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Speaker 1: Okay, so I really admire Bill Murray. Apparently Bill Murray

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Speaker 1: checks his correspondents once or twice a year only accepts

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Speaker 1: correspondents by handwritten letters. I've thought, hm, that'd be nice,

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Speaker 1: just handwritten letters. I could probably dedicate some time to that.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of

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Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imbach. I'm an

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Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with

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Speaker 2: finding ways to optimize my work day. On today's show,

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Speaker 2: my guest is doctor Jason Fox. I've known Jason for

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Speaker 2: the best part of a decade, and like me, he's

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Speaker 2: a scientist at heart and as a bias for strategies

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Speaker 2: that are grounded in research. So in case you haven't

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Speaker 2: come across Jason, Jason is someone who travels literally all

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Speaker 2: over the world helping leaders from companies such as Microsoft, Salesforce, Donald's,

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Speaker 2: and Toyota in the area of motivation design. Jason is

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Speaker 2: also the best selling author of The Game Changer and

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Speaker 2: How to Lead a Quest, and in twenty sixteen was

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Speaker 2: awarded Keynote Speaker of the year. Now, something I really

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Speaker 2: like about how Jason organizes his working life is that

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Speaker 2: he thinks a lot about regular rhythms and rituals, and

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Speaker 2: in this chat we talk about many of the ones

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Speaker 2: that he's incorporated into his life, from his daily rituals

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Speaker 2: drugh to weekly, monthly, quarterly, and even annual rituals. I

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Speaker 2: think that there's so much great staff to take from

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Speaker 2: this chat. And on that note, let's go over to

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Speaker 2: Jas to hear about how he works. Jace, Welcome to

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Speaker 2: the show. Thank you, very good to be chatting with you.

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Speaker 2: It's always it's always quite delightful doing these interviews when

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Speaker 2: it's someone that you've known for many years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fun.

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Speaker 2: One of my closest friends. So this is exciting.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that I know that you do

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Speaker 2: every year is that you will think about a word

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Speaker 2: that is kind of I'm not going to do it justice,

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Speaker 2: and I almost it's like your it's like your theme

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Speaker 2: song word for the year. And I remember one time

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Speaker 2: one year, this is a few years ago. It was December,

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Speaker 2: and we were out with a group of friends and

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Speaker 2: we were eating pancakes, and your word for the year,

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Speaker 2: I believe was pirate, that's right, and your pancake they

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Speaker 2: got they got the order wrong, and as a pirate,

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Speaker 2: you asserted yourself and you said this is wrong and

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Speaker 2: we got it fixed. Is that right and recorrect?

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Speaker 1: I think what happened was I was like, oh, looks

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Speaker 1: like they're packing up, and I don't want to keep

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Speaker 1: you guys waiting, so I'll just accept this. And I

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Speaker 1: think Shannon, your partner, Shannon asked me, is this what

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Speaker 1: a pirate would do? I was like, oh, yeah, you're right,

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Speaker 1: and so I did then assert myself, which was part

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Speaker 1: of what the word triggers in such moments. So that

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Speaker 1: was handy there. But yeah, this notion of choosing one

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Speaker 1: word is in the direct opposition to the New Year's

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Speaker 1: resolutions or the general the general obsession people have around

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Speaker 1: smart goals around that. From a motivational folklore perspective, the

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Speaker 1: more specific you are, the more concrete measurable it is,

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Speaker 1: the more likely white to succeed. And that is true

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Speaker 1: within stable environments. But if we're thinking about ourselves, our

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Speaker 1: growing and evolving self in all the complexity of a

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Speaker 1: whole year, I find it much much more effective and

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Speaker 1: serving to choose one word to serve as a contextual

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Speaker 1: beacon for the year ahead. And what this word does

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Speaker 1: is allow you to stumble. It allows you to It

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Speaker 1: serves me, I mean, the year of Wizard at the moment,

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Speaker 1: and the notion behind the word wizard was I kind

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Speaker 1: of want to actually go lock myself away in my

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Speaker 1: tower and write more and think more and do more

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Speaker 1: wizardly things. And I was also a wizard is never late,

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Speaker 1: and I was more interested in playing with how is

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Speaker 1: it that I keep on building these calendar months, days,

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Speaker 1: weeks where I just feel as though I'm constantly late,

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Speaker 1: rushing from one meeting to another. And so in many ways,

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Speaker 1: this word serves to guide some principles around the decisions

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Speaker 1: we make and the behaviors we enact. And so that's

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Speaker 1: kind of why I like choose and recommend folk to

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Speaker 1: choose one word.

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Speaker 2: And how what's your process for picking your word? And

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Speaker 2: we're recording this podcast right at the end of twenty

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Speaker 2: eighteen and it will be released in twenty nineteen. So

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Speaker 2: have you picked your word for twenty nineteen?

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Speaker 1: The word next year, I suspect will be full fool

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Speaker 1: And the full is a mythic word. It's an archetype fools, foolishness.

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Speaker 1: It is often where compared to conventional society, it seems

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Speaker 1: like what I'm doing is foolish, But I often feel

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Speaker 1: that I'm holding back from where I need to go.

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Speaker 1: There's a book that, as you know, I'm dying to write,

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Speaker 1: but I've been holding back because I've been worried about

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Speaker 1: is this really commercially viable? How people are going to

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Speaker 1: resonate with this? And it's completely the wrong questions. I

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Speaker 1: need to be asked, how much more foolish can I

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Speaker 1: be with this? There's plenty of other reasons around that.

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Speaker 1: I feel that the word thing takes a good nine

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Speaker 1: months to download, it takes nine months to integrate it

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Speaker 1: into your character, and the gestation period for a new

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Speaker 1: word might take might take a while, or some people

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Speaker 1: just intuitively know the process for choosing a word. Often

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Speaker 1: you will look at the patterns of your life, and so,

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Speaker 1: even though this is narrative fallacy, it's not true. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: it serves to think of your life as though it

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Speaker 1: were a story, an autobiography. It's not linear, it's not

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Speaker 1: like that, but it sometimes serves if you were to

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Speaker 1: look back at the last few years of your life

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Speaker 1: as though it were a story. Would you identify these

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Speaker 1: patterns that you find frustrating if you're reading this story, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I can't believe it's still we're at this point in time.

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Speaker 1: It's twenty nineteen and I'm still doing that, or I'm

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Speaker 1: still stuck in this, and these patterns hint at something. Now.

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Speaker 1: There's a wonderful book called Immunity to Change by Lisa

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Speaker 1: la Hay and Robert Keegan, and this identifies the notion

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Speaker 1: of hidden commitments. And often we try to make progress

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Speaker 1: in a particular domain, but we come across these hidden

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Speaker 1: commitments or conflicting values that are hard or difficult to reconcile.

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Speaker 1: And this is where, rather than setting a specific goal,

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Speaker 1: identifying is this hidden commitment or what does this need

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Speaker 1: that I can surface? And it might often start with

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Speaker 1: a fairly boring word like balance, health, love, happiness, But

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Speaker 1: then if we go I sometimes use a visual thesaurus,

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Speaker 1: So you google visual thesaurus and you put in these

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Speaker 1: boring root words, and then it spirals off into these

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Speaker 1: other potential words. And if you find something, you think

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Speaker 1: this is memorable and sticky enough to serve as a trigger.

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Speaker 1: So if I gift it to the closest people around me,

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Speaker 1: and they're aware that this is the word, you know,

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Speaker 1: the year of wizard or gesture or pirate or gentleman

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Speaker 1: or whatever it is. If they're aware of that, and

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Speaker 1: I'm aware of their words, in certain moments, we might

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Speaker 1: be able to just call them back in line with

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Speaker 1: their intention. In so amidst all the complexity, it serves

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Speaker 1: as a beautiful trigger to bring us back in line

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Speaker 1: with what we intend for ourselves in the year, rather

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Speaker 1: than just getting swept up in the same same default

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Speaker 1: pattern that we often find ourselves in.

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Speaker 2: How's that worked for you in two that in the

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Speaker 2: eighteen with the word wizard, Like, what's the time where

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Speaker 2: someone has said, well, come on, you're more wizardly?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's worked pretty terribly so far. It's but

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Speaker 1: it's been I mean, okay, so although this is what

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Speaker 1: you said, it's what appeared in my mind when you

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Speaker 1: said it. I was saying I was sharing with you

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Speaker 1: just how fatiguing I've found full day facilitations and it

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Speaker 1: just seems that I've booked in the strategic offsites leadership

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Speaker 1: type where it's a full day like wrestling with all

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Speaker 1: the nuances of a leadership team going through change, and

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Speaker 1: I've been in I've almost needed to take a couple

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Speaker 1: of days off after these events just to recover. And

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Speaker 1: with your philosophies around deep work, your approach and your

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Speaker 1: way of preserving the deep work time, which is so important,

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Speaker 1: I agree it's important too, but I've just fallen into

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Speaker 1: this pattern of not noticing or not allowing myself to

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Speaker 1: tap into deep work as much as I could. And

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Speaker 1: when you suggested that do you really need to keep

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Speaker 1: doing full days like this, maybe there's another way that

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Speaker 1: you can go about this, I was like, Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: I mean, what would a wizard do you know in

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Speaker 1: that regard? And so how that's translating is proactively my

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Speaker 1: year next year And this is going to Reek of

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Speaker 1: Privilege if folks hear this. So it's just I feel

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Speaker 1: embarrassed about this, but it's the result of a lot

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Speaker 1: of hard work in order to save up enough revenue

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Speaker 1: so as to buffer what I intend for the next year.

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Speaker 1: But I intend to take December January off for months

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Speaker 1: of months of deep work, then April off for another

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Speaker 1: month of deep work, and then July off for another

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Speaker 1: month of deep work, and this correlates to the busy

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Speaker 1: patches in my ear. The reason for this amount of

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Speaker 1: time is that there is a book in me that

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Speaker 1: wants to be written, and it seems to benefit from

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Speaker 1: consecutive days of deep work where I can throw myself

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Speaker 1: into this and pick up where I left off. So

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Speaker 1: that's that's kind of how wizard is translating. And it's

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Speaker 1: not so much this year, although it's been helpful. Last year,

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Speaker 1: I was away fifty percent of the year. This year,

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Speaker 1: I've only been away thirty percent of the year. I

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Speaker 1: have a goal next year to be home for at

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Speaker 1: least three hundred nights, so we'll see how that translates.

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Speaker 1: So that's cool.

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Speaker 2: And how do you make something like that happen when

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Speaker 2: you've got a goal of being home for three hundred nights? Like,

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Speaker 2: what are you going to do? Differently?

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Speaker 1: So Kim, my wonderful partner who also helps me, I'm

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Speaker 1: very lucky that as a business manager, and she's a veterinarian,

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Speaker 1: she's an illustrator, she's a writer, she's so much more

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Speaker 1: than this one small time but vital task that she

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Speaker 1: does for me. We track what our daily rate looks like.

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Speaker 1: We track the number of nights away. We have partner meetings,

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Speaker 1: which we're horrible. We're terrible at keeping into a good

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Speaker 1: rhythm of but whenever we do it, it's a way

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Speaker 1: of us checking in how are we progressing with fulfillment

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Speaker 1: factors like number of nights at home. Fulfillment factors also

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Speaker 1: include number of times gone to the gym each week.

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Speaker 1: It includes things like us having a weekend away once

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Speaker 1: once a month or something, or not not away, but

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Speaker 1: a weekend where we do things, so we track in

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Speaker 1: with those alongside with the business results. So when we're

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Speaker 1: considering the work that we do, it's alongside life fulfillment factors,

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Speaker 1: so we can kind of keep things in check.

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Speaker 2: That's cool. What does that look like? Is that a

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Speaker 2: poster on the wall? Is that an app? I?

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Speaker 1: Actually, that's so okay? I love is it as? It

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Speaker 1: should be a poster on the wall? Primacy, the first

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Speaker 1: order retrieval is so important. Instead, it's buried away, maybe

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Speaker 1: three folders deep in our drop box and pulled out

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Speaker 1: once a month. This is terrible, Like the fact you've

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Speaker 1: asked me, there's a y it should be. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think one of the one of my challenges at

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Speaker 1: the moment is currently we're in a small apartment in FITZROAI.

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Speaker 1: We're moving upstairs which allows me to have my own

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Speaker 1: home studio, but there hasn't been any place for these

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Speaker 1: artifacts to live, and so it's kind of and I

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Speaker 1: think that's been a big factor in actually and not

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Speaker 1: being as effective because it hasn't had that visual primacy.

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Speaker 1: I think about some agile work environments, which I know

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Speaker 1: you've worked with, some of these places where they have

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Speaker 1: that Inventum has like the key things up on the wall,

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Speaker 1: like and so every time you're walking past, you can't

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Speaker 1: help but see the most important things we don't currently

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Speaker 1: have that I should have.

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Speaker 2: That I want to come back to something you said

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Speaker 2: when you were talking about a wizard never runs late,

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Speaker 2: and it's got the quote Okay, all right, all right,

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Speaker 2: that's good. That's good to know my wizard knowledge. And

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Speaker 2: its mighte so like a weird question, but it's something

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Speaker 2: I do think about, like how do you not run late? Like?

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Speaker 2: What have you changed in your behavior?

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Speaker 1: My relationship to time itself? It comes down to, Okay,

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Speaker 1: so I've become incredibly suspicious of the hearing. I'm using

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Speaker 1: air quotes here. Optimized days optimize being, Oh, let's just

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Speaker 1: fit in as many meetings as we can. So my

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Speaker 1: previous philosophy was I don't really like meetings and phone

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Speaker 1: calls and stuff like that, so let's just batch them.

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Speaker 1: And what would happen is they'd be not as much

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Speaker 1: buffer time, and things would spill over because I'm not

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Speaker 1: good at keeping to time and stuff, and it would

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Speaker 1: just end up feeling horrible days. They're also the time

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Speaker 1: relationship thing is around how can we create like is

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Speaker 1: questioning do we actually need to have this meeting or

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Speaker 1: what's some ways that we can create some buffer and

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Speaker 1: grace so that when meetings do happen. And I think

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Speaker 1: this parallels your deep work ritual. I'm a morning person too,

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Speaker 1: so it seems to be that I'm some sort of

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Speaker 1: lark character as well. I feel like I'm a lark

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Speaker 1: that sleeps in. It's just the reason for that is

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Speaker 1: because the reason for that is because it's for the

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Speaker 1: same reason I don't think that I finish well. So

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Speaker 1: I'm still sometimes thinking about work after dinner and the

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Speaker 1: writing and ideas and stuff, and that translates to a

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Speaker 1: later night going to sleep, and eight hours of sleep

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Speaker 1: is very important and so the day shifts like that.

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Speaker 1: But bracketing phone, meetings and emails and all that stuff

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Speaker 1: into the afternoon is the thing that works for me.

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Speaker 1: So that allows me the grace to be arriving and

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Speaker 1: be present and not have a day chopped up with meetings.

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Speaker 1: I'm frequently late, though not intentionally, but it's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: about the literal interpretation of lateness, but or how can

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Speaker 1: we set up times so it doesn't allow me so

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Speaker 1: I'm not in the situation where I find myself late.

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Speaker 2: Something I've been reflecting on in my own life is

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Speaker 2: that a lot of the time, if I'm feeling stress,

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Speaker 2: it's because I feel like I'm going to be late,

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Speaker 2: And often I'm not late. I'm a very punctual person.

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Speaker 2: But I've just become very aware in the last few

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Speaker 2: weeks that my moments of stress are related to moving

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Speaker 2: from A to B to get from one meeting to

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Speaker 2: the next, or something like that. And I'm wondering for you,

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Speaker 2: like how I'm not sure then if lateness becomes stressful

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Speaker 2: for you, but I'm curious, like does it? And also

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Speaker 2: like how do you manage stress? The general stress?

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Speaker 1: So a lot of this stems to one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite books and concepts is anti fragility, Anti fragile things

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Speaker 1: that came from disorder. And what I'm mindful of is

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Speaker 1: the heaviness that sometimes can be attached to a particular day.

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Speaker 1: So think about a particular meeting. Some me things corporate

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Speaker 1: teleconference calls where they've got seven people jumping on the

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Speaker 1: line and there's some cut pass code and it's or

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Speaker 1: it's on the internet and I have to get out

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Speaker 1: my laptop and I might be in the cab on

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Speaker 1: the way to the airport or who knows what. So

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Speaker 1: I've learned to nib those things in the in the

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Speaker 1: bud because often a one on one chat with the

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Speaker 1: key person who knows the stuff via the phone is

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Speaker 1: much more effective. So then some teleconference where there's all

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Speaker 1: those awkward pauses, no one knows when and where to speak.

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Speaker 1: So that's that's one of the ways. And I mean

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Speaker 1: this time thing in and of itself is I've I've

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Speaker 1: had to allow myself more time to meander. With writing

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Speaker 1: comes a lot more reading. I've found there's there's this

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Speaker 1: thing where the more you think you know something, the

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Speaker 1: more you realize you don't know something. And so the

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Speaker 1: avenues that my writing takes me, opens me up to Okay,

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Speaker 1: there's some foundational work that I need to get across,

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Speaker 1: and then it just stands up being that the type

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Speaker 1: of day that I have is actually, you know, you've

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Speaker 1: asked me, you're asking me a question, and I'm thinking,

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Speaker 1: I'm due to refresh what my own understanding of this is.

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Speaker 1: And partly this is where I like the ritual of

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Speaker 1: choosing one word. We're coming at the moment to an

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Speaker 1: end of the year. It's where I reflect on, all right,

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Speaker 1: what's working, what's not working? That the primacy of the

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Speaker 1: timing is exactly an example of something that's not working,

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Speaker 1: because I don't have that happening.

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Speaker 2: Well, how do you make decisions? Because I know that

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Speaker 2: we're quite different in how we make decisions. I naturally

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Speaker 2: want to just jump to a solution, and I have

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Speaker 2: to force myself to just sit in the messy, ambiguous space.

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Speaker 2: And you're pretty much the polar opposite. Yeah, so what

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Speaker 2: does what does decision making look like in your world?

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Speaker 2: How do you make a decision? Like? And maybe if

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Speaker 2: you could think of an example decision.

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Speaker 1: How that's work? Well, okay, cool, so this is probably

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Speaker 1: different flavors of decision. There are simple admin decisions, there

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Speaker 1: are detailed decisions and things like that of which I

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Speaker 1: don't seem to have much appetite for whatsoever. So I

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Speaker 1: often allow Kim to make those decisions. She has a

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Speaker 1: very good understanding of my world, and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: that we can process her. I think it's mainly out

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Speaker 1: of her frustration for my inability to dedicate time to

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Speaker 1: what I consider to be what you might call the

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Speaker 1: shallow work decisions or the minor things.

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Speaker 2: Because some example of a minor decision.

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Speaker 1: Choosing a location of where to meet with someone, because

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Speaker 1: that email might come to me, I'm like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: well it's it's Friday afternoon and it's in the danger

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Speaker 1: zone where cafes closed but restaurants aren't open. What type

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Speaker 1: of conversation is that I'll be talking about sensitive stuff?

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Speaker 1: Because if that's the case, then we won't want something

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Speaker 1: with a booth? And is it something I mean, is

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Speaker 1: it risc if it's like a like a boozy place

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Speaker 1: or should it go coffee place? And what's the vibe

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Speaker 1: that we're looking for here? Do we want to fitzroy

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Speaker 1: or And then I'm like, and then write this polite

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Speaker 1: email and stuff like that. The whole process takes maybe

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Speaker 1: twenty minutes, and that's something that's probably easier to answer

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Speaker 1: in two minutes. The bigger decisions are what is the

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Speaker 1: what is the audience and topic and title of the

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Speaker 1: next book that I'm working on? What are the things that,

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Speaker 1: as far as the market knows, where am I going

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Speaker 1: to start positioning in that regard? And I mean I've

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Speaker 1: experienced the hangover effect of positioning strongly. My first book,

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Speaker 1: The Game Changer, came out at the same time that

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Speaker 1: gamification became a thing, and I was known, but as

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Speaker 1: that first some time. So this stuff is, this is big,

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Speaker 1: and it has an impact that lasts for maybe half

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Speaker 1: a decade or more. So that's something that I meander

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Speaker 1: my way through. That's probably an extreme version. And then

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Speaker 1: the other decisions are probably along the lines of what

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Speaker 1: projects to lean into each quarter. I like to think

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Speaker 1: about doing between one to three significant projects each quarter,

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Speaker 1: of which may be only one of them actually actually happens,

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Speaker 1: and across the year only two or three you may

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Speaker 1: actually be successful. But this might refer to particular collaborations,

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Speaker 1: events we might host, or things like that. My decision

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Speaker 1: making process for that is usually to brood for a

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Speaker 1: while on it. So I guess cal Newport calls this.

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Speaker 1: Ryan Holiday calls this the drawdown period in his book

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Speaker 1: The Perennial Seller. So you're angsting around a particular idea,

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Speaker 1: and then there's this, there's this kind of hunch or

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Speaker 1: an intuitive reckoning where you since the time is right,

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Speaker 1: because my natural disposition is to relish in the benefits

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Speaker 1: of procrastination for percolating around an idea, whereas you don't,

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Speaker 1: you're not blessed for that. I would. I would then

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Speaker 1: need to do something that's like committing to some sort

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Speaker 1: of public date to actually make it happen. So this

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Speaker 1: is usually where I'll anchor things. I announce some sort

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Speaker 1: of event a few months into the future and plan

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Speaker 1: to have something ready. This is how we launched that

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Speaker 1: independent magazine. This big event Whiskey Tasting, Coffee Tasting Cleverness

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Speaker 1: by and your thoughtful proplications with the Quietly Dissatisfied was

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Speaker 1: launched because we had the event on because there was

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Speaker 1: that external factor that got me going.

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Speaker 2: Hmm, that's interesting. So you find that that's quite helpful

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Speaker 2: for you. Setting that almost like external announcement, and then

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Speaker 2: it's like, okay, well, decisions made and I.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I gotta get there playing with your own cognitive

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Speaker 1: dissonance announcing something, and then you're kind of stuck with

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Speaker 1: this situation, Like I have a newsletter list of over

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Speaker 1: eleven thousand folks that you know. If I announced something

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Speaker 1: there and then it doesn't happen, I'm filled with this

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Speaker 1: existential angst of shit. I said this to all these folks.

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Speaker 1: I better actually do this or I have to kind

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Speaker 1: of come up with some lame story or reason as

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Speaker 1: to why I didn't. And I find that personally quite

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Speaker 1: a powerful motivating force to bridge that cognitive dissonance that

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Speaker 1: I create for myself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, you've mentioned rhythms a couple of times, so

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Speaker 2: obviously on the annual rhythm around the world, and you've

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Speaker 2: got a quarterly rhythm around you'll pick one to three

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Speaker 2: projects per quarter that you want to spend time and

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Speaker 2: lean into. What are the rhythms have you got in

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Speaker 2: your life.

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Speaker 1: I do have a daily rhythm, and this is for

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Speaker 1: non travel days, and that is that I would will

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Speaker 1: generally wake up somewhere between six thirty and seven thirty

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Speaker 1: and the first thing I'll do is in these ideal days,

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Speaker 1: is after I have a coffee that I make for myself,

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Speaker 1: which is a fairly ritualistic process of a pour over

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Speaker 1: coffee with locally roasted beans, and that process in and

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Speaker 1: of itself is a bit of a mindfulness activity. And

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Speaker 1: haven't looked at my phone at the stage. It's just

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Speaker 1: being in flow. It gets me centered for the day.

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Speaker 1: It's probably where I'm pacing through in my mind. All right,

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Speaker 1: what's the shape of the day look like you? I

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Speaker 1: think you do this the day beforehand. You have your

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Speaker 1: wonder list which to identify it. I'm kind of I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of feeling my way through them. I'll then skate

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Speaker 1: on my skateboard to a local cafe. I arrive there.

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Speaker 1: I then open up the app Ulysses, which is one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite writing apps. The reason I like Ulysses

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Speaker 1: is if you're on the laptop or the iPad or tablet,

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Speaker 1: it can do this full screen mode where I have

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Speaker 1: a black background and all you're seeing is the cursor

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Speaker 1: and you're writing. I set the target to five hundred

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Speaker 1: or seven fifty words, depending on where we're at, and

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Speaker 1: I do morning pages. I write in flea free flow

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Speaker 1: writing for at least five hundred words. That is a

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Speaker 1: means of me to identifying patterns or things that are

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Speaker 1: percolating in the subconscious that I might not otherwise be

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Speaker 1: aware of. That writing then gets uploaded into Day one journal.

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Speaker 1: I like Day one journal because when I uploaded it

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Speaker 1: onto Day one sometimes it will show me what I

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Speaker 1: wrote this exact day a year ago, two years ago,

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Speaker 1: three years ago. And it's disturbing sometimes how familiar these

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Speaker 1: patterns are. It's like, oh, this time two years ago,

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Speaker 1: I had pretty much the same angst what's going on there?

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Speaker 1: And there's these cues and reminders that there's always While

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Speaker 1: there's deep work for us to do and the work

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Speaker 1: that we're putting out to the world, there's also deep

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Speaker 1: inner work that we need to be doing around recognizing

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Speaker 1: and knowing ourselves more. I then so the first five

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Speaker 1: hundred words for myself, I then dedicate a block of

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Speaker 1: time to the next bunch of words. I mean, this

432
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: is more rather than the number of words. This is

433
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 1: the amount of time that I dedicate, and that's writing

434
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 1: time for the book, my newsletter, or for other hefty

435
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 1: work like that. I find deep work when done well

436
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 1: is quite fatiguing in a good way. So usually when

437
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: I surface out of the figure that comes from the

438
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 1: deep work, skate home. That movement helps. I'll have lunch.

439
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: Lunch is one of those things where and then I'm

440
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: checking my email, I'm dipping into the Internet. And then

441
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 1: after through lunch, I then have a period of light

442
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 1: work and then I have either a gym or a

443
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: long walk. And that the golden rule that is adhere

444
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: to most of the time is that there's no work

445
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 1: from dinner onwards. So cooking dinner, have dinner, and then

446
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 1: I'm chilling in the evening. That's what the daily rhythm

447
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 1: looks like in an ideal day.

448
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 2: Wow, how many days are ideal days?

449
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 1: So I find that October and November and particularly busy times,

450
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: and in my world perhaps your world too, whereas December, January,

451
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,239
Speaker 1: February not so busy. We have a at the end

452
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: of the day, Kim and I have a daily We

453
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 1: have a gratitude calendar, and this is an annual calendar,

454
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 1: a perpetual calendar. There's two things this calendar does. One

455
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: is we track the days where we've done deliberate physical activity.

456
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,239
Speaker 1: And that's where we simply get a dot, and this

457
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: is partly a a way of quickly visualizing what are

458
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 1: the number of days that I've gone to the gym

459
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 1: or done deliberate intense physical activity. Same with Kim, and

460
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: there's usually a correspondence between the dots and the number

461
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 1: of times that I've had to fly away to do

462
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,199
Speaker 1: client work. The other thing that we do is in

463
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: the box is Kim and I write down something that

464
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 1: we're grateful for, something that we appreciate, or something that's

465
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: a highlight of the day. Recently we wrote down that

466
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: doing a pizza making course with you and our friends

467
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 1: was like the highlight of our day. We loved it.

468
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: It's so cool. But of course you know the power

469
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: of gratitudes and science behind it. This is a lovely

470
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: way to cap the days, and we're not thinking about

471
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: the unfinished things. We're thinking about the things that do well.

472
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: But it also highlights some correlations and some interesting patterns

473
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: around what we like and what makes us feel good.

474
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 2: Hmm, that's nice, that's quite inspiring. I'm my start doing

475
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: that myself.

476
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: So I.

477
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 2: Want to stay on on the topic of different rhythms,

478
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 2: like in terms of weekly and monthly rhythms. Do they

479
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 2: exist in your world as well?

480
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so weekly there's a In an ideal world, there's

481
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 1: a partner meeting. This happens only about half the time.

482
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: The partner meetings us Kim and I are checking in

483
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: the business, but it's also checking in with each other's

484
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: for film and factors, what's working for us, what might

485
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 1: be getting the way we refresh our for filmat factors

486
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: at least or whenever needed, but it usually translates to

487
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: every year. Things for me include curiosity includes a word

488
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 1: like vitality, and vitality includes physical activity time and nature,

489
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: time with friends and things like that. Weekly is also

490
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: a good chance to identify friction. So friction things that

491
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: the things that happen each week. These are the things

492
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: that if you nibble them in the bud early, they

493
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: don't have to turn into something bigger later. But these things,

494
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: they're a little pesky, annoying things. But if there's a

495
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: space to be like, hey, Finn, it takes way too

496
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 1: much time to do this, so we could probably do

497
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: this better. That appears weekly. Monthly, we try to have

498
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 1: some sort of full day dedicated to looking at the business,

499
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: looking at what we're doing. And that's something where we

500
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: try to go beyond the operational stuff and bring a

501
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: little bit more creativity into it, Like what's a better

502
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: way that we can do this? Or in the moment,

503
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: I'm looking at my booking agreement and thinking, okay, the

504
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 1: lawyers had a look at that. Can we humanize this

505
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: at all? Are there any opportunities? Probably dangerous thing to

506
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: be focused on, but there's things that happen on the

507
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: website or other things like that. It's just that monthly

508
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: thing gives us a chance to look at a little

509
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: bit deeper. It also makes us think do we want

510
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: to host do we want to host an event? Or

511
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: what's some quirky collaboration that Kim with her illustration writing

512
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 1: and myself, we might be able to put together quarterly

513
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 1: bigger projects. And there's also a seasonality to things, and

514
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 1: mid mid winter there's like a brooding time of deep

515
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: work and writing and stuff. And yeah, midsummer is much more,

516
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: much more just stop working and allow some empty time

517
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: into our world.

518
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 2: Hmm, that's nice. I like the seasonality. It reminds me

519
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 2: of the book by the Base Camp guys. It doesn't

520
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 2: have to be crazy at work where they talk about

521
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 2: the seasonality of base camp and how in the summer

522
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 2: months they'll do I think a four day, thirty two

523
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 2: hour week and you know winter will feel very different

524
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: this summer and it's sort of it's seasonal. I like

525
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 2: that a lot. I want to know with your fulfillment factors,

526
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,719
Speaker 2: how did you know what they were? How did you

527
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 2: uncover those?

528
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: So, yeah, good question, and this is a good thing

529
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: for I think any team leader to do for themselves

530
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: and ask of their team as well. This is this

531
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: came across where essentially I read an article about anti goals.

532
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: So if you think about the types of things within

533
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: your day that contribute to a really crappy day, like

534
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: day full of meetings or you know, not sleeping well,

535
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: running late, think about all those things and that's the

536
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: starting point. Then think about the times in your life

537
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: where you've experienced extreme versions of this, like extreme lack

538
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: of fulfillment, and then the flip side where the times

539
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: what's been going on where you've felt really quite fulfilled.

540
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: What have been the factors that contribute there? So I

541
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: know there's a spiral that happens for me that if

542
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: I have a lot of time traveling where I'm doing

543
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: interstate or international work with clients. The flights, the time difference,

544
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: the diet that changes when I'm in hotels, sleeping in

545
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: different rooms can set me on this little bit of

546
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: a spiral in terms of health and making bad choices.

547
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: I know also that if I have more than three

548
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: days pass where I haven't done my morning pages or

549
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: my morning ritual, that's usually an early indicator that something's

550
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: going on here. If there's more than three days past

551
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: where I haven't had time to read books or feed

552
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: my curiosity, which is a fulfillment factor, that's an early

553
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: warning sign. And so all these things. If we look

554
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: at these factors and distill it down to a list

555
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: of three or five things, that's usually enough of a

556
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: sense of like, all right, well, what does it look

557
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: like If vitality of the fulfillment factor is being met,

558
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: and it looks like going to the gym three times

559
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: a week, and looks like getting good sleep and so on,

560
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: you can usually distill it into something quite measurable. That's

561
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: the process of how that comes about. And it's not

562
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: a set and forget. I think some things become different

563
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: priorities at different times. But it's something that serves us

564
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: as a background reminder.

565
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're kind of tapping into what are the

566
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: things that frustrate you and then kind of looking at

567
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 2: what's it's the opposite.

568
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: Explore both extremes, and they provide the hints as to

569
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: what's what's lacking or what's there in abundance and what

570
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: is that thing if you if you if you expand

571
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: up into a higher level of abstraction, what is that

572
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: thing there? Yeah?

573
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: I like that, and that's nice that you do that

574
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: with your partner Kim as well. That's that's a really

575
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: nice ritual.

576
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and it's happened with some teams that I've

577
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: helped facilitate this with where they've gotten to know each other.

578
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: It's really significant fulfillment factors. So for some folks it's

579
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: been you know, if the time with time with family

580
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: in the morning or in the evening and stuff is

581
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: really really important. And I know that there are times

582
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: where we've got to stay back late at work, but

583
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: there are just some things that are really vital and

584
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: for the rest of the team to know that means

585
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: that they can champion their for filment factors. More. Other

586
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: things are like you know, if it comes to a

587
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: alfilment factor around curiosity. For example, a culture around where

588
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: there's an active, live conversation around what are you reading

589
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: or what things what are you hearing from? That can

590
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: help in that fulfilment factor too.

591
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 2: I remember going through the fulfillment process with you a

592
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: few years ago now, and it's inspired me to pick

593
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: that up again and do that again. You've mentioned that

594
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 2: you travel a lot for work, which is the nature

595
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 2: of the beast in terms of what you do, and

596
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: I want to know how do you use your time

597
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: on planes? I find that I'm really curious. I've asked

598
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 2: this of a few guests that do travel very frequently.

599
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: What does the plane flight look like for you?

600
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so there are two types of plane flights for me.

601
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: There's the business class flights that happen for the way

602
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: that our booking agreement currently is for any flights of

603
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: three hours or more, it really ought to be business class,

604
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: and it is most of the time. That's quite It

605
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: seems luxurious to some many folks, but you know, the

606
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: novelty wears off it. Just what that turns into is

607
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: not missing out on the opportunity to actually do work

608
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: in the day because the opportunity cost of some international

609
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: engagements is huge. The business class just mitigates that. So

610
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: if it's a flight like that, I wear the pajamas

611
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: that are you know, on the plane. If it's a

612
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: flight to LA or you know, to Scandandavia or something,

613
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: it's like this like a little club that you're in,

614
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: and I get I have just power and work.

615
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: Like I.

616
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: Don't actually watch movies directly most of the time, but

617
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: then I watch it indirectly because of the screens around me,

618
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: and it's this little game of like what are they

619
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: actually talking about? From a nonverbal perspective, Like I feel

620
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: like the quality of acting is actually part of what

621
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: influences how I communicate on stage, and so I actually

622
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: find that partially fascinating, but otherwise it's good music noise

623
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: canceling headphones. Are using neurophones, which are a headphone developed

624
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: in Melbourne, which are fun. In terms of domestic flights

625
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: and non business class flights, I find that they're usually

626
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: day trips, and so the day that's more about energy preservation.

627
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: I've been using Sam Harris's Waking Up Course, which is

628
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: a meditation course. Sam Harris is a really really on

629
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: point rational thinker. So if I'm not doing some sort

630
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,720
Speaker 1: of meditation part, I'll be listening to podcasts like yours,

631
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 1: like his, and like a few others, and just chilling

632
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 1: or reading a paper book with a black wing pencil

633
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: and underlying, underlining things that resonate with me. It just yeah,

634
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: depends on my mood at the time.

635
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 2: Do you have a plan? So with the international flights,

636
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 2: do you have a plan of attack before you get

637
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 2: on the plane as to how you're going to use

638
00:34:59,520 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 2: your time.

639
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: I usually have just the sense of cool, this is

640
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: a chunk of time to write on this particular bit,

641
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: and the plan usually looks like a combination. It looks

642
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: like the things that I'm bringing onto the plane with me.

643
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: So I love typing with the iPad. I love the

644
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: keyboard that's there and ulysses. I love that app Scrivener

645
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: is also incredibly good for writing bigger, more complex pieces

646
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: of work. I find the digital as well as an

647
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: analog thing with me. So I might have notes sketched

648
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: out on paper pad. That's as much of a plan

649
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: as I go into. I like the ambiguity of being

650
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: able to write and explore what emerges, and planes offer

651
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: one of those rare experiences for emergent time, it seems

652
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: like day to day there is a need to actually

653
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: make what's more tangible progress, whereas a long flight. Yeah,

654
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: there's some space for stuff to emerge, and it might

655
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: be that in allowing yourself not to be too focused

656
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: on a specific goal, but to be disciplined in the

657
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: pursuit of writing stuff emergers that ends up being quite useful.

658
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense. I want to talk about email

659
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 2: because I feel like you must get a lot of email,

660
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: and I feel like when I send you an email,

661
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 2: I don't know whether I'm going to get a response,

662
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 2: so I tend not to email you. I just text

663
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: message you because I know that I'll get a quick response.

664
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 2: So I want to know how are you approaching email?

665
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: And I also know you've got a secret email address

666
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 2: that I think only friends know about. I've got that,

667
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 2: and even if I email you at the secretly email address,

668
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 2: I still don't get a response. So how does email

669
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 2: work in your world?

670
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: Okay, So I really admire Bill Murray. Apparently Bill Murray

671
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: checks his correspondence once or twice a year, only accepts

672
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: correspondents by handwritten letters. I've thought that would be nice,

673
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 1: just handwritten letters. I could probably de gate some time

674
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: to that. I feel this conscious need to buck against

675
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: the trend of urgency. This addiction to urgency that many

676
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: folks within corporate environments have around emails is expectation that

677
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: people need to get back to you really quickly and

678
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 1: really and you know, the more asap and email becomes,

679
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: the more likely I am to kind of give it

680
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 1: more time. It's kind of like being tailgated, like I'll

681
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: just slow down if someone's like really impatient behind me.

682
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: I don't know why I can't help up with these inversions.

683
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: It's also for me a so I have slowly trained

684
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 1: the world to email me through particular channels, the reason

685
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 1: being early on in the day I was I mean,

686
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: you heard the glimpse of how I approach email beforehand,

687
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: for just choosing a meeting location. I just I don't

688
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: know what it is. There's some deep work that I

689
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: still need to do on myself around unless I'm doing

690
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: an email blitz. Like there's a thing called the email game,

691
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: which sometimes it says you're a time parameter. You get

692
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,280
Speaker 1: thirty seconds to decide what to do with each email.

693
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: You get points. I can blitz through emails, so sometimes

694
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 1: I save it for one big batch. I've got a

695
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 1: big batch right now.

696
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 2: And it's a big match, like how many are.

697
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 1: Each so not including like all the junk ones which

698
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 1: you can just select and edit out. There's probably about

699
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: a big match. To me, feels like anything in the

700
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: double digits. But a big batch is probably something like

701
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: thirty emails.

702
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,919
Speaker 2: Okay, thirty that each require an individual.

703
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: Considered responsib that each my silly mind believes requires a

704
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:42,439
Speaker 1: tailored individual response. It probably doesn't lunch, Yes, it probably doesn't,

705
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: so I'm not blitzing them. Then I'm really lucky that

706
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: kid's really on points. She's not cursed with my need

707
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: to consider every simple request the most complex lens possible.

708
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: So she helps me a lot in that regard, And

709
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 1: for the few emails that do make their way into

710
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,280
Speaker 1: mind inbox, I get around to it at some point.

711
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 1: I often find that most of the emails aren't. Is

712
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: important that people think that they are, and if they are,

713
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,479
Speaker 1: they find other means to get across It is again

714
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: one of those things that it's not something I necessarily

715
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: recommend people plunge into. But I have been experimenting with

716
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: this thing called inbox Pause, which is this auto responder

717
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 1: where you can set specific times where you'll accept email

718
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: or where email comes in. I had it set up

719
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: so that email are only come in after three point thirty,

720
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: but then the way that the auto responder goes back

721
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: and triggers things, I'm just I'm not so sure. I'm

722
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: hoping that it's a more elegant thing, But in terms

723
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: of my own peace of mind, it helped me not

724
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 1: feel a sense of urgency about getting back to people.

725
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: So it's a constant experimentation. I don't feel email is

726
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: that nice a place. It doesn't allow for quality thinking

727
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: or deep conversation at all, But in terms of fununctional logistics,

728
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: I understand it does serve it sometimes.

729
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 2: So you're not really like drawn into your inbox. It

730
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 2: sounds like it's more repellent as opposed to something that

731
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 2: you're really dying to get into.

732
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 1: The inbox reflects a whole bunch of demands on my time,

733
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: and because it might be a symptom because of the

734
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: amount of travel that I've had or something, and it

735
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: might be a protective mechanism where I really want to

736
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: write this book and deep work is the thing that

737
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: I love most, and it's also the thing I believe

738
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: adds the most value. So if I'm not writing, speaking,

739
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: or doing similar things of high value work, then I'm

740
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: really wary as to the impact that can have. So

741
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,919
Speaker 1: I glance at email, I see the things I really

742
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: wish I could just touch it once and then leave it.

743
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: But a lot of it goes into the incubator, which

744
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: is probably not switched on, you know, the room temperature incubator.

745
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 1: You know the fruits dryer or dehydrator that takes us

746
00:40:58,880 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: seven days to.

747
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's funny. I wish I need more of your

748
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 2: email slowness, I feel, I mean, you know, like you

749
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 2: kind of train people with the way that you respond

750
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 2: to emails and the pace, and I have to deliberately

751
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: slow myself down.

752
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 1: You know. So going back to the word thing, the

753
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: wizard thing, the language of which I use in some

754
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: emails is sometimes it's got some character and flare to it,

755
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: which I think allows me some level of forgiveness amongst folks,

756
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: and some people tend to relish in it. So when

757
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: I do eventually reply, it is in character a little

758
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: bit my own character. But you know, I somehow seem

759
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: to get away with that, But I don't. Again, thinking

760
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: with empathy for the folks working in a large organization

761
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: is probably a career limiting strategy to adopt this. But

762
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: if you're the type of person, if you're the type

763
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 1: of person who you know who makes a living because

764
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: of their thinking, then you know this is the way

765
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: that's been worked for me. Having that it's still generates

766
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: anxiety and angst. So if I had learned from you

767
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 1: and actually handle these things sooner, chances that I might

768
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: be actually happier. So I don't think my way is

769
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 1: the way, but it just seems to be a way

770
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: that seems to work.

771
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 2: OK. I want to ask about speaking gigs. So something

772
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 2: that I think we both experienced is that often people

773
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 2: will ask us to speak at things and they will

774
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 2: pay us our fee, which is set. And other times

775
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 2: people will ignore the fact that this is one of

776
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 2: the ways that we make a living and ask us

777
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 2: to speak for free. And I'm curious, like I know,

778
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 2: like in my life, I've thought a lot about how

779
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: I decide what to say yes to and what to

780
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 2: say no to, and the decision of whether to speak

781
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 2: for free or not. Because it is a frequent occurrence

782
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,879
Speaker 2: being asked to speak for free is something that I've

783
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 2: you know, debated in my mind. How do I create

784
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,399
Speaker 2: rules around that for a while and I haven't quite

785
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 2: landed on anything perfect, but it's evolving, and I want

786
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 2: to know for you, how does that process work for

787
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 2: you when you're getting a request they've got no budget,

788
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 2: and how do you decide whether to say yes or

789
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 2: whether to say no?

790
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, well, I think that there's a

791
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: third option here, and this is an opportunity that we

792
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: often take. And this is where the privilege of having

793
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 1: built profile and being in a position where you are

794
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: getting these requests that it provides an opportunity for you

795
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: to connect them with maybe an emerging speaker or a

796
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: speaker who maybe doesn't have as many runs on the board,

797
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,919
Speaker 1: but you think you admire their thinking or perspective there.

798
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: The first response for this stuff is often love to

799
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: this is a writing year, as any opportunity effectively removes

800
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: me from the market and also means that I can't

801
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: write anything on that day. We do need to charge

802
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,919
Speaker 1: for this. It also takes up a bit, a fair

803
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: bit of headspace and the lead up to it, and

804
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: not to mention the travel time as well. So if

805
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 1: there's no budget, we do have a few folks in

806
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: mind that you might want to consider it, and then we

807
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: give a list of like two or three folks that

808
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,720
Speaker 1: they might want to consider that might match their theme. Again,

809
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: this is another one that need those emails like a

810
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: blower heap of time on. So it's usually Kim that

811
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: handles this stuff, but sometimes there are gigs where it

812
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: just is so aligned to your values. So then I

813
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: think about things in terms of impact. If it's impact

814
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 1: and ease, probably if it's a really large audience for

815
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 1: a cause that I'm very passionate about, we'd then start

816
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 1: to consider it. And there are options that we can

817
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: bring into play, like maybe we do a book signing there,

818
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: or maybe there's something I don't know, or if it's

819
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 1: like this charming little group and it's in Melbourne and

820
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: I can just catch the tram there and I feel,

821
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: you know, heartened by it and I don't have to

822
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,800
Speaker 1: put much prep time into it. You know, maybe maybe

823
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: that's the thing. Don't get new ideas, folks. Maybe that's

824
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: the thing. The thing that you can have the clubs cont.

825
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 2: Just a tram right away.

826
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: The thing that I avoid is the murky middle gram ground,

827
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: Like I don't get into conversations like oh, what about

828
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: five hundred dollars or things like that. It's just it's

829
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 1: not actually like that. It's really it's not about time

830
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: per hour. It's not that it's a silly game that

831
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: we're in. It can be incredibly high impact in some

832
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: organizations at key moments to have that provocation and perspective

833
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 1: filtering through senior leadership and all the organizations so they

834
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: have a new framework and new language to work with.

835
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 1: And at other times, you know, I know that I'm

836
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,399
Speaker 1: getting booked because there's an entertainment component to it. There's

837
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: you know, people are feeling good and they're like, ah,

838
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 1: I love that. So it's a funny game. But for

839
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: our own sanity and preserving the deep work that's really

840
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: important and the reason we're getting asked for this stuff

841
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: in the first place, we need to preserve some integrity

842
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 1: around the value.

843
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense. So I want to finish up

844
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 2: with some questions I call them rapid fire questions. But

845
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 2: the irony is there never answered by any of my guests,

846
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 2: and it's about what are you consuming? Because I think

847
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 2: it's so hard for the average person to know what

848
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 2: should they consume because there's so much information out there

849
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 2: and it can be huge times app and so I

850
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 2: want to start with books because I know that you

851
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: read a lot, and I'm curious, like, maybe in the

852
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 2: year of twenty eighteen, what were like, you know, a

853
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 2: couple of sort of standout highlight books for you.

854
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 1: Three books, The Listening Society by hansy Frainacht, which is

855
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:34,959
Speaker 1: looking at political metamodernism, metamodern philosophy and political philosophy. Skin

856
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: in the Game which came out early in the year,

857
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: which is another book by an Asimteleb which looks at

858
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 1: the hidden asymmetries in life. And the third book is

859
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: twenty one Lessons for the twenty first Century by Yavol Harari,

860
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: which is a very apt sense around what we need

861
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: to be thinking about in this day and age.

862
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 2: How do you read a book, I'm curious.

863
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, if it's if it's nonfiction, it's a physical

864
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: book nowadays ideal the smaller version so it can travel

865
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 1: with it. I have a black wing pencil, but any

866
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: soft lead pencil will work. I have a sharp note

867
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: with me and I underline and if it's particularly apt

868
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: to point, I'll put an asterisk in the column, and

869
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: then after reading the book, I will ideally and most

870
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 1: of the time, write up my own summary of the

871
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: keynotes of things that I got from the book.

872
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 2: Nice. That's very discipline. How about podcasts? What are podcasts

873
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 2: and podcasts that that you're loving and regularly consuming?

874
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: Yeah? Cool, there's this podcast called How I Were, which

875
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 1: is great. No, this quite seriously. I loved the Like

876
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: the first ones that I plunged into are plunged in

877
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: at random, But the Rachel Batsman interview you had, like

878
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: that open up new ways for me to work. So

879
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: thank you. I love it, and I love the work

880
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:50,919
Speaker 1: that you do and keep on going. It's so good,

881
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: particularly for fluffy, nefarious folk like me. I also like

882
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,720
Speaker 1: Sam Harris's podcast. I like the way that he questions

883
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 1: things and doesn't settle for what can often be polite

884
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: and platitudinist conversations. He's really able to go a bit deeper.

885
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,760
Speaker 1: Justin Glias Harry Slowly. I like Lap one quite a lot,

886
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: and a made of mine. Josh Jansen with a friend

887
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: of his, Tommy Jacket, does the Daily Talk Show, which

888
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 1: is every single day they've every weekday they've made an episode.

889
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: It's crazy. They interviewed Seth Godin recently in New York.

890
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 1: And the reason I like that is there's this kind

891
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: of there's this real relaxed, down to worth conversation stuff,

892
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 1: and I find sometimes like sometimes there's a stiff formality

893
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: that can come with podcast interviews, and I really like it,

894
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 1: Like like what you do in your podcast where you

895
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,720
Speaker 1: ask the unexpected questions or you cover ground that hasn't

896
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: been as well covered, and you know that seems to

897
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: be what naturally emerges with their.

898
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 2: Show Wow Daily, Oh my gosh. E newsletters. Are there

899
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 2: any newsletters that you subscribe to and look forward you're receiving?

900
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the dense discovery by Kai Brack is one

901
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: that I really appreciate. Kai as a pioneer behind off

902
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,720
Speaker 1: screen mag which is looking at the people behind the pixels.

903
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: His sense of things is just really on point. I

904
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: also appreciate Farnham Street the thinking that goes into that

905
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,399
Speaker 1: of the inventive newsletter. Of course, you know my own

906
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: newsletter that would probably be the main things I mean,

907
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: of course, there are other newsletters I wish I hadn't

908
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: you mentioned them, but yeah, that's probably it.

909
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 2: Cool, awesome, awesome, And Jason, finally, if people want to

910
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 2: read more of your stuff, learn more about you, where

911
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 2: are the best places to find you?

912
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: Right? So thank you, Dosh. Jason Fox dot com is

913
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: the place. Although it's suggest subscribing to my newsletter, it's

914
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 1: what I do in between books and it's the thing

915
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: I'm probably most proud about in terms of my own writing.

916
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: So that's doctor Jasonfox dot com for Slash. Ohoy. I

917
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: do have a podcast. It's a little bit more nascent

918
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: and still germinating when compared to yours, but it's an

919
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 1: opportunity for me to delve a little bit deeper into

920
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:16,479
Speaker 1: some of the questions I'm asked after keynotes or via

921
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: email by my newsletter subscribers. So that can be found

922
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: at doctor Jasonfox dot com, Fort Slash podcast or The

923
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: Cleverness with Doctor Jason Fox.

924
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 2: Awesome, love it cool. Well, I have loved this chat, Jay,

925
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 2: so it's nice finding the time to just sit down

926
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 2: and have a chat and so talk about how we work.

927
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,399
Speaker 2: So thank you so much, thank you, Hello there, thank

928
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 2: you so much for listening, and I hope you've got

929
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 2: some useful tips and insights from my chat with jas.

930
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 2: There's also a bunch of things that I link to

931
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 2: in the show notes from all the books and apps

932
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 2: and technology that Jace mentioned during the chat, so you

933
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 2: can just check them out wherever you listen to your podcasts.

934
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 2: And as I always say, and you'll probably sink of hearing.

935
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 2: If you are enjoying how I work, I would love

936
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 2: it if you could either leave a review or maybe

937
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 2: share some episodes that you've really loved with other people

938
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 2: that you think could benefit from them. And also, if

939
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,359
Speaker 2: you don't already subscribe, just click the subscribe button and

940
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 2: you will be notified whenever a new episode drops. That's

941
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 2: it for me and I'll see you next time.