1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Right now it's Will and Woody hog it after it 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: is Oil and Woodye. I'm saw all of you have 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: seen the news today about a Yarra Valley school where 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of boys did some awful things and 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: writing a list and classing a whole bunch of other 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: women in their year group. I've got to advise everybody 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: there's a content warning on this because this gets pretty hectic. 8 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 2: An elite Melbourne school has suspended four year eleven boys 9 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 2: over a disgraceful online ranking of their female classmates, as 10 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 2: exclusively revealed by Today as Christina Hern, the spreadsheet ratings 11 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 2: WiFi is cuties, mid object, get out and most disturbingly unrapable. 12 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: All right, So I just want to start by saying 13 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: how awful this must be for the girls they're affected 14 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: by that. Just to wake up one day and know 15 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: that that's how you being spoken about and have obviously 16 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: just done nothing to deserve that. That really sucked. And 17 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: you know, we had a good chat about with the 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: women and our team as well, and it's really great 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: to hear from them and get their perspective and remind 20 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: Woody and I of that as two guys talking about 21 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: this and I think that as two guys we who 22 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: have a lot of young men listening to us, I 23 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: think we we kind of put our heads in the 24 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: sand and sort of feel scared to talk about this, 25 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: or we can recognize our influence on a lot of 26 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: young men and try and do our part to stop 27 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: this sort of stuff from happening again. And the first 28 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: part I want to say in that to all the 29 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: young men listening is to admit to you guys, that 30 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: Woody and I grew up in a similar climate. And 31 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: I think that maybe there aren't men who would admit that, 32 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: and so we know this doesn't excuse it, but we 33 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: know how inescapable that kind of language and that kind 34 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: of approach to women is. And I think I just 35 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: wish it that age, that I had somebody who was 36 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: there to educate me, even though you know you have 37 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: the right people who eventually end up in your life 38 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: who tell you how rank that is it is. I 39 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: don't think there's enough of a premium taught early enough 40 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: to boys about how to think about women. And I 41 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: think that's really the big problem here. And I think 42 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: it's almost irresponsible just to lean on this idea of 43 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: I'm sure that there will be a punishment for these boys, 44 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: and there should be a punishment for these boys, but 45 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: that is for me, a lazy solution in a lot 46 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: of ways, punishing these kids when they're sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, 47 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: when they should be thinking about how we're stopping boys 48 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: younger from objectifying and thinking about women as objects and 49 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 1: categorizing them. And I think that only can start by 50 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: educating them in the right way. 51 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 3: And someone who's done a lot of work in this 52 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 3: area is doctor Stephanie Wescott, who's in Education culture at 53 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 3: monash Uni. First of all, welcome doctor Stephanie. 54 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 4: Hi, Thanks so much for having me. 55 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 3: You are so welcome. First question, just to continue on 56 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 3: from what Will was saying, how do we stop boys 57 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 3: objectifying women or speaking about women. 58 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: In this way? 59 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 4: Well, this is a really big question and it's one 60 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 4: that we're grappling with as a nation because we have 61 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 4: a crisis of violence against women in this country and 62 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 4: these two things that we're talking like, you're talking about 63 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 4: what's happening in this one school, but it's happening in 64 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 4: lots of schools around Australia, I would say most of them. 65 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 4: And we're talking about one woman being killed every four days. 66 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 4: And these two things are directly related because if we 67 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 4: objectify women, it means where that's grounded in disrespect towards them, 68 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 4: and we know that that's what eventually would escalate to 69 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 4: violence against women. So we need to change our national 70 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 4: conversation how we talk about women, and that starts in 71 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 4: the home with families, how we're talking to our wives 72 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 4: and partners. How are we talking about women and to them. 73 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 4: But there's a role at schools obviously have to play 74 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 4: here as well. Schools are already doing lots of good stuff, 75 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,119 Speaker 4: but there's lots more that we can do. But yeah, 76 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 4: it's got to be a whole like a nationwide approach 77 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 4: and a school like a school wide approach as well. 78 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: So Doctor Stephanie, one of the things that sort of 79 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: comes up, and we actually talked to Kate Langbrook a 80 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: little bit about this later in the show, and I 81 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: mentioned it before, is this idea of pawn As you 82 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: just mentioned, we were saying there was a CD that 83 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: got handed around I think when I was like fourteen, 84 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: and that was pretty much my first introduction to watching 85 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: people have sex. And you know, you're not naturally teenagers 86 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: are uncomfortable talking to adults about sex. But I remember, 87 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: you know, one of the first videos I watched, and 88 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: again I'm just warning for kids listening and stuff, maybe 89 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: this is a good thing. There was like a lot 90 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 1: of choking involved and like slapping and stuff that I 91 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: just know, just given that that's the first thing that 92 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: you're looking at so quickly normalize. And then how does 93 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: that then turn into objectifying a person and more importantly, 94 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: how do you sort of reverse that into trying to 95 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,559 Speaker 1: educate guys to see women as more than just something 96 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: that they should desire and make them an object. 97 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 4: Well, I think it doesn't even have to be pornography. 98 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 4: Like with in my research, we've been looking at people 99 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 4: like Andrew Tate and how the things that they that he's, 100 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 4: the thing that he says, how that changes how boys 101 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 4: see and treat women and girls. So it doesn't have 102 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 4: to be those extreme things like violent pornography. It can 103 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 4: literally be what they see on Instagram or on TikTok, 104 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 4: or what they see broader in our society, like how 105 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 4: men maybe in the AFL treat women and then you 106 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 4: know those men are allowed to continue playing football, for example, 107 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 4: or how the boys around them at school talk about 108 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 4: girls and women. One thing that we do really need 109 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 4: to do, which I think you probably would have benefited 110 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 4: from and a lot of other boys too, is having 111 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 4: open conversations without judgment and without reprimand about what boys 112 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 4: are seeing online and how it's making them think about 113 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 4: girls and women and what ideas they have about girls 114 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 4: and women that comes from that sort of stuff, And 115 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 4: that stuff happens in schools already. Teachers are really good 116 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 4: at doing that kind of stuff. Parents have a role 117 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 4: there as well to have conversations, but it has to 118 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 4: be open, and it has to be without judgment. And 119 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 4: when we have conversations like that, it's a good opportunity 120 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 4: to say, you know what, that's not realistic, that's not 121 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 4: a true depiction of women, that's not on And so 122 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 4: if we let it all out in the air, that's 123 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 4: a really helpful start. 124 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: All right, cool, doctor Stephanie, Can you say with this 125 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: because we would love you too. I think we've got 126 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: so many more questions. I think this is comfortably the 127 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 1: most important conversation that any of us can be having 128 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: right now. Get open the phone lines if you guys 129 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: want to join this as well. Thirty one to six five. 130 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: How should we be better educating young boys on this. 131 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 3: You might be a parent listening right now, who's honestly 132 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 3: a bit worried about you know, your own kids as well. 133 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 3: And what's the advice or guidance You've got doctor Stephanie 134 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 3: Westcott here, so yeah, feel free to ask her some questions. 135 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 4: One hundred. 136 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: Respect is always there to be called if you've experienced 137 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: any sort of abuse Lifeline thirteen eleven fourteen. Otherwise we'll 138 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: keep this going up. Next swelling mony. Listen to kiss hey, 139 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: it's swelling. What a bit of a content warning kids 140 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: in the car. We are talking about violence against women, 141 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: in particular that list that was discovered at a Melbourne 142 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:33,679 Speaker 1: private school over the weekend. 143 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 2: An elite Melbourne school has suspended four year eleven boys 144 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 2: over a disgraceful online ranking of their female classmates. As 145 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 2: exclusively revealed by Today's Christina Hearn, the spreadsheet ratings WiFi 146 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: is cuties, mid object, get out and most disturbingly unrapable. 147 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: I really want to stress before we get back into 148 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: this that we just feel really awful for all those 149 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: girls that are there. That is just something that no 150 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: one deserves and it's horrible, and we've kind of decided 151 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: that I think it's a really good idea that, as 152 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: two men who have a lot of influence over young boys, 153 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: that we sort of talk about this, and we talk 154 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: about it from a context of trying to help stop 155 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: this again and trying to help educate young boys. So 156 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: we've got doctor Stephanie Wescott who joins us from Monash Union. 157 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,239 Speaker 1: She's a lecturer in education culture at Monash Union. Particularly 158 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: right now, I know she's researching the influence of Andrew Tate, 159 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: who's this hectic mask guy on boys' behavior in schools 160 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: across Australia. So doctor Stephanie, thanks so much for joining us. Again, 161 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: I want to keep things. I've got a question from Aisha, 162 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: who's called Aisha. Welcome to William Woody. 163 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 5: Thank you very much. First of all, I would like 164 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 5: to thank you all for even speaking about it. It's 165 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 5: very important we talk about it. I've got a young 166 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 5: child goes to a boys' school and this comes in 167 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 5: a very right time and my question is to doctor Stephanie, 168 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 5: what seems to be the right age. There's a lot 169 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 5: of debate about introducing content like this, you know about 170 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 5: poor or how to deal with women objectifying women. What 171 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 5: is the right age to know you to talk about 172 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 5: talk about this stuff without hyper sexualizing the content, because 173 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 5: it can go the other way as well. You know, 174 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 5: it can also go a way where you know, you're 175 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 5: introducing them to concepts beyond their age and they've got 176 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 5: get more interested. So I would like to hear your 177 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 5: opinion that, yeah, I don't think. 178 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 4: You can start. I don't think there's any limit. Really. 179 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 4: I think you can start as as soon as they're 180 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 4: able to comprehend these kinds of conversations. But obviously it's 181 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 4: always got to be age appropriate. So I mean, I've 182 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 4: got a little boy myself, he's two years old, and 183 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 4: so I'm talking to him about gentle hands, being being kind, 184 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 4: not hurting others, you know, when we're in the playground, 185 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 4: teaching him how to play kindly, how to who you know. 186 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 4: You know, obviously, kids will always have accidents and they're 187 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 4: testing out and trying out behavior. But there really is 188 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 4: no limit on when we should start having these conversations. 189 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 4: It's just about making sure their age appropriate. And once 190 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 4: you are having these conversations with your children, they know 191 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 4: that you're a safe person. They can come to so 192 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 4: if they do see something at school, or see something 193 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 4: online or here's something, they can come to you and 194 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 4: ask stephaniely what you would like them to do. 195 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: I'd also just want to jump in there as I'm 196 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: not sure if you heard this, but we had Yumi 197 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: Stein's on the show the other day. She wrote a 198 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: children's book with doctor Melissa Kang, who was the old 199 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: sort of dolly doctor, and it's a it's a kid's 200 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: book called Welcome to Consent, which was fascinating conversation for 201 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: us to have, obviously with little girls as well. It 202 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: was it was better. I feel like Yumi was right 203 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: on at the front foot there and totally agreeing with 204 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: doctor Stephanie in terms of obviously there's a way how 205 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: to do it depending on the age. But for you, 206 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: she was like that, I don't see why you could 207 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: be any You can't be too young to sort of 208 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: ye massages in some way. I've got Isabelle, who's called 209 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: as well Dr Sephanie Wescott here talking about violence against 210 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: women in particularly educating young boys in the light of 211 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: this Yarrow Valley Grammar situation. Isabelle, You've got doctor Stephanie. 212 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 6: Hi, guys, Firstly, Will and Woodie, thanks so much for 213 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 6: having this conversation. We need more male role models like. 214 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 4: You guys around. 215 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 6: Doctor Stephanie, I am a I'm the head of wellbeing 216 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 6: curriculum at an all boys school, so this is a 217 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 6: story that was really interested in and we do lots 218 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 6: of wellbeing curriculum in this space. But you know, I'm 219 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 6: thinking about the message coming from me and coming from 220 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 6: mums and apart from having you know, great men like 221 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 6: Will and Woody delivering this message, how do women actually 222 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 6: cut through to particularly adolescent boys and men with these messages. 223 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 4: Well, that's a great question, and thank you so much 224 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 4: for the work that you're doing. It's really important and 225 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 4: you know, I'm sure the news today would have affected 226 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 4: all of you quite a lot. But something that's come 227 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 4: through in our research is that women in schools like 228 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 4: yourself really want men to step up their male colleagues 229 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 4: and the men around them who are working in schools 230 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 4: and to have this conversation with them as well. So 231 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 4: it's got to come from both the men and from 232 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 4: the women. It's just as important for boys to hear 233 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 4: these messages from you as it is from your colleagues 234 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 4: and there's no reason why boys in your schools shouldn't 235 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 4: be trusting and listening to the message, whether it's coming 236 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 4: from you or from your male colleagues. You know, the 237 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 4: host of this show will and what you are doing 238 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 4: an amazing job of leading this conversation. But it's worth 239 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 4: noting too that both the callers we've had so far 240 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 4: has been women, asking questions, how do we do a 241 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 4: better job, how do we teach our sons? How do 242 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 4: we teach our boys? So men have to be part 243 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,719 Speaker 4: of this conversation. They haven't been in your callers so far. 244 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 4: That doesn't mean that there's not some men. 245 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 7: On the line. 246 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 3: I'm looking at all the calls coming through. They're all women. 247 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 3: Well I think that's a fascinating point I've just made. 248 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I've got one more question for you, if 249 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 7: we've got if we've got time, doctor step if you're 250 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 7: the principal of Yarra Valley Grammar, I'm not one hundred 251 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 7: p cent telb, but I'm pretty sure these boys have 252 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 7: been suspended over what they've done. 253 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 3: What what's what do you do in that situation? What's 254 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 3: your punishment for those boys? Or what are you how 255 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:24,839 Speaker 3: are you dealing with those boys. 256 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 4: I think what the principle has done so far is 257 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 4: a very strong response, and we need a really strong 258 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 4: response because this is very serious behavior. What this principle 259 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 4: has done, which is not often what we see, is 260 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 4: to involve police. So he's reported this matter to police 261 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 4: because of that violent language that was used in one 262 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 4: of those categories. Whether or not there will be charges 263 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 4: laid is irrelevant, and the principle doesn't expect there to 264 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 4: be charges laid. But it's actually about the escalation of 265 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 4: his type of behavior and not just dealing with it 266 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 4: in school and keeping it is like, you know, let's 267 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 4: let's suspend them more assignment with the tension and letting 268 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 4: the boys know this is gendered violence, this is violence 269 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,079 Speaker 4: against women. This is a very serious problem. It's not 270 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 4: just you mucking around with your friends. So I think 271 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 4: what the principle has done is perfect. There's been a 272 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 4: lot of conversation about expulsion in order to protect the 273 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 4: girls who are remaining at that school and to protect 274 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 4: their safety, and that's a decision for the principle of 275 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 4: that school to make. But what I will say is 276 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 4: wherever those boys go, whichever school it is, there is 277 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 4: likely to be the same issue there, because this is 278 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 4: a nation wide issue that we are having in school, 279 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 4: that's not just this school step. 280 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 3: I know. 281 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: Sorry, one hundred respect is the number to call if 282 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: you've experienced any sort of domestic violence or abuse. Doctor Sevani. 283 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 4: I know. 284 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: Sorry, this has been going for a while, but I 285 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: just want to keep asking you questions. Something for me, 286 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: which I think was important as a young boy growing up. 287 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: This is going to get a bit personal, but I 288 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: think it's important. One of my friends, who was a 289 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: girl crying to me about something that another guy had 290 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: said or something that she'd found out that dad said, 291 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: and I think that was maybe the beginning of a 292 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: turning point for me where I was like, and this 293 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: is going to sound hectic, and I don't know why 294 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: I've admitting this on radio, but as a young guy 295 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: I was I went to an all boys school, and 296 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: I didn't have a lot of contact with I mean, 297 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: luckily I had an older sister who would have whipped 298 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: me into shape very smart if she had heard or 299 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: thought that I was thinking any of these things. But 300 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: I think that one of the key elements to moving 301 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: past objectification in any sense is knowing that there's a 302 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: person behind the thing that you're trying to put a 303 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: label on, because then you no longer see it as 304 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: black or white. You kind of see it as nuanced 305 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: and personal and sort of unlocks a human element in 306 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: you which you can't deny. So, for me, the most interesting, oh, 307 00:15:57,760 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: I think the solution to this, and please correct me 308 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, is trying to show these boys that 309 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: there are people behind the girls that they are talking 310 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: about in this way and moving them from objects to 311 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: actually individuals. Is there a way that we can try 312 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: and get I mean, as I said before, Woody and 313 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: I went to an all boys' school, and so our 314 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: access to girls our age was really seriously limited unless 315 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: we were doing a school play or socializing with them. 316 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: But you know, often we sort of you know, teenage 317 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: drinking or fleetingly on a tram. Is there a way 318 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: that we can try and get like more nuanced conversations 319 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: between genders at that age. We actually brought up our 320 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: team or someone in our team brought up the first 321 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: series of Heartbreak high on Netflix recently, and how that 322 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: show was all about that bringing both sides of the 323 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: gender together to talk about sex and see in each other. 324 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: What they're scared of and who they are as people. 325 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: Is there any chance of this happening earlier on in 326 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: high schools for these kids? 327 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 4: Well, I think what you're saying is really useful. But 328 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 4: in this case of yar A Valley Grammar, these girls 329 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 4: are those boys, their peers. So you can't get any 330 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 4: more human than the girl sitting next to you trying 331 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 4: to learn and get an education with you. So really, 332 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 4: I think this is about how does our society you 333 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 4: entreat women. What are the underlying messages the boys are 334 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 4: receiving from really young about girls being inferior, girls being 335 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 4: objectified in Australian society and culture. You need to start there. 336 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: And before they get to high school, you're saying, because 337 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: you're saying, they've already got the blinkers on, before they 338 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: get to the classroom where they're sharing it with another girl, 339 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: they are already thinking a certain way about them. 340 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 4: Yeah. In our research, we've spoken to women who work 341 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 4: in primary schools and boys in those schools are you know, 342 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 4: parroting Andrew Tate comments and ideology. So this absolutely has 343 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 4: to start in primary school Yep. 344 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: Doc seventy. This has been a really informative if slightly 345 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: terrifying chat. Yeah, hopefully there are people listening who can 346 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: take some action in whatever field they're in right now. 347 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: We really appreciate your time. Doctor Stephanie wests got Lecture 348 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: and Education Culture at Mnash University on what we were saying. 349 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: The most important conversation I think right now in this country, 350 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: if not the world, one one hundred. Respect is the 351 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: number to call if you're a victim. I've always suspect 352 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: any sort of domestic abuse or physical violence. If you 353 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: are a woman, we call Lifeline thirteen eleven fourteen. If 354 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: any of that has affected you, it's willing. What do 355 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: your kiss? 356 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 7: Hear more of the boys on the full podcast Just 357 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 7: scroll up.