1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:00,960 Speaker 1: Hello. 2 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 2: My name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud your the Order, 3 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 2: Kernie Whoalbury and a waddery woman. And before we get 4 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 2: started on She's on the Money podcast, I would like 5 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 2: to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of which 6 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 2: this podcast is recorded on a wondery country, acknowledging the elders, 7 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,319 Speaker 2: the ancestors and the next generation coming through as this 8 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 2: podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and the storytelling 9 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 2: of you to make a difference for today and lasting 10 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 2: impact for tomorrow. 11 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: Let's get into it. 12 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 3: She's on the Money, She's on the Money. 13 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 4: Hello, and welcome to were Bone episode of She's on 14 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 4: the Money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. 15 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 4: My name is Victoria Devine and today we have a 16 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 4: very special bonus episode of the show that is looking 17 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 4: at the psychology of savings and we also have a 18 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 4: very special guest, my friend. Doctor Lillly Susman is a 19 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 4: social scientist and the chief strategy officer at Wiser. Lily's 20 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 4: PhD research at Harvard University was on decision making, behavioral 21 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 4: economics and psychology, and foreign policy. Decision making Throughout her career, 22 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 4: Lily has been guided by a purpose to understand and 23 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 4: address profound human flourishing, including financial, relational, and psychological wellbeing. 24 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 4: She is supporting Australians to make effective and incremental changes 25 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 4: in aligning everyday money behaviors to deeper values. And I 26 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 4: cannot think of something that aligns more to She's on 27 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 4: the money than doctor Lily Susman. As Chief Strategy Officer, 28 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 4: Lily conceptualized wiser Today from scratch and we are or 29 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 4: I am super thrilled to have her here with us today. 30 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: Lily, welcome to the show. 31 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 5: Oh thank you, Victoria. You know that I'm a massive 32 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 5: fan of this community. I'm super passionate about what we're 33 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,839 Speaker 5: talking about and everything this community cares about. So it's 34 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,679 Speaker 5: really wonderful to be here today talking with you about 35 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 5: financial health. 36 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 4: I feel like I am so excited to welcome you 37 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 4: to the show because this might sound really new to 38 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 4: everybody listening, but you have been slaving away over this 39 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 4: for literally years and I even got the opportunity to 40 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 4: sign an NDA and be brought into the loop literally 41 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 4: more than a year ago to talk to you about this, 42 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 4: and you know, play a little role in it, and 43 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 4: I'm just so glad that it is launched, and I'm 44 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 4: just honestly so excited because I one hundred percent identify 45 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 4: with everything that drives you so lily. Let's start off 46 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 4: with money stress. You describe money and financial stress, says quote, 47 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 4: one of the last taboos. Why do you think it's 48 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 4: still so hard for us to open up about financial 49 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 4: stress or talk about money with our friends and family? 50 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 6: Oh yeah, such a good question. Money is such a 51 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 6: big taboo in our culture. 52 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 5: National surveys have shown that we're actually more comfortable talking 53 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 5: with our friends about virtually anything else, like politics, religion, 54 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 5: even you know, things like addiction, race, marital discord, sex. 55 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 5: We'd actually go to great length to avoid the subject. 56 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 5: There was a survey done that showed that almost a 57 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 5: third of us would rather sit through two hours of 58 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 5: traffic or speak in front of a large audience than 59 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 5: have to discuss this taboo subject of money. And it's 60 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 5: crazy because the average person is secretly worrying about it 61 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 5: multiple times a day, and the evidence shows that nearly 62 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 5: half of Australians are regularly stressing about money. But it's 63 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 5: just so awkward to bring up, right, Imagine one minute 64 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 5: you're with friends and you're laughing over drinks, and then 65 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 5: the next minute someone brings up the cost of the 66 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 5: evening out or their savings plan, and the mood just like, ooh, 67 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 5: just plants and chill. 68 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: Not in my house, my friend, never not in my house. 69 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 4: I feel like it's funny because you said people would 70 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 4: rather the sit in traffic, and the community you're talking 71 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 4: to right now literally sit in traffic and listen to 72 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,799 Speaker 4: money podcasts. So we might not be able to super 73 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 4: resonate with that, but I feel like every other Australian, 74 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 4: though that's not in the ses on the money community 75 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 4: is like I would literally rather the sit in traffic, 76 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 4: and then our community like, oh, when we're sitting in traffic, 77 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 4: that's what we're doing exactly. 78 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 5: But that's what makes this community so special, right because 79 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 5: we're together breaking the taboo. But I think, you know, 80 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 5: the surveys around the average person and their level of 81 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 5: comfort talking about money socially is very, very low, and 82 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,239 Speaker 5: it's so awkward and it feels hard to talk about 83 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 5: because you know, we live in a society where sometimes 84 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 5: we're made to feel like or we have this implicit 85 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 5: norm that our self worth is somehow related or even 86 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 5: based on how much money we have, how rich we look. 87 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 5: And there's a lot of shame still around not having 88 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 5: as much money as those around us, fearing that we're 89 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 5: somehow maybe not as valued or we don't belong if 90 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,239 Speaker 5: we can't keep up financially, and just makes it hard 91 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 5: to talk about with friends, whether you're the friend with 92 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 5: more money or the friend with less money. 93 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: Why do you think we still like that? 94 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 6: Though? 95 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 4: I just genuinely, you know, obviously I'm in a very 96 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 4: privileged position, but like, why is it still so awkward? 97 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: Like why are we feeling this way? 98 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 6: Yeah, it's such a good question. 99 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 5: I just think there's this implicit norm that we've been 100 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 5: raised with, right, that money equals worse. 101 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 6: But it's not. 102 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 5: And I think there's also this second hidden norm that 103 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 5: somehow we're sort of responsible for how we're doing financially, 104 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 5: like it's our fault if things aren't going well. But actually, 105 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 5: you know, both externally and internally externally, there are systemic 106 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 5: reasons outside of our control. And you know, there are 107 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 5: things like the gender pay gap, the things you talk 108 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 5: about a lot, the fact that more women do caring professions, 109 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 5: which often pay less challenges from the changing recroeconomic environment 110 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 5: are family histories, unexpected stuff like COVID, job loss, separation, illness. 111 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 5: You know, so many things happen to us we don't 112 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 5: control that they can impact our financial lives. And then internally, 113 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 5: we were never taught about money habits or the psychology 114 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 5: behind them, and so our money behaviors are typically an 115 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 5: autopilot and they're not our fault because of the way 116 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 5: our brains work, and so we have to experience sort 117 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 5: of modeling through all of that, and we're often blaming 118 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 5: ourselves unfairly, feeling embarrassed, feeling responsible. And who wants to 119 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 5: talk about that with friends? 120 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 6: I mean, I do you do? We need to? It's 121 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 6: so important, I do. 122 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 4: We're really cool though, we are so cool. I feel 123 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 4: like we excelled at school and had no friends and 124 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 4: this is where we've ended up. 125 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: And that's how we found each other. 126 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 5: Well, you know what, I think not having friends earlier, 127 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 5: when we. 128 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: Were nerding, I was busy building this. 129 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 5: You know, what's never too late. And I think you're 130 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 5: an expert connector and you're you know, this is a 131 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 5: community where people belong. 132 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 6: And can break the taboo. 133 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 5: And I think the antidote to that money being taboo 134 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 5: is so key because you know, we all say the 135 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 5: truth will set you free, right, And we're also hardwired 136 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 5: as social beings for connection and belonging, so we don't 137 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 5: want to struggle in silence privately, but we have to 138 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 5: just recognize there is still this taboo that money somehow 139 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 5: equates with worth, and that we unfairly blame ourselves, and 140 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 5: it's just really important to see start seeing money differently, 141 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 5: that you know, it's a recent to live life how 142 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 5: we want and that's all it is, and we can 143 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 5: change it and. 144 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 6: Make it better. Yeah. 145 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 4: No, absolutely, you touched on something before that I obviously 146 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 4: hop on about in our community. You said it might 147 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 4: be how we grew up, and a really big part 148 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 4: of the shoes on the money messages sharing the importance 149 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 4: of really understanding deeply your money story and then making 150 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 4: decisions that really align with your values. I feel like 151 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 4: my community's heard me say that a million times. I 152 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 4: feel like every question I get asked, I'm like, well, 153 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 4: it depends on your values. And then when money stories 154 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 4: are introduced to us, we seem to be shook by 155 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 4: this concept because we've never heard of it before. 156 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: So like, why do you think that is? 157 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 4: And why do you think that not many of us 158 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 4: know how important our money stories are to understand deeply. 159 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, psychology and managing our health and behavior, 160 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 5: they're so foundational to our well being, but they're not 161 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 5: taught in school at all, and exploring our values and 162 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 5: our behavior in the psychology behind them is just not 163 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 5: something we naturally do, right, And we just talked about 164 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 5: how money is still taboo for so many of us 165 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 5: and hushed up and the culture has completely misrepresented money 166 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 5: as about being about numbers, you know, so what would 167 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 5: you know our beliefs, emotions, or values have to do 168 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 5: with it? You know, if you want to get on 169 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 5: top of your finances, the things that were and often 170 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 5: still are considered necessary are things like knowledge and practical skills. 171 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 6: Like people talk. 172 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 5: About budgeting, spending less, saving more, investing, growing your wealth. 173 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 6: Here's how you do it. 174 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 5: But the problem is that knowledge is necessary but not 175 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 5: sufficient for behavior change. So when we're struggling or we 176 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 5: want to do better, we're used to thinking, Okay, well, 177 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 5: what more information do I need, rather than going and 178 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 5: try to figure out what's causing to struggle, Like what's 179 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 5: actually underneath what I makesperiencing and what's the real solution. 180 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 6: The real solution is always around. 181 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 5: It's not about being more rational or more massy, or 182 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 5: getting more money knowledge. It's actually about getting clear on 183 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 5: our psychology and our habits and the underlying stuff that's 184 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 5: happening in our brains that's behind it all. So we 185 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 5: need to understand the context that's creating the behaviors and 186 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 5: the feelings, and we need to get into our values 187 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 5: and money stories, none of which happens on its own, right. 188 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, never, We just are not taught to do that. 189 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:38,719 Speaker 5: We don't do that in every day lives. So it's 190 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 5: no surprise that we don't understand money. We don't understand 191 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 5: why we're managing and spending money and thinking about money. 192 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 6: The way that we do. 193 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 5: But luckily, there's more and more conversations like this one 194 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 5: in our culture that's really having an impact, and there's 195 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 5: growing recognition of why is it that our values in 196 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 5: our psychology is so important and what's the relationship between 197 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 5: you know, what we see when we open up our 198 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 5: banking appter transaction balances, and our habits which are often hidden, 199 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 5: and then psychology underneath that. 200 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy. 201 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 4: I feel like so many of us have grown up 202 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 4: with this underlying assumption that one dollar plus two dollars 203 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 4: equals three dollars, and that's how money works. And really 204 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 4: it's actually about behaviors and thoughts and feelings and the 205 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 4: transactions that those dollars create. That's what money is about. 206 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 4: I just think so many times we just think about 207 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 4: the actual coins or the actual notes, and that's actually 208 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 4: not what money is. In our society, it drives so 209 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 4: many different things. And we know, or I know deeply 210 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 4: that you are so wildly passionate about the brain and 211 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 4: psychology and behavioral change, and you mentioned it just before, 212 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 4: so I want to know, like, how do we change 213 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 4: our habits? How do we actually do this because so 214 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 4: many of us find it so hard? 215 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: Why? 216 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, well, you know, I think that's such an 217 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 5: important question, not just in you know, our area of 218 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 5: financial health, but of course health overall, right, and preventive health. 219 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 5: Behavior change is a holy grail of preventive health. And 220 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 5: the thing about behavior change is that. 221 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 6: It's definitely possible, but it's not easy. It doesn't happen naturally. 222 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 5: So our brains are designed to conserve energy and create 223 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 5: routines so that we're not constantly making unnecessary decisions, right, 224 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 5: and that means our brains are designed to go on autopilot. 225 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 5: So that's what habits are, things that we do without 226 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 5: thinking too much about them, and that is not our fault. 227 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 5: It's literally how our brains are designed and have evolved. 228 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 5: But most of us do have habits that we've developed from. 229 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 6: The past that are on autopilot. 230 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 5: And they may have been shaped over years or decades, 231 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 5: but they may no longer be helpful to us and 232 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 5: we can't really see that. And every habit that we 233 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 5: have is a habit we have in real life. 234 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 6: It happens to. 235 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 5: Be that we spend money on this habit, but you know, 236 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 5: it's a habit that is in the context of our lives, 237 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 5: like you know, whether it's takeaway or taking uber or 238 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 5: online shopping. You know, every habit that we have typically 239 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 5: adds up to hundreds or thousands, or even ten thousands 240 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 5: in the course of a year. So for example, like 241 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 5: a very common habit like to lattes a day adds 242 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 5: up to over three thousand dollars a year, or one 243 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 5: hundred dollars of takeaway a week adds up to over 244 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 5: five thousand dollars a year, and very easily online shopping 245 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 5: habits might add up to fifteen thousand dollars a year. Right, So, 246 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 5: a couple of small habitual behaviors that are on autopilot 247 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 5: that are mostly hidden to us because they're designed that 248 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 5: way by our brains is actually the difference between having 249 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 5: a healthy buffer and low stress and having a lot 250 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 5: of financial stress and maybe feeling overwhelmed. So I think 251 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 5: the first starting point is understanding that established habits we 252 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 5: have are not our. 253 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 6: Fault, right, that's how our brains design them. 254 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 5: But if we want to see more clearly what those 255 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 5: habits are and then change them, we have to go 256 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 5: through a deliberate behavior change process. And behavior change is 257 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 5: not impossible, as I said in Thinking, but it's not 258 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 5: easy because we can do it when we're supported, and 259 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 5: we do it using the right methodology, which is working 260 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 5: with how the brain likes to change. 261 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 6: So we have established. 262 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 5: Neural pathways, and we have habitual thoughts and emotional responses 263 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 5: that are mostly unseen to us, and we can start 264 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 5: building new alternative neural pathways and changing our automatic thoughts 265 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 5: and emotions. If we start working with a brain in 266 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 5: the right way. We have to go through a process 267 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 5: of frequent but enjoyable practice, you know, build a new 268 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 5: neural pathway that ends in the right kind of dopamine hit. 269 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 5: And that's what we've been working on, and that's something 270 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 5: that technology can actually help with in order to give 271 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 5: you that easy practice on a daily basis or frequent 272 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 5: basis that makes behavior change much easier. So I think 273 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 5: the overall point is just it's not going to happen naturally. 274 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 5: You know, we're not designed to to change our behavior naturally. 275 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 6: But can it be done. Absolutely, it can be. 276 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 4: You mentioned before, like their habits that were formed that 277 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 4: might not be serving us anymore. And I feel like 278 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 4: in our community, something that we're all really good at. 279 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 4: We don't want to admit this though, but we're really 280 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 4: good at is kind of crucifying ourselves for the habits 281 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 4: that we have. We're like, oh, my gosh, I'm so silly, 282 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 4: or I'm so dumb, or I cannot believe I did this. 283 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: Oh it's the worst, and we bury our heads in 284 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: the sand. 285 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 4: And I say that in a way that isn't me 286 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 4: going this is what my community does, Like I do 287 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 4: it too. I feel like it's innately human to always 288 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 4: crucify past us for decisions we made when we didn't 289 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 4: have the tools in resources available to us to make 290 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 4: the decision that we would have today. But from your perspective, like, 291 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 4: you're literally a doctor in this space. You are one 292 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 4: of the smartest women I have ever met. Talk to 293 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 4: me about how important it is to have a level 294 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 4: of self compassion for yourself, and like, how do we 295 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 4: know when to be tough but also when to be 296 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 4: really cl mind to ourselves, because I think that we're 297 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 4: really bad at doing that sometimes, just as the human race, 298 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 4: like not even just as women or just as you know, 299 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 4: the shoes on the money community. I feel like each 300 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 4: and every single person crucifies themselves for past mistakes. 301 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 6: Oh my god, we do, we do. 302 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 5: I think it's a very human thing to do to 303 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 5: be tough in ourselves, and especially it makes sense in 304 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 5: light of what we're talking about earlier, how we feel 305 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 5: like we're responsible for everything that's happened. 306 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 6: You know, even if that's not true. 307 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 5: You know, we are not the architects of evolution and 308 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 5: how our brain was built, Nor did we choose our 309 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 5: families of origin and our upbringings and you know, our 310 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 5: education systems or the way the system is shaped, like, 311 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 5: we're actually not responsible in that way. And yet we 312 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 5: have this notion that, Okay, you know, I feel like 313 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 5: I need to be tough on myself. I want to 314 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 5: get better at something, so I can't afford to be 315 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 5: self compassionate. If I'm nice to myself, then I'm being 316 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 5: self indulgent, I'm being lazy, you know. And we feel 317 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 5: like being tough on yourself, you know, that's what discipline's about. 318 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 5: You know, I need to be disciplined, I need to 319 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 5: be tough on myself. But actually it's another one of 320 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 5: these misunderstandings because we mistake discipline with self criticism. They 321 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 5: are actually not the same thing at all. All the 322 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 5: research on behavior change tells us that being self critical 323 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 5: actually is detrimental to improving. It does not help you 324 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 5: be disciplined and get better. The most helpful forms of 325 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 5: discipline actually involve kindness and self compassion and positive reinforcement. 326 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 5: So it's interesting because when it comes to money, you know. 327 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 6: We talked about it, how is taboo? 328 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 5: It's misunderstood we feel responsible and there's all these kind 329 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 5: of you know, misconceptions about it and we feel like 330 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 5: it's our fault, but it's actually really important to start 331 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 5: with self compassion and start with making emotionally safe space 332 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 5: for yourself to honestly acknowledge possible shortcomings. 333 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 6: But without worrying too much about judgment. 334 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 5: Because that emotional safe space we give ourselves is what 335 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 5: starts the courage to make changes and one of the 336 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 5: key things for me to understand, you know, and I'm 337 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 5: very much with you, and I think this is not 338 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 5: just something that applies to women, though it's certainly been 339 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 5: well documented as something that applies to women, but also 340 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 5: to men too, which is like negative self talk, right, 341 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 5: It's just sort of runs in your brain and there's 342 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 5: all this negative self talk sometimes that you don't even 343 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 5: realize is there. But the specific language we use in 344 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 5: our self talk makes a huge difference. 345 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 6: Right. 346 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 5: If my self talk when I'm stressed about money is oh, 347 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 5: I'm just so irresponsible, or like, oh god, I'm hopeless 348 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 5: with money, I'm such an idiot, you know that language 349 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 5: that's a focus on the self rather than a focus 350 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 5: on behavior. A focus on behavior is something really specific 351 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 5: about a specific behavior. It's like, you know, I bought 352 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 5: around when I didn't need to last night. I bought 353 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 5: the suit to feel more confident at work, but I'm 354 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 5: not sure it's helped me. I still feel funny at work. 355 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 5: And that's a focus on behavior. 356 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 6: Right. 357 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 5: We can have the same action, right, which is like, 358 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 5: oh I overspent and I'm feeling bad. 359 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 6: But what's my self talk? 360 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 5: Is it focusing on myself in a negative way or 361 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 5: is it just focusing on the behavior. Because one focusing 362 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 5: on behavior is actually helpful for behavior change and makes 363 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 5: sense for you know, quote unquote discipline and being tough 364 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 5: on yourself in a positive way, versus the self talk 365 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 5: that focused on the self is not helpful for behavior change, 366 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 5: and it actually gets in the way of discipline and 367 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 5: being tougher on self and improving. So self talk is 368 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 5: super important and self love and compassion is a starting 369 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 5: point for change. 370 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 4: It makes us so much sense because saying something like 371 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 4: oh my gosh, the worst, like that's not constructive. It 372 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 4: doesn't actually create this ability to you know, find a 373 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 4: different behavior. Right, you just got I'm the worst, full 374 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 4: stop end of story, Like what are you even talking about? 375 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 4: Whereas if you go this behavior is the worst, you go, 376 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 4: all right, well, what am I going to do? About that, 377 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 4: and I feel like it's that next step and it 378 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 4: just makes sense and so many of us are guilty 379 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 4: for it. And I was having this conversation the other 380 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 4: day Lily with a girlfriend and she's like, yeah, I know, 381 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 4: you keep telling me to do these things because obviously 382 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 4: I'm not just passionate about money on she's on the money. 383 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 4: I'm passionate. When I'm drinking wine on a Saturday night 384 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 4: with my girlfriends. I'm like, oh my gosh, so this 385 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 4: hot tip. They're just like, Victoria. 386 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: Stop. 387 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 4: But I was recommending to a girlfriend who is really 388 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 4: harsh on herself the other day. I was like, why 389 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 4: don't you just journal it out? Like why don't you 390 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 4: write all of these things down, because once you've written 391 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 4: it down, it just kind of stares you in the 392 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 4: face and is a lot easier to combat. And she's like, oh, 393 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,239 Speaker 4: but Victoria, journaling is so lame, And I was like, 394 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 4: you need to move away from that, because as much 395 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 4: as I agree like journaling is not for everybody, it 396 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 4: can actually be a really constructive activity to go, you 397 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:09,880 Speaker 4: know what, Pragmatically, I'm just going to write down all 398 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 4: these behaviors that I'm doing that I would like to 399 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 4: reframe or change, because then you can overlay what you've 400 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 4: been saying, Lily and go, well, is that actually about 401 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 4: the behavior or is that about me? Because if it's 402 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 4: about me, that's not helpful and we need to remove 403 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,239 Speaker 4: that from our language. And that's going to give you 404 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 4: the ability to just directly see whether your negative self 405 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 4: talk is a really big part of your narrative or not, 406 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 4: because I think so many of us will go, oh, 407 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 4: I don't have negative self talk until you actually have 408 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 4: it staring at you on a piece of paper in 409 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 4: front of you. Sometimes you just don't even realize, and 410 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 4: it can be so detrimental. I promise the second you 411 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 4: realize that you are being negative towards yourself and can 412 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 4: reframe that or rephrase the way that you communicate with yourself, 413 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 4: you become such a happier human. And it makes me 414 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 4: so happy to know that I get to share you 415 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 4: and all of your hot tips with our community, Like 416 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 4: it makes my soul so excited that these are the 417 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 4: conversations we're having. 418 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 5: Me too, Me too, And I just want to say 419 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 5: to everybody that it's not our fault and this stuff 420 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 5: doesn't come naturally. We don't just naturally you know know 421 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 5: what we're thinking. We don't naturally journal, we don't naturally 422 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 5: know our own psychology. It's not something we can expect 423 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 5: of ourselves. I guess it's not like another failing that 424 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 5: I haven't already done this, you know, self compassion is 425 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 5: realizing like, Okay, this is how our brains are built 426 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 5: and this is what's underlying our behavior. 427 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 6: But you know, what can we do about it? And 428 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 6: can we seek some active help? 429 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 5: And you know that's why we've kind of been doing 430 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 5: the work that we've done in building wiser today. But 431 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 5: it's so important to start with not expecting too much 432 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 5: of yourself. 433 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: I could not agree more. 434 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 4: All right, we do have to go to a really 435 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 4: quick break, but on the other side of the break, 436 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 4: I'm going to be talking to Lily about how we 437 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 4: actually create meaningful change. So don't go anywhere, guys. All right, Lily, 438 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 4: we are back, and I am so excited. We are 439 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 4: talking about everything when it comes to decision making and 440 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 4: behavioral economics, and we're talking about psychology and savings, and 441 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 4: we're talking about whyser today and what you do with 442 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 4: your work every single day. I would argue that you're 443 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 4: justice equally passionate, if not more passionate than I am, 444 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 4: about financial literacy and creating meaningful change. And I guess 445 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 4: that's where I really want to kick the conversation off again. 446 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 4: And if anyone in our community is listening and really 447 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 4: resonating with the sense of I guess disconnect between actions 448 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 4: and intent? 449 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: Can you give us some top tips on what. 450 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 4: Might get them to start creating meaningful change in their lives. 451 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know you mentioned this gap between intention and action, 452 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 5: and first of all, everyone that has a human brain 453 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 5: has a gap between intention and action. So we've got 454 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 5: to normalize it. You know, it's not like the minute 455 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 5: we think we want to do something, we can just 456 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 5: do it. So we talked earlier about how it's not 457 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 5: our fault that we have the habits and established our 458 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 5: pathways that we do. 459 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 6: We were not taught to manage this school, not to 460 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 6: mention the. 461 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 5: Brain naturally evolved to make habits hard to see, and 462 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:06,959 Speaker 5: you know, people tend to see it as a personal 463 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 5: failure that they can't change on helpful habits or patterns 464 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 5: of behavior, Like, Oh, I tried before, but you know 465 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 5: I didn't succeed, so I didn't trust myself to do 466 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 5: it in this area or any other area of my life, 467 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 5: and it's super common for the brain to engage in 468 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 5: black and white thinking like, oh, you know, I made 469 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 5: a mistake or I fell off the wagon, so I 470 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 5: might as well give up. But in reality, you know, 471 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 5: if we want to change anything in our lives, we can, 472 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 5: But change is not linear because you have to work 473 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 5: with the brain and understand how the brain changes. So, 474 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 5: for example, existing habits they serve a helpful function, and 475 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 5: usually we actually have to understand the deeper need that 476 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 5: current habits are fulfilling, like am I buying all these 477 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 5: new clothes or going to the bars a lot because 478 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 5: it gives me a sense of belonging or respect or 479 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 5: is it comfort? The deeper behind our habits will help 480 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 5: us realize what is it that we need to solve for, 481 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 5: and now we can start changing how we solve for 482 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 5: those needs with possibly healthier habits, but in a way 483 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 5: that doesn't ask too much of our brains. So it's 484 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 5: helpful to do a little bite sized bit of change 485 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 5: at a time. We all know that if we try 486 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 5: to crash diet or change all of our spending behavior, 487 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 5: make big changes really quickly in two weeks, it won't work. 488 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 5: We want fast results, but that's not how the brand changes. 489 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: It's crazy, isn't it. 490 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 4: We talk about this a lot in Sheese on the Money, 491 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 4: and I think I've spoken about it on the podcast 492 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 4: before because I also am obsessed with psychology, Like it's 493 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 4: not an accident that I also studied it. 494 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: But I think the. 495 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 4: Thing that we forget, and I think you and I 496 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 4: were talking about this literally more than a year ago, 497 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 4: people forget that as humans as much as it's twenty 498 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 4: twenty two and we have corporate jobs and like we 499 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 4: literally can create the life we. 500 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: Want to create innately. 501 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 4: We are individuals who have survival mode still turned on, 502 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 4: and survival mode really leans towards being comfortable because comfort 503 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 4: is equal to safety. And if comfort is equal to safety, 504 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 4: why would we move away from those habits where we 505 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 4: are so deeply connected to being able to be safe 506 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 4: and safe is literally all our body wants. So it 507 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 4: makes sense that's why change is so uncomfortable, because your 508 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 4: body goes through a level of trauma to change it 509 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 4: because you're literally like, oh my gosh, I'm not safe anymore, 510 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 4: and I'm actually a human that needs to be safe, 511 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 4: like go back to cave man area, like leave the cave. 512 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 4: Feel a little bit anxious, of course, because there are 513 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 4: risks out there, and I just think that we forget 514 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 4: that so deeply because we're so disconnected from that. And 515 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 4: that's why behavioral change is so hard to make, because 516 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 4: we're not meant to make changes if it keeps us alive. 517 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 6: Right totally. 518 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 5: You know, our habits have evolved for a reason, but 519 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 5: that doesn't mean that those reasons continue to serve us. 520 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 5: So we can work on one habit at a time 521 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 5: if we want to change, rather than try to change 522 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 5: the whole constellation of all our money habits. We can 523 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 5: you know, practice small little changes that intentionally then results 524 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 5: in a dopamine hit and build a positive reinforcement loop 525 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 5: for your brain. And that's what wiser Today's about. And 526 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,199 Speaker 5: it's really important to make non linear progress because it 527 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 5: just isn't like, oh, I'm going to get on this 528 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 5: wagon of change and then everything is just going to 529 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 5: go easy. Change that is effective and sustainable is not linear, 530 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 5: So it's totally okay to fall off the wagon and 531 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,679 Speaker 5: then get back on when you're ready. That's actually a 532 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 5: natural part of how the brain wants to change, and 533 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 5: so you can retrain your brain and behavior over time. 534 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 5: And the key to that is you have to feel 535 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 5: good along the way. Right, A lot of people think, oh, 536 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 5: what about deprivation. Am I going to have to change 537 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 5: and give up what I really care about? Well, no, 538 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 5: that's not going to drive sustainable change. Behavior change succeeds 539 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 5: if you're feeling good along the way. If you let 540 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 5: go of the guilt, you normalize the gap between intention 541 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 5: and action, and you use science and get science based 542 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 5: guidance that helps you to start closing this gap between 543 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 5: intention and action, but in a much easier kind of small, 544 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 5: bite sized daily way. And I think learning over time 545 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 5: about psychology and you know, going back to your journaling example, 546 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 5: whatever method it is, discovering over time and having the 547 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 5: guidance to do that. 548 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 6: What our thoughts are, just actually see what they are. 549 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 5: Realize what thoughts are running around in our heads that 550 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 5: might be leading to inaction or actions that are not 551 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 5: aligned with what we really want. 552 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 6: You know. 553 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 5: Maybe it's a lack of self efficacy, like our lack 554 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 5: of a belief and our own ability to achieve our 555 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 5: goals or change, you know, or it's underlying beliefs and 556 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 5: attitudes about the behavior we're trying to change. 557 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 6: Like sometimes we say, for. 558 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 5: Example, oh, we want to save more money, right, But 559 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 5: if we dig into it, how we truly are thinking 560 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 5: about saving money, it might be associated with feelings of deprivation, 561 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 5: like I don't want to be deprived. 562 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 4: No one wants to be deprived. One out of ten 563 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 4: cannot recommend exactly. 564 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 5: But if I'm saying that, right, if I'm saying that 565 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 5: to myself, that saving is deprivation, that's the immediate thought 566 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 5: that comes up, then you know what's that about? 567 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 6: And is that the helpful thought? 568 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 5: And we might have a story likewise that says, Okay, 569 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 5: it's probably not that big of a deal if we 570 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 5: don't have an emergency fund, like maybe it's something to 571 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 5: do you when you're older. You know, whatever that story is, 572 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 5: those underlying beliefs and attitudes, it's really beneath a surface 573 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 5: and it's hard to see, but it might be what's 574 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 5: really driving our behavior. So I think there's a lot 575 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 5: of reasons why there's a very normal. 576 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 6: Gap between intention and action. It's very normal. We all 577 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 6: have it. 578 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,479 Speaker 5: We shouldn't blame ourselves for it, but we can do 579 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 5: something about it. 580 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 4: So talk to me a little bit about why financial 581 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 4: health specifically is so important. I mean you touched on 582 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 4: it before. We were talking about I guess behavioral based guidance, 583 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 4: and we're talking about, you know, the science behind it 584 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 4: is I guess money. 585 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,239 Speaker 1: The answer? Is more money the answer? Or is it 586 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: something else? 587 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 5: Like? 588 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 4: What is driving that? Why should financial health be made 589 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 4: a priority? 590 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 5: Oh? Such a good question, you know, I feel like 591 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 5: it's so misunderstood. Financial health is important because money is 592 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 5: just a resource, like health, energy, and time. It's a 593 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 5: resource we have to earn and conserve and use. And 594 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 5: how well we deal with this resource just has a 595 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 5: huge impact in our lives. Right, we can't escape it. 596 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 5: It has a huge impact on our well being, in 597 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 5: our sense of self because more money is not the answer, 598 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 5: because money itself is not the answer. 599 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 6: Because even people who are. 600 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 5: Rich still have to deal with this, right, they still 601 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:51,479 Speaker 5: have to deal with the problem of how to use 602 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 5: and manage this resource. 603 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 6: The issues don't go away. 604 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 5: Financial health just is something that is a part of 605 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 5: health and life. And we see that in wealthy, dysfunctional families. 606 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 5: We see it in lottery winners. You know, it's well 607 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 5: established research that shows that a lot of lottery winners 608 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 5: do not become happier after they win the lottery, and 609 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 5: even the research shows that we don't become happier at 610 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 5: a population level above a certain threshold of income, which 611 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 5: isn't even that high. 612 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 4: It's really not And I think it's so surprising as well, 613 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 4: because in Australia nowadays, and don't quote me on these statistics, 614 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 4: you're the one coming to the table today with stats, 615 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 4: but the average Australian income is now setting it around 616 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 4: eighty to eighty two ish thousand dollars, and that actually 617 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 4: is the amount of money where happiness doesn't start increasing 618 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 4: anymore after you reach that. So it's literally you earn 619 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 4: the average amount and you aren't going to get happier 620 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 4: the more you earn. It blows my mind, and I 621 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 4: think that that has something to do with going back 622 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 4: to our conversation about safety and security, because that's the 623 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 4: amount of money that puts food on your table and 624 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 4: makes sure all of your bills are come of it 625 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 4: and you're not deprived in any way. So anything above 626 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 4: and beyond that is great, it's special, but it's not 627 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 4: going to contribute to your underlying happiness, and I think 628 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 4: that so many of us have been tricked, especially in 629 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 4: such a commercial world now that more money is going 630 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 4: to equal more happiness because obviously bags and shoes and 631 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 4: all of these other things that are material somehow impact 632 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 4: our mental health and they really don't. 633 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 6: Ah, so true, so true. 634 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 5: You know, we talked about how looking rich is an 635 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 5: implicit norm, like it's better if you look rich, but 636 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 5: that's not true from a real happiness level, right, research 637 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 5: shows not true. 638 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: No, that's not sexy. 639 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 4: We've talked about this before, and it's just like this 640 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 4: idea of seeing somebody wearing all the expensive clothes and 641 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 4: wearing all the expensive jewelry. 642 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: It baffles me. 643 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 4: Right that I saw this on social media the other 644 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 4: day and I kind of had a little laugh to myself. 645 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 4: Somebody posted that they've got a new car, so like 646 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 4: they'd posted this picture of their brand new car and 647 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 4: it had this big red bow on it, and I 648 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 4: was like, Wow, we're celebrating getting into debt because there's 649 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 4: absolutely no way that that car was not financed from 650 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 4: that individual. 651 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:14,719 Speaker 1: I just knew it. 652 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 4: And we're celebrating taking on finance. But nobody ever posts 653 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 4: when they make their first investment or they are taking 654 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 4: that next step, or they're making additional suprannuation contributions because 655 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 4: that's not seen as sexy. But we're literally celebrating somebody 656 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 4: going into debt, like everyone's commenting, oh my god, congrats, 657 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 4: well done, girlfriend, You've done so well, like wow, this 658 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 4: is amazing, and I'm like, wait, what, Like we're celebrating that, 659 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 4: but no one's going to jump up and down about 660 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 4: the wealth creation side of things that is actually going 661 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 4: to create not only financial security. 662 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: But mental health. 663 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 4: Like every other kind of security that exists is going 664 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 4: to stem from some level of financial stability. And it 665 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,959 Speaker 4: blew my mind and it reminds me of that idea 666 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 4: that fake rich now real poor later, which we say 667 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 4: a lot on the podcast, But wealth is kind of secret. 668 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 4: Rich is shiny and visible and it is not actually wealth. 669 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: Wealth is private. Wealth is secret. 670 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 4: Wealth is quiet, and I think that there's something really 671 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 4: sexy about it. 672 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, Spending is visible, but saving is invisible exactly. 673 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 4: Like if you're spending and you're thinking that these material 674 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 4: items are what brings value, like, it just is so 675 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 4: backwards to me. 676 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,879 Speaker 1: It is so backwards, it really is. 677 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 6: But you know, I think financial health because. 678 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 5: Money is so misunderstood because we're looking at all the 679 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 5: wrong things and we don't understand that financial health is 680 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 5: actually about our psychology and our personal values and healthy 681 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 5: habits in psychology. It's so integral to our lives. But 682 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 5: it's like the entire financial industry isn't designing for that yet, right. 683 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 5: I'd love to see the whole industry pivot and take 684 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,720 Speaker 5: it seriously, why don't we design products and services actually 685 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 5: help people with financial health rather than go down a 686 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 5: path of thinking, oh, you know, money is just about 687 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 5: dollars and cents, and we're going to put all this 688 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 5: innovation effort into an extra percent on a financial product 689 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 5: or digitize some process so you can buy a financial 690 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 5: product faster. 691 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: Because that's not where the money is. 692 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 4: Lily, you and I both know that, and I mean 693 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 4: you're so wildly passionate about it. You've been working on 694 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 4: Weiser today literally for years. But I guess you and 695 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 4: I both know that as much as you're wildly passionate 696 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 4: about this, and this is going to have honestly such 697 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 4: a big change not only to our community but Australia wide. 698 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 4: But in not doing it, because it's driving profit, like 699 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 4: it is definitely hopefully going to be profitable, because it's 700 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 4: like a business at the end of the day, and 701 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 4: the more profitable a business is, the more impact it 702 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 4: can have. However, like I think that you guys have 703 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 4: a very different view of what success means, and your 704 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 4: idea of success from my perspective, has never about the 705 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 4: dollars on your balance sheet, and something I super respect 706 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 4: about you guys, because it's just every other financial institution 707 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 4: is about that extra percent. 708 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:09,399 Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? 709 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 5: I do, But I think that that's just because people 710 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 5: think that, you know, the current financial products are the 711 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 5: ones that make money, whereas I think that people care 712 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 5: about financial health. We care about money in the context 713 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 5: of our real lives, and if we're able to come 714 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 5: up with the actually genuinely helpful products and services that 715 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 5: that will be sustainable because people will want it. So 716 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 5: I guess I feel like it's a win win. But 717 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 5: I think it's our job to lift the money taboo 718 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 5: and to move financial health into the light because it is. 719 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:44,240 Speaker 6: Important for everybody. 720 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 5: There shouldn't be shame around it, and we can use 721 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 5: technology and science and everything that we are starting to 722 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 5: learn about the brain and proven interventions around behavior change 723 00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 5: to really build completely different things. I can imagine a 724 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 5: really different future for money. How we talk about in 725 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 5: our culture, the products and services that we have on offer. 726 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 5: I think today's just you know, we're just getting started 727 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 5: on that. And think about how much the conversation around 728 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 5: mental health has moved into the light since COVID. You know, 729 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 5: things can change quickly, and I think we can start 730 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 5: lifting the money taboo. And that's why this community is 731 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,919 Speaker 5: so important and the work that you do has such 732 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 5: an impact on people's lives. 733 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:36,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, I honestly could not agree more Lily, and honestly, unfortunately, 734 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 4: that is all we have time for today. But before 735 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 4: we go, I want to know our community has arguably 736 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,800 Speaker 4: fallen in love with you after having this conversation, because 737 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,399 Speaker 4: I know I'm obsessed with you. Where can we go 738 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 4: to learn more about you and more about Wiser today? 739 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 5: You can go on the Wiser website. You can also 740 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 5: find me on LinkedIn, and of course I'm part of 741 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 5: the She's on the Money community and face buck love 742 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 5: it so much. 743 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 6: Gives me inspiration every week. 744 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 4: You actually are, which is my favorite. 745 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 1: I adore it. 746 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 4: The Lily is definitely part of the community, but hit 747 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 4: her up if you want to have a chat on 748 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 4: LinkedIn or she writes heaps of articles and is always 749 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 4: contributing on the Wiser website. 750 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: You can search her up. 751 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 4: You can search Wiser Today up and check it all 752 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 4: out because honestly, their work is incredible and I adore you. 753 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 4: Thank you for joining us today, Lily, it has as 754 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 4: always been such a pleasure. 755 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 6: Likewise, thank you so much. 756 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 5: Love this community, love your work more power. 757 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 4: You are so kind and guys, we would love it 758 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 4: if you joined our Facebook group, where our community shares 759 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 4: money tips and tricks every single day, free of judgment. 760 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 4: Search She's on the Money on Facebook and join us. 761 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 4: If Facebook's not your thing, you can find us on Instagram. 762 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: She's on the Money. 763 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 4: AUS did buy shared on She's on the Money is 764 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 4: general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. 765 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 4: She's on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and 766 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 4: should not be relied upon to make an investment or 767 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 4: financial decision. If you do choose to buy a financial product, 768 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 4: read the PDS TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored 769 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 4: towards your needs. Victoria divine and She's on the money 770 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 4: are authorized representatives of money Sherpa pty Ltd ABN three 771 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,359 Speaker 4: two one six four nine two seven seven zero eight 772 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 4: AFSL four five one two eight nine