WEBVTT - Digital Accessibility with Glenn Wilson 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:20.479 Hello and welcome to In Plain Sight, a program where 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.119 we highlight people who are making a positive impact in 0:00:23.119 --> 0:00:25.439 the community and disability sector. 0:00:25.439 --> 0:00:28.320 Shining a light on those who would be otherwise hidden 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:29.440 in plain sight. 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:31.520 And it's a pleasure to bring you these stories on 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:35.120 a weekly basis with you here on Vision Australia Radio. 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:36.480 Hi, Andrew, how are you? 0:00:36.519 --> 0:00:39.159 Really? Well, Simon, and how about yourself? 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:43.120 I'm fantastic. And just during the weekend just gone, I 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:47.320 was reminded how fortunate I am to be well connected 0:00:47.319 --> 0:00:50.480 within my local community. And I say on this radio 0:00:50.480 --> 0:00:55.440 program quite a lot, that community is so important. Now, 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:58.399 I know I've been neglectful to certain people within the 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.640 broader community because, as I just said, I'm really well 0:01:01.679 --> 0:01:05.000 connected into my local community and I don't go much 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.839 further than my neighbourhood. Do you have a good community neighbourhood, Andrew, 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:09.480 where you live? 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:12.720 Yes, I certainly do have fantastic neighbours. I live up 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.149 in the Perth Hills, which is a very fine part 0:01:15.150 --> 0:01:17.510 of Perth to live. There are many great places in 0:01:17.510 --> 0:01:20.150 Perth to live, but yeah, I like living in the bush. 0:01:20.150 --> 0:01:24.670 It's great, really great neighbours, really good connections with other things. Um, 0:01:24.950 --> 0:01:27.390 listeners may know that I sing with the Perth Pride 0:01:27.390 --> 0:01:31.070 Choir as well, which is another brilliant community. So, uh, 0:01:31.070 --> 0:01:32.270 feel really well connected. 0:01:32.270 --> 0:01:34.030 And one of the things I was able to do 0:01:34.070 --> 0:01:37.190 on the weekend was to pick up a television and 0:01:37.230 --> 0:01:40.350 had several friends help me with that. And one of 0:01:40.350 --> 0:01:44.030 the criteria I was looking for in my new television 0:01:44.030 --> 0:01:48.630 was a television that I could physically access myself with 0:01:48.630 --> 0:01:53.030 the limited vision that I have, because to read the menus, 0:01:53.030 --> 0:01:56.710 to figure out what channel I'm on, what the TV 0:01:56.750 --> 0:02:00.990 guide within the TV itself. And interestingly enough, I reached 0:02:00.990 --> 0:02:07.110 out to the centre for Accessibility Australia and the CEO there, 0:02:07.110 --> 0:02:09.830 Scott Hollier, got in touch with me and he told 0:02:09.829 --> 0:02:14.690 me about two brands of televisions that have the Google platform. 0:02:14.690 --> 0:02:18.450 They use the Google platform, the Google operating system, and 0:02:18.450 --> 0:02:22.329 those televisions, just like your Google phone or your Android phone, 0:02:22.369 --> 0:02:26.210 has a screen reader program built within it called talkback. 0:02:26.450 --> 0:02:30.450 So my new fancy television, not only can it connect 0:02:30.450 --> 0:02:33.050 to everything on the internet and all that type of thing, 0:02:33.329 --> 0:02:35.889 and sometimes you can even watch proper television on it, 0:02:35.889 --> 0:02:39.530 which is much more difficult. Now it reads out what 0:02:39.530 --> 0:02:42.010 is on the screen. It tells me what channel I'm on, 0:02:42.329 --> 0:02:45.489 how to access the menus, how to access all these 0:02:45.489 --> 0:02:50.089 different things, and makes it much more easier for me 0:02:50.089 --> 0:02:52.889 to use all the other stuff and features within this 0:02:52.889 --> 0:02:56.250 fancy new television. I did see an interesting comment once 0:02:56.250 --> 0:02:59.450 when I was looking into televisions. Why do blind people 0:02:59.489 --> 0:03:02.010 watch television? I know a lot of people might think 0:03:02.049 --> 0:03:03.809 that you probably have yourself, Andrew. 0:03:03.929 --> 0:03:06.850 I have thought that occasionally. And why not? Is the 0:03:06.850 --> 0:03:08.089 answer exactly. 0:03:08.369 --> 0:03:12.160 One smart answer I saw was if you're fully sighted, 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:15.039 how often do you have the television on and you're 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:16.079 not actually looking at it? 0:03:16.119 --> 0:03:19.279 Exactly. Yes. You're getting dinner ready and whatever. You can 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:21.880 hear the sound and all that. You don't have to 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:24.359 be watching it to partake in what's happening on it. 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:30.799 Our conversation today revolves around the topic of global accessibility. 0:03:30.799 --> 0:03:34.760 And in particular, we are making acknowledgment of Global Accessibility 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.440 Awareness Day. Now when does that held? Andrew. 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:41.280 It's Thursday the 21st of May. That's the 15th year 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.640 this is happening. And the whole purpose of the accessibility day, 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:48.680 global Accessibility day or guard is to get everybody talking 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:52.920 and just thinking and learning about digital access and inclusion, because, 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:56.839 you know, it's, it's all pervasive in today's world. And 0:03:56.839 --> 0:03:59.279 you kind of think, well, why do we actually need 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.520 to mark a day like this when it's so pervasive? 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:04.840 You know, we're just involved. We're connected. We're supposed to 0:04:04.839 --> 0:04:07.480 be connected anyway with all of this. But the answer 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.279 to that, I guess, is imagine trying to actually navigate 0:04:10.420 --> 0:04:13.659 the internet with your eyes closed or not being able 0:04:13.660 --> 0:04:18.140 to hear a video. Mhm. And that just completely changes things. So, um, 0:04:18.180 --> 0:04:21.260 whilst there's a lot of developments and advances that have 0:04:21.260 --> 0:04:24.580 been made in access, physical access to buildings and all 0:04:24.580 --> 0:04:26.900 that kind of thing over many years, many decades and 0:04:26.900 --> 0:04:29.940 so forth, it's like the digital access is the new frontier. 0:04:30.420 --> 0:04:33.700 So these days, like many of the days we talk 0:04:33.740 --> 0:04:36.900 about here on the program are also very important to, 0:04:36.940 --> 0:04:40.140 to look at. And in particular, the focus today is 0:04:40.140 --> 0:04:43.580 our guest, Glenn Wilson, with whom you had a great chat. 0:04:43.820 --> 0:04:48.540 Glenn is a digital accessibility analyst with center for Accessibility 0:04:48.539 --> 0:04:51.339 in Australia, and that's a national organization, but they're based 0:04:51.339 --> 0:04:52.219 here in Perth. 0:04:52.820 --> 0:04:55.179 And there was one point in particular that they wanted 0:04:55.180 --> 0:04:58.300 to raise again, Andrew, what was that about some service 0:04:58.300 --> 0:05:01.180 that they're providing at the centre for Accessibility Australia? 0:05:01.180 --> 0:05:03.540 Yeah, there's quite a number of services that they do 0:05:03.580 --> 0:05:07.260 provide there, but one of them is actually taking people's 0:05:07.300 --> 0:05:12.450 unused computers and basically giving them a damn good renovation job, 0:05:13.050 --> 0:05:15.529 you know? Putting a new software and hardware and so forth. 0:05:15.529 --> 0:05:18.450 And so they have another life beyond that. They also 0:05:18.450 --> 0:05:21.450 give a consulting service, essentially for people that want to 0:05:21.450 --> 0:05:24.369 make sure that their websites are actually up to scratch 0:05:24.370 --> 0:05:28.170 in terms of accessibility. But yes, you'll hear Glenn talk 0:05:28.210 --> 0:05:32.289 about what the work is that the center for accessibility does. 0:05:32.330 --> 0:05:34.650 That's right. So just before we go to the interview, 0:05:34.690 --> 0:05:39.490 just want to reiterate that Global Accessibility Awareness Day, which 0:05:39.490 --> 0:05:42.210 is held on 21st of May. You can find out 0:05:42.210 --> 0:05:46.089 lots of information about guard. If you type into your 0:05:46.089 --> 0:05:50.089 search engine guard G, A, A, D, and it gives 0:05:50.089 --> 0:05:53.370 you lots of examples of how to make your website 0:05:53.370 --> 0:05:56.770 or your your service better for people with different kinds 0:05:56.770 --> 0:05:59.730 of disabilities. And there's examples of what to do if 0:05:59.729 --> 0:06:03.810 someone's vision impaired, hearing impaired or has cognitive issues or 0:06:03.810 --> 0:06:06.969 learning issues and so on. So take that into account 0:06:06.969 --> 0:06:09.750 when you're listening to this really wonderful conversation that I'm 0:06:09.789 --> 0:06:13.750 going to share with you now with Glenn Wilson. This week, 0:06:13.750 --> 0:06:17.950 we want to talk about the issue of global accessibility 0:06:17.990 --> 0:06:21.909 for online and digital content. And this week, I'm really 0:06:21.909 --> 0:06:24.230 pleased to say we have a guest in the studio, 0:06:24.270 --> 0:06:29.469 Glenn Wilson. And Glenn is from the center for Accessibility Australia, 0:06:29.510 --> 0:06:32.469 based here in Perth, but Australia wide. And it's a 0:06:32.469 --> 0:06:35.669 great pleasure to welcome Glenn into the studio now. Hi, Glenn. 0:06:35.710 --> 0:06:36.710 Hi, Simon. 0:06:36.710 --> 0:06:38.990 Thanks for joining us this week, Glenn. And it's really 0:06:38.990 --> 0:06:40.710 great that you could come in and talk to us. 0:06:40.710 --> 0:06:43.990 I'll get into the basics a little bit about you first, Glenn. 0:06:43.990 --> 0:06:47.150 So you are blind now, correct. And so how long 0:06:47.190 --> 0:06:48.270 have you been blind? 0:06:48.310 --> 0:06:53.150 I was diagnosed as legally blind in 2007, but I 0:06:53.190 --> 0:06:55.830 went through a period prior to that where I gradually 0:06:55.870 --> 0:06:59.069 was losing my sight. I'm not totally blind. I have 0:06:59.110 --> 0:07:02.110 basically no central vision, and I therefore rely on my 0:07:02.110 --> 0:07:05.310 peripheral vision, which is not 100% either. 0:07:05.310 --> 0:07:07.349 And what was the nature of your eye condition? 0:07:07.620 --> 0:07:12.020 Huh? It's not one of the regular ones. The symptoms 0:07:12.020 --> 0:07:17.220 are similar to age related macular degeneration. The full name 0:07:17.220 --> 0:07:21.020 that I've been given for it is benign. Annular concentric 0:07:21.020 --> 0:07:23.860 bull's eye. Macular dystrophy. Gosh. 0:07:24.060 --> 0:07:25.820 Okay. I bet you don't say that too often. 0:07:25.860 --> 0:07:27.180 No, I try not to. 0:07:27.380 --> 0:07:29.820 So the symptoms, like you say, are very similar to 0:07:29.900 --> 0:07:35.380 macular degeneration. And that's well known eye condition. So when 0:07:35.420 --> 0:07:37.220 did that first started to appear? Glenn. 0:07:37.260 --> 0:07:39.820 Well, I was aware of changes to my eyesight when 0:07:39.820 --> 0:07:42.740 I was in my 30s, but I could still read 0:07:42.740 --> 0:07:45.540 the eye chart. So as far as the optometrists were concerned, 0:07:45.580 --> 0:07:48.740 I still had good vision. But what was actually happening 0:07:48.740 --> 0:07:52.739 was I was getting holes in my macula, but I 0:07:52.740 --> 0:07:55.260 was able to see around them. So my brain sort 0:07:55.300 --> 0:07:58.580 of filled in the gaps. But then when I became 0:07:58.740 --> 0:08:02.380 more aware of a definite change, I persuaded an optometrist 0:08:02.420 --> 0:08:05.340 to have a closer look. And although she didn't know 0:08:05.340 --> 0:08:07.960 what it was, she thought, yes, there is something going on. 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:14.320 So she sent me off to a specialist. So in 2001, 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.480 I was officially diagnosed with this condition. At the time, 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:20.400 they didn't know what the cause was, but since then 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:23.960 I've had genetic testing and all that. And there's apparently 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.320 a gene that has mutated, which is related to a 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.840 number of different eye conditions. And in my case, apparently 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.200 there is only three people in Australia with this condition. 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.880 Wow, that's quite fascinating. Quite interesting. When you were talking 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:41.559 about the eye chart reminded me of my story. I 0:08:41.560 --> 0:08:45.040 was well aware that my sight had deteriorated quite dramatically. 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.240 And considering my eye condition is hereditary, I was sort 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:50.240 of aware of what may or may not happen. I 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:52.640 went to my GP and I said, well, I guess 0:08:52.680 --> 0:08:55.760 this silly eye disease has caught up with me. Do 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:58.200 you think I can still drive doctor? And the doctor said, yeah, 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:00.280 well what? Tell me what you can read on the chart. 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:02.520 I said, what chart? And he goes, no, you can't drive. 0:09:02.560 --> 0:09:04.520 So that was that. Before we move on to your 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.110 professional realm that you were in. So I guess on 0:09:07.110 --> 0:09:09.590 a personal note, that must have been quite a dramatic 0:09:09.630 --> 0:09:12.910 and traumatic event for you when that was diagnosed. How 0:09:12.910 --> 0:09:14.430 was that for you back then, Glenn? 0:09:14.470 --> 0:09:17.990 Well, when I was originally diagnosed, I was told that 0:09:17.990 --> 0:09:20.870 10 to 20 years I would be legally blind. And 0:09:20.870 --> 0:09:24.350 I thought, well, I'll think positive and say 20 years, 0:09:24.350 --> 0:09:27.750 which would be close to retirement age, but it ended 0:09:27.750 --> 0:09:29.110 up only being five years. 0:09:29.150 --> 0:09:29.750 Oh, gosh. 0:09:29.990 --> 0:09:33.470 And then not long after being told I was legally blind, 0:09:33.590 --> 0:09:37.310 my workplace said they would like me to take long 0:09:37.310 --> 0:09:40.910 service leave and not come back. Mhm. So all of 0:09:40.950 --> 0:09:46.550 that combined. Yeah. It was somewhat dramatic. Depressing. Mhm. All 0:09:46.550 --> 0:09:49.070 the usual sort of symptoms with that sort of thing happens. 0:09:49.070 --> 0:09:50.950 But you know, a few years down the track, you 0:09:50.950 --> 0:09:54.790 are now working for an organisation that helps provide a 0:09:54.790 --> 0:09:57.990 very specific service for other people who are blind or 0:09:57.990 --> 0:10:01.110 have other kinds of impairments. Can you tell us what 0:10:01.110 --> 0:10:03.710 is the centre for Accessibility Australia? 0:10:03.750 --> 0:10:08.810 Well, it Originated with the idea of making websites more 0:10:08.810 --> 0:10:13.050 accessible for people with vision impairment, but also for other 0:10:13.050 --> 0:10:16.930 people with disabilities who, for one reason or another, have 0:10:16.930 --> 0:10:22.650 difficulty accessing websites. We've since expanded our role. We're looking 0:10:22.650 --> 0:10:26.730 at digital documents, but we also provide training for website 0:10:26.730 --> 0:10:33.090 developers and information sessions for different people. And we're also 0:10:33.250 --> 0:10:39.010 expanding into the realm of providing computers for people with 0:10:39.010 --> 0:10:42.090 disabilities who might not be able to get or afford 0:10:42.090 --> 0:10:47.650 a computer for their work or for their general enjoyment, 0:10:47.690 --> 0:10:50.290 whatever the reason might be that they need a computer. 0:10:50.370 --> 0:10:54.970 So we are receiving donated computers. Like if businesses have 0:10:54.970 --> 0:10:57.410 a computer that's come to the end of its work 0:10:57.450 --> 0:11:01.610 life but still runs the latest software, they can send 0:11:01.610 --> 0:11:04.240 it to us, we clean it out, make sure there's 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:06.760 nothing on there that could be a problem, and then 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:08.240 pass it on to someone who needs it. 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:11.280 That is a great service. And if you're listening and 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:13.880 you have an old computer in the back of a 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.520 room somewhere, there are other places to go. But let's 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:21.400 consider center for Accessibility Australia as a place to donate 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.200 your old computer, because let's face it, it's got no 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.520 financial value. These old computers, you can't sell them. No 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:30.800 one wants them except places like this that can refurbish 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:33.600 them and repurpose them and give them to people who 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.520 cannot access a computer on their own. One of the 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.600 main themes of this discussion that we're having today is 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.000 all about the fact that so much of our world 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:47.840 revolves around digital access. We're not just talking about computers, 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:52.800 we're talking about phones and even digital radios. Now, they 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.880 all need to be easier for people with a disability. 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:59.840 And we're talking about blind people in particular. For those 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:01.640 of us with a vision impairment to be able to 0:12:01.680 --> 0:12:05.060 use with ease. How long have you been working there 0:12:05.060 --> 0:12:05.860 at CFA? 0:12:06.060 --> 0:12:09.340 Well, I've only been working there for nine months. As 0:12:09.340 --> 0:12:12.620 you probably gather, I spent a while without work, although 0:12:12.620 --> 0:12:15.100 I have managed to get a couple of other short 0:12:15.140 --> 0:12:18.100 term jobs prior to this one, but it's been a 0:12:18.100 --> 0:12:23.180 bit of a learning curve. We use the web accessibility guidelines, 0:12:23.180 --> 0:12:27.820 which are an international set of guidelines used to assess 0:12:27.820 --> 0:12:32.540 whether websites are accessible, and trying to make sure that 0:12:32.540 --> 0:12:35.260 I'm familiar with as many of them as possible and 0:12:35.260 --> 0:12:39.060 understand how they actually apply to a website or a 0:12:39.060 --> 0:12:42.660 web page. That is a that is probably the hardest 0:12:42.660 --> 0:12:46.620 part of the of the job and understanding how they 0:12:46.620 --> 0:12:50.380 apply to a particular website, whether certain characteristics of the 0:12:50.380 --> 0:12:55.220 website fit within those guidelines or whether they fail the guidelines. 0:12:55.260 --> 0:12:59.740 Often developers will develop a website so that it looks good, 0:12:59.780 --> 0:13:03.650 it looks flashy, and you've got all the video and 0:13:04.050 --> 0:13:07.810 moving bits and pieces and fancy graphics and that, which 0:13:07.850 --> 0:13:11.410 obviously a person with a vision impairment can't appreciate and 0:13:11.450 --> 0:13:14.450 they can't access them. They can't tell where all the 0:13:14.450 --> 0:13:18.010 links and buttons and things are. And so we test 0:13:18.010 --> 0:13:22.090 them with screen readers to see if the screen reader 0:13:22.090 --> 0:13:25.450 can pick up all of those things. And for other 0:13:25.450 --> 0:13:29.170 disabilities as well. Uh, generally for people who can't use 0:13:29.170 --> 0:13:33.610 a mouse and sighted person would be able to see 0:13:33.610 --> 0:13:36.530 what's on the screen, be able to move the pointer 0:13:36.530 --> 0:13:40.490 to the correct location and click on it. And that's 0:13:40.610 --> 0:13:42.730 clearly a lot quicker and a lot easier than if 0:13:42.770 --> 0:13:44.090 you're using a screen reader. 0:13:44.090 --> 0:13:47.370 Of course, just to clarify, for listeners who may not 0:13:47.370 --> 0:13:50.330 understand that terminology, that will get used a lot in 0:13:50.370 --> 0:13:55.130 this conversation screen reader is, um, software within a computer 0:13:55.130 --> 0:13:57.930 or a phone or even a television these days that 0:13:57.930 --> 0:14:01.240 reads what is on the screen. Well, Hopefully most of 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:04.880 it at least. Anyway, to manipulate the screen like Glenn 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:07.720 was just saying. Most people just see something they point 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:09.600 on and they click and it tells you what to do. 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:14.360 For a blind person or people who have other dexterity issues, 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:17.680 pointing the mouse at a screen is not possible. You 0:14:17.680 --> 0:14:20.120 need to use keyboard commands. Is that right, Glenn? 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:22.920 Yes. And on a web page, there is an underlying 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:27.800 markup language which defines the various parts of the page 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:31.240 which even the sighted person can't see. But it's there 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:33.920 and the screen reader picks them up. So, for example, 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:38.840 there might be a markup which indicates that something is 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:43.320 a header level one, or that there is alternative text 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:47.720 for an image. And that alternative text hopefully describes the image. 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.120 So the screen reader will go through, it'll pick up, oh, 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:53.880 this is a header level one. So the vision impaired 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:58.120 person can understand. Well, that's obviously an important part of 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.820 the text and it will also pick up the alternative 0:15:00.820 --> 0:15:03.940 text for the image and then describe what the image 0:15:03.940 --> 0:15:04.580 is about. 0:15:05.020 --> 0:15:09.300 It's interesting that what you are talking about to us, 0:15:09.300 --> 0:15:14.260 people who have no interest or ability in technology, apart 0:15:14.260 --> 0:15:17.660 from liking to use it, the stuff that you're talking 0:15:17.660 --> 0:15:21.300 about is all that hidden, magical stuff that non-computer people 0:15:21.340 --> 0:15:24.660 don't even see or understand, but it helps make the 0:15:24.660 --> 0:15:27.700 computer or whatever it is that we're using, the digital 0:15:27.700 --> 0:15:29.740 stuff that we're looking at usable. 0:15:29.780 --> 0:15:32.940 You're listening to In Plain Sight on Vision Australia Radio 0:15:33.100 --> 0:15:36.420 with Simon Chong and me, Andrew Williams. Our guest this 0:15:36.420 --> 0:15:40.620 week is Glen Wilson, who is a digital accessibility analyst 0:15:40.620 --> 0:15:45.020 with the centre for Accessibility Australia, based in Perth. And 0:15:45.020 --> 0:15:47.020 now it's back to Simon and Glen. 0:15:47.060 --> 0:15:49.500 Can you tell us, Glen, what are some of the 0:15:49.500 --> 0:15:54.620 more common screen reading apps or programs or devices that 0:15:54.620 --> 0:15:55.380 are used? 0:15:55.420 --> 0:15:58.690 Okay. Well, I was a teacher in the dim, dark 0:15:58.690 --> 0:16:03.570 past and as a teacher, I commonly used Macintosh computers. 0:16:03.570 --> 0:16:06.330 So these days that's the one I'm most familiar with. 0:16:06.330 --> 0:16:09.770 And I use VoiceOver, which is the screen reader software 0:16:09.770 --> 0:16:13.130 for that. But windows obviously is the more commonly used. 0:16:13.410 --> 0:16:16.290 And on there you can get Nvidia, which is a 0:16:16.290 --> 0:16:21.130 free software package. Narrator, of course is built into windows. 0:16:21.490 --> 0:16:23.810 And then on top of that, you can get jaws, 0:16:23.970 --> 0:16:27.490 which is the most expensive, but probably the more powerful 0:16:27.490 --> 0:16:28.850 screen reader system. 0:16:28.850 --> 0:16:32.490 And I know that there are softwares out there that 0:16:32.490 --> 0:16:38.410 also combine magnification as well as screen reading. So the 0:16:38.410 --> 0:16:42.730 computer is magnified and it also has a voice output. 0:16:42.930 --> 0:16:46.330 I remember when iPhones were first invented and I thought, 0:16:46.370 --> 0:16:49.970 how the heck could a blind person use a touch screen? 0:16:49.970 --> 0:16:54.850 And being Apple device, they wanted it to be smarter 0:16:54.850 --> 0:16:59.150 and better and more integrated than any other computer that 0:16:59.150 --> 0:17:03.710 was invented at the time, and really well integrated accessibility 0:17:03.750 --> 0:17:10.429 software within those Apple devices. I've noticed on the Cfa's website, Glenn, 0:17:10.470 --> 0:17:14.510 that not only do you do things about accessibility for 0:17:14.510 --> 0:17:18.710 computers and whatnot, you also give advice and help people 0:17:18.950 --> 0:17:22.270 find ways of accessing the computers and the phones that 0:17:22.270 --> 0:17:23.230 they've already got. 0:17:23.270 --> 0:17:26.110 Yes. And we can offer assistance with that as well. 0:17:26.110 --> 0:17:29.110 If people want to set up their devices, they don't 0:17:29.110 --> 0:17:32.830 have someone like a friendly teenager at home that can 0:17:32.830 --> 0:17:35.310 help them set up. Then we can provide that. 0:17:35.310 --> 0:17:39.590 And there is really great advice about the different devices 0:17:39.590 --> 0:17:44.750 on the Cfa's website. So part of your particular role, Glenn, 0:17:44.790 --> 0:17:48.750 is to do audits on websites. Tell me how that works. 0:17:48.990 --> 0:17:53.830 An organisation can approach us to apply for an assessment 0:17:53.830 --> 0:17:56.900 of their website, for which they get accreditation, and they 0:17:56.900 --> 0:17:59.460 can then put on their website the fact that it 0:17:59.460 --> 0:18:03.619 is accredited. We will then look at the site, test 0:18:03.620 --> 0:18:06.740 it with screen readers, but we also have other things 0:18:07.060 --> 0:18:09.620 that we can test it with that are not directly 0:18:09.620 --> 0:18:13.700 related to screen readers. Things like, for example, contrast on 0:18:13.700 --> 0:18:18.580 the page. If you have a pink writing on a 0:18:18.620 --> 0:18:22.220 light red background, for example, how easy is that to 0:18:22.220 --> 0:18:28.140 be read? Even for people who have dyslexia or are colorblind? 0:18:28.300 --> 0:18:32.140 We can test to even that degree. And just generally, 0:18:32.340 --> 0:18:36.620 how accessible is the page the site? Can anyone get 0:18:36.660 --> 0:18:37.580 access to it? 0:18:37.740 --> 0:18:44.100 And it's like accessibility in the physical world. Quite often 0:18:44.100 --> 0:18:47.700 when a website is made more accessible, it's made easier 0:18:47.700 --> 0:18:51.580 for everybody to use. A person without a disability can 0:18:51.580 --> 0:18:56.440 always benefit from it as well, because people are then 0:18:56.480 --> 0:19:00.720 made to consider how best to create a website. Yes, 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.040 it looks great, it looks interesting and it's eye catching 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.480 and all that, but it's also easy to use, easy 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:11.160 to navigate, easy to find what you're looking for. And 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:13.600 some websites that I've seen that are very excellent at 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:16.800 first glance. There's a lot of moving pictures. It's very 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:20.840 graphic orientated, but they have a really good alternative where 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:24.040 the menu because as you probably are well aware, Glenn, 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.640 using a menu or something like that, just tab down 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.000 a list or scroll down a list or however you 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.160 might navigate the screen. Are they the kinds of tips 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:36.159 that you give developers and people who are running their businesses? 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:41.200 Yes. Uh, generally, uh, obviously the most accessible web page 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.640 would be one. That's all text. So all you have 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.040 to do is make your way down the page and 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.160 your screen reader software will read the contents out to 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:51.680 you directly. And you don't have to click on buttons 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:55.030 or select links and things like that. But that won't 0:19:55.030 --> 0:19:59.710 work for everybody. No. So if you're a commercial business, 0:19:59.750 --> 0:20:03.870 you want a website that's going to provide information for 0:20:03.910 --> 0:20:07.190 a wider range of people as possible. If you leave 0:20:07.230 --> 0:20:11.070 a group within the community out of that, then you're 0:20:11.070 --> 0:20:15.430 losing business. So ultimately, you want to provide a website 0:20:15.430 --> 0:20:20.430 that provides the information, perhaps the ability to purchase items 0:20:20.430 --> 0:20:23.750 as well. All of that sort of thing easily for 0:20:23.750 --> 0:20:28.350 everybody who wants to access it. And so yes, it 0:20:28.350 --> 0:20:31.790 should be bright and cheery. Why not? But it should 0:20:31.790 --> 0:20:34.950 also be accessible to the wide range of people. 0:20:34.950 --> 0:20:38.510 Whilst not every website is for a commercial business. It 0:20:38.510 --> 0:20:43.750 doesn't serve your company or organization well. If you are 0:20:44.110 --> 0:20:48.750 somehow leaving out a large portion of the community. And obviously, 0:20:48.750 --> 0:20:53.030 if your organization is a commercial business, you possibly could 0:20:53.470 --> 0:20:57.370 be losing money if you are not attracting certain people 0:20:57.370 --> 0:20:58.850 to your website. 0:20:58.930 --> 0:21:02.330 And of course, as you said, they're not all commercial businesses. 0:21:02.330 --> 0:21:09.290 We often get to assess, uh, government sites, perhaps public libraries, uh, 0:21:09.370 --> 0:21:12.570 city websites and so on. And while they're not trying 0:21:12.570 --> 0:21:17.730 to sell anything, they are providing information about their town council, 0:21:17.730 --> 0:21:21.050 city council, whatever. And that can be important. Even things 0:21:21.050 --> 0:21:23.650 like what date does your rubbish get picked up? And 0:21:23.650 --> 0:21:27.130 if that's not clear to everybody, then there could be problems. 0:21:27.170 --> 0:21:30.090 Now, Glenn, um, I was just wondering what else can 0:21:30.090 --> 0:21:33.890 you tell us about, um centre for Accessibility Australia before 0:21:33.890 --> 0:21:37.010 we have to start to slowly wind the conversation down? 0:21:37.250 --> 0:21:41.330 Uh, well, we provide a number of different services. Our 0:21:41.730 --> 0:21:45.850 obviously our main, the main service that we provide is 0:21:46.050 --> 0:21:49.610 assessing websites and web pages and what have you. And 0:21:49.610 --> 0:21:53.600 as I indicated earlier, we're expanding into digital documents and 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:57.320 so on, but we also provide education on the topic 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:02.200 of digital accessibility. You mentioned Auslan. We have a number 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:07.359 of videos available on our website and other locations, and 0:22:07.360 --> 0:22:12.800 we try to always have an Auslan signer available to 0:22:13.120 --> 0:22:16.840 indicate what's happening on the screen, as well as audio 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:19.840 descriptions and all of the other things. So it's not 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:23.520 just text related things that we're providing. And these are 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:27.080 all examples that people can use in their own websites 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:31.960 and educational programs. And plus, of course, as I've mentioned before, 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:35.560 the refurbished computers that we're making available for people who 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:36.400 need those. 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:40.240 Being that you are trying to provide accessibility and be 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:44.440 inclusive for everybody, do you also help address things like 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.320 plain text? And what is the best kind of document 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:50.640 to use for a blind person and simple languages for 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:52.379 people with cognitive issues. 0:22:52.420 --> 0:22:55.460 Yes, it's one of the areas we can provide education 0:22:55.460 --> 0:22:59.420 about or just simply answer questions for if people want 0:22:59.460 --> 0:23:02.300 to know about that. Yeah, we can provide help on that. 0:23:02.340 --> 0:23:05.500 I always try to advise people that if you're sending 0:23:05.540 --> 0:23:08.179 me a document, send it to me in the most 0:23:08.180 --> 0:23:12.980 simplest basic way, not a fancy document with lots of 0:23:12.980 --> 0:23:17.340 pictures and stuff, just a basic word document. And even 0:23:17.380 --> 0:23:20.300 though I like to think I'm a very intelligent person 0:23:20.300 --> 0:23:23.860 and I can read reasonably well, being that I'm vision impaired, 0:23:23.860 --> 0:23:26.700 and being that I have a computer reading to me. 0:23:26.740 --> 0:23:30.300 Keep it short and simple and concise, and then it 0:23:30.300 --> 0:23:33.340 makes life a lot easier for everybody. Yes, a lot 0:23:33.380 --> 0:23:36.619 of people now, when you go to download a document 0:23:36.620 --> 0:23:39.619 from a service that is providing information, you can have 0:23:39.780 --> 0:23:42.700 three different versions of that document. One will be a PDF, 0:23:42.740 --> 0:23:45.700 one B word, and one will be plain, simple English. 0:23:45.780 --> 0:23:48.460 And a lot of people choose a simple English version. 0:23:48.500 --> 0:23:53.090 Often if you are using a screen reader program to 0:23:53.250 --> 0:23:56.930 read it. It can be quite boring if you have it. 0:23:56.930 --> 0:24:00.850 Read the whole page to you with long explanations and 0:24:00.890 --> 0:24:03.410 and that sort of thing. Whereas if you've got shorter 0:24:03.410 --> 0:24:07.530 sentences and paragraphs, it's a lot easier to listen to it. 0:24:07.570 --> 0:24:10.169 Now, just before we finish up, Glenn, because we have 0:24:10.170 --> 0:24:14.650 to finish soon, we mentioned earlier about alternate text, and 0:24:14.650 --> 0:24:16.570 it's something I've brought up before. Can you tell us 0:24:16.570 --> 0:24:20.330 what alternative text is in regards to images and image descriptions? 0:24:20.410 --> 0:24:24.930 Well, as I said before, within the markup language of 0:24:24.930 --> 0:24:30.690 a web page, there is a language command called alt 0:24:30.690 --> 0:24:34.409 for alt text. And within that you can put a 0:24:34.410 --> 0:24:38.889 number of words which describe an image. So that alt 0:24:38.930 --> 0:24:42.370 text is linked to the image. Rather than having something 0:24:42.370 --> 0:24:45.090 come up to say, oh, this is a picture of 0:24:45.130 --> 0:24:49.129 a girl. Preferably the image would be labelled with something 0:24:49.130 --> 0:24:51.710 like this is a picture of a girl bouncing a 0:24:51.710 --> 0:24:54.310 ball on a basketball court. Yes. Which is a lot 0:24:54.310 --> 0:24:58.070 more descriptive. And the person has a lot better idea 0:24:58.070 --> 0:25:02.470 of what's going on. If it's purely decorative. Then perhaps 0:25:02.470 --> 0:25:04.590 you don't need to label it. You just simply put 0:25:04.590 --> 0:25:08.629 in alt with empty brackets or empty quotes, I should say, 0:25:08.710 --> 0:25:11.710 so that your screen reader doesn't try and read it. 0:25:11.710 --> 0:25:14.990 And just for the basics is that if you are 0:25:15.110 --> 0:25:18.629 putting on a Facebook post or an Instagram post, or 0:25:18.670 --> 0:25:20.550 if you're on TikTok or any of those kind of 0:25:20.550 --> 0:25:25.590 social media platforms, there is a way of incorporating alternative 0:25:25.670 --> 0:25:31.390 text into the picture that you upload on Instagram. For instance, 0:25:31.390 --> 0:25:34.870 there is actually a section there that says alternative text 0:25:34.990 --> 0:25:38.550 for Facebook. When you upload your photo or your picture, 0:25:38.550 --> 0:25:41.190 there's a button that says edit. And within that screen 0:25:41.190 --> 0:25:43.910 there's a, there's a thing that says alternative text and 0:25:43.910 --> 0:25:46.150 you write in the box. The other thing is that 0:25:46.150 --> 0:25:49.260 for Facebook, for instance, when I'm looking at Facebook on 0:25:49.260 --> 0:25:53.060 my phone. If I tap on the screen, the phone 0:25:53.060 --> 0:25:55.420 tries to tell me what the picture is. Now, it 0:25:55.420 --> 0:25:58.139 might look at this radio station and say it's a 0:25:58.140 --> 0:26:00.300 study desk with people in it, and that's all it 0:26:00.300 --> 0:26:04.100 can tell you. It doesn't recognize that it's a radio station. 0:26:04.140 --> 0:26:07.500 It might, but usually not. So whatever you can do 0:26:07.540 --> 0:26:11.220 out there, folks, just try to incorporate something that makes 0:26:11.220 --> 0:26:13.140 it a little bit easier for those of us that 0:26:13.140 --> 0:26:16.780 struggle with some kind of disability or impairment. Now, Glenn, 0:26:16.820 --> 0:26:20.100 we have to wrap this conversation up. As interesting as 0:26:20.100 --> 0:26:23.340 it is, what's the best way to find CFA? 0:26:24.060 --> 0:26:30.139 The center for Accessibility Australia is based in Belmont or Cloverdale, actually, 0:26:30.140 --> 0:26:34.100 I believe. And their website can be found online if 0:26:34.100 --> 0:26:37.580 you search for the center for accessibility and all sorts 0:26:37.580 --> 0:26:40.419 of information and so on is provided there. 0:26:40.820 --> 0:26:42.820 I say, Glenn, we have to finish now. I think 0:26:42.820 --> 0:26:44.740 it's really great that you could come in and share 0:26:44.740 --> 0:26:48.320 some of your personal story and professional insights into this 0:26:48.320 --> 0:26:53.040 very interesting world of online accessibility. It's been a pleasure 0:26:53.040 --> 0:26:56.960 to have Glenn Wilson from the center for Accessibility Australia 0:26:56.960 --> 0:26:59.200 in the studio today, and I thank him for joining us. 0:26:59.400 --> 0:27:01.960 And thank you for listening. And thank you for joining 0:27:01.960 --> 0:27:04.080 us here on Vision Australia Radio. I look forward to 0:27:04.120 --> 0:27:06.280 speaking to you next time. It's bye from me. Bye 0:27:06.320 --> 0:27:06.800 for now. 0:27:14.640 --> 0:27:17.280 That concludes in Plain Sight for this week. Join us 0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:20.440 at the same time next week on Vision Australia Radio. 0:27:20.760 --> 0:27:25.600 VA Radio Digital and online at VA radio.org. You can 0:27:25.600 --> 0:27:29.040 also listen on demand by searching for In Plain Sight 0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:32.960 by Vision Australia Radio. Wherever you get your podcasts, or 0:27:32.960 --> 0:27:36.240 ask your smart device to play in Plain sight by 0:27:36.240 --> 0:27:38.680 Vision Australia Radio. Thanks for listening. 0:27:38.920 --> 0:27:39.520 Thank you.