Speaker 1: Podcast Unite Our Voices. This podcast is brought to you
Speaker 1: by on Track Studio. Welcome to Yannier, the podcast that
Speaker 1: showcases First Nations stories and conversations to help us learn
Speaker 1: and unlearn Australia's history to work towards a better future.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, proud barber woman and founder of Black
Speaker 1: Wattel Coaching and Consulting, Caroline cow We acknowledge the rundery
Speaker 1: people and elders where this podcast is taped, but we
Speaker 1: also acknowledge the lands that you are listening in from today.
Speaker 1: It always was and always will be unseated Aboriginal and
Speaker 1: tourist Red Islander Land. Well, I'm so excited about today's
Speaker 1: conversation as some one who has i'd say, spent many
Speaker 1: years observing and pondering and screaming and looking into the
Speaker 1: sky ex essentially sort of crying out at times. I'm
Speaker 1: really grateful to be joined today by Karli Alinta noon
Speaker 1: A gamill Roy, author, astronomer, astrophysicists. I'd probably go so
Speaker 1: far as any black fellow to say in activists, who's
Speaker 1: really radically changing things? The first Aboriginal woman to graduate
Speaker 1: with a double degree in maths and science and just
Speaker 1: an all round legend who is really changing how we
Speaker 1: come to know aboriginal science. So I'm so grateful for
Speaker 1: you being here today. Welcome to Yanni Up.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much of my goodness. That was like
Speaker 2: the best intro I've ever received. I think, Oh, bless you, Oh,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for having me. I was so excited.
Speaker 2: I feel really lucky to be here. You know, I
Speaker 2: feel like yawning up. You know, from the outset looking in,
Speaker 2: it looks like a really deadly family. So I'm really
Speaker 2: stoked to be a part of it.
Speaker 1: Bless you so right, it is a big giant kinship,
Speaker 1: and yeah, the feeling is so mutual. And yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I must say, even looking at your bio in
Speaker 1: trying to surmise all of the wonderful things you have
Speaker 1: done and continuing to do, was not an easy feat.
Speaker 1: You are a hugely accomplished scholar doing such phenomenal work.
Speaker 1: So I'm excited to learn more not only about your work,
Speaker 1: but more about you. Sis. You know who you are
Speaker 1: and what's laid you to this part. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess you know. With that in mind, we always like
Speaker 1: to sort of start by just asking our guests to
Speaker 1: introduce themselves how they you know, would like to be introduced,
Speaker 1: or to describe themselves how they want to be described.
Speaker 2: Look, every time I do this, I think it's a
Speaker 2: bit different. But you know, I grew up on country,
Speaker 2: on Camillary country. I was really lucky. I was really
Speaker 2: blessed that I had that, and you know, still have
Speaker 2: that grounding me to this day. I grew up with
Speaker 2: my mum and my sister and a big line of
Speaker 2: matriarchs before me. My family is so like women dominated.
Speaker 2: We don't have many many in our families. So the
Speaker 2: women were just running wild. My mum and my sister
Speaker 2: had it pretty rough. They were, you know, very able
Speaker 2: in their bodily capacity. You know, I had a lot
Speaker 2: of health problems, a lot of social problems. You know,
Speaker 2: we grew up very very poor. We grew up in
Speaker 2: a suburb called cold Ol in Tamworth, which you know
Speaker 2: I love and I'm so proud to come from there
Speaker 2: and you know, go back and visit as much as
Speaker 2: I can. And but you know, it was rough and
Speaker 2: it's you know, you don't know that when you're going up,
Speaker 2: you know, you just do what you've got to do.
Speaker 2: But today, like, I'm so freaking blessed. I'm so freaking
Speaker 2: lucky that for so many reasons that I was born
Speaker 2: you know, with a relatively able body, you know, and
Speaker 2: I had a huge amount of passion and motivation and determination,
Speaker 2: like you know, to help my mom out, help my
Speaker 2: sister out. I always you know, wanted to be the
Speaker 2: one who could like buy the mayhouse and all this,
Speaker 2: and still haven't quite made it there, but still trying,
Speaker 2: still still working. That's a work in progress. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: do astronomy stuff and science stuff. I often think like
Speaker 2: anyone who was in the same situation that I was
Speaker 2: born in would probably be in a very similar place.
Speaker 2: Like I had all this support and motivation from my family,
Speaker 2: not just my mom and my sister, but from my
Speaker 2: grandma as well, and you know, just people really cheering
Speaker 2: me on. And when I started to you know, get
Speaker 2: a bit of a name for myself. Not that I
Speaker 2: try to like bignoe myself too much these days, but
Speaker 2: like you know, when communities started hearing my name a
Speaker 2: bit more, like I had so many arnies back home
Speaker 2: just like cheering for me, and just like, you know,
Speaker 2: I really do feel really blessed and just the result
Speaker 2: of all of these matriarchs who are you know, come
Speaker 2: before me and kind of allowed me to have the
Speaker 2: perceptions that I have, to have the insight that I
Speaker 2: have inside the country, you know, the values that I
Speaker 2: have in country, in the sky, in people, you know,
Speaker 2: expecting that the utmost from people from you know, the government,
Speaker 2: all these things. So yeah, I don't know, I don't
Speaker 2: know if that describes myself very much. I guess like
Speaker 2: if they were like dot points, you know, it would be.
Speaker 2: So I'm a descendant from actually both capillary and Rovegerie nations.
Speaker 2: I'm getting a bit older now. I'm not old, but
Speaker 2: I'm getting a bit older, and I think that you know,
Speaker 2: I'm I'm thirty four now, and I've been doing this
Speaker 2: for a little bit for about fifteen years, you know,
Speaker 2: I've been kind of working professionally and doing like science
Speaker 2: communication and communication in general, and over that time, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: just that motivation from from back home really really pushed
Speaker 2: me through that and helped me with start and guided
Speaker 2: me through that as well.
Speaker 1: So I love it. I mean, this is why it's
Speaker 1: so beautiful to start there and as mob we do
Speaker 1: this so inherently, but I think it does start to
Speaker 1: give us a bit of a glimpse into you know,
Speaker 1: not just all of the wonderful contributions you've made, but
Speaker 1: hearing about your early life and you know, growing up
Speaker 1: on country surrounded by women who dominated and were bold
Speaker 1: and ambitious and unapologetic sounds like breeding grounds for somebody
Speaker 1: who can go ahead and achieve such milestone. So it's
Speaker 1: it's fascinating because that's all related to what you're you know,
Speaker 1: burthing into the world now, these these early experiences. So
Speaker 1: it's kind of really beautiful to hear that and that
Speaker 1: your family have been in your corner supporting you because
Speaker 1: we need it, because it's a heart I imagine being
Speaker 1: the first of anything for any mob, but particularly as
Speaker 1: a woman, especially as a person of color, you know,
Speaker 1: navigating an un charted traversing that on your own, you
Speaker 1: need that support behind you. So it's beautiful to hear
Speaker 1: my sister.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like there were many times like I never you know,
Speaker 2: I never grew up particularly well educated, Like I spent
Speaker 2: a lot of time at home growing up. I didn't
Speaker 2: go to school very much. I was actually I would
Speaker 2: get in trouble a lot for not going to school
Speaker 2: and that's because you know, I had responsibility at home.
Speaker 2: I had to look after mum, and we're poor. You know,
Speaker 2: It's it's really hard to get to school and you
Speaker 2: don't have lunch, you don't have you don't have a
Speaker 2: washing machine, you don't have a uniform like and so
Speaker 2: like I was always playing catch up at school at UNI,
Speaker 2: like I was never you know, at the same level
Speaker 2: as my peers. And it's really freaking hard when you
Speaker 2: have so much going on in the outside to you know,
Speaker 2: get to the study and to go through that grind
Speaker 2: and go to the classes and you know, give your
Speaker 2: all to the assignments and the homework and all that,
Speaker 2: and to be so different all your peers who you know,
Speaker 2: this is this is the same for any any woman
Speaker 2: going through this as well, not just you know, not
Speaker 2: just indigenous or form a minority, but any woman going
Speaker 2: through science as well. You know, all your peers are male,
Speaker 2: and they're all incredibly privileged, which is just not relatable
Speaker 2: to a lot of us. So honestly, my mum, she
Speaker 2: she is one hundred percent of the reason I got there.
Speaker 2: And my sister, you know, when just those times when
Speaker 2: I'm so exhausted I'm sobern out, I'm so beaten by
Speaker 2: it all, and just to be able to call, you know,
Speaker 2: my family and and you know, cry and have doubts
Speaker 2: and be scared and just for them to just be
Speaker 2: cheeringly on the whole way. Just absolutely never question my
Speaker 2: ability to do it and never also never question what
Speaker 2: I'm doing, you know it can you can the amount
Speaker 2: of times I've questioned, you know, do I belong here?
Speaker 2: Like should I be here? It's this isn't really form,
Speaker 2: like this isn't built for me, so like why am
Speaker 2: I doing this? But for them? Like you know, my
Speaker 2: mom never knew what physics was. There was never something
Speaker 2: that you know, she she had to know what it was,
Speaker 2: but she never questioned that I could do it or
Speaker 2: that I should be there. And just having that like
Speaker 2: you know, unwavering support and love like I literally wouldn't
Speaker 2: wouldn't be here without it.
Speaker 1: Wow, I'm just taking that in because that's truly so
Speaker 1: so beautiful to hear, my sis, Because to have that
Speaker 1: unconditional love and acceptance when we need to draw on
Speaker 1: the strength and being grounded and humbled in an environment
Speaker 1: like you say, that's not built for us. We don't
Speaker 1: see ourselves. We have no privilege, our proximity to whiteness
Speaker 1: and imperialism, and our sense of identity and belonging. I
Speaker 1: imagine it would bring up a whole flurry of very
Speaker 1: normal feelings about my identity and my and my adequacy.
Speaker 1: And it's just beautiful to hear that throughout it that
Speaker 1: you had your family there. But I know also too
Speaker 1: that it's you know, it's a reciprocal thing. It was family,
Speaker 1: but it was also your ability to you know, push
Speaker 1: through and produce and do this as well. And with that,
Speaker 1: my sister, you know, I was reading, which I would
Speaker 1: love to understand. You know, I was reading and you
Speaker 1: mentioned it before that you know, you you, like most
Speaker 1: black followers who are struggling to survive and are caring
Speaker 1: to be self actualizing and learning and even getting ourselves
Speaker 1: to school is a hard feat. And so I read
Speaker 1: you know that growing up you didn't really like science
Speaker 1: or maths or anything. So what was the shift from say,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, early life family into going right, I'm
Speaker 1: going to try my hand at becoming an astrophysicist and
Speaker 1: a scientist. What was there was there a change within
Speaker 1: yourself and was it sort of supported by the environment.
Speaker 1: Was there anything that led to it? Yeah, king to
Speaker 1: to know the journey.
Speaker 2: That's a really great question. And you know, it's something
Speaker 2: that I've spent a lot of time reflecting on. And
Speaker 2: it wasn't like one change. It was. It was so
Speaker 2: many different things kind of all coming together for it
Speaker 2: to you know, end up like this. I think that
Speaker 2: one of the earliest and biggest things that impacted me
Speaker 2: was so my grandma had had this really close friend
Speaker 2: and you know this she was. She was an older lady.
Speaker 2: She was an older Aboriginal lady, and you know, she
Speaker 2: had many grains kids and she was just this the
Speaker 2: loveliest woman. And she'd come down to coldal and she
Speaker 2: should go to like a bunch of you know, family
Speaker 2: homes and tut to us. Tutor us are free for
Speaker 2: you know, the kids who were struggling a bit, not
Speaker 2: really engaging with school. And she, you know, she had
Speaker 2: gone to UNI and she had this this you know,
Speaker 2: flash job, and it was like it was kind of multifaceted.
Speaker 2: Like it was really impactful for me because it, you know,
Speaker 2: I was exposed to someone who had gone to university,
Speaker 2: gotten a job, was still working. You know. That was
Speaker 2: pretty pretty rare in my family. Well for a bunch
Speaker 2: of reasons, but mostly just you know, when you're struggling
Speaker 2: with multiple disabilities, it's just not viable. The workforce is
Speaker 2: just not accessible for you. And so, you know, I'd
Speaker 2: never really seen examples of that before, so being exposed
Speaker 2: to this deadly, deadly Annie and for her to help,
Speaker 2: just out of the kindness of her heart, you know,
Speaker 2: I wanted to do her so proud. And she would
Speaker 2: come and she would would play these little mass games
Speaker 2: and you know, would be giggling and I'd be laughing,
Speaker 2: and I'd get one wrong and she would, you know,
Speaker 2: make fun of it, and you know, it just turned
Speaker 2: it into this really instead of being like shamed for
Speaker 2: not knowing anything, you know, she just made it this
Speaker 2: like an opportunity to learn this fun thing that i'dn't
Speaker 2: really honestly never experienced before. And I know so many
Speaker 2: kids out there have that same experience where school is
Speaker 2: not fun, school is rough. School is you know, it
Speaker 2: can be the most isolating an ostracizing thing when you know,
Speaker 2: when your mom, when you're when you're poor, when you know,
Speaker 2: for me, I was always the scabby kid, always the
Speaker 2: stinky kid like all of these things, right, but she
Speaker 2: just really yeah, turned mass into this really fun, enjoyable
Speaker 2: thing for me. So I think that was definitely the
Speaker 2: biggest impact. And she taught me a lot. She taught
Speaker 2: me that I don't need to depend on school to learn,
Speaker 2: and and that's something that has that that was honestly
Speaker 2: a gift that just keeps giving up until now. So
Speaker 2: like I'm doing my PhD, I spend all of my time,
Speaker 2: you know, learning on my own. It's it's completely self driven.
Speaker 2: And and that was something that she taught me how
Speaker 2: to do. But when when science, you know, I didn't
Speaker 2: go into science initially, I always wanted to go to UNI,
Speaker 2: you know, as I said, I wanted to get my mom,
Speaker 2: get my mom the house. So I didn't go into
Speaker 2: science initially. I went into I went into arts. I
Speaker 2: was really into ancient history, and so I went into
Speaker 2: ancient history and did a few different things. Did some sociology,
Speaker 2: did some religion, some philosophy. Just was kind of all
Speaker 2: over the place, and I just kind of stumbled across physics.
Speaker 2: I I was learning about the multiverse. I was reading
Speaker 2: a book by Stephen Hawking for a philosophy course. And
Speaker 2: I just you know, it was the first time I'd
Speaker 2: ever really been exposed to physics. I was not someone
Speaker 2: who had access to you know, science or anythink at
Speaker 2: school that was you know that I was legitimately told
Speaker 2: that physics was for boys at high school. So like,
Speaker 2: I just it wasn't even a thing in my mind.
Speaker 2: I was just like, that's not for me. But then
Speaker 2: when I read this book, I was like, what, this
Speaker 2: is the most interesting thing I've ever learned, Like why
Speaker 2: have I not known about this before now? And then
Speaker 2: I was just so like just captured by it, like
Speaker 2: I just yeah, became I just fell in love, to
Speaker 2: be honest, and was just like I want to do this,
Speaker 2: like if I could do anything. And I already felt
Speaker 2: like I was living the dream, right. I got into
Speaker 2: UNI like no one in my family had had been
Speaker 2: them before or experienced it before. So it was like,
Speaker 2: all right, I have this opportunity. I'm going to make
Speaker 2: the most of it, and I'm going to do something
Speaker 2: that excites me and interests me and that I want
Speaker 2: to do. And so yeah, that was it. I just transferred.
Speaker 2: Well and then you know what followed was years and
Speaker 2: years and years of a lot of hard work and
Speaker 2: a lot of learning, and a lot of picking myself
Speaker 2: back up. And I think that, you know, I don't
Speaker 2: really have any amazing skills or anything like that. I'm
Speaker 2: not particularly bright or anything like that. But my skill
Speaker 2: set is picking being able to pick myself back up.
Speaker 2: That's that's what it's kind of gotten me here. So
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, that's that's what I have to thank
Speaker 2: to be honest.
Speaker 1: Wow, gosh, just taking that in, you know, having a
Speaker 1: majoring in being able to yeah, push through the adversity
Speaker 1: and all of the things. Wow, it's so so powerful.
Speaker 1: And I guess I just wonder whether that Annie girl
Speaker 1: knows how her guidance and you know, her ability to
Speaker 1: teach and inspire would have known, like if she could
Speaker 1: even conceptualize into the future, that that would have led
Speaker 1: to you going on this path. And and like you say,
Speaker 1: I think the beautiful realization that you know, a degree
Speaker 1: or the the qualification doesn't necessarily make you. It doesn't
Speaker 1: make or break you, but it will help you. But
Speaker 1: what's going on inside here is always the fundamentally most
Speaker 1: important part of the journey of the learning of self
Speaker 1: and and and the struggle. Like it's like you say,
Speaker 1: it's special to hear that that role that that Arni
Speaker 1: played in inspiring you and making mauth is fun. Like, yeah, ways,
Speaker 1: I love that a legend.
Speaker 2: People people study for years to learn that to be
Speaker 2: able to do that and still fail. Like, but I
Speaker 2: I think the biggest thing that Annie had was that
Speaker 2: she believed in us, right. She believed in not you know,
Speaker 2: not necessarily like our potential or whatever. It wasn't that
Speaker 2: she believed in our worth. She saw us as worthy
Speaker 2: to have access to these things, to have access to
Speaker 2: the world. Right when you grow up extremely poor in
Speaker 2: a place like Cold Ol, you don't have many options
Speaker 2: and you have very you know, you have people that
Speaker 2: just inherently hate you. Your teachers, your peers, they just
Speaker 2: because because of all those things, right, because you are different,
Speaker 2: because you're poor, because you know, they you're everything that
Speaker 2: they fear to become themselves. And yeah, so I think
Speaker 2: you know, it was it was really our usability to
Speaker 2: be to see us as as as people and worthy
Speaker 2: of love.
Speaker 1: M Wow, so truly special. And you know, I think
Speaker 1: with that, it's just a reminder of our oldest teachers
Speaker 1: on earth and which are our elders, you know, and yeah,
Speaker 1: that we all are worthy and you're right, like you know,
Speaker 1: when you there's this sort of nexus to with class
Speaker 1: and race that we do internalize that sense of belonging
Speaker 1: and that sense of inadequacy. We have to do double
Speaker 1: the work with less the resources, and you know, we're
Speaker 1: in chronically unsafe environments and we're met with, you know,
Speaker 1: this unwavering sort of disdain that we don't belong and
Speaker 1: so you know, I just want to say, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: so enamored and with the ability to just keep going.
Speaker 1: Like you say, there's so many times, I mean, my
Speaker 1: research or my work nowhere near extensive, where I've thought
Speaker 1: of giving up halfway and just thought is this, you know,
Speaker 1: could I just go work in a coffee shop and
Speaker 1: just deal with you know, the mundane and whether I
Speaker 1: would feel fulfilled? And it's such a heart led space
Speaker 1: when you're pouring into this work, especially the work you're doing.
Speaker 1: So I appreciate learning more about you, my Cisio. It's
Speaker 1: beautiful to hear your personal story, and I just know
Speaker 1: that would resonate with a lot of people to who
Speaker 1: have the world on their shoulders. When we get out
Speaker 1: of poverty and the struggle too. You know, it's such
Speaker 1: a it's such a nuance like spectrum conversation.
Speaker 3: Hey, I guess, you know, for the lay people like
Speaker 3: myself or just people who don't know, could we maybe
Speaker 3: unpack these you know, we might have a very superficial view.
Speaker 1: I think some of us know astronomy from you know,
Speaker 1: Instagram titles and things. But you know, I want to
Speaker 1: unpack you for those who might not know, what is
Speaker 1: an astronomer and an astrophysicist, Like what are some of
Speaker 1: the types of things that you have done or do
Speaker 1: in these fields of work? And then I want to
Speaker 1: overlay it with what's an aboriginal astronomers an aboriginal astrophysicist too?
Speaker 2: Of course, okayy, this is a fun question. So I
Speaker 2: guess you know, for a long time, just just by
Speaker 2: merit of how you know how the Western system works,
Speaker 2: you spend a hell of a lot of time just learning.
Speaker 2: You're just learning and learning and learning and taking it
Speaker 2: all in for years and years and years. And you know,
Speaker 2: I've been at UNI since I was nineteen, so, you know,
Speaker 2: fifteen years that UNI, and I'm only now really getting
Speaker 2: hands on experience with being an astronomer. So for me,
Speaker 2: what that looks like is I spend a lot of
Speaker 2: time looking at data and you know, I think I
Speaker 2: think it's pretty safe to say that we have some
Speaker 2: of the most beautiful data sets in the world or
Speaker 2: in the universe. And you know, we're really lucky that
Speaker 2: we we're looking at just these incredible objects. And you know,
Speaker 2: lots of different people look at lots of different things.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of different objects out there that you
Speaker 2: could be studying and researching. For me, I'm particularly interested
Speaker 2: in the Milky Way galaxy, which is our home galaxy.
Speaker 2: It's where we live, and for me, that just felt
Speaker 2: really cozy. It's like I'm not going too far away
Speaker 2: from home. And I'm particularly interested in the fuel of
Speaker 2: the galaxy, what fuels the galaxy to keep going. So,
Speaker 2: you know, galaxies can run out of fuel and then
Speaker 2: once that happens, they stop creating stars. So galaxies are
Speaker 2: like these star making mission that's their their function. And
Speaker 2: of course we know that, you know, once a star
Speaker 2: is born, planets are also born around that star, and
Speaker 2: so you know, this is where all of life is.
Speaker 2: It's within these star systems and these rocky planets that
Speaker 2: revolve around you know, stars, like our Sun. Maybe they
Speaker 2: existing in other forms, but that's the only one that
Speaker 2: we know of so far. And so yeah, I'm really
Speaker 2: interested in how do the galaxies keep going, how do
Speaker 2: they continue to make stars? You know, we know everything
Speaker 2: is finite. That's true in astronomy, just as it's true
Speaker 2: here on Earth. And so I use radio observations to
Speaker 2: do this. Radio observations it's like putting on a very
Speaker 2: special type of glasses and seeing light that we wouldn't
Speaker 2: normally be able to see with just our human eye,
Speaker 2: and so we get a really really different, but really
Speaker 2: beautiful view of the universe. And so I use radio
Speaker 2: telescopes like the one in Parks. So there's a really large, incredible,
Speaker 2: world class telescope in Parks. Could marry young And yeah,
Speaker 2: I get to take pictures of these little pockets of
Speaker 2: gas that could potentially go on to create new stars
Speaker 2: one day, and I try and understand how they move
Speaker 2: around the galaxy. And so that's really where that physics
Speaker 2: term comes in when you hear astrophysicists. My role is
Speaker 2: really to understand the physics of how these little gas
Speaker 2: pockets survive, which we call them clouds, how they move
Speaker 2: around the galaxy, how the galaxy moves as a whole.
Speaker 2: So that's kind of my job. I get to look
Speaker 2: at these beautiful images of these beautiful space cloud and
Speaker 2: I also get to use because you know, we don't
Speaker 2: Astronomy is a very difficult science, not just because everything
Speaker 2: is so far away, but because we can't replicate anything.
Speaker 2: Right as a chemist or a biologist, you can kind
Speaker 2: of create experiments, but we don't have that privilege. We
Speaker 2: can't create you know, another universe. So you know what
Speaker 2: we do is we use computers. We use supercomputers to
Speaker 2: do that and to literally generate galaxies or universes and
Speaker 2: to try and understand you know, the physics that way
Speaker 2: and run different experiments and try and gain some insight
Speaker 2: from that. So I'm in a really really special place.
Speaker 2: I get to combine both you know, the reality the
Speaker 2: observations with the simulations, which are really you know, our
Speaker 2: best estimate or estimate of what this scenario is or
Speaker 2: our best attempt at being able to describe the galaxy.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I've been really lucky. I mean, I would
Speaker 2: to pick up these two very useful skill sets, and
Speaker 2: I think that's you know, it's a bit daunting, but
Speaker 2: I think you know, as yeah, as you were saying before,
Speaker 2: you know, you kind of do crave the mundane when
Speaker 2: things get really hard. But I often think to myself, like, oh, this,
Speaker 2: like silly little computer simulation is knowing me as scary
Speaker 2: or as difficult as all the crap that I've dragged
Speaker 2: myself through before. So yeah, I definitely don't take it
Speaker 2: too seriously and try to see it as you know,
Speaker 2: it's kind of play. It's kind of fun for me,
Speaker 2: and I love it. You know. I'm so lucky to
Speaker 2: be able to be there and to be able to
Speaker 2: look at these things and study these things. And it's
Speaker 2: in a way it's kind of a gift that I've
Speaker 2: given to myself. It's like, you know, I I was
Speaker 2: kind of selfish in a way. I was like, I
Speaker 2: chose something that was just so beautiful and so wonderful
Speaker 2: and I will never feel guilty about it, and I'll
Speaker 2: never regret that choice no matter how hard it gets.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the thing, right, Any job or
Speaker 1: passion that brings us too closer to a state of
Speaker 1: wonder and awe and curiosity is a beautiful thing. I
Speaker 1: mean to be self actualizing. My mind is just blown.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so amazing to hear that. So you
Speaker 1: are literally studying what fuels the galaxy, which fuels all
Speaker 1: of us. I mean from an existential perspective, I don't
Speaker 1: know how you would zone in from the galaxy to
Speaker 1: grassroots to all things. You know, it would be real challenge.
Speaker 1: But that is sounds so cool to be able to
Speaker 1: observe these incredible phenomenas and what makes more stars. That's
Speaker 1: just incredible. Will be back you, Lob right after his
Speaker 1: short break.
Speaker 2: I kind of find it as as something that you know,
Speaker 2: as I said, it's kind of a gift I've given
Speaker 2: to myself. You know, as blackfellows, we don't really you know,
Speaker 2: some of us threw and but just from how I
Speaker 2: was brought up and you know, coming up as a Milleroy,
Speaker 2: you know, and having the deadly olders that we have
Speaker 2: and the staunch olders that we have, you know, we
Speaker 2: have to deal with so much, so much crowd, so
Speaker 2: much is so much harm that's done to us as people,
Speaker 2: that's done to us as you know, done to our countries,
Speaker 2: and you know we feel it across nations. You know,
Speaker 2: it's not you see another nation, you know, dealing with
Speaker 2: with the colony, and and you know exactly how that feels,
Speaker 2: and you can't you can't not feel it. And so
Speaker 2: you know, having having my day job as a place
Speaker 2: where I can kind of not have to deal with
Speaker 2: that all the time. And you know, I know people
Speaker 2: people need that and they need to be in that
Speaker 2: space all the time. But I just knew for me,
Speaker 2: I couldn't. It's something that I will always deal with
Speaker 2: and I will I will am to literally give it
Speaker 2: all the energy I can when I can. But I
Speaker 2: knew that I also needed this place where where you know,
Speaker 2: I felt safe and yeah, I could just kind of
Speaker 2: think about something beautiful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just switch off to the stars and the moon quietly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, not like I feel you since and I can.
Speaker 1: I think that's a really brave and beautiful thing to say,
Speaker 1: is that, you know, for black fives, we don't have
Speaker 1: the ability to turn off from what we're experiencing collectively.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I don't think that there's anything
Speaker 1: controversial at all about or radical about having chosen or
Speaker 1: having that knowing within ourselves when we need to find
Speaker 1: our own crafts and passions, we can then pouring. It
Speaker 1: kind of makes us more expansive to pouring when we
Speaker 1: when we do. And so I think that that's a
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful knowing. And gosh, I would love to
Speaker 1: zoom out and look at the galaxy every now and
Speaker 1: then instead of you know, trying to think about you know,
Speaker 1: decolonizing well being and mental health strategy. So wow, that's
Speaker 1: so so special, I mean with that in mindsets. You know,
Speaker 1: you've co authored a book Sky Country, which really explored,
Speaker 1: I guess, the connections between Aboriginal environmental and cultural practices,
Speaker 1: and through some of your work, you know, you have
Speaker 1: reaffirmed some Indigenous knowledges and one of the particular findings
Speaker 1: that I read was around the moon Halo. I'm wondering
Speaker 1: if you could talk about, you know, yeah, what it's
Speaker 1: like being an Indigenous scientist in this space. You know,
Speaker 1: I'd love just sort of talk a little bit around
Speaker 1: the indigenous work you've done in especially you know, that
Speaker 1: finding and other things in the book. But then also
Speaker 1: you know how you did navigate it as a black
Speaker 1: follower in a very white space.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's really funny like the Aboriginal astronomy space
Speaker 2: traditionally and I use that term traditionally in a very
Speaker 2: modern sense. You know, in the past one hundred years
Speaker 2: or so has been entirely led by non Indigenous people.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's only until very recently, in the
Speaker 2: past thirty years or so, that MOB have kind of
Speaker 2: been able to take up a bit of space there.
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of reasons, and you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of you know, a lot of progress was made
Speaker 2: in that field to allow us to do that, right,
Speaker 2: Like I don't want to, you know, I think we
Speaker 2: kind of forget the fact that it wasn't that long
Speaker 2: ago that we weren't considered human. You know, when my
Speaker 2: mum was born, she was not considered human. And you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not even going to go into the horrors that
Speaker 2: my grandma experienced as a little girl. But you know,
Speaker 2: it's it's only been very recently that you know, despite
Speaker 2: mob's knowledge in astronomy being so well recorded and documented,
Speaker 2: it's still only very recently that that has been accepted
Speaker 2: and believed to be honest. And so it's a really
Speaker 2: interesting field. You know, if I could define Aboriginal astronomy,
Speaker 2: which you know, myself and Tea christ Or do in
Speaker 2: the book, or we attempt to anyway. Is it's kind
Speaker 2: of there's kind of three different ways that indigenous astronomy
Speaker 2: or abriginal astronomy kind of sits. So there's the there's
Speaker 2: the knowledge, the astronomical knowledge that that mob have and
Speaker 2: hold and know and practice and share day in day out.
Speaker 2: There knowledge that goes into so many of our traditions,
Speaker 2: our culture, our ways of living and existing and knowing
Speaker 2: each other and relating to each other and relating to
Speaker 2: other kin and to totems and you know, all everything.
Speaker 2: It touches everything. It was such you know, traditional life, living,
Speaker 2: living with mob, living you know, on country and alongside
Speaker 2: our totems. It was so important to know the sky,
Speaker 2: to know the stars and the planets and the cycles.
Speaker 2: So there's that. Another definition I would give it is
Speaker 2: the knowledge that has been documented and interpreted and reinterpreted
Speaker 2: by early settlers, explorers, more recently academics and scholars, all
Speaker 2: entirely non indigenous peoples. And so that's a really separate
Speaker 2: body of knowledge. And I by no means wish to
Speaker 2: at all disrespect that or put any taint or shame
Speaker 2: on that. But it's purely like I think it's really
Speaker 2: important that we do acknowledge. These are very separate systems.
Speaker 2: I think one of the biggest difference that I've really
Speaker 2: come to appreciate is that when we have the knowledge
Speaker 2: that has been interpreted and reinterpreted, it really sits extracted
Speaker 2: from a lot of other connected knowledges that you know,
Speaker 2: when when there you know, this knowledge sits within its
Speaker 2: its context, it sits within its stories and its song lines,
Speaker 2: and it's it's ceremonies, and it's you know, it's it's traditions.
Speaker 2: It's not just astronomy. It's so many different things that
Speaker 2: are overlaid and interconnected. But when we you know, document
Speaker 2: this knowledge, or you know, when it has been documented,
Speaker 2: it's because of how the Western system education system is,
Speaker 2: everything is you know, extracted and complementalized. And so we
Speaker 2: have this astronomical knowledge that is traditional knowledge, but it's
Speaker 2: been changed, it's been extracted in a way. So there's
Speaker 2: that body of knowledge. And then the third body of
Speaker 2: knowledge that I would mention is very much the intersection
Speaker 2: between the two. And that's very much an emerging space.
Speaker 2: And I think the fact that universities are becoming a
Speaker 2: bit more able to engage with community and as community
Speaker 2: are somewhat more willing to engage with these institutions. That
Speaker 2: body of knowledge. You know, I actually see so much
Speaker 2: hope and so much, like I guess, potential in that
Speaker 2: body of knowledge. You know, these two systems coming together
Speaker 2: and working together because you know, we we just have
Speaker 2: so much wisdom in our cultures, in our you know,
Speaker 2: the stories that have been handed down to us, and
Speaker 2: our perceptions, how we see things and how we you
Speaker 2: you know, the cosmos and our connectedness to it. And
Speaker 2: so that's that's kind of la an emerging space. I
Speaker 2: kind of view it it and you know, I can
Speaker 2: only hope that it continues to emerge and to grow
Speaker 2: into flourish, and you know, hopefully we can we can
Speaker 2: learn and listen together and with each other and from
Speaker 2: each other. But as for you know, my experience coming
Speaker 2: up in this, it's been really interesting. It's been really
Speaker 2: eye opening. You know, I was very much flung into
Speaker 2: this space. It's it's really funny when you are a
Speaker 2: black feller and you're in a space that you're you know,
Speaker 2: people people aren't used to you being there, or used
Speaker 2: to having black fellows in that space, and they do
Speaker 2: try to put you in that Black Fellow space. Like
Speaker 2: you know, it has been a little bit of a
Speaker 2: challenge for me to be viewed as a scientist and
Speaker 2: not not just the Aboriginal woman who just happens to
Speaker 2: be in this space for one reason or another. And
Speaker 2: and it's it's been interesting because you know, I have
Speaker 2: cause bring my culture and and my community with me
Speaker 2: in whatever space I'm in. But it has been, yeah,
Speaker 2: quite interesting that I was there was this kind of
Speaker 2: attempt to see me as you know, pushed me down
Speaker 2: this pathway where I was. I wasn't doing you know,
Speaker 2: the Western science, but I was more doing doing the
Speaker 2: Blackfellow science, which I still do and will always do. Right,
Speaker 2: that's not something that you you can just not be
Speaker 2: engaged in and participating. You when you are a Blackfellow.
Speaker 2: You know, that's how it goes. And it's an honor
Speaker 2: to have access to these youngs. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: you know that's I have this whole other training and
Speaker 2: skill set and profession that I've been honing and working
Speaker 2: on fifteen years now. So yeah, look, it's been interesting
Speaker 2: being flung into that kind of space quite young and
Speaker 2: quite naive, was quite turbulent to be honest, there were
Speaker 2: lots of ups and down. So many ups though, like
Speaker 2: so many opportunities and people really cheering you on, and really,
Speaker 2: you know, I think we've kind of there was this
Speaker 2: moment where this type of knowledge and this type of
Speaker 2: acceptance of you know, mob's cleverness, it just really launched off,
Speaker 2: like it just really picked up, and you know, people
Speaker 2: are just more and more interested in, you know, the
Speaker 2: clever ways in which our old people existed and lived
Speaker 2: and you know, all their teachings. So yeah, it's it's
Speaker 2: honestly such a I'm I'm really lucky. I'm really blessed,
Speaker 2: and I feel like we're all really lucky to be
Speaker 2: able to learn the things that we now kind of
Speaker 2: have more access to.
Speaker 1: It's still obviously something we need to work on for
Speaker 1: all of our mobs, and I definitely know that some
Speaker 1: of us are the anomalies in our families, which is
Speaker 1: not shouldn't be the norm, but you know, it's also
Speaker 1: one of those things that I remind myself that there
Speaker 1: are doors and spaces that are open for me that
Speaker 1: it would never open for my mum or my nan
Speaker 1: as well, and that we should be like I know
Speaker 1: that we have a lot of work ahead of us,
Speaker 1: especially our generation. I'm the same age as you. I
Speaker 1: feel like we're in between this sort of like space,
Speaker 1: and so you know, we have to use the responsibility
Speaker 1: wisely that we get with this. It's not just for
Speaker 1: for hours. It's so counter to the Western hyperviitualized. I'll
Speaker 1: go get a degree, and you know, we have to
Speaker 1: continually pour back. And so I want to touch on
Speaker 1: a few things you've said, which there's so much and
Speaker 1: you know, even to the listeners, you know, just to
Speaker 1: go back and really take on board the delicate, rich
Speaker 1: nuance of some of the things you said around the
Speaker 1: aboriginal astronomy. But I want to just stay with your
Speaker 1: personal experience first, because I always like to stay with self.
Speaker 1: But it's almost like this is why I love having
Speaker 1: these young with black fellows here and in my life,
Speaker 1: because we have this such complicated path sometimes around you know,
Speaker 1: you've been learning for fifteen years. It's like you have
Speaker 1: to go out and learn and learn and then basically unlearn, unravel,
Speaker 1: unbecome undo, and then recreate based off you know, the
Speaker 1: knowledge that you learn in community or you know, and
Speaker 1: so it's such a process that is you know, when
Speaker 1: we learn a science and so you know, thinking about
Speaker 1: what you said before around the three areas of the
Speaker 1: book and science generally, which is you know this indigenous
Speaker 1: knowledge is and you know you think about it. You know,
Speaker 1: blackfellows are the older scientists in the world if you
Speaker 1: think about and I'm a I'm not a scientist, but
Speaker 1: I'm social scientist. But nah, but you know, like science
Speaker 1: in its basics sort of as I understand it is
Speaker 1: a theory which can be proven or disproven. And so
Speaker 1: you know, if you think about mob who have studied,
Speaker 1: you know, observed, watched, archived, and then so much so
Speaker 1: they can predict future events and algorithms. I mean, we
Speaker 1: we are the older scientist and the relationship between guy
Speaker 1: people country and living and thriving is as long as millennia, right,
Speaker 1: And so it's interesting to hear that, you know, without
Speaker 1: when we look at science within our context, within our law,
Speaker 1: and within our frameworks, that it's so counter to what
Speaker 1: modern science is about, which you say, is that second layer,
Speaker 1: which is around extracting discovery, its opposed to taking like
Speaker 1: community and cultural rigor over scientific rigor as well. And
Speaker 1: so it's just so fascinating to hear that. You know,
Speaker 1: we still even though we have credentials and knowledge, we
Speaker 1: still have to continually prove that our science is a
Speaker 1: science and that we're not some pseudoscience sort of you know,
Speaker 1: this is proven. Are you seeing a change in how
Speaker 1: people are, Yeah, incorporating and understanding indigenous knowledges to the
Speaker 1: extent in which you know, it's making some impact. I mean,
Speaker 1: I loved the third element of the research which you said,
Speaker 1: which was this integrated approach. But yeah, you're seeing people
Speaker 1: take our science more seriously. In short.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I think I think it comes hand in hand.
Speaker 2: We're taking us more seriously rights as sovereign people, as
Speaker 2: land owners, as coming from the land, and being country. Right.
Speaker 2: We are representatives off country. We are a part of country.
Speaker 2: We don't live and work on country. We are country.
Speaker 2: And so I definitely see that being taken more seriously
Speaker 2: and our rights and as a result, you know, the
Speaker 2: people listen and people are way more willing to listen.
Speaker 2: You know, one of the first things I learned going
Speaker 2: to school. So I went to an Aboriginal pre school
Speaker 2: based in hold out the best, the absolute best, and
Speaker 2: you know, all my cousins were there and like you know,
Speaker 2: an uncle would come and pick me up and drop
Speaker 2: me off each day, like it was beautiful, beautiful memories.
Speaker 2: And then when I went into a mainstream primary school,
Speaker 2: one of the first things I learned about Aboriginal people
Speaker 2: was that they couldn't do maths. And so, you know,
Speaker 2: this is in the nineties, mid nineties, and so I
Speaker 2: think like as a as a nation, as as you know,
Speaker 2: as Australia, we have absolutely come very very far in
Speaker 2: honoring and respecting our old people, our communities, our nations,
Speaker 2: and their cultures and traditions. And with that, of course,
Speaker 2: you know, comes the things that we want to talk
Speaker 2: about and that we we're proud of. And so for me,
Speaker 2: of course, that's astronomy. You know, I'm so proud of that,
Speaker 2: and I'm so proud to be Aboriginal, of course, and
Speaker 2: to really be able to, you know, promote and celebrate
Speaker 2: how clever our old people are. And so, you know,
Speaker 2: I think it's it's not just it's not just the sciences.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, for a long time, I think
Speaker 2: we've been pretty acknowledged and respected in certain spaces like
Speaker 2: environmental sciences. I think I think we've been acknowledged therefore
Speaker 2: for quite a while now. But I think, you know,
Speaker 2: it's just we're just being noticed in all these areas
Speaker 2: that we've just excelled, and you know, our cultures excel
Speaker 2: at and our knowledge systems you know, lends itself to
Speaker 2: and so you know, absolutely in astronomy, but I think
Speaker 2: more broadly just as as people and also seeing you know,
Speaker 2: I think it's kind of an interesting it's a very
Speaker 2: interesting time obviously for many many reasons. But I think, like,
Speaker 2: you know, we're kind of seeing the cracks in Western
Speaker 2: civilization and this myth that has been sold for hundreds
Speaker 2: of years now about you know, civilized society and non
Speaker 2: civilized you know, the savages or whatever, and how it's
Speaker 2: just so unbelievably inaccurate. And it's so it's so much
Speaker 2: easier to see now because we have all these failing systems.
Speaker 2: They don't just or mob anymore. They fail everyone, right,
Speaker 2: We're all struggling out here, and and you know country
Speaker 2: feels that more than anyone. Yeah, And so I think
Speaker 2: combining that, you know, having having it made really obvious
Speaker 2: and really clear that you know, this lie of civility
Speaker 2: and to be completely honest, Western and white supremacy sold
Speaker 2: to us for so long now and forced down our throat.
Speaker 2: It's like it's just unbelievable, Like no one can believe
Speaker 2: it anymore. You know, it's just it's it's just a
Speaker 2: farce obviously, you know, not to get to.
Speaker 1: Two activisty, I'm for it. I'm always young.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so you know, combining that with you know,
Speaker 2: MOB over here being like, well yeah, obviously, like you know,
Speaker 2: we've been trying to trying to point this out and
Speaker 2: tell you for years that you know this, this is
Speaker 2: this ain't right. This is not how things have to
Speaker 2: be right. We have all these systems that are tried
Speaker 2: and tested. We know that they work because we're still here, Mob,
Speaker 2: are still here, and so you know, I think I
Speaker 2: think it's a really important time for indigenous people, for
Speaker 2: knowledge holders, for people who who can connect to the
Speaker 2: land and see themselves as land and a part of it.
Speaker 2: You know, I think it's a really really important time,
Speaker 2: and I think we all have our little part to
Speaker 2: play in that. You know, I find myself in in
Speaker 2: this is me area, and you know, I try to
Speaker 2: wave that flag so much and so hard, you know,
Speaker 2: and you know, really push the ways in which that
Speaker 2: particular industry can learn and benefit and listen. And you know,
Speaker 2: I think it's particularly important for US indigenous astronomers at
Speaker 2: the moment, and because there's lots of us now, which
Speaker 2: is incredible for us to really be talking about the
Speaker 2: space industry and talking about the ways in which that's progressing,
Speaker 2: because we've seen it happen before, We've seen you know,
Speaker 2: there's all these all these hints that are pushing us
Speaker 2: down a particular path with the space industry, and I
Speaker 2: think we really need to step up and put our
Speaker 2: hand up and say, hold on, this is not right,
Speaker 2: this is not feeling right, and we need to stop
Speaker 2: this before. We kind of need to reframe ourselves here
Speaker 2: and reframe our positioning within within space, within you know,
Speaker 2: the universe, just like we need to do here on Earth.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think I think everyone has has
Speaker 2: their little piece to play wherever you are. You know. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: fortunately and unfortunately, you know, I was brought up to
Speaker 2: to speak up. And you know, I'm really privileged and
Speaker 2: really lucky to have that, and I need to practice that.
Speaker 2: That's that's kind of you know, my responsibility. It's it's
Speaker 2: to speak up for country and not just my country,
Speaker 2: for for all country.
Speaker 1: Well gosh, and I mean, I imagine that that responsibility
Speaker 1: to country transcends you know, all of what it is
Speaker 1: you you're you're doing, And there's just so much to
Speaker 1: what you said there. I mean, I could, I mean
Speaker 1: to reimagine our societies, to reimagine our world, and to
Speaker 1: realize that we are all inherently connected. And you're right,
Speaker 1: you know, we're seeing the world fall and unravel with
Speaker 1: the harms of neoliberalism, industrial capitalism, colonialism, patriarchy. You know,
Speaker 1: we were seeing it. And this is what I truly believe,
Speaker 1: and I've said it on the show and I'll say
Speaker 1: it again, but this is why Similarly, I truly believe
Speaker 1: that sentiment, like you say, is that you know, indigenous
Speaker 1: and other knowledges are good for everyone and can offer
Speaker 1: us the framework and that knowing and that it has
Speaker 1: been tested. And it's just sort of like you know,
Speaker 1: we've in a couple of things that you said which
Speaker 1: I can't even begin to paraphrase it because it was
Speaker 1: that deadly. But you know, I think the distinction between
Speaker 1: Indigenous knowledge and Western knowledge is this, It's such a
Speaker 1: small difference between I am in nature or I am nature,
Speaker 1: or I am country, I am you know on country
Speaker 1: or you know it's it's it's that it's knowing that
Speaker 1: we are coming from the earth, our mother, our father's
Speaker 1: s Guy is our oldest textbook. It's the it's the
Speaker 1: knowing of such, and it's not there's no benevolence or
Speaker 1: having to prove as such. It's a and it's also
Speaker 1: that knowledge is shared collectively with that responsibility. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: and there was another thing you said before, and you said,
Speaker 1: you know that like middle lows and stuff are sort
Speaker 1: of starting to jerry that about cleverness. And I think
Speaker 1: that's a lot of it too, that there is a
Speaker 1: racial undertone with a lot of this, And like Barker
Speaker 1: even says that, to quote her, she says, you know,
Speaker 1: the power about the power of our blackness. It's almost
Speaker 1: like they don't. They've wanted to keep us on the
Speaker 1: sugarcane farms, they've wanted to keep us in the plantations,
Speaker 1: they've wanted us to do these things. They want us
Speaker 1: to be dumb. So because of the power of our blackness,
Speaker 1: of our knowledge system, that has been so sustainable. And
Speaker 1: I think you're right, we're at this huge reckoning and
Speaker 1: impasse right now. We have been and we continue to
Speaker 1: see you think that you can't see any more horrors,
Speaker 1: and you continue to be, you know, bearing witness. But
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, now is the time where people
Speaker 1: are thinking about the relationships of yeah, colonization and neoliberalism
Speaker 1: and white supremacy and the harms it has, and so
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's you know, not to pathologize
Speaker 1: or even paternalize or in any way, but why it's
Speaker 1: so important we need people like you and other black people, women,
Speaker 1: queer folk, you know, just people in these spaces doing
Speaker 1: this hard work. But I know that it comes at
Speaker 1: such a cost to our lupe and our spirit as
Speaker 1: along the way as well. So yeah, you know, I
Speaker 1: think it's really important that we have First Nations people
Speaker 1: at the helm of these conversations around First Nations justice
Speaker 1: and what we're experiencing right now. But I know it's
Speaker 1: such a hum burden.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I was just going to say, I think we
Speaker 2: play such an important role, and I totally understand it.
Speaker 2: It is a huge burden. It can be so so
Speaker 2: much someday, so overwhelming. But I think the thing that
Speaker 2: we really offer is hope, right, we offer a completely
Speaker 2: different paradigm that you know, sadly, a lot of people
Speaker 2: haven't been able to to imagine. They haven't been able
Speaker 2: to imagine anything outside of capitalism, anything outside of white supremacy.
Speaker 2: And you know, I use the term white supremacy a
Speaker 2: lot because so much of our society is so entrenched
Speaker 2: in it. And I don't believe that we were necessarily
Speaker 2: you know, people who perpetuate white supremacy are doing it
Speaker 2: from a place of you know, malice and hate. I
Speaker 2: think it's just that it's all that they've ever been
Speaker 2: exposed to, it's all they've ever known. And we're so
Speaker 2: lucky that we get to draw on literally the oldest
Speaker 2: culture known to human history, and we get to reimagine
Speaker 2: our prison and our future. And for that, you know,
Speaker 2: we're here to be storytellers. It's literally our duty. It's
Speaker 2: our duty to our old people, to our country, to
Speaker 2: tell those stories of country, to tell those stories of
Speaker 2: our old people. And I think that, you know, that's
Speaker 2: the most important thing we can offer. We can offer
Speaker 2: people a little bit of hope, maybe that you know,
Speaker 2: there are other ways that we can coexist with each other,
Speaker 2: with country, with Kim with animals, with everything. It doesn't
Speaker 2: have to be this way.
Speaker 1: I love it. Ah, I'm just I'm just taking this
Speaker 1: all in because you're right, it is an internalized it's
Speaker 1: internalized capitalism, internalized colonialism, internalized white supremacy. And I guess,
Speaker 1: you know, with that hope to be able to reimagine,
Speaker 1: it's also like it's a reimagining, and I guess from
Speaker 1: my perspective, it's also a returning back to because we've
Speaker 1: all got this proximity to whiteness and we're all trying
Speaker 1: to kind of understand our own colonial mindsets and how
Speaker 1: they manifest in our work and ourselves. And so I
Speaker 1: think a lot of the work in this is also
Speaker 1: reminding or being reminded of the we've always had this
Speaker 1: and we can return back to it's accessible to us,
Speaker 1: and that it's not gone. It might be sleeping, but
Speaker 1: it's there for us when we're in that place to
Speaker 1: return back there. Yeah, and that's a beautiful knowing.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: We've been having a lot of talks in our workforce
Speaker 1: and with a lot of yards that have been having
Speaker 1: down in Victoria around treaty, around just the because we've
Speaker 1: been positioned as a problem to be solved and a
Speaker 1: deficit for so long that sometimes along the ways we
Speaker 1: also underestimate the power of our blackness, and we also
Speaker 1: underestimate our own frameworks. Well, you can see why I
Speaker 1: wanted to sit down with this individual. It's been a blessing, Karli,
Speaker 1: to have you on the show, to learn yeah about
Speaker 1: you and the work you're doing to understand our galaxy,
Speaker 1: which still give me like all the feels thinking about
Speaker 1: but also you know, just hearing about your really gentle
Speaker 1: honesty about you know, how to make this world a
Speaker 1: bit of a better and blacker place. So thank you
Speaker 1: so much for being here today and sharing all of
Speaker 1: your wonderful knowledges with us. We're so grateful.
Speaker 2: It's absolutely my pleasure. Thank you so much for holding
Speaker 2: this space. Hey, Like, it's not often that you know,
Speaker 2: we get to go into these topics to this level
Speaker 2: and be dishonest and you know, yan about the things
Speaker 2: that were most passionate about and do it in a
Speaker 2: really truthful way. So thank you. Thanks for all your
Speaker 2: work and you know you being.
Speaker 1: You, Oh, bless you, Sez. Thank you, that's so beautiful.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that we will put all of your details, Instagram,
Speaker 1: social media handles in our show notes so people can
Speaker 1: follow along them can follow along with your PhD and
Speaker 1: all of the wonderful things you're doing. So thank you
Speaker 1: so much again, my sister for being here on the
Speaker 1: show Yearning Up. Thank you, thank you, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for listening to you mob. If you are vibing
Speaker 1: this season of Yearning Up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts from to show us
Speaker 1: some love, rate and review. Alternatively, you can get in
Speaker 1: contact and give us some feedback by visiting www. Dot
Speaker 1: Caroline Coow dot com dot au