1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcottin woman from Gadigl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily Odds. It's Monday, 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 2: the twelfth of December. I'm Zara, I'm Sam. Progress to 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 2: close the gender pay gap has stalled. That's according to 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 2: the latest annual data released today by the Workplace Gender 11 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 2: Equality Agency. The gap is twenty two point eight percent 12 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 2: according to new figures, the same as last year, and 13 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 2: it means on average, women earned twenty six thousand, five 14 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 2: hundred and ninety six dollars less than men in twenty 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 2: twenty one to twenty twenty two. So in today's deep Dive, 16 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 2: I'm going to speak to Mary Wooldridge, she's the director 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 2: of the Workplace Gender Equality Agency, and we're going to 18 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 2: chat about what this gap is, how to fix it 19 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 2: and what you need to know. But first Sam, what's 20 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 2: making headlines. 21 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 3: Leading the news this morning. Russia has launched two Iranian 22 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 3: made drones on power facilities in the Ukrainian port city 23 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 3: of Odessa, knocking out all non critical infrastructure and leaving 24 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 3: one point four million people cut off from electricity. Shortly 25 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 3: after the strike, Ukrainian forces launched an offensive on Russian 26 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 3: military infrastructure in the southern Russian held city of Militipol. 27 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 2: Australian crypto broker Digital Surge, which let people invest in 28 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 2: bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies as part of a self managed 29 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 2: super fund, has collapsed and entered voluntary administration. About thirty 30 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: thousand AZ's are thought to have accounts they now can't access, 31 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 2: with reports some individuals effacing losses of more than half 32 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 2: a million dollars. 33 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 3: Zara. It was another massive weekend of world football. Only 34 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 3: four teams Croatia, Argentina, Morocco and France remain in the 35 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 3: World Cup after the four quarter finals were held over 36 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 3: the weekend. Morocco are now the first African team in 37 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 3: World Cup history to make it this far into the 38 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 3: tournament and we can look forward to both semifinals on 39 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 3: Wednesday and Thursday morning our time. 40 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: And the good news the French government has announced it 41 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 2: will make condoms free at pharmacies for eighteen to twenty 42 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 2: five year old. French President Emmanuel Macron called it a 43 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 2: small revolution for contraception. For every one dollar that a 44 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: male employee makes, a female employee, on average earns about 45 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: seventy seven cents. That's the latest stat from the Workplace 46 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: Gender Equality Agency. To understand what this means, I'm joined 47 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: by the director of the WGEA Mary Wooldridge. Hi. Mary, 48 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us today. 49 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 4: It's great to be with you. Sarah, thanks for the invitation. 50 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: So I want to start at the very beginning and 51 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: I'd love you to just explain what is the gender 52 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: pay gap. 53 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 4: First of all, let me tell you what it's not. 54 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 4: Equal pay, which is where people are and need to 55 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 4: be paid the same for the same type of work, 56 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 4: is actually the law in Australia. It has been for 57 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 4: fifty years. Equal pay is not the gender pay gap. 58 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 4: The gender pay gap adds up all of women's salaries 59 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 4: and all of men's salaries and looks at the difference 60 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 4: between the two, and that could be at a company level, 61 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,119 Speaker 4: or an industry level, or a nation level. And what 62 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 4: the data we've released today shows that that gender pay 63 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 4: gap is twenty two point eight percent. 64 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: Okay, so are things improving, are they getting any better 65 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 2: or are they getting worse? 66 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 4: Well, they have been improving over the last ten years, 67 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 4: but for the first time the gender pay gap has stalled. 68 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 4: So it was twenty two point eight percent last year 69 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 4: and it's twenty two point eight percent this year. So 70 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 4: it's a real question of why it's stalled. And it's 71 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 4: a concern because of course we want to maintain momentum 72 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 4: and in fact accelerate the rate of change on gender 73 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 4: equality in workplaces. 74 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: So disappointing that it's stalled. It's just such a kick 75 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: in the garts. 76 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 4: We couldn't believe it, can you know, we've tested it 77 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 4: every which way. We're like, okay, it's the same. 78 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 2: Still wow, And are there any reasons that you've come 79 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 2: across as to why that would have stalled. 80 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 4: We've obviously had a really difficult context in the last 81 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 4: couple of years in relation to COVID, and the business 82 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 4: environment is difficult. Inflation's going up, and you know, we've 83 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 4: got issues with important goods from overseas. We've got issues 84 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 4: of course of unemployment, which is a real positive being 85 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 4: so low, but it is hard for people to find workers. 86 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 4: So our guess is that the business context that's around 87 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 4: at the moment has meant that for some employers they've 88 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 4: taken their eye off the ball in relation to gender equality. 89 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 2: And how does something like this get reported? Can you 90 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 2: talk me through a bit of that data collection process? 91 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 4: Sure? So that's what we're at the workplace gender The 92 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 4: agency do so every year every employer with one hundred 93 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 4: or more employees, so that's medium and large businesses are 94 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 4: required to report to us on a range of statistics 95 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 4: by employees, so it's pay, it's a level manager, non manager, 96 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 4: what sort of position, gender, obviously, age, location, that sort 97 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 4: of data as well as their policies and practices in 98 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 4: relation to gender equality. And that means that we have 99 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 4: this incredible database made up of about four and a 100 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 4: half million employees around the country that we can look 101 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 4: at what's happening in terms of their work experience and 102 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 4: their pay, and whether they've been promoted and the gender 103 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 4: equality environment in which they work. It's actually the best 104 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 4: data set in the world. 105 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: It's an extremely large pool. You've got there. How do 106 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 2: we this country? How do we go? How do we 107 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 2: fare compared to other countries in the world in terms 108 00:05:58,080 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 2: of our gender pay. 109 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 4: GAP's okay, we're not leading, but we're certainly not lagging. 110 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 4: And interestingly, while we've stalled on our gender pay gap, 111 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 4: both New Zealand and Canada actually increase their gender pay 112 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 4: gap just a little bit in the last twelve months. 113 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 4: So it is a challenge that companies are facing around 114 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 4: the world. So we do relatively well. We've got a 115 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 4: lot of information obviously with this great data set, but 116 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 4: the challenge now is to make sure we get some 117 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 4: more momentum and that we can accelerate the rate of change. 118 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 2: And what are some of those practical steps. Keen to 119 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 2: understand what the steps towards eliminating the gender pay gapp 120 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 2: as we understand it actually is. 121 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 4: Well, it has to take leadership from the top. You 122 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 4: have to have a CEO and an executive team and 123 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 4: a board who are absolutely committed to it, and it 124 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 4: needs to be a core part of the business plan 125 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 4: and the business strategy, not seen as a nice add 126 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 4: on on the side or anything like that. We actually 127 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 4: strongly advocate then that the companies do what's called a 128 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 4: pay gap analysis and so they understand what's driving those 129 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 4: gaps in pay And it could be a whole range 130 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 4: of things. It could be the environment that's created is 131 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 4: really fundamental. Do mental management understand what creating an equal 132 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 4: opportunity environment looks like? Do are women taking printal even 133 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 4: not returning because the return to work's not supported? Is 134 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 4: flexible work actually supported in a way that is supported 135 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 4: for both men and women and in a way that 136 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 4: works effectively. And the opportunities of COVID, of course is 137 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 4: we've all worked or many have been able to work flexibly. 138 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 4: What the research now shows is that if people who 139 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 4: have worked flexibly can't continue to, a third of them 140 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 4: say they're going to either quit immediately or start looking 141 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 4: for a job. So employers need to be creative on 142 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 4: making flexible work work and people be able to be 143 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 4: successful in their roles in a way that's flexible. So 144 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 4: there's a range of things that can happen. 145 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 2: Is there anything that can be done from the employee level? 146 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: Because I think it can be demoralizing to hear these 147 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: stats and not be able to do anything about it. 148 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 4: I think employees have actually a lot of influence in 149 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 4: relation to this, and especially when unemployment is so low, 150 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 4: you know where you choose if you're looking for a job, 151 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 4: or you know you can ask questions about composition of 152 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 4: the workforce. It could be about you know, pay and 153 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 4: pay gaps. It could be about even parental leaf and 154 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 4: flexible work and how that works. And people are voting 155 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 4: with their feet, you know, they're saying, if these things 156 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 4: aren't offered, then that's not a place I want to work. 157 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 4: So I think employees have a lot of power at 158 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 4: the moment, especially when unemployment is so low. The other 159 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 4: thing I'd say is on our website, which is WGEA, 160 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 4: dot gov, dot AU. We've got what's called our Data Explorer, 161 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 4: and every company that reports to us is listed on 162 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 4: there with the statistics that they report to us. Now 163 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 4: not the gender pay gap that'll be coming, but it 164 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 4: has their workforce composition, It has their parental leave policy, 165 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 4: how many weeks they offer, what type of flexible work 166 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 4: have they done? An analysis of their pay gap. All 167 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 4: of that information is on our website. So if you 168 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 4: know anyone who's listening is looking for a job, then 169 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 4: i'd really encourage them to go and have a look 170 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 4: at that data. Or if you're working with an employer 171 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 4: and you've got questions, have a look, and that those 172 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 4: facts can be the catalyst for a conversation that says, well, 173 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 4: I noticed you do that, how does that work? Or 174 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 4: why don't we do that? Or we did a pagapanalysis 175 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 4: but then did nothing about it? 176 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: Why not? 177 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 4: And you can have those conversations with your peers, with 178 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 4: your manager or with HR and that can create some 179 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 4: momentum and engagement and prioritize gender equality as part of 180 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 4: the business strategy. 181 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 2: Mary, thank you so much for chatting with us today. 182 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 4: Thanks Sarah, it's been great. 183 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us on the Daily Odds. If 184 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 2: you learned something from today's episode, don't forget to hit 185 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 2: subscribe so there's a TDA episode waiting for you every morning. 186 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: We'll be back again tomorrow, but until then, have a 187 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 2: great day.