WEBVTT - How to master difficult conversations at work, with Tim Duggan 0:00:00.180 --> 0:00:04.220 Today's episode is brought to you by Amazon Business. Unlock 0:00:04.260 --> 0:00:09.090 smart business buying. Learn more at amazon.com.au forward slash how 0:00:09.250 --> 0:00:09.690 I work. 0:00:09.910 --> 0:00:12.990 When we're in conflict, we use words that are very accusatory. 0:00:13.670 --> 0:00:16.349 So we say, why did you do that? There's a 0:00:16.710 --> 0:00:19.410 really powerful word that if you replace it and use 0:00:19.450 --> 0:00:21.720 this as many times as possible, you will change the 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:23.830 tamper of the conversation. And the word is. 0:00:24.780 --> 0:00:28.340 That was Tim Duggan. And we'll get to that magic 0:00:28.420 --> 0:00:32.479 word soon. But first, I'd like to confirm that nobody 0:00:32.860 --> 0:00:36.320 in the history of arguments has ever calmed down because 0:00:36.420 --> 0:00:38.950 someone asked, why did you do that? 0:00:39.790 --> 0:00:42.150 Especially in that tone. Here's the thing. 0:00:43.010 --> 0:00:46.930 About 80% of us avoid conflict whenever we get the chance, 0:00:47.390 --> 0:00:51.470 which means most of us get very little practice at it. 0:00:52.409 --> 0:00:55.860 Tim was one of those people. He spent 15 years 0:00:56.100 --> 0:01:01.740 running a media company, refereeing other people's conflicts with zero training, 0:01:02.220 --> 0:01:06.080 which is a strange job for a self-confessed conflict avoider. 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:10.640 So for his new book, Clear Intention, he flew to 0:01:10.700 --> 0:01:14.920 Perth more than a dozen times to become an accredited mediator. 0:01:15.569 --> 0:01:18.790 And along the way, he picked the brains of negotiation 0:01:18.890 --> 0:01:23.090 experts at Oxford, had dinner with Esther Perel and asked 0:01:23.110 --> 0:01:28.010 Amanda Knox about the tattoos on her arm. In this conversation, 0:01:28.170 --> 0:01:31.570 Tim shares a five step framework that you can run 0:01:31.610 --> 0:01:35.300 through in your head mid argument, a listening trick that 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.220 you can use to defuse any conflict. and a bunch 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.500 of other super practical ways to help you get more 0:01:41.580 --> 0:01:45.709 comfortable with conflict, which let's face it, most of us 0:01:45.790 --> 0:01:50.230 find pretty uncomfortable. Oh, and that word Tim was going 0:01:50.250 --> 0:01:53.950 to say, it is waiting for you in this episode. 0:01:59.920 --> 0:02:03.600 Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:05.840 and strategies for optimizing your day. 0:02:06.570 --> 0:02:08.490 I'm your host, Dr. Amantha Imber. 0:02:13.190 --> 0:02:14.959 One of the things that you did when you were 0:02:15.030 --> 0:02:18.540 researching your new book, Clear Intention, is you became an 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.340 accredited mediator, correct? 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:21.800 Yes. 0:02:22.100 --> 0:02:25.940 That is a huge commitment. I want to know, what 0:02:25.980 --> 0:02:30.620 were the most interesting slash surprising things that you learned 0:02:30.690 --> 0:02:31.470 in that process? 0:02:31.970 --> 0:02:34.810 I think it's one of the most useful life skills 0:02:35.610 --> 0:02:39.840 I ever learned. It was originally out of curiosity and 0:02:39.860 --> 0:02:41.700 it was out of a desire for me to go 0:02:41.940 --> 0:02:45.859 deeper into this topic and truly understand it. I looked 0:02:45.900 --> 0:02:49.690 around Australia and I found what I thought looked like 0:02:49.750 --> 0:02:52.730 the best course to do it. It was the University 0:02:52.750 --> 0:02:57.490 of West Australia and I'm based in Sydney. Therefore, I 0:02:57.630 --> 0:02:58.830 flew back. 0:02:58.650 --> 0:03:04.230 And forward from 12 times, 14 times or something like 0:03:04.270 --> 0:03:06.700 that in order to go to this course and to 0:03:06.750 --> 0:03:09.160 do the training and then to do the, there was 0:03:09.180 --> 0:03:10.980 a lot of simulations that you do. 0:03:11.820 --> 0:03:14.600 And it was fascinating. I did it for two reasons. 0:03:15.220 --> 0:03:17.620 One is because I really wanted to understand mediation. And 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:19.980 two is because I actually do some of my best 0:03:20.100 --> 0:03:24.530 writing and thinking on planes. So I actually forced myself 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:28.340 because it's five hours one way. So I therefore, it 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:31.339 actually was as I was thinking and writing about this 0:03:31.380 --> 0:03:34.240 book and it gave me something like 50 hours of 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.120 nonstop writing to be able to write. So a lot 0:03:37.150 --> 0:03:38.809 of this book was written on the plane going back 0:03:38.830 --> 0:03:40.230 and forth between Sydney and Melbourne. 0:03:41.340 --> 0:03:42.860 Oh my God, between Sydney and Perth. 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:43.560 Sydney and Perth, sorry. 0:03:43.580 --> 0:03:44.840 Sydney and Perth, yeah. Sydney and Perth, yes. 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:47.839 Wow, that's nuts. I've also done a lot of writing 0:03:48.020 --> 0:03:49.580 on that flight from Melbourne to Perth. 0:03:49.740 --> 0:03:50.060 Really? 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:51.650 It's so good. 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:52.570 It's five hours. 0:03:52.890 --> 0:03:57.430 There's something about planes for me that just is unfiltered 0:03:57.450 --> 0:04:00.430 thinking time. And I think I can do twice as 0:04:00.490 --> 0:04:04.560 much work in plane hours than I do on earth hours. 0:04:05.220 --> 0:04:07.140 It is really quite extraordinary. I do so much of 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.220 my writing on planes. So, why not? It's an excellent, 0:04:10.300 --> 0:04:14.060 excellent course. And I interviewed for the book, the professor 0:04:14.420 --> 0:04:17.820 and the doctor that taught the course in mediation. And 0:04:17.860 --> 0:04:19.540 it was really fascinating because there was a lot of 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:21.880 simulations that you do. So, you learn a lot of 0:04:21.900 --> 0:04:25.020 the theory and the practice. And then you do hours 0:04:25.060 --> 0:04:29.540 and hours of really hands-on simulations with everyone else who's 0:04:29.580 --> 0:04:31.900 doing the course. And it's fascinating because you get to 0:04:31.940 --> 0:04:34.830 be on all sides of mediation. So you get to 0:04:34.870 --> 0:04:37.970 be people in conflict, you get to be the people 0:04:38.010 --> 0:04:41.969 mediating the conflict. And it taught me, I think the 0:04:42.010 --> 0:04:46.890 biggest lesson I learned from mediation was the role of listening, 0:04:47.570 --> 0:04:49.790 which is a big part of conflict and how to 0:04:49.810 --> 0:04:52.210 get better at it. And the role of actually active 0:04:52.250 --> 0:04:56.779 listening and the role of really just trying to stop 0:04:57.060 --> 0:04:59.799 and listen to what somebody has to say and allow 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.060 other people to come to their own conclusions rather than 0:05:03.100 --> 0:05:04.700 going there and trying to solve everyone's problems. 0:05:04.990 --> 0:05:09.469 I always thought it'd be so stressful being a mediator. 0:05:09.529 --> 0:05:14.010 I get really stressed being around people in conflict. What 0:05:14.270 --> 0:05:18.540 strategies did you get to manage that comfortable feeling that 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.940 I think most people feel when they're in amongst conflict? 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.099 The reason why I was drawn to this topic is 0:05:24.140 --> 0:05:27.780 because I'm also uncomfortable around conflict. It is something that 0:05:27.940 --> 0:05:31.070 I think it is so hard and so messy and 0:05:31.110 --> 0:05:33.730 so emotional. And it normally involves people that you love 0:05:33.790 --> 0:05:36.370 dearly or people that you work with or sometimes people 0:05:36.390 --> 0:05:40.310 that you really dislike. But there's a lot of emotions involved. 0:05:40.870 --> 0:05:43.919 And the subtitle of my book is How to Get 0:05:43.980 --> 0:05:47.900 Better at Conflict. And the sad, hard truth is the 0:05:48.180 --> 0:05:51.940 only way to get better at it is by doing it. So, 0:05:51.980 --> 0:05:55.120 the only way if you feel uncomfortable in conflict, if 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.560 you feel that mediation just gives you the ick and 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.179 you really want to run away from it. The only 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:04.070 solution to get better at it is by actually doing it. 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.840 So by becoming a nationally accredited mediator, for me, it 0:06:07.900 --> 0:06:11.450 was how do I dive headfirst into this? And the 0:06:11.470 --> 0:06:13.969 more I did it, the more I did it outside 0:06:14.010 --> 0:06:17.820 the course, the more I understood it, the better I 0:06:17.980 --> 0:06:21.160 felt about it because I could view things almost objectively, 0:06:21.900 --> 0:06:25.340 almost try to remove some of the emotions because all 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.980 of a sudden I understood a bit more about the topic. 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:32.350 I knew that's what's happening in that process. And I 0:06:32.390 --> 0:06:34.550 even think about this in my personal life because this 0:06:34.630 --> 0:06:36.930 book is ostensibly about how to get better at conflict 0:06:37.070 --> 0:06:38.950 at work because I spend a lot of my time 0:06:38.990 --> 0:06:41.650 thinking about work. But the skills then of how to 0:06:41.730 --> 0:06:44.800 actually do that in my personal life. And there's moments 0:06:44.820 --> 0:06:48.130 then when I've had big arguments with my husband. And 0:06:48.150 --> 0:06:52.190 I can feel all of these emotions overtaking me. And 0:06:52.470 --> 0:06:56.349 researchers call it emotional hijacking or amygdala hijacking. And in 0:06:56.370 --> 0:06:59.590 the past, that would happen to me. And now when 0:06:59.610 --> 0:07:02.270 it happens, I'm quite objective about it. I almost view 0:07:02.310 --> 0:07:05.120 it scientifically. I'm like, oh, wow, that's fascinating. 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:08.260 Oh, God. So why do I feel so? 0:07:08.339 --> 0:07:09.420 Why can't I speak right now? 0:07:09.460 --> 0:07:10.060 What's going on? 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.980 And it doesn't stop the emotions. but it just allows 0:07:13.020 --> 0:07:14.560 you to understand it a little bit better. 0:07:14.700 --> 0:07:18.020 Are there any specific tactics that you find yourself now 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:22.560 going to, like, say, when you're in conflict with, let's say, 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:24.120 with your husband? 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:28.260 Because I know that there's this great framework in the book, 0:07:28.300 --> 0:07:30.670 which we'll get into, but just sort of one or 0:07:30.710 --> 0:07:34.990 two tactical things that have become go-to strategies for you. 0:07:35.150 --> 0:07:39.430 Yeah, and there's loads. And the first one is box-breathing. 0:07:40.010 --> 0:07:43.210 which I think is something that is just to calm 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:45.320 your nervous system down. So box breathing is where you 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:47.420 breathe in for a certain period of time, hold it 0:07:47.460 --> 0:07:49.040 for a certain period of time, breathe out for a 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:50.920 certain period of time, hold it for a certain period 0:07:50.940 --> 0:07:53.500 of time. I do it for five seconds each time 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:55.240 and I think of it like a box when it 0:07:55.260 --> 0:07:57.660 goes around. And I love that. I do that all 0:07:57.680 --> 0:07:59.980 the time. No one needs to know I'm doing that 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:01.940 when I'm box breathing. So when I'm arguing with my 0:08:01.990 --> 0:08:04.450 husband and my emotions are going crazy, I can just 0:08:06.980 --> 0:08:08.990 box breathe and he has no idea what I'm doing 0:08:09.010 --> 0:08:10.190 because no one can see. 0:08:10.830 --> 0:08:11.640 So I do that a lot. 0:08:12.550 --> 0:08:14.940 The second part was that I actually developed this really 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:17.320 simple framework, which we'll talk about later on, called CLEAR, 0:08:17.540 --> 0:08:20.700 which stands for Clarify, Listen, Explore, Align and Reset. I 0:08:20.740 --> 0:08:21.560 said that really quickly. 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:22.680 We'll get to that later. 0:08:23.180 --> 0:08:26.550 But I do go through that checklist in my head 0:08:27.190 --> 0:08:29.110 and I try to figure out where I'm up to. 0:08:29.590 --> 0:08:33.770 And that to me is quite revolutionary because up until then, 0:08:33.910 --> 0:08:37.830 I didn't have any process. It was just how can 0:08:37.870 --> 0:08:39.980 I hold on and get to the next moment without 0:08:40.740 --> 0:08:45.089 completely losing it? or without losing my relationship or anything 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:47.469 like that. So now I've got this little process in 0:08:47.510 --> 0:08:50.530 my head that I go through. Of those steps, which 0:08:50.550 --> 0:08:53.569 we'll get into later, the most important one is listen, 0:08:54.150 --> 0:08:57.470 like properly listening. And so now when I'm in conflict, 0:08:57.730 --> 0:09:01.720 I do something quite counterintuitive, which is that I try 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:04.240 not to interject, that I try to actually listen to 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:06.179 what the other person is trying to say. It allows 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:09.199 me to calm down a little bit and it allows 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:13.429 the other person to feel heard which is literally almost 0:09:13.490 --> 0:09:15.570 the idea of conflict sometimes. It's just how you get 0:09:15.590 --> 0:09:16.010 to that point. 0:09:16.330 --> 0:09:20.250 Let's go through the CLEAR steps, if you like, now. 0:09:20.630 --> 0:09:23.810 So CLEAR is an acronym. Let's go through it. What 0:09:23.830 --> 0:09:25.469 do we do? What's the process? 0:09:25.550 --> 0:09:27.770 So let's start at the very first one, which is 0:09:27.830 --> 0:09:31.930 clarify what matters. So the first C in CLEAR is 0:09:31.970 --> 0:09:36.750 clarify what matters. And that is about preparing for conflict. 0:09:37.490 --> 0:09:39.600 Most of us think that conflict just happens to us. 0:09:40.450 --> 0:09:43.410 Almost all the times we go into conflict, we can 0:09:43.470 --> 0:09:46.030 predict it in advance. So we know if we're about 0:09:46.070 --> 0:09:47.910 to go in and have a hard conversation with somebody. 0:09:48.410 --> 0:09:51.390 We know if somebody we're dealing with is more prone 0:09:51.429 --> 0:09:55.150 to conflict than not. We know if something's really emotional 0:09:55.210 --> 0:09:57.990 important to us that it's going to be potentially create conflict. 0:09:58.410 --> 0:10:02.080 So all these moments about clarify. what actually matters before 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.479 you go into it. That involves understanding what type of 0:10:05.500 --> 0:10:08.340 person you are when you go into conflict, what type 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:11.250 of person the other person is. And it evolves this 0:10:11.410 --> 0:10:14.320 really simple framework, which I developed for the book called 0:10:14.340 --> 0:10:17.760 the four terrains of conflict, which is basically understanding two 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.320 of the biggest variables that affect conflict, which is how 0:10:20.340 --> 0:10:22.520 much trust you have with somebody and how aligned their 0:10:22.540 --> 0:10:24.120 values are on that particular issue. 0:10:24.300 --> 0:10:25.530 So that is the C. 0:10:25.820 --> 0:10:27.740 That's the C, clarify what matters. 0:10:28.140 --> 0:10:31.500 L is for listen. Now you talked about listening. How 0:10:31.540 --> 0:10:33.260 do I know if I'm listening properly? 0:10:33.540 --> 0:10:33.839 Yeah. 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.540 So I call it listen generously. And that is to 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:41.719 really separate what we think we do, which is, I 0:10:42.020 --> 0:10:44.880 listen every day. I know how to listen. Don't tell 0:10:44.940 --> 0:10:48.540 me what to do. Whereas listen generously is actually this 0:10:48.740 --> 0:10:51.780 real step up. And listen generously is listening out for 0:10:51.900 --> 0:10:55.160 what's really important when someone is speaking. And there's four 0:10:55.210 --> 0:10:58.350 layers to this. The first one is what someone is saying, 0:10:58.710 --> 0:11:00.690 which is their positions. So that's kind of like on 0:11:00.710 --> 0:11:04.060 the surface. Underneath that is what they're not saying. which 0:11:04.100 --> 0:11:05.800 is their emotions, which is kind of all the things 0:11:05.850 --> 0:11:09.630 they're hiding. Underneath that is what they care about, which 0:11:09.670 --> 0:11:12.530 is their interests. And underneath that is what they value, 0:11:12.790 --> 0:11:16.870 which is their values. So all those things are really important, 0:11:16.890 --> 0:11:20.300 those four layers of generous listening. I was lucky when 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:22.380 I did research for this book to be able to 0:11:22.780 --> 0:11:25.660 have access to so many amazing minds around the world. 0:11:25.940 --> 0:11:28.459 So people, I went to Oxford University and spoke to 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:30.920 people that teach negotiation there. And I was able to 0:11:30.950 --> 0:11:34.280 have dinner with Esther Perel, the psychotherapist. And one of 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.680 the things that I think is amazing, have you ever 0:11:36.710 --> 0:11:37.930 seen her live? 0:11:38.250 --> 0:11:38.710 Yes. 0:11:38.890 --> 0:11:40.230 And I was with you, Tim. 0:11:40.290 --> 0:11:40.730 Yes. 0:11:41.250 --> 0:11:43.630 I was leading into that question. We went and saw 0:11:43.690 --> 0:11:45.410 Esther together in Melbourne. 0:11:45.429 --> 0:11:45.849 Yeah. 0:11:45.970 --> 0:11:47.790 And she was amazing. And one thing that she does 0:11:47.830 --> 0:11:50.150 at the end of her shows is she asks, does 0:11:50.190 --> 0:11:54.270 anyone have questions? And she does this, I almost call 0:11:54.290 --> 0:11:58.050 it like a magic trick where she takes questions because 0:11:58.550 --> 0:12:01.300 when Esther Perel says, does anyone have any questions? If 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:03.400 there's 5,000 people in the room, there's 5,000 hands that 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:05.660 go up because everyone wants to ask her a question. 0:12:06.110 --> 0:12:09.090 And so she takes maybe five or six questions. She 0:12:09.130 --> 0:12:13.630 writes things down and then she answers all of the 0:12:13.670 --> 0:12:16.770 questions at once by pulling together the common threads. It's 0:12:16.790 --> 0:12:21.050 quite an amazing show of active listening. And I asked her, 0:12:21.090 --> 0:12:22.670 I said, how do you do that? She looked me 0:12:22.710 --> 0:12:25.530 straight in the eyes and she said, you have to surrender. 0:12:26.540 --> 0:12:29.600 This idea of being when you listen to somebody, The 0:12:29.670 --> 0:12:32.620 last thing we're doing in our mind is surrendering. We 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:36.380 are overthinking. We are trying to come up with an 0:12:36.420 --> 0:12:40.440 answer ourselves. We are trying to empathize by relating the 0:12:40.460 --> 0:12:42.820 story back to ourselves. All these things that we do. 0:12:43.700 --> 0:12:49.400 And this idea then of listening is about surrendering and 0:12:49.450 --> 0:12:56.420 listening is about actually not overthinking. Throughout the book, there's 0:12:56.460 --> 0:13:00.679 a bunch of like really practical exercises and two really, 0:13:00.860 --> 0:13:03.339 really practical things that I now do when I listen 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:05.100 is mirroring and looping. 0:13:05.420 --> 0:13:06.240 Tell me about those. 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:08.870 Yes, I know you love practical ideas. I know everyone 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:11.030 who listens to this is like, great, Tim, I know 0:13:11.050 --> 0:13:13.390 I need to listen. How the hell do I do it? 0:13:13.990 --> 0:13:16.910 So mirroring is the very first step of when you 0:13:17.070 --> 0:13:19.830 mirror somebody. And that's when you're having a conversation with 0:13:19.870 --> 0:13:23.490 them mirroring basically means you take the last few words 0:13:23.510 --> 0:13:25.689 that they said in a sentence and just repeat it 0:13:25.710 --> 0:13:28.190 back to them. So, you mirror it back to them. 0:13:29.130 --> 0:13:31.960 It sounds really simple. It sounds like you are not listening. 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:34.020 And sometimes when I teach people this, they put their 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:36.839 hand up and they say, am I just like not 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.260 listening because I'm just parroting back what they say? But 0:13:39.300 --> 0:13:41.500 the aim of it is it's meant to stop you 0:13:41.910 --> 0:13:45.010 from interjecting and stop you from overthinking and just give 0:13:45.450 --> 0:13:46.969 you a chance to be able to engage in a 0:13:46.970 --> 0:13:49.189 conversation with somebody or listen to what they have to 0:13:49.230 --> 0:13:52.900 say without having to think the whole time. And that 0:13:52.940 --> 0:13:55.819 actually allows you, quite ironically, the actual space to think. 0:13:55.900 --> 0:13:59.440 And I must say, it sounds very artificial and feels 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:03.240 kind of artificial to do as a listener. But from 0:14:03.300 --> 0:14:06.800 the person that has just spoken, it actually genuinely feels 0:14:06.900 --> 0:14:08.920 like the person has really heard you. 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:10.000 Very much so. 0:14:10.179 --> 0:14:13.420 And it's amazing that when you actually try this, no 0:14:13.500 --> 0:14:15.360 one calls you out on it. It's a really simple 0:14:15.420 --> 0:14:19.240 way of just making that person feel heard. That's one technique. 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:22.780 And the next technique is then called looping. And looping 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:26.400 is that step further. So it takes this and it's 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.050 if you think of to mirror somebody is like the 0:14:29.110 --> 0:14:32.150 very first step. This is another step above. And looping 0:14:32.370 --> 0:14:35.110 is you listen to somebody and then when they finish 0:14:35.150 --> 0:14:38.790 a sentence or a paragraph, you paraphrase it back to them. 0:14:39.530 --> 0:14:42.500 And then the most important aspect is you ask, is 0:14:42.540 --> 0:14:45.920 that what you mean? Did I get that right? So 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:50.190 you check with them. That gives them an opportunity to say, ah, yeah, almost. 0:14:50.290 --> 0:14:52.490 It's not quite that. What it actually means is this. 0:14:53.070 --> 0:14:53.410 Ah, okay. 0:14:53.430 --> 0:14:57.470 So, what you're saying is this. Yeah, except that also 0:14:57.490 --> 0:14:59.670 this thing's important. Okay. So, you're saying that this thing 0:14:59.710 --> 0:15:02.360 here is really important. That's very important. Yeah, that's it. 0:15:03.030 --> 0:15:04.360 And you want someone to get to the point where 0:15:04.380 --> 0:15:05.880 they say, yep, that's it. 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:06.500 Exactly. 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:09.960 That is listening to somebody. And that is a real 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:13.310 amazing thing. Very simple technique that anyone can do in 0:15:13.330 --> 0:15:14.290 order to become a better listener. 0:15:14.470 --> 0:15:14.730 Okay. 0:15:14.770 --> 0:15:16.830 So where do we go next in the clear process? 0:15:17.330 --> 0:15:17.550 Yes. 0:15:17.630 --> 0:15:20.910 So we have clarified what matters. Then we have listened generously. 0:15:21.450 --> 0:15:24.510 The next step is to explore what's underneath. So this 0:15:24.550 --> 0:15:26.310 is the part where most of us jump into when 0:15:26.330 --> 0:15:28.980 we get into conflict with somebody. And explore what's underneath 0:15:29.390 --> 0:15:35.000 means really understanding the conflict. One way you can do 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:36.800 that is something I learned a lot when I did 0:15:36.860 --> 0:15:41.170 mediation is about separating positions from interests. So, position is 0:15:41.210 --> 0:15:45.000 what someone says and the interest is their hopes, fears 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.460 or concerns behind why they're saying that. So, if you 0:15:48.500 --> 0:15:50.740 can do that, and this is a really simple exercise 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:52.520 that anyone can do if you're in conflict with somebody, 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.430 it's thinking, okay, well, I say this here, this person 0:15:55.470 --> 0:15:59.010 says this here, why are they saying that? What's their hopes, fears, 0:15:59.050 --> 0:16:02.350 concerns or whys behind that? And that is the interests. 0:16:02.810 --> 0:16:05.120 And as soon as you uncover what those interests are, 0:16:05.550 --> 0:16:08.990 you can then have a really interesting discussion about them 0:16:09.020 --> 0:16:10.770 because you're talking about what really matters. 0:16:11.270 --> 0:16:12.470 What's an example of that? 0:16:12.950 --> 0:16:16.710 So an example, there's a really great example that is 0:16:16.750 --> 0:16:19.250 a kind of famous example they use to illustrate the 0:16:19.290 --> 0:16:21.770 difference between positions and interests. And I'll give you it here. 0:16:22.390 --> 0:16:25.740 So there's two people sitting in a library and they're 0:16:25.820 --> 0:16:28.720 both studying and there's a window open next to them. 0:16:29.500 --> 0:16:31.700 And one person wants the window shut and the other 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.020 person wants the window open. So they both got to 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:36.650 the librarian. and they say, I want it shut. Other 0:16:36.670 --> 0:16:40.080 person says, I want it closed. Librarian is quite smart 0:16:40.500 --> 0:16:43.340 and asks them why they want it open or shut. 0:16:43.860 --> 0:16:46.140 And one person says, well, I want it shut because 0:16:46.500 --> 0:16:49.010 I am getting a draft in and the draft is 0:16:49.430 --> 0:16:51.710 really annoying. And the other person says, well, I want 0:16:51.730 --> 0:16:54.250 to open because I'm hot and I need some air 0:16:54.270 --> 0:16:57.550 to come in. So librarian goes over to them, closes 0:16:57.580 --> 0:16:59.780 the window, then walks across the other side of the 0:16:59.820 --> 0:17:03.040 library and opens the window. All of a sudden, the 0:17:03.060 --> 0:17:04.959 person who's hot is cooled down and the person who 0:17:04.980 --> 0:17:07.439 doesn't like the draft doesn't have a draft directly on them. 0:17:08.310 --> 0:17:11.169 So it's a really simple example of the position is 0:17:11.270 --> 0:17:13.649 I want it shut, I want it open, but the 0:17:13.830 --> 0:17:16.669 interest behind it, once you understand why someone wants to 0:17:16.730 --> 0:17:19.270 do it, you can then actually solve the problem. 0:17:19.770 --> 0:17:21.940 So is interest kind of like motivation? 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:26.530 Yeah, it's hopes, fears, concerns and why's. So what's someone's hopes, 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.110 what's their fears about it, what's their concern, or what's 0:17:29.130 --> 0:17:31.730 the why behind it? And as soon as you can 0:17:31.850 --> 0:17:34.790 uncover what that actually is, it's quite revolutionary when it 0:17:34.830 --> 0:17:39.050 comes to anything, negotiation, conflict, any disagreement that you have. 0:17:39.790 --> 0:17:42.649 It's something that I do myself a lot. So I 0:17:42.710 --> 0:17:46.230 now actually interrogate myself when I say something. And it 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:49.139 can be as simple as a boss saying to their 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.060 staff member, I want that report on my desk by 0:17:52.140 --> 0:17:55.460 Friday at five o'clock. That is a position. The interest 0:17:55.500 --> 0:17:58.960 behind it is why. What is their hope, their fear, 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.440 their concern, or their why behind it? And if you 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.710 interrogate that, you might find out that the boss has 0:18:05.770 --> 0:18:09.149 to deliver a report to their boss on Monday and 0:18:09.190 --> 0:18:11.629 they therefore don't want to seem dumb and they want 0:18:11.650 --> 0:18:13.409 to get a promotion and they don't want to get 0:18:13.490 --> 0:18:15.850 fired because they don't understand what's going on with their subordinates. 0:18:16.410 --> 0:18:19.210 So as soon as you understand if that's the reason why, 0:18:19.930 --> 0:18:23.000 That changes how you approach things and you realize that 0:18:23.340 --> 0:18:25.899 it's not necessarily about a deadline or a time or 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.770 what someone says. It's why they're saying it. 0:18:28.980 --> 0:18:33.020 Coming up next, Tim shares the four symbols Amanda Knox 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:36.760 has tattooed on her arm. the research on how many 0:18:36.900 --> 0:18:40.940 good moments a relationship needs for every bad one, and 0:18:41.060 --> 0:18:44.240 the advice he gave me before I had to let 0:18:44.300 --> 0:18:48.870 people go in 2024. Plus, the one word he wants 0:18:48.910 --> 0:18:52.850 you to use tonight. Oh, and one other thing. We 0:18:52.910 --> 0:18:56.929 have made a Spotify playlist of our favorite How I 0:18:56.970 --> 0:19:01.940 Work episodes on difficult conversations and giving hard feedback. So, 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.520 if you want more of this kind of stuff, there 0:19:04.580 --> 0:19:10.260 is a link to that in the show notes. If 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.040 you're looking for more tips to improve the way you 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:16.260 work and live, I write a short weekly newsletter that 0:19:16.300 --> 0:19:19.240 contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:25.120 You can sign up for that at amantha.com. That's amantha.com. 0:19:29.090 --> 0:19:32.190 I imagine that sometimes interests can be quite hard to 0:19:32.430 --> 0:19:37.510 uncover because they might be embarrassing or maybe seem unreasonable 0:19:37.630 --> 0:19:42.450 or they're just private. How do we uncover someone's interests 0:19:42.550 --> 0:19:43.669 when that's the case? 0:19:43.869 --> 0:19:46.290 Yeah, so this is the part of exploring what's underneath 0:19:47.070 --> 0:19:51.620 and this ties very much into listening. So someone's interests 0:19:52.130 --> 0:19:54.340 generally will be uncovered the more you speak to them 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:56.680 and the more you listen to them. So if someone's 0:19:56.700 --> 0:19:58.820 just yelling at each other and they're kind of going 0:19:58.859 --> 0:20:02.200 back and forward, you're not really going to understand what 0:20:02.260 --> 0:20:04.500 is behind it. But if you can say to somebody, 0:20:05.660 --> 0:20:08.330 so why do you feel this way? How can we 0:20:08.350 --> 0:20:10.590 come to a solution that's going to benefit both of us? 0:20:11.170 --> 0:20:13.590 What's behind that? Why you feel this way? Whatever those 0:20:13.630 --> 0:20:17.210 questions are, the more you can ask them that and 0:20:17.230 --> 0:20:19.949 the more that you can allow them to speak is 0:20:20.030 --> 0:20:22.670 when you're going to start uncovering someone's interests. That's why 0:20:22.710 --> 0:20:25.810 I keep coming back to out of the clarify, listen, explore, align, 0:20:25.850 --> 0:20:30.210 and reset. That listen part can almost solve anything because 0:20:30.250 --> 0:20:33.810 the exploring what's underneath is not about you speaking. It's 0:20:33.830 --> 0:20:34.430