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Speaker 1: We know the government's proposed legislative changes are going to

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Speaker 1: be debated in Parliament this week in an effort to

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Speaker 1: curb the serious issues that we've been experiencing around the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory when it comes to youth crime. On the

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Speaker 1: line with me this morning to provide some further detail

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Speaker 1: about some of these changes is the Police Minister Nicole Madison.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, Good morning Katie. Minister. When are you hoping

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Speaker 1: to have this legislation passed.

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Speaker 2: Today, Katie? We'll be debating that in the Parliament today.

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Speaker 2: These are important reforms about making sure that we target

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Speaker 2: that fifteen percent that commit about fifty percent of the

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Speaker 2: offenses when it comes to youth crime. This is about

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Speaker 2: targeting the repeat offenders. But what I want to stress

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Speaker 2: you too is that we will be continuing on the

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Speaker 2: reform process when it comes to youth justice, making sure

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Speaker 2: that where we can divert kids away from a pathway

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Speaker 2: of crime, that we continue to get them to the

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Speaker 2: back on track programs, to the camps that we've got going,

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Speaker 2: because we know that helps stop them coming at all defenders.

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Speaker 1: Look, I don't think you'll get too much of an

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Speaker 1: argument from our listeners here on mix oneow four point nine.

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Speaker 1: You and I have spoken about this issue on so

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Speaker 1: many occasions. There's definitely a real push from the community

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Speaker 1: to see some change in this space. I know that.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, you know there's people protesting outside

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Speaker 1: of Parliament House yesterday with their concerns. But as you've mentioned,

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Speaker 1: there has been serious emphasis from the government in recent

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Speaker 1: weeks when talking about the legislation that it's going to

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Speaker 1: really crack down on those repeat offenders. Last week in

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Speaker 1: a statement, you said, if a young person commits a

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Speaker 1: serious breach of bail, their bail will be revoked and

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Speaker 1: they will be taken into Remand what is considered a

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Speaker 1: serious breach.

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Speaker 2: A serious breach is committing a prescribed defense or if

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Speaker 2: they're going out and they commit really a serious breach

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Speaker 2: of their curfew conditions or electronic monitoring commitments and do

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Speaker 2: things that they're not meant to be doing while they

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Speaker 2: are out on bail. So that's what it's all about,

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Speaker 2: making sure that kids when they're on bail are more

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Speaker 2: accountable for their bail conditions, because it's very clear when

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Speaker 2: you see that fifteen percent commit fifty percent of the

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Speaker 2: offenses that they repeat offenders so again this is being

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Speaker 2: really targeted here. We're making sure that we are working

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Speaker 2: with those kids that we know are committing most of

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Speaker 2: the offenses.

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Speaker 1: So does the legislation bring back a breach of bail

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Speaker 1: conditions as an actual offense for youths?

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Speaker 2: So we're not doing that. I know that the COLP

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Speaker 2: want to do it, but the reason why we did

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Speaker 2: not go forward with that is because it simply didn't

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Speaker 2: work in the past. It became meaningless that just clogged

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Speaker 2: up the court systems, and what we've put in place

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Speaker 2: is actually far swifter and a far faster consequence. If

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Speaker 2: somebody does a serious breach of bail, it means that

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Speaker 2: they will be going into remand and then if they

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Speaker 2: are to go back on bail, then they are going

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Speaker 2: to have electronic monitoring or they're having to go into

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Speaker 2: bowl supported accommodation a.

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Speaker 1: Bl Isn't it a bit contradictory? I mean to say

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Speaker 1: that we're going to be cracking down on on those

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Speaker 1: that breach bail, but then it's not actually considered an offense.

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Speaker 2: Well, it just didn't work before, Katie, So there's no

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Speaker 2: point in going and doing something when it didn't work.

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Speaker 2: It just created a raft of paperwork and didn't deliver

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Speaker 2: an immediate consequence. In start contrast, what we're doing today does.

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Speaker 2: It will be delivering a very fast consequence when it

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Speaker 2: comes to romand so committing those serious breaches, but also

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Speaker 2: having more conditions around those kids just as to go

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Speaker 2: back into the community. But Katie, there will be another

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Speaker 2: element that we are going to introduce into the committee

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Speaker 2: stage today. We've taken on feedback that has come through

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Speaker 2: criminal lawyers, through some of the legal agencies that represent

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Speaker 2: some of these young people, where they have also asked

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Speaker 2: that we look at exceptional circumstances in there too to

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Speaker 2: give the court's provisions because we can't predict absolutely every

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Speaker 2: circumstance of which crime will be committed than the situations

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Speaker 2: around it. So today we will move a committee stage

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Speaker 2: amendment too that goes to also allowing the courts to

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Speaker 2: make sure that they can deem something exceptional circumstance and

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Speaker 2: if there is an exceptional circumstance, then the kid can

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Speaker 2: be released again on their original bail.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this is something that we've spoken about yesterday and

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Speaker 1: it was something that concerned quite a few of our

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Speaker 1: listeners because they were wondering really what is considered an

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Speaker 1: exceptional circumstance. I mean, I think in most cases, some

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Speaker 1: of the young people that are committing crimes, probably their

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Speaker 1: background in terms of some of the you know, some

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Speaker 1: of the situations that they may be in could be

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Speaker 1: considered exceptional.

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Speaker 2: And that will be for the courts to determine, Katie.

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Speaker 2: We believe that the courts will be well prepared and

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Speaker 2: able to determine that the intent of the legislation is

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Speaker 2: very clear about having swift, fast consequences for those who

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Speaker 2: seriously breach bail, and we completely have face that the

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Speaker 2: courts will be able to determine what an exceptional circumstance is.

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Speaker 1: But realistically, this is a bit of a caveat that says, well,

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Speaker 1: you could be let off the hook.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it is at all. I think it's

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Speaker 2: making sensible provision to know that there will be some

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Speaker 2: exceptional circumstances that you cannot foresee if you have a

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Speaker 2: look at the legislation holistically. This is addressing, like I said,

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Speaker 2: that targeted group of repeat offenders that we want to

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Speaker 2: make sure we deal with to increase community safety, and

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Speaker 2: we do have some very swift consequences.

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Speaker 1: So what would you consider an exceptional circumstance?

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Speaker 2: Well, that is for the court to determine. They'll have

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Speaker 2: a look at all the different situations and the complexity

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Speaker 2: around it.

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Speaker 1: But if you are changing the legislation, and you're the

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Speaker 1: minister responsible, you know, for bringing this to the house,

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Speaker 1: what would you consider an exceptional circumstance.

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Speaker 2: I believe that the courts are well prepared to be

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Speaker 2: able to deal with that, Katie. They can have a

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Speaker 2: look at the different situations of what happens and they

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Speaker 2: will determine what an exceptional circumstance is given what's before them.

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Speaker 1: So are we're talking though, Let's say somebody comes from

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Speaker 1: a broken home or they are being treated for fetal

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Speaker 1: alcohol disorder fas D. Would that be considered an exceptional circumstance.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is for the courts to determine. It's important

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Speaker 2: to recognize that there is a body of case law

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Speaker 2: that explains what may or may not be considered exceptional.

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Speaker 2: But this is a matter for the court to interpret, Katie,

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Speaker 2: what the exceptional circumstances will be?

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Speaker 1: All right, Minister. The ABC News was yesterday reporting that

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Speaker 1: lawyers say parts of the legislation contradict what you told

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Speaker 1: Parliament when introducing the legislation. You said the changes mean

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Speaker 1: there is a presumption against bail for most offenses, despite

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Speaker 1: the bill itself saying the presumption for bail will be removed.

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Speaker 1: So which is it has the presumption for bail been removed?

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Speaker 2: So if there is a serious breach of bail, then yes,

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Speaker 2: the presumption of bail is not there if the presumption

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Speaker 2: is against. But if it is a first defense and

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Speaker 2: it is a prescribed defense, then it is bail neutral.

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Speaker 2: That is there for the courts to determine.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So the court will still be able to grant bail.

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Speaker 1: Well if if there is a serious breach, realistically they're

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Speaker 1: still going to be able to grant bail.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but on those instances they're going to have to

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Speaker 2: go out on electronic monitoring, they're going to have to

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Speaker 2: go into bail supported accommodation, or if there is an

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Speaker 2: exceptional circumstance, there would be allowance for that to go

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Speaker 2: back on bail on the original conditions.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Minister, it does sound as though there's been quite

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Speaker 1: a step back here from what you know from the

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Speaker 1: tough talk that yourself and the Chief Minister were talking

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Speaker 1: last week.

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Speaker 2: No, I think if you have a look at the

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Speaker 2: content of what we have got here, we have got

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Speaker 2: very sensible changes that go to the root problem that

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Speaker 2: we're trying to deal with here, which is serious repeat offending.

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Speaker 2: And this is about community safety, but it's also making

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Speaker 2: sure that those use are involved in serious repeat offending

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Speaker 2: actually get more support around them sooner, because allowing them

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Speaker 2: to go on and continue to commit crime is not

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Speaker 2: a good solution.

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Speaker 1: But minister, can you understand how you know, like for

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Speaker 1: some people listening this morning, they'd be thinking, well, you

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Speaker 1: are saying that if you are serious repeat offending, that

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Speaker 1: you're not going to be granted bail, and that you

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Speaker 1: know we're cracking down on these repeat offenders. But then

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Speaker 1: you know, we are also hearing that if there is

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Speaker 1: an exceptional circumstance that you know that the courts will

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Speaker 1: still be able to grant that bail. But they also

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Speaker 1: that presumption for bail hasn't been removed. There is still

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Speaker 1: that presumption there by the sounds of.

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Speaker 2: It, No, I don't think that is the case at all.

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Speaker 2: I think you're seeing a much better efficient system that

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Speaker 2: will hold more use accountable for their offenses, particularly if

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Speaker 2: they commit their offenses on bail. So I've got a

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Speaker 2: stress here that this is some pretty serious changes that

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Speaker 2: we're putting through here, Kadian, and it will certainly make

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Speaker 2: young people more accountable for their bail.

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Speaker 1: Okay. Now, as part of these changes, prescribed defenses are

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Speaker 1: going to be expanded. During the week that was on Friday,

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Speaker 1: the opposition leader raise some concerns around this and said

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Speaker 1: the expansion of those prescribed defenses didn't include home or

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Speaker 1: business invasion or threats to kill. Why not?

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Speaker 2: So we have gone on the advice that we have

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Speaker 2: had from police about what is going to be most

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Speaker 2: helpful for them with the list and actually what they

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Speaker 2: deal with more and so on a day to day basis.

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Speaker 2: So we're including things like driving a motor vehicle causing

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Speaker 2: death or serious harm, hit and run for sure to

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Speaker 2: section one hundred and seventy four FA, unlawfully entering a building,

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Speaker 2: unlawful use of a motor vehicle. So they are some

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Speaker 2: of the ones that we're bringing on board, which is

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Speaker 2: based on the advice we've received from place.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so it is based on advice from police that

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Speaker 1: those other ones haven't been included.

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Speaker 2: So what we've expanded to is based on the advice

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Speaker 2: that we have received and I've taken that advice on

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Speaker 2: board all right now.

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Speaker 1: Leah Finochiarra also questioned why under those changes, if a

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Speaker 1: youth commits a to quote serious breach of bail, the

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Speaker 1: legislation states that they're going to be taken into the

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Speaker 1: custody of the CEO. Can you explain to us what

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Speaker 1: that means?

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Speaker 2: So basically, when we know that we're dealing with youth justice,

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Speaker 2: the CEO of the Youth Justice Department is in charge

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Speaker 2: of the youth detention facilities.

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Speaker 1: So it means that they go into the youth detention facility.

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Is that so that actually means out to don Dale? Yes,

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Speaker 1: so if there is a serious breach of bail, they

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Speaker 1: will go back.

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Speaker 2: To don Dale if they are on remand yes, okay, so.

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Speaker 1: Will there be additional support? I know that the bail

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Speaker 1: accommodation is always something that we talk quite a bit about,

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Speaker 1: and that bail accommodation making sure that if a youth

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Speaker 1: does need to go into that bail accommodation that they

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Speaker 1: really that the accommodation providers have the support that they need.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that you're going to see an increase

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Speaker 1: in the number of young people that need to go

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Speaker 1: into those types of facilities and to those providers being

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Speaker 1: well given additional support.

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Speaker 2: So we do have contracts with those providers and they

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Speaker 2: do an excellent job when you go in there, They

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Speaker 2: run more programs, they take good care of these young people,

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Speaker 2: but most importantly, they put them in a situation that

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Speaker 2: takes them away probably from the setting that they were

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Speaker 2: living in which really did attribute to their criminal activity.

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Speaker 2: So we have those contracts set up and we do

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Speaker 2: expect that we'll have more use going into those facilities.

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Speaker 1: Minister, I'm just getting a couple of messages, or quite

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Speaker 1: a few messages on the text line people who are

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Speaker 1: a bit confused as to exactly what is changing here,

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Speaker 1: you know, to the effect of is anything really changing

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Speaker 1: if there is still the option for an exceptional circle

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Speaker 1: stance to be you know, to go through the courts

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Speaker 1: and realistically get repeat offenders off.

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Speaker 2: So there are some big changes here. Let me reassure

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Speaker 2: your listeners of that this is significant reform for targeting

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Speaker 2: repeat offenders. Katie, This is swift, These are immediate consequences.

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Speaker 2: These will hold these young people who go out and

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Speaker 2: commit serious breaches of bail more accountable to their bail.

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Speaker 2: I cannot stress that enough.

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Speaker 1: Gaza in Palmerston has said exceptional circumstance. I was hungry,

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Speaker 1: so I stole their car so I could go through

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Speaker 1: the drive through.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Gaza, I think a court would be sensible to

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Speaker 2: recognize that that wasn't an exceptional circumstance.

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Speaker 1: How are you going to keep track of people who've

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Speaker 1: breached their bail if it's not an offense.

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Speaker 2: Because they have bail monitoring conditions on them and they're

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Speaker 2: expected to be compliant with their bails. So there are

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Speaker 2: rafter checks that go into keeping kids accountable to their back.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I've got a few questions other questions from listeners,

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Speaker 1: but I've actually got one here regarding the police force

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Speaker 1: and police leaving the force. Gary sent this through to

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Speaker 1: us on an email on the weekend, asking would you

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Speaker 1: be prepared to appoint an independent firm to order why

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Speaker 1: so many police officers in the Northern Territory are leaving.

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Speaker 1: He says it costs thousands of dollars to train up

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Speaker 1: these new police officers, and the Northern Territory taxpayer needs

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Speaker 1: to know why they're leaving.

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Speaker 2: I don't think we need that because I have frequent

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Speaker 2: conversations with the Commissioner and his senior management about their

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Speaker 2: exit interviews, with their conversations about what happens when people

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Speaker 2: do leave. The police force and the Police Association always

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Speaker 2: are very upfront with me too. I was very disappointed,

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Speaker 2: I have to say, yesterday Katie, to hear the member

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Speaker 2: Fan Nelson go out there and bag out the senior

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Speaker 2: management of police. I thought his comments were absolutely disgraceful

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Speaker 2: and I certainly back the management and the leadership of

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Speaker 2: the place.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think that we've lost twenty two police

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Speaker 1: in the last.

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Speaker 2: Month, Well right now. There is a highly competitive recruitment

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Speaker 2: program across Australia for different police forces. And sometimes it's

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Speaker 2: not just constables that you'll see in some of those numbers.

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Speaker 2: It will be auxiliaries, Aboriginal community police officers as well.

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Speaker 2: So it's important to recognize it's not awfully foreign officers.

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Speaker 1: But what I will say.

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Speaker 2: Is that the environment for recruitment across this nation has

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Speaker 2: never been more competitive. Because of the extra demands placed

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Speaker 2: on police through COVID nineteen, we have seen that there

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Speaker 2: have been national recruitment drives and Northern Territory police officers

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Speaker 2: are the best in the nation and so that is

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Speaker 2: why they are highly sought after.

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Speaker 1: So you don't believe that there are any officers leaving

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Speaker 1: the force at this point in time because they're unhappy

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Speaker 1: with things.

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Speaker 2: I think from time to time you will, but generally

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Speaker 2: the feedback we get it from people is that family

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Speaker 2: situation tends to be the biggestry of why there is change.

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Speaker 1: If we have got such a highly competitive environment with

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Speaker 1: the other states, are we matching.

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Speaker 2: That, then we do have really highly competitive conditions here

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Speaker 2: in the Northern Territory. But I think, make no mistake,

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Speaker 2: it's a pretty tough environment that our offices work in

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Speaker 2: big remote areas. They're flat out, they're really busy from

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Speaker 2: the moment they step out to college and get out

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Speaker 2: there on the beat. So it is an amazing job

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Speaker 2: that they do, and you hear about how rewarding it

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Speaker 2: is for those individual officers who do the job. They

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Speaker 2: love it, they're passionate about their careers, but there is

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Speaker 2: no doubt it's challenging work. And I think when you've

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Speaker 2: lived in the Northern Territory, always know that the pull

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Speaker 2: of family for a lot of people can sometimes be

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Speaker 2: too great living here. That's something that everybody deals with.

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Speaker 1: Another issue which has been on the agenda, and quite

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Speaker 1: a few listeners have made contact with us throughout the

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Speaker 1: last week. I know the ABC has been speaking about

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Speaker 1: begin today is school based constables. How many of those

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Speaker 1: are now back in the schools.

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Speaker 2: We've got some more going back out into the school

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Speaker 2: so for it's my expectation that we have as many

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Speaker 2: as possible out there on the ground in term three

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Speaker 2: will introduce some auxiliaries into the model as well, but

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Speaker 2: we are sending more school based police out onto the ground.

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Speaker 1: So how many is that.

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Speaker 2: I don't have the exact number. Last I heard we're

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Speaker 2: getting another three that we're going back out into the classroom.

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Speaker 1: So what's the total then?

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Speaker 2: I think we had. I just don't have the number

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Speaker 2: in front of me now, Katie. But we were certainly

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Speaker 2: getting some more out there. We'd had some going out

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Speaker 2: across Darwin and Palmerston and into the regions as well.

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Speaker 2: But I've certainly said to police my expectation is that

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Speaker 2: we have more out into the classroom as quickly as possible,

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Speaker 2: because that is what the community expects, and that's certainly

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Speaker 2: what I want to say.

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Speaker 1: I understand you don't have the number in front of you,

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Speaker 1: but is it more than three?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: All right, well, hopefully we can get that from your office,

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Speaker 1: maybe a little bit later this morning we'll get Actually, Katie,

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Speaker 1: now I know that you guys are incredibly busy with

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Speaker 1: Parliament resuming this morning. I just want to ask very quickly.

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Speaker 1: Last week during question time it sounded pretty bad. There

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Speaker 1: was some name calling, lots of yelling and that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. Have you guys had a bit of a

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Speaker 1: discussion as a team about raining it in.

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Speaker 2: I think we are answering the questions and I don't

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Speaker 2: see any issues there, Katie. I'll say this that the

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Speaker 2: colp certainly do not hold back on the floor of Parliament,

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Speaker 2: and I see that there is just good, rigorous debate.

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Speaker 1: All right, Good on you, Nicole Madison, Thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for your time this morning. Thank you. It is just

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Speaker 1: twenty seven minutes after nine o'clock. A lot of people

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Speaker 1: messaging through regarding these legislative changes around the bail. Now,

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Speaker 1: let's have a look at a couple of these straight away.

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Speaker 1: There's one here, Katie. Aren't most of these kids already

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Speaker 1: in exceptional circumstances. They've changed. Nothing says that text. Another

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Speaker 1: one here from Robbie. It says out of touch judges

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Speaker 1: will make this legislation a waste of time. Cheers Robbie.

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Speaker 1: Another one. If the Minister can't understand or explain the

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Speaker 1: new proposed legislation, how are we supposed to understand what

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Speaker 1: is actually changing, if anything at all? One here that

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Speaker 1: says hi kdi, please ask are the police constables back

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Speaker 1: in our schools as per COVID as per pre COVID levels.

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Speaker 1: Oh look, there are quite a number of messages coming through.

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Speaker 1: I've got one here which I did put to the minister.

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Speaker 1: How can they keep track of people who've breached their

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Speaker 1: bail if that's not an offense. There is quite a

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Speaker 1: bit of confusion raining and it's going to be interesting

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Speaker 1: today in Parliament when that legislation is debated.