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Speaker 1: Now we know that there has been quite a bit

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Speaker 1: of discussion over the recent days about the use of

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Speaker 1: spit hoods and Aboriginal leaders and the community sector advocates

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Speaker 1: are calling for the Northern Territory government. Says, stop playing

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Speaker 1: politics or stop playing games, I should say on the

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Speaker 1: detention and protection of children. They say that revelations at

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Speaker 1: spit hoods and restraints are still being used on children

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Speaker 1: in the Northern Territory years after the Chief Minister Michael

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Speaker 1: Gunner and the Northern Territory Government promised they'd be banned,

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Speaker 1: are both shocking and concerning. Joining me on the line

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Speaker 1: is the CEO of AM Sant, John Patterson. Good morning

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Speaker 1: to you, John, and.

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Speaker 2: A very good morning to you Katie. John.

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Speaker 1: What needs to happen here from your perspective, Katie, let.

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Speaker 2: Me say from the outsets, we take our head off

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Speaker 2: and we applaud all those frontline service workers, including the police.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we've had a very good understanding and relationships

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Speaker 2: throughout this whole COVID pandemic period. For the last couple

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Speaker 2: of years. They have helped us with roadblocks, keeping the

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Speaker 2: borders safe, checkpoint Charlie type arrangements, helping out with those

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Speaker 2: breakouts that we had at Robinson River, Binjari and the

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Speaker 2: cast Religion and obviously others since then. So and we

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Speaker 2: you know, like I say, nurses, police, all those on

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Speaker 2: the front line emergency people, a big applaud for their

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Speaker 2: efforts sometimes you know, under strenuous situations throughout the period.

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Speaker 2: So I just wanted to say that up, Katie. The

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Speaker 2: next thing I want to say is that you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to focus on individuals or others. I

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Speaker 2: think what's required here is the appropriate leadership to step

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Speaker 2: up and look at other alternative approaches and models when

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Speaker 2: dealing with children when they're taking into custody or a

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Speaker 2: put into other holding arrangements. And from our perspective that

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Speaker 2: it came from, the Royal Commission finds, of course that

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Speaker 2: the use of any restraints, the chairs and the split

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Speaker 2: hoods ought to be banned and removed from being used

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Speaker 2: on children. So i'd see the Police Minister has come out.

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Speaker 2: I haven't seen that statement yet, but have you got

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Speaker 2: something I do?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, she had said that they have asked police

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Speaker 1: to advise if there are alternative practices to keep officers

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Speaker 1: as safe as possible. It may include investigating whether additional

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Speaker 1: penalties could be considered for offenses against officers, and whether

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Speaker 1: protective equipment or other measures can be provided to staff

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Speaker 1: to further mitigate against the risk of injury caused by

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Speaker 1: spitting and biting. And it is like it's quite extensive.

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Speaker 1: There's some other There is certainly other parts of that

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Speaker 1: statement as well, saying that they are committed to obviously

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Speaker 1: keeping police safe from spitting and also want them to

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Speaker 1: be safe from any accusation for not providing proper care

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Speaker 1: to people in custody, including at watch houses. And John,

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Speaker 1: I think you know, it is such a difficult situation.

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Speaker 1: Nobody wants to see kids in spin hoods. Nobody wants

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Speaker 1: to see them restraints, But equally, you know, nobody wants

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Speaker 1: to see them in a situation where they're in the

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Speaker 1: watch house in the first place.

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Speaker 2: And that's right, Katie. Look, kids come from all sorts

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Speaker 2: of backgrounds, and you know, it's unfortunate that there are

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Speaker 2: a few that coming to contact with the justice system

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Speaker 2: and find themselves in various you know, watchrooms or other

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Speaker 2: detention centers, et cetera. So look, we've got to deal

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Speaker 2: with it. This is where I want to focus on

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Speaker 2: the leadership and the appropriate stakeholders meeting with governments or

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Speaker 2: their representatives along with the other stakeholders that have joined

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Speaker 2: yesterday's in essay's press and there are a few others

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Speaker 2: that ought to be involved in sitting down round tabling

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Speaker 2: discussing various scenarios situations. If it can be done another jurisdictions, Katie,

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Speaker 2: you're going to understand other states and jurisdictions police prisons

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Speaker 2: and mental health facilities have privative the use of spitals.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if it takes looking at what sort of

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Speaker 2: legislative frameworks and other processes.

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Speaker 3: That they've implemented, and other jurisdictions, I think we ought

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Speaker 3: to look at that seriously and see whether we get

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Speaker 3: implementity in the order separtary rather than using these restraints that,

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Speaker 3: particularly when it comes to childrement, it's just unacceptable.

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Speaker 1: John, what I mean. I guess it's really tough because

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Speaker 1: yesterday we spoke to the Police Association and they said

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Speaker 1: that you know, these are used as a last resort

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Speaker 1: and it is a situation where they're using split hoods

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Speaker 1: and restraints as an absolute last resort, and that it

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Speaker 1: is if somebody is at risk of self harm or

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Speaker 1: or I guess of harming an officer as well. So

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Speaker 1: how do you know, like, how do you get past that?

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Speaker 1: Because if you've got whether it's a young person or

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Speaker 1: an adult who's who's at risk of hurting themselves without

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Speaker 1: using those restraints, what do the police do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Katie, I've been given this some thought overnight and

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Speaker 2: thinking through you know, and I don't know what watchhouse

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Speaker 2: you know, these rooms or these facilities or these spaces

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Speaker 2: that where they hold people. But maybe we look at

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Speaker 2: maybe we need to look at the press. And this

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Speaker 2: is why there needs to be around to able to

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Speaker 2: discussion to find out a bit more of the detail

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Speaker 2: what's involved here. But from the time of you know,

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Speaker 2: police coming into contact with the culprits to and then

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Speaker 2: between there and the putting them into these watchhouse cells,

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Speaker 2: et cetera, I mean, are there rather alternative strategies that

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Speaker 2: we can approach that we can consider during that process

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Speaker 2: there rather than you know, and look, I can't I

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Speaker 2: don't know the specific incidences other the like I say,

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Speaker 2: you know, not across those sorts of specific issues. But

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Speaker 2: even if it requires and I'm thinking putting those that

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Speaker 2: come to contact with the justice system into a safe, safe,

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Speaker 2: secure cell that can be monitored, you know, on a.

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Speaker 4: Regular basis until such time as whether you know the

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Speaker 4: the the the person who's perhaps under alcohol or other

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Speaker 4: drugs or whatever the reason why that's triggering the golf.

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Speaker 4: I mean, let them settle and if it means contacting

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Speaker 4: appropriate you know, social workers, psychiatrists, psychologists that might be available.

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Speaker 2: I don't know whether the police employee those sorts of

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Speaker 2: professional workers that can take over the rest of the

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Speaker 2: made and put in these watch houses. So I think

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Speaker 2: we need to and that's why I think we need

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Speaker 2: to review that process to see if we can get

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Speaker 2: a more, a all better approach rather than this you

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Speaker 2: know of you know, if you get get out of

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Speaker 2: water or you know, I want to give us a

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Speaker 2: hard time, we're going to strap you in chairs and

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Speaker 2: put us on your I think we need to focus.

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Speaker 2: I want to have a discussion around with relevant stakeholders

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Speaker 2: and experts to see what is to model, and maybe

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Speaker 2: we look at those other jurisdictions to see what that

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Speaker 2: processes and see whether we want that done.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, John Patterson, I always appreciate your time. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've got plenty of respect for you. And I know

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Speaker 1: that sometimes our opinions can be different, but what I

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Speaker 1: like is that by the sounds of it, you want

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Speaker 1: to sit down and you want to you know, you

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Speaker 1: want to try and make sure that there's the best

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Speaker 1: possible outcome for everybody, a.

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Speaker 2: Win win for everybody. So it keeps the police safe,

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Speaker 2: it keeps the people that they're taking the custody is safe,

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Speaker 2: you know, and rather than everybody being put at risk

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Speaker 2: or you know, being put in serious sort of situations.

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Speaker 2: So and I think we can do it. I think

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Speaker 2: we can do it here, kat And that's why I

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Speaker 2: want to focus. You know, the leadership needs to rise

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Speaker 2: here and focus on the issue and the process. So

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Speaker 2: I think that's where we need to go.

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Speaker 1: Well, John Patterson, it's always good to speak with you,

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Speaker 1: the CEO of am SAND Thank you for your time

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Speaker 1: this morning.

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Speaker 2: Good on you, Katy.

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Speaker 1: Thank you