1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: Have you ever struggled to give honest feedback, maybe fearing 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: you might hurt someone's feelings. Kim Scott is a former 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: executive at Google and Apple and the author of global 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: bestseller Radical Candor. Kim's philosophy has revolutionized how thousands and 5 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: thousands of leaders around the world deliver feedback, and according 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: to Kim, there are two critical ingredients that you need 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: to bring to every feedback conversation. Welcome to How I Work, 8 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: a show about habits, rituals, and strategies for optimizing your day. 9 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Doctor Amantha Imber. On today's Quick Win episode, 10 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: we go back to an interview from the past and 11 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: I pick out a quick win that you can apply today. 12 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: In today's show, I speak with Kim Scott about the 13 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: key to giving feedback that helps people grow and why 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: being nice is the cruelest thing you can do as 15 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: a lie. 16 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 2: Radical candor is what happens when you care personally and 17 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 2: challenged directly at the same time, also known as compassionate candor. 18 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 2: So if you think about radical candor in terms of 19 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: a two by two framework, you ready, I'm going to 20 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: lay it on you. Let's go okay, So on the 21 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: vertical axis is care personally. On the horizontal axis is 22 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,559 Speaker 2: challenged directly, and when you do both at the same time, 23 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 2: that is radical candor. At one point in my career, 24 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: and this is really one of the more painful moments 25 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 2: in my career, I had hired this guy and we'll 26 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: call him Bob, and I liked Bob a lot. He 27 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 2: was smart, he was charming, he was funny. He would 28 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 2: do stuff like, we're at a manager off site playing 29 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 2: one of those endless get to know you games, and 30 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: everybody's getting more and more stressed out because there's tons 31 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 2: of work and people kind of are ready to get 32 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 2: back to work. And Bob is a guy who has 33 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: the courage to raise his hand and to say, you know, 34 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 2: I can tell everybody's getting stressed out, and I've got 35 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 2: an idea. It'll help us get to know each other 36 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 2: and it'll be really fast. So Bob says, let's just 37 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: go around the table and confess what candy our parents 38 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 2: used when potty training us. Really weird, but really fast, 39 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: weirder yet we all remembered. And then for the next 40 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 2: ten months, every time there was a tense moment and 41 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 2: a meeting, Bob would pull out just the right piece 42 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 2: of candy for the right person at the right moment. 43 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: So Bob was quirky, but very lovable. He brought a 44 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 2: little levity to the office. Everybody loved working with Bob. 45 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: It was just one problem with Bob. He was doing 46 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 2: terrible work. I couldn't understand what was going on because 47 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: he had this incredible resume, this great history of accomplishments. 48 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 2: I learned much later the problem was that Bob was 49 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 2: smoking pot in the bathroom three times a day, which 50 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 2: maybe explained all that candy that he had, but I 51 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: didn't know any of that. All I knew was that 52 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 2: Bob was handing mark into me, and there was shame 53 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: in his eyes. He knew it wasn't nearly good enough. 54 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 2: And I would say something to him along the lae, Oh, Bob, 55 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: you're so smart, You're so awesome. We all love working 56 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: with you. Maybe you could make it just a little 57 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:07,839 Speaker 2: bit better, which, of course he never did. So let's 58 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: pause for a moment. Why did I say something so 59 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: banal to Bob. I think part of the problem was 60 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 2: that Bob was sensitive and popular, and I really didn't 61 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: want to hurt his feelings. But also if I'm honest 62 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: with myself. There was a little manipulative and sincerity going on, 63 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 2: because he was so popular and so sensitive that there 64 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: was part of me that was afraid that if I 65 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: told him and no uncertain terms that his work wasn't 66 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 2: nearly good enough, that he would get upset. This went 67 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 2: on for ten months, and eventually the inevitable happened, and 68 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: I realized that if I didn't fire Bob, I was 69 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: going to lose all the best performers on my team. 70 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: And because not only had I been unfair to Bob 71 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: by not telling him that his work wasn't nearly good enough, 72 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 2: I'd been unfair to the whole team. And everybody was frustrated. 73 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: Their deliverables were late because his liverabules were late, they 74 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: were not able to do their best work because they 75 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 2: were having to spend so much time redoing his work. 76 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 2: And the best performers on the team were going to quit. 77 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,839 Speaker 2: They were going to go work someplace somewhere else where 78 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: they could do their best work. I realized that I 79 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 2: had failed to do my job. It was time to 80 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 2: do it. And when I finished explaining to him where 81 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 2: things stood, he kind of pushed the chair back from 82 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 2: the table. He looked me right in the eye and 83 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 2: he said, why didn't you tell me? And as that 84 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: question was going around in my head with no good answer, 85 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: he looked at me again and he said, why didn't 86 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: anyone tell me? I thought you all cared about me? 87 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 2: And that was like, it hit me so hard. I 88 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: hadn't told him because I thought I was trying to 89 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 2: be nice, And now because I hadn't told him, I'm 90 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: firing him. Not so nice after all. And that is 91 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 2: the moment in my career that really prompted me to 92 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 2: think very deeply about why so many people this is 93 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: the most common mistake that managers make, I mean frankly, 94 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 2: that we make in all our relationships. And it's what 95 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: really prompted me to write the book Radical Candor and 96 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: come up with a two y two framework and to 97 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: do better next time, because all I could do in 98 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 2: the moment was make myself a very solemn promise that 99 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 2: I would never make that mistake again. Because even Bob 100 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 2: at this point agreed he should go. His reputation on 101 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:20,799 Speaker 2: the team was just shot. 102 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: It really speaks to what you say around managers need 103 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: to be good at willing to tick people off and 104 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: that really resonated with me because as a lead in myself, 105 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: I really struggle with that. 106 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 2: Yeah we too, Yeah, what have you found. 107 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: For yourself and leaders that you've worked with? 108 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: How do we get better at that? Remembering you're not 109 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 2: trying to tick people off, but you have to be 110 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: willing to take a risk. Your job as a manager 111 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: is to help people grow and improve and even though 112 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 2: it might you know, in the case of Bob, it 113 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 2: might have heard his feelings in the short run, but 114 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 2: in the long run it was better for him. 115 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed today's Quick Win episode. If you 116 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: would like to hear the Fool Chat with Kim, you 117 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: can find a link to that in the show notes. 118 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 119 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: you work, can Live. I write a short weekly newsletter 120 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. 121 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. 122 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: That's Amantha dot com. If you like today's show, make 123 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: sure you hit follow on your podcast app to be 124 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: alerted when new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded 125 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: on the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of 126 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: the Kulan Nation. A big thank you to my editor, 127 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: Rowena Murray and Martinimber for doing the sound mix.