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Speaker 1: Already, and this is the daily. This is the daily.

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Speaker 1: This is the daily. Ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Friday,

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Speaker 1: the twenty ninth of August. I'm Sam Kazlowski. Yesterday we

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Speaker 1: brought you the first half of our historic chat with

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Speaker 1: former AFL player Mitch Brown.

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Speaker 2: I played in AFL for ten years, and I'm a

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Speaker 2: bisexual man.

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Speaker 1: In Sitting Down with TDA, Mitch became the first male player,

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Speaker 1: past or present in one hundred and twenty nine years

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Speaker 1: to be openly gay or bisexual.

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Speaker 2: The AFL community is uniting behind former West Coast Mitch Brown.

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Speaker 1: The first openly bisexual man in the AFL's one hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty year history.

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Speaker 2: Power do you, Mitch Brown? Power you? This is going

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Speaker 2: to help so many more people than you'll ever know now.

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Speaker 1: In the final moments of Part one, I asked Mitch

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Speaker 1: about his decision to retire from the AFL at just

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Speaker 1: twenty eight and whether it was connected to the homophobia

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Speaker 1: he witnessed in the locker room and on the field

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Speaker 1: and the constant grappling with his identity. In Part two

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Speaker 1: of our game changing chat with Mitch Brown, we're going

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Speaker 1: to chat about his bisexuality, his family, and the future

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Speaker 1: of representation in the AFL. Here it is, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about that identity, and let's talk about some of the

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Speaker 1: stereotypes that exist around bisexuality. I want to kind of

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Speaker 1: foreshadow what I think the comments section might look like

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Speaker 1: on our chat, and I want to ask whether you're

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Speaker 1: worried about being dismissed because you have a female partner

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Speaker 1: and you present, as you've said, as what many would

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Speaker 1: stereotype as a straight man.

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Speaker 2: It does does worry me. It worries me to a point.

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Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, I'm strong enough.

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Speaker 2: I know who I am, I know the people that

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Speaker 2: I love, and that's all that matters to me. But

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Speaker 2: I think through my experience what I've learned, and as

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Speaker 2: I grew up, your sexuality or being queer for a

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Speaker 2: man only meant you're either gay or you're not. There's

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Speaker 2: no in between. Either can't be, you can't love both,

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Speaker 2: can't be sexually attracted to both. Bisexuality is not a thing.

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Speaker 2: It's made up to cover gay men or straight presenting

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Speaker 2: gay men, right, And this is what I've learned. One

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Speaker 2: of the powerful lessons I've learned from our young people

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Speaker 2: is you know, I feel that young people here in

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Speaker 2: Australia think of sexuality so different. It's so black and white.

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Speaker 2: For older generations and for young people, sexuality means different things.

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Speaker 2: Queerness means different things. Being a bisexual man can look different,

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Speaker 2: and it does look different.

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Speaker 1: Bisexual people face discrimination not just from the straight communit,

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Speaker 1: but also from other members of the LGBT community. There's

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Speaker 1: this sense of being too gay for straight spaces and

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Speaker 1: too straight for gay spaces. Have you experienced that sort

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Speaker 1: of double rejection?

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Speaker 2: You know what I've experienced, especially my history and my

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Speaker 2: background grew up in the country. I've got a you know,

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Speaker 2: an identical twin brother who played football as well, stoic

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Speaker 2: and strong. I definitely like I feel sometimes like I

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Speaker 2: question my own place in the queer community. And you know,

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Speaker 2: look at you, you're a white male privilege looking the

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Speaker 2: way you do, trying to step into our trauma that's

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Speaker 2: ours and I acknowledge that too, like the first one

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Speaker 2: to understand that and to admit my journey has been

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Speaker 2: relatively easy. The fact that I can see here and

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Speaker 2: say I'm comfortable and strong in talking about my sexuality

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Speaker 2: such a privilege, because I know there's so many people

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Speaker 2: out there, so many men out there that especially bisexual

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Speaker 2: men or straight presenting men with a strong masculine friendship group,

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Speaker 2: or you know, they may be married to a woman

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Speaker 2: or have a girlfriend that's a woman having these feelings

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Speaker 2: questioning or being attracted to another man and feeling shamed

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Speaker 2: and embarrassed about it. And part of the reason why

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Speaker 2: I wanted to share some of my experiences is so

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Speaker 2: those people, whether they want to start talking about it

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Speaker 2: with their partner or with their friends or someone in

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Speaker 2: their community, that they feel seen and that it's okay.

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Speaker 2: It's okay to have these feelings. You're not any less

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Speaker 2: of a man, whatever that means, you know. I remember

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Speaker 2: the comments from Gil McLaughlin, CEO of the AFL.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about them. He said that

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Speaker 1: he can understand why nobody has come out in the

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Speaker 1: men's game, because why would anybody want that burden? How

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Speaker 1: does that make you feel in the seat that you're

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Speaker 1: in now.

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Speaker 2: I remember those comments, and the conversation in the locker

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Speaker 2: room just exacerbated that fear even more. If you're a

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Speaker 2: gay man or a bisexual man, sitting in that locker

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Speaker 2: room because the players would be like, oh can you

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Speaker 2: imagine this?

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Speaker 1: This?

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Speaker 2: Or I even heard the one night, you know, I'd

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Speaker 2: even do it. I would even pretend so I could

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Speaker 2: get some money out of it or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: It's like, it's absurd, But I remember those comments, and

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Speaker 2: it's really easy for me as a pass player. You know,

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Speaker 2: I don't have to run out there at the MCG

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Speaker 2: in front of eighty thousand fans next week. I don't

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Speaker 2: have to fly over to a hostile Adelaide oval and

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Speaker 2: and fear the comments being thrown at me. But I

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Speaker 2: can imagine for a player that, you know, this is

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Speaker 2: their livelihood, this is a job, that a workplace that

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Speaker 2: provides income for their family and their future. Maybe it's

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Speaker 2: worth not saying anything and then having a football career,

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Speaker 2: successful football career, because if you don't say anything, I

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Speaker 2: can still and I'm still playing good football, and then

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Speaker 2: I can finish, retire and then sail off to the

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Speaker 2: sunset and go find my community.

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Speaker 1: So what would you say to them? Then? What would

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Speaker 1: you say to gay or bisexual men currently playing in

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Speaker 1: the AFL?

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Speaker 2: What I would say, and this is, you know, there

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Speaker 2: are currently games and bisexual men playing the AFL at

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Speaker 2: the moment and in the past. You know, I only

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Speaker 2: feel okay to I guess in quotations. Take this title.

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Speaker 2: This is not about me. It's not about Mitch Brown

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Speaker 2: being the first at all.

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Speaker 1: For me.

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Speaker 2: It's about sharing my experience so others can feel seen,

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Speaker 2: others can have a role model. I'm not famous. Previously,

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Speaker 2: many people wouldn't know that I'm played for ten years.

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Speaker 2: But to have someone and then maybe there will be

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Speaker 2: that second person, and then the third, maybe there'll be

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Speaker 2: a current player, and as that community grows, the empathy grows.

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Speaker 2: If this has an impact on one person, it's worth it.

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Speaker 2: It matters what are you.

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Speaker 1: Hoping That AFL says in response to hearing.

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Speaker 2: This interview, My advice to the AFL would be to

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Speaker 2: celebrate positive male role models. We celebrate the ones who

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Speaker 2: are successful in the eyes of whether it's wealth or

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Speaker 2: the amount of disposals you get on the weekend. You know,

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Speaker 2: CFL would be Let's celebrate the players. You know, they

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Speaker 2: may not be the most successful, but they are the

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Speaker 2: most important players in our community, the ones who are

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Speaker 2: walking down the street and portraying positive male role model.

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Speaker 2: All the time, do.

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Speaker 1: You think when there's players making homophobic slurs on the field,

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Speaker 1: like the one that we're talking about at the moment,

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Speaker 1: AzaC Grankin, as we head into a final series, do

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Speaker 1: you think that match bands is the tool that you

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Speaker 1: would be using to try and prevent these from happening

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Speaker 1: in the future.

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Speaker 2: I thought about this a lot, and you know, personally,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't affect me or I don't feel strongly either way,

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Speaker 2: whether you know a player cops a five week band

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Speaker 2: or a one week or nothing. What matters to me

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Speaker 2: most is a sense of change, a movement created where

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Speaker 2: you can be anyone and feel like you can be

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Speaker 2: anyone and be safe in any environment here in Australia,

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Speaker 2: and I understand, like I've got two young boys that

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Speaker 2: I love very much, and as a parent you often

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Speaker 2: think about what's the future of for them and what

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Speaker 2: do you want for them? And you know they're a

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Speaker 2: sporting nation. The boys are going to play sport. All

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Speaker 2: that I care about is there no matter of environment

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Speaker 2: they are, whether it's in the group chat, whether it's

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Speaker 2: in their basketball or footy team, whether it's at school,

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Speaker 2: they feel safe and comfortable to be whoever they want.

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Speaker 2: To be.

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Speaker 1: What do you hope they think when one day they're

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Speaker 1: a bit young now probably to sit through the length

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Speaker 1: of this, but what do you hope that they think

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Speaker 1: about you when they watch this one day?

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is one of my This is one

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Speaker 2: of my fears is you know, will they get bullied

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Speaker 2: when they get a bit older? You know what kind

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Speaker 2: of comments or articles will click on when they have

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Speaker 2: access to the internet. But overriding those thoughts, those negative thoughts,

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Speaker 2: I mean, they were proud. Last night I shared with

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Speaker 2: the boy's mum, my ex wife, Shay, what I was

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Speaker 2: going to do. I mean that was really important for me,

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Speaker 2: and I was to be honest worried about her reaction.

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Speaker 2: Would she will be worried about the reaction of the

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Speaker 2: community and how that would affect our two boys who

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Speaker 2: are very young. And it surprised me. She reacted really well.

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Speaker 2: She sent me a text message actually this morning and

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Speaker 2: I'd like to share it says good luck this morning.

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Speaker 2: I'm so proud of you and right behind you all

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Speaker 2: the way. This will make the world a slightly better

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Speaker 2: place for our boys and young men in Australia, hopefully

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Speaker 2: old men too. This is living the values of the

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Speaker 2: kind of man. I want our boys to grow up

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Speaker 2: to be men that care and are proud of who

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Speaker 2: they are. You know what matters most is starting a

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Speaker 2: chain reaction, starting a movement. I mean, I'm in this position,

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Speaker 2: strong and comfortable to, as Gil McLaughlin says, take the

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Speaker 2: burden and if that, if someone needed to do it,

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Speaker 2: I'm in the space to do it. And I've done it.

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Speaker 2: And hopefully this now provides the safety, the comfort and

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Speaker 2: the space for the second person. And I mean, who's

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Speaker 2: counting anyway?

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Speaker 1: You're shown unbelievable wisdom, maturity, compassion in this chat. Leave

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Speaker 1: us with some guidance. What's the best way for footy

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Speaker 1: fans and for your loved ones, even the ones or

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Speaker 1: especially the ones that are learning this for the first time.

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Speaker 1: What's the best way for them to show up? From here?

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Speaker 1: I'm interested for you, but also for the sport and

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Speaker 1: for the AFL and for young men in general. What

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Speaker 1: can we do?

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Speaker 2: I've mentioned the power of uplifting role models, and I've

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Speaker 2: mentioned the power of empathy. I think that if you

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Speaker 2: can find it somewhere in your heart, whether you're sitting

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Speaker 2: there watching football on the weekend or you're sitting next

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Speaker 2: to your brother, to have a sense of empathy, that hey,

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Speaker 2: they might be that very person that might be suppressing feelings,

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Speaker 2: They might be that person that is feeling so trapped

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Speaker 2: and unhappy because they can't be who they are. And

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Speaker 2: if they can have even a little bit of sense

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Speaker 2: of hey, you know what, it's okay. That sense of empathy,

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Speaker 2: even just a fraction, I think it will make it

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Speaker 2: a huge difference.

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Speaker 1: Mitch, thank you for showing up today and for being

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Speaker 1: the man that you are.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for providing the space.

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Speaker 1: Sale, thanks for joining us today, and importantly thank you

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Speaker 1: to Mitch for telling his story. If you need support

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Speaker 1: or someone to talk to at any time, you can

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Speaker 1: contact Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or queue life on

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Speaker 1: one eight hundred one eight four five two seven. We'll

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Speaker 1: speak to you on Monday. My name is Lily Maddon

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Speaker 1: and I'm a proud Arunda Bunjelung Kalkottin woman from Gadigol Country.

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Speaker 2: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 2: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to

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Speaker 2: all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations. We pay

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Speaker 2: our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both

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Speaker 2: past and present,