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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: once answers now.

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Speaker 1: On the Happy Families podcast today a provocative topic, should

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Speaker 1: we or should we not be pushing our children to

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Speaker 1: advance with their early talent promotion?

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Speaker 2: Kylie?

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Speaker 1: A study that I want to talk about today. Not

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Speaker 1: a doctor's desk study because this one's is this just semantics?

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Speaker 2: It is a doctor's desk rites be real, not really.

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Speaker 1: This one just stood out to me and it strikes me.

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Speaker 1: It's such a provocative topic because it is counter to

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Speaker 1: everything that we do. It's kind of funny. What I'm

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Speaker 1: about to talk about is something that from a scientific perspective,

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Speaker 1: we have known for some time, and yet in society

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Speaker 1: we continue to ignore it. There's no other way to

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Speaker 1: say it. So I want to talk about accelerating kids

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Speaker 1: in sport, although it could be anything. It could be

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Speaker 1: accelerating kids in whatever you want. Based on a recent

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Speaker 1: research meta analysis that was published by a German sports scientist,

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Speaker 1: Arne Gulich and his collaborator from Austria, Michael Barth, it's

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Speaker 1: called effects of Early Talent Promotion on junior and senior performances,

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Speaker 1: a systematic review and meta analysis, and Kylie, I don't

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Speaker 1: want people to fall asleep because this is at the

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Speaker 1: very you know, when you go to assembly and you

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Speaker 1: see the kids getting the awards, you know how good

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Speaker 1: it feels. This goes to the very heart of that.

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Speaker 2: I remember when Chanell started school.

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Speaker 1: So for those who are knew, she knows our eldest daughter,

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Speaker 1: who's now in her mid twenties, So we're going back

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Speaker 1: twenty years.

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Speaker 2: She was reading by the time she was four. She

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Speaker 2: was a really astute, keen learner.

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Speaker 1: We thought we had a very special not just.

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Speaker 2: Special genius, like she was up there.

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Speaker 1: And we were going to get her in modeling agencies.

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Speaker 1: And she was already advanced in her sporting endeavors with netball.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she was just killing. It was so good.

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Speaker 2: And I remember having conversation after conversation after conversation with

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Speaker 2: teachers year after year the acknowledgment that, yes, she was

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Speaker 2: doing extremely well. It just feels so good to know

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Speaker 2: that you've done something right right for your kids, right right.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, we see them experiencing success, and it's exciting

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Speaker 1: for them and it's exciting for us. So here's what

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Speaker 1: the scientific the compelling scientific evidence shows it's a new

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Speaker 1: MENA analysis. By the way, this is the fourth MENA

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Speaker 1: analysis in the last couple of years that I've come

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Speaker 1: across that highlights pretty much exactly the same lesson. Like

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Speaker 1: I said, the science has been telling us for a

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Speaker 1: long time, being completely ignored in practice by parents and

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Speaker 1: by coaches and by those who run what we might

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Speaker 1: call talent promotion programs. Essentially, there's a conflict between short

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Speaker 1: and long term development. So you've got those kids at

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Speaker 1: streak ahead, as you highlighted. Our eldest daughter was one

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Speaker 1: of those kids who was st just just miles ahead

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Speaker 1: of the pack, and then you've got those kids that

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Speaker 1: are going slow. It's almost like the hair and the tortoise.

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Speaker 1: And this might sound like we're going to be pumping

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Speaker 1: for mediocrity here. That's not what this is about. Excellence

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Speaker 1: is important. So, like I said, this German and these

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Speaker 1: Austrian sports scientists, it sounds like I'm about to sell

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Speaker 1: a joke. Doesn't it walk into a bar. They don't

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Speaker 1: walk into a bar. But they do a big study

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Speaker 1: more than six thousand kids junior athletes fifty one different

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Speaker 1: studies from two thousand and nine through twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: They're looking at all of these they're looking at these

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Speaker 1: kids that get selected for talent promotion program acceleration, and

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Speaker 1: what they find, unsurprisingly is if you get your kids

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Speaker 1: into one of these accelerated programs, the kids get better support,

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Speaker 1: they get better facilities, they get more opportunities.

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Speaker 2: And they do really well.

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Speaker 1: Of course they do. They get more opportunities to practice

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Speaker 1: like they're in there and they're doing it, so their

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Speaker 1: confidence goes up and they feel really good about life.

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Speaker 1: But here's what's fascinating about what this study shows. Well

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Speaker 1: it's not one study, it's fifty one studies and all

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Speaker 1: the various effects sizes in there. They find that the

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Speaker 1: earlier you start your children in a talent promotion program,

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Speaker 1: the earlier you try to accelerate your kids, the worse

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Speaker 1: it goes. And that's for both individuals and for teams worldwide,

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter what country they looked at worldwide, individuals, teams, males, females,

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Speaker 1: the earlier your kids start in their talent promotion program,

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Speaker 1: the worse it goes on average. I mean, there are

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Speaker 1: obviously some early starters who still streak ahead and do

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Speaker 1: really really well. Don't get me wrong, but on average

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Speaker 1: huge attrition. Get this, between twenty five and fifty five

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Speaker 1: percent of kids drop out on an annual basis, and

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Speaker 1: then they refill the funnel with a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: new kids that they think might go really well. Twenty

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Speaker 1: five to fifty five percent drop out. You know why

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Speaker 1: growth spurts puberty? There's age selection effects. That's a really

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Speaker 1: big thing, right. The eldest kids they streak ahead, and

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Speaker 1: so everyone thinks that they're gifted, but it's not. It's

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Speaker 1: just that they're more mature, or they had more opportunities

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Speaker 1: early in life.

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Speaker 2: More than that, though, they haven't had to f for

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Speaker 2: time with mum. Right, you talk about natural selection. These

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Speaker 2: kids have had you completely to themselves.

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Speaker 1: So I wasn't actually talking about birth order, but you

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Speaker 1: are right, which is why I let you finish the point.

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Speaker 1: But rather just the eldest kids in each cohort as well,

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Speaker 1: even if they're second or third or fourth kids in

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Speaker 1: a family. The fact that they're older means they're more mature.

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Speaker 1: They're taller, or they're faster, or they're better at regulating

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Speaker 1: their emotions or following instructions. So elder kids both from

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Speaker 1: an investment on the parents' perspective, and also simply by

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Speaker 1: being bigger and older than all the other kids in

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Speaker 1: their cohort, they do better.

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Speaker 2: I'd really love them to do a study to see

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Speaker 2: these children who do well in these early promotional programs

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Speaker 2: and their happiness levels, because my experience, as I've watched

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Speaker 2: kids who have specialized very early on, they don't have

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Speaker 2: any balance in their lives. Everything is about putting blinders

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Speaker 2: on to the life outside and just focusing and honing

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Speaker 2: in on that one skill set that's going to put

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Speaker 2: them above the rest. And in most cases there's just

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Speaker 2: a deep sadness I see it.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not aware of any studies that exists that

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Speaker 1: have looked specifically at that. It's a fascinating research question.

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Speaker 1: What I can tell you, though, is that there's really

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Speaker 1: interesting research by a guy called Bob valorand and he's

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Speaker 1: looked at this thing called harmonious passion and obsessive passion.

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Speaker 1: He's not looking at adolescents. He's looking at well college

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Speaker 1: ade student and up right, so eighteen and up basically

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Speaker 1: if you're an adult. And what he finds is that

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Speaker 1: when people are doing something in a harmonious way with

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Speaker 1: the rest of their life and with their values. They're

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Speaker 1: passionate about something and it works in well for them,

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Speaker 1: and they're doing it for the right reasons. They're doing

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Speaker 1: it because it's integrated into who they are. Those are

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Speaker 1: the people who get tremendous well being gains. Tremendous well

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Speaker 1: being gains from doing that activity.

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Speaker 2: And you see that in the kids who are driven

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Speaker 2: by a passion as opposed to a need to excel

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Speaker 2: in an area.

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Speaker 1: Right, and that needs probably a good word because the

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Speaker 1: alternative is what he calls obsessive passion. And obsessive passion

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Speaker 1: is I'm doing it because I have to. I'm doing

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Speaker 1: it because.

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Speaker 2: I have to.

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Speaker 1: I want to prove, I want to maintain that. How

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Speaker 1: I get this status.

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Speaker 2: This is how I get status, or this is how

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Speaker 2: I get noticed by mum and dad, this is where

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Speaker 2: I get my attention. Yeah, you can really see it.

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Speaker 1: That reminds me of another study. I know again today

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Speaker 1: it's not a doctor's desk, but this stuff really it

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Speaker 1: matters so much for the way we're driving our kids

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Speaker 1: and trying to help them to achieve excellence. Right, this

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Speaker 1: conversation about kids fulfilling their potential. There was a study

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Speaker 1: done by a maide of mine, Chris Nemick, at the

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Speaker 1: University of Rochester. He looked at people who were going

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Speaker 1: through university and then what happened following university, and what

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Speaker 1: he looked at specifically was the goals that they were

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Speaker 1: setting for the rest of their lives while they were

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Speaker 1: at university. Did they have harmonious intrinsic goals or have

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Speaker 1: extrinsic goals I want to look like this, I want

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Speaker 1: to attain that.

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Speaker 2: I want to earn this much more precisely, and.

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Speaker 1: What he found was that the well being levels of

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Speaker 1: the people who had these intrinsic goals like I'm here

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Speaker 1: to learn, I'm here to grow, I'm here to make

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Speaker 1: a contribution, I'm here to develop relationships. I love building competence.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing this because I love it, they had much

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Speaker 1: greater levels of well being, significantly high levels of well

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Speaker 1: being than those young people who said I want the car,

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Speaker 1: I want the house, I want the salary, I want

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Speaker 1: the career, I want to be at one of the

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Speaker 1: big financial firms or whatever it was. It's not that

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Speaker 1: they were unhappy, it's just that they didn't experience the

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Speaker 1: same well being benefits all of that is to say,

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Speaker 1: in response to your question, if we push our kids

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Speaker 1: into these early talent promotion programs at a young age,

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Speaker 1: quite often they're doing it well. They're going to be

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Speaker 1: excited about it when they're young because they're doing really well.

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Speaker 1: We've even watched this with one of our nephews who

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Speaker 1: is about to like he's on the casp of becoming

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Speaker 1: a first grade rugby league player. He was an absolute

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Speaker 1: superstar in rugby league all the right through his childhood

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Speaker 1: and adolescent years. But the further you go, the harder

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Speaker 1: it gets. And by the time it was in his

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Speaker 1: mid to late teens and everyone else had caught up.

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Speaker 1: He's still an exemplary, exceptional player, but he's had to

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Speaker 1: work far, far, far harder at it as a young

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Speaker 1: adult than he did as a kid. And one of

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Speaker 1: the things that I think is done been the best

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Speaker 1: for him is it's not his only outlet. He's done

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Speaker 1: a university degree and he's got a really well balanced

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Speaker 1: life outside of the game. He's playing the game because

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Speaker 1: he loves it, not because he feels like he has

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Speaker 1: to approve something to people. So I guess that's kind

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Speaker 1: of the real take home message In the words of

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Speaker 1: these authors, they were looking at the opportunity cost, the

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Speaker 1: time involve, the injuries that kids have, the burnout that comes.

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Speaker 1: They made a couple of points, and I want to

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Speaker 1: read these exact words because I thought they were so powerful.

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Speaker 1: They said, consistent across different populations, early talent promotion program

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Speaker 1: involvement is positively correlated with short term junior performance, but

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Speaker 1: is negatively correlated with long term senior performance.

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Speaker 2: When I think back to all of the conversations I

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Speaker 2: had with Chanelle's teachers in those first few years, the

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Speaker 2: acknowledgment was she was leaps and bounds ahead of the

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Speaker 2: average kid, but across the board their experience was sooner

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Speaker 2: or later the other kids were going to catch up.

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Speaker 2: She wasn't a superstar. She had just been able to

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Speaker 2: experience one on one time with me, which gave her

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Speaker 2: an advantage. It wasn't actually academic advantage as much as

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Speaker 2: it was relationship advantage.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, streaking ahead and staying there is not the norm.

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Speaker 1: It just isn't. If you've got a child who really

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Speaker 1: does who really is That's why we start to talk

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Speaker 1: about the whole gift and stuff, And that's not the

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Speaker 1: purpose of this podcast. Most of all, though, here's what

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Speaker 1: I would say to wrap up. Help you kids. If

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Speaker 1: they want, if they really like something, give them practice lots.

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Speaker 1: Make sure they've got good support.

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Speaker 2: I don't even think that if your kid is genuinely

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Speaker 2: passionate about something, need to tell them to sit down

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Speaker 2: at the piano and practice for thirty minutes every day.

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Speaker 2: They do it because they love it. And I think

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Speaker 2: that so many relationships in the home are challenged because

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Speaker 2: mum or dad decides that you're really good at this,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to make you do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I had a conversation with someone at a school

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Speaker 1: maybe a few months ago who had an eight year

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Speaker 1: old who was performing in their chosen activity at a

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Speaker 1: national level. Eight years old, Wow, national level. But one

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Speaker 1: of the parents was literally saying, if you don't do X,

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Speaker 1: we're going to pull you out of that activity. So

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Speaker 1: really really unhelpful. Yeah, really unfair because we've got a

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Speaker 1: kid who's just excelling. Let that child do that stuff.

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Speaker 1: What I was going to say, more than anything, though,

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Speaker 1: is get the kids doing lots of things. The standard

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Speaker 1: path to excellence in any field in the early days

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Speaker 1: is streaking ahead. But once you get into your twenties

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Speaker 1: and your thirties and your forties. If we move the

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Speaker 1: sport analogy into other aspects of life, it seems that

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Speaker 1: having a wide range and a wonderful breadth of experience

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Speaker 1: is much more likely to point you to learning the

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Speaker 1: skills that are necessary to flourish and thrive later in life.

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Speaker 2: Over the years, we've had lots of conversations with our

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Speaker 2: kids about the fact that that there is no wasted

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Speaker 2: knowledge that we acquire. We can have so many varied

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Speaker 2: experiences and think that because we no longer want to

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Speaker 2: go down that particular specialty or that road, that we've

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Speaker 2: wasted all of this time and energy. And yet as

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Speaker 2: we go throughout life, we experience line uponline precept upon precept,

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Speaker 2: adding to the things that we've learned previously, and they

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Speaker 2: actually round us out to be better individuals.

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Speaker 1: Here there little and it builds us. We will link

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Speaker 1: to that studying the show notes for people who are

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Speaker 1: interested in that. The podcast has been produced by Justin

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Speaker 1: Rolan from Bridge Media. I feel really terrible saying for

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Speaker 1: more information, visit happy families dot com.

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Speaker 2: Do I you, But That's what I'm

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Speaker 1: Going to say