WEBVTT - Social media’s eating disorder ‘algorithm’

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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<v Speaker 1>Bungelung Calcottin woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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<v Speaker 1>that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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<v Speaker 1>Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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<v Speaker 1>Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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<v Speaker 1>first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning and welcome to the Daily Os. It's Friday,

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<v Speaker 2>the fifteenth of September. I'm Emma Gillespie. I'm the deputy

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<v Speaker 2>editor at The Daily Os.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Nicople, I'm the podcast producer, and of course we're

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<v Speaker 3>filling in for Sam and Zara, but.

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<v Speaker 2>Just for today one day only Friday special. This week,

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<v Speaker 2>eating disorder survivors and support advocates met with politicians and

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<v Speaker 2>social media bosses in Federal Parliament. They were there to

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<v Speaker 2>discuss the relationship between social media and eating disorders and

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<v Speaker 2>what needs to change.

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<v Speaker 3>But when it came to the biggest social media players,

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<v Speaker 3>there was one pretty noticeable appain.

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<v Speaker 4>It was quite concerning that TikTok wasn't there, considering they

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<v Speaker 4>have over a billion users now and also are really

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<v Speaker 4>playing a big role in perpetuating disordered eating, buddy image

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<v Speaker 4>issues and eating disordered behaviors as well.

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<v Speaker 2>In today's deep dive, I'm going to speak to Vasha Jajman.

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<v Speaker 2>She's a youth advocate for mental health and she was

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<v Speaker 2>there in Parliament yesterday. But one Nina when not far

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<v Speaker 2>off getting report into the Royal Commission into Disability.

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<v Speaker 3>That's right, over four years after it was established. The

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<v Speaker 3>Royal Commission into Violence, Abuse, Neglect and Exploitation of People

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<v Speaker 3>with Disability will conclude today. The commission began in April

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<v Speaker 3>twenty nineteen following widespread reports of severe misconduct against people

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<v Speaker 3>with disability. A final report, including a list of recommendations,

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<v Speaker 3>will be handed to the Governor General in two weeks.

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<v Speaker 2>Free dooaz stations will be given the first chance to

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<v Speaker 2>secure broadcast rights for future Matilda's World Cup matches before

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<v Speaker 2>subscription services. The Federal government announcement Inshaw's freeoware channels like nine,

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<v Speaker 2>seven to ten the abcsbs given the chance to acquire

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<v Speaker 2>broadcast deals before subscription services like streaming platforms can make

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<v Speaker 2>a bid. The government says this will ensure more Australians

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<v Speaker 2>can watch the Tillyes World Cup matches for free in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty seven and into the future.

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<v Speaker 3>US Senator Mitt Romney will retire from politics next year.

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<v Speaker 3>The seventy six year old was the Republican Party's presidential

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<v Speaker 3>nominee for the twenty twelve election, which you lost to

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<v Speaker 3>Barack Obama. Romney said it was time for a new

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<v Speaker 3>generation of leaders.

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<v Speaker 2>On X and the good News, Australian Paralympic swimmer Jack

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<v Speaker 2>Ireland broke his own world record at the Australian Short

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<v Speaker 2>Course Championships. Ireland beat his previous record in the multi

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<v Speaker 2>class S fourteen two hundred meter freestyle by almost a

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<v Speaker 2>whole second in Sydney on Wednesday night.

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<v Speaker 3>Emma, You've got a really interesting chat for us in

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<v Speaker 3>the deep dive today. I'm keen to get into it,

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<v Speaker 3>but before we do, I just want to give a

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<v Speaker 3>heads up that we'll be discussing eating disorders and more

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<v Speaker 3>specifically some of the triggers that exist for eating disorders

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<v Speaker 3>in the social media world. So if you don't fill

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<v Speaker 3>up to listening to that today, this might be one to.

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<v Speaker 2>Mess people with lived experience with eating disorders. Survivors advocates

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<v Speaker 2>met with metabosses at Parliament House in Canbro yesterday, and

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<v Speaker 2>of course Meta is the parent company of Facebook and Instagram.

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<v Speaker 2>It coincided with some new research from Melbourne UNI which

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<v Speaker 2>found TikTok shows over two hundred percent more appearanced based videos,

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<v Speaker 2>over three hundred percent more videos about dieting, and over

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<v Speaker 2>three thousand percent more videos about eating disorders to people

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<v Speaker 2>with an eating disorder than those without. So to find

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<v Speaker 2>out what happened at that meeting and what's likely to

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<v Speaker 2>happen moving forward, I spoke with Vashi Yajman yesterday. She

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<v Speaker 2>is a youth advocate for mental health and has lived

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<v Speaker 2>experience with an eating disorder. Vasha, thank you so much

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<v Speaker 2>for joining us. You've just been in Parliament for this meeting.

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<v Speaker 2>You've squeezed us into your busy day outside of cafe,

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<v Speaker 2>so thank you so much for making time. First of all,

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<v Speaker 2>how did the meeting go? How are you feeling?

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<v Speaker 5>I'm actually feeling pretty good.

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<v Speaker 4>It was really great to see all these different people

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<v Speaker 4>and especially meatow in the same room as parliamentarians and

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<v Speaker 4>people with lived experience and people who have been doing

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<v Speaker 4>so much work around eating disorders.

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<v Speaker 2>This meeting coincided with new research from the University of

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<v Speaker 2>Melbourne into TikTok, the algorithm which found, you know, broadly

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<v Speaker 2>that people with eating disorders are significantly more likely to

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<v Speaker 2>see appearance related videos, videos about dieting, eating disorder content,

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<v Speaker 2>exercise content. I wanted to ask you, first of all,

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<v Speaker 2>what does that content actually look like?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 4>So social media has been part of my eating disorder

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<v Speaker 4>journey since I was probably like twelve or like was.

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<v Speaker 4>I really started showing symptimes at fourteen, And it's morphed

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<v Speaker 4>into different ways.

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<v Speaker 5>So when I started out, it was kind of.

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<v Speaker 4>YouTube and people being like, this is what I eat

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<v Speaker 4>in a day, and what I eat in a day

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<v Speaker 4>is are your main culprit because a lot of them

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<v Speaker 4>have recently transformed into what I eat in a day

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<v Speaker 4>in recovery from eating disorder, or what I eat in

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<v Speaker 4>a day when I eat intuitively, or whatever I want.

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<v Speaker 4>But in reality, you're still comparing yourself to these really

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<v Speaker 4>unrealistic standards and it's just morphed into a new light.

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<v Speaker 4>You're being sold the exact same content that is eating

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<v Speaker 4>disorder content of you know, showing photos of people who

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<v Speaker 4>are really struggling or actually pushing the you know, disordered

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<v Speaker 4>eating agenda, but now it's being sold to you as

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<v Speaker 4>the way you should be eating and what health and

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<v Speaker 4>wellness is, what fitness is like, incredible amounts of protein

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<v Speaker 4>in your diet that apparently is the way that you're

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<v Speaker 4>supposed to be eating, exercise routines that are supposed to

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<v Speaker 4>be just part of a normal, healthy lifestyle, when it's

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<v Speaker 4>not actually focusing on the fact that this is a

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<v Speaker 4>mental disorder. That comparison, it's such a big part of it,

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<v Speaker 4>and that's why prevention and care in social media is

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<v Speaker 4>so incredibly important before we get to the point of

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<v Speaker 4>thinking about things like treatment.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you think social media platforms understand their impact in

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<v Speaker 2>this space, just how much of an impact and influence

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<v Speaker 2>they have over the young people on their platforms.

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<v Speaker 4>I think to some extent they might understand their impact,

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<v Speaker 4>but I think a lot of the times, and obviously

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<v Speaker 4>I can't speak directly for them, but it seems like

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<v Speaker 4>it's just another business model and it's whatever works best,

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<v Speaker 4>and if that means capitalizing off of millions of people

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<v Speaker 4>struggling with this big problem, then so be it.

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<v Speaker 5>And that's the really frightening.

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<v Speaker 4>Bit because it's almost that the norm is to sell

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<v Speaker 4>you diet culture content, and it's the responsibility of the

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<v Speaker 4>user to then make decisions not.

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<v Speaker 2>To For people who you know, see stories like these

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<v Speaker 2>studies or hear about, you know, kind of the toxicity

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<v Speaker 2>of culture on social media platforms, and they say to

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<v Speaker 2>people struggling, you know, just switch off, delete your account,

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<v Speaker 2>or block those accounts, or just don't go online, just

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<v Speaker 2>don't participate in that world. How do you respond to

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<v Speaker 2>those kind of comments?

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<v Speaker 4>Okay, well, I'd say think about it like this. So

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<v Speaker 4>let's say you have one hundred percent brain capacity and

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<v Speaker 4>like ninety nine percent of that is taken up by

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<v Speaker 4>your ating disorder or buy body image of shoes.

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<v Speaker 5>You have that one percent left.

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<v Speaker 4>That one percent is not thinking about switching off when

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<v Speaker 4>you're already all consumed by this. And I think a

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<v Speaker 4>large part of me personally thought that what I was

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<v Speaker 4>doing was for my own benefit. So it's really hard

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<v Speaker 4>to distinguish between negative content and positive content, and I

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<v Speaker 4>think that sometimes missed out. I also think social media

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<v Speaker 4>is really important because for like, personally, from my experience

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<v Speaker 4>being a person of color, I didn't have much support

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<v Speaker 4>around me.

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<v Speaker 5>So validating my experience.

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<v Speaker 4>Meant turning to social media to actually look for resources,

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<v Speaker 4>and then when you're being sold content that supposed to

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<v Speaker 4>benefit your recovery but is actually detrimental.

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<v Speaker 5>That's quite terrifying.

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<v Speaker 4>So for first nations, queer, people of color communities, social

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<v Speaker 4>media plays an even bigger role, Le'd say.

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<v Speaker 2>So, armed with all that experience of your own and

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<v Speaker 2>the lived experience of others that you've spoken to and

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<v Speaker 2>worked with, what was the most important goal of heading

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<v Speaker 2>to Parliament to meet with these bosses? What was the

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<v Speaker 2>aim heading into that meeting?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well, I think for me it was just really

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<v Speaker 4>understanding what is being done and also making the point

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<v Speaker 4>that the accessibility functions is saying not interested, not interested,

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<v Speaker 4>not interested in all your diet culture content is very

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<v Speaker 4>mentally trading. I know for myself, going on Instagram and

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<v Speaker 4>then having to go through these like multiple different settings

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<v Speaker 4>to censor all of the diet culture content was a lot,

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<v Speaker 4>and it's something that a lot of people don't know about.

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<v Speaker 4>So I think the main goal was to really figure

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<v Speaker 4>out what's actually being done from these companies and then

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<v Speaker 4>also making the point that more accessibility around this one

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<v Speaker 4>needs to be there.

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<v Speaker 2>And how did they feedback to that? How was their response?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, in terms of this idea of the algorithm.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything we do is sort of so intrinsic to the

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<v Speaker 2>algorithm online and you see one video, the algorithm thinks

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<v Speaker 2>you engage in it, so it serves you another one.

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<v Speaker 2>What was their response to how we even begin to

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<v Speaker 2>tackle that?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so they were talking about a lot of the

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<v Speaker 4>work that they are doing in partnership with organizations like

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<v Speaker 4>the Butterfly Foundation should to create resources and educational content,

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<v Speaker 4>which is really great. But then I think also some

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<v Speaker 4>really great points that other people made was the fact

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<v Speaker 4>that a lot of the time the content that we

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<v Speaker 4>receive isn't even because we're engaging with the content itself,

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<v Speaker 4>but purely because it's being sold to us. And then

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<v Speaker 4>saying that you're not interested in all of this content

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<v Speaker 4>and trying to set your algorithm up in the best

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<v Speaker 4>way possible is really difficult.

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<v Speaker 2>How do you think these platforms responded to that feedback?

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<v Speaker 2>Do you think they're open to practical change implementing that

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<v Speaker 2>or did you feel resistance?

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 4>So, coming out of the meeting, there's now going to

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<v Speaker 4>be a working group steered by the Butterfly Foundation and

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<v Speaker 4>then also working with Meta to see what we can

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<v Speaker 4>actually do to make sure that there are more social

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<v Speaker 4>media protocols. So I think what that looks like exactly

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<v Speaker 4>is still being figured out. But having actual solid actions

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<v Speaker 4>coming out of that meeting felt really really good, because

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<v Speaker 4>I think, first of all, we're not really talking about

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<v Speaker 4>eating disorders in parliament ever, and then it's really uncommon

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<v Speaker 4>to actually have social media.

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<v Speaker 5>Giants like Beta part of these conversations.

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<v Speaker 4>But I also think just knowing that these platforms do

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<v Speaker 4>hold such great power and that they should be doing

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<v Speaker 4>more something to keep in mind, and also that social

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<v Speaker 4>media is one part of the bigger picture.

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<v Speaker 5>At the end of the day.

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<v Speaker 4>The amount of funding putting to eating disorders, especially regarding

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<v Speaker 4>like First nations and communities of color, is.

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<v Speaker 5>Really really important to look at.

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<v Speaker 4>And social media is a vital world, but providing funding

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<v Speaker 4>to the greater system such as like healthcare is incredibly important.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course you met with bosses from Meta obviously

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<v Speaker 2>Meta parent company Instagram, Facebook. But the elephant in the room,

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<v Speaker 2>of course is TikTok. You know, the world's fastest growing

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<v Speaker 2>social media platform. All that research from UNI Melbourne that

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<v Speaker 2>we touched on, does that concern you that there wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>a TikTok representative in the room.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it was quite concerning that TikTok wasn't there, considering

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<v Speaker 4>they have over a billion users now and also are

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<v Speaker 4>really playing a big role in perpetuating disordered eating buddy

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<v Speaker 4>image issues and eating disorder behaviors as well, and the

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<v Speaker 4>way that they aren't really screening the content and selling

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<v Speaker 4>you content that is supposed to be about health and wellness,

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<v Speaker 4>but it's actually just glorifying eating disorders. So I really

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<v Speaker 4>do think that they should take some ownership and recognize

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<v Speaker 4>that they hold such a great amount of power and

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<v Speaker 4>that they do have the resources and the means.

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<v Speaker 5>To actually do something about this.

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<v Speaker 4>It really shouldn't fall on people who are struggling with

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<v Speaker 4>the mental illness.

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<v Speaker 2>And for people listening who might be struggling either with

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<v Speaker 2>the needing disorder or in recovery from a needing disorder,

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<v Speaker 2>where can they go? What are the resources that you

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<v Speaker 2>want those people to know about.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so if you have a support network around you,

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<v Speaker 4>that's great, turn to that. If not, there's a butterfly

0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.440
<v Speaker 4>eating disorder helpline, And I think just knowing in yourself

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<v Speaker 4>that what you're feeling is incredibly valid.

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<v Speaker 5>If there is a counselor you can talk to. I

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<v Speaker 5>would say that really.

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<v Speaker 4>Is the best step, even if it's just at school

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<v Speaker 4>or going to your GP and having that conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much. We so appreciate your time, and

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<v Speaker 2>thank you for being so open and vulnerable and sharing

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<v Speaker 2>with us.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much for having me and if you

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<v Speaker 3>do need help, you can call the Butterfly Helpline on

0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.000
<v Speaker 3>one eight hundred eedy hope that's one eight hundred three

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<v Speaker 3>three four six seven three, or head to butterfly dot

0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.320
<v Speaker 3>org dot au. Thanks so much for joining us on

0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:57.440
<v Speaker 3>the daily ours this week. Sam and Sara will be

0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.439
<v Speaker 3>back with you on Monday. Until then, have an excellent weekend.