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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, the purpose of pocket money is so that you

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Speaker 2: can learn about money. The purpose of jobs, duties, chores,

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Speaker 2: whatever you want to call them around the house is

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Speaker 2: so that you can contribute, because.

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Speaker 3: You're not about responsibility.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're making the best.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Do you have any idea how strong our eight year

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Speaker 3: old is.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure where you're going with it. No, yes,

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Speaker 2: I mean I think so. She tries to push me

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Speaker 2: off the bed when we're playing.

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Speaker 3: You know how, sometimes you'll use a teaspoon or a

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Speaker 3: tablespoon to scoop out some ice cream. Yes, and inevitably

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Speaker 3: if the ice cream is so hard that it actually

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Speaker 3: bends the spoon. Yeah, well, we have one spoon in

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Speaker 3: our cutlery drawl that is bent like that, and I

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Speaker 3: assumed that it was because of the ice cream. Thankfully,

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Speaker 3: it's one of the cheap ones. It's just one that

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Speaker 3: I have brought from k Mart. So when the kids

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Speaker 3: take yogurt to school or whatever, they've got a teaspoon

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Speaker 3: to take with them. They don't take our good ones.

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Speaker 3: So the other day Emily comes in and she's like, mom, Dad,

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Speaker 3: look how strong I am. And she literally in front

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Speaker 3: of us a bench, this teaspoon all the way over

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Speaker 3: as you're screaming at her, no, no, no, don't do that.

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Speaker 2: Well I wasn't screaming, but I was saying no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: don't what are you doing?

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Speaker 3: And she looked at us with pure delight, and she said,

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Speaker 3: don't worry.

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Speaker 2: It goes back.

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Speaker 3: But what she doesn't realize it goes back with a

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Speaker 3: kind of little wonky bend in it now, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: We've got the wonkiest, wonkiest teaspoons in our draw. And

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Speaker 2: that's why, because Emily is having fun demonstrating her strength.

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Speaker 2: I thought you were talking about strength as in how

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Speaker 2: strong willed she is. Have you noticed. So we've got

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Speaker 2: six kids. Obviously, one's moved out and other one's about

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Speaker 2: to move out. A third one has graduated high school.

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Speaker 2: But nevertheless we have six kids. All of them wake

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Speaker 2: themselves up in the morning, they get themselves, they make

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Speaker 2: their breakfast, they make their lunch, they do it all.

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Speaker 2: Except just in the last few days, I've noticed every

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Speaker 2: single morning you and I are literally together trying to

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Speaker 2: get the eight year old through the morning. So I

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Speaker 2: was standing there trying to brush her hair and carry

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Speaker 2: her into you at the same time that you were

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Speaker 2: trying to put her socks on and get her skirt

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Speaker 2: on because she was still running around her rundies, because

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Speaker 2: she'd been playing with lego and reading a book and

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Speaker 2: coloring in and painting and doing anything and everything she

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Speaker 2: could to not go to school.

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Speaker 3: There is just zero motivation to go to school.

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Speaker 2: She's happy enough to be there once she's there, but oh,

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Speaker 2: my goodness, And I just thought to myself, are we

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Speaker 2: doing it wrong? But getting cranky doesn't make any difference.

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Speaker 2: We just have to I'm playing these games with her

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Speaker 2: in the morning, try to get her ready for school.

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking, my goodness, can't you just be like your

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Speaker 2: big sisters? And then I remember we kind of went

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Speaker 2: through variations of this with all of the kids at

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Speaker 2: a round about this age. I mean, it's just being

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Speaker 2: a parent. It's taxing. So it's so taxing.

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Speaker 3: Well, what are we talking about today?

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Speaker 2: Oh, there's so many things. I feel like I just

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Speaker 2: want to waffle. I just want to talk to you

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Speaker 2: about stuff. I want to talk to you about my.

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Speaker 3: This is the podcast for the time Pool parents. I

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Speaker 3: think that I need to move you along.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about the book title for my

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Speaker 2: new book that's coming out. I want to anyway, That's fine,

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Speaker 2: We'll do that another day. Any suggestions, writes Luke. Every

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Speaker 2: Tuesday we ask you to send us your questions and

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Speaker 2: via podcasts at happy Families dot com dot you. Luke

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Speaker 2: has been in touch and said any suggestions on how

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Speaker 2: to undo my three years of Barefoot investor jars and

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Speaker 2: jobs method. My kids are pretty rigid in doing only

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Speaker 2: the jobs they're paid for. I read a book that

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Speaker 2: you recommended called Punished by Rewards by Alfie Cohne, and

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Speaker 2: I knew straight away what we were doing was not

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Speaker 2: going to work with pocket money. It's tough now getting

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Speaker 2: my kids to help out without the money method from Barefoot.

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Speaker 2: Any suggestions would be great, Thanks, Luke. So Kylie. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I love what's Scott Paper's done for the financial literacy

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Speaker 2: of the nation, including our family, and I really like

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Speaker 2: a lot of what he talks about. But one thing

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Speaker 2: that I've said multiple times on the podcast is the

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Speaker 2: getting paid for jobs thing is problematic for me. I'm

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Speaker 2: still trying to get him on the podcast. I want

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Speaker 2: to talk to him about this and talk to him

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Speaker 2: about his brand new book. So I'm working on getting

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Speaker 2: him on the podcast. But that doesn't mean I'm going

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Speaker 2: to agree with everything that he says. And this is

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Speaker 2: one of those things, and Luke has pinpointed it, we've

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Speaker 2: been doing barefoot. We're paying the kids for jobs. We

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Speaker 2: don't actually want to do it anymore because they're super

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Speaker 2: rigid in only doing the jobs they're being paid to do.

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Speaker 2: So what do we do because we want them to

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Speaker 2: actually help out a little bit more.

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Speaker 3: So, like you said, a huge amount of what Scott

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Speaker 3: shares in his book is so beneficial for our kids,

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Speaker 3: super helpful. You know, they learn about budgeting.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: For kids who just get everything handed on a silver platter,

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Speaker 3: it's really hard for them to recognize and understand the

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Speaker 3: value of money. So his approach of helping them to

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Speaker 3: kind of separate their earnings into digestible easy compartments.

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Speaker 2: Free jar spending, saving, giving, it's great.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it helps them to understand, you know, budgeting. It

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Speaker 3: allows them to have a sense of delayed gratification, that

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Speaker 3: idea of saving for something, recognizing that just because they

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Speaker 3: want it doesn't mean that they can have it. And

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Speaker 3: then understanding how long it actually takes to say that

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Speaker 3: the money to get that thing that they're looking forward to.

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Speaker 2: And so that ties in with this psychological thing that

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Speaker 2: we call frustration tolerance. When you have a high level

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Speaker 2: of frustration tolerance, it means that you get that it's

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Speaker 2: going to be hard for a while, but if you

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Speaker 2: can push through a hard stuff, it will be worth it.

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Speaker 3: Even just that goal orientation, you know, understand it, like

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Speaker 3: setting a goal and working towards it. I think it's brilliant.

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Speaker 3: And then there's also the capacity for responsibility. You know,

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Speaker 3: this idea that if you want something that you need

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Speaker 3: to work for it, and therefore you have a responsibility

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Speaker 3: to fill a requirement.

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Speaker 2: And what I also like about Scott's idea is if

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Speaker 2: you're going to get paid for the jobs. There's one

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Speaker 2: job or there's two jobs, and every Sunday we sit

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Speaker 2: down and we just say did you do it or not?

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Speaker 2: And you get paid or you don't. I kind of

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Speaker 2: like it. It's straightforward and it's done. But my argument

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Speaker 2: is that your kids can learn all of those things

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Speaker 2: without tying pocket money to chores. Your kids can learn

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Speaker 2: about delayed gratification and saving and budgeting and giving to others,

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Speaker 2: and they can learn about being responsible without having pocket

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Speaker 2: money and chores tied together. So if I was to

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Speaker 2: look at it from a psychological perspective rather than a

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Speaker 2: purely financial perspective, what I would argue is that number one,

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Speaker 2: as Lucas said in his email, when you pay the

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Speaker 2: kids to do a certain chore, it undermines motivation. I

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Speaker 2: love the way Alfie Cohne says it in his book

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Speaker 2: Punished by Rewards. He uses the phrase when we use

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Speaker 2: any of these sort of extrinsic or external rewards or

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Speaker 2: punishments to manipulate behavior. What we're saying is do this

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Speaker 2: and you'll get that. And you can have a sugarcoat

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Speaker 2: version of that, that's the pocket money and chores version

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Speaker 2: to this, and you get that, or you can have

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Speaker 2: the mean, nasty, punitive version. If you do this, you

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Speaker 2: will get that. But it's the same sentence, it's the

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Speaker 2: same words, and what it does is it removes the

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Speaker 2: focus on this that is cleaning up your bedroom or

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Speaker 2: being nice to your sister or whatever, and puts the

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Speaker 2: it for some that the punishment or the reward, and

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Speaker 2: it therefore elevates the punishment and reward and diminishes the This.

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Speaker 3: When I think about the conversations that we've had with Alphie,

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Speaker 3: that's the thing that actually stands out to me. He says.

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Speaker 3: You know, if you want to reward a child for reading,

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Speaker 3: what you actually do is diminish the value of reading.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're saying five dollars is more important, or the

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Speaker 2: pizza is more important that you're going to get than

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Speaker 2: the book itself that you're reading.

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Speaker 3: It actually really blows my mind that when you put

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Speaker 3: it like that and you recognize this is an amazing

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Speaker 3: thing that you get to do, you get to read,

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Speaker 3: and yet by attaching a value to it, you undermine

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Speaker 3: the very thing that you want to do. And so

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Speaker 3: it's the same with this principle of we are a

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Speaker 3: part of a family and we want to be able

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Speaker 3: to work together and achieve the outcomes as a whole.

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Speaker 3: And yet what you're doing by attaching a price tag

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Speaker 3: to it is saying that the money is actually the motivation,

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Speaker 3: that the money is that the important thing, and there's

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Speaker 3: a value system that we're trying to create, because that's

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Speaker 3: what it is, right it's a value system.

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Speaker 2: Beautiful, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: It's actually not that important.

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Speaker 2: So research also tells us, although it's perhaps a little

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Speaker 2: less obvious with something like chores and pocket money, but

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Speaker 2: when we're doing it, do this and get that approach,

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Speaker 2: When we're using the external motivators like pocket money, it

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Speaker 2: reduces creativity. So the kids are less likely to be

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Speaker 2: creative in terms of the way that they contribute in

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Speaker 2: the house or their motivation for it. But it also

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Speaker 2: ignores reasons and it ruptures relationships. They're the big ticket

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Speaker 2: items that our fa cone talks about all the time.

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Speaker 2: And there's also the simple reality that rewards are ultimately

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Speaker 2: a punishment. When I say do this and you'll get that.

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Speaker 2: Clean up your room and I'll give you five bucks.

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Speaker 2: If I walk in and I'm not happy with the room,

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Speaker 2: then I say, sorry, you're not getting the five dollars. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, the child feels like a victim.

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Speaker 2: It makes them well, especially when the.

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Speaker 3: Child feels like they're given their very best as well.

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Speaker 2: Right, it might be justified. They might have done allows

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Speaker 2: your job, they could have been lazy, they might have

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Speaker 2: had a whole lot of attitude, but you've promised a

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Speaker 2: reward and now the rewards not being delivered, And regardless

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Speaker 2: of the context in which it's not being delivered, the

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Speaker 2: child still feels like they're hard done by. So it

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Speaker 2: undermines the relationship. They become less motivated, they feel like

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Speaker 2: they're alwyes being controlled, and it's a less effective way

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Speaker 2: to get the kids to contribute around the home. And

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Speaker 2: a lot of people when they hear this conversation, they'll say, oh, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: but real life, like you have to go to work

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Speaker 2: to get paid. That's the way the world works. And

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Speaker 2: I would counter that by saying that when I come

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Speaker 2: home Kylie from work, you don't pay me to help

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Speaker 2: out with the kids, or clean up the kitchen, or

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Speaker 2: tidy up my mess or put my wife.

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Speaker 3: It's just a job, right, Well.

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Speaker 2: But I don't get paid for that. I do it

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Speaker 2: because I'm motivated. I'm motivated to have a good relationship

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Speaker 2: with you. I'm motivated to have a clean house. I'm

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Speaker 2: motivated to make a contribution because I know it matters.

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Speaker 2: I'm motivated because I want the children to see that

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Speaker 2: a husband and father makes a contribution.

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Speaker 3: I guess in a bigger sense, you know, if I'm

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Speaker 3: out and about and I see somebody fall down, I'm

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Speaker 3: not an ambo.

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Speaker 2: It's not my job, right, Okay, yeah, yeah, what are

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Speaker 2: you going to give me if I help you?

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Speaker 3: But I do that because that's kindness.

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Speaker 2: How often are you out and you see someone fall down?

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Speaker 2: I'm just curious that's Have you ever seen that happen?

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Speaker 2: Or was that just a sort of a random thing.

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Speaker 3: It was just a rand thing.

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Speaker 2: I was wondering if people are just falling down around

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Speaker 2: But I know they' shot plenty of times.

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Speaker 3: And because I'm a tall person, there'll be older people

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Speaker 3: who often can't reach the top shelf.

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Speaker 2: Yeah gotcha, I don't work there.

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Speaker 3: Why would I get it for them? I mean it's

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Speaker 3: that mentality, right. And if we teach our kids that

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Speaker 3: the only way for them to move forward and do

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Speaker 3: something in their life is if they're going to get

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Speaker 3: paid for it, then we've.

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Speaker 2: Got a lot of people to go anywhere.

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Speaker 3: They've got blinders on.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what you've heard me say this? The kids,

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Speaker 2: work out what industry you want to work in, and

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Speaker 2: go and work for free for someone. Get the experience,

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Speaker 2: learn what it's like, don't worry about getting paid. Just

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Speaker 2: go and prove to them that you're interested and keen.

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Speaker 2: You become so much more valuable as a result. Do

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Speaker 2: it for free because you're intrinsically motivated. Anyway, we're kind

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Speaker 2: of getting off the topic, So what do we do

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Speaker 2: to help Luke who's now got a child, who's basically saying,

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Speaker 2: what are you going to give me? What do I

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Speaker 2: get for me?

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Speaker 3: As I listened to Luke's story, I'd be going back

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Speaker 3: to grassroots. I'd be calling a big family meeting, probably

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Speaker 3: a pajama party with lots of sugar.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say out the popcorn on the

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Speaker 2: treats or the milkshakes, and.

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Speaker 3: Talk about the pros and cons, what's going well in

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Speaker 3: our family right now, what's not and how can we improve?

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Speaker 3: How do we want our family to be? What does

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Speaker 3: it like when our family is functioning at its best,

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Speaker 3: what does it feel like? And how often do we

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Speaker 3: get to feel like that we're not doing very well

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Speaker 3: at the moment? Why aren't we And let's kind of

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Speaker 3: brainstorm on why that is and how we can be better.

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Speaker 2: So I'm inclined to get really directed in a meeting

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Speaker 2: like this as well and say, since we've been paying

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Speaker 2: you for jobs. And it's been three years now. You've

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Speaker 2: gotten reasonably good at doing these jobs. But whenever we

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Speaker 2: ask you to do anything else, we have tantrums. So

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Speaker 2: here's what we're thinking. We think we need to come

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Speaker 2: up with a new way to build contribution and willingness

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Speaker 2: to help in our home. What do you reckon? Where

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Speaker 2: do we go from here? So bring the kids in,

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Speaker 2: get their input. The other thing I said this before,

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Speaker 2: but I want to go back to it. That is

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Speaker 2: that all of those things that the barefoot approach teachers,

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Speaker 2: what was it like kids learning about budgeting and saving

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Speaker 2: and giving and delayed gratification, responsibility, all those things. You

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Speaker 2: can teach your children financial literacy without them having to

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Speaker 2: work to get pocket money at home. So in our home,

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Speaker 2: and so all of our kids except our youngest to

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Speaker 2: have jobs. So we're only paying pocket money to the

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Speaker 2: two youngest kids now, and therefore it's a much simpler

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Speaker 2: process than it used to be. But with all of

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Speaker 2: our children, as we've given them pocket money, we've still

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Speaker 2: had three jars, and we've still let them know that

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Speaker 2: the purpose of pocket money is so that you can

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Speaker 2: learn about money. The purpose of jobs, duties chores whatever

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Speaker 2: you want to call them around the house is so

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Speaker 2: that you can contribute, because you're not about responsibility. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're making the mess. But we keep them. We've always

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Speaker 2: kept them separate. When our kids have gone off to

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Speaker 2: work at fifteen or fourteen or sixteen or whatever it's been,

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Speaker 2: none of them have had a hard time adjusting to

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Speaker 2: life in the real world. And they still don't come

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Speaker 2: home and say, oh, yeah, but I shouldn't have to

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Speaker 2: do this because I've got a job now. Like, they're

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Speaker 2: still willing to contribute and help out around the home.

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Speaker 2: And yeah they still do with winging, whining, sooking, annoying

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Speaker 2: noises every now and again.

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Speaker 3: But you and I still win wine our jobs. Right,

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Speaker 3: It's just part of life, you know. I was thinking about.

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Speaker 3: Luke hasn't shared number one, how old the kids are,

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Speaker 3: But a couple of thoughts have just come as we're talking.

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Speaker 3: The first thing, I think it can be really powerful

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Speaker 3: at this point to actually sit the kids down in

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Speaker 3: this meeting and tell them that you've got it wrong.

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Speaker 3: You've actually got it wrong. You've read a book you

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Speaker 3: thought it was amazing, and there are so many positive

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Speaker 3: things that have come at it, but you're looking at

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Speaker 3: it now and recognizing that it's actually it's not a

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Speaker 3: right fit for our family. I think that's really powerful.

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Speaker 3: But then the second thing is if you've got younger kids,

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Speaker 3: it could be really hard to kind of share some

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Speaker 3: of these concepts with them, these values that you want

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Speaker 3: to instill. And a fun way that you could do it,

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Speaker 3: I think would be whatever your favorite recipe is. Let's

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Speaker 3: just say it's chocolate cake for threes and everybody is

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Speaker 3: a different ingredient. If we want to work together as

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Speaker 3: a team, what happens if there's no eggs in our cake?

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Speaker 3: How does that work?

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Speaker 2: I'm just trying to pull together what So you're saying

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Speaker 2: I should go in the kitchen and bake a cake,

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Speaker 2: but leave one of the recipe items out of the

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Speaker 2: cake and see how it turns out, taste it, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then talk. So that's that's a great So we

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Speaker 2: should do that this weekend. That's amazing.

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Speaker 3: So I'm mum, right, I've got to be the flower.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: And if I'm the only one doing it, do you

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Speaker 3: really want to have a bowl of flour for dinner?

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Speaker 2: Right? No? Okay no?

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Speaker 3: But when we all work together and when you think

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Speaker 3: about a recipe, there might be one teaspoon of something,

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Speaker 3: and yet there's two cups of another thing. Is that

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Speaker 3: not what family life is like. Mum does the majority

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Speaker 3: of the effort, but everybody has a part to play.

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Speaker 3: You try and make a recipe that's supposed to have

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Speaker 3: bicarb soda in it, which is usually half a teaspoon

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Speaker 3: to a tea spoon, and don't put it in and

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Speaker 3: see what that does to your recipe. Every single person

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Speaker 3: plays an important role in the functioning of any anything,

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Speaker 3: whether it be a team you.

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Speaker 2: Know, small in some ways right, or a household.

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Speaker 3: Or a job. We all play a part and it's

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Speaker 3: such a powerful way to kind of just pull it

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Speaker 3: all together and show kids what it means to be

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Speaker 3: a part of a team.

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Speaker 2: I love that. I was going to wrap up the

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Speaker 2: podcast and then you've come out with an absolute cracker.

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Speaker 2: That's just fantastic. So I had a couple of other

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Speaker 2: ideas really quickly, and we need to wrap this up now.

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Speaker 2: But in the meeting you might talk about the kids.

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Speaker 2: Talk to the kids about putting together a hybrid system.

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Speaker 2: So we've done this in our home where the kids

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Speaker 2: have jobs, duties, chores. It just has to be done.

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Speaker 2: But if they want extra cash, there are a couple

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Speaker 2: of jobs that they can do for a bonus ten

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Speaker 2: bucks or a bonus twenty bucks if you want tonest jobs.

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Speaker 3: These jobs aren't the jobs that actually are required on

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Speaker 3: a weekly buses have the house function. These are extras.

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Speaker 2: So I'm owe the lawn. But if one of the

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Speaker 2: kids wants to mow the lawn for an extra ten

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Speaker 2: to twenty bucks because they're going out and they want

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Speaker 2: some money, I'm pretty happy to give them twenty bucks

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Speaker 2: so I don't have to go out and get dusty

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Speaker 2: and dirty.

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Speaker 3: I take the car down to the car wash, but

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Speaker 3: if they want to earn five or ten dollar there,

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Speaker 3: then by all meats, I wash my car.

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Speaker 2: I just want to highlight that you say you take

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Speaker 2: the car down to the car wash, but I reckon

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Speaker 2: it's been about seven months.

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Speaker 3: Well you usually take the car to the car wash,

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Speaker 3: and you haven't done it for seven months.

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Speaker 2: All the money that I would have spent at the

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Speaker 2: car wash, I'm now spending on filling up the tank.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, So Luke, we hope that that's been really helpful.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland for

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and if

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Speaker 2: you'd like more and foul about making your family happier,

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00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,280
Speaker 2: please visit us at Happy families dot com dot you OH.

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Speaker 2: A quick reminder as well, it's Black Friday this week.

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Speaker 2: because we are about to unleash the annual Black Friday

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