WEBVTT - Gene Gibson and the Interview Room 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:06.080 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:08.480 verdicts against all three defendants. 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.119 It was absolute shambles, to tell you the truth, just 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:12.560 absolutely really honant. 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:14.920 Blood on his clothing the day after the alleged attap 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:16.960 on a shallow mud bank and if fits through a river. 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:19.200 Basically, I think most of the people are used to me, 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:20.600 there are good people. 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.280 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.360 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:29.880 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pulled back the 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:32.440 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:35.400 our justice system and ask who are the victims. 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:41.080 I'm Amy Maguire and I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.960 for the Foreign Prisoner Support Service. And a warning. This 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.920 series contains the names of deceased peoples and has distressing 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:51.680 content that might upset some listeners. 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:57.080 Even the victim's mother, Ingrid Bishop, met clear she didn't 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:01.000 believe Gibson killed her son has publicly reported the push 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:01.760 for an appeal. 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:06.520 Blind Freddie can see that there is some significant issues 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:09.280 in regard to the sentencing of Jene Gibson. 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:15.720 Welcome to Curtin the podcast, it proved to be that 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:19.880 a mother's instinct was right. She knew the man convicted 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:25.679 of her son's murder was not involved. Jeene Gibson, an 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:29.760 Aboriginal man from the Western Desert of Western Australia, spent 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:33.840 nearly five years in prison after being wrongfully convicted over 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:40.000 the death of her son Joshua Ecki. This week, Jene 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:43.120 Gibson was awarded one point three million dollars by the 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.920 Western Australian government for the time nearly five years that 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:49.800 he spent in prison for a crime he had no 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:54.440 involvement in. If it was so obvious to the mother 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:58.600 of the victim, why wasn't it obvious to the police. 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:04.040 In fact, there were flaws throughout this case, and they're 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:07.760 going to largely mirror those you've heard about in Curtain, 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:12.440 the podcast about Kevin Henry and other Aboriginal peoples around 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:16.480 Australia who have been imprisoned for crimes they did not commit. 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.919 For those not aware of the case, Joshua Necki's body 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.040 was found on the side of the road in twoenty 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:32.320 and ten in a February after leaving a nightclub. Mister 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:37.040 Gibson was implicated in witness statements and was arrested by 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:41.880 police and held right up until the day he was released. 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:47.840 Along the way, he was interviewed, but the police didn't 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:53.760 bring in a proper translator. Mister Gibson speaks his traditional language. 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:58.200 In fact, he speaks many languages, but English is not 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:02.000 a language that he is familiar with. It's not one 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:07.880 that's spoken widely in his community. And yet somehow he 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:11.800 would come to admit to his involvement in a crime 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:17.480 he wasn't even present. For the fact is the police 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:23.120 still have large questions to answer. In fact, those answers 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:27.040 have never come. How did a man who was not 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.760 in the vicinity of the crime, who had no involvement 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:36.400 or connection to the victim, where there was no forensic 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:41.640 evidence to link him to the crime, where all there 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:47.360 was was the statements of two witnesses whose evidence could 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:51.840 barely be relied upon, would result in a man spending 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:54.520 nearly five years in prison for a crime he did 0:03:54.560 --> 0:04:01.800 not commit. Partially, this happened because mister Gibson was forced 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:07.320 to plead guilty. He confessed to his role in the crime, 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:12.480 a role he took no part in. That occurred because, 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:17.040 just like Kevin Henry. There were no lawyers present. Just 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.520 like Kevin Henry, there was two police officers who were 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:25.680 desperate to get a conviction. Just like Kevin Henry, there 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.040 was people who knew more about this case than they 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.720 were letting on, who were pointing the finger without any 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:37.280 evidence to match. Just like Kevin Henry, the police failed 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:42.080 to investigate what really happened on that night, and had 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.039 they bothered to do so, they may have had a 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:50.080 chance to catch the real killer. Sadly, for his mother 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:57.200 and for mister Warnecki, his killer has never been caught. 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:01.680 That is clearly the fault of the police. And it's 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:04.360 also the fault of the police that Jean Gibson, an 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:10.520 innocent man, spent nearly five years in prison. Perhaps one 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:15.159 point three million dollars does not even come close to 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.880 rectifying the damages that have been done to his life, 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:25.200 to his family's life, to the family of the victim, 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:28.520 and to the greater community, who once again are reminded 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:32.880 how incompetent the police can be, and worse that they 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:39.520 can collude to send an innocent man to prison. This week, 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:41.640 I want to spend a little bit of time on 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.480 this case and look at where the failings are occurring 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:50.800 because this continues to happen right around Australia. There's been 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:55.800 calls following the release of mister Gibson, and once again 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.279 with the payment made to him this week, that further 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:03.400 changes need to be made about the way police interview 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:09.240 Aboriginal and Torrestrait Islander people, the way they conduct themselves 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:13.159 in those interviews, and the way those interviews are managed. 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.360 But once again there's a complete failure to look at 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:23.159 what the real reason is. Mister Gibson should never have 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.839 been interviewed in the first place, let alone be forced 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:31.440 to confess to a crime he did not commit. Nowhere 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.760 else to someone who is not within the vicinity of 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:39.240 a crime, has no links whatsoever to a crime, end 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:44.120 up being accused by police in an interview room of 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:49.920 committing murder. That's specially true when there is no other 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:55.520 evidence to suggest their involvement, not a single shred. And 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:59.159 of course the police couldn't know what mister Gibson was 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:04.600 saying because he was attempting to speak in his own language. 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:09.160 Mister Gibson is so good at his own traditional languages 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.960 that before this was done to him by the police 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:16.760 of Western Australia. He was the frontman of a successful 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:22.680 Aboriginal band that toured the Pilber region. All that was 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:26.680 taken away from mister Gibson, despite all his talent and 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:30.120 all his ability. The fact that he was an Aboriginal 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:35.240 man meant that he was instantly targeted by police. The 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.560 fact he was an Aboriginal man meant that two dodgy 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:43.280 witness statements were all these police needed to be sure 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:47.600 he'd committed a crime, a crime so serious it was murder. 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:53.000 But of course he had not committed that crime. The 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.800 question is not about working around the edges of what 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:01.400 takes place. There's been calls that mister Gibson should have 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:06.320 been able to have a proper interpreter. At some point 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:10.200 he was provided an interpreter, but only to read to 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:16.080 him the statement of his own confession. Once again, as 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:19.840 we've spoken about in this podcast, whether it's from Western 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:23.640 Australia and cases like Kevin Henry to a client of mine, 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:27.000 I've spoken about in the United States, we have people 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:33.120 confessing to crimes in written statements in languages they were 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:38.840 not able to write in, meaning quite clearly the arresting 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:42.360 police and those supposed to be investigating and serving us 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:47.800 as a community. Wrote those statements knowing full well that 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:53.280 the details in those statements could not be confirmed, could 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:55.480 not be known to the person who was going to 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.439 put their name to that statement, and knowing full well 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.960 that when that person put their name their signature to 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:08.800 that false statement under severe uress by those very police, 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:13.160 that that person would go to prison for many years. 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.200 As we've spoken about in this podcast, that meant Jane 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:22.240 Gibson spent five years of his life behind bars. For 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:27.200 Kevin Henry, It's meant twenty six years behind bars, and 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:31.160 in Florida in the United States, it meant unheldy As 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:36.040 was executed, murdered for a crime he did not commit. 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.840 Tinkering around the edges as to whether and when interpreters 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:46.760 abrought in for such clients, Tinkering around the edges as 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:51.560 to whether and when lawyers are permitted to enter the 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:59.240 interview room will not change these very conditions. It's fair 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:03.440 to say that the police and the justice system work 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:07.440 on the basis of punishing those who commit the most 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:13.640 heinous crimes short of cold blooded murder. What more heinous 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:17.959 crime could a police officer commit than sending an innocent 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:24.400 man or woman to prison for a crime they knew 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:29.480 had not been committed by that person. At what point 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:33.360 is a police officer not just given deak duty for 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.840 a few weeks, but themselves sent to prison for what 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:41.000 is quite clearly a criminal act. When will the laws 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:45.400 that are applied to everyone else in this country apply 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:50.160 to those who wear a badge. They're tasked with protecting 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:56.800 and serving our community. They're given an enormous responsibility that 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.360 is to find and seek justice for them those who 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:04.200 have been most wronged. And yet time and time again 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:09.160 we find examples where they are the ones doing the wrong, 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.880 where the lives of many people, victims of their worst 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:20.520 crimes and new victims because of their actions, are being destroyed. 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:26.680 Perhaps it's time to set an example by imprisoning the 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:33.120 police who commit these criminal acts. This week, rightly, the 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:37.840 taxpayers of Western Australia paid Gene Gibson one point three 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:42.839 million dollars plus an extra two hundred thousand dollars dollars 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.800 to manage the trust in which that will be held 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:49.840 for mister Gibson so he can access that money throughout 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:54.000 his lifetime. But this is not the first time it's 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.200 happened in Australia, nor is it the first time it's 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:01.679 happened in WA. In fact, the Attorney General who this 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:06.960 week signed off on the check for mister Gibson was 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:11.440 himself active in seeking the release of an innocent man 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:14.600 a number of years ago, so he knows all too 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:18.880 well how often the police get it wrong, and perhaps 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:23.160 that played on mister Quigley's mind as to why he 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:27.080 did sign this check for Jane and why it is 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:32.160 an ex gratia payment allowing mister Gibson to take further 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:38.000 actions and seek further damages from those who wrongfully convicted him. 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:44.200 The case mister Quigley was involved in was when he 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.200 was himself a member of Parliament and lobbied for the 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:52.040 release of Andrew Mallard, who spent twelve years in prison 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:57.280 for a two thousand and six murder of a Perth jeweler, 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:02.199 Pamela Lawrence, that he didn't commit. It was finally quashed 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:06.920 by the Western Australian High Court and the taxpayers handed 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:10.400 over three point twenty five million dollars to mister Mallard. 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:14.400 Once again, it might sound like a large amount of money, 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.760 but given the torment and torture mister Mallard had gone through. 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:22.360 Given the more than a decade of his life he 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:26.640 wrongly spent in prison, is it enough? And once again 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:31.920 nothing was done to the police officers who caused this 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:39.600 grave injustice to occur. When mister Ward, an Aboriginal man, 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:43.280 died of heatstroke in two thousand and eight while being 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:48.000 transported in a prison van in horrific conditions, three point 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:51.520 two million dollars was awarded by the West Australian government. 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.760 That's the value the West Australian government placed on the 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:03.520 life of an Aboriginal elder, three point two million dollars. 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:07.600 Yet no life of a police officer was detained for 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:14.880 one day. Those transporting the prison van in which mister 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:19.640 Ward was held where he died in horrific circumstances, were 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:23.120 not charged with murder and sent to prison for twenty 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.560 five years, like was the conviction for so many others 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:31.760 who have been wrongfully convicted, like the Mickelberg brothers also 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:37.120 in Western Australia, who spent eight and six years in 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:43.560 prison for the Perth Mint scandal and robbery that they 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:49.160 didn't commit. John Button, also in Western Australia, spent five 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:53.800 years in prison after being wrongfully convicted of manslaughter. He 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:59.160 was awarded just four hundred and sixty thousand dollars. Darryl Beamish, 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:03.880 a death man, was originally sentenced to death but spent 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.960 fifteen years in prison for the nineteen fifty nine murder 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:14.360 of a chocolate heiress. The payment he received just four 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:19.480 hundred and twenty five thousand dollars. The real killer, a 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:24.720 serial killer known as Eric Edgar Cook, had already confessed. 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:30.080 Once again. In all these cases, the evidence was available 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:34.840 from day one. Mister Mallard couldn't have committed the murder. 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.560 In the case of mister Ward, it was a minor crime. 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.840 There was no need for him to be transported. The 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:50.080 fact he died on that trip is criminal. Mister Button 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:55.480 and Mickelberg brothers too, served their time in prison despite 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:59.440 there being virtually no evidence of their guilt and their 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:07.200 conviction all quashed. And yet despite this, and despite the 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:11.080 Royal Commission into black debts in custody, we still have 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:16.880 these cases occurring largely to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:23.480 but not exclusively. But before I move on and give 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.200 some suggestions as to ways we can overcome some of 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:31.240 these issues. I want to point to one final, deeply 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:36.160 disturbing aspect of some of the cases I've mentioned in 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:42.560 the podcast today. Not only was mister Gibson not able 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:46.760 to speak English and required and interpret us so that 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:51.680 the police officers could speak to him clearly, thoughtfully and 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:56.600 properly over such a serious matter. When mister Gibson spoke 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:02.280 a number of traditional languages, he also suffered a mental impairment. 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:06.320 This should have been known to police and probably was, 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:11.000 and yet their treatment of him then forcing him into 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:20.160 this confession continued Andrew Mallard as I spoke about, who 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.159 served twelve years in a Western Australian prison for a 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:28.360 murder he didn't commit, also suffered serious mental health issues. 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:34.479 None of this was taken into account. In fact, there 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:39.680 were grave problems along the way with his case, not 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:44.239 only the interviewing process that took place of him his 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:48.480 mental state at the time, but also a forensic report 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:54.320 that was not disclosed to his defense team. Justice Michael Kirby, 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.159 when the case finally made the High Court of Australia, 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:01.639 said that just that forensic place report alone and the 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:06.960 fact that it was withheld, should have meant mister Mallard 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:12.960 was given a retrial, but even after those comments from 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:18.920 High Court Justice Kirby, the DPP would say that they 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:23.240 still considered mister Malliard the primary suspect for the murder 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.320 and that should any credible evidence come up in the future, 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:32.960 that they would seek to prosecute him again. Imagine having 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.480 that hanging over your head, having already served all this 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:39.080 time in prison for a crime you did not commit, 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:45.760 suffering a mental illness as he did, having been brutalized 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:50.480 by the state. The DPP, having got it wrong, already 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:55.120 having been told how wrong they got it by High 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:59.840 Court Justice Michael Kirby, still were going to chase this man, 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:05.520 an innocent man, Andrew Mallard. That was until the pressure 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.879 mounted so heavily that there was a review of the 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:14.800 case and the Commission on Crime and Corruption in Western 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:20.520 Australia began looking at a cold case review. What it 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:27.520 uncovered was the truth mister Mallard had not committed the crime. 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:33.000 In fact, very early on in the review, a palm 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:40.360 print was discovered. It matched a mister Roachford. He'd already 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:46.200 confessed to murdering his girlfriend seven weeks after Miss Lawrence 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:49.240 was killed in the murder that mister Mallard would be 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:55.439 charged with. Why wasn't this followed up on? In fact, 0:19:55.880 --> 0:20:01.320 mister Roachford's appearance, in particular, his beer, was far more 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:05.199 consistent with the original accounts of eyewitnesses than that of 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:10.479 the appearance of mister Mallard. Their appearances were strikingly different, 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:16.440 one being that mister Mallard is very tall, and yet 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:22.639 this did not come up. Further examination of the evidence 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:28.679 discovered more forensic material, blue paint and flakes of it 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.520 that had been found in missus Lawrence's wounds that were 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:37.840 present at the crime scene were found on the rucksack 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:43.120 of mister Roachford. Finally, the police were going to get 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:48.320 their chance to charge the right man, but on the 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.800 same day he was announced as a person of significant 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:56.600 interest in the murder, mister Roachford took his own life, 0:20:56.720 --> 0:21:00.080 where he was already spending time as a convicted murderer 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:07.520 in Albany Maximum security prison. How did the police miss 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:12.640 a known murderer where there was forensic material to show 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:17.439 he'd committed the murder, where his description matched that of 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:21.960 the murderer, and when the man they had mister Andrew Mallard, 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:27.600 was not present, whose description did not match, where there 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:33.160 was no forensic evidence, and who suffered a severe mental illness. 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:40.000 So how can we prevent these tragedies from occurring? Clearly, 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:43.800 from all the cases we've mentioned today and the ones 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:48.240 we've spoken about previously in the podcast, such as that 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:54.040 of Brenton Butler, who was finally found innocent but spent 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:57.520 considerable time in prison for a murder he did not commit. 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:05.160 A young boy, teenage boy, an African American boy, who 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:09.840 was assaulted by police and forced to confess that was 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:13.959 detailed in the documentary that won an Academy Award Murder 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:17.399 on a Sunday morning, and we heard earlier on in 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:23.840 this podcast series from his defense attorney, Patrick McGinnis. What's 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:27.560 evident is that in many of these cases, in fact, 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:31.280 all of those I've spoken about today, as well as 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:36.960 Kevin Henry's and Brenton Butler's, Ahl Diaz's, Gene Gibson's, and 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:44.399 Andrew Mallard's, the issue begins in the interview room. The 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:50.200 issue begins when police officers are left alone with innocent people. 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:56.639 The issue begins when police officers are left alone with 0:22:56.720 --> 0:23:01.240 these people needing to solve a murder, a murder for 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:12.320 which they currently have no forensic evidence, so they are assuming, suggesting, coercing, 0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:19.200 and under duress, often forcing people to confess to murders 0:23:19.520 --> 0:23:26.639 without any supporting evidence. The original crime that leads to 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:32.080 these innocent people spending years in prison Kevin Henry still 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:36.879 behind bars, occurs in that interview room. It's quite clear 0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:42.040 that the police in Australia cannot be trusted when it 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:50.800 comes to interviewing aboriginal and other vulnerable people one on one, 0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:57.440 whether a person declines legal assistance or not. That interview 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:03.440 room requires reques hoarding all of the time by CCTV 0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:09.680 and audio. Unlike in the case of mister Henry, those 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:14.520 video cameras should be turned on. Unlike in the case 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:19.160 of mister Henry, those audio tapes should not be allowed 0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:22.840 to be tampered with or ever in the possession of 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:29.000 the police officers who conduct that interview. In fact, the 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:35.200 cassette tapes that recorded Kevin Henry's false confession were purchased 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:40.920 by one of the police officers in Rockhampton. They were 0:24:40.920 --> 0:24:47.000 then given to him after the interview was conducted. He 0:24:47.040 --> 0:24:50.359 then held them in his personal possession and we don't 0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:55.080 know for how long. What we do know is that 0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:59.639 those tapes sound very funny. They sound as if they 0:24:59.680 --> 0:25:04.359 could been tampered with. These are not just our own claims, 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:09.600 but what the judge believed at the initial trial. What 0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:13.000 was also on those tapes was cleared that Kevin Henry 0:25:13.080 --> 0:25:16.960 was coerced into confessing. Again, these are not just our 0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:20.280 claims or the claims of mister Henry. This was backed 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:24.720 up at trial when the judge found that this evidence 0:25:25.040 --> 0:25:32.760 was inadmissible. Clearly, we need highly trained, highly qualified individuals 0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:38.720 to independently monitor interviews when it comes to police conducting 0:25:38.760 --> 0:25:45.520 an interview around a serious crime. We also need those 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:51.000 who were qualified in interpreting Aboriginal languages so that people 0:25:51.359 --> 0:25:55.640 like mister Henry and mister Gibson, who speak traditional language 0:25:56.680 --> 0:26:00.280 and who are either illiterate or not proficient in English 0:26:00.760 --> 0:26:03.960 have someone there to guide them through what is being 0:26:03.960 --> 0:26:10.040 written down. Just like Cavin Henry, Jene Gibson put his 0:26:10.160 --> 0:26:13.800 name to a statement he couldn't read, forced by the 0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:17.040 police to do so without knowing that what he was 0:26:17.119 --> 0:26:19.840 signing was a piece of paper that would send him 0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:25.600 to prison for years. An independent person needs to be 0:26:25.720 --> 0:26:30.000 in that room to ensure that each and every individual 0:26:30.200 --> 0:26:33.959 understands fully what is being placed on that paper and 0:26:34.000 --> 0:26:37.480 what a person is signing up to. Where there is 0:26:37.560 --> 0:26:42.840 mental health issues involved, particularly when as in all these cases, 0:26:42.920 --> 0:26:47.200 the police are abundantly aware that a mental health issue 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:52.320 is clearly involved with the person who is being interviewed. 0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:59.199 That person should be assessed by an independent psychologist and 0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:03.560 it be decided how much support they need for that 0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:07.840 interview to take place and when the appropriate time is 0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:13.000 for that interview to be conducted. Police also need special training, 0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:17.240 and not just around the edges one off training where 0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:20.400 they learn a little bit of cultural competence taught to them, 0:27:20.440 --> 0:27:25.720 often by a football player, a former NRL star or 0:27:25.720 --> 0:27:29.480 the like. If we're going to send people to prison 0:27:29.520 --> 0:27:31.439 for the rest of their life, this has to be 0:27:31.480 --> 0:27:35.600 a process we take seriously. This has to involve people 0:27:35.680 --> 0:27:40.040 with the highest education in the field, people who understand 0:27:40.200 --> 0:27:44.120 these issues. It has to be people that the police 0:27:44.480 --> 0:27:50.320 can't intimidate. In all these cases, police not only intimidated 0:27:50.359 --> 0:27:54.919 the person that would confess, but intimidated witnesses as well, 0:27:55.440 --> 0:27:58.359 people who could have had they not been interfered with 0:27:58.480 --> 0:28:02.200 by the police. Divided the very evidence that would free 0:28:02.240 --> 0:28:07.919 the innocent man. The police might like to think of 0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:13.080 themselves as watching society and watching the community, picking out 0:28:13.119 --> 0:28:17.080 the bad ones amongst us and ensuring they end up 0:28:17.119 --> 0:28:23.160 in court. The problem is where that court case begins, 0:28:24.000 --> 0:28:28.920 where innocence is presumed, where a jury of the peers 0:28:29.000 --> 0:28:32.439 will find a person innocent or guilty, is not a 0:28:32.440 --> 0:28:37.320 fair process because before any of that takes place, the 0:28:37.359 --> 0:28:41.200 police have ensured that the result will only go one way. 0:28:42.360 --> 0:28:46.320 How else do you explain the overincarceration of Aboriginal people 0:28:46.800 --> 0:28:51.800 in Australia and throughout the Torres Strait. That means Aboriginal 0:28:51.800 --> 0:28:56.520 interstrat Island people's are the most imprisoned on planet Earth. 0:28:57.200 --> 0:29:02.520 This is a cold hard fact. These are just the 0:29:02.760 --> 0:29:08.160 very basics and all these relate to is the initial interview. 0:29:08.920 --> 0:29:12.000 But I suggest if we start to get the professionals 0:29:12.680 --> 0:29:16.000 into the interview room, if the police are not allowed 0:29:16.000 --> 0:29:20.080 to conduct their business like a shakedown rather than a 0:29:20.120 --> 0:29:23.360 search for truth, which it should be, we will start 0:29:23.400 --> 0:29:28.120 to see further flaws open up in the process. A 0:29:28.160 --> 0:29:32.640 community should rightly be able to demand justice when the 0:29:32.680 --> 0:29:39.360 most horrific crimes are committed, but a community like Josh's 0:29:39.360 --> 0:29:46.240 mother and Linda's family. The victims left behind should also 0:29:46.360 --> 0:29:49.000 have the confidence that the person who goes to prison 0:29:49.080 --> 0:29:52.240 for the rest of their life is in fact the killer. 0:29:53.600 --> 0:29:58.760 Anything less cannot be tolerated, and this will only change 0:29:59.160 --> 0:30:04.720 when we begin to we lacked the politicians who administer 0:30:05.240 --> 0:30:10.000 and write the legislation that governs police activity. Who watches 0:30:10.080 --> 0:30:13.880 the watchers start to serve the community and not the 0:30:13.880 --> 0:30:18.360 police force or the police union. This means being aware 0:30:18.640 --> 0:30:23.040 of where your politicians stand on these issues. This means 0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:27.080 lobbying your politicians to ensure that these practices are put 0:30:27.120 --> 0:30:33.480 into place. This means making sure your local politician understands 0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:37.400 that they, as well as the police, serve you and 0:30:37.480 --> 0:30:41.640 not the other way around. We intend to continue to 0:30:41.760 --> 0:30:46.800 expose these injustices, to continue to expose the way the 0:30:46.880 --> 0:30:53.160 police continually get murder cases in Australia wrong and continue 0:30:53.200 --> 0:30:58.360 to send innocent people like Kevin Henry to prison, And 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:03.840 I'll leave you with just one life message. Gene Gibson 0:31:04.440 --> 0:31:09.680 was awarded one point three million dollars for five years 0:31:09.720 --> 0:31:13.160 wrongly behind bars for a murder he did not commit. 0:31:16.120 --> 0:31:19.440 The same level of evidence used to convict him wrongly 0:31:20.440 --> 0:31:24.120 is the same level of evidence used to convict Kevin Henry, 0:31:24.800 --> 0:31:30.000 that is none. The State of Queensland is going to 0:31:30.000 --> 0:31:34.280 have to pay a large sum of money. I suggest 0:31:34.320 --> 0:31:38.959 the sooner Kevin Henry is released the better. The sooner 0:31:39.000 --> 0:31:43.200 that happens, Kevin can get on with his life. The 0:31:43.240 --> 0:31:47.000 sooner that happens, the police officers that conducted this investigation 0:31:47.920 --> 0:31:53.080 can themselves be investigated, that the failings in this case 0:31:53.120 --> 0:31:58.760