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Speaker 1: The private school rankings from around the nation were released

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Speaker 1: just over a week ago, on two or three weeks

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Speaker 1: ago now actually, and the papers have been filled with

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Speaker 1: stories about how each school hits, how each school is

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Speaker 1: serving our kids. Now, I'm going to be really clear,

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Speaker 1: I don't like this stuff. Parents are scrolling through lists,

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Speaker 1: they're calculating fees, and they're wondering should I be doing

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Speaker 1: more for my child's education and we failing by staying public?

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Speaker 1: What can I do to put myself into greater financial

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Speaker 1: debts so that I can give my child the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to go to a school that has this ranking or

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Speaker 1: this particular outcome. Today we're cutting through the marketing hype

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Speaker 1: to look at what the research actually says about school choice,

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Speaker 1: and you might be surprised by what really matters for

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Speaker 1: your child's future. Stay with us, Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast, Real parenting Solutions every day on

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Speaker 1: Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Colson. Kylie, incidentally,

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Speaker 1: we received via a Happy Fani do I use? Somebody

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Speaker 1: sent us a voice note asking a question about what

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Speaker 1: to do about choosing a high school for their kids.

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Speaker 1: Is what Joseip, Good morning, Happy families. Joe here from Canberra.

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Speaker 1: I was hoping for some advice about what to look for,

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Speaker 1: what kind of questions to ask, or what research to

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Speaker 1: do when looking for our high school for children.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I feel like we've gone through this conversation

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Speaker 2: maybe a handful of times in our home, more than

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Speaker 2: a handful, because our children haven't stayed at the same school.

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Speaker 2: This is a really hard question for parents to.

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Speaker 1: Grapple with, yeah, all the time, really really frustrating, and

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Speaker 1: there's so much information out there as well. I'm not

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Speaker 1: a big fan of these school rankings, what about you, No.

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Speaker 2: I feel like it creates this this idea of exclusivity

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Speaker 2: and it's competitive, right, and the more competitive a school is,

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Speaker 2: the more they can charge. And then families find themselves

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Speaker 2: in this position where they want their children to have

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Speaker 2: the best possible outcomes that they can give them and

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Speaker 2: they're willing to do anything for that. And having been

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Speaker 2: in that position where we put our children into a

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Speaker 2: school that we probably really shouldn't have been able to affward,

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Speaker 2: and the emotional, mental and financial stress that we sat in,

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Speaker 2: oh yeah, for that two years was ridiculous, and it

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Speaker 2: didn't benefit anyone in the long run.

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Speaker 1: No, it was really, really, really a heavy load to

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Speaker 1: carry and pulling the kids out of that school simply

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Speaker 1: from the anxiety reduction that it created for us. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we went backwards financially for a couple of years, and

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Speaker 1: pretty soon you get to a point where you've got

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Speaker 1: nothing left and you're going, we can't keep on doing this.

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Speaker 1: It's very, very difficult.

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Speaker 2: And interestingly, the contrast to that, we put our children

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Speaker 2: into the public school system and they.

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Speaker 1: Thrived, they were really happy there. Yeah, so let's have

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Speaker 1: a quick chat about this. In a nutshell, single sex

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Speaker 1: schools are dominating. Based on these recent rankings, fees in

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Speaker 1: some of these schools are approaching forty five thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: a year. That doesn't include if you're boarding, because the

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Speaker 1: numbers go up even more for boarding and.

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Speaker 2: The mark How do families afford this?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. The marketing promises sound really compelling. Here's

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Speaker 1: what I want to explore today. What does the evidence

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Speaker 1: actually tell us about school choice and what should parents

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Speaker 1: really focus on? So let's kick off with a conversation

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Speaker 1: about private versus public quick reality check recent Australian research following,

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Speaker 1: thousands of students found that napland scores of kids in

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Speaker 1: private schools were no different to those in public schools

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Speaker 1: when you account for socioeconomic background. So let me say

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Speaker 1: that again, because statistically this can sound a little bit

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Speaker 1: confusing for some people. When you control statistically for family circumstances,

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Speaker 1: private schools aren't actually producing better outcomes.

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Speaker 2: So, just so I'm clear, what you're suggesting is they're

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Speaker 2: kind of they're looking at families from the same socio

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Speaker 2: economic in both public and private. Is that right?

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Speaker 1: That's exactly right. So what we know is that public

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Speaker 1: schools generally draw from a broader socioeconomic catchment. That is,

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Speaker 1: you've got people who can't afford private school, so they're

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Speaker 1: much lower on the socio economic scale, as well as

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Speaker 1: plenty of people who can afford but choose not to

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Speaker 1: spend their money on private schools, so they've got a

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Speaker 1: much broader range. So when you look at the overall

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Speaker 1: outcome of the public school compared with the fancy private

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Speaker 1: school down the road, the private school wins hands down

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Speaker 1: on napland scores, Right, they just win. But once you

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Speaker 1: partial out on once you account for statistically, the socioeconomic

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Speaker 1: circumstances of some students. So you start to compare like

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Speaker 1: against like, yep, no difference. And this I mean, I've

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Speaker 1: always said, you show me the postcode and I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you what the napland scores are. It's got nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with the school. It's got everything to do with

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Speaker 1: the post code. That's why there's a post code premium

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Speaker 1: that real estate agents really leverage because if the home

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Speaker 1: is near a school in the right postcode, people will

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Speaker 1: pay a premium because they want to be in the

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Speaker 1: right postcode. Why because the catchment. Well yeah, and you're

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Speaker 1: in a school where a whole lot of families are

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Speaker 1: saying we value education because we're earning the money because

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Speaker 1: we've got our good educations ourselves. That's how that kind

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Speaker 1: of works. Study after study after study, including in that

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Speaker 1: of sixty eight education systems that are participating in the

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Speaker 1: international PISA tests, shows that private school attendance is not

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Speaker 1: consistently related to higher test performance. There was also an

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Speaker 1: analysis recently in Victoria. The VC results showed public schools

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Speaker 1: are actually outperforming private schools when you compare schools with

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Speaker 1: similar socioeconomic rankings.

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Speaker 2: So what are parents really buying for forty five thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: So what I'm going to say may sound really cynical.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to say it anyway. They're purchasing the illusion

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Speaker 1: of superiority, and they're purchasing the comfort of social segregation.

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Speaker 1: It's a class system. Private schools have become luxury brands

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Speaker 1: and they deliver status rather than outcomes. Right, private school

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Speaker 1: it's like walking through the airport and you've got the

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Speaker 1: LVMH bag, You've got the fancy bag with the Louis

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Speaker 1: Vuitton bag with the logos, right, and you just get

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Speaker 1: to feel a little bit superior. That's one thing that

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Speaker 1: private schools provide. Now, am I saying that every family

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Speaker 1: who sends their kids to a private school therefore gets

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Speaker 1: to feel superior. No, I'm not doing that at all. Well,

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying is that the private schools now market

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Speaker 1: themselves as luxury brands, and in so doing they become aspirational.

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Speaker 1: Everybody wants their kids to have the luxury. We all

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Speaker 1: want the very best for our kids. So this is

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Speaker 1: not a slight on the kids. This is about the

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Speaker 1: class system that we've built in education around this. We're

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Speaker 1: so invested in the promise that we spend the dough

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Speaker 1: and we don't look at what the statistics actually show.

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Speaker 2: I know that when we've gone through this process a

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Speaker 2: handful of times, the schools have basically told us that

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Speaker 2: it's not us choosing them, it's whether or not they

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Speaker 2: choose us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know that notion of exclusivity absolutely absolutely, Colin.

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Speaker 1: Let me say this. I get to work in a

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Speaker 1: lot of these schools, and maybe after today's podcast, I

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Speaker 1: never will again. I don't know, but these schools are astonishing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they've got these incredible Olympic level pools, they've

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Speaker 1: got green fields, they've got beautiful views and grounds. I've

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Speaker 1: been in some schools where the views you literally cannot buy.

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Speaker 2: So state of the technology.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you've got forty five k a year to spend,

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Speaker 1: you're going to get smaller classes, you're going to get

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Speaker 1: more resources, you're going to get broader subject offerings. The

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Speaker 1: co curricular programming is exceptional, and you will get a

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Speaker 1: very different school culture. And I would even go so

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Speaker 1: far as to say that these things matter for the

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Speaker 1: school experience, even if they don't necessarily translate to better outcomes.

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Speaker 1: And when I'm in those schools. Generally speaking, the kids

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Speaker 1: are pretty happy. They're not worried about the same sort

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Speaker 1: of things that kids in maybe the public school down

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Speaker 1: the road are worried about. But here's the thing we're

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Speaker 1: only talking today about. Academics and public schools are achieving

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Speaker 1: comparable results while serving a vastly different population. Disadvantaged students

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Speaker 1: account for forty six percent of public school enrollments compared

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Speaker 1: to only twenty percent in private schools. Public schools are

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Speaker 1: doing more with less, and frankly, they're doing it well.

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Speaker 1: So is private better? I think that it just depends

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Speaker 1: on how you measure better, what better means to your

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Speaker 1: better resourced. Absolutely, it's undeniable better for your child's learning.

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Speaker 1: The evidence suggests it's probably not, at least not in

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Speaker 1: ways that show up in academic achievement. The question that

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Speaker 1: I ask myself is this, would I pay forty five

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year? I think the local private school

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Speaker 1: down the road from US is about twenty five or

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Speaker 1: twenty eight thousand here on the Sunshine Coast, and that's

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Speaker 1: one of the highest fee paying schools on the coast.

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Speaker 1: Would I pay that thirty grand a year if I

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Speaker 1: had the money. I can't say for certain that I

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Speaker 1: would or I wouldn't. We don't have the choice, so

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Speaker 1: I don't have to make the decision. But based on

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Speaker 1: the research, I'm not convinced that would be the best

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Speaker 1: use of our resources. After the break, I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: what is the best use of your resources when it

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Speaker 1: comes to your children and education. Okay, it's vexed, it's emotional,

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Speaker 1: and people really struggle when they're making these decisions. Here's

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Speaker 1: what the research says about children and education outcomes. I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about two ideas. One is the teacher

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Speaker 1: factor and one is known as the proximity principle. Teachers

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Speaker 1: matter more to student achievement than any other school related factor, and.

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Speaker 2: I wish every teacher understood that.

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Speaker 1: I think I think many of them do. I want

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Speaker 1: to make this point really clear. Whether I'm in private

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Speaker 1: or public schools, or Christian schools and on denominational schools

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Speaker 1: or alternati schools, it doesn't matter what school I go to.

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Speaker 1: The overwhelming majority of teachers that I work with, they

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Speaker 1: love their work and they love the students. They struggle

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Speaker 1: with the system. Most teachers will tell me the system

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Speaker 1: is not fair on us or on the kids. But

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Speaker 1: they love their work and they love the students. I

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Speaker 1: get goosebumps talking about it because you can just tell

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Speaker 1: the professionalism, the enthusiasm, the desire. For the overwhelming majority,

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Speaker 1: I'd say eighty to ninety percent of teachers are just

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Speaker 1: in it for all the right reasons. But when you

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Speaker 1: look at school factors, teachers are estimated to have two

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Speaker 1: to three times the effect of any other element, including

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Speaker 1: the facilities and the resources and the leadership. You get

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Speaker 1: this students assigned high value added teachers are more likely

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Speaker 1: to graduate from high school, go to university, be employed,

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Speaker 1: and earn higher wages. I found this study from Harvard

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Speaker 1: economist RAJ Chetty. Now this was a controversial study that

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Speaker 1: he published and it was in the US, but I

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Speaker 1: think that it's enough for us to at least have

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Speaker 1: a conversation about. He and his colleagues found that replacing

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Speaker 1: a bottom five percent teacher with just an average teacher

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Speaker 1: would increase student's lifetime income by more than a quarter

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Speaker 1: of a million dollars. In other words, teachers make a

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Speaker 1: huge difference.

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Speaker 2: As you're talking about that, I'm thinking about so many

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Speaker 2: different teachers in our children's lives who were so instrumental

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Speaker 2: in sparking our kid's curiosity. And one teacher in particular

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Speaker 2: comes to mind. His name was mister Cotter. He was

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Speaker 2: a science teacher. And Chanell, our eldest, she hated science.

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Speaker 2: And one day she came home and we were talking

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Speaker 2: and she said, I just love sigeience. I just love

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Speaker 2: it so much. And I looked at her and I went.

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Speaker 1: What is going on here?

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Speaker 2: When did that change? Yeh, yep, yep, And she said,

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Speaker 2: my teacher just brings it to life. And what's amazing

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Speaker 2: is all these years later she's actually gone science based

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Speaker 2: and she's in Midwiffrey. I just I love that this

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Speaker 2: teacher sparked in her something that she never would have

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Speaker 2: gone to had he have not shared with her his

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Speaker 2: passion and love for all things science.

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Speaker 1: Yep, yep. You can't buy it, you can't guarantee. It's

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Speaker 1: got nothing to do with school fees. It's all about

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Speaker 1: relationship and inspiration. So let's bring this home and wrap

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Speaker 1: it up. What should you be looking for? If we

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Speaker 1: would answer our cambermum's question about trying to select a school,

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Speaker 1: what should you be looking for? This is my list?

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Speaker 1: Number one. I'm going to say, focus on school proximity

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Speaker 1: home and I'll tell you why. Students who feel more

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Speaker 1: connected to school have higher tendance rates, they have higher

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Speaker 1: academic outcomes, they have better mental health. Kelly and Allen,

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Speaker 1: from a University of Melbourne, has done a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of research on school belonging her and her colleague Diana

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Speaker 1: Vella Broderick, and what they find is that when kids

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Speaker 1: feel like they belong in their school, they just do

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Speaker 1: better both inside school and outside of school. Plus, when

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Speaker 1: you choose a school inside your local community, your kids

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Speaker 1: are much more likely to have friends nearby. They're more

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Speaker 1: likely to participaid en after school activities with those friends

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Speaker 1: and feel genuinely connected not just to their school environment,

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Speaker 1: but to their home environment as well.

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Speaker 2: What we've found over the years is our kids have

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Speaker 2: gone to different private schools. Is often kids are traveling

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Speaker 2: fifty minutes an hour and a half.

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Speaker 1: Let's catch up on the weekend. Yet we live like

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Speaker 1: on the other side of town. It's nuts and it's.

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Speaker 2: So hard, and kids have basically said, yeah, my parents

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Speaker 2: won't drive me. Yeah, and it's really really challenging.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, the parents won't drive them because

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Speaker 1: the parents are exhausted because they're absolutely smashing themselves, so

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Speaker 1: they can pay the school fees to get the kids

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Speaker 1: the best opportunity they can when the school down the

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Speaker 1: road could help Australia as public education system is actually

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Speaker 1: really good by international standards. So unless you've got really

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Speaker 1: strong values based reasons for avoiding public schools, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's a legitimate consideration, child is likely to do

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Speaker 1: just as well academically an equality local public school. We've

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Speaker 1: always said, don't look at results, resources and reputation, instead

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Speaker 1: look at fun, friends and the philosophy of the school.

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Speaker 2: I was about to say that for me, it's a

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Speaker 2: values based thing. What are the things that I value

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Speaker 2: most and then go from there, And for me, relationships

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Speaker 2: are high on the list. I wouldn't be sending my

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Speaker 2: children to a school because their best friend goes there, necessarily,

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Speaker 2: I would be sending them to a school where a

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Speaker 2: number of their friends go. As we know, relationships change

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Speaker 2: can be really transient and if there's only one person

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Speaker 2: that they're counting on, that's going to be challenging. But

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Speaker 2: if they have multiple kids who go that they enjoy

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Speaker 2: spending time with, they're going to feel a lot better

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Speaker 2: because they already feel a sense of belonging.

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Speaker 1: All right, we're out of time, but I want to

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Speaker 1: do some maths with you really quickly. Yeah, no, no, I

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Speaker 1: got really excited about doing this. I was just thinking

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Speaker 1: about how much money we spend on school fees as

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Speaker 1: an Australian community. Right, So first of all, let me

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Speaker 1: again emphasize look for the great teacher and stay in

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Speaker 1: your local community if you can, Like, if you send

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Speaker 1: your kids still a good local school, and then you

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Speaker 1: invest the time that you save on commuting in family

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Speaker 1: activities and community connections and sleep, and you're just going

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Speaker 1: to have a better life. Research shows that students feel

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Speaker 1: supported by teachers and peers just have better outcomes. But

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Speaker 1: if you determine to spend that forty five k each year,

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Speaker 1: this is the maths that I did. Let's say instead

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Speaker 1: of a high fee paying school, we're just going to

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Speaker 1: go with a low fee paying school, which is usually

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Speaker 1: somewhere around about ten thousand dollars. So if you were

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Speaker 1: to invest ten thousand dollars per year and an index

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Speaker 1: fund from age twelve through to eighteen your child's high

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Speaker 1: school years, that's sixty K that you're investing with conservative

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Speaker 1: seven percent returns, your child at the age of thirty

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Speaker 1: five will have two hundred and seventy three thousand dollars,

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Speaker 1: and if you have an optimistic ten percent return, you're

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Speaker 1: going to have half a million bucks at the age

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Speaker 1: of thirty five. That's a significant head start in your

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Speaker 1: mid thirties when you really need the dough. But then

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Speaker 1: I got really ambitious. So let's say you're going to

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Speaker 1: spend twenty five thousand dollars a year that a lot

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Speaker 1: of elite private schools is actually cost when you're factor

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Speaker 1: in all the extras. If you invest that same amount,

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Speaker 1: so I still haven't gone to the forty five thousand,

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Speaker 1: but let's say it's twenty five k because it's an

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Speaker 1: expensive private school. Let's say you invest that in the

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Speaker 1: market instead, and your child walks into adulthood at the

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Speaker 1: age of thirty five that twenty five K year. Over

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Speaker 1: six years, it's one hundred and fifty k. But because

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Speaker 1: of the way compounding works, once they're thirty five, that's

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Speaker 1: six hundred and eighty three thousand dollars that it will

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Speaker 1: have become. Or if you get those teenp center returns,

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Speaker 1: it'll be one point two million dollars, like we are

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Speaker 1: literally talking about giving your children enough money to buy

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Speaker 1: a house outright, or start a business or never worry

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Speaker 1: about money again. So that's not giving them an education.

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Speaker 1: They'll get the education of the public system anyway. What

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Speaker 1: that is is generational wealth transfer. But I mean, we

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Speaker 1: can keep on obsessing other school uniforms and Latin programs

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Speaker 1: if we want. I don't know, that's my cynical take

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Speaker 1: on it. Or you can do what we've done and

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Speaker 1: choose home school and use targeted tutoring because it gives

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Speaker 1: us maximum flexibility and allows us to tailor education our

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Speaker 1: children's needs and cost a fraction of private school fees

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Speaker 1: while it potentially delivers great outcomes because of the personalized learning. Anyway, Joe,

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Speaker 1: thanks for the question. Maybe I've gone too far, maybe

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Speaker 1: we've said too much, But hopefully the whole idea of

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Speaker 1: this conversation is not to tell you that we're right.

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Speaker 1: It's to provoke thinking around the education decisions that we're making.

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Speaker 1: The rankings in the marketing are always going to try

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Speaker 1: and convince you that more expensive equals better, but I

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Speaker 1: think the research tells a different story, folks. I'm finding

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Speaker 1: good teachers build great school connection, create a learning rich

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Speaker 1: home environment. I think those factors are going to serve

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Speaker 1: you kids far better than any school ranking ever.

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Speaker 2: Will Well, for now, I'm just grateful we don't have

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Speaker 2: to make any decisions around school. It's home school and

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Speaker 2: all the way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, although she's been making some noises, I know. We

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Speaker 1: really hope this's giving you somebody to think about it.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 1: If you know somebody who would benefit from this conversation,

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Speaker 1: please forward share the podcast episode with them. We'd love

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Speaker 1: to be able to make a difference in as many

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Speaker 1: families as we possibly can. The Happy Families podcast is

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Speaker 1: produced by Justin Rulon from Bridge Media and Mim Hammond's

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Speaker 1: provides additional research and admin support. If you would like

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Speaker 1: more information and resources to make your family happier, visit

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Speaker 1: us at happy families dot com dot a you