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Speaker 1: What's the name of that really fancy store that the

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Speaker 1: kids love to go and spend money out, like they'd

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Speaker 1: set up camp if they could so they can buy

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Speaker 1: their makeup.

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Speaker 2: As like Mecca.

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Speaker 1: Mecca? Is that the one with the big black Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Today today? What do you do when your child wants

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Speaker 1: to spend all of their money and all of your

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Speaker 1: money on makeup and they're only seven or eleven or

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Speaker 1: whatever it is that they're too young you think for

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Speaker 1: them to be wearing makeup? Gooday, and welcome to the

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Speaker 1: Happy Families Podcast, Real parenting Solutions Every day on Australia's

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Speaker 1: most downloaded parenting podcast, we are Justin and Kylie Coulson,

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Speaker 1: and every Tuesday on the pod we answer your tricky questions,

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Speaker 1: whether it's family or relationships, or screens or the kids

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Speaker 1: wearing makeup. All you need to do to submit a

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Speaker 1: question is send us a voice message, use a voice

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Speaker 1: note app on your phone, send it through to info

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Speaker 1: at Happyfamilies dot com dot au. Just like this anonymous

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Speaker 1: listener did, what.

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Speaker 3: Age is it appropriate to wear makeup? My daughter's eleven

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Speaker 3: twelve in September and she loves wearing eye makeup. Only

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Speaker 3: she's homeschooled, so she's only wearing it to church on Sunday.

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Speaker 3: I don't wear any of it, and I really think

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Speaker 3: she is too young for that. What would be the

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Speaker 3: best way to talk to her? Thank you?

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Speaker 1: Okay, Kylie, we have six daughters. I feel like we're

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Speaker 1: qualified to talk about this one outside of any pairing

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Speaker 1: books and PhDs in psychology, not ever else where do

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Speaker 1: you want to start? I kind of want to handle

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Speaker 1: this straight to you, as the female, the matriarch of

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Speaker 1: our family, and the one who has dealt with this

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Speaker 1: probably more than me.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to counter her tricky question with one

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Speaker 2: of my own. Oh right, Okay, why do you think

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Speaker 2: that makeup is one of those trigger point topics for

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Speaker 2: so many parents? I want to say moms, But I

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Speaker 2: can tell you I have had so many conversations with

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Speaker 2: dads who are actually more I'm going to use the

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Speaker 2: word militant about their girls wearing makeup than even their

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Speaker 2: partners are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, there's a bit of research around this, and

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Speaker 1: it indicates that most parents that worry about makeup usually

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Speaker 1: they do come from more conservative backgrounds. So church, that

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Speaker 1: doesn't surprise me to hear that. Nevertheless, it's not isolated

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Speaker 1: to just that conservative background, but research would indicate that

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Speaker 1: parents worry about it because of a couple of things.

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Speaker 1: Number one, and certainly this has been the issue for

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Speaker 1: me when our daughters have started to experiment with makeup,

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Speaker 1: is you just don't want them to grow up too soon.

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Speaker 1: And especially there's a sense that beauty standards and self

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Speaker 1: worth are interconnected. So if I feel like I'm not

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Speaker 1: enough as I am, I'm only enough when I'm wearing

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Speaker 1: this mask that I put on as a dad. I

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Speaker 1: want my kids to know that they're beautiful without it.

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Speaker 1: They don't need it, They're just they're wonderful. And the

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Speaker 1: research certainly suggests that I'm not Robinson Cruso there, I'm

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Speaker 1: not living on an island on my own. Other really

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Speaker 1: big ones though that data point to revolve around childhood innocence.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of parents view make up as part

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Speaker 1: of adult or at least teenage self presentation, and they

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Speaker 1: worry that kids are just growing up too fast. It

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Speaker 1: could be premature sexualization or premature adult behaviors. And I

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Speaker 1: think all of that sort of leans into this idea

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Speaker 1: that some parents just see makeup as a gateway to

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Speaker 1: having this broader. I'm a parents focused, I'm socially pressured.

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Speaker 1: I need to look a certain way. My value is

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Speaker 1: tied to how I look My read on the research

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Speaker 1: around this as a wonderful book by Renee Engirl. It's

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Speaker 1: called Beauty Sick. It's still probably my top ten books

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Speaker 1: of all time. It's brilliantly written, incredibly written, and she

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Speaker 1: unpacks a whole lot more of that which we could

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Speaker 1: go into. But I don't think that will answer this

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Speaker 1: question quite so well. I know you weren't asking for

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Speaker 1: a long answer. I'm sorry I went on as long

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Speaker 1: as I did. You're looking at me like, h now,

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Speaker 1: I've got no time left to talk.

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Speaker 2: In Stephen Covey's book The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People,

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Speaker 2: he tells this story about a man who marries into

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Speaker 2: a family and one day his wife is making a

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Speaker 2: lamb roast and he walks in while she's doing it,

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Speaker 2: and he notices that she cuts both ends off the

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Speaker 2: lamb roast, and he thinks, that's really weird.

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Speaker 1: What a waste of meat.

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Speaker 2: Why do you do that? And she said, well, that's

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Speaker 2: the way my mum always did it. He thought, this

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Speaker 2: is a bit weird. So he decided to give her

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Speaker 2: a call and he said to her, mum, why do

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Speaker 2: you cut the ends off your lamb roast? And she said, well,

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Speaker 2: that's the way my mum always did it. And so

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Speaker 2: he called the grandma and said, I was watching my

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Speaker 2: wife make the lamb ROAs the other night and she

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Speaker 2: cuts the ends off the lamb rose and her mum said,

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Speaker 2: was because that's how you taught it to do it.

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Speaker 2: Why did you do it? And she said, well, back

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Speaker 2: when they were younger, she said, we had a really

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Speaker 2: small oven and it wouldn't fit in the oven if

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Speaker 2: I didn't cut the ends off. So her decision to

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Speaker 2: cut the ends off the lamb roast was practical for

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Speaker 2: the time, but not necess necessarily needful moving forward. It

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Speaker 2: was just something that had been passed down from generation

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Speaker 2: to generation without ever questioning why. And so you've shared

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Speaker 2: a couple of things here that are really important. You know,

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Speaker 2: the idea that we want to keep our children innocent

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Speaker 2: for as long as possible, and that we want them

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Speaker 2: to not grow up so.

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Speaker 1: Fast and not be focused on physical appearance. For me,

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Speaker 1: that's the big one. Don't just trust that you're beautiful,

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Speaker 1: putting that on is not going to make you more

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Speaker 1: valuable at all, And if you think that it will,

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Speaker 1: then you're going to be chasing it forever and never satisfied.

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Speaker 2: But I wonder whether this huge emphasis that we have

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Speaker 2: on the fact that our kids shouldn't be wearing it

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Speaker 2: is something that's just been passed down from generation to

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Speaker 2: generation and we're not willing to actually sit in that

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Speaker 2: hard place and actually think about it from their perspective

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Speaker 2: in the world we live in now and how it

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Speaker 2: impacts them. Well.

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Speaker 1: It certainly the more you push back, the more controlling

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Speaker 1: you are around it, the more it feels like forbidden fruit.

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Speaker 1: It makes the kids want it more. Force creates resistance.

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Speaker 1: So after the break, we're going to talk about how

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Speaker 1: you can get to the bottom of this, talk with

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Speaker 1: your kids effectively and safely about it and help them

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Speaker 1: to navigate this desire, this challenge in a healthy way.

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Speaker 1: We're back as a Happy Famili's podcast, and today it's

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Speaker 1: the perennial problem of kids wanting to wear makeup before

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Speaker 1: their parents feel like they're ready for it. So Colie,

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Speaker 1: today I've had this over to you today. What are

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Speaker 1: our action steps if we're parents who want our kids

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Speaker 1: to have a healthy approach to self image, but they

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Speaker 1: really want to explore makeup.

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Speaker 2: So this is actually very interesting because out of six children,

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Speaker 2: we have only had one who has been just gun ho,

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Speaker 2: very intense about her desire to wear makeup from an

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Speaker 2: earlier age than I was comfortable with.

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Speaker 1: So at first four not really that interested. They've all

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Speaker 1: had moments, right, but normally as they've been a bit

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Speaker 1: older and they've started to experiment with makeup a bit, but.

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Speaker 2: Well, the general rule in our home has been fourteen.

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Speaker 2: I would let them wear makeup from the time that

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Speaker 2: they were fourteen, and so I actually pre armed them

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Speaker 2: at the time they turned fourteen. I brought them a

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Speaker 2: little makeup bag and they got them some Missca and

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Speaker 2: a little bit of foundation and some blush and a

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Speaker 2: clearer kind of you know, soft colored lip closs.

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Speaker 1: You said, you know, I don't know, I have no

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Speaker 1: idea what you're talking about, and.

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Speaker 2: That kind of appeased most of them, And to be honest,

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Speaker 2: because I am not a makeup wearer, our kids haven't.

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Speaker 2: It hasn't been a big deal. They've wanted on special

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Speaker 2: occasions and we've actually got away.

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Speaker 1: With it really easy until that one until number five

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Speaker 1: came along, loves.

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Speaker 2: It and from the time she was about eleven.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, from the time she was

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Speaker 1: about two, that's what it feels like.

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Speaker 2: She was obsessed, absolutely obsessed with it.

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Speaker 1: To order our action steps. If we've got a parent

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Speaker 1: who's really worried and does want the kids to grow

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Speaker 1: up too fast, and has an eleven year old who's saying,

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Speaker 1: but I want to wear it all, what do you reckon?

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Speaker 1: Because you've had more of these conversations with the kids

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Speaker 1: that I have.

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Speaker 2: It's probably going to sound like we're on repeat, but

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Speaker 2: it really is the three e's.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you've been talking to a parenting expert. Explore,

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Speaker 1: explain in power. That's what you write down in your sheet.

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Speaker 2: That is what I wrote down. Okay, so the first

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Speaker 2: one is explore. This is just this is such an

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Speaker 2: awesome conversation. We get to get curious instead of furious

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Speaker 2: with them because they've got this desire. We get to

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Speaker 2: explore what it is that's motivating this desire and need.

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Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting that you said that we

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Speaker 1: want to get curious, not furious. This is one of

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Speaker 1: those things where parents do get upset yeah, And when

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Speaker 1: you think about what I was saying earlier, it kind

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Speaker 1: of makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Your child wants to do something, you're uncomfortable with it

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Speaker 1: because you feel like they're losing their innocence, they're growing

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Speaker 1: up too fast. There they're putting the focus on their

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Speaker 1: external appearance rather than the internal character. And there's all

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Speaker 1: of these moralistic and values laid in judgments that you're

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Speaker 1: putting on your child because they want to wear makeup.

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Speaker 1: And therefore, as a parent, you go, you don't believe

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Speaker 1: in yourself, and you're completely externally focused and blow up.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you don't actually say those words, but underneath

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Speaker 1: the emotion, no, you're not wearing makeup, you're too young.

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Speaker 1: Underneath that is all this fear. My child's getting older,

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Speaker 1: my child's focused in the wrong places, and so on,

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Speaker 1: my child's becoming increasingly sexualized. That drives I was going

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Speaker 1: to say furiosity instead of curiosity, but I feel like

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Speaker 1: I've just become mad mags furiosa. That drives the reprimand

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Speaker 1: rather than the understand. Oh gosh, there I go again.

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Speaker 1: So when we talk, for those who are not familiar

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Speaker 1: with the three is of effective discipline, it means that

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Speaker 1: we explore their world, like you said, Kylie, we explain

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Speaker 1: where we're coming from them. We empower them to come

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Speaker 1: up with a solution or a structure, a framework, or

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Speaker 1: a system that we can all feel good about. We

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Speaker 1: work on solutions together.

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Speaker 2: What's interesting to me is we've got this idea that

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Speaker 2: makeup as all of these negative things in our children's lives.

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Speaker 2: And yet I would say that every single one of

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Speaker 2: us encourages our children on a day to day basis

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Speaker 2: to put their best foot forward and to dress smartly

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Speaker 2: and represent themselves well. And yet do your hair, touch

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Speaker 2: yourself in or one hundred percent? And then there is

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Speaker 2: an absolute counter to that as soon as they say, well,

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Speaker 2: I just want to add a bit of color to

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Speaker 2: my cheeks or put some lipstick on.

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Speaker 1: You know what I'm thinking, as I'm listening to say this,

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Speaker 1: we haven't. You've prepped this, and I had no idea

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Speaker 1: where you were going to go with it. I wonder

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Speaker 1: what a twenty four year old Kylie would say if

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Speaker 1: she could hear mid forties Missus Happy Families saying this

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Speaker 1: about her daughter's wearing makeup from the age of eleven.

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Speaker 1: My sense is that as we have raised six daughters.

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Speaker 1: We've learnt not to sweat the small stuff and our

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Speaker 1: senses that making a big deal about makeup is perhaps

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Speaker 1: a bit unnecessary. It's not nearly as much big stuff

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Speaker 1: as it might seem to be.

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Speaker 2: I remember one day one of our younger kids coming

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Speaker 2: home from school and they had a sex question and

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Speaker 2: it was about two kids at school. And she asked

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Speaker 2: me about this thing. She was a bit worked up

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Speaker 2: about it. That's will tell me what does that mean

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Speaker 2: to you? And she told me what it meant, which

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Speaker 2: was absolutely and entirely different.

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Speaker 1: There's so many funny memes where that sort of thing happened.

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Speaker 2: So different from the actual meaning.

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Speaker 1: The parents start going into this big story and then they, oh,

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Speaker 1: the kid did not mean that at all.

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Speaker 2: And so that's why this explore conversation is so important,

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Speaker 2: because what you think is the motivation behind them wearing

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Speaker 2: makeup is probably not their motivation.

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Speaker 1: And if it is, you get to have the conversation

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Speaker 1: with them and explore more, explore, explain empower. That's I mean,

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Speaker 1: if I was answering the question and I did I

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Speaker 1: literally put this one on you today, I would go

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Speaker 1: in the same direction precisely and I would all also

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Speaker 1: say we used to care about this a great deal,

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Speaker 1: and while I still think that it is a relevant

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Speaker 1: and important question, I still think that it matters, and

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Speaker 1: I do think we need to take it seriously because

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Speaker 1: it can be associated with a bunch of things that

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Speaker 1: lead to kids growing up too soon. My sense is

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Speaker 1: that if we take a really mature, really easy approach

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Speaker 1: to it, our children will respond really well to it.

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Speaker 1: There won't be any of that resistance around it, and

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Speaker 1: they'll end up having a healthy relationship around self image

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Speaker 1: and self presentation and so on. So to our anonymous voicemailer,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for the question. We love answering

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Speaker 1: your questions and we hope that helps. If you'd like

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Speaker 1: to submit a tricky question, you've got two options. Either

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Speaker 1: use the super simple system at happy families dot com

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Speaker 1: dot you just scrolled out of podcasts, click the record

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Speaker 1: button and start talking, or alternatively, send us a voice

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Speaker 1: note to info at happy families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin ruland from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. You'll find more resources and a bunch more

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Speaker 1: information about making your family happier, including the Misconnection Summit,

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Speaker 1: all about raising healthy, happy, resilient teen girls at happy

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Speaker 1: families dot com dot a