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Speaker 1: This is a podcast about failure with me.

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Speaker 2: Lola Berry, author, nutritionist, and yoga teacher, join me as

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Speaker 2: we get to know these guests and learn about how

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Speaker 2: their failures have ultimately shaped their dreams.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fearlessly Failing with Lola Berry.

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Speaker 3: Have I got a guest for you today?

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Speaker 2: I You know when you meet somebody and you cannot

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Speaker 2: stop talking about them, this is exactly what happened with

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Speaker 2: Candace Fox. She's an incredible author, crime fiction author, arguably

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Speaker 2: best in the country.

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Speaker 1: She works with the greats as well.

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Speaker 2: James Patterson, who's I think he's sort of a three

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Speaker 2: hundred million books. This I don't know what number this

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Speaker 2: book is The Chase, the brand new book for Candice,

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Speaker 2: because I said.

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Speaker 3: To her, what book number book is this?

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Speaker 2: She was like, wow, I'm writing number sixteen now, but

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Speaker 2: I think there's even another one. But anyway, my point

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Speaker 2: is she's a prolific writer. She's unreal. She's the exact

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Speaker 2: same age as me, but just had such a.

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Speaker 1: Wonderful, wonderful career.

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Speaker 2: Candace talks about facing two hundred rejection letters for publishing

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Speaker 2: before kind of like catching her first break. She is

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Speaker 2: fascinated with obviously crime. And even this most recent book

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Speaker 2: is all about these inmates that get let out of

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Speaker 2: prison and kind of follows not only their stories but

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Speaker 2: the warden story, so.

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Speaker 3: You kind of get to see so many different points

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Speaker 3: of view.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, I digress Candace Fox. She's incredible buckle in. She

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Speaker 2: literally interviewed a full blown serial killer on death row

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Speaker 2: at San Quentin in San fran Prison.

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Speaker 1: It's mind blowing.

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Speaker 2: If you're into human behavior, you're going to find this

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Speaker 2: a really interesting chat. Candace Fox. I want to be

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Speaker 2: friends with you. You are absolutely unreal and congrats on

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Speaker 2: the new book.

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Speaker 3: You're the best.

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Speaker 2: Candace Fox. I feel so sorry because I haven't even

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Speaker 2: let you talk. I've actually whisked you up from the

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Speaker 2: lobby of the hotel. I'm not even sitting in front

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Speaker 2: of the mic. I'm that excited to have you here

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Speaker 2: because I was like, anything I say, I'm gonna be

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Speaker 2: like and how did this happen? So I want it

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Speaker 2: to be on the pod. I want us to have

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Speaker 2: it down. So you are a incredible am I saying

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Speaker 2: this right? Crime fiction writer?

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Speaker 3: Is that your genre?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? Crime fiction?

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Speaker 2: Yet and you've done a plethora of about mazillion books.

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Speaker 3: How many?

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Speaker 5: Now is it.

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Speaker 4: I'm working on my sixteenth, so the chase would be

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Speaker 4: about the thirteenth, I think.

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Speaker 3: And you're working on your sixteenth now, Yeah, there.

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Speaker 5: Are there's two in the pipeline. I think, yeah, something

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Speaker 5: like that. It's hard to get my mind around it.

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Speaker 5: And one of them is an audio book.

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Speaker 4: There's one that's an audio fictional podcast that Audible is releasing.

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Speaker 5: So it's like, do you count that as a book totally?

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Speaker 3: Are you recording it?

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Speaker 5: No? They have actors and sound effects and stuff so dramatic.

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Speaker 5: I love it. Yeah, I never stop. I never stop.

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Speaker 5: I started the chase.

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Speaker 4: I think my daughter Violet was about six months old,

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Speaker 4: but I finished. I finished a book ten days before

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Speaker 4: she was born, and I started the next month, three

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Speaker 4: days after she was born.

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Speaker 3: No, you didn't.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I never stop. I never stopped.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to talk.

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited to get into the chase because I

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Speaker 2: messaged you on Insta. I binged the chase in three days, like,

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Speaker 2: I'm talking non stop. And we drove from from Barron

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Speaker 2: to Sydney and I said to my boyfriend, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: can I please not drive?

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Speaker 1: Like I've just really got to finish it so let's.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't put down. And I'm gonna be completely honest

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Speaker 3: with you.

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Speaker 2: I've never read crime fiction before, and now I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I've spent like all the last night I was youtubing you,

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Speaker 2: James Patterson, like old and I had no idea, Like

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Speaker 2: when your publicist emailed me about this book and you

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Speaker 2: I read the publicist send like a.

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Speaker 3: Hit point, like of all the things, like your.

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Speaker 2: Dad worked as a prison officer, is that right? Your

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Speaker 2: mom sounds amazing? I cannot wait to talk about Ocean

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Speaker 2: mermaids legally changing the name. And then I had seen

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Speaker 2: that you would interview to serial killer in real life. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 2: And that was where I was like, who is this girl?

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Speaker 2: Your publicist said? What I think is amazing about Candiceon

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Speaker 2: for this podcast is about failing? Did you get two

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Speaker 2: hundred rejection rejection letters before you got your first break?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I knew I wanted to be a writer very early,

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Speaker 4: and I was making it very very seriously. From about

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Speaker 4: age twelve. We got a family computer and I had

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Speaker 4: started writing short stories and things on there, and my

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Speaker 4: brothers started printing them out and like reading them to

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Speaker 4: me dramatically, like mocking me, and I remember saying to

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Speaker 4: my mom, I just can't work like this, you know,

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Speaker 4: I need my own computer. So I was pretty serious

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Speaker 4: about it pretty early on. And I think I got

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Speaker 4: my first rejection letter when I was about sixteen. And

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Speaker 4: then I just I just thought, right, you know, I've

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Speaker 4: never been someone who's liked people saying, you know, you

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Speaker 4: can't sit with us, or you're not good enough for ours,

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Speaker 4: you know, And I just got this very my very

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Speaker 4: first no.

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Speaker 5: And that just lit the fire.

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Speaker 2: I think i've heard you say in the interviews before

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Speaker 2: it actually inspired you. You saw like the publisher letterhead,

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Speaker 2: your name, the title of the book there, whatever you

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Speaker 2: were trying to get off the ground, because was it true?

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Speaker 3: You started writing that fantasy genre.

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Speaker 4: So I was very into Anne Rice, and I wrote

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Speaker 4: a lot of vampires where wolves ended the world kind

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Speaker 4: of stuff. Yeah, aliens, zombies, and I still love that

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Speaker 4: kind of stuff. I love to write that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 4: But I'll write it on the side maybe when I

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Speaker 4: have free ten minutes. But yeah, and so I started

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Speaker 4: sending stuff away and just, you know, just quietly, I

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Speaker 4: told my mum that I was submitting things, but I

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Speaker 4: didn't tell anyone else. Because I wasn't brave enough for

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Speaker 4: people to know that. And yeah, the rejection letters just

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Speaker 4: started flooding in, and I had a couple of false starts.

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Speaker 4: When I was very young, I received a letter from

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Speaker 4: what was called the New York Literary Agency, and it

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Speaker 4: was a very beautiful kind of letter with a big,

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Speaker 4: beautiful letterhead on it and gold it had like a

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Speaker 4: golden embossed bit.

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Speaker 5: On the envelope.

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Speaker 4: And you know, just getting male at all when you're sixteen,

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Speaker 4: You're like, this are.

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Speaker 5: So exciting as for me? What is it?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 4: And yeah, and they said, oh, we love your book,

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Speaker 4: and it had the title and everything, and it said

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Speaker 4: all you have to do is send us a two

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Speaker 4: hundred and fifty dollars reader's fee. And at that time,

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Speaker 4: my mum had four kids, and then she adopted two,

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Speaker 4: and then she was fostering up to six more kids

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Speaker 4: at a time.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't it like one hundred and fifty all up.

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Speaker 4: One hundred and fifty five all up across my childhood.

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Speaker 4: So two hundred and fifty bucks was a.

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Speaker 5: Lot of money, you know, And so we sent it

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Speaker 5: away and then they were like, oh, we just need

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Speaker 5: another two hundred and fifty dollars readers fee, and we

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Speaker 5: just need another two hundred and fifty, you know. And

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Speaker 5: then they were like, we're sending it to our senior

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Speaker 5: editor and all this, And I know, I.

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Speaker 3: Never heard of a reader's fee is a thing.

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Speaker 5: It's a thing. It's a thing. Yeah, but.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, people should be very very wary if there are

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Speaker 4: any aspiring authors out there about paying for people to

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Speaker 4: read your way.

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Speaker 3: I've never heard of that.

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Speaker 2: But I write books too, but very different health and wellness. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I've never heard that. But as an author, I've got

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Speaker 2: to say that. I opened up your dedication page of

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Speaker 2: the chase. Yeah the aspiring authors, and yeah, says to

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Speaker 2: all the aspiring authors, never give up. And I sent

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Speaker 2: it to a couple of mates that are writers, and

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Speaker 2: I was like.

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Speaker 3: You need to see that.

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Speaker 5: It's so nice. It's it's hard. It's so hard to

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Speaker 5: get published.

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Speaker 4: It's you know, I looked up the stats on it

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Speaker 4: at one point, and you are four times more likely

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Speaker 4: to contract syphilis.

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Speaker 5: And you're ten times more likely to.

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Speaker 4: Be struck by lightning. Yeah yeah, I ran those stats myself. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: so getting lightning from syphilis, you are you are fifty

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Speaker 4: times in a likely No, that's actually.

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Speaker 5: That's actually true. It's hard and you think.

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Speaker 4: About, you know how easy it is if you're an

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Speaker 4: aspiring author to just say to yourself, this is never

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Speaker 4: going to happen, because you know there are twelve I

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Speaker 4: read an article in the Guardian and it said that

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Speaker 4: there are twelve people in the country making a living

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Speaker 4: from this for full time.

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Speaker 2: And as an author. Yeah, twelve people.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that was in you know, two thousand and six

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Speaker 4: or whatever it is. But there was a study recently

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Speaker 4: and it wasn't it wasn't much better. Just if you're

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Speaker 4: an author, you have to have a side hustle type

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Speaker 4: of thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 4: And my dream was to be one of those twelve people,

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Speaker 4: I suppose. So it's kind of like wanting to represent

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Speaker 4: Australia in the Olympics or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Just one hundred that's what it sounds like with those stats.

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Speaker 2: And you and I had this exact same age, and

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Speaker 2: so it's so nice seeing someone just go after their

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Speaker 2: dreams and just be on the top of the mount

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Speaker 2: And the other thing that I've noticed listening to you,

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Speaker 2: because before I researched you, my commitment was to I

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Speaker 2: had to finish the chase like I was in it.

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Speaker 2: I was, I was invested, had my faves, you know,

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Speaker 2: And then I was like, now I want to get

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Speaker 2: to know Candas. And I was like, oh, so normal,

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Speaker 2: grounded and down to earth, and like your books are

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Speaker 2: printed over fifteen different languages, Like you know, you're killing it.

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Speaker 5: Oh thank you. You know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: You seem very like humble, grounded, down to earth.

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Speaker 4: I make an effort to do that because I think

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Speaker 4: that there's a perception.

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Speaker 5: That being, you know, an author in.

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Speaker 4: Particular, you got to have some kind of magical genius

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Speaker 4: to you, like you, oh, I speak to muses, or

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Speaker 4: I've bloody done my PhD or something, or you have

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Speaker 4: to know a publisher and you have to be part

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Speaker 4: of a rich family and all this kind of stuff.

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Speaker 4: And I just feel like people ought to know, like

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Speaker 4: I'm from Banks ten, yeah you know, I'm from Sydney's

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Speaker 4: West and I went to a public high school and

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Speaker 4: I just, you know, I just chased it and chased

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Speaker 4: it and chased it.

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Speaker 5: And a lot of it was fueled by, like I say,

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Speaker 5: by that anger of people saying you.

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Speaker 4: Can't you know, you can't be a part of this

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Speaker 4: group and me going, I'll show.

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Speaker 5: You yea, I.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely love it.

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Speaker 2: So would you say the inspiration for kind of like

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Speaker 2: writing crime dad being a parole officer, mum fostering so

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Speaker 2: many kids. So I've heard you say like police officers

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Speaker 2: will drop these kids off and kind of tell your

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Speaker 2: mum the story. Yeah, so you're hearing you're kind of

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Speaker 2: like absorbing all this kind of Plus, Also, wasn't your

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Speaker 2: I'm like brilliant reading crime as well? And did your

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Speaker 2: dad have the magazines like police magazines?

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Speaker 4: It was a huge the voyeuristic family. We just like

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Speaker 4: to be right where the drama is, that right where

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Speaker 4: the chaos is at. My mum is one of those people.

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Speaker 4: If there's a crime scene, there's police tape, she'll wander

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Speaker 4: up to the.

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Speaker 5: Edge of the police state and be like, hey, what's

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Speaker 5: going on? Or's so much amazing? You know, she has

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Speaker 5: no subtlety whatsoever.

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Speaker 4: And so yeah, she would have police magazines lying around

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Speaker 4: with like horrific photos in them, and you know James

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Speaker 4: Patterson novels and true crime stuff just around like not

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Speaker 4: locking it up or anything. Like.

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Speaker 5: She had stuff in her The best stuff.

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Speaker 4: Was in her bedroom. I'd go in there and i'd

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Speaker 4: read like the car I'd have a look at the

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Speaker 4: Karma Sutra, like she had the joy of Sex, and

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Speaker 4: I would read that one, and then i'd be straight

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Speaker 4: into the true crime, like and you flipped to the

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Speaker 4: middle where they've got the glossy pages with the pictures.

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Speaker 5: Oh my god.

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Speaker 4: But she's also someone who she's so engaged in true crimes.

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Speaker 4: She'll tell you. And I remember her saying, Oh, if

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Speaker 4: anyone ever comes up to you when you're a kid

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Speaker 4: and says, oh, I've lost my puppy, can you help

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Speaker 4: me find my puppy.

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Speaker 5: Never go with them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I'd go why, and she'd go, well, because

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Speaker 4: there was this woman named Myra.

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Speaker 5: Hindley, and she would just go and tell me. And

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Speaker 5: she'd be like, and nanny she took him and all

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Speaker 5: this that. I'm like seven, you know, I'm hearing this

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Speaker 5: horrific stuff.

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Speaker 4: And my dad, Yeah, my dad would come home from

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Speaker 4: the prisons and say, oh, you know, this guy's slid

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Speaker 4: his throat with a lid of a Tunican, or this

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Speaker 4: guy got stabbed or whatever, or this guy's in for

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Speaker 4: this or that, and yeah, I was just hearing. There

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Speaker 4: was just no filter. There's no filter, I went from

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Speaker 4: zero to ten, you know, just yeah, And it's affected

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Speaker 4: me a little bit. Dissenters desensitized me a little bit

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Speaker 4: because if I'm watching a Netflix series or something and

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Speaker 4: no one's dead within the first episode, I'm like, do.

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Speaker 5: I really can we move on? De's a bit more

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Speaker 5: you know, high stakes? Yeah.

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Speaker 4: But in other ways, if I am reading or listening

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Speaker 4: to crime or something and I hear something that really

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Speaker 4: disturbs me and I go down into that Wikipedia, well, yes,

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Speaker 4: that's when I know I'm really passionate about it. And

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Speaker 4: what is the theme of that? Is it like motherhood?

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Speaker 4: Is it innocence? And escaping?

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Speaker 3: Is it captivity?

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Speaker 5: Whatever it is?

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: So I did exactly that last night.

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Speaker 2: I watched an interview with you and you had written

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Speaker 2: two for two years, and then sat down and interviewed

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Speaker 2: the Toolbox killed.

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Speaker 3: One of the killers, and I was like, oh my god.

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Speaker 3: Being a nine to.

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Speaker 2: Eighty five kid like I had, so, I was probably

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Speaker 2: too young to have been totally aware of it. But

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Speaker 2: then as soon as I'd dive down that rabbit hole,

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Speaker 2: watch sho doco on YouTube, and I was like, oh

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Speaker 2: my god, and you're and so the guy that you

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Speaker 2: spoke to. That was Lawrence Bittaker Bittika. Is it true

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Speaker 2: that you were literally in a cage with him, there

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Speaker 2: was a sniper on him, he touched you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah yeah, but so so so that sounds it

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Speaker 4: sounds really brave and amazing that I went there and

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Speaker 4: experienced that. But actually I had no idea that was

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Speaker 4: going to happen. Like I wrote to Lawrence, because I

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Speaker 4: watched a documentary on him. I wrote to him and

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Speaker 4: I basically, you know, not in these words, but I

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Speaker 4: basically said, I am a crime author.

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Speaker 5: All I do is think about monsters all day long.

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Speaker 5: You are the most monstrous person that I've ever heard of.

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Speaker 4: Like, yeah, you know, what you did was so horrifying

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Speaker 4: that it's disturbed me, of all people.

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Speaker 5: So I want to I want to ask you some questions.

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Speaker 5: Can I come visit?

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Speaker 4: He was like, hell, yeah, come visit. You know this

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Speaker 4: would be great. And so when you go to San

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Speaker 4: Quentin to death Row to visit these guys, they give

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Speaker 4: you the visitors handbook, which is an a four sheet

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Speaker 4: of paper, you know, double sided.

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Speaker 5: It's like it's not a book.

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Speaker 4: Okay, that is my first complaint, and it says, you know,

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Speaker 4: these are to visit times, and this is where you

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Speaker 4: should park, and this is what you should and shouldn't

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Speaker 4: wear when they're very specific about that, and and this

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Speaker 4: is what you.

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Speaker 5: Can and can't bring, and it says nothing about what

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Speaker 5: you're actually going to experience when you get there. And

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Speaker 5: so Tim said, how long is it?

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Speaker 4: But he's my husband. Tim said, how long is this visit?

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Speaker 4: I said, I don't actually know.

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Speaker 5: And he said, and so what do you do? You

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Speaker 5: like you sit behind glass? I said, I imagine you

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Speaker 5: sit behind glass with a.

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Speaker 1: Phone like that Ted Bundy scene at the very end.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

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Speaker 4: And so I get there and I get into the prison.

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Speaker 4: I get in death row, and I've been searched and

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Speaker 4: yelled at and bloody, told to walk on a line

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Speaker 4: and all this, and.

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Speaker 5: It's all very very secure.

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Speaker 4: And then I get there and I said, to a

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Speaker 4: god here to see Lawrence Bittaker.

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Speaker 5: Where do I go?

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Speaker 4: And he said, oh, you're He's going to be in

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Speaker 4: that cage there. So it's a floor to ceiling yeah,

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Speaker 4: sharp cage basically is steel mesh like holes were like this,

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Speaker 4: and then bullet glass all around the inside and his

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Speaker 4: big door with book push glass and I said, okay,

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Speaker 4: he's going to be in there.

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Speaker 5: Where am I going to be? And the guard's like

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Speaker 5: in there, oh, and I said at the.

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Speaker 2: Same time yeah, and he's like yeah, he said, you

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Speaker 2: looked at the visitor's handbook and I was like, it's

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Speaker 2: not a book.

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Speaker 4: It's a piece of paper and it didn't say anything

356
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Speaker 4: about this.

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Speaker 5: And you know what the.

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Speaker 4: Scariest part is is that they brought him out and

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Speaker 4: he was cuffed and everything, and they put him in

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Speaker 4: the cage, and they put me in the cage and

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Speaker 4: they shut the door, and he put his hands through

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Speaker 4: the mesh so that they could uncuff him, and they pad.

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Speaker 5: Locked the door, and then they walked away, the guards.

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Speaker 4: And the whole time that all that was happening, I

365
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Speaker 4: didn't say anything because I didn't want to be rude.

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Speaker 5: I thought, I don't want to be rude to this guy.

367
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Speaker 4: I'm basically I'm basically locking myself in a cage with

368
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Speaker 4: a tiger because I don't want to be rude.

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Speaker 5: Do the tiger.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I just allowed this to happen. And then and

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Speaker 4: then I said to him, okay, you know, and there

372
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Speaker 4: was all these pleasantries of like oh something, thanks for

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Speaker 4: coming to see me on all this, and I said

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Speaker 4: to him, well, I'm a little bit surprised that this

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Speaker 4: is happening.

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Speaker 5: And he said what I said, this.

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Speaker 4: Like we we were sitting closer than you and I

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Speaker 4: are sitting right now. And he said, oh, yeah, it's

379
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Speaker 4: a full contact visit.

380
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Speaker 5: We can touch each other if you want.

381
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Speaker 4: And he put his hand out shake my hand, and

382
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Speaker 4: I was like, oh, thank god you specified what kind

383
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Speaker 4: of you touching you was suggesting, because oh wow. And

384
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Speaker 4: I shook his hand and I said, you know, I

385
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Speaker 4: don't want to give you any ideas, you know, but

386
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Speaker 4: what happens if you like lunge at me or something?

387
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Speaker 5: Yeah, like Hannibal lecto style. Yeah. And then I thought,

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Speaker 5: why did.

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Speaker 6: You, of all people to not bring that up with

390
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Speaker 6: And he said, oh, you know, if you look outside

391
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Speaker 6: the cage there there was like a triangle in the

392
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Speaker 6: co owner of the ceiling cut out and he said,

393
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Speaker 6: there's a rifle man there.

394
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Speaker 4: He's gonna he'll shoot me if anything goes down. And

395
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Speaker 4: I was like, I have so many problems with that.

396
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Speaker 4: I don't even and he was like, didn't you read

397
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Speaker 4: the visitors handbook?

398
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:12,120
Speaker 6: Yeah?

399
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,040
Speaker 4: I was like, don't even don't even start. Don't even

400
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:16,760
Speaker 4: start me on that.

401
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Speaker 5: Oh my god.

402
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Speaker 2: This is in America right versus here, it would be

403
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Speaker 2: quite different here.

404
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,480
Speaker 4: I have been to Lithgo maximum security prison, and that's

405
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,680
Speaker 4: not the worst of the worst, like Supermax.

406
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Speaker 5: You know, you would never get into Supermax to visit anyone,

407
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,680
Speaker 5: I wouldn't think. But they have different at list Go,

408
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 5: they had different situations.

409
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 4: So they're sitting together, and then there's sitting with glass,

410
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,159
Speaker 4: and then there's the really bad guys like the terrorists

411
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,040
Speaker 4: and people who are underwatch.

412
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Speaker 5: They have like a blacked out situation.

413
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 4: Wow, they sit in a box and there's just like

414
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,960
Speaker 4: a slot that they can see through.

415
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,480
Speaker 5: And then yeah, to meet with their lawyers and stuff.

416
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Speaker 2: Of course I could ask you, can I ask you

417
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,280
Speaker 2: one more thing about It's Lawrence right at his IQ

418
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 2: was like genius level.

419
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,080
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, And you could tell that because he was

420
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,440
Speaker 4: telling me different things that he does in his cell.

421
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 4: You know, he can build he can build a cooker

422
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:19,239
Speaker 4: out of his you know, toaster, and he's fixed his

423
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,360
Speaker 4: he had fiddled around with his typewriter, so I can

424
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,320
Speaker 4: do that. He's very mechanically minded and tricky, and he

425
00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,960
Speaker 4: would smuggle pieces of himself out of the prison to

426
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 4: sell online because there are people who want to buy

427
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,800
Speaker 4: locks of his hair and like tone ol clippings and

428
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 4: stuff on the internet that's legit.

429
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:38,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

430
00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's called murderabilia. It's like memorabilia, but it's murder.

431
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 4: And so he had all these tricky ways of doing that.

432
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 4: So you can see he's very smart. But I was

433
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,520
Speaker 4: expecting like your Hannibal Lecter type, you know, someone who

434
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:57,120
Speaker 4: evil owns their crime and is proud of it almost,

435
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,480
Speaker 4: but he was not. He was just an in sipid

436
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,679
Speaker 4: old man who's you know. He was just ready for

437
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,359
Speaker 4: me to be girlfriend number five because he already had

438
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 4: four girlfriends.

439
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,640
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, he was just trying to recruit me as

440
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 5: girlfriend number five. And I just was like yeah, and.

441
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:16,880
Speaker 3: Was it five hours?

442
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:17,920
Speaker 5: Five hours? Yeah?

443
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.

444
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,639
Speaker 2: And that when you got out to get yourself a snack,

445
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 2: did he say yes?

446
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 3: When you were like, do you want anything?

447
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 2: Yeah?

448
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 5: This is the moral questions.

449
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,119
Speaker 4: The moral questions started from that first letter where I

450
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 4: wrote dear Lawrence, and then I was like.

451
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 5: Yes, that should I just got Lawrence or to Lawrence.

452
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 4: And then you know, I'm I had to go to

453
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 4: the bathroom and I was really hungry because I was

454
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 4: expecting a one or two hour visit. Meanwhile, my husband's

455
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,640
Speaker 4: at home googling San Quentin, murder, san Quentin, you know, riot,

456
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 4: this kind of thing. But I said, do you want

457
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 4: anything from the vending machine? And I'm thinking, is it

458
00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 4: really like, does he deserve anything ever from any anywhere?

459
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,159
Speaker 4: But yeah, I went to the vending machine and I

460
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 4: got him some chips, and then I had some chips.

461
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,199
Speaker 4: And it was a couple of hours in, so I

462
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,359
Speaker 4: was thinking, well, he hasn't done anything yet, so I

463
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:12,880
Speaker 4: was kind of relaxed a little bit.

464
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,199
Speaker 5: And I'm there and I'm eating. I'm eating chips, and

465
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 5: he's eating chips and I was like, these are the

466
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 5: best chips in America. And he was like, yeah, they're good,

467
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 5: aren't they. And I was like, oh, you enjoy the

468
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 5: same chip? Yeah, you know, yeah, I get so's he's

469
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 5: just like an animal, and he was he is dead now,

470
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,399
Speaker 5: but I keep talking about him like he's still alive.

471
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 4: But you know, people treat him like an animal. There's

472
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,679
Speaker 4: all the chains and walking them here to there, and

473
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 4: the gun trained on him and all that, and he

474
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 4: just he's very animalistic in his life. He just sits

475
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 4: in a box for twenty three hours a day and

476
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 4: then for an hour a day he's allowed to go

477
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 4: to a bigger box and that kind of thing.

478
00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 5: And and I say all that, like, and.

479
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 4: People are probably thinking I'm saying, oh, Paul Lawrence or whatever,

480
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 4: But that's that's what else could you do with him?

481
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 5: He can't he can't exist in society.

482
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, because because I've heard you say in an interview,

483
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 2: because he was getting compared to Manson and being worse considered. Yeah,

484
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 2: he was like and the other guy that was the

485
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 2: toolbox kill was like really confessed to Yeah, I'd fully

486
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 2: been like, I'm a monster, I confess to what I've done. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

487
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,959
Speaker 2: whereas Lawrence is like, well really only these years I

488
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 2: was mad.

489
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 3: I was good before that.

490
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 4: His ways of rationalizing it were really terrifying. Like he

491
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 4: genuinely was sitting there saying to me, for thirty three

492
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 4: years of my life, I was, you know, this sweet guy,

493
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 4: lots of friends, you know, and then I, you know,

494
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 4: law abiding and all this, and this just this three

495
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 4: months period where I just murdered these five women. And

496
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,199
Speaker 4: you know, he didn't even say it like that. You know,

497
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 4: he said, these five women ended up getting killed. It's

498
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 4: like instead of saying I killed these but you know,

499
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 4: in this little period, you know. And he called it

500
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 4: a phase of his life. And then since then, since

501
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 4: I've been arrested, same thing. I'm very popular, law abiding

502
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 4: inside the prison, he said. So if you look at

503
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 4: my life as a whole, really I'm not that bad.

504
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 5: And yeah, he's.

505
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 3: Just like that's you are.

506
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 2: You really are the sociopathy, isn't it. Yeah, and super

507
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 2: psychopathy because when he I think you also said like

508
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,120
Speaker 2: he numbered the girls, not the net didn't yeah, which

509
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 2: is like really distancing.

510
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 5: Yeah.

511
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 4: And he when he would write the letters, it was

512
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 4: all abbreviated, like he would refer to them as V

513
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,360
Speaker 4: three like victim number three V.

514
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 6: Five.

515
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

516
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 4: I said to him, what was your plan? You know,

517
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 4: were you just going to keep killing women, you know,

518
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 4: until you were arrested or what? And he said, oh,

519
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 4: by the time I got to number five, and he

520
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 4: said what was her name? And I said Andrea, And

521
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 4: he goes, well, whatever name was like that his hand, yeah,

522
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 4: And I just went, oh, that's the little snack of.

523
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,719
Speaker 5: That's the real you under there. And then the war

524
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 5: comes up again and it's all of this Oh poor me.

525
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, just that little whatever her name was,

526
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 4: you know, and I was trying to describe what his

527
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 4: attitude to the wards.

528
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 5: These women were like, it's like if you.

529
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 4: Killed a mosquito and twenty years later somebody said to you.

530
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 4: You were in the room at the time the mosquito

531
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 4: was killed. We know you like to kill mosquitos, and

532
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 4: that mosquito was in the prime of its life and

533
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 4: his family is so upset.

534
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 5: And you'd be like, it was a mosquito. Come on,

535
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 5: I don't even remember doing it. I probably did it

536
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 5: last week and I don't even remember.

537
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 3: You know, it's like like that, that's crazy to think that, right.

538
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 2: Yes, I do want to get on to your book

539
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: because I think it's so amazing. But I also listened

540
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: to you talk about an interview where Tim and you

541
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 2: were on your way all wedding and people are talking

542
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 2: about their favorite proposals, and you're like, well, there's this

543
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 2: great proposal and you shared Ted Bundy's proposal.

544
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 3: Can you please just reenact that?

545
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 4: Oh my goodness, because because see, my life is now

546
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 4: is all about doing just weird stuff that I've always

547
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 4: wanted to do.

548
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 5: Well, I've always been, you know, so so you know,

549
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 5: you walk.

550
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 4: Into my office unexpectedly and the computers full of horrific

551
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 4: crime scene photos or or I'm talking to someone and

552
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 4: I say, I have an amazing, you know, a story

553
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 4: about a bombing.

554
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 5: And it's not weird because.

555
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 4: I'm a crime writer and everyone knows. But this is

556
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 4: back in the day, and I'd published like two books

557
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 4: and nobody, nobody really knew who I was. So well,

558
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 4: I was in this car and we were car pulling

559
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 4: to this wedding and you know, there was another couple

560
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 4: in there, and and the people were talking about how

561
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 4: did you propose t Tim and all this kind of stuff,

562
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 4: and I was sitting there and I'm thinking to myself,

563
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 4: I have a great proposal story, and I don't know

564
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 4: if I should say it.

565
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 5: And I sit there and I go, is this weird?

566
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 5: Is this weird? Is this weird?

567
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 4: And I go, I don't care if it's weird, I'm

568
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 4: going to say it. And I said, you know, Ted

569
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 4: Bundy proposed to his girlfriend in court and she said yes,

570
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 4: And the fact that they did it in the courtroom

571
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 4: made the marriage illegal and nobody can stop them. And

572
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 4: they did it and one of the ladies said, who's

573
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 4: Ted Bundy.

574
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 5: And I was like, oh my.

575
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 4: God, all right, let me tell you a story. And

576
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 4: I told her all of this, and the mood in

577
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 4: the car was just coming down and down and down,

578
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 4: and it was just getting quiet. And then Tim goes

579
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 4: candas is a crime writer, and everyone went, oh, yeah, yeah.

580
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 5: You saved the day. But you know, I'll be sitting there.

581
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 4: My my in laws had to get used to it.

582
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 4: Like just yesterday, literally yesterday, my in law had this

583
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 4: big torch and I'm sitting there and I'm looking at him.

584
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 4: He's got the torch and he's putting new batteries in

585
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 4: and all this. And I said, so, I was listening

586
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 4: to this true crime podcast about this guy that got

587
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 4: a torch in the mail and and and he was

588
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 4: clicking the torch and he handed it to his son,

589
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 4: clicking and clicking it.

590
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 5: Where is this torch come from? Why doesn't it work?

591
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 5: Let's go and get some more batteries. And the son

592
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 5: went out to the kitchen to.

593
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 4: Get some more batteries and bang, it exploded and just

594
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 4: blew this guy to pieces.

595
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 2: And my father in law would have been like, yeah, yeah,

596
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: oh my god.

597
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 5: He was used to it. He's used to it, but

598
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 5: also very interesting. He was like, who sent the torch?

599
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 5: And I'm like, well, it's unsolved, but they thought that

600
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 5: it might have been. This isn't it.

601
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 4: It's just it's just it's just I have so many

602
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 4: stories bursting with them all the time I talk to

603
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 4: you for five hours.

604
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: Is it Is it true that Ted Bundy is one

605
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 2: of your fat not favorites, because that's, yeah, someone that

606
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: you're fascinated.

607
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 4: I am fascinated by because I'm just fascinated by killers

608
00:28:59,000 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 4: who bunked the train.

609
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 5: And he uh, he had this personality that could, on

610
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 5: the one.

611
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 4: Hand, encompass this charismatic, funny, smart law student, you know,

612
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 4: ladies man, this kind of thing, and on the other.

613
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 5: End of the scale, he's you know, killing women and driving.

614
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 4: Up into the mountains and putting makeup on their bodies

615
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,239
Speaker 4: and stuff and changing their clothes and things, and that

616
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 4: is so surreal and weird and horrifying, And it's just

617
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 4: his personality is so large that it encompasses both of them.

618
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 2: And wasn't in a relationship for a lot of the beginning,

619
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 2: and when he was like a loving relationship, yes, yeah,

620
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: and then still murdering on the side.

621
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 4: On the side, Yeah, and you find that uh Dennis

622
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 4: Raider who called himself bt K Bryan Torture Kill.

623
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 5: Yeah.

624
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 4: He had a wife and kids as well, and a

625
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 4: seemingly normal life. It's it's quite common, and Lawrence had

626
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 4: girlfriends and things all the way along and and you.

627
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 5: Know, because they're there.

628
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 4: I said to Tim afterwards, if you had met Lawrence

629
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 4: as he was as I met him in the Shark

630
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 4: Cage at a bus stop, you'd think, oh, you know,

631
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 4: there's a friendly old man. Yeah, and that's what Yeah,

632
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 4: that's what's terrifying is he's someone like that pulls over

633
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 4: and it's raining and they say.

634
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 5: Oh, hey, you want to ride home and you don't want.

635
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 4: To be rude, yeah, you know, and he also seems

636
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 4: nice so you get in and.

637
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you know, oh yeah, for.

638
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 5: My, For my I think it was my fifth novel.

639
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 4: I was writing about a child sex offender and I thought,

640
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 4: who is your classic child sex offender in the Australian psyche.

641
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 4: It's someone like Dennis Ferguson. Of course, you know, he's

642
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,719
Speaker 4: like old and ugly, and he's got a facial twitch

643
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 4: and stuff.

644
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 5: He's hideous to look at. And and that is.

645
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 4: Someone if you walking down the street with your kid,

646
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 4: you'd see him and you'd cross and you you know,

647
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 4: so who who do we not expect?

648
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 5: Yeah?

649
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 4: As and it's and so in that the child sex

650
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 4: offender is a young guy in his twenties and he

651
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 4: has a girlfriend, and he lives next door, and he

652
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 4: has a job and all this it's like and that's

653
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 4: what gets gets people and they think I didn't expect that.

654
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: Yes, this I'm going down such a tangent here, but

655
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 2: I feel like it's open for me as well.

656
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, plenty of time, We got plenty of time.

657
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:31,719
Speaker 3: Good good.

658
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 2: I got really sucked into mind Hunter as well, because

659
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: like understanding the human behavior aspect, the trigger aspect, the childhood,

660
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 2: like looking back, and that's even last night with Lawrence,

661
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: like I was like went down to childhood.

662
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you.

663
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 2: Know, And it's so fascinating mind Hunter, even that that

664
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: book that was written, so it was a do you

665
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: know when I talk about mine, Yeah, they're.

666
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 5: Jes John Douglas and yeah the other guy.

667
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 2: I study acting And that's now one about recommended acting

668
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: books to understand human behavior. Yeah yeah, yeah, but yeah,

669
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: I found that so interesting when there was I think

670
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 2: it was an Edmund the co ed co ed.

671
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 5: Kill edd Edmund Kemper, and he.

672
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 2: Was so lovely and helping and so the way you

673
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: describe really lovely.

674
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 4: And he has actually narrated like a thousand audio books

675
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 4: for the public Library system in the US. So if

676
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 4: you look up a free if you have like a

677
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 4: free copy of Sherlock Homes or something that you want

678
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 4: to you know, stuff that's like in the public domain,

679
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 4: and you listen to it online, you might you might.

680
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 5: Be getting him.

681
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 3: Wow, he is.

682
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's another example of just but but I think

683
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 4: that they're just these psychopaths and and you'd have to

684
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 4: say all serial killers are psychopaths, with the rare exception.

685
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 5: They're just used to mimicking.

686
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 4: Human behavior and they tell you what you want to know,

687
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 4: and it's and that's you know, not all all psychopaths

688
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 4: are serial killers. There are business people who are like that,

689
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 4: you know, and.

690
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 5: You hear about guys.

691
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 4: Oh, he looked me right in the eyes and he

692
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 4: was telling me everything, and I felt like he really

693
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 4: saw me and we connected.

694
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 5: And all that, and it's just it's just all strategy.

695
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, crazy, Oh, scary, but I find it so fascinating

696
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 2: and this I do. I really want to talk to

697
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 2: you about the Chase, because, like I said, this is

698
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 2: my first So you tell me what I need to

699
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: read next of yours because I could not put this down,

700
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: like I literally I'm joing five different podcasts this week,

701
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 2: and three of which authors and I was trying to

702
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, read a.

703
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 3: Bit of this book this day, a bit of this

704
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 3: book this day.

705
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: The second I started your side of yours, everything went

706
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: out the window.

707
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 4: My apologies to those authors, whoever they are.

708
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 2: But anybody's listening to this, you know, or the first

709
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: ever at crime fiction author I've ever had on this podcast,

710
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 2: anyone that's listening to this, please do yourself a favor

711
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: and get your hands on the Chase.

712
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 3: Can you give a quick rundown.

713
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 5: Of what to expect?

714
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 4: So it starts out there's a bus in the desert

715
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 4: and it's heading for a prison called prong Horn, and

716
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 4: the friend, the family, members of guards and staff inside.

717
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 5: Pronghorn are on the bus.

718
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 4: So we're talking wives and husbands and girlfriends and children.

719
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 4: So someone calls the prison and says, I've got a

720
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 4: gun on that bus I've just shot the driver. The

721
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 4: bus has stopped, and I'm going to light the thing

722
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 4: up unless you release some inmates.

723
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 5: And so the Wharton says, who do you want me

724
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 5: to release? And they say everyone. So the entire prison

725
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 5: is emptied into the desert. So there's six hundred.

726
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 4: And fifty three inmates on the run now. And I

727
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 4: just take you through the stories of some key people.

728
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 4: So we follow Selene Osborne, who is the supervisor of

729
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 4: death Row, so she's in charge of the worst of

730
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 4: the worst, and she is out to recover one inmate

731
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 4: in particular, that's John Cradle, who murdered his family, and

732
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 4: Selene has very personal reasons for wanting him locked back up.

733
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 4: She hates his guts, you know. And then we have

734
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 4: Trinity Parker, who is the US Marshal assigned to the roundup.

735
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 4: And then I take you two different people in the outbreak.

736
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 4: I take you to some victims, and there's a lawyer

737
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 4: and there's a serial killer getting around. So I have

738
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,760
Speaker 4: little little chapters throughout where you just visit certain people,

739
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 4: just wants to see how they experienced the breakout.

740
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,959
Speaker 2: And I found like I'd end up really like early.

741
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,439
Speaker 3: On, I was going for Selene. Like at the start, I.

742
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 2: Was like, oh, okay, okay, Selene, like let's get everyone.

743
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was team Slen.

744
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: But then as obviously and I don't want to give

745
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: anything away, but as it unfold, I was like, hang

746
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 2: on a.

747
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 3: Minute, this is there's gotta be some justice done here,

748
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 3: you know, all like something's got to unfold.

749
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: And yeah, you had me right to the very last word.

750
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 2: And I read in the acknowledgments at the back you

751
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 2: did go to You mentioned the prison earlier in Sydney.

752
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 5: Yeah, I did. I couldn't believe that because I wrote

753
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 5: to a friend of mine who works in corrections, like

754
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 5: just almost as a gag. I thought this is never

755
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 5: gonna work.

756
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 4: I said, hey, I'm writing a book about prisons and

757
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 4: I'm hoping again inside one.

758
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 5: Can you help me out?

759
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 4: Like literally that was the email, and he goes, yeah, sure,

760
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 4: what kind of prison do you want?

761
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 5: Old? New minimum maximum? I was like this is amazing pic.

762
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

763
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 4: I said, oh, well, you know, as maximum as you

764
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 4: can get, and he said, yeah, all right, we'll go

765
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 4: out to Lithgo and so I went there. And it's

766
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 4: another situation where I didn't want to ask you many

767
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 4: questions because I like to be surprised. And yeah, they

768
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 4: just let me in and they gave me a big

769
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 4: tour and it was clear that the staff knew that

770
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 4: I was coming, but the inmates didn't know, because we

771
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 4: would come into areas and the inmates were like, oh,

772
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 4: who's that. You know, she's walking around with the governor

773
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 4: is what they call the warden in Australia. And I

774
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 4: had like a pair of guards and things just just

775
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 4: in case anything went down.

776
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, scary. It was scary, yeah, because we were in

777
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 5: rooms with.

778
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 4: Big groups of inmates, big big groups of the worst, worst.

779
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 5: Inmates in the country.

780
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 4: And you could see that as soon as you're walking,

781
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 4: you can see people are starting a whisper and like

782
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 4: we should do something, you know, And that's what we

783
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 4: never spent any more than like two minutes. Yeah, So

784
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 4: we went in this workshop and they were there was

785
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 4: a it was a sewing room and they were sewing.

786
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 4: They were hemming sheets for hospitals, and there were these

787
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 4: two guys just doing laps of the room because they're

788
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 4: pacing everywhere.

789
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 5: Everyone's pacing.

790
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 4: You look on the cameras and you can see men

791
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 4: pacing and pacing in their cells. Yeah, it's like a

792
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 4: psychological phenomenon. People in captivity.

793
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 5: They pace really yeah, like tiger tigers.

794
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

795
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 4: And so they were doing laps, going around and round

796
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 4: and around because you can't make them work.

797
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, And if they turn up and they.

798
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 4: Don't do any work, they get like six cents, and

799
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 4: if they turn up and actually do work, they get

800
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 4: like seventeen cents.

801
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 3: Got it.

802
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 5: So we were standing here.

803
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 4: And the guys are going around, and then suddenly for

804
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 4: the next lap, there's four guys going around because they

805
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,439
Speaker 4: have to go right past us. And then there's six

806
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 4: guys going around and they're going to come around and

807
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 4: they're going.

808
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 5: To do something. And the governors just went, okay, let's

809
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 5: go like we've got to get out of here, you

810
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 5: know type of thing.

811
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 4: And and she also when we're out in the yard,

812
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 4: some guys started cat calling, yeah, and so she was

813
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,479
Speaker 4: trying to talk over the top of him and shall

814
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 4: we just go this way? So I couldn't hear you

815
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 4: know what I was saying. I was like, don't worry

816
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 4: about it. It's okay, Like what are they going to say?

817
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 4: You know that I haven't heard, but you know that

818
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 4: everyone they managed it really well.

819
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 5: Like the worst thing. Some guy saw me like.

820
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,959
Speaker 4: Through some he was in another yard with some mesh,

821
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 4: and he like grabbed his crutch like yeah.

822
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 5: This time thing. And I was like, you know what,

823
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 5: who has what? Lady hasn't had that done in a

824
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 5: bar or something somewhere.

825
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 4: You know, but I the governess had been punched in

826
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 4: the face the day before. Yeah, and so I was like, wow,

827
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 4: if she if an inmate can punch her, yeah, I'm

828
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 4: going to get something thrown at me. I'm going to

829
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 4: get I'm going to get something.

830
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 2: I heard you describe it almost felt like a school

831
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 2: would feel at nighttime.

832
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but a bit more cagey, right, Yeah.

833
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, it looked like a school, like it was sort

834
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 4: of flat and huge, and the buildings were all sort

835
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 4: of painted that that.

836
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 5: You know, government cream and then you.

837
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 4: Know the floors or like polish concrete and stuff, and

838
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,879
Speaker 4: it had like the echo of a school to it.

839
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 4: But yeah, nice gardens and everything.

840
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 5: You know. What I was struck.

841
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 4: By is how many young young men that they were

842
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 4: were there and then also handsome really, and I think

843
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 4: to myself, it's stupid because I think to myself, you

844
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 4: are so young and so handsome. What the hell are

845
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,240
Speaker 4: you doing here with a face like that? Why didn't

846
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 4: you go and you know, do anything? But that's not

847
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 4: how crime works, obviously. But it's the same assumption again.

848
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 4: You think to yourself, he's so young and so handsome,

849
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 4: he couldn't possibly have a hard time in life, or

850
00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 4: he couldn't possibly have any criminal proclivities because he looked nice,

851
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 4: you know, And then you think that is a terrible

852
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 4: way to think, you know about people.

853
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 2: Also understandable though that you think that initially, like your

854
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 2: initial filter.

855
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 3: I was saying to you just before we started.

856
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: I had an actor on here yesterday because it wentworth

857
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 2: and they're all in their teal like every scene into

858
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 2: toe teal.

859
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 3: Is there a color that's water litho.

860
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 5: I believe it was dark green?

861
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 3: Got it?

862
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 5: I know it's dark green at Long Bay, and I

863
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 5: believe it was green or.

864
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 3: Was it in America?

865
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 4: So in Lawrence's section that was denim in the death row,

866
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 4: And so when you're going in you can't wear any

867
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 4: denim at all.

868
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 5: You can't wear any any dark blue.

869
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 4: Really, Yeah, I don't know about the inmates and the

870
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 4: rest of so.

871
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 3: Interesting I could like, I know this.

872
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 2: Is I just find it so so so fascinating. I've

873
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: got to ask you because I feel like you would

874
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 2: have the perfect answer for this.

875
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 3: Anyone that listening that is like me and.

876
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 2: New to crime fiction, if you've got to have a

877
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 2: favorite true crime podcast, right, Oh my.

878
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 5: God, now you're asking me to choose my favorite children.

879
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 2: I started listening to Live and Die in LA and

880
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 2: I spend a lot of time which is a true.

881
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 5: Crime heard that one here? There are so many sharing

882
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 5: as is yeah.

883
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 2: And I because I do a lot of work in LA,

884
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, I just stop it because

885
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 2: I was like, this is going to be me and

886
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 2: this will happen to me. I was flipping out, like

887
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:35,399
Speaker 2: it was too it felt too scary. Wow, La ones

888
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 2: I get too scared with So I never watched.

889
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 3: An the Man.

890
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 4: Okay, well let me just let me just tell you

891
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 4: like a handful of really really good ones.

892
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 5: So there's for.

893
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 4: People who like long stories and lots of color that

894
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 4: unfold over you know, eight episodes. There's one called Someone

895
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 4: Knows Something, which is excellent, very emotional. The the host,

896
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 4: David gen is very personable. For short, really disturbing crime

897
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 4: ones that are like one crime per episode.

898
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 5: I like Sword and Scale.

899
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:17,240
Speaker 4: Okay, And for a humorous kind of take on crime.

900
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 4: I like the last podcast on the Left. I just

901
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 4: did an interview with them, which was like, Wow, I

902
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 4: can't believe I got to be on that podcast.

903
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 5: And also my favorite murder okay, he's also good. Yeah,

904
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 5: there's just so many.

905
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 4: Oh, you know I'm listening to recently is the Gary

906
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 4: Jubile and one I don't know it.

907
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 5: He's like the hot shot, you know, homicide detective in

908
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 5: Australia and he's been he's been fired, and he's doing

909
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,439
Speaker 5: different things at the moment and he's it's just him

910
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 5: sitting having chats with police that he has known. Oh

911
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 5: it's so funny, it's so interesting.

912
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what about this is a very selfish question,

913
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: what's the next book that I should read?

914
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 4: Oh? Look, I have a bunch of different series. So

915
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 4: I'll tell you the first book in each of the

916
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 4: series and then you can So Hades is my first series.

917
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 3: And even an Awards straight away.

918
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah for that, yep.

919
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 4: And so that's Hades, even Fall, that's in one series.

920
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 4: There's Crimson Lake, Redemption Point and Gone by Midnight that's

921
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 4: another series.

922
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,919
Speaker 5: So Crimson Lake is being turned into a TV show,

923
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,240
Speaker 5: so I can read that now then they'll be prep

924
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 5: your p I'm really proud of Crimson Lake as well.

925
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 5: Like The Chase. It was one of those.

926
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 4: Things, those books where I said to my agent, my publisher,

927
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 4: this is what I'm planning to do, and they went.

928
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 5: That sounds huge. Like Crimson Lake has three different crimes

929
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 5: in it.

930
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's past present and all this kind of stuff,

931
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 4: and of course this is a breakout, a mass breakout

932
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 4: with like twelve different perspectives or something.

933
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 5: They were like, how are you going to do that?

934
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 5: And I was like, well, you just you just watch

935
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 5: you just didn't watch. Yeah, I'll show you how I

936
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 5: do it.

937
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to start with Crimson Like next, I've

938
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,280
Speaker 2: got to ask a funny author thing that I heard

939
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 2: about in an interview. He did you put out to

940
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: your audience who are like, hey, I'm going to write

941
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 2: someone into one of my books.

942
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, okay, what people.

943
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 3: Literally writing to you going don't want to be a detective?

944
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, murder me, please murder me.

945
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 4: It's really weird as psychologists will probably study it. But

946
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 4: every book lately, I've started giving away spots in the

947
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 4: novel and you can win them by doing different things.

948
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 4: Sometimes I raise money for charity or whatever.

949
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,240
Speaker 5: So yeah, the first time.

950
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 4: I ever did it, there was a huge influx of

951
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 4: people wanting to be in the book. And this woman said,

952
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 4: if I win, She wrote to me and she said,

953
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 4: if I win, can I put my son in the book?

954
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 5: And I said, yeah, sure, why not?

955
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 4: She said he's eight and I said yeah, okay, sure,

956
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 4: no problem, she said, and can you murder him Bruce brutally?

957
00:45:59,640 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 6: Bruce.

958
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 5: I was like, sure, yeah, why not. I'm thinking she's

959
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 5: not gonna win, like it'll be okay.

960
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, weird requests people have.

961
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 5: It's it's it's it's hard.

962
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 2: So I was talking to my podcast managers yesterday and

963
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: I was saying, I'm so excited I've got Cannice Fox

964
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,320
Speaker 2: on the podcast tomorrow. I was like, I've never consumed

965
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 2: a book that fast in my life. And they said,

966
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 2: you know, you obviously know the true crime and crime

967
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 2: fish is massive, like it's a big, huge genre. And

968
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, like I've heard that the demo's

969
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 2: like huge and female base. And someone one of my

970
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: podcast managers said, you know that women read the victim

971
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: part usually from their own perspective, and it becomes like, well,

972
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 2: I know how to handle myself the way your mum was, like,

973
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 2: well this happened, yeah, and don't say you know, don't

974
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 2: say yes to go on with the part of the

975
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 2: person that's going to show your puppy, because that's what's

976
00:46:58,320 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 2: gonna happen.

977
00:46:59,080 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

978
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 2: Cparently like it's a psychological protection thing where women read

979
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 2: potentially like victim things and me like, well, I know

980
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 2: that I can get out of that situation.

981
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do.

982
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 4: It's one yeah, and I've heard women say that before,

983
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 4: like oh, you should just do this or do that.

984
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 5: Or I yeah. It's funny.

985
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 4: I have always tried to think of myself as as

986
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,280
Speaker 4: as tough, like oh I would I would go fine

987
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 4: in a fight, or I would get my keys out

988
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 4: and all this.

989
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 5: Kind of stuff. It's funny.

990
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 4: When I actually faced the serial killer for the first

991
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 4: time in a dangerous situation, my mind just went.

992
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 5: Scratch him, scratch his face.

993
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I just had this whole psychological urge like

994
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 4: if he comes over here, just scratch him.

995
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 5: You know.

996
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 4: And I thought later, I was like, that's not what

997
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 4: I should I should kick him or I should punch

998
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 4: him on, like, don't scratch him. So I don't know

999
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 4: how useful some of that knowledge is in the moment,

1000
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 4: but I have heard that.

1001
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 5: About women reading women reading.

1002
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 4: Crime because it's a safe way to be scared and

1003
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 4: then to get over the top of you know, you

1004
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 4: see the perpetrator. Yeah, away, and that kind.

1005
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 3: Of full circle. Yeah yeah, So you can kind of

1006
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 3: put it to bed and literally be like, okay, there's.

1007
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 2: An inters okay, yeah, yeah, Oh my goodness. I could

1008
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,479
Speaker 2: honestly just pick your brains forever and ever and ever.

1009
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 2: And I just think you're wonderful, A massive fan in

1010
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 2: me as well. Now, so the final thing when I

1011
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 2: asked you do when we finish is can you sign

1012
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 2: my book? Yes?

1013
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 5: I will, of course I will. Thank you.

1014
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 3: You are wonderful canvas.

1015
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 2: And I'm going to put linksol in the show notes

1016
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 2: so everybody can get their hands on your brand new book,

1017
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 2: The Chase.

1018
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 3: It's incredible.

1019
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 5: Thank you.

1020
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 2: That's a wrap on another episode of Fearlessly Failing. As always,

1021
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 2: thank you to our guests, and let's continue the conversation

1022
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 2: on Instagram. I'm at yumo lollaberry. This potty my word

1023
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 2: for podcast is available on all streaming place forms. I'd

1024
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 2: love it if you could subscribe, write and comment, and

1025
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 2: of course spread the love.