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Speaker 1: My Heart podcasts, hear more Gold one on one point

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Speaker 1: seven podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Playlists and listen live on the free iHeart app.

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Speaker 1: Jersey and Amanda jam Nation. Well, we saw some confronting

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Speaker 1: scenes this week after tens of thousands of people took

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Speaker 1: to the streets in almost every capital city for the

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Speaker 1: March for Australia, calling for an end to mass immigration.

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Speaker 1: Independent Senator David Pocock says growing frustration stems from a

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Speaker 1: lack of clarity from the government, with no one really

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Speaker 1: offering a plan on how to deal with what we

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Speaker 1: perceived to be rising immigration. David Pocock, Hello, warning, goes

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Speaker 1: to Amada Workshire. I'm saying rising immigration. How is immigration

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Speaker 1: on the rise or is the perception of it that.

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Speaker 3: If you look at the numbers after the catch up

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Speaker 3: after COVID, it really is about perception. And you know,

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Speaker 3: what we saw on the weekend was just so tragic

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Speaker 3: and deeply concerning to see neo Nazis marching in our

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Speaker 3: streets and to have sort of racism dressed up as

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Speaker 3: concern about immigration. I think we have to absolutely pull

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Speaker 3: that out and at the same time we have to

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Speaker 3: be able to have hard conversations I've been trying to

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Speaker 3: get the Senate and the Parliament to actually have a

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Speaker 3: discussion about immigration and population and talk about how big

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Speaker 3: do we want Australia to be, how do we balance

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Speaker 3: the skills that we need with ensuring that we have

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Speaker 3: enough housing and infrastructure, how do we reduce impacts on

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Speaker 3: the environment as cities grow, Like these are conversations that

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Speaker 3: aren't happening, and we don't actually have an overall plan.

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Speaker 3: And my concern is that when you don't have a plan,

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Speaker 3: it's very easy for people to scapegoat migrants who clearly

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Speaker 3: you aren't pausing our housing woes. That is far deeper.

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Speaker 2: Than that, And there's Dick Smith has been saying for

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Speaker 2: a long time, Uh, the over population, we can't support that.

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Speaker 2: But then on the other hand, you hear people say

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Speaker 2: populate or perish? Which ones is it supposed to be?

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Speaker 3: Well exactly? And I think these are the kind of

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Speaker 3: conversations that leaders should be having, actually hearing those views,

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Speaker 3: making the case to the Australian people. This is just

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Speaker 3: how valuable immigration has been. You know, As as a

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Speaker 3: migrant myself, I've loved the opportunity here. I feel like

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Speaker 3: I've contributed a lot, But clearly the marches on the

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Speaker 3: weekend weren't targeted at white migrants like me. There was

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Speaker 3: there were it was there were so many racist overtones

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Speaker 3: to it, and I think we have to we have

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Speaker 3: to call that out and at the same time say okay,

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Speaker 3: well let's let's talk about these things. Yes, there are

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Speaker 3: impacts on the environment. The State of the Environment report,

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Speaker 3: the government's own report has said that rising populations, growing

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Speaker 3: cities are having a huge impact on the environment. You

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Speaker 3: can't get away from that fact. So let's take that

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Speaker 3: into account and actually have this conversation and then have

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Speaker 3: a plan. So when people raise this, you can say, well, actually,

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Speaker 3: we've been through all of this and here is our plan.

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Speaker 1: You've also said that it's a false narrative that immigration

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Speaker 1: is causing our housing crisis. There are things that government

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Speaker 1: can do about the housing crisis and they're not about immigration.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in a we've got a country where the major

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Speaker 3: parties seem it's they're allergic to talking about some of

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Speaker 3: the root causes of a housing system where we treat

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Speaker 3: it as an investment vehicle rather than as more of

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Speaker 3: a human rights something. We want to be accessible and

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Speaker 3: affordable and You just have to go down to any

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Speaker 3: auction on the weekend anywhere in Australia and see first

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Speaker 3: home buyers being outbid by property investors. Because those property

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Speaker 3: investors can negatively gear, they get a chunky capital gains

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Speaker 3: tax discount if they hold it for more than twelve months.

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Speaker 3: And we've tipped the scales in favor of investor, isn't

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Speaker 3: And I think it's time to change that, And the

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Speaker 3: vast majority of people I speak to want to see

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Speaker 3: sensible changes, like capping your ability to negatively gear. Investment

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Speaker 3: property is just down to one. You know, seventy per

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Speaker 3: cent of Australians only have one investment property. But we

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Speaker 3: have some small percentage of Australians who own a huge

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Speaker 3: chunk of our real estate and are doing very well.

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Speaker 1: For me, I read a book called Doppelganger, which was

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Speaker 1: written in light of the COVID crisis and the aftermath.

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Speaker 1: And this is where this journalist, Naomi Wolf is her name,

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Speaker 1: said that where Naomi kleins sorry, and she spoke about

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Speaker 1: how she gets confused with Naomi Wolf and that's what

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Speaker 1: started the Doppelganger thing. But where America split as to

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Speaker 1: vax anti vax government, anti government, it's split down. It's

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Speaker 1: split because no one tackled what were real concerns in

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Speaker 1: the middle and that's where that we have that vacuum,

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Speaker 1: that's where these fringe groups arise. And I think that

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Speaker 1: what you're saying is that's what we'll we're in danger

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Speaker 1: of seeing here if we don't tackle the real issues

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Speaker 1: at the base of these fears.

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Speaker 3: I think you're spot on there, And I mean, I've

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Speaker 3: got a lot of time for Naomi clients work and analysis,

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Speaker 3: and I think if you look at the US, some

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Speaker 3: very genuine concerns of Middle America, of even sort of

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Speaker 3: people who are struggling the battlers in America weren't taken

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Speaker 3: into account. And I'm concerned that here in Australia we

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Speaker 3: can't think that we're immune to that. We have to

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Speaker 3: be able to have these hard conversations. And you know,

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Speaker 3: over the last few days talking about this my office,

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Speaker 3: we've had angry calls from Nazis and racists, and we've

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Speaker 3: also had angry calls from people who say, to even

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Speaker 3: talk about immigration means that I'm a racist. And so

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Speaker 3: I think we need more people willing to actually say,

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Speaker 3: let's have a sensible conversation here. My experience so far

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Speaker 3: in the Parliament has been that people aren't up for that,

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Speaker 3: but it's so crucial if we're actually going to avoid

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Speaker 3: some of the what we've seen in the US.

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Speaker 2: Well, David, thank you again for joining us. Look after yourself, mate,

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Speaker 2: have a good time in Canberra.

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Speaker 3: Thanks very much. It's good to David Pocock