Speaker 1: Get a Pete Helly here. Welcome to you Ain't Seen
Speaker 1: Nothing Yet The Movie Podcast, where our chat to a
Speaker 1: movie lover about a classic or beloved movie they haven't
Speaker 1: quite got around to watching until now. And today's guest
Speaker 1: is comedian, broadcaster, podcaster, producer, director Karen Nicholson.
Speaker 2: All below, I want to stay here with you, got
Speaker 2: little jobber? Why hate?
Speaker 3: Snake shocked?
Speaker 2: Why fail?
Speaker 1: They could haven't a right?
Speaker 4: No, you ain't seen nothing.
Speaker 1: New, Karen Nicholson Wheatley is an outstanding human being, and
Speaker 1: the very talented one at that. I've really enjoyed getting
Speaker 1: to know Kien over the particularly the last few years,
Speaker 1: hanging out with him at various gigs and at the
Speaker 1: Comedy Republic, which he runs and owns, and it is
Speaker 1: one of the outstanding comedy venues in Australia, in fact
Speaker 1: the world. It is a brilliant place to hang out
Speaker 1: at the comedy festival and in fact all year round.
Speaker 1: It's got a great room and also a great bar
Speaker 1: to have a drink at before and after I owed
Speaker 1: you all to get down there. Guere jay listeners will
Speaker 1: know Kira and he's been on there for years. He's
Speaker 1: actually one of the fanning producers of the hugely successful
Speaker 1: bang On with Zanro former guest of Yasney and also
Speaker 1: my great mate Before Hurst, former guest of Yasney as well.
Speaker 1: Karen has done heaps of different podcasts over the years.
Speaker 1: He's doing one now, in fact, with Reese. He's amazing
Speaker 1: husband Ry Nichelson, and we all know Reeese from Report's
Speaker 1: Drag Race, former guest of Yasney, the winner of the
Speaker 1: Most Outstanding Show at Last is Old Comedy Festival in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. But back to Karen, Sorry, Reese. One
Speaker 1: of the podcasts Karen does is wax Quizzical and I
Speaker 1: was a guest on that while my alter ego Strawney
Speaker 1: was wax Quizzical is basically a quiz, but they have
Speaker 1: characters in their performing the quiz, so comedians kind of
Speaker 1: playing characters. It is a lot of fun. Karen is
Speaker 1: bloody fund the hangaround, is smart as a whip, and
Speaker 1: he's a bloody talented bugger. He can do everything and anything.
Speaker 1: But today we're going to talk movies and I'm bloody
Speaker 1: stoked to be hanging with Karen today. Hello, this is
Speaker 1: Karen Nicholson. Here.
Speaker 3: My three favorite films are Dunkirk.
Speaker 1: There's no hiding from this sun, because do you think
Speaker 1: you can do with that?
Speaker 4: On this thing?
Speaker 1: It's not just us, the all went on. We aren't
Speaker 1: the only ones to answer. You know, you don't even
Speaker 1: have guns. You have a gun, yes, of course, right
Speaker 1: from the three h three. Did it help you against
Speaker 1: the dive bombers and the U boats?
Speaker 4: You're an own fool.
Speaker 1: I'm not going back. I'm going back the departed. Hey,
Speaker 1: think you do pop somebody and there's a special card
Speaker 1: to play. That guy, Jimmy Baggs, whose joy you broke,
Speaker 1: happens to work undercover for the Boston Police Department.
Speaker 3: I'm going fucking nuts, man, I can't be someone else
Speaker 3: every fucking day.
Speaker 5: It's been a year of this.
Speaker 2: I've had enough of this shit.
Speaker 1: Oh I'm done, all right. Most of the people in
Speaker 1: the world do it every day. What's the big deal?
Speaker 1: I'm not down, all right, I'm not fucking them? Okay, exactly,
Speaker 1: you're nobody. You signed the papers.
Speaker 3: Remember now, we're the only two people on the face
Speaker 3: of this earth that even though you're a cop.
Speaker 1: How wut we just erase your file?
Speaker 2: Huh?
Speaker 1: And Jojo Rabbitt Hitler. Allow me to introduce myself.
Speaker 4: I am cutting Hellman, diet Soft, the Falcon Angerstapo me,
Speaker 4: have MoU la her Youngka and have may we come in?
Speaker 1: Thank you so much?
Speaker 2: Hit laugh, I'll hit luck, I'll hit luck, I'll hit love,
Speaker 2: I'll hit slack.
Speaker 1: But until today, I've never seen connor knowledge.
Speaker 6: I won't lie to you. I was a little worried,
Speaker 6: and along comes this bobby. I get one look at
Speaker 6: the size of the pair on her, and I never
Speaker 6: had a doubt I'd ever be anything but okay again.
Speaker 4: And I was. I was.
Speaker 6: With all our kidding back and forth on our first
Speaker 6: night together. I don't mind telling you I had tears
Speaker 6: in my eyes.
Speaker 4: She's really the girl in the airline commercial.
Speaker 1: You lucky son of a bitch. I don't know.
Speaker 6: I don't want to get in over my head. I
Speaker 6: got in over my head three four times already, and
Speaker 6: have to be a real bastard. I like being put
Speaker 6: in that position.
Speaker 4: What would you do if she looks anything like she
Speaker 4: looks on television size thirty eight with a d cup,
Speaker 4: but looks her in everything, believe me, looks for everything.
Speaker 1: Maybe two college roommates, Sandy play By art Garfuncle and
Speaker 1: Jonathan Jack Nicholson are obsessed with getting to first, second, third,
Speaker 1: and then of course, scoring a home run after the
Speaker 1: round the bases. Sandy, the sweeter of the two, is
Speaker 1: under the tutelage of Jonathan, and when he begins hanging
Speaker 1: out with Susan played by Cannicebergen, he is in a
Speaker 1: hurry that gets some runs on the board by putting
Speaker 1: you in the friend zone. Susan, feeling sorry for Sandy,
Speaker 1: then puts him in the friends with fringe benefits zone.
Speaker 1: But when Jonathan moves in and begins dating Susan on
Speaker 1: the side, it sets these two mates on a complicated
Speaker 1: path that never quite collides, but rather drunkenly dances around
Speaker 1: each other for the next twenty odd years. Written by
Speaker 1: a Pulitzer Prize an Oscar winner Jules Pfeiffer, directed by
Speaker 1: the legendary Mike Nichols, Carl and Knowledge feels almost like
Speaker 1: a forgotten classic, a somewhat precursor to the American sex
Speaker 1: comedies of the early eighties, but with much more to
Speaker 1: say than say Meatballs. Nineteen seventy one's Carl and Knowledge
Speaker 1: also includes Ann Margaret in the film's only Oscar nominated role.
Speaker 1: She would nab a Golden Globe for her role as
Speaker 1: Bobby Jonathan's dream girl that turns into his living nightmare.
Speaker 1: Carlinal Knowledge tackles male misogyny and toxicity way before we
Speaker 1: knew it was important to talk about these things. Karen Nicholson,
Speaker 1: have you ever jumped into a pool fully clothed after
Speaker 1: losing your virginity twice? Twice? Excellent? Because I thought maybe
Speaker 1: you would want to skirt her out. I thought you
Speaker 1: you may be a bullshit artist.
Speaker 3: Well as a bisexual, I can lose my virginity twice.
Speaker 3: So no, I've never done that. But that's what a
Speaker 3: sensational scene of this film. That that is God, this film.
Speaker 3: I've become obsessed with Mike Nichols.
Speaker 1: So this is the reason this film has been nominated.
Speaker 1: We discuss and by the way, great to have you
Speaker 1: on board many many nights, usually a comedy republic. You know,
Speaker 1: we shout each other from the You've got to come
Speaker 1: do the podcast pick a film and pick a film.
Speaker 3: So when you then you sent me a list of
Speaker 3: fifty and I said, none of those.
Speaker 1: But this is such a well I want to deep
Speaker 1: dive into the film just yet. But this is a
Speaker 1: great film because I think a lot of our audience
Speaker 1: I had not seen it. It's a film that doesn't
Speaker 1: get spoken about a lot. It's a very early Jack
Speaker 1: Nicholson film. He comes up Easy Rider and I think
Speaker 1: five easy pieces and then does this film. It kind
Speaker 1: of singles the end of Simon and garf Uncle because yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because he's the garf uncle.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: I thought I would have a crack at acting and
Speaker 1: did a bloody good job of it. Again, we'll get
Speaker 1: to more of it later, but you currently doing a
Speaker 1: Mike Nichols deep dive. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So Reese, my partner, my husband, my wife.
Speaker 1: I don't know what the word is.
Speaker 3: When someone's non binary spouse is unfortunate as a word,
Speaker 3: isn't it? That's an unfortunate non binary partner word. But
Speaker 3: bought me a book called Mike Nichols A Life, and
Speaker 3: it's incredible biography that has collected. I don't know how
Speaker 3: he's done it, the author whose name escapes me right now,
Speaker 3: but he's got like there must be diaries, his diaries
Speaker 3: everywhere that he's collected and put in some sort of
Speaker 3: chronic chronological order, so that he can attribute to people.
Speaker 3: But it is written in this very conversational way. It's
Speaker 3: like it puts you in the room and but in
Speaker 3: a sort of factual way. It's not made up at all.
Speaker 3: It's like, no, this is these are the things that happened.
Speaker 3: These are the things that were done and said. And
Speaker 3: Mike Nichols was a formative member of improv in Chicago,
Speaker 3: like and built really with Del Close, had a bunch
Speaker 3: of improvisers in Chicago what we know of today as improv,
Speaker 3: like all the rules, like yes and like all that shit.
Speaker 3: He's he's there his second city, wasn't it yeh second city?
Speaker 3: That's he's he's there at the very start of what
Speaker 3: became that. And then he goes and becomes a theater
Speaker 3: director in New York and has like four Broadway hits
Speaker 3: at once, like four shows are running that you cannot
Speaker 3: get a ticket to, Like he's absolutely odd couple.
Speaker 1: I think the Odd Couple was one of the was
Speaker 1: one of his.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 3: And then he goes to Hollywood and his first film
Speaker 3: is Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf? And this is his
Speaker 3: I'm only up to the fourth film as I'm reading
Speaker 3: this book. I and watching his back catalog as we
Speaker 3: go so that I can sort of so it's like
Speaker 3: a companion piece to his filmography.
Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing because when they offered him Who's Afraid of
Speaker 1: Virginia Wolf, he was like a self made man by
Speaker 1: that stage.
Speaker 4: He was.
Speaker 1: He was wealthy based on because he did the He
Speaker 1: teamed that with is Elaine May for May Nichols and
Speaker 1: then Yeah, and then goes to Broadway, has all these hits.
Speaker 1: So when they came in and said we want you
Speaker 1: to direct Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf, he said, yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: but I want to do it in black and white,
Speaker 1: and they're like, no, I know, You've got to do
Speaker 1: it in color. And he said, you know what I
Speaker 1: was I could do could spend time at home.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, literally, So he wasn't.
Speaker 1: Courting Hollywood and it's amazing and I think, again we're
Speaker 1: probably deep having a bit more. But he was probably
Speaker 1: the best at making plays converting them into movies because
Speaker 1: sometimes we've seen, you know, were you watching a movie
Speaker 1: you think this feels like a play and probably should
Speaker 1: have stayed a play. He is amazing at it. So
Speaker 1: for those who don't know, so the graduate obviously maybe
Speaker 1: is like the most famous Mike Nichols film, but there's
Speaker 1: all these even you know he's working up until Charlie
Speaker 1: Wilson's Water was a really good one with Tom Hanks,
Speaker 1: Julie Robertson and Philisimmoa Hoffman Closer with Nellie Portman and
Speaker 1: Julie roberts I'm gonna have to dive more into Mike Nichols.
Speaker 1: And also I know that I have seen a couple
Speaker 1: of docodes about him, But there is so much to
Speaker 1: read and to take in about Mike Nichols, and we'll
Speaker 1: do more of that very soon. Let's talk about your
Speaker 1: three favorite films and really good ones here?
Speaker 3: And what did I say, Because I've got a list
Speaker 3: of seven, and when you said you've got to say
Speaker 3: them at the top of the show, I was like, well,
Speaker 3: I'm about to pick three, and.
Speaker 1: You can throw in apologies. This is shooting three films.
Speaker 1: Is tough, is violent, It's violent. And you know, I
Speaker 1: was a mutual friend of ours and came on this
Speaker 1: show and she took me to task of making her
Speaker 1: pick three films. I thought that seems sup a critical.
Speaker 1: She literally has a show called Take five. When she
Speaker 1: asked her to choose a top five songs of all
Speaker 1: time all there, you know, yes, you know in that sphere.
Speaker 1: Let's go through your top three films and then we'll
Speaker 1: do some apologies phat Dunkirk is but a great Christopher
Speaker 1: Nolan of course, and.
Speaker 3: Yeah, tell us like Dunkirk, Well, Dunkirk, I'll just watch
Speaker 3: I'll I'll just put it on. Yeah, and it's also
Speaker 3: handy that it's like quite short. It's like eighty seven
Speaker 3: minutes or something like that, and so you can just
Speaker 3: put it on. You know, I'll get home at night
Speaker 3: and just put that film on. I think it's I
Speaker 3: just think it's masterful.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: What Christopher Nolan is known for in his time and
Speaker 3: shifting time and playing with that, I think is sort
Speaker 3: of perfected in this film. So, you know, war film,
Speaker 3: we watch three different war stories I guess that collide eventually.
Speaker 3: One of them is extremely short, one of them is
Speaker 3: a bit longer, one of them is quite long, but
Speaker 3: you'll be watching them intermixed and into played. And you know,
Speaker 3: Mike Nichols has spoken about time as being one of
Speaker 3: the key things that you have to contend with when
Speaker 3: you're making I don't know any sort of art form
Speaker 3: that like a book or a film or something that
Speaker 3: goes for a while, you know, not like a painting
Speaker 3: on a wall. You have to contend with time and
Speaker 3: how you play with time, and Mike Nichols has has
Speaker 3: talked about that quite a bit, and that is you know,
Speaker 3: Christopher clearly Christopher Nolan's obsession if you see any of
Speaker 3: his films, and I think Dunkirk is the one that
Speaker 3: perfects it, that just really really gets it. And the
Speaker 3: performance is in it are just extraordinary as well, because
Speaker 3: everyone has these sort of bite size performances, like it's
Speaker 3: almost like every character's a cameo the way that it
Speaker 3: sort of interplays together with a few exceptions. So yeah,
Speaker 3: I just I love it so much.
Speaker 1: And sometimes when you talk about nonlinear time in films,
Speaker 1: it's easy enough to you know, they begin at the
Speaker 1: end and then they kind of yet blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: But when with dunk Kirk, I remember trying to explain
Speaker 1: how the time thing works, and somebody else had also
Speaker 1: seen the picture and they couldn't quite articulate it exactly
Speaker 1: what he's done. And then somebody that said, if you
Speaker 1: just watch it, you're in the hands of a master.
Speaker 1: It will actually make sense, like it makes less sense
Speaker 1: when you explain it. Yes, exactly what he's done with
Speaker 1: the time but done. But when you watch it and
Speaker 1: you let it wash over you and you love it.
Speaker 1: And it's also of course based on such an extraordinary moment.
Speaker 1: I mean, the Nazis were Germany was about to take
Speaker 1: Great Britain and it's there's a great doco just released
Speaker 1: on Netflix which is from the Front. I remember I
Speaker 1: think they did because I think last time I was
Speaker 1: in England, I didn't feel that way. Yeah, they had
Speaker 1: sausages on the menu, so I'm thinking they must have
Speaker 1: taken over. This doco is all vision taken from planes
Speaker 1: and the ships and tanks, you know, ally side and
Speaker 1: it's and it's all colorized. It's been restored, and I've
Speaker 1: watched quite a few word two docos, but this was
Speaker 1: one of the it's one of that I'm not through
Speaker 1: it all, but it's one of the really it really
Speaker 1: does put you in there, and they've got some great
Speaker 1: vision from Dunkirk as well, and it's it just reminded
Speaker 1: me of as much as I knew when I was
Speaker 1: watching the film that what was at stake, You kind
Speaker 1: of go Germany really had this really was the last
Speaker 1: if they did take the UK. Yeah, everyone was fucked, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: and it was basically this almost the Royal Air Force,
Speaker 1: you know, in Britain. And then the community really yeah,
Speaker 1: likes it sounds like a bad eighties film. The community
Speaker 1: are coming together, we can beat the villain. That's actually
Speaker 1: what happened.
Speaker 3: Well, that exactly, and that's kind of part of it too,
Speaker 3: is like that it's got a bit of that cinema
Speaker 3: language of everyone getting on the boats and the flotilla
Speaker 3: of fishing vessels. Yeah, that head out and you know, yeah,
Speaker 3: and it's also beautiful as a film, like he's you know,
Speaker 3: he always shoots in imax and so it's it's stunning.
Speaker 3: It's like it's a very filmy film, and you know,
Speaker 3: like there's less and less of that these days. I think,
Speaker 3: well everybody thinks.
Speaker 5: So.
Speaker 1: I think it's got the shot too of that Tom
Speaker 1: Hardy on the beach and the bombs are coming. I
Speaker 1: think Quentin Tarantinia I said it's the best shot ever
Speaker 1: in the history of the.
Speaker 3: And when the planes on fire, Yeah, that shot at
Speaker 3: the end, and like I mean, and the opening as
Speaker 3: well as we're just in the streets. Yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: and there's like leaflets falling in like a couple of gunshots,
Speaker 3: and even the entry to the story, which is so different.
Speaker 3: All that footage is so different to like the rest
Speaker 3: of the film. I just it's perfection and end that
Speaker 3: it's under ninety minutes. Yeah, yeah, it's like you didn't
Speaker 3: need longer. No, it's it's yeah, we wanted to say
Speaker 3: some film stock for Oppenheimer. Yeah, he knew what was coming.
Speaker 3: He's paying for all of that on his own dime.
Speaker 1: I think, let's stay in World War two, Got a
Speaker 1: Jojo Rabbit, which is again, those two films show you
Speaker 1: how you can tackle similar worlds and being from completely
Speaker 1: different perspectives. Tiger with Tit does a great job with
Speaker 1: here with Scull at your Hansen and it's a it's
Speaker 1: a great film.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's it's again one that I go back
Speaker 3: and watch a lot, and I think a lot of
Speaker 3: my apologies, a lot of the ones that I skipped over,
Speaker 3: a sort of more in this world I do. I
Speaker 3: love films that announce that they're films. I guess, like yeah,
Speaker 3: like they're not trying to pretend you're not trying to
Speaker 3: absorb you into world. They constantly remind you, yes.
Speaker 1: It's a cinema Verriita. This is like this is you're
Speaker 1: watching a piece of art and you watch a story.
Speaker 3: Like bas Lermann was a director that I loved growing up,
Speaker 3: and like I really loved Muloan Bruges growing up, which
Speaker 3: I now realize is a mistake, but at the time
Speaker 3: I was like, this is an incredible world. Like this
Speaker 3: world building. I guess, yes, and so Jojo Rabbitt, I
Speaker 3: guess is sort of in that sphere too. But to
Speaker 3: sort of make essentially a kid's film and that just
Speaker 3: gets as poignant as it does when The Red Shoes
Speaker 3: Come Back is just it's such a moving film, and
Speaker 3: you know at that moment in particular, you know that
Speaker 3: that is the whole film.
Speaker 1: It's just in that.
Speaker 3: But it's very careful with its subject matter. Two and
Speaker 3: also Takowa, to get those performances out of the kids
Speaker 3: is to.
Speaker 1: Get those performances and then to two al So, I
Speaker 1: mean to get the film up to actually have a
Speaker 1: whole Wood studio go, yeah, we're gonna we're going to
Speaker 1: back this film where you play Hitler. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: I hadn't to speak about it recently, he said he
Speaker 1: did offer it like it wasn't necessarily like he was like,
Speaker 1: I'm definitely playing Hitler. I think I think the shim
Speaker 1: they crept me from wrong. I think they said you
Speaker 1: said you need to play yeah, which which does give
Speaker 1: it a different feel, and I think the right kind
Speaker 1: of feel him, you know, being who he is, as
Speaker 1: opposed to playing a you know, a white guy who
Speaker 1: looks a bit like Hitler playing Hitler, you know, which
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how many whit guys would have put
Speaker 1: up their hand for that role. But yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: a it's a great one.
Speaker 3: You sort of hope that because he directed it as well, obviously,
Speaker 3: so he sort of hope that he's not method.
Speaker 1: How far are you prepared to take it? Tiger? And
Speaker 1: based on a book that I don't think was particularly
Speaker 1: popular or did particularly well.
Speaker 3: I think his mum read the book to him, to him, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: his mum gave him the book. I think I'm going
Speaker 3: to make of Yeah, but it's but the book doesn't
Speaker 3: have a fake Hitler. No, it doesn't have like a
Speaker 3: childhood dream Hitler. That's all that's Tiger's added that, Yeah,
Speaker 3: which I think if you're the author of the book,
Speaker 3: you would watch that film and.
Speaker 6: Be like, I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't remember.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like reading with the cast announcements. Yeah, Hitler,
Speaker 1: I should have I should have read the contract, always
Speaker 1: read thes and sees that the part of the great
Speaker 1: Martin Scorsese and again pairing with good friendly Knowded DiCaprio
Speaker 1: based on Infernal Affairs, which we covered he with Michael
Speaker 1: Hing And yes, I'm trying to think of I think
Speaker 1: we've done it, the part of the such but we
Speaker 1: spoke about it the part of in that podcast obviously, Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I have. I saw it, the part before I saw
Speaker 1: in Frontal Affairs. It was it was quite a few
Speaker 1: years after to the point where I'd kind of forgotten
Speaker 1: what happens, I think because it's such an amazing kind
Speaker 1: of and with the twist and turns and how it
Speaker 1: all happens. So it was like watching it again and
Speaker 1: enjoying it again. But yeah, why do you love it?
Speaker 1: The part of so much obviously ripping cast. By the way,
Speaker 1: for those who haven't seen it, it's like almost the
Speaker 1: Outsider's cast of twenty wait or whatever. It was made
Speaker 1: so it's got Leonard DiCaprio's got Matt Damon, Alec Bordwin,
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholson.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's it's like on the other end of
Speaker 3: Jack Nicholson's career, really, like we were about to talk
Speaker 3: about the start of his career and there's like, there's
Speaker 3: very there's similar even it's two completely different roles. Obviously,
Speaker 3: one is a you know, college dude obsessed with sex
Speaker 3: and the other is a criminal mastermind or maybe not,
Speaker 3: but he's sort of got a bit of the similarity
Speaker 3: in the characters, that similar sort of sudden explosiveness. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that sort of brood that can be let go at
Speaker 3: a certain point, which is really exciting to watch. It
Speaker 3: has been exciting to watch his whole career, I guess.
Speaker 3: But I think the reason I like it is again
Speaker 3: is like it's it's one of my favorite scor s
Speaker 3: Aces films. And I really like Matt Scorsese and I
Speaker 3: really like Takawa, and I really like Chris Nolan and
Speaker 3: Mike Nichols, and I think, like this is why it's
Speaker 3: been so hard to pick a fir like I sort
Speaker 3: of more like bas Lehrman generally, even though he's made
Speaker 3: some errors.
Speaker 1: You know, But like I really says, I, I stumble
Speaker 1: upon this sometimes where you go, I can't believe I'm
Speaker 1: even critiquing Martin Steven Spielberg.
Speaker 3: Third, But I like, you know, the other the apologies
Speaker 3: that are on my list of like Quentin Tarantino film
Speaker 3: and it was Anderson film. And it's sort of like
Speaker 3: I'd really like these film directors who like, over the
Speaker 3: course of their career really work on their like their practice,
Speaker 3: you know, in the way that a musician, you know,
Speaker 3: works on their instruments and sort of gets better and
Speaker 3: better and better at it. And then like the films
Speaker 3: that are on my list here are like probably my
Speaker 3: favorite ones from each of those directors. But it's really
Speaker 3: more I think what I really enjoy is like getting
Speaker 3: into a director and everything that they've made. And so
Speaker 3: I think that depart That Departed is a really great
Speaker 3: modern Martin scots A film, yep, the Obvious Ones, Good
Speaker 3: Fellas and things like that.
Speaker 1: But this, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think maybe because it came out in my time,
Speaker 3: like I could watch it. I wasn't like watching something
Speaker 3: from history.
Speaker 1: I could.
Speaker 3: I could go and watch it and see it and
Speaker 3: so and it's similar, and I think to Dunkirk, consider
Speaker 3: or I'll just go back and watch it again and
Speaker 3: see it again. And it's more difficult. It's quite long,
Speaker 3: but I'll just drop into any scene. I'll just skip
Speaker 3: forward and just start watching from the middle, or start
Speaker 3: watching anywhere.
Speaker 1: Did it need the rat at the end? I there's
Speaker 1: a couple of films and I do really like The Departed.
Speaker 1: The rat kind of calling out at the end was like,
Speaker 1: that's felt heavy handed. It was such a because it
Speaker 1: was such a great film, and Sammy Swisson turns and
Speaker 1: and then we know, we know that exactly, we know that,
Speaker 1: and it just felt Martin to shoot it or Marty
Speaker 1: and then the colin the master sometimes for say yeah,
Speaker 1: and then it survives, survives the editing process. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not you forgive it. It's sometimes when
Speaker 1: when last shots of a film kind of makes you go,
Speaker 1: like licorice pizza are really like from Wes Anderson and
Speaker 1: without going into that film, there's the last shot. What
Speaker 1: are saying, Where's Where's west? Somebody should check it? Where
Speaker 1: somebody should check Where's AND's middle name is Paul or
Speaker 1: Thomas or Thomas Lequae Peach I really liked. And there's
Speaker 1: this a final moment in the film that I thought
Speaker 1: kind of contradicted. I think what I was thinking them
Speaker 1: was kind of about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like more more recent watch Saltburn the other Day,
Speaker 3: which I loved, and again towards the end there's there's,
Speaker 3: in my opinion, too much detail, like we don't need
Speaker 3: to know, you don't need to try. We we know, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 3: we're with you.
Speaker 1: You've you've drawn.
Speaker 3: These things together well enough. You do not need to
Speaker 3: flash back to the moment when and show exactly what happened. Yes,
Speaker 3: and you know it's like, oh, it's sort of is
Speaker 3: just let down, like you've you've, you've taken us with
Speaker 3: you already. Trust yourself almost, That's my view. I think
Speaker 3: trust yourself.
Speaker 1: Well, particularly when you were talking about like masters in
Speaker 1: the way of cinema and storytelling, which again you know
Speaker 1: you feeling it's self conscious kind of questioning their choices.
Speaker 1: But as movie fans, where you pay, you pay ticket,
Speaker 1: you get to say what you like. So yes, okay,
Speaker 1: let's get into the film. We are here to talk
Speaker 1: about today. Some people you can tell about right away.
Speaker 6: Most girls I talked to us like respe eyes from
Speaker 6: foreign countries, and we're speaking in code. Everything means something else.
Speaker 6: Like I say, would you like to take a walk?
Speaker 6: And it means something else? And she says I can.
Speaker 6: I've got a French test tomorrow and it means something else.
Speaker 1: And you say I'll come over and help you study,
Speaker 1: and it means something else.
Speaker 6: You're very shocked.
Speaker 3: I like that, and that means something else.
Speaker 1: You're too shock? Does that bother you? It interests me?
Speaker 6: Is that more code? We'd be good together.
Speaker 1: I'm dating your best friend. He won't mind. How do
Speaker 1: you know?
Speaker 6: I won't tell him?
Speaker 3: What if I mind?
Speaker 6: You wanna go out Friday?
Speaker 3: I'm seeing Sunday.
Speaker 6: Saturday, I have a date. Sunday. I'm seeing my folks.
Speaker 1: Where do they live?
Speaker 6: Newton?
Speaker 1: Sunday night.
Speaker 3: I'll be too tired.
Speaker 6: I'll help you get over your folks.
Speaker 1: How about it, Susan?
Speaker 6: What are you so afraid of?
Speaker 5: Not you?
Speaker 1: Karen Nicholson? Did you enjoy Mike Nichols from nineteen seventy one,
Speaker 1: written by Jules Feiffer, starring Jack Nicholson, Go f Uncle
Speaker 1: Kandlisberger and then Margaret? Did you enjoy cannor knowledge? Yes?
Speaker 1: Straight out. Yes, great film. It's it's like, like I
Speaker 1: said before, it feels like I've forgotten classic. I can
Speaker 1: understand it would be a divisive film and not everyone
Speaker 1: would enjoy it if they're not prepared to sit in
Speaker 1: these uncomfortable moments. Not in the male gaze. It's very
Speaker 1: you know, Mike Nichols, it's one of the criticism he
Speaker 1: sometimes gets these films are through the male gaze. But
Speaker 1: there's a lot of truth.
Speaker 3: Yes, and it's not you know this, it's certainly in
Speaker 3: this film. It's not celebrating the male game.
Speaker 1: No, this is and this is the thing I think
Speaker 1: when people might watch it and maybe turn it off
Speaker 1: because a it's just men ogling, it's like they the
Speaker 1: end is not pretty for these men exactly. Jules farf Of,
Speaker 1: the guy who wrote it, said that this film is
Speaker 1: about heterosexual men not liking women. And I think that's
Speaker 1: a pretty fascinating premise that they begin with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think that that grab that you
Speaker 3: played there is pretty much the thesis of the film there.
Speaker 3: It's sort of everything that this film about is kind
Speaker 3: of in there that no one's saying what they mean,
Speaker 3: you know, And that's whether they probably the only time
Speaker 3: in the film is actually voice that everything means something different.
Speaker 3: But for the rest of the film, that's exact, that's
Speaker 3: precisely what's happening. You're you've got to decode like every
Speaker 3: single line in this film. That and then also that
Speaker 3: the chase of women who do not want this, yeah,
Speaker 3: which is in that as well, the assistance and the
Speaker 3: disregard for the friendship in there as well, like that
Speaker 3: particular grab is like that's the whole, that's everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but also women like the cannis Bergen who plays
Speaker 1: Susan and everyone's extraordinary. I think in this I'm really
Speaker 1: surprised that go fuck I lot get more work. It
Speaker 1: makes a few more films. But I thought he was
Speaker 1: really good in this. Yeah, like a pretty like he's
Speaker 1: a likable character who does some pretty unlikable things in
Speaker 1: the end, you know, like the lack of evolution in
Speaker 1: these men is one of the startling things, and the
Speaker 1: repetition he never learns, never learned, always blaming others, and
Speaker 1: Cannisbergen that she's being manipulated by Jonathan because he's saying,
Speaker 1: you need to tell Sandy about what's going on here.
Speaker 1: He's no intention of telling it. So she's been manipulated,
Speaker 1: but you never feel quite she's a victim of him
Speaker 1: in a way, because she does she has some agency
Speaker 1: in this. She is a a participant in this, Like
Speaker 1: when they make out to use the old parlancer and
Speaker 1: then there's a beautiful dissolve by the way that goes
Speaker 1: into the footpath, and then you have Sonny and Jonathan
Speaker 1: walking down. He's telling him what have happened? And what
Speaker 1: are you going to do with your hand? What are
Speaker 1: you gonna do with the other hand? And he's like,
Speaker 1: you said that, you said that, and then she ended
Speaker 1: up giving him a hand job, and the cut to
Speaker 1: Jonathan on the phone immediately and then you know, and
Speaker 1: asking for the same thing, asking for the same thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: has never seen her, Yeah, so did see her at
Speaker 1: the mixer. By the way, the mixer is. I had
Speaker 1: to look it up because I need to notice term
Speaker 1: and pre At this time ivy Lea colleges were same sex.
Speaker 1: So I think it was the mid to late eighty seventies.
Speaker 1: They became co ed, so they would organize your sister schools,
Speaker 1: these these kind of formals, if you like, and so
Speaker 1: that was called a mixer. So he's seen her there,
Speaker 1: but no, it has not spoken to her, and which
Speaker 1: is I think a key detail. He has not spoken.
Speaker 3: It's just all about the he's given her away. Yeah, yes,
Speaker 3: like he says to Sandy, I'll give her to you. Yes,
Speaker 3: not that he's never spoken to her. He doesn't know
Speaker 3: this person, he never laid eyes on her before. Yes,
Speaker 3: she's not he's not his to give away. Yes, And
Speaker 3: then he gives it to the man who can't actually
Speaker 3: do it like yeah. I mean, it's a brilliant staged
Speaker 3: moment where he walks over and he just hangs and
Speaker 3: he's just he can't get the words out, and he
Speaker 3: goes back and then he you know, he goes back again.
Speaker 3: He's about a bail, and then it's it's Susan who
Speaker 3: actually breaks the ice.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And even when they have that phone call where
Speaker 1: they finally call it quits. I think it's I'm sure
Speaker 1: it must have been a choice. Well, it would have
Speaker 1: been a choice, no doubt that she's the one who
Speaker 1: hangs up. I guess I'm saying she's not the victim
Speaker 1: in the end, like she does. It's her choice to
Speaker 1: hang up. It's a version of that scene where it's
Speaker 1: Jonathan who hangs up in no face almost and and
Speaker 1: she's that sobbing, you know, but she's.
Speaker 3: Yeah, doesn't do that. And I think like the women
Speaker 3: in the film do seem to have some agency? Is
Speaker 3: it Louise at the end? Is that the name of
Speaker 3: the character who is Garfuncle sort of later in life partner, Yes,
Speaker 3: who arrives at Jonathan's house and is traded essentially by
Speaker 3: them in the kitchen. So the two boys in the
Speaker 3: kitchen are like basically trading their partner, trading their girlfriends, like, well,
Speaker 3: you sleep with her and I sleep with her, which
Speaker 3: is again not something that they can give away. When
Speaker 3: Cindy does leave, she says, you come around on your own, like,
Speaker 3: and I can make that decision for me, yes, but
Speaker 3: you two don't get to make that decision. So there
Speaker 3: is there's sort of like the people who have agency
Speaker 3: are actually the women in here, and that the people
Speaker 3: who are trapped in the cycle of the men, Yes,
Speaker 3: you know, trapped in that world going round and round
Speaker 3: and round.
Speaker 1: Well, they're trapped in the male almost a stereotype, aren't
Speaker 1: they are? Like they they think they had this juvenile
Speaker 1: opinion or thoughts on what a man and female relationship
Speaker 1: look like, and they don't. They just don't learn, they
Speaker 1: don't adapt like I'm sure as kids we thought about what,
Speaker 1: you know, a male a female relationship, you know, and
Speaker 1: a male male and a male female, and then you
Speaker 1: kind of get into one of those relationships and you realize, oh,
Speaker 1: this is not what I thought. I'm gonna like this.
Speaker 1: It's more complicated than I thought. There's more new ones involved,
Speaker 1: and I need to learn, I need to grow within
Speaker 1: this relationship. They don't do any of that, yea. So
Speaker 1: it's it's it's fascinating. This is early Jack Nicholson. What's
Speaker 1: your take. Obviously he's one of the you know, I
Speaker 1: think Mike Nichols called him Jules Fifer was concerned about him.
Speaker 1: He couldn't quite see him. I think originally they were
Speaker 1: two Jewish guys because written by a Jewish guy, directed
Speaker 1: by a Jewish guy. They they were going through that
Speaker 1: lens and he was concerned that Nicholson wasn't Jewish. And
Speaker 1: Mike Nichols said, this guy's the next Brando. He's probably
Speaker 1: a pass Brando.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think I was reading that Mike Nichols
Speaker 3: had watched a pre release tape of Easy Rider, right,
Speaker 3: and had seen him and so that's he's in it,
Speaker 3: that's the that's who we're getting. So that wasn't even
Speaker 3: out yet when Nicholson booked this role. I think you
Speaker 3: can see why Mike Nichols would have done that. Like,
Speaker 3: I mean, he's just so he's so fresh as well. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, he's so because this is like early days,
Speaker 3: so he's got a lot to prove too. But then
Speaker 3: I wonder if he'd done didn't he come from television
Speaker 3: or stage or something, because generally they all have you.
Speaker 1: Know, whenever I look at the IMDb, they've always done
Speaker 1: a lot more television. It's like they I think people
Speaker 1: get I'm not sure if Timothy Shallamay would have done
Speaker 1: it as much television and work before he went to
Speaker 1: the movies. You know, I think he was, you know,
Speaker 1: taking pretty quickly and is I think he's amazing.
Speaker 3: But he must have he must have had some experience
Speaker 3: because otherwise Mike Nichols just cast two people with no experience.
Speaker 3: Because Art Garfuncle's only other film was Catch twenty two,
Speaker 3: Mike Nichols's previous picture where he had a very small role. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but he was like, this guy looks sort of venomous,
Speaker 3: even though he's a sweet he sort of looks sweet,
Speaker 3: but then there's something sort of evil about his appearance
Speaker 3: in some way, there's something off about this guy, Like
Speaker 3: he look it looks like you can trust him, but
Speaker 3: then can you kind of like, but I think I
Speaker 3: think that's pretty much the reason that he cast Art
Speaker 3: Garfuncle with no acting experience for like one of the
Speaker 3: key roles in a two hander. Essentially yeah, but then
Speaker 3: I guess yeah, So Jack Nicholson really does sort of
Speaker 3: carry it a lot in that in his sort of
Speaker 3: charisma and pushes the film along with his confidence.
Speaker 1: And watching it now is potentially a little bit of
Speaker 1: a different experience in regards to Jack Nicholson, because we
Speaker 1: kind of we know Jack. He'm a famous womanizer, and
Speaker 1: there's always kind of there's that through films. You know,
Speaker 1: it's in Chinatown, you know, it's in a lot of
Speaker 1: his films.
Speaker 3: So sort of established here, but we look at like
Speaker 3: we're looking, well that's how it started.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So where golf Uncle does have a sweetness about him,
Speaker 1: and even when they're lying in bed and Niggason has
Speaker 1: his shirt off and and Sonny is in full pajamas,
Speaker 1: you know, like they're like they do Sandy Sandy, Sandy, Sandy, Sorry,
Speaker 1: apologies to apologies to Sunny from Greece, the last thing
Speaker 1: about you right now. But I think it's also in
Speaker 1: the casting. They do a good job of saying there
Speaker 1: are two snakes in the grassy, but there one is
Speaker 1: the you know, the daddy snake, and he's leading the
Speaker 1: other snake. Yeah, exactly to these situations.
Speaker 3: But then Garfunks's character is like just as bad in
Speaker 3: his own way.
Speaker 1: Like hes like it's interesting that you do not because
Speaker 1: it is about two men, like he's Nichols. He's not
Speaker 1: trying to tell a story on equal footing about the
Speaker 1: women's side of this, Like you don't see Candiesberg And
Speaker 1: even though he's she's married to uncle for not the
Speaker 1: rest of the movie, but he flips like again, you
Speaker 1: never see her again. And he's telling Jonathan. Sandy's telling
Speaker 1: Jonathan how well the marriage is going. We do our things.
Speaker 1: We like to read books aloud. And then he's like,
Speaker 1: do you want to get laid? Yeah, and then he's
Speaker 1: we've Cindy all of a sudden.
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, And because he never sees her again, Yeah,
Speaker 3: because we're seeing it from the point of view of
Speaker 3: these characters. Yeah, once he doesn't see her again. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so nother do we Yeah, like you know, just deleted
Speaker 3: from his life, deleted from our viewing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. And it's fascinating how Sandy does. He's
Speaker 1: susceptible to being influenced, Like he just adopts whatever the
Speaker 1: you know, philosophies are whoever he's having sex with at
Speaker 1: that time. Yeah, you know, I'm all in. So he
Speaker 1: wanted to read more because because Susan was well read.
Speaker 1: And then you know, with Cindy, he's he's free, now
Speaker 1: he's leaving, he's living life. This is how he should be.
Speaker 1: And then later on he's like got the mustache and
Speaker 1: I think in that of that strack suit, and you know,
Speaker 1: we don't really get to know. I think it's Carol
Speaker 1: Kaine's character as much. But yeah, he's very susceptible to
Speaker 1: being influenced.
Speaker 3: It's just whatever, whatever they're looking at. And Mike Nichols
Speaker 3: tries to do that to us as well with Anne Margaret,
Speaker 3: you know, first of all by casting and Margaret in
Speaker 3: that role.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk a little bit and Margaret. As
Speaker 1: far as before this, she was not taken seriously as
Speaker 1: an actor, like I think she was in Europe making
Speaker 1: kind of kind of B grade action films.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I mean I think her like we we
Speaker 3: get to talk about her tits a lot in this
Speaker 3: film in that way, the right a mantle or maybe
Speaker 3: just under a little nurse slightly slightly under. It's it's
Speaker 3: slightly more than we see them, but but it is
Speaker 3: it's almost level begging there because and that's I think
Speaker 3: who she was in these other pictures that she was
Speaker 3: making as well. Right, she's like, you know, sort of
Speaker 3: type cast, I guess, yes. And then the two Flipper.
Speaker 1: Yes, the term that would be used back then would
Speaker 1: be she was a sex pot, which is an awful
Speaker 1: term when you think about it, but very you know,
Speaker 1: very much lobsious and sexy and and those kind of
Speaker 1: actors were not taken seriously really at all, like Kate,
Speaker 1: like Racker Welsh may have liked, and she was considered
Speaker 1: I think I offered this role I think, and knocked
Speaker 1: it back and then later said the name Margaret. Actually
Speaker 1: she could never have done the kind of delimited performance
Speaker 1: that and Margaret did because it is a stunning performance
Speaker 1: one without necessarily knowing at the time, but she is
Speaker 1: in these two handed scenes with a young actor who
Speaker 1: had become they may be the greatest actor of his
Speaker 1: generation and she and she's holding her.
Speaker 3: Own absolutely yeah, and you know, and sort of cast
Speaker 3: I think to distract us as an audience, you know,
Speaker 3: like to fall into the same trap, to become Jack
Speaker 3: Nicholson character oling this woman in all her beauty and
Speaker 3: to focus on that and to sort of be like wow,
Speaker 3: you know, to sort of become this male gaze.
Speaker 1: A little bit.
Speaker 3: And obviously that is completely flipped and exposed when you
Speaker 3: know she's discovered overdosing and you know, like this is
Speaker 3: it's yeah, it becomes so awful, and but we've all
Speaker 3: just been enamored. So I think, like to be cast
Speaker 3: as a sort of trick, yeah, and then reveal that
Speaker 3: performance behind it, you know, as we get closer and
Speaker 3: closer and closer to falling off that cliff. Is probably
Speaker 3: why she was nominated for the Oscar and won the
Speaker 3: Golden Globe. And the first time we see Bobby with
Speaker 3: the character's name is there on a date she's the
Speaker 3: breasts are on, you know, are on show that you know,
Speaker 3: so we know, like you know that it's chili, Yeah, chillis,
Speaker 3: but we know.
Speaker 1: It's such a shot in Vancouver.
Speaker 6: I think.
Speaker 1: We know we know that Jonathan is. He has stated
Speaker 1: from the app that those voiceovers at the start with
Speaker 1: the conversation they're having, he's all about the breast, you know,
Speaker 1: and the legs and it's all physical with him. So
Speaker 1: they did need the cast a, you know, a physical specimen,
Speaker 1: you know, like somebody who was well put together to use,
Speaker 1: well built, well built, that's right. And Jane Fonder I
Speaker 1: think not the roll back because she said, well, I'm
Speaker 1: not built the way this characters written, and you know,
Speaker 1: and I think she had other other reason why she
Speaker 1: didn't want to do what she went under to do clute,
Speaker 1: which she won the Oscar for that she beat and
Speaker 1: Margaret in that Oscar race. But I you see her
Speaker 1: and she's looking stunning. She's obviously a beautiful woman, and
Speaker 1: Jonathan's actually enamored. He she completely has his attention. But
Speaker 1: they're only like revolving kind of restaurant which is kind
Speaker 1: of floating. Well, Frank Sinacher's Dreams plays in the restaurant,
Speaker 1: so it is so beautifully done. And then in the
Speaker 1: car that they're flirting about the idea of marriage and
Speaker 1: all that, and it's just it's very sexy. And then
Speaker 1: they get home and that you know, they they have
Speaker 1: sex and then it's you know, it's all happy days
Speaker 1: for a little while.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, And that happens a couple of times actually,
Speaker 3: where the world is sort of floating behind the women
Speaker 3: that we're looking at, even even at the end with
Speaker 3: the very final woman that Jonathan's got, which is a
Speaker 3: sex worker. But even as we drop into his point
Speaker 3: of view and looking straight ahead at maybe that's Louise
Speaker 3: that the name of that character. Anyway, the wallpaper behind
Speaker 3: is just slowly moving and so the world's moving around
Speaker 3: constantly the only thing these men are looking at, yeah,
Speaker 3: like through the whole picture, like relentlessly, and.
Speaker 1: It's these great well, actually, let's let's talk about these
Speaker 1: close up, because this is what Jules Fiffer thought this
Speaker 1: was going to be a play. He gave to Mike Nichols,
Speaker 1: the director's a play, and Mike Nichols said, no, I
Speaker 1: want to see these characters. I want to see them
Speaker 1: up close. I want to see their you know, their
Speaker 1: brains were kind of working behind their words. And yeah,
Speaker 1: those close ups with I think they all get one. Well, well,
Speaker 1: certainly Jonathan and Sandy change with the grease character in
Speaker 1: your head. It's a living they get their their close up,
Speaker 1: and Susan gets one. Susan gets wonder others. Yes, there's
Speaker 1: also those shots where they just stay on the character
Speaker 1: and that's an extraordinary, I think performance by Cannicebergen. And
Speaker 1: I think also Jonathan gets one, but she's participating in
Speaker 1: this conversation and she's laughing.
Speaker 3: And I think, like, you know, we're talking earlier about
Speaker 3: how you can sometimes tell it's to play when you're
Speaker 3: watching a film, you can be like, oh, this started
Speaker 3: as a play, or this is meant to be on stage.
Speaker 3: And this is sort of a weird version of that,
Speaker 3: I think, where you can tell it's written as a play,
Speaker 3: except the way that it's shot, it could never be
Speaker 3: your play because we focus on the people who aren't
Speaker 3: talking constantly. These conversations we're talking about earlier as well,
Speaker 3: with Jonathan and Sandy walking talking about well, I like
Speaker 3: the tits and I like the legs, and it's got
Speaker 3: to be this and it's got to be that. Is
Speaker 3: these extreme wides, extreme wide shots of them walking down
Speaker 3: pathways and in the distance, and eventually they get to
Speaker 3: us towards the end of a shot, so we can
Speaker 3: place them in the scene. But essentially we're not looking
Speaker 3: at them. We're forced to listen to this language. And
Speaker 3: then when we look at it, you know, we got
Speaker 3: a close up of Susan and we're just she's not
Speaker 3: talking for ages. We're just listening to these two men again,
Speaker 3: go back and forth, back and forth, and this is
Speaker 3: time and time again, where even the opening of the
Speaker 3: picture they talk for a very long time over the
Speaker 3: titles where we don't get to see them for ages.
Speaker 3: We first we have to listen to them talk about
Speaker 3: breasts and legs and butts, and it just is again
Speaker 3: and again and again. So it's sort of this play
Speaker 3: that you can't do that on a stage because you
Speaker 3: just have the just walk off the wings, like we've
Speaker 3: got to watch something, and so we watch the trees
Speaker 3: blow or we watch the people who are listening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and one of the really strong choices I think
Speaker 1: they make is and this is I guess credit the
Speaker 1: Jules Pfeiffer who wrote it, that you think like there's
Speaker 1: a version of this film, of course, where the drama
Speaker 1: comes from the fact that Sandy finds out that Jonathan
Speaker 1: went behind his back and dated Susan, but we never
Speaker 1: find out like that. I love when writers directors make
Speaker 1: strong choices where you're going to go, oh, well, that's
Speaker 1: the obvious place to go find that and everything blows up,
Speaker 1: but not once does he find out.
Speaker 3: Towards the end, there's a glimmer it does, and then
Speaker 3: so the question then becomes what does he do with it?
Speaker 3: Because that's so much later in life. We're watching the
Speaker 3: Ballbuster's parade that Jonathan's put together.
Speaker 1: Have you ever spliced the film together of ex loves Conquests?
Speaker 1: Maybe twice? Mine's a short film rop first, and so.
Speaker 3: Jonathan has put like a slide show like he's got
Speaker 3: back from travels in Southeast Asia.
Speaker 1: Did you think the film finished? Because I did too, Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3: Yep, some credits and I was like, did he this
Speaker 3: is a documentary because his name pops up directed by
Speaker 3: But in there he makes the mistake. He accidentally puts
Speaker 3: Susan in when he's clicking through its clicking through all
Speaker 3: the women that he's slept with, kissed or everything going
Speaker 3: back to when he was twelve. He's kept a record
Speaker 3: of every single one. Myrtle is not in there, which
Speaker 3: was the name of the character that he'd created, who
Speaker 3: was actually Susan to tell Sandy, you know I've slept
Speaker 3: with Myrtle or you can't meet her yet.
Speaker 1: It's actually Susan. So Myrtle's not in there. Susan is.
Speaker 3: And he flicks over it very quickly and says, oh,
Speaker 3: that's a mistake. Hit and then hits the next one
Speaker 3: straight away, and we just get two shots of like
Speaker 3: Funkle looking across, looking across the first time, and then
Speaker 3: he keeps moving on and he looks again, and then
Speaker 3: he leaves in silence. Yes, and his partner at the time,
Speaker 3: who's the one that we don't really get to meet
Speaker 3: very much, she leaves because she's so disgusted by what
Speaker 3: she's seen, and he follows, perhaps in support, But then
Speaker 3: the way he looks back from the front door is
Speaker 3: like a penny's dropped, but he doesn't mention it. And
Speaker 3: they catch up later. Yeah, like, and so it's not addressed.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm missing I'm gonna look scene again. They kind
Speaker 1: of see what garf Uncle does in that moment where
Speaker 1: Susan pops up. And what's great about it It works
Speaker 1: either way. If you missed it, that's fine because I
Speaker 1: think one of the you know, it's also Sandy's saying
Speaker 1: that Jonathan silently with a look, this is sad, this
Speaker 1: is he brought us over here for this, this is
Speaker 1: and he's been Jonathan's being the king in Sandy's eyes.
Speaker 1: He's lapped up all his advice. And maybe there's a
Speaker 1: bit of regret in like, I've spit my life following
Speaker 1: your lead and yeah, and this is what has become.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then but then another reading of it could
Speaker 3: be that, well you got me on that one, but
Speaker 3: it's all part of the play. And then when they're
Speaker 3: walking down the street after that together and you know,
Speaker 3: they just they're just trapped forever in their own versions
Speaker 3: of this awfulness.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we get to the end, which is Jonathan with
Speaker 1: this sex worker and they've got their routine done. In fact,
Speaker 1: when she deviates slightly from the routine, he explodes and
Speaker 1: then they have to reset and do it again one again.
Speaker 1: I missed the moving kind of wall paper behind her,
Speaker 1: but great performance by that actress. I apologize. I'll look
Speaker 1: her up actually right now. But again I think just
Speaker 1: I was wondering how they were going to end where
Speaker 1: this was going to end up, and for it to base.
Speaker 1: The way I saw it is Jonathan is in this
Speaker 1: loop now and he's not getting out of his the
Speaker 1: traps of his ears and upsetting for himself. He's not
Speaker 1: escaping from yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: And you know, earlier on in the picture we see
Speaker 3: an ice skater and a man chasing around the ice skater.
Speaker 3: They comment like, look at that old guy trying to
Speaker 3: chase that ice skater. And then the very last thing
Speaker 3: of the picture is an ice skater.
Speaker 1: Again, Yes, at one point, did you ever think that
Speaker 1: that ice skater possibly was Bobby. I did have that thought.
Speaker 1: I don't think it is, but I did go like
Speaker 1: she had a lot of the same physical you know.
Speaker 3: She's certainly built the way that Jonathan is attracted to.
Speaker 3: But I see I see that at the end by
Speaker 3: coming back to the ice skaters, like, well that's Jonathan.
Speaker 1: Now, he's that old man.
Speaker 3: Now he's just following her around and will never stop
Speaker 3: looking at this sort of pirouetting.
Speaker 1: I think you're right, Rita Marino was the It's worth
Speaker 1: pointing that out because I think she was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's in it for fifteen seconds. You could have
Speaker 3: got nominated for Best Support. Incredible, really good, really good.
Speaker 1: But let's have a listen to this fight scene between
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholson and Margaret. No, this is probably one of
Speaker 1: the moments of the picture. Yeah, and this is this
Speaker 1: is I guess where again? And Margaret holds her own
Speaker 1: and this is Jack in full flight. This is, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe one of the first times we see Yeah, built
Speaker 1: his career off the handle. Yeah, get a job.
Speaker 2: I don't want a job. Want you have taken by me.
Speaker 5: Get out of the house, do something useful.
Speaker 1: Goddamn it.
Speaker 4: You wouldn't let me work when I wanted to. That
Speaker 4: was a year ago, ten to every time you're calling
Speaker 4: I'm that home, look.
Speaker 5: Sister, I'm out there in the jungle eight hours a day.
Speaker 2: You wouldn't even let me canvas for Kennedy. You want
Speaker 2: a job, I got a.
Speaker 1: Job for you.
Speaker 2: Fix up this pig sty.
Speaker 5: You get a pretty goddamn good salary for testing out
Speaker 5: this bed all day. You want an extra fifty dollars
Speaker 5: a week, Try vacuuming. You want an extra hundred make
Speaker 5: this goddamn bed. Try Holy some goddamn windows. That's why
Speaker 5: you can't stand up in here. The goddamn place smells.
Speaker 3: Like a coffin.
Speaker 6: Oh you don't need me. Why do you let yourself
Speaker 6: in for this kind of abuse?
Speaker 2: Walk out? Leave me?
Speaker 6: Please leave me, God's sake, I'd almost marry if you
Speaker 6: leave me. Colored abuse. You don't know what I'm used to.
Speaker 6: Oh you're carrying on.
Speaker 1: I mean there's a great dialogue. I mean, I'll almost
Speaker 1: marry you if you left me. I mean, it's just
Speaker 1: it's just brilliant. But it just really does like this is,
Speaker 1: this is, This film is as relevant today as it
Speaker 1: wasn't not seventy one, because you just devastating. It's depressing,
Speaker 1: it's completely depressing. You do ask yourself the question why
Speaker 1: do people stay in these relationships?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 1: And I don't have the answers, but it does kind
Speaker 1: of go, yeah, why and both parties, both parties can leave.
Speaker 1: But there's no there's obviously some violence coming from Jonathan
Speaker 1: now with the yelling and the screaming, but you kind.
Speaker 3: Of go asking things of her that he won't allow
Speaker 3: her to do.
Speaker 1: Yes, like basically tells her to quit her job, and
Speaker 1: then questions how she spends her time when you've already
Speaker 1: demanded basically that she leaves her to get a job. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's a successful job. She was doing very well.
Speaker 1: She was happy. I mean, she was happy, and that's
Speaker 1: the tragedy. She was happy when she met him and
Speaker 1: now she's and.
Speaker 3: The tragedy dialogue there of you call this abuse, Yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, like just a tiny window open to like
Speaker 3: the history and so.
Speaker 1: The feeling that she's been through this and when you
Speaker 1: think back at that first date, she would have hoping
Speaker 1: that this was going to be different this time, and
Speaker 1: it's become maybe a cycle for her, but extraordinary dialogue.
Speaker 1: There are a few things that I just wanted to
Speaker 1: and I'm just going to jump around some of the
Speaker 1: just shots and by the great Mike Nichols. The dance
Speaker 1: sequence is great when they're they don't know who's they
Speaker 1: never find out. We suspect maybe they yes, but at
Speaker 1: the time they don't know. And there's a great dance
Speaker 1: sequence where she's dancing, Susan's dancing with Sandy and then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden it switches to there's a little
Speaker 1: twirl and all of a sudden she's dancing with Jonathan. Actually,
Speaker 1: I think I must have looked down and make a night.
Speaker 1: I looked up it was Jonathan. I thought I actually rewound.
Speaker 1: I was like I was going to skip back to
Speaker 1: to that.
Speaker 3: It's beautifully done sort of similar one to that is
Speaker 3: or maybe this is on your list as well. But
Speaker 3: when they're both dating Susan to begin with, there's a
Speaker 3: sort of a back and forth basically with who's going
Speaker 3: to sleep with her first, that even though Sandy doesn't
Speaker 3: know that Jonathan's dating, and that's kind of what's being
Speaker 3: presented to us. And then when the sex scene arrives
Speaker 3: to begin with, we don't know who it is exactly.
Speaker 3: For ages, we don't know until Jonathan rolls off, and
Speaker 3: then it's revealed who won, and it's like it's it's
Speaker 3: this awful it's being presented as this awful competition. We
Speaker 3: become complicit as we want to find out. We're sitting
Speaker 3: there wanting to find out who who is that is
Speaker 3: that who's who's won?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and and and that it was the next
Speaker 1: show I wanted to bring up. And that's beautifully put
Speaker 1: because even Susan's face is kind of partially covered as well.
Speaker 1: It's almost the only thing you can see. In fact,
Speaker 1: at first, I was like, are in the car? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was watching my covert on the ground somewhere. I
Speaker 1: mean the fact that there were so many up close.
Speaker 1: It is all kind of shot up in close, like
Speaker 1: the world they are really in their heads. And then
Speaker 1: you know, there's very like I said, there, that's a
Speaker 1: good point you made before. There's wide shots where they're
Speaker 1: just they're doing that way men talk with each other.
Speaker 1: But yeah, a lot of it is like really close,
Speaker 1: like there's no establishing shot of this is well, you know, no,
Speaker 1: he's not interested in that. Yeah, there's in great lines
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 3: That's that that shot is also like a reaction shot,
Speaker 3: even though no one's actually talking in that one. You know,
Speaker 3: we talked about before about all these shots where everyone's
Speaker 3: talking back and forth and we're focused on the listener.
Speaker 3: That's sort of what's happening in that shot too. She's
Speaker 3: listening in a way. This is happening to her. Yeah,
Speaker 3: she's like, you do not get the sense that she's
Speaker 3: enjoying this all that much?
Speaker 1: No, No, well, because I think she's also it's the
Speaker 1: first time.
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, so again it's another version even though
Speaker 3: there's nothing there's no dialogue, but it's another version of
Speaker 3: that same shot of like, you know, we're not looking
Speaker 3: at the the active participant, we're looking at the listener.
Speaker 3: We're looking at the person that it's happening.
Speaker 1: To, and pretty repulsive, like when you when you really
Speaker 1: think about it. Because the next scene I think is
Speaker 1: when jack Jonathan in the pool celebrating and he's celebrating
Speaker 1: with supposedly say best friend, and it's like, what was
Speaker 1: your game plan? Yeah, yeah, it's kind of staggering.
Speaker 3: Then Standy ends up celebrating with him back like he's
Speaker 3: so happy for him too, Yeah, not realizing what's actually
Speaker 3: happened to you.
Speaker 1: There's a great line, you can't make fucking your life's work.
Speaker 1: I thought that was it's a very good line. Also,
Speaker 1: when Bobby brings up the idea of getting married initially
Speaker 1: before everything has turned pear shaped, I think Jackson's got
Speaker 1: a shower and he's got a towel and he sits
Speaker 1: down these I thought directions very funny. Is for about
Speaker 1: a minute, it's just like it sounds, it sounds very good.
Speaker 1: Yeah it's good. Yeah, well it's yeah, it's a very
Speaker 1: good idea. Let's let's just see goes on a quite
Speaker 1: a while.
Speaker 3: What's that He's like, yeah, yeah, like that energy for
Speaker 3: a very long time because we.
Speaker 1: Want to be sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, there's also that why eyes wide open?
Speaker 1: We want to? Is that it we want to?
Speaker 3: We want to we want to make sure we're seeing it.
Speaker 1: With clear eyes. Yeah that's right. Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 1: Do you think he is Jonathan is in love with
Speaker 1: Susan or is it is it still? Does he wants
Speaker 1: to beat I think Andy.
Speaker 3: I think it's just yeah, got to beeat Sandy and
Speaker 3: the easiest target, I think, because it's all been bravado
Speaker 3: up unto then I'll give it to you. And then
Speaker 3: he finds out that Sandy got a hand job, it's like, oh, well,
Speaker 3: maybe should do that for me. Yeah, it's I think
Speaker 3: it's as simple as that. Yeah, not in love, and
Speaker 3: there's no love there's.
Speaker 1: At the moment because he it's just a you know,
Speaker 1: unique kind of I've never seen it in the film
Speaker 1: before where Sandy says, you know, he's she's amazing and
Speaker 1: she can read my thoughts and she tells me these
Speaker 1: thoughts before I've ever had these thoughts. And then Jonathan
Speaker 1: goes to her and he demands that she tell him.
Speaker 1: He's thought, why aren't you doing this to me?
Speaker 6: Well?
Speaker 1: Why why? Why did I get this tell? I'm thinking, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because Susan does have this thing going on where she
Speaker 1: both men are serving needs for her or desires for
Speaker 1: her in a way. The intellectual or the sensitivity. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure if Sandy's giving her is intellectually inspiring her,
Speaker 1: but there's a sensitivity I think that she's drawn to.
Speaker 1: But as a I think as a lover, as you know,
Speaker 1: as a you know, she can see that Jonathan is
Speaker 1: offering more. I mean when Sandy, when they're lying in
Speaker 1: the bed, so fucking Sandy, take your tie off, mate.
Speaker 1: And there is there's a lot of coercing in this
Speaker 1: film that is obviously meant to be uncomfortable, but we have,
Speaker 1: like we said, these men do not get away with it.
Speaker 1: It's uncomfortable. But like I said, I think some subject
Speaker 1: matters can be triggering for people. But if the characters
Speaker 1: get their come up, and that's what maddens in the end, I.
Speaker 3: Think, yeah, and they're living the worst possible life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, some fun facts before we wrap up. I thank
Speaker 1: you this podcast comes with homework. We're already doing your homework, actually.
Speaker 3: Already and it's my homework really has a test. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so it's great, it's great.
Speaker 1: Is there is there another Mike Nichols film that you
Speaker 1: would like, say, if you haven't seen it, see this
Speaker 1: may be outside of the graduate?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was going to say outside the graduate.
Speaker 1: I think Virginia Who's afraid of Virginia? Woof?
Speaker 3: Which is I think to watch that and go this
Speaker 3: is his first picture. Yeah, this is his first film,
Speaker 3: and think about that with Burt Reynolds and Elizabeth Taylor yeah,
Speaker 3: no less yeah, yeah, and it's just yeah, it's incredible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that one.
Speaker 3: And I think it's similar to knon Knowledge actually that
Speaker 3: people know. Oh that's oh that's one of those good
Speaker 3: films that I haven't seen. Yes, and it is really
Speaker 3: worth as is this like going and watching.
Speaker 1: It because I have not seen it. The first I
Speaker 1: heard of Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf the line in Cheers,
Speaker 1: which I loved growing up, in which Frasier. Yeah, I said, oh,
Speaker 1: we've turned into Who's Afraid of Seeing? From Who's afraid
Speaker 1: of Virginia welf and I got a big laugh and
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, don't get it. So I did
Speaker 1: look forward watching that film. The tagline for Carlin Knowledge
Speaker 1: when it came out in ninety to every one, obviously
Speaker 1: it's r rated like this, They had to it broke down.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was outlawed in like Georgia and in Ireland.
Speaker 1: It wasn't released until nineteen and eighty nine, years after
Speaker 1: it was released in cinemas. The tagline was the US
Speaker 1: Supreme Court has ruled that Carlin Knowledge is not obscene.
Speaker 1: See it now? It's very clever. Yeah, yeah, it's great.
Speaker 1: The fight scene between Jack when we listened to and
Speaker 1: Margaret took a week to shoot and both had lost
Speaker 1: their voices by the end of it. This movie also
Speaker 1: has the honor of having the first condom on screen.
Speaker 3: Well, and then I but I saw an interview with
Speaker 3: Mike Nichols where he said there's one in the graduate
Speaker 3: just no one noticed.
Speaker 1: Ah, yeah, my Nicholas just trumping himself. Yeah, but Mike
Speaker 1: Nichol certainly obsessed. Yeah. Yes. And also the first sea bomb.
Speaker 1: Oh really yeah, yes, it's well placed. It is well placed. Yes,
Speaker 1: And that's actually I think we've covered the rest of
Speaker 1: our fun facts within our conversation, which is always good mate.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Joy, And from a Melbourne based comedian,
Speaker 1: I want to thank you and congratulate you on Comedy Republic.
Speaker 1: It is an extraordinary venue. It is the coolest comedy
Speaker 1: club in Australia and no doubt one of the best
Speaker 1: in the world. You have built a purpose built comedy
Speaker 1: club and it is an extraordinary place to go whether
Speaker 1: you're going to see a show. And were comedians during
Speaker 1: the comedy Festival, that's now the place where you go
Speaker 1: after you've done your show and you hang Yes, thank
Speaker 1: you and well done on that my pleasure. The city
Speaker 1: seems like it needed it. And I wasn't busy during
Speaker 1: a pandemic. I released a travel book during the pandemic,
Speaker 1: so I mean, but that was way less.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: I still made some money. I still paid to do it,
Speaker 1: but no extraordinary and great stuff mate, And yeah, thanks
Speaker 1: thanks for hanging out and chatting Mike Nichols with me pleasure,
Speaker 1: absolute joy anytime. Yes, that was Karen Nicholson. What a fun, funny,
Speaker 1: generous informed man he is. And yeah, I really enjoyed
Speaker 1: that was a movie I hadn't seen. I like it
Speaker 1: both ways. I like it when I have seen the
Speaker 1: movie and I love the movie, and I'm excited by
Speaker 1: a guest watching for the first time, but I equally
Speaker 1: love when I'm discovering it for the first time. And
Speaker 1: Carl and Knowledge was a film that had been on
Speaker 1: my radar for many years, not necessarily the top of
Speaker 1: my radar, but yeah, certainly anything involving Mike Nichols had
Speaker 1: to be gotten to at some point. And Guard Funkel,
Speaker 1: he was good surprising him, act some more fun movie. Jack.
Speaker 1: There'll be more Jack. We haven't done five easy pieces yet.
Speaker 1: The last detail will get to very keen to get
Speaker 1: to that one, so it'll be definitely more Jack and
Speaker 1: more than Mike Nichols. Who's afraid of Virginia Wolf. Maybe
Speaker 1: we'll get there. Thanks everyone who's listening. We have a
Speaker 1: live episode of Yasney coming up at the Melbourne International
Speaker 1: Comedy Festival. Jump on the Comedy Festival website. It's with
Speaker 1: Nick Cody. Nick Cody will be there. There'll be some
Speaker 1: other special guests as well. And the movie we are
Speaker 1: covering is Back to the Future. Back to the Future,
Speaker 1: it's a classic. It's obviously been looming large for this podcast.
Speaker 1: Who will do it. Nick Cody has not seen it.
Speaker 1: He will step up to the plate. Nick Brisbane Radio Listeners,
Speaker 1: Melbourne Radio Listeners, Project Viewers. He's one of the best
Speaker 1: in the biz on stage as well, very funny. Man
Speaker 1: does a great podcast called mid Flight Brawl and it's
Speaker 1: an absolutely so looking forward to having Nick live on
Speaker 1: stage with special guests back to the Future at the
Speaker 1: Melbourne International Comedy Festival. Off the top of my head,
Speaker 1: I think it's not the thirteenth, Saturday the thirteenth. Check
Speaker 1: the website and come along and yeah, happily to have
Speaker 1: a chat afterwards and have a beer. If you want
Speaker 1: to support the podcast, the best way you can do
Speaker 1: it is go to iTunes, give it a five stary
Speaker 1: rating and write a nice review. We'd love to hear
Speaker 1: your voice on this podcast. Follow the links on the
Speaker 1: page and yeah, you can leave a voice message for
Speaker 1: us about opinions, questions, anything you have about Yasni next
Speaker 1: week on the show. Really looking forward to this one.
Speaker 1: This is a comedy star on the rise, no doubt
Speaker 1: about that. Brett Blake will be joining me on the show.
Speaker 1: Fascinating thing about Brett Blake is that he actually works
Speaker 1: not only on stage. And he's a comedian who's been
Speaker 1: at the Melbourne in Flacial Comedy Festival Gala. He was
Speaker 1: on the tourists recently. But he also works in the industry.
Speaker 1: He works in lighting. You know, he's on sets. He
Speaker 1: still works and loves it, so he will have a
Speaker 1: genuine insight. And next week we're going to go back
Speaker 1: to the early eighties and do a comedy. Always fun
Speaker 1: to get comedians takes on comedies, and Brett Blake will
Speaker 1: be looking at the Carl Rainer directed Steve Martin Biek.
Speaker 1: I think it was his debut film, The Jerk. Yes,
Speaker 1: we will be tackling The Jerk next week on You
Speaker 1: Ain't Seen Nothing Yet with very funny Brett Blake. Until
Speaker 1: then by for an hour and so we leave old
Speaker 1: Pete save Mancell and to our friends of the radio audience,
Speaker 1: we've been a pleasant good name.