 0:13:30.990 --> 0:13:33.570 the beginning around, you know, spending some time alone with 0:13:33.570 --> 0:13:36.600 yourself and deciding if being with someone is what you wanted, 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:38.970 because I think that's a really good point to meet. 0:13:38.970 --> 0:13:41.460 You may not need anyone in that in that respect. 0:13:41.460 --> 0:13:43.500 So I'm I'm really glad that you made that point. 0:13:43.500 --> 0:13:45.689 But thank you so much for coming on, Adelina and 0:13:45.690 --> 0:13:47.850 most welcome and wonderful to talk to you. 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:49.560 Take care. OK, thanks, guys. 0:13:51.830 --> 0:13:54.710 You're listening to nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly. 0:13:54.890 --> 0:13:57.829 Did you know Vision Australia runs Tally Link, a virtual 0:13:57.830 --> 0:14:00.740 social program that connects like minded people across a wide 0:14:00.740 --> 0:14:05.120 range of interest areas nationally, either through telephone or video conferencing? 0:14:05.270 --> 0:14:08.059 For more information go to Vision Australia dot org or 0:14:08.059 --> 0:14:12.500 call one 800 eight four seven four double six. Vision 0:14:12.500 --> 0:14:16.760 Australia Blindness Low Vision Opportunity I'd 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.570 now like to introduce two guests Sarah Taylor and Namoi 0:14:20.570 --> 0:14:23.660 Malcolm Sarah and the more you have lived. Experience of 0:14:23.660 --> 0:14:26.990 online dating and code facilitate the Tele Link Group table 0:14:26.990 --> 0:14:30.710 for one, which provides information and insights about dating from 0:14:30.710 --> 0:14:34.130 a blindness and low vision perspective. Sarah Namoi Thank you 0:14:34.130 --> 0:14:35.630 so much for joining us today. 0:14:35.660 --> 0:14:36.560 Thanks for having me. 0:14:36.650 --> 0:14:37.700 Absolute pleasure. 0:14:37.730 --> 0:14:43.330 How does your low vision impacted much on your dating experience, Sarah? 0:14:43.340 --> 0:14:44.270 Would you like to get through 0:14:44.270 --> 0:14:48.770 this one where it counts? Interpersonal communication and chatting and 0:14:48.770 --> 0:14:52.040 getting to know people? I would say no. Practically like 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.950 using apps and getting out and about. I would say it. 0:14:55.190 --> 0:14:58.970 So for me, dating as a person with vision loss 0:14:58.970 --> 0:15:02.960 was very interesting, one that started when I was 18. 0:15:03.020 --> 0:15:05.960 The hardest part of dating with a visual impairment or 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.510 with double vision, as I had at that time, was 0:15:08.510 --> 0:15:13.160 probably just building my confidence, meet people and to demonstrate 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:15.320 that I was worthy of being dated. 0:15:15.470 --> 0:15:18.440 What are some ways that you can engage with confidence 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:20.810 when you're meeting someone for the first time, but make 0:15:20.810 --> 0:15:22.280 sure that you're feeling safe? 0:15:22.310 --> 0:15:26.300 Namoi Look, I would say that to engage with other people, 0:15:26.420 --> 0:15:30.750 you first need to be engaging to mount smiling at people. 0:15:30.770 --> 0:15:34.070 It's about making people feel like you are approachable. And 0:15:34.070 --> 0:15:37.760 then it's probably about taking that shot, feeling comfortable and 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:41.510 confident and saying hello. Some people like to use that 0:15:41.510 --> 0:15:45.650 are funny anecdotes. Some people like to wear things that 0:15:45.860 --> 0:15:49.010 give the person you want to talk to. Something to 0:15:49.070 --> 0:15:52.070 talk about. Something to open the conversation with, which is 0:15:52.070 --> 0:15:54.590 a lot of reason why. If you're a dog user 0:15:54.590 --> 0:15:57.680 or a cane user, that's what people open with, because 0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.840 it's something you've given them to talk to you about. 0:16:00.050 --> 0:16:03.320 Because starting a conversation, you know, especially with one who 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:07.100 isn't particularly chatty, it's really not fun, is it? I've 0:16:07.100 --> 0:16:10.190 had the experience of meeting a couple of women who 0:16:10.190 --> 0:16:12.830 I've just instantly clicked with, and then the experience of 0:16:12.830 --> 0:16:17.000 meeting with a woman who basically sat there with monosyllabic answers. 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:19.310 So it's always good. It sounds like if it's something 0:16:19.310 --> 0:16:21.620 to start the conversation, what do you think, Sarah? 0:16:21.980 --> 0:16:24.740 I think it's about having your confidence, having your own 0:16:24.890 --> 0:16:27.350 skills up so you feel confident to walk in there 0:16:27.350 --> 0:16:30.650 and leave with confidence. I think for me, having being 0:16:30.650 --> 0:16:34.550 familiar with the venue, kind of knowing your area kind 0:16:34.550 --> 0:16:38.090 of gives me that confidence, being able to trust yourself 0:16:38.090 --> 0:16:39.680 that you can handle the situation 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:43.220 and having a familiar venue. Could that be like a 0:16:43.220 --> 0:16:47.150 café or a bar or around people that you've met before? 0:16:47.690 --> 0:16:50.630 Sure. For me, I prefer kind of coffee dates, so 0:16:50.630 --> 0:16:53.180 daytime date. So it's a bit easier and there's more 0:16:53.180 --> 0:16:56.480 people around and I just feel safer and more casual 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:57.200 and Namoi. 0:16:57.230 --> 0:17:00.140 What indicators can you use to tell if a date 0:17:00.140 --> 0:17:01.010 is going well? 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:03.530 Well, I think there are two types of indicators that 0:17:03.530 --> 0:17:06.859 the indicators that you're giving us and the indicators that 0:17:06.859 --> 0:17:10.909 you're picking up on. So the indicators that may help 0:17:10.910 --> 0:17:12.770 you to know if the date is going well, the 0:17:12.770 --> 0:17:15.830 indicators that you're giving off are things like, are you 0:17:15.830 --> 0:17:19.280 feeling tense? You know, are you having those racing thoughts 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.740 in your mind? Are you having those butterflies in your stomach? 0:17:22.310 --> 0:17:25.310 What's your gut saying to you? Your gut saying this 0:17:25.310 --> 0:17:28.940 is going well and the things that you might be 0:17:28.940 --> 0:17:32.030 listening for, you might be listening for whether or not 0:17:32.030 --> 0:17:34.969 the person is laughing, whether or not the person is 0:17:34.970 --> 0:17:38.540 engaged with you, whether or not the conversation is flowing. 0:17:38.900 --> 0:17:41.240 It might also be listening for cues like the person 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:44.570 is looking away or their voice. If you're someone who 0:17:44.780 --> 0:17:47.720 has no vision, their voice may be looking after the 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.840 left or to the right or down looking for those 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.660 sort of cues that tell you that maybe they're not 0:17:53.660 --> 0:17:56.000 as engaged as they could be. All in all, I 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:58.429 think the best thing to do is simply to ask, 0:17:58.700 --> 0:18:00.470 you know, you might say something like, I'm having a 0:18:00.470 --> 0:18:04.700 great time and I hope that you are to test will. 0:18:04.700 --> 0:18:07.700 I'm certainly having a fantastic time with this interview. It 0:18:07.700 --> 0:18:11.840 sounds like there's a lot of non visual cues that 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:14.240 can be given to how much somebody is laughing, how 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:16.699 much they're participating in the conversation. It's never good if 0:18:16.700 --> 0:18:19.850 it's a one sided conversation, is it? But how important 0:18:19.850 --> 0:18:22.160 would you say body language is Sarah? 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:26.000 Yeah, I think it's really important your own body language 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:28.550 and how you're coming across and also their body language 0:18:28.550 --> 0:18:31.280 and how they're coming across. There's non visual like those 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:35.150 little touches or little giggles or how close they fit 0:18:35.150 --> 0:18:39.470 into you. Body language can also affect confidence. Be aware 0:18:39.470 --> 0:18:42.199 of how, how you're sitting and listening to how they're 0:18:42.260 --> 0:18:44.060 moving and negotiating their space. 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:47.900 That's it's also really important to remember, however, that body 0:18:47.900 --> 0:18:51.620 language can be different for different cultures. So if you 0:18:51.619 --> 0:18:55.189 are dating someone who is a different culture to you 0:18:55.460 --> 0:18:58.580 and your observing body language that you might find questionable, 0:18:58.609 --> 0:19:01.610 maybe they're not looking at you. Maybe they're not close 0:19:01.609 --> 0:19:05.270 to you. You might just use a verbal communication to 0:19:05.270 --> 0:19:05.960 check in. 0:19:06.290 --> 0:19:11.540 So, Sarah, you have you experienced online dating apps? And 0:19:11.540 --> 0:19:14.750 if so, how have you found them? Have they been accessible? 0:19:15.410 --> 0:19:18.500 Well, for me, with the technology I use, I use 0:19:18.500 --> 0:19:23.360 all Apple products. I use the Zoom feature, the narrator picture. 0:19:23.420 --> 0:19:26.690 So for me, being my vision, that's all I need 0:19:26.690 --> 0:19:29.510 to access those kind of apps. I know we've had 0:19:29.930 --> 0:19:32.629 one participant in the table for one group, the site 0:19:32.630 --> 0:19:35.840 at some and not very accessible, but then others are 0:19:36.109 --> 0:19:38.780 so seems that what technology are using and how you 0:19:38.780 --> 0:19:39.200 use it? 0:19:39.260 --> 0:19:42.680 What about you, Namoi? What's been your experience with online 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:44.720 dating apps? Have they been accessible? 0:19:44.750 --> 0:19:49.909 Tess, I'm a bit of a dinosaur. The last online 0:19:49.910 --> 0:19:53.119 dating app I used involved smoke signals on a rock. 0:19:54.990 --> 0:19:58.760 I have been out of the dating game for quite 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.600 some time, so I don't unfortunately have any knowledge about 0:20:02.930 --> 0:20:06.830 online apps other than to say it really depends on 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:09.710 how you use them. Some people who I've spoken to 0:20:09.710 --> 0:20:13.220 have found that using them as a means to put 0:20:13.220 --> 0:20:17.360 yourself out there and attracts people works is because you're 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:21.890 able to then view their profiles once they've accepted your 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:24.320 like or swipe or whatever the word is you use 0:20:24.330 --> 0:20:27.650 these days. While other people use it just as a 0:20:27.650 --> 0:20:31.010 as an advertisement tool, so they might put up their photos, 0:20:31.010 --> 0:20:34.070 they might get someone to assist them to build their 0:20:34.070 --> 0:20:37.100 profile so that they have a pool of people to 0:20:37.100 --> 0:20:37.910 work with later on. 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:41.120 So can I throw in just a rogue question? Here's 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.570 the scenario you're on a date with someone. Let's say 0:20:44.570 --> 0:20:46.820 it's in a cafe, you've got a coffee, you're not 0:20:46.820 --> 0:20:50.210 getting any good vibes from them. It's just tumbleweed talking crickets, 0:20:50.210 --> 0:20:52.490 I believe you say in Australia. How do you get 0:20:52.490 --> 0:20:55.340 out of that situation if you're saying not, this is 0:20:55.340 --> 0:20:56.510 really not going anywhere? 0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:00.950 Well, it has happened on one date, although I think 0:21:00.950 --> 0:21:04.340 he was interested, but I was there and he mentioned 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:08.419 the prospect of a second date. And I'm like, No, 0:21:08.420 --> 0:21:11.720 thank you very much. It's been nice and you're lovely, 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:13.400 but no thank you. I won't have a second date, 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:15.980 so it kind of just naturally the carousel. 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:18.619 So just just be honest, then. 0:21:19.340 --> 0:21:22.340 Yeah, just be honest. It's like you might. What are 0:21:22.340 --> 0:21:22.940 you afraid of? 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:26.540 Usually, Sarah and I disagree quite often on these things, 0:21:26.540 --> 0:21:30.080 but this time we are in agreement. I think it's 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:33.320 best to respect yourself and your time and the other 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:36.500 person's time. So if you're really not feeling it, you 0:21:36.500 --> 0:21:41.480 might just politely leave. If you are someone who maybe 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:45.560 feels less confident about politely leaving, you might set yourself 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:48.619 up with a friend to give you a call about 0:21:48.619 --> 0:21:51.530 halfway through your date, just so you can pretend to 0:21:51.530 --> 0:21:55.310 have a way out for dinner. You might pull out 0:21:55.310 --> 0:21:58.040 your phone and pretend that vibrated in your pocket. And oh, 0:21:58.040 --> 0:21:59.690 I've got to go. My cat's on fire. 0:22:01.310 --> 0:22:02.120 I knew you'd have 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:03.350 something for us, Nimoy's 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:07.219 whatever works for you. I think the most important rule 0:22:07.220 --> 0:22:10.970 is that if you're feeling unsafe or this just isn't 0:22:10.970 --> 0:22:12.800 for you, it's best to speak up. 0:22:12.950 --> 0:22:17.330 You guys are the co facilitators of Table for one. 0:22:17.450 --> 0:22:19.580 Can you tell us a little bit about that and 0:22:19.580 --> 0:22:21.949 why you decided to facilitate it? 0:22:22.130 --> 0:22:25.850 I think I found myself in this position of online 0:22:25.850 --> 0:22:29.330 dating at this stage, and I thought it would be 0:22:29.330 --> 0:22:31.340 nice to surround myself with a community of people who 0:22:31.340 --> 0:22:34.190 are kind of experienced a similar situation. Just find out 0:22:34.460 --> 0:22:36.770 the different strategies that people are using and see if 0:22:37.100 --> 0:22:39.560 we could swap stories and hear what's going on and 0:22:39.830 --> 0:22:43.340 see what works for some people and hopefully share that 0:22:43.340 --> 0:22:44.870 advice with others and nimmo. 0:22:44.900 --> 0:22:48.470 You also could facilitate it. How have you found and 0:22:48.470 --> 0:22:50.810 what has been the response from people who are blind 0:22:50.810 --> 0:22:51.650 or have low vision? 0:22:51.740 --> 0:22:55.669 Or I had the pleasure of co facilitating the first 0:22:55.670 --> 0:22:58.640 table for one group? What's there? But now I I 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:01.909 no longer do Sarah fly solo. She's she's kicked me out. 0:23:03.050 --> 0:23:07.460 But the reason why I wanted to co facilitate table 0:23:07.460 --> 0:23:10.730 for one was simply because at Vision Australia, we say 0:23:10.730 --> 0:23:13.070 that we want to help people who are blind or 0:23:13.070 --> 0:23:15.530 who have the vision to participate in every part of 0:23:15.530 --> 0:23:18.950 life that they choose. And I think building relationships is 0:23:18.950 --> 0:23:24.020 a really important part of living a great life. And 0:23:24.020 --> 0:23:26.960 so I wanted to. While I don't have all the answers. 0:23:27.050 --> 0:23:30.920 Create a forum where people could share those answers. We 0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:33.770 could celebrate together or commiserate with each other. 0:23:34.369 --> 0:23:37.250 I had no idea what I was doing when I 0:23:37.250 --> 0:23:40.129 first started dating, so much so that I joined a 0:23:40.130 --> 0:23:43.940 website called The Pink SOFA, which got, you know, I mean, 0:23:43.940 --> 0:23:45.860 I had no idea how to use it. I had 0:23:45.859 --> 0:23:47.689 no idea how to, you know? All I knew was 0:23:47.690 --> 0:23:49.610 it was a lesbian dating site. I didn't know more 0:23:49.609 --> 0:23:52.120 than that. So say that you. Talking to a real 0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:55.540 rookie of the dating world, what would be your main advice? 0:23:55.900 --> 0:23:58.760 Find out what it is you feel you bring to 0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:02.230 our relationship. Confidence is about knowing what it is you 0:24:02.230 --> 0:24:05.199 have to offer. There's nothing more boring than asking someone 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:09.169 what they do for fun. And I don't know. It's 0:24:09.290 --> 0:24:12.790 it's I think if you don't know what you have 0:24:12.790 --> 0:24:16.330 to offer, then you probably shouldn't be dating. You should 0:24:16.330 --> 0:24:20.370 be spending time getting to know yourself, appreciate yourself. And 0:24:20.619 --> 0:24:23.770 and dare I say it, love yourself. And then when 0:24:23.770 --> 0:24:26.619 you enter into a relationship with someone, they don't have 0:24:26.619 --> 0:24:30.250 to be your everything because you are your everything, and 0:24:30.250 --> 0:24:32.050 they're just a great addition. 0:24:32.230 --> 0:24:34.720 What's your take on this and what would be your 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:36.160 advice for a dating rookie? 0:24:36.609 --> 0:24:38.560 This is been one of those occasions where in the 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:41.919 moment I disagree because I think it's always good to 0:24:41.920 --> 0:24:45.399 learn on the job, so I would encourage people to 0:24:45.880 --> 0:24:48.850 get out there and try it. Do your research first, 0:24:48.850 --> 0:24:50.770 though we did in Table four when we did a 0:24:50.770 --> 0:24:55.030 whole session on slang used in dating apps. So there's 0:24:55.030 --> 0:24:58.419 all these abbreviations you'd need to kind of find out 0:24:58.420 --> 0:25:00.280 what they mean or they can get you into trouble. 0:25:00.359 --> 0:25:02.350 So do some research. Find out what you need to 0:25:02.350 --> 0:25:05.800 include in your profile. Your pictures are important. Get out 0:25:05.800 --> 0:25:07.510 there and give it a go and have fun. 0:25:07.570 --> 0:25:11.619 Also also consider why you're wanting to date. That makes 0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:14.739 the whole dating process a whole lot easier. Are you 0:25:14.740 --> 0:25:19.720 wanting to date casually? Are you looking for your Mr. 0:25:19.720 --> 0:25:22.840 Right or Mrs. Right? Or are you looking for your Mr. 0:25:22.840 --> 0:25:26.050 or Mrs. right now? Decide that before you start dating 0:25:26.230 --> 0:25:28.600 now, I would say that it's probably a really good idea, 0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:31.240 not to mention a whole list of obscure references to 0:25:31.240 --> 0:25:36.419 British comedies that nobody's heard of. That's something I kind 0:25:36.490 --> 0:25:37.480 of like. You know, 0:25:37.490 --> 0:25:39.310 I it's the wrong elements, 0:25:40.240 --> 0:25:40.640 guys. 0:25:40.780 --> 0:25:43.930 It's just been the biggest pleasure it really has. It's 0:25:43.930 --> 0:25:46.659 been wonderful to chat to you both and hear all 0:25:46.660 --> 0:25:50.440 your insights, sometimes agreeing with each other, sometimes disagreeing. I 0:25:50.440 --> 0:25:54.220 think it's more fun when we disagree. Thank you so 0:25:54.220 --> 0:25:57.040 very much for being with us today. Thank you. 0:25:57.460 --> 0:25:58.480 Absolute pleasure. 0:25:58.900 --> 0:26:02.139 And this is just the start of the conversation about dating. 0:26:02.470 --> 0:26:05.980 More information and some useful resources can be found on 0:26:05.980 --> 0:26:09.760 the Vision Australia websites, including an interview with guest and 0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:12.820 friends of the show Sara Taylor, who gives her five 0:26:12.820 --> 0:26:15.490 dating tips for people who are blind or have low vision, 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:17.530 and I'll try and persuade her to share that list 0:26:17.530 --> 0:26:19.330 of dating app abbreviations as well. 0:26:19.510 --> 0:26:22.959 Remember this episode in earlier episodes of Nothing's Off Limits 0:26:23.200 --> 0:26:26.379 is available to download from the Vision Australia website. Just 0:26:26.380 --> 0:26:30.460 go to Vision Australia dot org. That's Vision Australia dot 0:26:30.460 --> 0:26:34.000 org type. Nothing's off limits into the search engine, and 0:26:34.000 --> 0:26:36.310 you will be directed to our wonderful web page where 0:26:36.310 --> 0:26:39.100 you can check this episode out and other episodes. And 0:26:39.100 --> 0:26:41.609 please do subscribe because you don't want to miss any 0:26:41.619 --> 0:26:43.930 or you can just tune in Division Australia Radio if 0:26:43.930 --> 0:26:46.389 that involves less internet searching. Because, you know, we all 0:26:46.390 --> 0:26:48.220 know we don't like having to search for things very often. 0:26:49.090 --> 0:26:54.040 And next time we'll be talking about adult services and entertainment, 0:26:54.040 --> 0:26:56.170 so shoo the kids out of the room for that one. 0:26:56.470 --> 0:26:58.480 We've got a couple of great guests who you may 0:26:58.480 --> 0:27:02.350 recognize from earlier episodes of this podcast, but until then, 0:27:02.350 --> 0:27:05.710 thank you again to our fantastic guests and thank you 0:27:05.710 --> 0:27:08.440 for joining us for the show. When nothing's off limits. 0:27:13.780 --> 0:27:17.709 That was nothing's off limits. 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