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Speaker 1: It's The Happy Family's podcast with doctor Justin Coulson, the

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Speaker 1: podcast for the time Poor Parent who just Wants Answers Now.

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Speaker 1: Yesterday I had a conversation with the ABC about how

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Speaker 1: to talk with our children about the suicide that was

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Speaker 1: shown on social media this week. It's obviously caused ripples

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Speaker 1: right throughout the global community and caused all sorts of

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Speaker 1: concerns around what social media is about and how we

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Speaker 1: should be helping our children to use it safely. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to share this interview with you in its entirety.

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Speaker 1: I hope that it's helpful.

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Speaker 2: Parenting expert Justin Coulson says there are tough conversations to

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Speaker 2: be had with our children about this, and it's important

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Speaker 2: to have them, and he joins us this afternoon, Good afternoon, Justin.

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Speaker 3: You, and it's nice to talk with you. Unfortunately the

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Speaker 3: topic's not so great, but it's nice to be with you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I know that when you first heard about this video, Justin,

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Speaker 2: you quickly fired off a text to your children telling

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Speaker 2: them not to watch. Was that enough?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's an important beginning. It's really important when there

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Speaker 3: are distressing and concerning things that happen in the world.

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Speaker 3: We want to pre arm our children to the extent possible.

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Speaker 3: We can't cocoon them all the time. Obviously, younger children

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Speaker 3: should be cocooned to the extent that they can be.

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Speaker 3: We want to protect them from these devastating things that

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Speaker 3: are on social media or happenings in the world, whether

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Speaker 3: you know it's a bombing or whatever it might be.

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Speaker 3: But as they get older, they will find out. And

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Speaker 3: as it happened, I sent that text message through to

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Speaker 3: my children and my thirteen year old came home from

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Speaker 3: school and said, Dad, everybody's talking about it, and a

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Speaker 3: bunch of a bunch of the kids at my school

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Speaker 3: have seen. Some of them are even walking around the

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Speaker 3: playground showing people. And one of the most concerning things

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Speaker 3: I think is some of these kids were actually talking

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Speaker 3: about how hilarious it was, because you know, it's on

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Speaker 3: a screen and they feel so it's so dehumanizing, but

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Speaker 3: they're so detached from it they couldn't they couldn't connect

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Speaker 3: with the humanity of the struggling human who had died

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Speaker 3: by suicide.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in some ways, there's nothing really new there. You

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Speaker 2: can totally understand that because these are the sorts of

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Speaker 2: things that were happening have been happening in school yards

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Speaker 2: for years and years and years. Really, there's always been

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Speaker 2: kind of distressing videos floating around in horrible images on

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Speaker 2: the internet and those sorts of things, and kids, sometimes

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Speaker 2: particularly boys. I think it's kind of a social capital

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Speaker 2: in being the first to make a joke about it

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Speaker 2: and sharing it around those sorts of things.

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Speaker 3: That's the word that I use. You know, I don't

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Speaker 3: think that there's any excuse for it. I don't think

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Speaker 3: that we should be saying this is teenagers just being teenagers,

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Speaker 3: that it's just not okay. And as parents, we've got

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Speaker 3: to have careful conversations with our children. But I don't

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Speaker 3: want to be somebody who's going to advocate for you know,

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Speaker 3: kids are just kids, and they aren't dependetized, and isn't

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Speaker 3: it no, No, they actually are big enough to know.

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Speaker 3: And if they're big enough to know, then we've got

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Speaker 3: to make sure that we guide them to better ways

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Speaker 3: of acting.

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Speaker 2: Okay. I ask whether it's enough to sort of tell

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Speaker 2: you your children not to just watch it, because inherently

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Speaker 2: we know that children are very curious, though, and when

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Speaker 2: you're told not to do something, sometimes you will hunt

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Speaker 2: it out to find out exactly why you didn't need

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Speaker 2: to do it, and you regret it in the end.

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Speaker 2: But how do you have that conversation? How do you

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Speaker 2: get that point across without just saying please don't ever

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Speaker 2: watch this.

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Speaker 3: Well, the first thing that you do is you probably

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Speaker 3: want to say please don't ever watch this. But I

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Speaker 3: think a slightly softer approach might be more helpful. And

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Speaker 3: the way that I frame it is I encourage parents

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Speaker 3: to get curious, not furious. You see, the more directing

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Speaker 3: we are, the more liking is that our children are

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Speaker 3: going to when you can't tell me what to do

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Speaker 3: and I'll go and look it up. I mean I

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Speaker 3: heard in some schools, you know, that the head of

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Speaker 3: the year or the head of the house walked in

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Speaker 3: and said, kids, this has happened. I don't want anyone

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Speaker 3: to use their phones to look this up. And so

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Speaker 3: what are the kids going to? Go?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you better? Whereas if instead we have small group conversations,

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Speaker 3: or we just talk to our own children individually and

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Speaker 3: we say things like, so I heard about this thing,

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Speaker 3: what did you hear? How did it make you feel?

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Speaker 3: What's your response to it? How did your friends respond?

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Speaker 3: What do you think you would do if somebody tried

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Speaker 3: to show it to you? How does it leave you

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Speaker 3: feeling to know that this is what's happened. By being

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Speaker 3: curious rather than furious, by exploring rather than exploding, or

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Speaker 3: you know, but by connecting rather than correcting, what we

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Speaker 3: do is we get our child to start to share

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Speaker 3: how they're feeling about it, and they actually start to

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Speaker 3: rely on their own in a moral compass rather than

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Speaker 3: thinking that they've got to push back against us. You know,

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Speaker 3: force creates resistance. The more you try to force them,

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Speaker 3: the more they'll push back.

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Speaker 2: How much is it important do you think justin to

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Speaker 2: make this this demand behind this video, I guess real

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Speaker 2: person in our children's eyes and not just another internet meme.

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Speaker 3: To me, that's the next step of the conversation. So

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Speaker 3: after we've made sure that they're doing okay, made sure

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Speaker 3: that they've got some wise responses and safe, healthy responses

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Speaker 3: to those questions that we've asked them, the next thing

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Speaker 3: is to say, well, let's just pause for a moment

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Speaker 3: and let's recognize that this was a human. This was

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Speaker 3: a person who must have been so terribly distressed. What

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Speaker 3: do you think was happening for him. Why do you

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Speaker 3: think that he chose to life stream this? And what

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Speaker 3: can we do to be a support to the people

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Speaker 3: around us who might be struggling so that we don't

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Speaker 3: end up with more and more of this happening. I

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Speaker 3: think that that's where we teach our children empathy and perspective,

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Speaker 3: and maybe even teach them to show some compassion to

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Speaker 3: those who are struggling around them.

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Speaker 2: The Prime Minister today has spoken about taking phones and

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Speaker 2: tablets of kids until it's sort of as the social

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Speaker 2: media giants have done their job in pulling this video

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Speaker 2: down as much as possible, I know that how plenty

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Speaker 2: of schools are kind of doing the same. You're not

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Speaker 2: always for that approach, sir, justin no, with.

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Speaker 3: Respect to the Prime Minister who is just dealing with

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Speaker 3: a lot of things right now, he doesn't have a

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Speaker 3: PhD in psychology, and I don't think that that's going

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Speaker 3: to be the best thing to do. What children tend

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Speaker 3: to do when parents become punitive, when parents say to

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Speaker 3: them I'm going to take your phone off you is

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Speaker 3: they become defensive, They lie, and we push their unwanted

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Speaker 3: behavior underground. They just think to themselves well, I'm just

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Speaker 3: going to make sure that my parents don't have any

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Speaker 3: idea what I'm doing from now on. A far better

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Speaker 3: response is to say, I'm really concerned about your access

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Speaker 3: to these apps at the moment, because this content's there

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Speaker 3: and it's springing up in unexpected places. Can we work

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Speaker 3: together to figure out how we can help you to

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Speaker 3: stay safe? And when we empower our children to come

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Speaker 3: up with these solutions, they're far more likely to buy

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Speaker 3: in and make decisions. Ideally, they'll say, well, what about

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Speaker 3: if I delete the app for a few days. I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's the best solution. Or maybe they might even say

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Speaker 3: how about if I hand you my phone for a

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Speaker 3: couple of days? Said no teenager, ever. But if we

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Speaker 3: try to confiscate the phone, I say, well, I just

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Speaker 3: need to look after it. You can have it back

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Speaker 3: in a couple of days when all this has died down.

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Speaker 3: You know, this kind of material has been on the

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Speaker 3: Internet for a long time. This isn't the first, certainly

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Speaker 3: might be the last. I remember being at a conference

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Speaker 3: back when ISIS was a really big deal, and one

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Speaker 3: of the speakers at the conference just unfortunately failed to

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Speaker 3: really capture the student's attention and the students who were

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Speaker 3: in that group, many of them in grades ten, eleven, twelve,

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Speaker 3: you know, they were more senior students. They started to

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Speaker 3: attack the chat group that was available for children to

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Speaker 3: text during the presentation by sharing images from ISIS beheadings.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this is appalling behavior. It's completely unacceptable most

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Speaker 3: children were dealt with. But I that to highlight that

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Speaker 3: if kids want to find this kind of material, it's

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Speaker 3: already there. Taking their devices off them isn't going to

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Speaker 3: prevent them from finding out. They might stop them from

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Speaker 3: finding out about this one, but there's plenty more that's

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Speaker 3: out there. The conversations that we have and the way

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Speaker 3: that we support them to make safe, healthy, wise decisions

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Speaker 3: are far more valuable than stealing their device back for

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Speaker 3: a couple of days until this all blows over.

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Speaker 2: YEA, how can you tell if your child has had

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Speaker 2: a sort of adverse reaction to watching it? As you mentioned,

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Speaker 2: some will make a light of it, some will joke

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Speaker 2: about it, some may bounce back and say nothing more

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Speaker 2: about it. But there will be a certain cohort you imagine,

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Speaker 2: who may take it really to heart.

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Speaker 3: Well, let me be really clear about this. There are

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Speaker 3: a couple of different reactions that I've heard about a

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Speaker 3: lot over the last twenty four hours. Reaction number one

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Speaker 3: is my child has seen this and she is or

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Speaker 3: he is devastated. That is what we might call an

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Speaker 3: adverse reaction, but it's also a sensitive, sensible, appropriate reaction,

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Speaker 3: and I'll talk about how we can deal with it

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Speaker 3: just a moment. The adverse reaction that I'm more concerned

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Speaker 3: about is I think that an adverse, unhealthy reaction is actually,

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Speaker 3: check this out. It's hilarious. Let me show it to everybody.

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Speaker 3: If my child was one of those children, I would

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Speaker 3: be far more concerned because what that demonstrates is an

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Speaker 3: incredible lack of empathy and a terrible, devastating lack of humanity.

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Speaker 3: And if my child is that child, well, I think

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Speaker 3: that I think that that's where we start to get

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Speaker 3: into trouble. Now, if your child is sensitive and has

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Speaker 3: seen it and is upset, the best thing to do

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Speaker 3: is sit down with them and gently be curious and

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Speaker 3: ask how you can help. You really just need to

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Speaker 3: be a support. Talk to me about that person and

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Speaker 3: how their life must have been, and talked to me

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Speaker 3: about how you want to make sure that they feel safe.

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Speaker 3: If your child is suffering from depression, If your child

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Speaker 3: has suffered from suicidal ideation, get in touch with counselor

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Speaker 3: or the psychologist, or the person at school or their

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Speaker 3: support person, whoever it is that you rely on, and

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Speaker 3: make sure that they get the support that they need.

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Speaker 3: But back to the adverse reaction, the one that I'm

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Speaker 3: most concerned about. If that's your child, I think the

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Speaker 3: most useful thing that you can do is again said

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Speaker 3: you want to be furious, To get curious. Ask them

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Speaker 3: why they thought it was hilarious, Ask them why they

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Speaker 3: chose to show it to people, Ask them how they

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Speaker 3: feel that others might have felt. And then again talk

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Speaker 3: about the human behind the video, behind the fatality, behind

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Speaker 3: the death by suicide, and see if we can humanize

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Speaker 3: our children just that little bit, because the last thing

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Speaker 3: we need is hardened, desensitized, dehumanizing children running around thinking

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Speaker 3: that this is funny.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just finally, justin Coilson, you mentioned that this is

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Speaker 2: not the first video of its time, it will not

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Speaker 2: be its last, but it is definitely a growing problem

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Speaker 2: with the connectivity around the world and all of these

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Speaker 2: social media giants make it really easy to share these

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Speaker 2: sorts of things fast and around the world very very quickly.

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Speaker 2: Do you worry that kids these days and our children

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Speaker 2: are far more exposed to all of this stuff than

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Speaker 2: we ever were.

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Speaker 3: I worry terribly about it. I mean, if you're fragile,

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Speaker 3: or if your child is fragile, this is catastrophic. And

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Speaker 3: I'm not using hyperbole. It is actually catastrophic, and it's

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Speaker 3: terrible for the poor people that were involved in this.

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Speaker 3: But as this continues to happen, we are seeing research

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Speaker 3: that shows that our children's resilience is taking a hit,

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Speaker 3: that our children's well being is lower than it should be,

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Speaker 3: that our children are more prone to post traumatic stress

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Speaker 3: and to depression and to anxiety. And so as parents,

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Speaker 3: I mean, really we need to call upon political leaders,

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Speaker 3: and we need to call upon the leaders of tech

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Speaker 3: startups and Silicon Valley and the technology industry generally to

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Speaker 3: do better. But since they're not doing better, the responsibility

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Speaker 3: fault on us as parents to guide and help our

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Speaker 3: children and support them to make the decisions that are

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Speaker 3: going to be in their best interest.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. A delicate conversation, but such a really really important

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Speaker 2: one to have. Justin Coilson. Always great to get your

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Speaker 2: advice Thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: It's been a great conversation. Thanks for chatting.

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Speaker 1: That was my interview yesterday with ABC Statewide Drive in

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Speaker 1: New South Wales talking about the TikTok suicide that has

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Speaker 1: been streamed on all sorts of social media channels and

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Speaker 1: popped up all over the place for our children to see.

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Speaker 1: I hope that that's helpful. Just a reminder if you

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Speaker 1: or your children are triggered or sensitive to the material

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Speaker 1: that we've shared, we encourage you to get help from

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Speaker 1: a psychologist from your GP, or call Lifeline or get

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Speaker 1: in touch with Beyond Blue. All of those and other

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Speaker 1: resources are available online and can help you to deal

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Speaker 1: with these challenging circumstances. If you would like more information

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Speaker 1: about how we help, visit Happyfamilies dot com dot au

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Speaker 1: or check out my Facebook page doctor Justin Colson's Happy

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Speaker 1: Families