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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Family's podcast with doctor Justin Coulson.

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Speaker 1: We are Luke and Suzie and this is the podcast

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Speaker 1: for time poor parents who just want answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, if you have not heard of Fortnite, you are

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Speaker 2: a very fortunate person.

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Speaker 1: We're not talking about the every second week, that two

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Speaker 1: week period.

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Speaker 2: Now, it's an online game, and it seems in the

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Speaker 2: world of my children and many other children, everyone is

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Speaker 2: playing it.

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Speaker 1: And there's been a little bit of awkward, sort of

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Speaker 1: challenging moments in our parenting and for our nine year

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Speaker 1: old all surrounding this game of Fortnite and how brutal

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Speaker 1: daddy has been to say, I'm sorry, you can't play this.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Justin Coilson, Happy families dot Com. Today, you joining

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Speaker 2: us in the studio. Fortnite is everywhere, Justin.

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Speaker 3: I get so many emails, so many requests, so many

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Speaker 3: please what do I do about Fortnite?

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Speaker 4: Parents are stressing out about it.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of like, you know, when we were kids,

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Speaker 3: yo yo's were everything.

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Speaker 2: Marvel's occasionally got banned a.

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Speaker 3: Marbles, yeah, because we were so compelled, we were so

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Speaker 3: we were addicted to it. I remember I was don't

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Speaker 3: you bring that yo yo into the house because you

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Speaker 3: break things, right, you hit your sister in the head

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Speaker 3: with it as you're trying to do.

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Speaker 4: Around the world. Now it's Fortnite.

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Speaker 3: It's a different world, obviously, And Fortnite is the game

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Speaker 3: that has captured the hearts and minds of our young

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Speaker 3: boys and young men and even some girls and some

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Speaker 3: grown ups as well.

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Speaker 1: And can I say that, no matter what your opinion

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Speaker 1: of the game is, what intelligent business from the game

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Speaker 1: makers and how they put it all together to make money,

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Speaker 1: like and incredibly so with all the dance moves and

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Speaker 1: all the fun that they put into it and all

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Speaker 1: the gore they've pulled out of it, but it's still

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Speaker 1: left as a first person shooter game targeted and children.

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Speaker 3: Well, the age advisory is twelve enough, so let's be

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Speaker 3: clear about that. And I have to be really direct,

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Speaker 3: and I hope that I say this with appropriate sensitivity. Parents,

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Speaker 3: you've got to stop letting your kids do stuff before

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Speaker 3: they're old enough. You know, it's an age advisory of

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Speaker 3: twelve plus because it's a first person.

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Speaker 4: Shooter game, it's violent.

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Speaker 3: And what happens is I get all these parents saying

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Speaker 3: to me, but I've got a nine year old or

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Speaker 3: I've got an eleven year old or an eight year old.

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Speaker 3: And in fact, I got one mom email with the

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Speaker 3: other day and she said, my six year old has

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Speaker 3: been invited to a Fortnight party.

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Speaker 4: These kids are six.

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Speaker 3: It's not good for our kids to be playing first

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Speaker 3: person shooter games, even without the gore, because they've taken.

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Speaker 4: The gore out.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but it's still violent. You're lighting someone up and

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Speaker 3: you're shooting them. It's not in their best interest for

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Speaker 3: us to be letting them play this.

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Speaker 1: So I probably need to at this point. For any

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Speaker 1: adult who hasn't played these sorts of games, first person

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Speaker 1: shooter literally means your character, the person you're controlling, has

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Speaker 1: a gun and is shooting other.

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Speaker 3: Right, So when you look at the screen, you can

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Speaker 3: see your gun and you aim your gun at the

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Speaker 3: other characters.

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Speaker 2: And because it's online online, that's often people you know

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Speaker 2: from school or from well.

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Speaker 3: You can have your mates playing in the same game

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Speaker 3: as you. You know you're having the same battle. Look.

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Speaker 3: The way Fortnite works for those who are uninitiated is

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Speaker 3: it's kind of like the Hunger Games and Minecraft combined.

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Speaker 3: So you've got one hundred people in the game. And

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Speaker 3: while you're trying to build fortifications and trying to participate

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Speaker 3: in whatever actions you deem necessary for your fortniting, what

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Speaker 3: you also want to do is you want to destroy

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Speaker 3: everyone who's trying.

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Speaker 4: To kill you.

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Speaker 2: So you kind of get I can see why it

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Speaker 2: would be a popular game, I guess I don't see

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Speaker 2: why my children are watching YouTube videos where I can

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Speaker 2: see a five year old playing the game.

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Speaker 4: Right, and they're not just watching it on YouTube.

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Speaker 3: Twitch is the twitch is the site where you go

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Speaker 3: to watch people doing all of this stuff now and

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Speaker 3: I I read it a number just the other day

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Speaker 3: on Twitch they reckon. In the last two weeks, more

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Speaker 3: than five thousand human years have been spent watching gameplay

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Speaker 3: on a Fortnite. Wow, in two weeks, there's been five

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Speaker 3: thousand years of Fortnite watching.

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Speaker 2: That's watching, not playing, that's watching.

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Speaker 1: We've got a nine year old who every single friend

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Speaker 1: in his world is playing Fortnite. And how do you

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Speaker 1: explain to a nine year old why we see the

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Speaker 1: world so totally different from everybody else he knows, and

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Speaker 1: that we say he can't play a lot of pressure

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Speaker 1: on us to conform to what everybody else is doing.

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Speaker 1: How do we respond to whether they should play this

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Speaker 1: or not, or how do we explain it to them?

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Speaker 3: So look, before I ask that question, let me be

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Speaker 3: really clear. This isn't just about Fortnite. This is about

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Speaker 3: your ten year old that wants to be on Instagram,

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Speaker 3: or your twelve year old that wants to be on Snapchat,

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Speaker 3: or your fourteen year old who wants to be on

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Speaker 3: kick And you know, there's all of these platforms with

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Speaker 3: all of these age advisories, and as parents, we need

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Speaker 3: to be across that. And when they say to us,

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Speaker 3: but I'm the only one in the school who's not

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Speaker 3: doing it, we feel torn. There's a terrible tension. There's

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Speaker 3: this friction. Our children feel like we're causing them to

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Speaker 3: be social outcasts. And it's a really really challenging thing.

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Speaker 3: A couple of things that we need to be aware of.

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Speaker 3: First of all, your child is probably not the only one,

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Speaker 3: So work.

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Speaker 4: With other parents. You know, talk to other parents, be

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Speaker 4: part of a community.

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Speaker 3: It takes a village to raise a child, so be

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Speaker 3: involved with them and make sure that there are other kids.

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Speaker 3: That's probably not going to make them feel any but

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Speaker 3: because they still want it. The next thing I'd say

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Speaker 3: is make sure they've got other stuff in their lives.

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Speaker 3: You know, if they've got their sport, or they've got

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Speaker 3: their music, or they've got their art.

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Speaker 4: We want to be giving them a full life.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not suggesting, by the way, that they should

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Speaker 3: have zero screens or zero screen time.

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Speaker 4: They should still be able to do some stuff on

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Speaker 4: their screens.

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Speaker 3: And perhaps they'll have some other friends who will pull

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Speaker 3: themselves away from Fortnite because they are only nine and

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Speaker 3: play with them doing some other stuff. Or you know,

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Speaker 3: here's a wild idea. As parents, perhaps we can involve

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Speaker 3: ourselves in their lives a little more. Come on, now,

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Speaker 3: I know we're busy. I know there's emails to write.

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Speaker 3: I know there's dinners to cook and baths to run

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Speaker 3: and all that sort of stuff. But can we just

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Speaker 3: be a bit more involved. I know that in my

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Speaker 3: home and certainly in the lives of many other families

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Speaker 3: with whom I've worked, just that one thing. You know,

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Speaker 3: Let's pull out the Uno cards. Let's go a bit

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Speaker 3: old school. Let's play some Phase ten or some skip

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Speaker 3: Bow or Monopoly or you know those Monopoly deal cards.

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Speaker 3: I mean, these are fun games, and if we can

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Speaker 3: distract the kids give them a full and balanced life

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Speaker 3: and actually have a relationship with them ourselves things like Fortnite. Yes,

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Speaker 3: it will still hurt, but it won't be as bad.

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Speaker 3: Last quick point, it's worth having the conversation where you

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Speaker 3: actually explain why. It might not really go very far.

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Speaker 3: They might be upset, they might roll their eyes, they

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Speaker 3: might want to argue, but we still need to provide

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Speaker 3: a bit of a rationale and say, look, I'm the parent,

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Speaker 3: this is in your best interest, and here's a couple

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Speaker 3: of reasons why.

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Speaker 1: And when I spoke to the ninety arl, this is

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Speaker 1: where I feel like I kind of got it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: where I went, here's my reasonings, here's what I think.

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Speaker 1: And I know that not everybody else sees it this way.

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Speaker 1: And I said, Tyson, I might get down the track

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Speaker 1: and think I overreacted, but right now I've to make

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Speaker 1: a decision. This is one of those things that we've

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Speaker 1: talked about. Is an adult decision, and I've got to

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Speaker 1: make a decision. And with what I know now, this

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Speaker 1: is what I have to decide. Sound like you've on

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Speaker 1: my books, we've been following some of those steps. And

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Speaker 1: I said, and I know that it looks like your

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Speaker 1: life is missing out because mummy and daddy have these thoughts.

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Speaker 1: But let's let's talk about all the things that are

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Speaker 1: good in your life because mummy and Daddy are different

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Speaker 1: and think and see things differently from some other people.

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Speaker 1: And we talked about all those advantages that we have

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Speaker 1: because of those differences. So it's not he's not just

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Speaker 1: seeing what he's missing out on because of these processes.

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Speaker 1: For mmy daddy and I'm talking about our faith and

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Speaker 1: our values. But let's look at all the things that

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Speaker 1: are included in our life because of that. And he's

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Speaker 1: he's done pretty well. He's been pretty respectful, and he

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Speaker 1: has been strong and resilient in the midst of this.

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Speaker 1: It still doesn't make it any easier for us when

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Speaker 1: we know he's standing on the sidelines when his mates

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Speaker 1: are doing this. So exploring more with doctor Justin Courson,

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Speaker 1: this whole FORTNIGHTE game, why as a first person shooter game,

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Speaker 1: why do we need to be concerned about that? Because

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Speaker 1: I know where I drew the line, I have no

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Speaker 1: psychology training behind me to know whether it's an appropriate line.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so let's go through just a couple of things

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Speaker 3: very briefly. We could talk for hours, but I'm going

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Speaker 3: to keep it really quick with just two or three

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Speaker 3: main points.

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Speaker 4: Number one, it is violent.

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Speaker 3: I don't care if there's no blood spattering everywhere like

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Speaker 3: some of the more violent games that are out there,

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Speaker 3: it's still violent. The first time that I got involved

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Speaker 3: in watching it, watched it and I downloaded it and

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Speaker 3: had a little fiddled with it as well, I just

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Speaker 3: thought to myself, I felt really uncomfortable shooting somebody. Now,

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Speaker 3: I know not everybody feels like that, but let's be real.

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Speaker 3: This is hunger games. This is I have to kill

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Speaker 3: somebody five. It's not real. It's a game, but nevertheless

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Speaker 3: it's got that violent element. From a research point of view,

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Speaker 3: there's still a fair bit of argument out there as

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Speaker 3: to whether violent games cause violent behavior. I think that

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Speaker 3: what we can safely say is that, based on the

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Speaker 3: research evidence, when we have our when we're playing violent games,

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Speaker 3: there is some sort of a relationship between that and

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Speaker 3: our ability to take the perspective of others, to be empathic,

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Speaker 3: to be kind, generous, compassionate, and experimental studies have shown

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Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that everyone's going to turn violent.

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Speaker 4: No, of course not.

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Speaker 3: That's boloney and I'm not trying to say that, but

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Speaker 3: violent video games certainly cause a desensitization to the well

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Speaker 3: being of others, and some people are affected by it

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Speaker 3: more than others, So from the violence point of view,

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Speaker 3: that that's a concern. My other major concern with Fortnite,

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Speaker 3: other than the compulsion to play, which I'll talk about

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Speaker 3: in a sec you know that whole.

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Speaker 4: Is it addictive or not.

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Speaker 3: The other main concern that I have, especially when you've

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Speaker 3: got young kids who are playing, is that there are

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Speaker 3: two chat options. There's a text chat, which is kind

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Speaker 3: of hard. You know, you're playing a game, you're trying

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Speaker 3: to text at the same time. That's not going to happen,

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Speaker 3: although some people do use it.

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Speaker 1: If they're using a computer, then that's right.

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Speaker 4: But then there's also a voice chat option.

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Speaker 3: So you're at the moment, there's somewhere around forty or

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Speaker 3: fifty million people globally that are playing this game, and

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Speaker 3: you can have as you can have as many as

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Speaker 3: three and a half million people. That's their record so far,

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Speaker 3: about three and a half million people playing at any

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Speaker 3: one time, which means that if your kids are in

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Speaker 3: a game with one hundred other people and it's a

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Speaker 3: fight to the death. There's a chance that globally they're

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Speaker 3: going to have a conversation with someone at some point

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Speaker 3: over this chat, this voice chat facility where they're going

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Speaker 3: to be potentially exposed to some explicit themes and you

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Speaker 3: may or may not be comfortable with that.

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Speaker 4: For me, that's a concern.

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Speaker 3: I don't want my twelve year old hearing some forty

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Speaker 3: six year old playing on the other side of the

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Speaker 3: world saying down the road saying f this and carrying

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Speaker 3: on or.

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Speaker 1: Worse or worse. And I think for us, outside of Fortnite,

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Speaker 1: for every game like this, we made a bit of

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Speaker 1: a call that our children cannot play a game where

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Speaker 1: there's chat options if anybody can access their game, if

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Speaker 1: they can restrict it to just the people that we

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Speaker 1: know and we know from school, then if there's any

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Speaker 1: if we can control that, then you then you might

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Speaker 1: be able to play it. If we can't control it,

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Speaker 1: it's absolute blanket. No the thing for the violence for me,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know whether this is a valid line

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Speaker 1: because I looked at it and went technically, there's there's

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Speaker 1: shooting in lots of games that I let my kids play,

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Speaker 1: but I went, if it's a cartoon character with a

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Speaker 1: laser gun with circle lasers in something which is so

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Speaker 1: out of the realm of normal, then I go, I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure about you know, I've been okay with that.

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Speaker 1: But in this game, the line I drew was it's real.

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Speaker 1: It's human characters with real guns shooting other human characters

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Speaker 1: with real guns. And it was not. It was not

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Speaker 1: it was a step away from fantasy. It was closer

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Speaker 1: to reality. And that's where I drew the line. A

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Speaker 1: first person shoot a game with human characters with real

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Speaker 1: life guns, that is there any validity?

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Speaker 3: Like can you can you tell me from a research

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Speaker 3: point of view, I'm not aware of anything that's going

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Speaker 3: to say that this is this is where we draw

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Speaker 3: the line. Look, I have personal feelings that are similar

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Speaker 3: to yours, not exactly the same, but fairly similar. And

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Speaker 3: I know many others who feel like we're right, and

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Speaker 3: many who would say, come on, it's just garbage.

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Speaker 4: At the end of the day, you've got to go

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Speaker 4: with your personal values.

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Speaker 3: The only thing that I can refer back to as

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Speaker 3: the research on violent video games show that there is

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Speaker 3: a decent cetization. There is a lot of empathy and

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Speaker 3: there are some kids who are affected quite badly by it,

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Speaker 3: although they are in the distinct and very small minority.

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Speaker 1: So then there's also another aspect of Fortnite which we

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Speaker 1: need to be aware of his parents and games like

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Speaker 1: it is the money spending. Even though the game itself

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Speaker 1: is free.

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Speaker 3: So kids are spending literally globally. They reckon it's going

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Speaker 3: to make a couple of billion dollars this year. As kids,

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Speaker 3: you know, they're buying their power packs and there.

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Speaker 1: By dance moves. They have to pay you to get

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Speaker 1: extra dance moves.

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Speaker 3: And the other thing that's happening here is, you know,

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Speaker 3: the kids that aren't allowed to play it so often

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Speaker 3: aren't as good, and therefore they're spending more money so

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Speaker 3: that they can keep up with the kids who are

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Speaker 3: playing a lot, who are.

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Speaker 4: Just earning their way through the game.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's this desire to stay with my mates

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Speaker 3: and be able to be there.

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Speaker 1: So here's the secondary challenge that we've got as parents

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Speaker 1: that we've said you can't play this, but if he

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Speaker 1: goes to a mate's place and they play it, are

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Speaker 1: there different rules for playing? But even worse than that,

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Speaker 1: because I can I can say I can draw a

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Speaker 1: line and say no, you still can't pay, no matter

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Speaker 1: where you are. But then he's in a room were

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Speaker 1: all these mates are play, and we've got a question

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Speaker 1: is he allowed to watch somebody else play?

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Speaker 3: This again, is such a tricky one. You know, we

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Speaker 3: dealt with this personally, and I've had many other people say,

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Speaker 3: you know, my sixteen year old son's playing cod Okay,

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Speaker 3: so Call of Duty it's a violent game, or Grand

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Speaker 3: Theft Auto. These are violent games. These are first person

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Speaker 3: violent video games. And you know I've got I've got

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Speaker 3: a fifteen year old and a twelve year old, and

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Speaker 3: the twelve year old wants to play. No, well, the

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Speaker 3: twelve year old still wants to watch, So how do

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Speaker 3: we police that? Or they go over to their mate's

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Speaker 3: place and everyone else is playing, so they're going to

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Speaker 3: be exposed to it anyway. My sense is that I've

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Speaker 3: used this analogy with you previously in a different discussion.

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Speaker 3: We put a fence around our pool to keep our

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Speaker 3: kids from falling in and to keep them safe.

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Speaker 4: But you can't fence the ocean. The ocean is just

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Speaker 4: too big.

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Speaker 3: And so we've got a simple situation where we have

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Speaker 3: to teach our kids to swim.

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Speaker 4: That's challenging.

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Speaker 3: It means that we've got to have ongoing conversations, and

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Speaker 3: we might say to our kids, we'd prefer that you

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Speaker 3: don't play it, or we might say we understand that

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Speaker 3: you're going to want to play it. Our rules in

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Speaker 3: our home at this When you go to your friend's house,

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Speaker 3: if they're playing it, we would prefer that you play

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Speaker 3: something else that you ask if you can do other stuff,

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Speaker 3: if that's not going to happen. If you're going to

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Speaker 3: become a complete social pariah and you're at your friends

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Speaker 3: and that's what they're doing, you're at the party on

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Speaker 3: Friday night, and that's what you're doing. We're not going

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Speaker 3: to be angry at you for joining, and we prefer

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Speaker 3: that you didn't. But we understand the social pool. But

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Speaker 3: when you're at home and when you're on the devices

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Speaker 3: that we own, the answer will always be no until

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Speaker 3: you're twelve, or until we've discussed this further.

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Speaker 4: And so there's only so much that you can do.

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Speaker 3: And with something like Fortnite, I don't think that it's

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Speaker 3: worth destroying your kids' lives over with something like alcohol

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Speaker 3: or cocaine or pornography.

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Speaker 4: I actually think that you draw.

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Speaker 3: A much firmer line. But again, every family is going

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Speaker 3: to different. There are going to be some families who

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Speaker 3: will say we're black and white on this. There is

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Speaker 3: simply you know it's no, and you don't play at

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Speaker 3: your friend's houses until they've gotten over their Fortnite craze,

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Speaker 3: which will happen in nine months from now or something

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Speaker 3: like that. I don't think that's a helpful way to go.

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Speaker 3: I think it just makes the forbidden fruit that much

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Speaker 3: more attractive. And there are some there are some lines

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Speaker 3: that are worth fighting for and others that aren't.

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Speaker 4: For me, this one isn't that big.

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Speaker 2: I had a conversation with Tyson recently on the back

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Speaker 2: of it where I was just saying to him how

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Speaker 2: much we appreciated that he has upheld our rules on this,

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Speaker 2: particularly when he's been at his friend's house and his

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Speaker 2: friend is aware of Tyson's he's not going to play

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Speaker 2: the game, and his friend's mum is aware that he's

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Speaker 2: not going to play the game, and he's not played

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Speaker 2: the game there even though his friend has played it there,

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Speaker 2: And I just was saying to him, I think that's

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Speaker 2: really awesome, and I was saying to him, he wants

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Speaker 2: to be in his mind at the moment, his goal

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Speaker 2: is to be an AFL star. He wants to play

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Speaker 2: professionally this game of AFL. And I said to him,

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Speaker 2: all of those men who you see playing AFL have

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Speaker 2: had to stand up and do things that their friends

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Speaker 2: have had to say no to, things that all their

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Speaker 2: friends were saying yes too, in order to get that

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Speaker 2: good at the game. And it's a life skill to

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Speaker 2: learn to say no when everyone around you is saying yes.

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Speaker 2: And I'm so proud of you that at this age

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Speaker 2: you've already you're already starting to learn to say no

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Speaker 2: when everyone else is saying yes. And he sort of

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Speaker 2: sat a little taller, and he sat a little straighter,

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Speaker 2: and I think he looked a little sharper at that

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Speaker 2: vision of being an AFLIME.

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Speaker 3: That ties in with something that's so important here. And

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Speaker 3: our kids have got to have purpose. And if they

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Speaker 3: understand the reason, if they understand the rationale, and if

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Speaker 3: they've got a bigger purpose to work towards, then then

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Speaker 3: they will make better choices. Whether it's about Fortnite, whether

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Speaker 3: it's about alcohol and other drugs, whether it's about sex

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Speaker 3: and intimacy. No matter what it is, they'll make better

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Speaker 3: choices when they've got that bigger purpose to work towards.

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Speaker 3: And frankly, I think that's a massive failing on the

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Speaker 3: part of our society at the moment that our young

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Speaker 3: people are all too often so lacking in Yes, conversation

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Speaker 3: for another day.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's been extremely helpful, and it's both challenge me

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Speaker 1: in my perspective and my engagement with my children on this,

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Speaker 1: but also, you know, help to kind of feel a

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Speaker 1: bit encouraged that I'm not just a widow. Hey, doctor

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Speaker 1: Justin Gilson, thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: Hey, let me just add one more quick thing, super quick.

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Speaker 3: If you're really really stuck with this and you don't

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Speaker 3: know what to do about it, I'm just going to

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Speaker 3: give you three questions to talk to the kids about. Okay,

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Speaker 3: if they're saying can I can I? Can I play Fortnite?

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Speaker 3: And let's say they are old enough and you're cool

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Speaker 3: with them playing Fortnite? Three quick questions. Number One, has

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Speaker 3: he or she done the stuff that matters most? And

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Speaker 3: I'm talking about you know, I'm talking about chores, I'm

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Speaker 3: talking about homework, you know, all the stuff that is

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Speaker 3: supposed to be done.

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Speaker 4: Have you spent time outside blah blah blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: If all of that's been If the answer is no, oh,

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Speaker 3: and by the way, it has been done properly. You know,

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00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:48,639
Speaker 3: tidy your room has been done properly. If the answer

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Speaker 3: is no, then the answer is no. If the answer

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Speaker 3: is yes, then you can move the question to a

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Speaker 3: question too simple. Is it going to interrupt anything important

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Speaker 3: like dinner with the family, or sleep, or relationships.

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Speaker 4: Or extracurricular activities.

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Speaker 3: If yes, then the answer is no, you can't play

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Speaker 3: right now. If no, than the answer is Let's look

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Speaker 3: at question three, and question three is really simple. Are

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Speaker 3: their clear agreements regarding the amount of time allowed online

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Speaker 3: and or the number of battles that is allowed to play?

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Speaker 4: If the answer is no, then the answers no. If yes,

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Speaker 4: then go for it. Have fun.

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Speaker 3: Have you done the stuff you need to do? Is

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Speaker 3: it going to interrupt anything? Do we have clear limits?

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Speaker 3: If all that's in place, go for it.

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Speaker 2: Very good, I've gotten that all down.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Justin Wilson, Thank you so much.

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Speaker 4: Pleasure.

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Speaker 2: If you enjoy the podcast, please take a moment to

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Speaker 2: rate it on iTunes. When you do that it increases

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Speaker 2: the visibility of the podcast and helps more people to

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Speaker 2: find it. And if you're not a subscriber, jump onto

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00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,040
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts and subscribe so that you can hear every

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00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,240
Speaker 2: episode as soon as it is uploaded. For more information

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Speaker 2: on all of doctor Justin Coilson's books, programs, and podcasts,

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Speaker 2: go to Happy Families dot com dot au. Or if

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Speaker 2: you'd like to have doctor Justin Colson's speak at your

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Speaker 2: school or event, go to Justincolson dot com.