S1: Nothing's off limits, things off limits, bringing together experts and
S1: people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love
S1: to avoid, but absolutely need to talk about me with
S1: the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages
S1: and capacity building grant and grants.
S2: Hello, and welcome to this next episode of Nothing's Off Limits.
S2: My name is Tess, and together with my co-host Polly,
S2: we're going to be delving into some of those subjects
S2: which we might normally consider off limits, such as dating,
S2: adult entertainment, identity and more. We'll be exploring them openly
S2: and honestly through the specific lens of blindness and low
S2: vision with the help of our expert guests.
S3: This podcast is available to be downloaded on the Vision
S3: Australia website, and you can find out more information about
S3: where to find our web page at the end of
S3: the show. But in this episode, we are talking about dating,
S3: and there are a number of ways we can go
S3: about meeting potential dates. Some people might go to speed
S3: dating events or singles parties, and others may look online,
S3: and there are many online dating sites, including Tinder, eHarmony, OkCupid,
S3: Hinge and Bumble. And they enable you to view the
S3: profiles of people anywhere in the world and interact with
S3: them by sharing messages and photos. And in spite of
S3: the benefits this may provide, it also presents a number
S3: of challenges, particularly for people with a disability. Some of
S3: the most common challenges include the issue of whether or
S3: not to disclose that you have a disability and how
S3: to remain safe and comfortable when meeting someone you've only
S3: spoken to online. Unfortunately, these issues can become obstacles to
S3: people with a disability feeling confident to explore the world
S3: of online dating. Is that something that resonates with you?
S3: It really
S2: does poly. I've experienced the world of online dating and look,
S2: everyone's different. I don't know if dating as somebody who's
S2: gay is different is similar to dating as somebody who's straight,
S2: but I've always wondered whether to disclose my blindness, whether
S2: or not to. There's been problems with accessibility of certain sites,
S2: so that's sort of limited my options in some way.
S2: So I can quite understand how a lot of people
S2: with disabilities might be prevented from exploring the world of
S2: dating by by some of the challenges that we face
S2: today with modern dating. Well, to
S3: help us address some of these challenges, we have a
S3: great lineup of guests and we'll introduce them in a moment.
S3: But first we asked you how you approached the challenges
S3: of dating, and we got some really interesting answers.
S1: Nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly Polly. What's the
S1: hardest thing about dating? I don't think it differs too
S1: much with a blind, low vision or completely sighted. It's
S1: just that saying hello and making that first contact.
S4: Good question. Wait a minute. Posit there for a second.
S4: The hardest thing about dating is getting over negative self-talk.
S1: Oh wow, that's profound. Most people would say the options
S1: that are out there,
S4: I think the the options that are out there are
S4: dictated by how you see yourself. You limit your own
S4: options by going, Oh, look, I'm not good enough for
S4: that person or how do you know that you know
S4: that person is outside my lead? Or how do you
S4: know that you're limiting yourself by the way you see
S4: yourself
S5: or to be truthful? Jason, I'm completely hopeless in this area,
S5: and I haven't done much of it, and I need
S5: to do more of it. But I think the hardest
S5: thing is that a lot of initial attraction is visual,
S5: and it's those non those sort of visual cues that
S5: can begin attraction. And when you can't see, you don't
S5: have that connection, that early connection with people, it's hard
S5: to actually strike up that connection. So then you have
S5: all the online dating apps, and I can't talk about it,
S5: but I've never done it. I feel like I don't
S5: feel particularly comfortable and straying into that area, even though
S5: probably that's what I do need to do.
S6: Oh, these days, I think it's because there's so much
S6: competition out there. Also, social media, I think in some
S6: ways makes it harder. I think the challenge is today's
S6: if people use the Tindal, another sort of dating platforms
S6: and there's the whole issue about disclosure, do I disclose
S6: that I'm visually impaired or not? And then this whole
S6: anxiety thing about sort of meeting up someone and having
S6: to reveal the fact that you're visually impaired? It's it's
S6: it's probably a lot more challenging than what it's ever been.
S6: In some ways. A lot of people, I think, just
S6: give up.
S7: To me, this is a little bit like the whole
S7: finding employment thing. It's like, when do you disclose my
S7: vision impairment isn't very obvious to someone just looking at
S7: me at first glance, this is really weird dance that
S7: I have to do, not just with dating with everybody.
S7: When they start to notice that I'm not looking at
S7: them straight on or I'm not able to see something,
S7: there's a sort of a point between where it becomes awkward.
S7: And I don't want to say something and where I
S7: probably should have stepped in and said, something's dating. Sites
S7: always say that eye contact is the most important thing,
S7: which is really daunting when you can't make eye contact.
S1: You're listening to Nothing's Off Limits, which is entirely produced
S1: by Vision Australia radio.
S2: It's time. You welcome our first guest for this episode,
S2: Adelina Holloway, a mentor and passionate advocate for people who
S2: are blind or have low vision to have their voices heard.
S2: After 27 years of marriage, Adelina decided to explore the
S2: world of online dating, and she's here to tell us
S2: all about it. Lena, welcome. Thank you for joining us.
S3: And let's go straight in. What made you decide to
S3: explore online dating?
S8: Well, as you mentioned, I'd been with the same pattern
S8: of for 27 years, married for 20 of those years.
S8: And yeah, about three and a half years ago we
S8: split it, knocked the wind out of myself, so to speak,
S8: and I wondered how I would get along in the
S8: world alone, let alone alone with someone with low vision.
S8: It took me a while to learn how to be
S8: alone and and I realized after a little while that
S8: I just didn't want to be. I come from an
S8: Italian background where intimacy, passion, connection with other people, all
S8: that sort of thing is very much ingrained in me.
S8: So I knew I could never get through, get along
S8: in this world without a partner. I was about 18
S8: months into reconciling with my divorce or my separation that
S8: I'd give a colleague of mine sort of had some
S8: success with one of the dating sites, and I thought
S8: I resisted and resisted and then thought, Well, what the hell?
S8: And on I went.
S3: And what were some of the challenges that came with
S3: online dating?
S8: I got a lot of attention on there, which I
S8: wasn't expecting. Yeah, so I guess it was just trying
S8: to weed out who the scammers were and how the who,
S8: the ones that were worth perhaps chatting to and then
S8: deciding at what point do I disclose my vision impairment?
S8: Once I realized I wanted to meet that person and
S8: make that meet the person, you know, face to face.
S8: So that was challenging as far as I've got enough
S8: vision that I was able to see the photographs. Accessibility
S8: wasn't too much of an issue for me. Yeah, look,
S8: disclosure was the biggest thing to me, I think, yeah.
S3: And can you tell us a bit more about that?
S3: Because that feels like such a personal choice and particularly
S3: with online dating and as you said, if you're maybe
S3: low vision, so there's less maybe visual cues that might
S3: indicate that you have a vision loss. How did you
S3: go about that?
S8: I think I made the decision that I wouldn't do
S8: it in the app. I wanted to give myself the
S8: best chance of finding someone that accepted me for me
S8: before they stereotype me as, you know, the blind girl,
S8: you know? So that was a decision I made, whether
S8: it be right or wrong that I wouldn't disclose in
S8: the app. Like, I wouldn't say that I was, that
S8: I had a vision impairment in the app. Then I
S8: had to decide whether I would do it when I
S8: had conversations or face time, conversations or whatever. And often
S8: I grappled with that a little bit because texting that
S8: someone can become quite intimate and and it's almost like
S8: I felt at times that I was being a bit
S8: of a fraud because I wouldn't wasn't telling them the
S8: whole truth about myself. Having said that, I soon found
S8: out that I had met people that were so different
S8: from the person I was speaking to. So, you know
S8: who was the fraud? Yeah, so but I decided I
S8: didn't disclose in the first few dates if I wanted
S8: it to go to a second date or further than that,
S8: then I would disclose. There were times where I just
S8: went on, I need to get out of here and
S8: it's not worth my energy to disclose. And and then
S8: and then if I knew there it some potential for
S8: it to go further, then yeah, I disclosed I would
S8: say that, you know, but just pieces at a time.
S8: I didn't give my whole life story. I gave pieces
S8: at a time and what I felt I needed to
S8: know at that time. But soon found out that that
S8: probably wasn't the right tack, because I yeah, it kind
S8: of backfired on me a couple of times. Yeah, I
S8: can tell that story.
S9: If you want me to. I feel like we have
S9: to ask the question Well. Okay. Yeah.
S8: So and it's with because of I mean, I went
S8: on many, many dates and somewhat short term. Some didn't
S8: go past the first date. But I just talk about
S8: the current one that's been about eight months in now,
S8: and I sat with him one night over a drink
S8: and I sort of said, you know, when would you
S8: have like me to disclose? He obviously knows now. He said,
S8: I would like you to have disclosed on the first night.
S8: I said, why? He said, Because I thought you weren't
S8: into me. And I went, Why? He said, Because you
S8: weren't making any eye contact with me over dinner. And
S8: then when we got intimate, he again said during, you know,
S8: the throes of passion for want of a better word.
S8: I said I wasn't making any eye contact. I wasn't
S8: looking at him. So he said to me, I just
S8: thought you weren't into me. Couple of days later, he
S8: rang me and he said, I don't I don't think
S8: this is going to work. And I hadn't disclosed at
S8: this stage and I said why? And he said, it's
S8: clear that you're not into me. I just think you're
S8: perhaps too good for me the way you look or
S8: that sort of thing. I'm not, you know, you just
S8: you weren't making any eye contact with me and I
S8: just went, Oh gosh, I can't. I've got to tell
S8: you something. This is the reason why I wasn't making
S8: eye contact with you. And he went, Oh God, why
S8: didn't you tell me? He said, Now it makes sense. So, yeah,
S8: that was my story about that, Ben. I'm still with
S8: that particular gentleman, so
S1: I knew it wasn't me. JJ Sutherland, I chime in
S1: and did.
S9: And I had to say I have to just
S8: add a little bit the other way that this guy
S8: is on air or not, but it kind of had
S8: a knock on effect to, Oh gosh, how do I
S8: say this to his performance? Now I actually rang a
S8: friend of mine, a gay male friend, and said, there's
S8: such a thing as performance anxiety said, Hell yeah. They said,
S8: What are you talking about? Tell me the story. And
S8: I said, Well, this is the story. And he went,
S8: Oh God, I'm intimidated by you, let alone, you know? Yeah,
S8: you know, someone who is not only intimidated by the
S8: way you look, but then you don't make any eye
S8: contact with him and you're not one of the poor
S8: guy couldn't perform. So, you know, oh, poor bloke.
S9: Oh, as soon as I disclosed,
S8: everything
S9: changed. Oh gosh, say I overshare, Love it. I love it.
S9: Thank you.
S8: They describe it as a good thing.
S3: So that's a really insightful story. And I guess now
S3: you're a few months down the line. I guess that's
S3: another thing that we've spoken about in the past around.
S3: If you have a disability, that is danger, the right
S3: word of part where the lines are between a partner
S3: and someone who's supporting you around some of the aspects
S3: of your disability. Yeah. Has that come up at all
S3: with your current relationship or previous relationships? And how do
S3: you kind of navigate that sort of dual relationship?
S8: Yeah, look a bit of both. I mean, I have
S8: disclosed to other partners in the past, and you can
S8: almost see a shift from them seeing you as an,
S8: you know, an attractive, independent sort of woman to someone
S8: who needs help. You know, I had to say to
S8: me that, you know, Oh, now I can see the
S8: vulnerability in you. And now that makes sense because you know,
S8: there are certain situations where you're not as confident and
S8: that sort of thing. And you know, I've had partners
S8: completely flip it on their head. They were just they
S8: were just now, you know, wanting to completely control what
S8: I did, you know, and check in on me and
S8: and guide me when I didn't need to be guided and,
S8: you know, over handle me and that sort of thing.
S8: And I think I've said to you in the past that,
S8: you know, if I wanted, if I wanted that, I'd
S8: employ a support worker, you know, and that's not what
S8: I want. So but it's tricky because sometimes I do
S8: need the help. It's a very fine line between wanting
S8: to be, you know, somewhat normal or sighted, you know,
S8: to someone who needs help and when you fiercely independent.
S8: And I've had my current partner say to me, You know,
S8: you just need to tell me when I can help you,
S8: because sometimes when he goes to help me, I'll I'll go, No, no,
S8: I don't need the help. And he's like, You need
S8: to kind of tell me, I can't read your mind.
S8: I need to know. And with my particular condition, I
S8: p it's very environmental, so someday I can function very,
S8: very well and some lighting conditions and other times I'm
S8: totally blind. So especially in the dark, it's really tricky.
S8: It's it's such a fine line, but I guess the
S8: answer is that it's just all about communication and it's
S8: about me letting my guard down, telling the truth. It
S8: took me a long time to even talk about my
S8: mobility needs, you know, around my dog and and that
S8: sort of thing.
S3: Adelina, thank you so much for coming on and being
S3: so generous with your experience and your insights around this.
S3: I was particularly struck by something you said right at
S3: the beginning around, you know, spending some time alone with
S3: yourself and deciding if being with someone is what you wanted,
S3: because I think that's a really good point to meet.
S3: You may not need anyone in that in that respect.
S3: So I'm I'm really glad that you made that point.
S3: But thank you so much for coming on, Adelina and
S3: most welcome and wonderful to talk to you.
S8: Take care. OK, thanks, guys.
S1: You're listening to nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly.
S1: Did you know Vision Australia runs Tally Link, a virtual
S1: social program that connects like minded people across a wide
S1: range of interest areas nationally, either through telephone or video conferencing?
S1: For more information go to Vision Australia dot org or
S1: call one 800 eight four seven four double six. Vision
S1: Australia Blindness Low Vision Opportunity I'd
S3: now like to introduce two guests Sarah Taylor and Namoi
S3: Malcolm Sarah and the more you have lived. Experience of
S3: online dating and code facilitate the Tele Link Group table
S3: for one, which provides information and insights about dating from
S3: a blindness and low vision perspective. Sarah Namoi Thank you
S3: so much for joining us today.
S9: Thanks for having me.
S10: Absolute pleasure.
S2: How does your low vision impacted much on your dating experience, Sarah?
S2: Would you like to get through
S9: this one where it counts? Interpersonal communication and chatting and
S9: getting to know people? I would say no. Practically like
S9: using apps and getting out and about. I would say it.
S10: So for me, dating as a person with vision loss
S10: was very interesting, one that started when I was 18.
S10: The hardest part of dating with a visual impairment or
S10: with double vision, as I had at that time, was
S10: probably just building my confidence, meet people and to demonstrate
S10: that I was worthy of being dated.
S2: What are some ways that you can engage with confidence
S2: when you're meeting someone for the first time, but make
S2: sure that you're feeling safe?
S10: Namoi Look, I would say that to engage with other people,
S10: you first need to be engaging to mount smiling at people.
S10: It's about making people feel like you are approachable. And
S10: then it's probably about taking that shot, feeling comfortable and
S10: confident and saying hello. Some people like to use that
S10: are funny anecdotes. Some people like to wear things that
S10: give the person you want to talk to. Something to
S10: talk about. Something to open the conversation with, which is
S10: a lot of reason why. If you're a dog user
S10: or a cane user, that's what people open with, because
S10: it's something you've given them to talk to you about.
S2: Because starting a conversation, you know, especially with one who
S2: isn't particularly chatty, it's really not fun, is it? I've
S2: had the experience of meeting a couple of women who
S2: I've just instantly clicked with, and then the experience of
S2: meeting with a woman who basically sat there with monosyllabic answers.
S2: So it's always good. It sounds like if it's something
S2: to start the conversation, what do you think, Sarah?
S9: I think it's about having your confidence, having your own
S9: skills up so you feel confident to walk in there
S9: and leave with confidence. I think for me, having being
S9: familiar with the venue, kind of knowing your area kind
S9: of gives me that confidence, being able to trust yourself
S9: that you can handle the situation
S2: and having a familiar venue. Could that be like a
S2: café or a bar or around people that you've met before?
S9: Sure. For me, I prefer kind of coffee dates, so
S9: daytime date. So it's a bit easier and there's more
S9: people around and I just feel safer and more casual
S9: and Namoi.
S2: What indicators can you use to tell if a date
S2: is going well?
S10: Well, I think there are two types of indicators that
S10: the indicators that you're giving us and the indicators that
S10: you're picking up on. So the indicators that may help
S10: you to know if the date is going well, the
S10: indicators that you're giving off are things like, are you
S10: feeling tense? You know, are you having those racing thoughts
S10: in your mind? Are you having those butterflies in your stomach?
S10: What's your gut saying to you? Your gut saying this
S10: is going well and the things that you might be
S10: listening for, you might be listening for whether or not
S10: the person is laughing, whether or not the person is
S10: engaged with you, whether or not the conversation is flowing.
S10: It might also be listening for cues like the person
S10: is looking away or their voice. If you're someone who
S10: has no vision, their voice may be looking after the
S10: left or to the right or down looking for those
S10: sort of cues that tell you that maybe they're not
S10: as engaged as they could be. All in all, I
S10: think the best thing to do is simply to ask,
S10: you know, you might say something like, I'm having a
S10: great time and I hope that you are to test will.
S2: I'm certainly having a fantastic time with this interview. It
S2: sounds like there's a lot of non visual cues that
S2: can be given to how much somebody is laughing, how
S2: much they're participating in the conversation. It's never good if
S2: it's a one sided conversation, is it? But how important
S2: would you say body language is Sarah?
S9: Yeah, I think it's really important your own body language
S9: and how you're coming across and also their body language
S9: and how they're coming across. There's non visual like those
S9: little touches or little giggles or how close they fit
S9: into you. Body language can also affect confidence. Be aware
S9: of how, how you're sitting and listening to how they're
S9: moving and negotiating their space.
S10: That's it's also really important to remember, however, that body
S10: language can be different for different cultures. So if you
S10: are dating someone who is a different culture to you
S10: and your observing body language that you might find questionable,
S10: maybe they're not looking at you. Maybe they're not close
S10: to you. You might just use a verbal communication to
S10: check in.
S2: So, Sarah, you have you experienced online dating apps? And
S2: if so, how have you found them? Have they been accessible?
S9: Well, for me, with the technology I use, I use
S9: all Apple products. I use the Zoom feature, the narrator picture.
S9: So for me, being my vision, that's all I need
S9: to access those kind of apps. I know we've had
S9: one participant in the table for one group, the site
S9: at some and not very accessible, but then others are
S9: so seems that what technology are using and how you
S9: use it?
S2: What about you, Namoi? What's been your experience with online
S2: dating apps? Have they been accessible?
S10: Tess, I'm a bit of a dinosaur. The last online
S10: dating app I used involved smoke signals on a rock.
S10: I have been out of the dating game for quite
S10: some time, so I don't unfortunately have any knowledge about
S10: online apps other than to say it really depends on
S10: how you use them. Some people who I've spoken to
S10: have found that using them as a means to put
S10: yourself out there and attracts people works is because you're
S10: able to then view their profiles once they've accepted your
S10: like or swipe or whatever the word is you use
S10: these days. While other people use it just as a
S10: as an advertisement tool, so they might put up their photos,
S10: they might get someone to assist them to build their
S10: profile so that they have a pool of people to
S10: work with later on.
S3: So can I throw in just a rogue question? Here's
S3: the scenario you're on a date with someone. Let's say
S3: it's in a cafe, you've got a coffee, you're not
S3: getting any good vibes from them. It's just tumbleweed talking crickets,
S3: I believe you say in Australia. How do you get
S3: out of that situation if you're saying not, this is
S3: really not going anywhere?
S9: Well, it has happened on one date, although I think
S9: he was interested, but I was there and he mentioned
S9: the prospect of a second date. And I'm like, No,
S9: thank you very much. It's been nice and you're lovely,
S9: but no thank you. I won't have a second date,
S9: so it kind of just naturally the carousel.
S3: So just just be honest, then.
S9: Yeah, just be honest. It's like you might. What are
S9: you afraid of?
S10: Usually, Sarah and I disagree quite often on these things,
S10: but this time we are in agreement. I think it's
S10: best to respect yourself and your time and the other
S10: person's time. So if you're really not feeling it, you
S10: might just politely leave. If you are someone who maybe
S10: feels less confident about politely leaving, you might set yourself
S10: up with a friend to give you a call about
S10: halfway through your date, just so you can pretend to
S10: have a way out for dinner. You might pull out
S10: your phone and pretend that vibrated in your pocket. And oh,
S10: I've got to go. My cat's on fire.
S3: I knew you'd have
S9: something for us, Nimoy's
S10: whatever works for you. I think the most important rule
S10: is that if you're feeling unsafe or this just isn't
S10: for you, it's best to speak up.
S2: You guys are the co facilitators of Table for one.
S2: Can you tell us a little bit about that and
S2: why you decided to facilitate it?
S9: I think I found myself in this position of online
S9: dating at this stage, and I thought it would be
S9: nice to surround myself with a community of people who
S9: are kind of experienced a similar situation. Just find out
S9: the different strategies that people are using and see if
S9: we could swap stories and hear what's going on and
S9: see what works for some people and hopefully share that
S9: advice with others and nimmo.
S2: You also could facilitate it. How have you found and
S2: what has been the response from people who are blind
S2: or have low vision?
S10: Or I had the pleasure of co facilitating the first
S10: table for one group? What's there? But now I I
S10: no longer do Sarah fly solo. She's she's kicked me out.
S10: But the reason why I wanted to co facilitate table
S10: for one was simply because at Vision Australia, we say
S10: that we want to help people who are blind or
S10: who have the vision to participate in every part of
S10: life that they choose. And I think building relationships is
S10: a really important part of living a great life. And
S10: so I wanted to. While I don't have all the answers.
S10: Create a forum where people could share those answers. We
S10: could celebrate together or commiserate with each other.
S2: I had no idea what I was doing when I
S2: first started dating, so much so that I joined a
S2: website called The Pink SOFA, which got, you know, I mean,
S2: I had no idea how to use it. I had
S2: no idea how to, you know? All I knew was
S2: it was a lesbian dating site. I didn't know more
S2: than that. So say that you. Talking to a real
S2: rookie of the dating world, what would be your main advice?
S10: Find out what it is you feel you bring to
S10: our relationship. Confidence is about knowing what it is you
S10: have to offer. There's nothing more boring than asking someone
S10: what they do for fun. And I don't know. It's
S10: it's I think if you don't know what you have
S10: to offer, then you probably shouldn't be dating. You should
S10: be spending time getting to know yourself, appreciate yourself. And
S10: and dare I say it, love yourself. And then when
S10: you enter into a relationship with someone, they don't have
S10: to be your everything because you are your everything, and
S10: they're just a great addition.
S2: What's your take on this and what would be your
S2: advice for a dating rookie?
S9: This is been one of those occasions where in the
S9: moment I disagree because I think it's always good to
S9: learn on the job, so I would encourage people to
S9: get out there and try it. Do your research first,
S9: though we did in Table four when we did a
S9: whole session on slang used in dating apps. So there's
S9: all these abbreviations you'd need to kind of find out
S9: what they mean or they can get you into trouble.
S9: So do some research. Find out what you need to
S9: include in your profile. Your pictures are important. Get out
S9: there and give it a go and have fun.
S10: Also also consider why you're wanting to date. That makes
S10: the whole dating process a whole lot easier. Are you
S10: wanting to date casually? Are you looking for your Mr.
S10: Right or Mrs. Right? Or are you looking for your Mr.
S10: or Mrs. right now? Decide that before you start dating
S2: now, I would say that it's probably a really good idea,
S2: not to mention a whole list of obscure references to
S2: British comedies that nobody's heard of. That's something I kind
S2: of like. You know,
S3: I it's the wrong elements,
S9: guys.
S2: It's just been the biggest pleasure it really has. It's
S2: been wonderful to chat to you both and hear all
S2: your insights, sometimes agreeing with each other, sometimes disagreeing. I
S2: think it's more fun when we disagree. Thank you so
S2: very much for being with us today. Thank you.
S10: Absolute pleasure.
S3: And this is just the start of the conversation about dating.
S3: More information and some useful resources can be found on
S3: the Vision Australia websites, including an interview with guest and
S3: friends of the show Sara Taylor, who gives her five
S3: dating tips for people who are blind or have low vision,
S3: and I'll try and persuade her to share that list
S3: of dating app abbreviations as well.
S2: Remember this episode in earlier episodes of Nothing's Off Limits
S2: is available to download from the Vision Australia website. Just
S2: go to Vision Australia dot org. That's Vision Australia dot
S2: org type. Nothing's off limits into the search engine, and
S2: you will be directed to our wonderful web page where
S2: you can check this episode out and other episodes. And
S2: please do subscribe because you don't want to miss any
S2: or you can just tune in Division Australia Radio if
S2: that involves less internet searching. Because, you know, we all
S2: know we don't like having to search for things very often.
S3: And next time we'll be talking about adult services and entertainment,
S3: so shoo the kids out of the room for that one.
S3: We've got a couple of great guests who you may
S3: recognize from earlier episodes of this podcast, but until then,
S3: thank you again to our fantastic guests and thank you
S3: for joining us for the show. When nothing's off limits.
S1: That was nothing's off limits. Made with a supporter of
S1: his in Australia and the endless information linkages capability building grants.
S1: Learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting
S1: VOA Radio, dot org and access all there is to
S1: know about our range of client services via our website.
S1: Vision Australia dot org. We thank everyone who participated in
S1: this episode, but especially you for listening today. We rely
S1: on your support, so please share this podcast with just
S1: one person today and brighten our day or rate us
S1: on your preferred podcast platform. Bye for now.