1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 2: Oh, now it makes sense. 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Friday, 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: the twenty seventh of June. I'm Harry Sekulich. 5 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 2: I'm Sam Kazlowski. 6 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: The Federal Court has ruled the ABC unlawfully dismissed journalist 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: Antoinette Latouf by cutting short her week long radio hosting role. 8 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: Latouf was sacked after sharing a Human Rights Watch post 9 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: on social media. She accused the broadcaster of unfairly dismissing 10 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: her on the basis of her political opinion. The ABC 11 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 1: rejected this argument, but in a judgment handed down on Wednesday, 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: the court sided with Latouf. In today's Deep Dive, we'll 13 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: take you through the ruling and what it means for 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: Australian media. 15 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: Harry, I feel like often on this podcast we say 16 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 2: at the end of an episode and when there's some 17 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 2: us in this case, will make sure to bring it 18 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 2: to you, and I want to make sure that we 19 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: actually do, which is why we're talking about this judgment today. 20 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,639 Speaker 2: We have covered this case on the podcast in the past. 21 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 2: Now we have a judgment. Let's start with the case itself. 22 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 2: Tell me what actually happened here and who Antoninette Latouf 23 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 2: is so. 24 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: Antoinette Latouf is a Lebanese Australian who is a broadcaster 25 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 1: and author who founded the not for profit Media Diversity Australia. 26 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: She was hired in December twenty twenty three by the 27 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: ABC to fill in as a presenter on their local 28 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: radio program in Sydney. So during this time, Latouf said 29 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: she was told by her line manager that she was 30 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: doing a good job. The audience feedback was really good 31 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: and at one point she even talked about in the 32 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: lead up to Christmas she was getting a bit of 33 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: audience feedback on their favorite Michael Booblez song. So it 34 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: was very festive and not exactly like a news and 35 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: current affairs type of gig. Sure, So the Federal Court 36 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: was told later on that during this week long hosting gig, 37 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: Antoinette Latoufe was given some advice and that's a really 38 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: key term here against posting on the Israel and Palestinian conflict, 39 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: which at that stage was two months after the October 40 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: seven attacks and Israel had started invading Gaza. But she 41 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: was told that sharing factual information from reputable sources was 42 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: quote fine. During that week, Latouf had shared a Human 43 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: Rights Watch video with the caption quote the Israeli government 44 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: is using starvation as a weapon of war in Gaza. 45 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: This was a video that the ABC had also reported on, 46 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: and the following day, Latouf was told to leave the 47 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: ABC for sharing a post that could be considered quote 48 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: controversial and wouldn't complete her final two rostered days of 49 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: presenting as a fill in host. 50 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: Okay, so just to recap, we have Antoninette Latouf covering 51 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 2: a week of Sydney radio for the ABC, given some 52 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: advice not to post anything about conflicts that wasn't from 53 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: a reputable source. 54 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: Yep. 55 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: She then posts something from Human Rights Watch that seems 56 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: to be crossing the line for the ABC, and the 57 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 2: ABC dismissed her with two days left. Then this whole 58 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: legal drama kicked off. How did we land up in court? 59 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: Though? 60 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 2: Because a lot has to happen from a dismissal for 61 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: it to actually ended a fair work commission hearing. 62 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: The story quickly became a lot bigger than a presenter 63 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: being dismissed from her role. Part Way through, Latouf argued 64 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: that she was unfairly dismissed for multiple reasons. Among them 65 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: were three areas that are identified as protections in our 66 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: fair work laws in Australia, so that is holding a 67 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: political opinion. She was dismissed because of her race and 68 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: her national extractions, her identity as a Lebanese woman. She 69 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: initially took this complaint to the Fair Work Commission and 70 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: that then later escalated to the Federal Court after some 71 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: attempts to settle the matter out of court had fallen over. 72 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, So normally the employer and the employee or the 73 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: ex employee who feels like they were unfairly dismised will 74 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: go to the Fair Work Commission for mediation and try 75 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 2: and settle this normally financially without it proceeding to a hearing. 76 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 2: But that didn't work, so that's when they went to 77 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: the hearing. 78 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: Right, that's right. So they couldn't reach the settlement. They 79 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: couldn't talk it out outside of court, so it needed 80 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 1: to escalate to the trial that we have seen play 81 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: out over the last year or so. So. The ABC, 82 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,239 Speaker 1: for its part, had contested Latufe's claims, its central argument 83 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: being that she had breached their social media policy when 84 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: she shared the Human Rights Watch post which it said, 85 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: had veered into a matter of controversy. It also argued 86 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: that she wasn't really dismissed at all because she had 87 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: been paid for the full five days that she had 88 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: been contracted to fill in as a host. But during 89 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,119 Speaker 1: these legal proceeding sys is where it started to build 90 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: up and gain a bit more national prominence. It was 91 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: revealed that some of the senior ABC figures, which had 92 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: included the former chair Eida Buttros, had been receiving a 93 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: lot lot of complaints from what the court described as 94 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: pro Israel lobbyists who had been asking for Latouf to 95 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: be taken off air due to previous comments she had 96 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: made about the conflict in the Middle East. 97 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 2: I want to ask you a few more questions about this, 98 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 2: but let's get a quick message from our sponsor. 99 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: Okay. 100 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: So this was a big case and it dragged on 101 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 2: for some time. This week we got a decision. Take 102 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: me through what the court ruled here. 103 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, So Justice Darryl Rangier handed down his judgment a 104 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 1: little earlier this week. He characterized the response of some 105 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: very senior people within the ABC, which included Ida Bartrose 106 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: and the former head of content, Chris Oliver, Taylor as 107 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: turning from quote consternation into what he termed a state 108 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: of panic. Right, And this is a quote that I'm 109 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: going to read out from the judgment because I think 110 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: it's quite compelling. The decision was made to appease the 111 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: pro Israel lobbyists who would inevitably escalate their complaints about 112 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: the ABC employing a presenter they perceived to have an 113 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: anti Semitic and anti Israel opinions in such a public position. 114 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: So Justice Rangier also found that Latouf was unfairly dismissed 115 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: on two key grounds. The first was for expressing a 116 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: public opinion when she shared the Human Rights Watch post, 117 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: which he ruled amounted to holding a public opinion, which 118 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: is the official language in the legislation. He didn't accept 119 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: the argument that Latouf had put forward that she was 120 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: dismissed based on her race or national identity. 121 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 2: So there were those three arguments that outlined right at 122 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: the top, and he basically said that on the first argument, 123 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: she in fact was unfairly dismissed on that, but the 124 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 2: second and third was not. 125 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: So one of her fair work protections was breached in 126 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: this case. He then elaborated that the ABC had breached 127 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: its enterprise agreement by not giving Latouf an opportunity to 128 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,799 Speaker 1: respond to claims of misconduct while she had been employed 129 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: at the broadcast right. 130 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 2: Which is more of a kind of procedural point, and 131 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: that prosidual argument, And there was also this interesting argument 132 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 2: about social media that was coming through, and I would 133 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 2: be you know, it'd be remissive me as a co 134 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: founder of a social media based news organization to not 135 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: look at this really carefully and examine kind of how 136 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 2: the court viewed reposting another NGOs or another organization's media post. 137 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: Tell me a bit more about that. 138 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, So it was a really interesting tension that cropped 139 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: up in this case. So the legal question related to 140 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: whether Latouf had breached the ABC's social media policy when 141 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: she shared that Human Rights Watch post. The court ruled 142 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: that she hadn't received either a direction or instruction to 143 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: not post about Israel's war with Hamas in Gaza, and 144 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: Justice Rangia elaborated that she was simply given advice but 145 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: told that sharing factual information from a reputable source was fine. 146 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: And after this decision was delivered, Latouf addressed the media 147 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: outside the court, and this was her take on the judgment. 148 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: Today, the court has found that punishing someone for sharing 149 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: facts about these war crimes is also legal. I was 150 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 2: punished for my political opinion. Okay, So what happens from here? 151 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: What are the consequences for the ABC now? 152 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: So, in the immediate term, the ABC needs to pay 153 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: Antoinette Latouf seventy thousand dollars for what's known as non 154 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: economic losses. That covers things like the psychological distress that 155 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: she experienced in the aftermath of being dismissed. It also 156 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: covers things like hurt reputation and a lowered perception of 157 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: integrity in her work. There'll also be a separate hearing 158 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: to determine what's known as a pecuniary penalty, which is 159 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: just a legal way of saying a fine. And Antoinette 160 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 1: Latouf had initially asked for the ABC to acknowledge its 161 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: wrongdoing in a public statement. So we heard a little 162 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: earlier this week the ABC's new managing director, Hugh Marx, 163 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,719 Speaker 1: who wasn't around at the time of Latouf's dismissal. He 164 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: said in a public statement quote, it's clear the matter 165 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: was not handled in line with our values and expectations, 166 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: and further on, he gave a pretty clear signal about 167 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: the issue of outside pressure influencing the broadcaster's decisions. He added, quote, 168 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,719 Speaker 1: any undue influence or pressure on ABC management or any 169 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: of its employees must always be guarded against. I might 170 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: just end by mentioning the ABC, which is a taxpayer 171 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: funded organization, spent more than one million dollars on legal 172 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: fees in taking this case to the federal court sure 173 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: defending themselves against Latoof's claims. 174 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 2: It's often said that in cases like these, and this 175 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 2: is not unique to this situation, but in fact all 176 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 2: around the world, that the real winners in something like 177 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 2: this tend to be lawyers and those who can bill 178 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 2: for their time. How do we know, though, how much 179 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 2: they spent. 180 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: So that's because of what's known as Senate estimates, and 181 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: this happens a few times a year. That's this where 182 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: Senators get to ask questions to government departments who are 183 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,839 Speaker 1: receiving money after a federal budget allocation. And because the 184 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: ABC is a taxpayer funded organization, they also have to 185 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: face up to Senate estimates. This inquiry that's very public, 186 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: and so I think i'll just end on this note. 187 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of commentary around following this case 188 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: with Antoinette Latouff. But I think it was quite telling 189 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: to hear from some former ABC bosses, including Alan Sunderland, 190 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: who used to be the editorial chief at the ABC. 191 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: He suggested that there was some serious shortcomings in this 192 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 1: process and that the ABC, in being a publicly funded organization, 193 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: needed to consider another approach rather than going to trial. 194 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 2: A really interesting case, if anything, from the perspective of 195 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 2: employment law in Australia and how that relates to social 196 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 2: media posting, which I know has become more of a 197 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 2: topic of conversation in workplaces across the country, not just 198 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 2: in newsrooms. But that brings to the end this year 199 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 2: long saga in the Frewek Commission in Federal Court. Harry, 200 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,719 Speaker 2: thank you for joining us to don pot anytime, sir, 201 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: and that's all we've got for you this Friday morning 202 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 2: on the Daily Ods We're going to be back in 203 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,839 Speaker 2: your ears this afternoon with the headlines. Until then, have 204 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: a fantastic day and watch out to you later. My 205 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 2: name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda bunjelung 206 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 2: Kalkotin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily Oz acknowledges that 207 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 2: this podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl 208 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 2: people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait 209 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 2: island and nations. We pay our respects to the first 210 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 2: peoples of these countries, both past and present.