1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: So she did have this fantastic piece of advice which 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: was don't hide your light, which was as in under 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: a bushel. What she meant by that was to challenge 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: the paradigm that I certainly had at that time was 5 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: the sort of if I do a really good job, 6 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: I'll get noticed and I'll get ahead because I do 7 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: good work. That seemed like a pretty simple thing. But 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: what I realized and McKinsey really helped me through this 9 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: is that if you really want to make a difference 10 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: in any kind of way, it's not enough to come 11 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: up with a smart answer and be a good problem solver. 12 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: If you, like you need to be able to persuade people. 13 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: You need to be able to have them sit up 14 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: and listen and take note and ultimately choose to do 15 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 1: something different than what they were going to do otherwise. 16 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: And that's how you can really have impact. 17 00:00:57,720 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tech 18 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: used by the world's most successful people to get so 19 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 2: much out of their day. I'm your host, Doctor Amantha. 20 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 21 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 2: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. 22 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 2: Hey there, Before we get started on today's show, I 23 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 2: just wanted to do a little call out for listener questions. 24 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 2: I'm wanting to experiment with a new format on the 25 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 2: Tuesday episodes where I answer any questions that you, as 26 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: a listener have on your mind about work and productivity 27 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 2: and particularly this new world of work. So I'd love 28 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 2: it if you could send me through anything that's on 29 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: your mind. My email address is Amantha at Inventium dot 30 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 2: com dot au and that's also in the show notes, 31 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: So I look forward to hearing from you. Okay, let's 32 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 2: get on to today's qiest, who I'm very very excited 33 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 2: about because I've wanted to have her on the show 34 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: for quite some time and we were able to get 35 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 2: connected through someone that we both know. So without further ado, 36 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 2: my guest today is Alison Watkins. Allison joined Coca Cola 37 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: Amtal as Group Managing Director in March twenty fourteen, and 38 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 2: before Coca Cola Amateur, Allison was the CEO of Agribusiness 39 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 2: Grain Corp and of Barry, the market leader in Australian juice, 40 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: and she was also the Managing director of Regional Banking 41 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 2: at A and Z Allison spent ten years prior to 42 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: that at McKinsey, and she became a partner over there 43 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 2: before moving to A and ZED as group General Manager 44 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: of Strategy. Allison's also been a non executive director of 45 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: A and ZED, Woolworth and the Just Group. So you'll 46 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: see by her bio that she is an amazingly impressive 47 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: and accomplished businesswoman and I was so keen to speak 48 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: to her understand how has she done this and all 49 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 2: while having four children as well. So we talk about 50 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: all sorts of things in this conversation. We talk about 51 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 2: how her work has changed very dramatically since COVID. We 52 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: talk about some of the best and worst career advice 53 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 2: that she's been given what to do, and she receives 54 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 2: negative feedback and as you can imagine, as a businesswoman 55 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: in the public eye, she receives a lot of it 56 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: from all sorts of places. And we talk about a 57 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 2: whole bunch of other things. So on that note, let's 58 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 2: head to Alison to hear about how she works. Alison, 59 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. 60 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: Oh, it's a pleasure to be with you, Amantha. 61 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: I'm very excited to be chatting with you. One of 62 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: these female business leaders that I've admired from AFAR for 63 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 2: several years, and so when Scott Anthony, who we both 64 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 2: know quite well, offered to do the introduction, I jumped 65 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: on it. So I'm really excited to be chatting with you. 66 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: No, that's my pleasure now. 67 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 2: Something I have been starting a lot of interviews with given, 68 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: certainly in Melbourne where six months into working from home 69 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,239 Speaker 2: and I imagine the way that you work since COVID 70 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 2: struck has changed a lot. I am keen to know, like, 71 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: what have been the biggest changes that you've had to 72 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: make to how you work given this new working environment 73 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: that we're in. 74 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, very very very different. Couldn't be more different. When 75 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: I think about how we carefully planned out my calendar 76 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: for this year and then what's actually transpired, it couldn't 77 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: be more different. And my job is based in Sydney, 78 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: however I do actually live in Victoria, so that's added 79 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: another little twist into the whole equation as well. So 80 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: my normal routine actually was to commute backwards and forwards 81 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: from Victoria. We have a farm in southwest Victoria and 82 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: so I would be on a flight on Friday afternoons 83 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: and then coming back on Sunday, and that was my routine. 84 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: It also included quite a lot of overseas travel. We've 85 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: got markets Indonesia and New Zealand and then various other 86 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: markets that I would visit and go to the US 87 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: to visit shareholders, the UK, et cetera. So quite a 88 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: lot of overseas travel, lots of social functions during the 89 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: week I was I didn't ever really try to cook myself. Yeah, 90 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: and we've created a beautiful workspace here at Coca Cola 91 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: place in Sydney with agile environments and you know, really 92 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: I don't have an office, and it was all about 93 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: collaboration and I was really loving our new office. So 94 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: it's just completely it couldn't be more different now. So yeah, 95 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: so I haven't been on a plane since March, which 96 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: is pretty extraordinary. So yeah, my routine's very, very different. 97 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,679 Speaker 1: I guess the upside is probably is not having to travel. 98 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: It certainly gives me more time, and I've tried to 99 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: sort of create new routines because I'm a creature of routine, 100 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: and I'm also really trying to think about how I 101 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:13,239 Speaker 1: can create those interactions as well that I miss through 102 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: not being in our office. 103 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 2: Well, I'd like to dig into a few of those things. 104 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 2: And I can certainly relate on the travel front, not 105 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: having been on a plane since March, and I don't 106 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 2: think I do anywhere near as much flying as you, 107 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 2: but i'd certainly been an airport probably about once a week, 108 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: just for mostly domestic flights. And it's amazing the difference 109 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 2: and how much time you get back into your life 110 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: when you strip out all of the plane travels. So 111 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 2: I am keen to hear about what are some of 112 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 2: the routines that you've developed now that you are working 113 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: from home and not jet setting all over the place. 114 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: So I've had a few different blocks of time. I've 115 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: had a block of time where I was actually working 116 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: from our farm in southwest Victoria. So the first sort 117 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: of stage of the law down to really sort of March, 118 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: late March through till June, I was based at our farm, 119 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: working from our farm, and then we had a period 120 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: where I was able to come back to our office 121 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: week on, week off. We have a team a team 122 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: B thing, and then we've had the lockdowns again in 123 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: Victoria and I've been based up in Sydney exclusively. So 124 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: it's looked a little bit different at each of those stages. 125 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: But I've suppose the things that I've really tried to 126 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: focus on making sure that I'm still exercising regularly and 127 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: maintaining those disciplines. So I usually do something first thing 128 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: in the morning. And even though I don't really like 129 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: the rowing machine, that's what we had at the farm, 130 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: So I sort of got myself into the rowing machine 131 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: a lot more than I would have otherwise. I'd always 132 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: meant to get around to looking at some of those apps, 133 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: apps like the Nike training app. That was a little 134 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: apprehensive about whether that would work for me, but I 135 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: actually got into that, so I sort of had to 136 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: recreate how I exercised. I'm normally like to swim, but 137 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of swimming at the farm, so 138 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: that was certainly one thing. But just making sure I 139 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: was exercising every day and maintaining that discipline, and then 140 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: having a separate workplace or space, I should say, so 141 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: I would disappear to work at you know, seven point 142 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: thirty and then really reappear at the end of the day, 143 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: and going for walking meetings on a farm. That was 144 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: a very nice thing to be able to do, and 145 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: I had a bit of fun sending pictures to my 146 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: Indonesian colleagues of me talking to Kadir our Indonesian managing director, 147 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 1: with a group of curious cows following behind me. Yeah, 148 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 1: so really recreating a different kind of routine. Now I'm 149 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: back up here in Sydney. I can you know, Sydney 150 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: feels very unrestricted, But since I've been up here, i'm 151 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: kind of My husband is a fantastic cook, so when 152 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: I was at the farm, I didn't I've just got 153 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: incredibly well fed, another reason why I needed to exercise 154 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: pretty regularly. But now I've sort of made a little 155 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: resolve to myself that I am not going to order 156 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: food in I'm going to use this as an opportunity 157 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: to improve my cooking skills. So I think it's probably 158 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: lucky that I'm the only person who's actually eating what 159 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: I'm cooking at the moment. But I am getting a 160 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: little bit more self sufficient, so that's good. 161 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 2: How are you becoming a better cook? 162 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: Out of interest, I'm experimenting with a few different things. Actually, 163 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: So while I decided I wasn't going to go to 164 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,959 Speaker 1: the Uber Eats style of ordering on I have tried 165 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: out some of the services like Marley Spoon or Hello Fresh, 166 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: those sorts of services where you do actually cook, but 167 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: you have a lot of hand holding, and that's just 168 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: been a really good learning exercise for me to see 169 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: how that service actually works and what appeals about it. 170 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: I have a rule which I've always admired my husband 171 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: for not observing the same rule. But my rule is 172 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: that it shouldn't take any longer to cook it than 173 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 1: it would take you to eat it. So therefore that 174 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: is to limit my repertoire to about a twenty minute 175 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: type preparation time. That's my sweet spot. 176 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 2: I love that rule. That's fantastic. Now you mentioned going 177 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 2: on walking meetings around the farm, which just paints a 178 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 2: beautiful picture. I can relate to that. I certainly do 179 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 2: have quite a few zoom meetings or virtual meetings, but 180 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 2: I try wherever possible to default to phone meetings. And 181 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 2: if I've got a phone meeting, my rule is that 182 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 2: I walk, so at the moment that's kind of doing 183 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: laps of the house, so I don't have to be 184 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 2: wearing a mask outside. 185 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: But what are your rules. 186 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 2: Of thumb as to whether something should be a video 187 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 2: meeting or whether it can be a phone or let's 188 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 2: say walking meeting. 189 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really good question because I think I'm 190 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: really conscious that it is often important to be able 191 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: to actually see people and for them to see you. 192 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: And I'm really conscious of being able to use those 193 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: interactions where you're looking at someone, particularly someone that I 194 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: don't interact with that often, to be able to see them. 195 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: And there might be somebody who's working on a project 196 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,719 Speaker 1: in our business and I know they're doing a lot 197 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: of work behind the scenes, and if we're all in 198 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: the office together, I might be able to wander around 199 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: and ask them how it's going and sort of give 200 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: them a bit of a pad on the back or 201 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 1: a thanks. So I think those interactions are not happening therefore, 202 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: using you know, we use WebEx and Microsoft teams using 203 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: those interactions in a virtual sense to just check in 204 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: with somebody and make sure that they get drawn into 205 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: the conversation and there's you know, I think those sorts 206 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: of visual interactions, while they're in some ways they're certainly 207 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: not a perfect substitute, they are a lot better than 208 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:15,719 Speaker 1: just a phone hook up where you just don't have 209 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: that same sort of awareness of who else is necessarily 210 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: even on the phone. The walking meetings that I've found 211 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: most successful, particularly where I mentioned our Indonesian managing director, Kidir, 212 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: and he was going through a really, really tough time 213 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: and he was quarantined himself for quite a period of 214 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: the time, A tough time in the sense of it 215 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 1: was just really intense. The health situation in Indonesia has 216 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 1: been very dire, and so making sure that we were 217 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: keeping out people safe, continuing to serve our customers, and 218 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: keeping our business going. It was just a really intense time, 219 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: and I felt like I wanted to just talk to 220 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: him or listen every day so that he knew he 221 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: had our support. And so my role often was listening 222 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: more than you know. I didn't need to be looking 223 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: at slides or you know. And we knew each other. 224 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: We know each other incredibly well, so it didn't matter 225 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: if we couldn't see each other as much. And I 226 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: told him that Kid, I'm going to wherever possible these meetings, 227 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to be doing a walking meeting, and so 228 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: he knew so, and he was very very happy about that. 229 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 1: In fact, I think he quite liked hearing the birds 230 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: and the cows, and my role was much more of 231 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: listening and just really being there for him and supporting him. 232 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: That's how I was feeling it. 233 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: Anyway, That's quite beautiful to hear about that, and just 234 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: the amount of time that you invested in him, knowing 235 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 2: that he was going through a tough time. I want 236 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: to change tact. So something I'm curious about is I imagine, 237 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 2: I mean, in the various high profile roles that you've had, 238 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 2: you would have had to deliver a lot of bad 239 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 2: news in all sorts of situations, whether that be to staff, 240 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: to shareholders, the market, and so forth. And certainly in 241 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 2: the last six months, I imagine you've probably become quite 242 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 2: well practiced at delivering news that you know is less 243 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: than optimal and you know not where not where you 244 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: know you perhaps thought things would be at the beginning 245 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: of the year. And I want to know what's your 246 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 2: strategy for delivering bad news? How do you kind of 247 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: think about that and then consciously deliver that in the 248 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 2: best way possible? 249 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: Well, yes, I mean I think the things I've learned 250 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: probably the hard way, certainly to be upfront and not 251 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: to wait or feel like you have to have all 252 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: the answers, and so it's just better to be straightforward 253 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: with people. I think it's also important to give hope, though, 254 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: so even though you may not have all the answers 255 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: as to what you're going to do or certainly in 256 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: these last few months, I think trying to pretend that 257 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: we knew how this was all going to play through 258 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: was fraud because we just didn't. But I think being 259 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: able to point to the reasons to be optimistic is 260 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: really is really confident to remind people of, for example, 261 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: in our case, the strength of our business, the ability 262 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: to outperform in times of adversity because of those strengths 263 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: that we have, those sorts of themes. And then I 264 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: think also with bad news, and it depends on the 265 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: kind of bad news, but certainly where for example, you 266 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: might have tough news about somebody's job or somebody not 267 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: being successful on something that they know, maybe to get 268 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: a job that they were hoping to get. Being empathetic 269 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: and really trying to sort of mentally prepare yourself for 270 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: a tough conversation by putting yourself in the shoes of 271 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: the person receiving that information and trying to think about 272 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: how you would feel and I certainly have been on 273 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: the receiving end of plenty of tough conversations in my 274 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: career and trying to visualize how I would want that 275 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: message to be delivered, and think about then, as the deliverer, 276 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: how would I like that person to feel after the conversation. 277 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: I find that a helpful device as well. 278 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 2: I think that's really useful, I think, and I certainly 279 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 2: know for me, when I'm going into a tough conversation, naturally, 280 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 2: you can just start to spend a lot of time 281 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: thinking about what am I going to say, how much 282 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 2: going to say, how am I going to phrase it, 283 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 2: and you almost like ironically just forget about, well, hang on, 284 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 2: how's the other person going to be feeling? And you 285 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 2: can also forgets not quite the right word, but it 286 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 2: kind of is like forget to listen because you're so 287 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,479 Speaker 2: focused on doing your bit as well as possible. So 288 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 2: I really like what you're saying around just it's simple, 289 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: but it's actually sometimes not that natural to do, even 290 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 2: when you are an empathic person. I think. So I 291 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 2: do really like that, And I guess like on the 292 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 2: topic of you know, receiving bad news and negative feedback, 293 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 2: I imagine you know, given how public your roles are and 294 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: still are, that you've hold you you've probably received a 295 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 2: lot of negative feedback from people you know over the 296 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 2: course of your career, and what's your approach to to 297 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 2: taking on board negative feedback and deciding even whether it's 298 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 2: worthy of being applied or actioned. 299 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: I certainly used to be very very much I guess 300 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: when I worked at McKinsey for a few years what 301 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: we used to describe as an insecure overachiever. So there 302 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: was a level of insecurity that makes you, and certainly 303 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: made me very very much somebody who wanted to please. 304 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: And then as a result of that, you realize that 305 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: by being in that mindset of I want to meet 306 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: or exceed expectations, you are then very vulnerable to the 307 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: judgments of other people. And I never really sort of 308 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: appreciated that until I went through some really good leadership 309 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: development work, probably twenty years ago or so, and I 310 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: realized that you really need to think about if you're 311 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 1: exposing yourself to the judgment of others in that way, 312 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: that is a it's really an untenable position because those 313 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: people who pass judgment may actually not have particularly good judgment. 314 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: They may not be well informed. And as you go 315 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: into more increasingly senior roles, there are lots of people 316 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: with lots of different judgments, so it would become an 317 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,479 Speaker 1: impossible not that you would tie yourself into because you 318 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: just can't please everybody. So I think I've become a 319 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: lot better at accepting that not everybody is going to 320 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: agree with the choices that I make, or the things 321 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: that I say, or the things that I do, And 322 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,719 Speaker 1: to think about the people that I care about and 323 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: value their judgment the most because I think they are 324 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: well placed to be wise or considered, and so therefore 325 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: their feedback is actually really important to me. And to 326 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: try not to leave myself vulnerable to the judgments of 327 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 1: the sort of broader, less informed people, but to accept 328 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: that you will get that, And also to try to 329 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: embrace a bit of a mindset of that there's something 330 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: to learn in everything negative that you do here, and 331 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 1: you know it may be, for example, that what we 332 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: didn't could do a better job of communicating is this 333 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: person they are speaking up. Sometimes that takes courage, in 334 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: if it was in an organizational setting. Somebody who criticizes 335 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: a decision or a direction that can take a lot 336 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: of courage, So you don't necessarily just want to ignore 337 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 1: it or jump on it. You want to sort of 338 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: reflect on it and say, well, is there something that 339 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: we should be learning from that? But to not allow 340 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: yourself to be your own self worth to be a 341 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: function of what other people are saying, unless they are 342 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: that small number of people that you know whose opinion 343 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: you really really consider is important. 344 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 2: And how did you get to that point of being 345 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 2: able to actually not let all negative feedback get to 346 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 2: you and take that personally like where there's some sort 347 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: of some key moments along the way where that happened, 348 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 2: or strategies that you use, because I think that's really sensible, 349 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 2: you know, really picking and choosing who you do actually 350 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 2: listen to, so to speak with negative feedback. But it 351 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 2: can be really hard to distance yourself from negative feedback 352 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 2: even when you know that it's not, you know, worth 353 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: listening to, so to speak. 354 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: I think there were a few formative things. I remember 355 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: when I was at A and Z we did the 356 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: LSI and that was one of the first sort of 357 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: kind of leadership feedback leader and style feedback exercises I've 358 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: been through. So I sat down with the facilitator and 359 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: she showed me that my team had rated me quite 360 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: strongly on the various leadership attributes, but I rated myself 361 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: much less strongly, and I was secretly thinking that's a 362 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 1: good thing because it shows that I'm modest. I'm not 363 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: somebody who bignotes themselves and ticks the extremely you know, 364 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: very strongly agree boxes. I don't have a big ego, 365 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: was how I saw it. She really explained to me though, 366 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 1: that actually that was a negative thing that I had 367 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: this sort of minimalist view of myself, because it meant 368 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: that I wouldn't be I wouldn't be sort of strong enough, 369 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: assertive enough, demanding enough in context for example, where I 370 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: needed to set my team up for success and make 371 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: sure we had the resources we needed or we didn't 372 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: get sort of pushed into targets that were impossible, that 373 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: you know, I needed to be able to be as 374 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: stronger and assertive as a leader. And that really made 375 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: me reflect on, yes, that sort of perception that I 376 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,239 Speaker 1: had of myself. And then I'd say, another piece of 377 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 1: leadership development work that I did back in the early days, 378 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: again with John McFarlane at A and Z, was really 379 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: about this idea of everything that happens to you, to 380 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: embrace accountability for yourself and instead of blaming others or 381 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: blaming externalities or the weather or COVID nineteen or whatever 382 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: you want to blame, or you know, somebody who made 383 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: a stupid decision before you joined, to take responsibility. To 384 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: have a mindset of taking responsibility for everything that happens 385 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 1: to you, even the things that are negative things, and 386 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: to ask why was that thing sent to me, Why 387 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: did that happen, what was it sent to teach me? 388 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: And to really try to take that mindset of I'm 389 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: in control. I may not be in control of everything 390 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: that happens to me, but I can control my reactions. 391 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: I can choose how to respond. I have choices in 392 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: this situation, and there's something to learn from it. And 393 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: so that has been a really important mindset for me 394 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: in making sure I never allow myself or try not 395 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: to allow myself to feel like a victim, because I 396 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 1: think then you're disempowered when you feel that way. And 397 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: I think the final thing which I have found really 398 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: helpful to think about is to think about the five 399 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: people that you are surrounding yourself with, the five people 400 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: who have the most that you spend the most time 401 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: with and really ask yourself, are those people that I 402 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: will learn from and who can help me grow and 403 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: be a better person. 404 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 2: They're really interesting experiences. And I think what you mentioned 405 00:24:55,720 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 2: around that first experience at A and Z with the 406 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 2: LSI assessment and kind of seeing yourself as I think 407 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: smaller was the word that you use than your team. 408 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 2: I don't know if this relates to you know, when 409 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 2: I was doing research for this interview, I read that 410 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 2: you said that one of the earliest pieces of advice 411 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 2: he received from Diane Grady was to not hide your light, 412 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 2: which I found really interesting and I'm wondering if you 413 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 2: can explain what she meant by this and how you 414 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 2: applied it. 415 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, Diane was I think she was the first female 416 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: partner at McKinsey, and she was based in the Australian office, 417 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: and she was, you know, and still is a fantastic leader. 418 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: So she did have this fantastic piece of advice which 419 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: was don't hide your light, which was as in under 420 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: a bushel. What she meant by that was to challenge 421 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,479 Speaker 1: the paradigm that I certainly had at that time was 422 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: the sort of if I do a really good job, 423 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: I'll get noticed and I'll get ahead because I do 424 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: good work. That seemed like a pretty simple thing. But 425 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: what I realized and McKinsey really helped me through this 426 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: is that if you really want to make a difference 427 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: in any kind of way, it's not enough to come 428 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: up with a smart answer and be a good problem solver. 429 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: If you like you need to be able to persuade people. 430 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: You need to be able to have them sit up 431 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: and listen and take note and ultimately choose to do 432 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: something different than what they were going to do otherwise. 433 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: And that's how you can really have impact. So this 434 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: whole idea of not hiding your light, I never sort 435 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: of saw that as needing meaning you need to kind 436 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: of self promote. It was much more a call to 437 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: action to me, to say, you need to really think 438 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: about how you're actually making a difference, whether it was 439 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 1: as an advisor or in an organization. It's just not 440 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: enough to have the right answers. The only way you 441 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 1: have impact is through being able to persuade people. And 442 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: that means speaking up when it's uncomfortable. That means saying 443 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: what you think and why, and it means not falling 444 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: in line with everybody else, it means challenging and having 445 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: those more uncomfortable conversations. So that was a really important 446 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: thing for me. 447 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's interesting around influence and persuasion, and 448 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 2: it's clearly I mean, to get to where you are, 449 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 2: I would think that you would need to be very 450 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 2: skilled at that. And I'm wondering what are the strategies 451 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 2: that have served you best when you're thinking about influence 452 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 2: and persuasion, because I guess one that comes to mind 453 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 2: for me when I think about you and I think 454 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 2: about you, know, particularly when I was preparing for this 455 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 2: interview and listening to interviews, watching interviews, reading interviews, and 456 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 2: even my experience of you during this interview, is that 457 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 2: you're very good at telling stories and bringing points to 458 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 2: life in kind of a visual and emotive kind of way. 459 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 2: And I'm wondering, like, is that one of your main 460 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 2: strategies for influencing and persuading and what else are you 461 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 2: doing consciously to do that. 462 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: I do often think about how do I want people 463 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: to feel? Because I believe, you know, for example, if 464 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: I give a speech or you know, even an informal talk, 465 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: or you know, if I'm in one of our businesses. 466 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: I read somewhere once, and I think it's so true. 467 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:36,880 Speaker 1: People don't remember what you said, they do remember how 468 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: they felt. So the idea of really sort of putting 469 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: yourself in the shoes of the audience, if it was 470 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: a group or if it's an individual, thinking about that individual. So, 471 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: as a CEO, you interact very briefly with lots of people, 472 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: and that's a you know, I love love to be 473 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: able to do that. And I remember well myself what 474 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: it meant to see the CEO and to have some 475 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: brief interaction with them. So I am always thinking, this 476 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: person may you know, they may not see me for 477 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: another year, or they may you know, they may go 478 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: home to their family and say, oh I saw Alison 479 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: today and she ignored me, or she said get a 480 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: to me in the lift and she asked what I 481 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: was doing, or because I think, you know, if people 482 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: have a sense of belonging, which you know, I'm in 483 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: a unique position to be able to create that, you 484 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: really really get so much satisfaction for them and so 485 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: much more positive energy in the organization that allows us 486 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: to achieve our goals overall. So yeah, I think that's 487 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: the main thing. 488 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 2: Now, we've got a few minutes left, and I want 489 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 2: to finish with career advice, because I imagine you must 490 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 2: have been given a lot of career advice over the years, 491 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 2: some of it good, some of it bad, and I'm 492 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 2: curious as to what's been the best career advice that's 493 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 2: really served you, and equally what's been the worst. And 494 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 2: I'm happy for you to start with worst or best, 495 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: whatever works for you. 496 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: I would say probably the best advice has come from 497 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: my family. So first of all, from my husband in 498 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: really pushing me to apply for McKinsey and to really 499 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: give that a go. Because I was working in a 500 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: charted incounting firm. He was doing an MBA. He used 501 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: to come home and talk about McKinsey and the other 502 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: consulting firms. I thought it sounded fantastic, but you know, 503 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: it was just a dream for me. I felt I 504 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: need to go off and do an MBA. He said, no, 505 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: let's prepare for it together because he was also going 506 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: through the same process, and I think you can do it, 507 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: and so he really pushed me. Whereas I had that 508 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: sort of yeah, shrinking view of myself, I suppose that 509 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: I wouldn't possibly be able to be of any interest. 510 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: So that, I think really then helped me understand that 511 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: if you set your mind to something, you can really surprise, 512 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: surprise yourself and not to make assumptions about how good 513 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: everybody else will be, and maybe you can just do 514 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: a little bit better than you ever would have given 515 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: yourself credit for. So I would say that was very 516 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: very good advice. Poor advice. Look, I wouldn't say any 517 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: advice is poor advice. It's all griss for the meal. 518 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: I suppose an opportunity for reflection, But I know I 519 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: remember when I was joining Very Limited, which is a 520 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: mid size was a mid sized independent juice company, the 521 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: market leader in Australian juice at the time. I had 522 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: been at McKinsey and then at A and Z for 523 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: a few years, and I asked a number of people 524 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: who I respected their views on as to whether I 525 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: should take this role on to become CEO of Berry, 526 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: and a couple of my advisors said no, they didn't 527 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: think I should because in their words, it wasn't sort 528 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: of blue chip enough I think was the expression they used. 529 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: They were concerned, I think that I might be going 530 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: off into something that I wasn't probably going to be 531 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: with people that I might learn from as much. I 532 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: didn't take that advice, So I don't think it was 533 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: necessarily poor advice, because it certainly made me think about 534 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: what was behind their advice and why were they saying that. 535 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: But I ended up not taking that advice. So yeah, 536 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: and I'm very glad because it turned out to be 537 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: a wonderful experience. 538 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: And why didn't you take that advice? What within you 539 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 2: kind of knew that that wasn't advice that was worth 540 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 2: taking on board. 541 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: I have been quite clear that I wanted to get 542 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: the P and L experience, the line management experience, and 543 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: I've had some of that at A and Z. I 544 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: was very fortunate there at A and Z to get 545 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: the chance to run one of the businesses. But running 546 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: a business within a very large organization to a bank, 547 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: I knew was different than being responsible for a mid 548 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: size organization end to end and getting all of the 549 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: range of functional experience, and so I was really passionate 550 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: about getting that kind of P and L experience end 551 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: to end running a complete business, and I knew that 552 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: those opportunities were few and far between for someone of 553 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: my background. Because you don't normally get people who take 554 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: a risk on you when you've got a particularly a consulting, 555 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: very large organization background. And in dutchy As who was 556 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: the chairman at the time, a very well respected agribusiness entrepreneur. 557 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: I knew he was offering me quite a unique opportunity, 558 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,479 Speaker 1: and so I was really torn. But at the end 559 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: of the day, I thought, no, look, I think I 560 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: want this experience. I really do want to have the 561 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: chance to be responsible for a whole organization, and so 562 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: I took it. 563 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,439 Speaker 2: Amazing, amazing. Well, Alison, we are like just about out 564 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 2: of time. So my final final question is for people 565 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 2: that want to connect with you or know more about 566 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 2: you or Coca Cola amateur and everything that you do, 567 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 2: what is the best way for people to do that? 568 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,879 Speaker 1: Well, certainly LinkedIn is a great way to connect and 569 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: I would love to hear from anyone and continue the conversation. 570 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 2: Awesome, Alison, I've loved our chat. Thank you so much 571 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 2: for your time. I can't even begin to imagine how 572 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 2: busy you are, but thank you. It's just been awesome. 573 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: I've enjoyed it too. Thanks Samantha. 574 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 2: That is it for today's show. I hope you liked 575 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 2: my chat with Alison. I just found her so down 576 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 2: to earth and ironically very humble, even though that is 577 00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 2: obviously something that she has addressed through her own development feedback. 578 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,919 Speaker 2: So look, if you know someone that might benefit from 579 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,959 Speaker 2: today's show, why not share it with them just using 580 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 2: the little share icon wherever you listen to this podcast, 581 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 2: And if you're enjoying How I Work, I would love 582 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 2: it if you would take just a few seconds to 583 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 2: leave a review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen 584 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 2: to this show. The more reviews thesier it becomes to 585 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 2: find a show. And thank you to the hundreds of 586 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 2: people that have left reviews for How I Work. It 587 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 2: is deeply, deeply appreciated to it for today's show and 588 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 2: I will see you next time.