1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: How I Work is having a little breakover Easter, so 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: I have hand picked one of my favorite episodes to 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: play for you today and I will be back with 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: new interviews from Thursday May one. When it comes to 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: your work, do you have a sense of purpose and 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: meaning that you can turn back to when things are hard? 7 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: And how about your team? How connected are they to 8 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: why their work matters? Doctor Gabriella Rosen Kellerman is an author, 9 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: a Harvard trained physician, and the chief innovation officer at 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: Better Up, and she thinks about these questions a lot. 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: Her research with Professor Martin Seligman on Thriving in Times 12 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: of uncertainty provides some really interesting insights into how we 13 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:46,959 Speaker 1: can keep thriving at work even when. 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: Things are tough. 15 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: In this episode, Gabriella shares why it is so important 16 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: that you ensure your team has a sense of meaning, 17 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: the five biggest drivers of resilience and they're probably not 18 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: what you think they are, and why prospection is one 19 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: of the most important leadership skills for the future. Welcome 20 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and 21 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, Doctor Amantha 22 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: imber with her work it better up Ensuring quick, effective 23 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: ways to come up with the most creative solutions is 24 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: an essential part of Gabriella's day to day, so I 25 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 1: wanted to find out what some of her go to 26 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: rituals and habits are when she needs to be thinking creatively. 27 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 3: So one of the strongest findings in creativity research around 28 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 3: individual differences is this personality tape. That's openness to experience. 29 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 3: So people who sort of wander around feeling wide eyed 30 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 3: about the world, and I feel very blessed that I 31 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 3: have that personality tape. My father's a great exact sample 32 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 3: of that to me. He wanders around the world noticing 33 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 3: things and asking questions, and he can have a conversation 34 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 3: with anyone and feel genuinely curious and like you really 35 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 3: learn something new. And I do feel that way a 36 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 3: lot of the time. I don't take it for granted. 37 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 3: And as I've learned more about how to help people 38 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 3: become more creative, a lot of it is how do 39 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 3: you grow more into embracing some of the practices that 40 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 3: constitute openness to experience. When I'm trying to be really 41 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 3: deliberate about this, if I'm starting on a new topic 42 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 3: in a new area I want to learn more about. 43 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 3: I try to read broadly about it, so I will 44 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,679 Speaker 3: try to get, you know, the canonical books and textbooks, 45 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 3: but then also try to reach back into my own 46 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 3: memory bank of things that might be tangentially related. They 47 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 3: may not themselves end up being useful, but they might 48 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 3: be a bridge to something else that's useful, or they 49 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 3: might just sort of awaken a part of my brain 50 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 3: that wasn't paying attention to the topic that now can 51 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 3: be engaged and connecting. And when we think about the 52 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 3: default mode network, which is this daydreaming network, it's where 53 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 3: all these rich ideas about creativity come from, somewhat non 54 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 3: consciously and spontaneously. We know that it's putting ideas together, 55 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 3: it's associating and creating these sort of moments of what 56 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 3: we call in our book integration integrative creativity. And the 57 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 3: richer we can fertilize the soil of that default network 58 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 3: with thinking broadly, with new experiences, with curiosity leading us 59 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 3: around unpredictable corners, the more surprising those associations can be, 60 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 3: and therefore the more creative. So that's some of what 61 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 3: I think I naturally do and understanding the science has 62 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 3: helped me make sense of why that's useful. 63 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: What else do you do, particularly when you've got a 64 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: really tight timeline, as is often the case with work projects, 65 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: what you need to think creatively, have the kind of 66 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: different ways of flipping that creative each on the daring 67 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: tych lung. 68 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I love to source ideas from lots of 69 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 3: different people. So I have people I'll go to in 70 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 3: my network who again might be very directly related or 71 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 3: maybe tangentially related, or maybe it's just like a very 72 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 3: close friend that I know will always take my call 73 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 3: and talk to me about something. And as we do that, 74 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 3: we're now opening up think about the network and how 75 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 3: it's exponentially growing with every person that we talk to 76 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 3: in the nodes they're able to access. So now the 77 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 3: surface area of those ideas has just grown so much 78 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 3: so quickly. Through that, one of the ideas we plant 79 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 3: for leaders in the book is can you bring into 80 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 3: a brainstorm with your team someone who's a really divergent, 81 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 3: out of the box thinker in general, just someone who 82 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 3: can push, even in a time limited way, they can 83 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 3: really push the ceiling of what's an acceptable level of divergence. 84 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 3: For the people in the room, to get them to 85 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 3: go a little more out of their comfort zone, get 86 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 3: a little bit bolder with their ideas. Those are often 87 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 3: the kinds of people I might reach out to and 88 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 3: just get them thinking about things. And look, people like puzzles. 89 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 3: We like to solve puzzle. So if you can position 90 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 3: your creative challenge as a puzzle, people want to get 91 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 3: engaged and think about it, and they might email you 92 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 3: two weeks later with a new ideas. 93 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: Gabrielle. 94 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: It's something that I often do when I'm trying to 95 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: think creatively is I will just take myself away from 96 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: my computer screen, which is generally where I'm trying to 97 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: type my ideas into, and I will just go for 98 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: a walk and it will be a technology free walk, 99 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: just to force my brain to just be expansive and 100 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: you know, not constrained to just the incoming stimulus that 101 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 1: might be On the podcast, I'm listening to what science 102 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: is there behind that approach? And if there is science, 103 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: I'm curious, is this something you do as well? 104 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and yes. So I'll start with the science 105 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 3: and then I'll tell you about how I do it. 106 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 3: So now there's three networks involved, in in creativity, the 107 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: department network which I mentioned this daydreaming network, the executive 108 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 3: control network, which is the network that's sort of I 109 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 3: tell you to remember the name of the street you 110 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 3: grew up on. That's the one that helps you do that. 111 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 3: And then we have the salience network, which is sort 112 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 3: of like when you hear a siren in the background. 113 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 3: It's the one that gets you to pay attention that 114 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 3: it draws your attention from one thing to another. So 115 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 3: we think that the way this works is something like 116 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 3: the following. You get a creative challenge at work, you 117 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 3: start working on it with the executive control network with 118 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 3: your team, put it aside, you go out and you 119 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 3: grab your lunch. Now your daydreaming network's working on it. 120 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 3: Even when you're not consciously trying to. You might have 121 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 3: a surprising association that comes up that's actually quite useful. 122 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 3: Your salience network picks it up, says, ah aha, there's 123 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 3: an important idea here. Let's pay attention. And it brings 124 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 3: it back to the executive control network. When we are 125 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 3: too digitally connected and we're checking our email and we're 126 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 3: on messengers and we're checking the news, we're staying in 127 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 3: the executive control network. We're not letting ourselves get into 128 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 3: the default mode network where that daydreaming happens. The richest 129 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 3: daydreaming happens when we're on autopilot. As an executive control network, 130 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 3: we are active, so we're not just lying and staring 131 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 3: at the ceiling, but we're not using our kind of 132 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 3: working memory. We're not paying close attention to something, so 133 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 3: you can have what you just describe, that beautiful sense 134 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 3: of daydreaming and kind of flow my whole life, I 135 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: have practiced observing a twenty four hour technology sabbath, from 136 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 3: sundown on Friday night to sundown on Saturday. We do 137 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 3: that in my family. It's I think, been really helpful 138 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:38,119 Speaker 3: in creating a less dependency on devices. But for sure, 139 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 3: the richness of the thinking and the ideas that happen 140 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 3: when you can unplug from devices is really powerful. And 141 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 3: you know, it's one of the many ways in which 142 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,679 Speaker 3: these devices are changing the ways we function as human 143 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 3: beings in a way that is not how we evolved, 144 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 3: and it's in some ways depriving us of some of 145 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 3: these really rich, meaningful, beautiful experiences that just got interrupted 146 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 3: by the constant busyness of the divisis. 147 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: Trying a digital sabbath is something I've experimented with, and 148 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: I don't do it for a twenty four hour period, 149 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: but on the times where I've done it for several hours, 150 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: it's quite amazing just how your brain opens up in 151 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: ways that just don't seem possible when you're connected. 152 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: Particularly to your phone. You know, so much of the day. 153 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: Something I would love to delve into is around purpose 154 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: and meaning and mattering. And I found this such an 155 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: interesting part of tomorrow Mind because I feel like most 156 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: companies talk a lot about purpose these days. But then 157 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: I loved the things that you said around meaning and mattering. 158 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: So to start, can you just share what those three 159 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: concepts are, and then we might delve deeper into them. 160 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 3: So meaning is what my coatho Marty Salomon calls a 161 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 3: flabby concept. 162 00:08:59,080 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 2: What do you mean? 163 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 3: There's a lot of different meanings to the word meaning. 164 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 3: The psychologist Michael Steger has this definition that there's three 165 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 3: different components to meaning. There's purpose, there's coherence, and there's significance. 166 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 3: So significance is that my life has meaning. There's some 167 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 3: significance to me being here. Coherence is this idea that 168 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 3: there's a greater integrity of my actions with something larger 169 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 3: that it all somehow fits together. And purpose is that 170 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 3: there's something bigger than I'm kind of working toward and 171 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 3: pushing for. Mattering is what we think of as like 172 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 3: a very bare minimum level of significance, whereby I feel 173 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 3: that the labor I'm putting out there in the world 174 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 3: is for a purpose. It's seen and it's not fornt 175 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 3: and at a clinical psychological level. And people lose a 176 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 3: sense of mattering, they can't even get out of bed 177 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 3: to start the day, right, So the extreme end of 178 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 3: not mattering is depression in the workplace. Some of our professions, 179 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 3: some of our labors are meaningful in a colloquial sense 180 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 3: of they might be attached to, let's say, as a 181 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 3: healthcare provider saving a person's life, and some of us 182 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 3: are doing labors that feel much more removed from immediate 183 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,439 Speaker 3: meaningful impact for other human beings, for sense of integrity, 184 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 3: for service to the planet. As managers, whatever we're asking 185 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 3: people to do, we need them to be able to 186 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 3: feel that their labors have registered to us, that they matter, 187 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 3: that we see them doing that thing that is the 188 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 3: bare minimum of a person continuing to be motivated, to 189 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 3: keep putting in the effort day after day. And in 190 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 3: this day and age when we are as managers are 191 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 3: very often asking people, Hey, that thing that you work 192 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 3: so hard on for six months, remember that, stop doing 193 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 3: that thing and start doing this totally different thing because 194 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 3: the industry change, the world changed, what the market change, 195 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 3: whatever it was. That's a crisis of mattering. That's a 196 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 3: crisis where the employee is asked themselves, why did I 197 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 3: just do that for six months? And why is it 198 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 3: going to matter for me to do this next thing? 199 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 3: So that's where we define the sort of bare minimum 200 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 3: of what a manager needs to do to help people 201 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 3: stay motivated, and really what we owe people if we're 202 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 3: asking them to work on something, we owe it to 203 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 3: them to witness that work and to have it be 204 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 3: seen and to have them feel that that was not 205 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 3: all for not How. 206 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: Do you approach that as a later in terms of 207 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: remembering that, Because there's so much to remember and to 208 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: do to be a great leader these days, I feel 209 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: like their responsibilities are greater than ever. It seems very basic, 210 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: but I can imagine that a lot of ladies don't 211 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: do it. 212 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 2: How do you think about it in your role. 213 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, by the way, I think about it all the 214 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 3: time and every time I share this insight and this 215 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 3: idea of as managers, when we ask people to pivot, 216 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 3: I think about at that exact moment, where am I 217 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 3: asking my team to pivot and where do I need 218 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 3: to remind to go back and do this. So I 219 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 3: do try to pay attention to it most at these 220 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 3: pivot moments. I try to pay attention to it. When 221 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 3: we are reading out on metrics and performance. You know 222 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 3: that's a moment where your team might miss a metric, 223 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 3: but it might be a for a reason that was 224 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 3: out of their control or despite the fact that there 225 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 3: was a lot of effort that was put in, And 226 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 3: so how do you witness the effort? How do you 227 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 3: witness the intent even while helping the team grow and 228 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 3: evolve to the next chapter. So I try to narrate 229 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 3: the utility of the effort as much as I can 230 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 3: when I know that we're shifting away from or trying 231 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 3: to learn something about where it could be better, because 232 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 3: I know that's when it's the threat happens. And then 233 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 3: in general, when we have good hygiene and good practices 234 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 3: around recognition, which is something I think, you know, all 235 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 3: of us can get better at. But recognition is an antidote, 236 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 3: and it's almost a vaccine for a crisis of mattering. 237 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 3: If people feel your someone who's recognizing them and who's 238 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 3: seeing what they're doing, then they'll be more trusting about 239 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 3: leaving something behind and going to something. 240 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: Now, we'd love to talk about resilience because when I 241 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: was reading Tomorrow Mind, I thought, gosh, Gabriella must be 242 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 1: the most resilient person with everything she knows about it. 243 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: And I was really fascinated by the model that is 244 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: in the book around the five biggest drivers to resilience, 245 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: because I think that they're a little bit surprising. They're 246 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: different to I think what pop psychology puts out there, 247 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: and I'd love to go into some of them. And 248 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: I think, you know, for listeners that thinking, what are 249 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: these five things? So there's emotional regulation, which I would 250 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: love to start on. There's optimism, there's cognitive agility, self compassion, 251 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: and self efficacy. And I am curious because all of 252 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: those variables if you like things that we can shift 253 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: in ourselves as humans, which is why I love it 254 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:59,119 Speaker 1: because it suggests that anyone can be significantly more resilient 255 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: by just practicing the right things, if you like, within 256 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: a relatively short space of time. So emotional regulation, I 257 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: feel like, even as an adult, this is something that 258 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: I struggle is particularly in times of intense stress at work, 259 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: and I would love to know what do you do, 260 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: What have you found works for yourself in terms of 261 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: emotional regulation. 262 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 3: I think for myself and for all of us, this 263 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 3: is an ongoing area of development that very seldom does 264 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 3: a human being feel they've mastered emotional regulation. And I 265 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 3: would say most of the time they feel that they're 266 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 3: not correct. So if you feel you have work to 267 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 3: do here, you are not alone. And it is really 268 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 3: a lifelong journey, and I think it's one of the 269 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 3: things that constitutes wisdom, and you know, something that we 270 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 3: gain their experience in learning and seeing ups and downs 271 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 3: and knowing that it's going to ultimately be okay. I 272 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 3: will tell you one of the more important learnings for 273 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 3: me about resilience and emotional regulation in the last five 274 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 3: years or so, when a number of very significant things 275 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 3: have happened in my life personally, is remembering knowing that 276 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 3: the people who are most resilient it's still really hard 277 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 3: when those things happen. Initially, that resilience doesn't mean it 278 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 3: doesn't feel incredibly painful and challenging, and you may cry, 279 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 3: and you may scream, and you may be furious, and 280 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 3: all of those emotions. They're big and they're negative, and 281 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 3: people who are resilient still have them, especially when things 282 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 3: are really hard. Where the growth comes from, and the 283 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 3: extreme side of resilience is this idea of post traumatic 284 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 3: growth or anti fragility, that we can actually grow stronger 285 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 3: through those experiences is how we metabolize it, how we 286 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 3: make meaning from it, and how we come back more 287 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 3: centered and grounded as a result of that. And it 288 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 3: doesn't mean that it doesn't still hurt in the moment. 289 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 3: So that's one thing that I use to comfort myself 290 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 3: around that and to give myself grace space to have 291 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 3: those emotions. I also do a lot for myself around time. 292 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 3: So the moment the news happens is incredibly painful, that 293 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 3: the hour, two hour, day afterward, But if we can 294 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 3: intellectually remind ourselves that even another day later, even another 295 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 3: three hours later, it's going to get better, it's a 296 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 3: source of reassurance and optimism, and it helps keep me 297 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 3: from kind of spinning out. There's the emotion and then 298 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 3: there's this spinning out about emotion, and so these strategies 299 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 3: are what helped me stay grounded in the emotion itself 300 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 3: rather than exacerbating it with my emotions about the emotion. 301 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 2: Something you write about, I think in. 302 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: The book or possibly on a blog on Better app 303 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: is the feelings wheel where and I find this so helpful. 304 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: I find this particularly helpful for my ten year old 305 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: daughter as well, where just the act of actually naming 306 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: what feeling I am experiencing actually helps to kind of 307 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: tull that experience, which is quite helpful when you're experiencing 308 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: an intense negative emotion. Is that something that you have 309 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: used yourself? 310 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 2: I do. 311 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 3: I particularly use it with negative emotion, you know, And 312 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 3: I'm trying to disentangle hurt from anger from fear. And 313 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 3: you know, the reason we think this works so well 314 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 3: is that that disentangling it's an intellectual exercise. So it 315 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 3: takes us out of the limbic system and kind of 316 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 3: into the forebrain. It distances us, as you said, dulls 317 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 3: a little bit from the emotion. And I do find 318 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 3: it effective. And I also again like this you know, painfully, 319 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 3: hopelessly curious person. I just start to get really curious 320 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 3: about that, and why did I feel that emotion and 321 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 3: not that emotion? And why do I tend to feel 322 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 3: that type of emotion and not that emotion when another 323 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 3: person might feel differently. So I try to use it 324 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 3: as a tool for curiosity and shifting into a slightly 325 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 3: more intellectual mindset. 326 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: And what I'll do I'll put a link to the 327 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: feelings will in the show notes. It's quite an amazing, 328 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: quite beautiful looking wheel that really at leasts I don't know, 329 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: it must be like seventy or eighty emotional labels, and 330 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: it helps when you're feeling a bit confused about exactly 331 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: what you're feeling to help identify that. So I'll link 332 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: to that in the show notes. Now, something that did 333 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 1: surprise me that, but I guess when I thought about it, 334 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: of course it makes sense. Is the impact of optimism 335 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: on feeling resilient. I would love to know how do 336 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: you foster optimism in yourself? 337 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, the research on it is so profound. It is 338 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 3: something for those who are less familiar that people who 339 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 3: are more optimistic live longer, people are more optimistic recover 340 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 3: from cancer and cardiac disease more efficiently and effectively in 341 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 3: our lower risk for cardiac disease. That it could be 342 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 3: such a powerful signal of physical health made it even 343 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 3: intellectually of interest to me. So that was how I 344 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 3: first got to the conviction that I wanted to work 345 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 3: on optimism, and then as I took it forward to 346 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 3: bring the practice into my own life, I looked for 347 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 3: windows where I had an optimistic thought that I then 348 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 3: shut down, and I tried to notice when I was 349 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 3: doing that and why. For me, what I discovered is 350 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 3: it's not that I don't have the optimism. I'm just 351 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 3: overwhelming the optimism with paranoia and negativity that was not 352 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 3: serving me well, at least in certain key situations. 353 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 2: We will be back. 354 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: With Gabriella soon. When we written, we'll be discussing what 355 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: cognitive agilities and how you can develop it, as well 356 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: as how to get better at prospection, which Gabriella believes 357 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: is one of the most important leadership skills for the future. 358 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: Looking for more tips to improve the way you work 359 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: can live. I write a short weekly newsletter that contains 360 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 1: tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally you can 361 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha 362 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: dot com. I'd love to know about cognitive agility, which 363 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: again I read that and I thought, really can you 364 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: change that? So tell me about cognitive agility and what 365 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: that means and what are. 366 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 2: Some strategies you've used to improve that in yourself. 367 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 3: So we talk about cognitive agility as the ability to 368 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 3: go back and forth between the forest level view and 369 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 3: the trees level of view. The forest level view is 370 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 3: where we're scoping out opportunity and we're attuned to signals 371 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 3: in the environment that are helping us figure. 372 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 2: Out what to do. 373 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 3: And then the trees level of view as we've decided 374 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 3: what to do. Now we're executing in that plan and 375 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 3: we're very heads down and focused, and we need to 376 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 3: be able to do both of those things. But cognitive 377 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 3: agility is about switching channels back and forth between the two. 378 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 3: That is what we find to be this incredible differentiator 379 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 3: in terms of resilience, because when we're in a tight spot, 380 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 3: we need to be able to have focused effort to 381 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 3: get out of that spot. But we can't get stuck 382 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 3: in one approach, especially if it's not working or if 383 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 3: the context around us is changing. There's a lot of 384 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 3: interesting military research on this because you can imagine in 385 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 3: modern warfare you have to be attuned to the signals 386 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 3: around you have to change strategy is often, but you 387 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 3: also have to be able to just grit and push 388 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 3: and push and push in the trees level view of 389 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 3: a given effort. So that's what that means and how 390 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 3: it's connected to resilience. So I think that I am 391 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 3: someone who if there are people who have a tendency 392 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 3: to get stuck in the forest view and then their 393 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 3: people get to have a tendency get stuck in the 394 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,239 Speaker 3: tree's view, I think, if anything, I'm someone who has 395 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 3: a tendency to get stuck in the trees view. So 396 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,959 Speaker 3: I come to conviction about here's how we should do something, 397 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 3: and then you know, I want to see it through. 398 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 3: And one of the skills that I work on and 399 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 3: that I help others work on as well, is when 400 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 3: do you know you need to check yourself and come 401 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 3: back up for air to look around. I do that, 402 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 3: you know, with my teams, at least on a quarterly basis. 403 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 3: But I think the other thing that really just naturally 404 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 3: is a useful force function for me, given that tendency 405 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 3: is a lot of the work I do is very 406 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 3: cross functional, and it's more common than not that my 407 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 3: cross functional peers will have ecosystem signals that they want 408 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 3: me to pay attention to that might mean we need 409 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 3: to change tack. And so as long as I'm keeping 410 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 3: in close conversation with those peers who have their ears out, 411 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 3: their sort of scouts in the environment for things I'm 412 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 3: not seeing, I find it's a really helpful checkpoint for 413 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 3: me to make sure I'm coming up to scan the forest, 414 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 3: if nothing else, for the purpose of those conversations where 415 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 3: we're kind of realigning our strategy. 416 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: And so you mentioned that you'll meet with your team quarterly, 417 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: and I guess it's distinct from doing an annual planning process. 418 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: Does that mean that you're potentially making quite big changes 419 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: every quarter as opposed to perhaps every year. 420 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 421 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 3: Absolutely, new pieces come in, and we actually review our 422 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 3: metrics monthly in a semi formal way, but they're sort 423 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 3: of like a halfway through the court, let's see how 424 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 3: we're doing against these top line metrics. And then in 425 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 3: addition to that, there's again these signals that come in, 426 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 3: whether it's a major change in the market, whether it's 427 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 3: a new acquisition coming in that we need to absorb 428 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 3: and figure out where to work that into the efforts 429 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 3: and the resource allocation. So those things are always it 430 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 3: always creates sort of fair game to reevaluate everything, and 431 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 3: I say to my team maybe more often than I should. 432 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 3: I'm still not sure the right frequency to voice this 433 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 3: of like, good job, we got our road map set. 434 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 3: Remember this is going to change, you know, because I'm 435 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 3: trying to just say, like, we did a great thing, 436 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 3: we did the work we're supposed to do, and be 437 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,959 Speaker 3: ready for this to change again. I'm actually trying to 438 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 3: get ahead of that mattering crisis that we talked about 439 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 3: and just to prepare that this is all. The change 440 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 3: is a huge part of the work and the job 441 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 3: to be done. 442 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: I find that so interesting because as a LADA, people 443 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,959 Speaker 1: are looking to you for a clear direction and then 444 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: if that changes, that can impact people's trust in you. 445 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 2: As a LADA. 446 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: So how do you create that balance? 447 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 3: Actually have a whole talk on this topic because I 448 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 3: feel like prospection, which is why one of the topics 449 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 3: in our book, our ability to see and plan for 450 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 3: the future is an essential part of what builds people's 451 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 3: cognitive trust in leaders today. So the sort of affective 452 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 3: emotional side of trust is more about do we think 453 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 3: our leaders benevolent? Are they kind? Do they take care 454 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 3: of us? But the cognitive side is really we're judging 455 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 3: someone's competence, and in this day and age where we 456 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 3: feel so much uncertainty, we feel like we can't see 457 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 3: what's ahead, we are looking to our leaders to be 458 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 3: the person who can. And that doesn't mean we expect 459 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 3: them to be fortune tellers, but we expect them to 460 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 3: be spending a lot, a lot a lot of time 461 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 3: thinking about the future, planning for scenarios, allocating resources today 462 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 3: to set us up as best as possible against those 463 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 3: future scenarios. We don't expect them to be superhumans, but 464 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 3: we do expect them to put a lot of effort 465 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 3: into that. And where I think leaders often fall short 466 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 3: today in a way that does breach trust is with 467 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 3: the statement, well, there's no way to know. We just 468 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 3: can't know, So we'll tell you when we know what's 469 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 3: going to happen, but we just don't know. What people 470 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 3: need to hear is here's what we know, Here's what 471 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 3: we don't know. Here's the scenarios that we foresee on 472 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 3: the basis of that, here's the actions that we're taking right, detailed, 473 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 3: fleshed out plans that reflect a lot of time and 474 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 3: planning gives the reassurance even in an environment where everyone 475 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 3: accepts that a lot of those plans will go by 476 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 3: the wayside, that's still the job to be done. It's 477 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 3: part of what we need to feel comfort that our 478 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 3: leaders are taking on as the burden of leading us 479 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 3: in this sort of foggy uncertainty. 480 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: How can we build out prospection skills? Because there is 481 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 1: something that you write about in the book, and there 482 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: was one exercise that I did particularly like, But maybe 483 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: I'll ask about that in the moment. 484 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 2: I want to know what are you doing that's helping you. 485 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, So perspection happens in two phases. The first phase 486 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 3: is very fast and optimistic. We think really divergently. So 487 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 3: if I said to you, think about where you might 488 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 3: be in your career and ten years is right, it 489 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,719 Speaker 3: might be big and all kinds of grand things might 490 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 3: come to mind. And then reality sets in. Here's where 491 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 3: we sort of shut down. I find I shut down 492 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 3: my own optimism. I get too pessimistic, realistic, and then 493 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 3: over the course of much longer a period of time, 494 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 3: we now start planning. So our colleague, the psychologist Roy Baumeister, 495 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 3: calls this dream big and get real, and each of 496 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 3: us goes through those phases, whether we realize it or not. 497 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 3: We need to be good at both of those things. 498 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 3: When we study leaders who are really good at prospection, 499 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 3: they actually spend a lot of time in the get 500 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 3: real phase. In the planning phase, again, it's scenarios. It's 501 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 3: what are all the ways this could play out? How 502 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 3: are we going to allocate resources? When are we going 503 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,360 Speaker 3: to come back up to the forest level and reevaluate 504 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,959 Speaker 3: all of those things. There is such a thing as 505 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 3: planning fatigue, just like there's decision fatigue. Getting better at 506 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 3: prospection is expanding our capacity for planning. And when it 507 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 3: all goes out the wind, we do more planning and 508 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 3: then we guess what we wake up and we do 509 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 3: still more planning. And so for me, it's really pushing 510 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 3: myself to have more and more capacity for that. When 511 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 3: it's not always the fun thing, it's not always the 512 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 3: thing I want to do, it's not always something that 513 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 3: feels gratifying, but I know that it's a huge part 514 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 3: of my role, and if I'm not doing it, no 515 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 3: one else is going to take the time to do 516 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 3: that for my team. 517 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: So I want to ask about the new doors opening 518 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: exercise which he wrote about in Tomorrow Mind. And in 519 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: this particular experiment, the researchers gave people some instructions and 520 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: they were asked to do this once per week for 521 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: a month, where the instructures read After difficult experiences, many 522 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: people feel a sense of loss. It feels that certain 523 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: opportunities or doors have closed in their life. Sometimes people 524 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: find that new doors open and new opportunities present themselves, 525 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: and these new opportunities could be almost anything. The existence 526 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: of new opportunities does not mean that losses are unimportant 527 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: and less painful. Important losses can exist alongside some potentially 528 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: important new opportunities. We would like to know if you've 529 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: noticed any new doors opening in your own life in 530 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: the past six months. For the next fifteen minutes, please 531 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: write down whatever comes to mind about these new opportunities 532 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: or new doors. 533 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 2: So people did. 534 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: That once a week for a month, and it yielded 535 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: some really impressive results. I'm curious to know your thoughts 536 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: on that study, and maybe if that's an exercise that 537 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: you have used yourself or with your teams or customers. 538 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a beautiful study illustrating the ways that we 539 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 3: tell ourselves stories about what happened and why how it 540 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 3: has such a profound influence on our psychological well being, 541 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 3: our ability to recover, ability to move forward. That was 542 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 3: really a study of post traumatic growth or what I 543 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 3: called earlier anti fragility. So how can we go through 544 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 3: something that is challenging and difficult, but within days, weeks, months, 545 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 3: on the other end, we're actually more centered and more 546 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 3: grounded and taking the time to think abou about what 547 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 3: were the opportunities that were positive from my life that 548 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 3: came in the aftermath of this hard, hard thing, and 549 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 3: really reframe the way we think about going through those 550 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 3: challenges to begin with. There's also a really lovely book 551 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 3: called Redirect by Tim Wilson, a psychologist, that talks about 552 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 3: the broader project of how we can retell our own 553 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 3: life stories in service of these different outcomes. And we're 554 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 3: narrative creatures if we understand the mechanics of it. The 555 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 3: way is that stories don't naturally form, We create them, 556 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 3: whether we're intending to or not. We can then start 557 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 3: to be much more intentional about how we tell ourselves 558 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 3: the stories we do. 559 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: How do you use that in your own life? When 560 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: you can hear a story going on in your mind. 561 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 3: I try not to tell myself a story until I'm ready, 562 00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 3: So I try to actually just notice, observe, pick up signals, learn, 563 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 3: and the story I find does emerge through that process 564 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 3: organically as I'm finding the right versus the wrong next step. 565 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 3: But I think that one of the mistakes that I 566 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 3: made when I was younger, and one of the mistakes 567 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,719 Speaker 3: I'm still learning not to make is to come to 568 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 3: that story too early, and to feel pushed to come 569 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 3: to that story too early before I have discovered the 570 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 3: wisdom to be gained from a situation. 571 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: What great advice to end on, Gabriella. I have loved 572 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: this chat. I find it such a joy when I 573 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: read a book that I love, and I got to 574 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: say Tomorrow Mind is one of the best books that 575 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: I've read this year. 576 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: I just loved it. 577 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,719 Speaker 1: And so it's been such a treat to have you 578 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: on the show and to pick your brain about certain things. 579 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for your time. 580 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Thank you 581 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 3: so much for doing the work that you do and 582 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 3: helping so many people, and your very kind words. 583 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: I hope you loved this chat with Gabrielle as much 584 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: as I did. I know most of us recognize the 585 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: importance of praising those we lead, but maybe taking the 586 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: next step of using effective praise to give others a 587 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: sense of purpose and meaning could be. 588 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 2: What it takes to get things to the next level 589 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 2: for you. 590 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about Gabriella, I highly 591 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: recommend her book Tomorrow Mind. It was so so good 592 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: and we'll put a link for that in our show notes. 593 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: If you like today's show, make sure you get follow 594 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop. 595 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of 596 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: the Warrangery people, part of the Cool And Nation.