WEBVTT - Joe Cinque 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:06.119 In October nineteen ninety seven, a law student in Canberra, Australia, 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:09.960 made a plan to murder her devoted boyfriend after a 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:13.960 dinner party. But it wasn't a secret. The dinner guests 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:17.759 had all heard rumors about the plan and went along 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:23.000 with morbid curiosity. But in what could be described as 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:27.520 the ultimate bystander effect, nobody warned the young man. 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:29.760 Surely they thought it was a joke. 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:36.280 Surely everybody knew but him. This is the devastating case 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:37.680 of Joe chinque. 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:41.559 Oh. I know of this one, but I didn't know 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:43.000 all even already all those. 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:46.080 Oh well, you are going to need to strap yourself in. 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:49.000 It's kind of like aws. 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:56.440 Sounded bit like Exactually fuck. 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:18.920 Hey there, everybody, welcome it to It not another crime podcast. 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:20.840 I'm Georgia, I'm Sammy Peterson. 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:21.720 I'm a journalist. 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:25.480 I am not and today if you want to skip 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:27.880 ahead and just listen to the story, do you know 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:29.280 how to do that? What do you do? 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:33.039 Ge? You look at the time stamp in the show notes. 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:35.040 God, you're good, you got that right away? 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:38.160 Thank you. Has the week been? 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:40.479 It's been okay. I got a new fridge this week, 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.800 Actually got a new fridge, and I was feeling I 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:45.760 was still a little bit sick when the new fridge 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:47.720 was coming, and I was like, this is gonna be quick. 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:49.440 It's gonna be fine. Or get the fridge in. It's 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:51.720 gonna be great. And it was a huge fridge. But 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:53.800 I was gonna fit through everything. It's gonna be great. 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:55.920 They got it through the first door, they got it 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:58.320 through the second door, and in my apartment, I have 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.880 got a slightly narrower doors. 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:03.120 I'm looking at it right now that he's actually quite 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:03.600 a narrow door. 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:05.840 It's quite narrow about that. The first and who sold 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:08.360 it to me knew more about fridges than I know 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:09.520 about anything in my whole life. 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:10.400 That's so beautiful. 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:13.280 I love that they were very excited about the free door. 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:18.919 Give him a shout out, non spawn Harvey Norman, your salespeople, they. 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:20.160 Were very good with his name. 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:20.560 Harvey. 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:23.160 Yes, Harvey Norman was his name. 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:24.280 That's amazing. 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:28.800 Yes, And yeah, I basically got it through both doors. 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:33.160 Then the next door actual apartment. Yeah, it just was 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:35.520 not going to fit through unless I took the door off. 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:38.480 So they were like, oh we can't, we just can't 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:40.120 do it. And I was doing that thing of going no, 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:42.720 just try, just try, just knowing that it wasn't just 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:45.239 break the doorframe, break the doorframe, and I designed a 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:46.840 thing to be because theres any damage to the fridge 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:48.200 like blah blah blah, so I had to do that. 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:50.320 Then I could just see it coming forward and that 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:53.320 it just wasn't going to fit in, you know. And 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:55.280 you know, when I well, maybe I just do this. 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:57.160 I do stuff sometimes when I'm like, I know this 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:59.080 isn't going to work, but I'd just like you to try. 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.960 You have to try, because otherwise will always think what if. 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:05.160 And one of my life mottos is I would rather think. 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.360 I would rather have a regret than think what if forever. 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.880 Yeah, well you know that. I well, actually, when I 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:15.040 moved into this place, I got dog balls way too. 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.839 Small for digs and no, no, no, no, no, you got 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:18.480 cat bowls. 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:20.520 I got cat bowles so way too small for digs, 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:22.800 and I kept them for longer than I need to 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:24.440 because my mum told me that they were too small 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:25.799 for him, and I was like, I meant to get 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:28.120 them this size, and I kept them just for ages 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:30.239 and I was just like, no, I'm right. 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:32.480 I saw them when I first came around here, and 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:34.280 I was because you'd said I've got. 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.240 Dig some new Yeah, I got very excited. 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:38.880 And I saw them here and I looked at them 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:40.440 and I was like, I think they're meant to be 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:43.080 for cats. But I kept it to myself, and then 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:45.200 you told me a few weeks later. He meant I 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.520 got new bowls because I had accidentally bought cat bolls. 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:51.280 But I refused to admit that because my mom she 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:54.560 was which has a thirty three year old man, thirty 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:56.400 four year old man is amazing. 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.920 It's pretty good. But yeah, So the door was then 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:01.640 taken off. So took the door off, but it took 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:03.720 it took a while to get the door off. I 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:05.640 was feeling really sick. And then I put the door 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:08.520 on the wall and straight away Digs ran out and 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.160 met the neighbors. He ran into their place. Then I 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:12.520 had to go into the next door neighbors and get 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:14.400 down and he was having the best time ever. And 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:15.840 so Dix is like, I don't think we need a 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:16.400 door anymore. 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.440 Why was this here in the first place you can 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:22.960 visit your neighbors. 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.599 And he was running through the apartment just so free, 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.640 just loving everything. It was so cute to watch him 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:29.839 like they were down and they were fine with it, 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:32.480 thank god. But it was very funny watching him going, 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:33.719 I don't need a door. 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:36.280 We need it. Well, my story for you this week, 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.760 what's happened this week is also about clearing the way 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:43.440 for traffic to get past if you will. Yeah, it's 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.640 my segue. Yeah, my car got towed because I parked. 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:49.640 Yeah. 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:53.400 So, as you guys know, if you listened last week 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:56.560 and the week before, I was very sick for two weeks. 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.680 The first day I was feeling alive again. I went 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.719 to the he addresser, got my hair done, was feeling myself. 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.599 Posted on Instagram. I feel alive again thanks to Reese 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:12.839 Mitchel Harrison, my hairdresser, not spawn Um. Ten minutes later, 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.560 ten minutes after that post, next post, my fucking car 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:20.640 got I went out in front of the addresser. This 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:22.800 sounds made up, I promised to you it is not. 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.080 As it opened the door of the hairdresser, I saw 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.919 the tow truck leaving in front of me, like it 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:32.680 was literally driving past me with my car on the back. 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:37.520 I hadn't realized it was a movie moment where I 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:39.640 had parked and my hair point went longer than I thought. 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:41.640 This is boring detail. Blah blah blah. My car got 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:43.640 towed because I parked in a place I shouldn't have. 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:47.520 It cost me so much to get it out of 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.080 the impound center. And I'm also going to get a 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:53.240 fine like an infringement for having parked in a clear way. 0:05:53.600 --> 0:06:00.000 And the freaking toe truck company scratched my new car. Yeah, 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.120 and they say they have they don't think they did it. 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:03.800 And they said, well, can you send any photos you 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.919 took before or during? And not only photos that have 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.240 are from the front and you can't sit scratch. So 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.640 that was the most expensive haircut of all time. Thanks 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:14.080 for noticing it. 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:18.320 But worth it because Reese something Harrison. Reese Mitchell Harrison 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.240 does the best cuts you've ever seen. He runs a 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:23.599 place called Just Cuts. No, he doesn't, and he does 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:27.159 some of the finest hairs from Just Cut. Georgia Lovely 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:35.200 Haircuts haircuts she has lovely haircuts from Reese Mitchell Jordan's Mitchell. 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:37.800 Rich Mitchell Harrison. He doesn't work at us Carrison. 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:39.520 It was Just Cuts and he does some of the 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:42.120 greatest cuts you money can bow. He works at Melbourne 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:45.080 Central No, he doesn't. Georgia parked on the tram tracks. 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:46.520 No I didn't, No, but you. 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.080 But yeah, it's so frustrating because I had that happened 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:51.400 to me once and I had just moved to Melbourne. 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:52.440 I didn't know where the car was. 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.200 Well yeah, I mean even if you have lived in Melbourne, 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:58.719 if you've ever had it toad before, you don't orries Google? 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:03.200 Where does my car? Hey? Google? Where does cargo went to? 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:04.240 Where does cargo to? 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:08.240 Anyway? So I'm angry because I was sick and I 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:10.360 spent a lot of money on well, to be fair, 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:11.920 I spent a normal amount of money on my haircut, 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:13.160 but I spent a lot of money in my car 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.680 just for it to get scratched. And I'm going to 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.440 put that I have in my Poudrey Peeves list for today, 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.239 which we forgot last week. Clearways, but I've just decided 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:25.320 to do it as a Harriet. 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:28.280 Hate Harriet hate, because you're furious, aren't you? 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:28.400 Just? 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:33.000 You're furious? Hey, everybody, we'hen getting to this episode really soon. 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.960 But if you want, you can send us an email 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:39.640 just another company dot com dot au. You can leave 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.280 us a voicemail that's called a speak Pipe. All the 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:43.440 links are below. 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.920 Lead said as an email at Sammy it just another 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:51.520 company dot com. I got the email address right though. 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.000 Follow us on Instagram and TikTok getting on another crime podcast. 0:07:56.720 --> 0:08:00.080 You must leave us the five star rating him than 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:01.480 a Slaver survive star. 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:07.480 Yes, thank you so much, everybody. Enjoy this week's episode 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:11.680 Sammy Special. Today it's a Sami Special. Enjoy the riffins. 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:15.640 No spont no if you want to spawn though emas 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:22.760 at Sammy just another company. 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:25.360 This case has affected me in more ways than I 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:28.640 could have imagined. I picked up the book by Helen Ghana, 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:33.240 Joe Chinkway's Consolation, after going to buy Helen Ghana's latest 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:37.960 book on the mushroom cook Aaron Patterson our favorite. This 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.920 story is devastating and it's honestly a case that I 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:45.000 cannot stop thinking about. I read the book quickly, I 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:47.960 listened to anything I could, and I feel like my 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.400 mind was pretty made up about how I felt about 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.040 what happened. I'd love to hear your opinion, Ge, and 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.400 I'd also love to hear what listeners think. 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:57.880 Brinita tells the story first. 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.160 Okay, okay, you know you're right you are right, Thank you. 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:01.720 I usually. 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.040 Joe was murdered. What I didn't expect to learn was 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:10.000 how many complex feelings I had about the killer and 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:11.160 the friend who helped her. 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:12.120 Oh okay. 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:14.880 In fact, it resonated with me on a personal level, 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.600 with my own brother developing drug psychosis and completely changing 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:21.160 as a brother I once loved and grew up with. 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:25.640 I cannot recommend the book highly enough. As always, I 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:29.360 commit my undying love for Helen Ghana and how she 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:33.400 can find the human in people who were often deemed monsters. 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:36.520 It's interesting to say that, because I mean just that 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:38.599 sentence itself, a lot of people would say, well, no, 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:39.560 there's no human in here. 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:39.880 Yeah. 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:42.800 Yeah, that's how beautifully she writes, and how I suppose 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:44.200 in depth she goes into her story. 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:47.120 Yes, and she looks at things a different way. Yeah. 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.560 This is a story of a man's life who was 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:53.240 taken too soon, far too soon, and a complex look 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.600 into the lives and why from what we can glean, 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:01.840 the pair did it and why no one did anything 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:02.480 to stop it. 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:04.440 My God, tell me what happened? 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:06.560 Well, do you know a lot about this case already? No? 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:09.320 I know that a girlfriend, I think it was like 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:11.760 a murder, like a suicide pack. 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:13.760 Yeah, that's right. Yeah, she backed out. 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:15.400 That's about all I remember. 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:17.760 Okay, well we'll go into it, and I really want 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.280 to hear your thoughts on it. Yeah, because it is. 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:23.040 It's really fascinating and there's a lot. There's a lot 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.600 in here. Joe Chinkwe was a twenty six year old 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:30.360 engineer living with his girlfriend, a new Singh in their 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:31.880 terrace house in Canberra. 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:33.800 Yeah, I remember, I remember a news name. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.720 Yeah. Yeah, there's an interesting part of this, but I 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:39.880 think it's kind of glossed over when I read the 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:43.719 trans script of the Call to the Ambulance. I'd like 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:45.920 you to keep in mind what kind of house they 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:49.840 lived in. Joe was working full time and a new 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:54.280 was finishing her final year of law. Joe was killed. 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:55.360 That's ironic, I know. 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:57.800 Yeah, Well, all the people that were at the dinner 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:01.320 party were actually lawyers. Oh my god, Joe was killed 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:05.559 by a lethal injection of heroin while he was unconscious 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:09.319 from rohipnol, which she had drugged him with in his coffee. 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:10.000 Oh my god. 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:13.000 I'm going to refer to the book for a transcript 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:16.480 of the Call to the ambulance. This is what Halen 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:19.880 Ghana writes as the opening to that transcript. 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:21.800 He's even getting out. 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:24.240 His physical book, like I put a little post it note. 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:26.839 Oh my god, you're so cute, just like my father. 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:28.600 Why is there an apple on the cover. 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:31.120 We'll get into it. A bad apple to it? 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:35.200 Well you hey apple asle Okay, very big apple. 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.800 The house he died in on Sunday twenty sixth of 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.479 October nineteen ninety seven was not far from the Canberra 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:47.480 Ambulance headquarters. Oh, the paramedics would have been able to 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.360 reach him in a flash, but it took the dispatcher 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.240 almost twenty minutes to get to the right address from 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:57.079 the hysterical young woman who placed the zero zero zero call, 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:01.240 the triple zero call. Like all emergency calls, this one 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:05.520 was recorded. This is the male dispatcher. Okay, and the 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.840 phone number you're ringing from. Could I get an ambulance please? 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:14.040 I have a person potentially overdosed on heroine. Potentially overdosed. 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:18.720 Well he's not. He's vomiting everywhere, blood stuff. He's vomiting 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:22.000 blood right. Okay, what's the address? Is that a bad sign? 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.800 What's the address? Can you hang on, Please just tell me. 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.959 Is that a bad sign? That's well, it's not good 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.240 if he's vomiting blood? Oh is he going to be? Okay? 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:35.360 I don't know. I'll send an ambulance for them to 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:42.720 check him out. Fair enough. What's the address? Thirty Antil Street? 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:48.240 Is that a flat or a house? Oh? It's a flat? 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.600 What number is Antil Street? What number in Antel Street? 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:57.680 What's going to happen? What's the flat number? Oh? Shit, shit, 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.040 listen to me, says apparently medic again. Oh hang on, 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:07.000 what am I going to do? Settle down? Settle down? Okay, 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:10.360 what am I going to do? Well? If you tell 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:12.920 me the address, I'll get an ambulance out to you. 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:15.400 Will he be? Okay? Oh? 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:16.480 This is so frustrating. 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:19.160 I don't know. We'll have to get an ambulance to 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:21.720 you to assess him. What is the number of the 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:27.400 flat in Antel is is? Oh shit? What is the 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:32.320 number of the flat in Antel Street? It's seventy nine? 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:37.480 Maybe flat thirty seventy nine? Is that correct? Yeah? No, 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:43.600 hang on, flat thirty? Hang on? Where's the ambulance. The 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:47.320 ambulance is at Dixon. Now just calm down. What's your name. 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:52.160 What's your name? Oh shit, he's vomiting blood? What and 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:56.480 the dispatcher again says, what's your name? I know? Who says? 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:01.720 Is he going to die? What is your name? Tell me? 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:06.839 Tell me? Please? Cries? What is your name? Oh? Oh god, 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:13.840 Olivia says anw oh what is your name? Please? Olivia? Olivia? 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:18.200 Oh fuck? Hang on? Hang on? What's the number you're 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:23.840 ringing from? Hang on? His heart's still beating? Good right, Okay, 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.960 just settle down, for God's sake, says the dispatcher. Oh God. 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.200 To be pretty uncommon, you'd think for a dispatcher to 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:33.720 say that flat thirty seventy nine Antil Street. Okay, we've 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:38.600 got the flat thirty seventy nine, No, seventy nine Antil Street. 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:44.160 What's the flat number? It's a townhouse? What it's seventy 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:48.800 nine in Antil Street? Yeah, yeah, get here quickly. All right, 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:52.240 we've got someone there. Now. Now that was not the 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:54.840 only call that was made that night, but it's a 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.480 really interesting call because a new calls herself Olivia in 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:00.960 that call, name of time a number of times. And 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.320 as we heard before, they lived in a townhouse. 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.320 And it was her address she lived there. 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:08.800 I lived there. Yeah, yeah, which could be you know, 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:10.320 she was like, what happened? 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.000 Yeah, exactly, because the way that reads is as if 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.000 she didn't really know she was there for a dinner party. 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:16.600 She didn't really know the address she was at, so 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:18.520 she was trying to find out what it was. And 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:21.400 I mean, god, touch would. I don't know what it's 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.120 like to be in that situation where you're panicking and 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:28.600 calling an ambulance. But I mean it's very easy to 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:30.240 say from this point of view, but you would think 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.240 you could just spit out the address if you knew it. 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:33.720 You think you'd be able to Yeah, it was your 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:37.640 own home. On June eleventh, nineteen seventy one, Joe was 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:42.320 born to Nino and Maria Chinque in Newcastle, New South Wales. 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.520 He was named after his grandfather, Giuseppe or Joe for sure. 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:50.680 That a beautiful Yeah, it was a way to carry 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:55.560 on his heritage. They thought she most that's right, German heritage. 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.880 They thought he was the most beautiful baby they'd ever seen, 0:15:59.120 --> 0:15:59.320 do you. 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.760 I mean most parents say that about that. Mine did 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:05.560 not about me. What because my older sister Katie was 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:08.160 the most beautiful baby anyone's ever seen. And then I 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.080 came out and my mom was like, oh, she does 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:12.360 not look like she does look like The reason my 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.040 godmother is my godmother is because she was like, oh, 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:18.200 my god, she's beautiful. And Mom was like, no, she's not. 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.360 And I don't like it. And I'll listening to this too, actually, 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.040 and I was like, yeah, she is, and Mama, well 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:24.400 you can have. 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.920 Joe's parents immigrated to Australia from Italy four years prior. 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:31.400 I knew it in. 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.480 He said, Germany. In nineteen seventy five, Nino and Maria 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:38.600 welcomed their second boy, Anthony. With two boys, the house 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:42.320 was bustling, often described as chaotic. It's my worst night, 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.600 toys and games all over the floor like digs. I 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:50.200 was living with digs. But Nino and Maria loved everything 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.840 about it. They were happy to have their two boys. 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:56.920 They lived in a red brick house in Newcastle. Newcastle 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:00.240 is a harbor city in the Australian state of New 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:04.000 South Wales. It's located one hundred and sixty two kilometers 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.840 or one hundred and one miles from Sydney. Joe's mum 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.840 was a housewife and his father worked as a tradesman. 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:14.520 Joe saw that his dad. Joe saw what his dad 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:16.359 had done for a living, and he ended up working 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:20.199 at the same company that he and his grandfather and 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.399 his father had all worked out. Oh my god, before 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:27.040 they knew it. Joe and Anthony were young men, growing 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.160 up all too soon from Marea's liking, but they would 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:33.320 all have family dinners every single night because they all 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:38.080 stayed close by. Joe was a gifted athlete, playing tennis 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:42.680 and soccer. There were trophies littered all around the family home. 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:47.320 He also radiated confidence and energy. He was a great 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.720 student and a fantastic friend, often the one to bury 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.600 the hatchet in any quarrel and find a way to 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:55.800 move on. So two friends were kind of finding he'd 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.280 be the one to go to. He was extremely well 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.200 liked by everyone who met him. You just couldn't help 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.840 but be drawn to him. He wanted to study architecture, 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.400 but also didn't want a career that would keep him 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.639 inside all day, strapped to the desk, so instead he 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:15.000 decided to take up a career in civil engineering. Wow. 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:18.520 In nineteen ninety four, at just twenty four years old, 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:22.080 he graduated university. His parents had bought him a ticket 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:24.320 overseas as a gift for graduating. 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:26.000 Oh nice marine. 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.840 He really wanted to go traveling before starting his working life, 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.680 and at the time broke it off with his girlfriend, Rebecca, 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:35.640 who everyone kind of thought he'd end up with. 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:38.440 Oh god, that's not very nice. Like see, I want 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:38.600 to go. 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:41.520 Yeah, I know, I don't know if you said it 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.639 like that, but that's probably dead. After Joe died, Rebecca 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.520 turned up to the family home and told Maria that 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:49.840 she just wished Joe had loved her like she had 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.760 loved him. I was so heartbreaking. She bought flowers and 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:53.199 told her that. 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:54.680 Oh my god. 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:57.399 When he got back, he found a job at a 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:01.320 civil engineering company as a project manager, which was close 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:02.840 to his family in Newcastle. 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:04.840 I want to get sorry. I wanted to look at 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:07.159 what Joe looks like. I'd like to have a visual 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:09.560 of him. Yeah, of course, I actually know what a 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.040 new thing looks like. But isn't that terrible? I know 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:13.960 what she looks like, and I've actually got in my 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:18.240 notes the name a new sin for an episode to do. 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.320 Oh really, not Joe's. Isn't that terrible? We always talk 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:23.920 about how you know that shouldn't be the case. Yeah. 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:28.439 Yeah. Maria, Joe's mother said in Helen Ganner's book that 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.600 Joe's father and grandfather worked at the same engineering company. 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:34.000 Like I said before, so it's a big over you know, 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:35.440 International Corporation. 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:38.400 Oh yes, yeah, I'm looking at him. H yeah. They 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.119 look very I mean, this is such a boring basic 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:44.800 thing to say. They look like a couple in the nineties. Yeah, 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.320 like in a kind of mid to late twenties, a. 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:48.119 Good looking couple. 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:51.080 Yeah, very good. Okay, Yeah, he looks quite American. 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:52.240 He does, doesn't he. 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:55.840 He's very like chiseled jaw a bit like. 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.359 Like Italian American. Doesn't mean like he's got a very 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:02.639 Italian kind of face. If he didn't have enough to do, 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:06.200 like you know, all week, he'd find he'd find himself 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.080 really restless. Maria kind of noticed this with him from 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:11.359 a young age. He would hang out with friends, go 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:13.919 to the pub, or put in extra hours at work 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.040 with his friends. He would regularly hang out at a 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.639 local pub called the Brewery. That's when he met twenty 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.120 two year old a new Thing on two only twenty 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:26.800 two at the time. Yeah. Anu was born in India 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:31.399 on September third, nineteen seventy two. Her parents relocated to 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:34.920 Newcastle when she was really young. Both of her parents 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:37.479 were doctors and push their children to do well in 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:41.080 their studies. And you had completed her schooling and got 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:44.560 a HSC. Did I say that right? 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:44.960 Yeah? 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:51.720 But HS and HSC to go into economics and law 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:57.200 at ANU, which is the Australian National University in Canberra. 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.720 She also called the Act Act Act the. 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:05.560 Act of going to University a little bit of trivia 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:09.840 for our international listeners because I would has it. I 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.240 guess most people outside of Australia don't know this. Canberra 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:15.439 is actually our capital city, not Sydney. 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:17.520 Yeah, and that it was because the two were fighting 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:18.159 it out, won't they. 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:20.480 Melbourne and Sydney were fighting it out as we always do, 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:23.080 even two hundred years ago we were, And so they 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:25.520 just picked a They just made a city in the middle. 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:28.359 And you know what's it is a lovely place, Canberra. 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:31.360 I quite like Canberra, but there is nothing around it. 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:32.919 No, it's yeah, it's in them. 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:34.200 It's it's in the middle, just. 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:35.760 A city that they was not even in the middle. 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:37.680 It's closer to Sydney. But that's a very Melbourne person 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:38.440 being of me. 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:41.760 To say they got it close up. Yeah, So she 0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:44.520 moved down there and started her degree. So that a 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:47.000 New moved to Canberra and started her degree in the 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:51.760 early nineties, but didn't cope living away from home. She 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:55.719 called her mother a lot and would go back home frequently. 0:21:56.240 --> 0:22:00.520 And it was extremely attractive, high achieving, and very well spoken. 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:03.120 She had a focus on going to the gym and 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:07.439 was an obsessive dieter. Her parents ended up moving to 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:12.240 Sydney and lived and worked there, and You graduated in 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:14.800 economics and her plan was to go back and finish 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:15.480 her law degree. 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:15.960 Wow. 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:19.880 When Anew and Joe met at the brewery, they immediately 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:22.920 hit it off. Anew was back home for a short 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:25.840 period of time, their two friendship groups happened to know 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:30.120 each other and they got chatting. Anew had a boyfriend 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:32.480 at the time who she lived with in Canberra. 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:33.000 Wow. 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:36.840 His name was Simon Walsh. One report stated that he 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:40.480 found out about the fling and ended it. Another stated 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:43.159 that the more time Joe and a New spent together, 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:47.320 the less she could see Simon and it eventually fizzled out. 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:49.360 So I don't really know which one is true. There 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:51.920 it seemed like yeah, he found out about it big 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:54.120 blow up, or that they stayed together for a while 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:54.960 and adventually there. 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:56.960 It sounds like there was some kind of crossover with 0:22:57.119 --> 0:22:59.600 some sort of crossover meeting Joe was the reason she 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:00.520 Diamon ended. 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:00.840 Yep. 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:02.680 Yet whatever the timeline was. 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:05.120 That's right. Yeah, but a New was really heartbroken by 0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:09.760 the breakup with Simon. Senior parole Officer Naomi Buick had 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:13.000 spent hours interviewing a New and said that she had 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:17.040 terminated a pregnancy while with Simon, which had a lasting 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:18.479 and traumatic effect on her. 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:19.280 Oh sad. 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:22.400 She was particularly hurt by a claim he made calling 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:27.600 her intellectually inferior. Oh ye, which which is what she 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:31.399 said about others. So it really hit her heart, she 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:34.159 said about everybody. Yeah, it had a really big impact 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:37.240 on her. It was a huge turning point in her behavior. 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:40.960 So she's allogical, other people intellectually inferior. But if someone 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:43.640 calls her that, yeah she was crazy. 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:45.679 Yeah, okay, dish it out, but you can't take. 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:49.959 Care not me and that crowd. 0:23:50.440 --> 0:23:52.399 I didn't growl and I didn't cut that out of 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:57.080 the podcast. By late nineteen ninety five, she developed bolimia. 0:23:57.760 --> 0:24:00.600 She spiraled into a deep depression and move back in 0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:05.080 with her parents. She wanted liposunction and refused to admit 0:24:05.119 --> 0:24:08.960 that she was suffering. She had a diet of Coca cola, 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:12.600 tim tams and she would smoke. She also dabbled in drugs. 0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:17.680 So she actually I think that her dad actually went 0:24:17.720 --> 0:24:21.280 through with the liposuction, which there was no shed went 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:23.800 through with it. Oh sorry, So I actually paid for 0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:26.879 her to have liposuctions. So she was really kind of 0:24:26.920 --> 0:24:29.639 the way that she spoke to people. She kind of 0:24:29.640 --> 0:24:31.879 seemed like she could kind of get her way with 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:35.440 anything that she said, and there was nothing to her. 0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:38.360 She was the skinniest person and actually had liposunction. 0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:41.600 Oh, I just looked up. The photo is a understand that. 0:24:41.760 --> 0:24:44.080 Joe had been in an awful car accident with his 0:24:44.119 --> 0:24:47.800 family at the age of just eight years old. His mother, Maria, 0:24:47.880 --> 0:24:51.359 had a debilitating foot injury, and so Joe acted as 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:55.600 caretaker during this time. He was soon to become a 0:24:55.720 --> 0:24:59.359 caretaker once again to a new They would talk on 0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:03.480 the phone dozens of times per day, dozens dozens, so 0:25:03.520 --> 0:25:05.639 when he was in Newcastle and she was in Canberra, 0:25:06.080 --> 0:25:07.600 a call about fifteen times a day. 0:25:07.560 --> 0:25:08.360 Well, that's toxic. 0:25:08.680 --> 0:25:10.840 Joe was now by her side. In her condition, it 0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:13.399 did not show signs of improvements. One of the things 0:25:13.680 --> 0:25:15.879 that I was often commented that Anew would say that 0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:17.720 she was really sick, she had something, and Joe would 0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:20.080 have to continually go back to Camber to look after her. 0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:22.560 I've known a couple like that. Yeah, it's really yeah, 0:25:22.880 --> 0:25:24.960 Well I didn't end in murder, my lord, No I didn't. 0:25:24.960 --> 0:25:27.600 But no, what did you look at me and the 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:29.920 iron growl? No? 0:25:30.000 --> 0:25:31.560 I cut that out of a podcast too. 0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:36.000 Joe had fallen head over heels for a new and 0:25:36.040 --> 0:25:38.679 it was a strikingly beautiful person. Like I mentioned before, 0:25:39.280 --> 0:25:41.840 a new and Joe would talk for hours and hours 0:25:41.880 --> 0:25:47.240 at a time. By nineteen ninety six, they were dating exclusively. Nice. 0:25:47.880 --> 0:25:48.240 Nice. 0:25:48.640 --> 0:25:50.520 They spent It's like I looked at you like. 0:25:50.800 --> 0:25:52.600 A caused and he looked at me. 0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:54.200 Nice. 0:25:54.880 --> 0:25:59.400 You never't been talking about that exclusively? Ready? One? Two three? Nice. 0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:03.320 They spent most of their free time together and from 0:26:03.359 --> 0:26:08.240 the outside looked like a very happy couple. Joe's family 0:26:08.320 --> 0:26:11.280 sat down for dinner with Anew to finally meet her. 0:26:11.760 --> 0:26:13.879 They wanted to know kind of who this person was 0:26:13.920 --> 0:26:17.280 that their son was spending all this time with Joe's 0:26:17.320 --> 0:26:20.320 parents believed she was intelligent, but thought that something was 0:26:20.359 --> 0:26:21.400 a bit off about her. 0:26:21.680 --> 0:26:22.440 Oh. 0:26:22.520 --> 0:26:25.600 She brought up a lot of odd topics, talking a 0:26:25.640 --> 0:26:29.000 lot about the afterlife, and also spoke about a previous 0:26:29.040 --> 0:26:35.119 relationship in great detail, saying there was almost a little incestuous. 0:26:36.560 --> 0:26:38.680 It was very strange, but her parents passed it off 0:26:38.880 --> 0:26:41.880 as someone who liked to shock people with different out 0:26:41.920 --> 0:26:42.879 their ideas. 0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:45.200 Hang on, I'm going to need to ask more about 0:26:45.240 --> 0:26:49.960 the ancestuous comment. There was a relationship with his family 0:26:50.040 --> 0:26:50.719 was incestuous. 0:26:50.880 --> 0:26:53.080 There was nothing more about it. But she described their 0:26:53.119 --> 0:26:56.680 sex life in ing detail, I think, kind of saying 0:26:56.680 --> 0:26:58.199 that he was like a brother to her. It was 0:26:58.240 --> 0:27:02.960 like Joe didn't say anything at the time and continued eating, 0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:05.840 so she just kind of spoke about all of this 0:27:06.000 --> 0:27:07.240 in great detail. 0:27:07.119 --> 0:27:09.399 Kind of insinuating he is used to it, she speaks 0:27:09.440 --> 0:27:11.280 like that all the time. Or maybe he felt uncomfortable 0:27:11.320 --> 0:27:13.240 so just didn't get involved in the conversation. 0:27:13.480 --> 0:27:15.920 Yeah, well, it is kind of alleged that he felt 0:27:15.960 --> 0:27:18.159 uncomfortable and that she was quite controlling. She did all 0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:18.639 the talking. 0:27:19.359 --> 0:27:21.639 There's nothing wrong with that, Sammy way looking in the 0:27:21.680 --> 0:27:25.320 iron growling and growl for Joe's friends, Anu was confident 0:27:25.400 --> 0:27:26.440 and domineering. 0:27:27.160 --> 0:27:30.359 It was pushing Joe into the background. He was becoming 0:27:30.440 --> 0:27:33.639 less sociable and let Anew take the lead in every 0:27:33.760 --> 0:27:38.080 single conversation. It didn't help when the Chinquas found out 0:27:38.119 --> 0:27:41.920 that Anew was keeping their relationship a secret from her parents. 0:27:42.640 --> 0:27:47.120 They wanted her to prioritize her studies over boys. Joe 0:27:47.160 --> 0:27:49.800 instructed his parents to say if they ever met, the 0:27:49.840 --> 0:27:52.320 Sings to say that he was just a friend of 0:27:52.440 --> 0:27:54.120 a news brother, which is. 0:27:54.080 --> 0:27:57.000 Interesting because why would they meet if it weren't because 0:27:57.040 --> 0:27:57.679 they were dating. 0:27:58.320 --> 0:28:00.680 Well, I don't know. In case they just dropped in Canberra. 0:28:00.800 --> 0:28:02.639 Maybe I don't know that because I was living together. 0:28:04.960 --> 0:28:05.920 They ended up living together. 0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:10.639 You know, I think I reckon the only partner I 0:28:10.640 --> 0:28:13.960 don't know, the only like parents of a partner My 0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:16.320 parents ever met was like at you know, maybe a 0:28:16.320 --> 0:28:21.959 twenty first birthday party, Like until I was living my 0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:25.000 parents would crushing. Yes, yes they weren't invited and made 0:28:25.000 --> 0:28:26.160 them but didn't invite them. 0:28:26.320 --> 0:28:30.680 So the fact that that you know, she didn't want 0:28:30.680 --> 0:28:32.760 to say anything about Joe to any way they were 0:28:32.760 --> 0:28:35.440 living together. Yeah. It made Joe's parents feel a little 0:28:35.480 --> 0:28:38.920 bit off. They didn't like that, and Neew wasn't telling 0:28:38.960 --> 0:28:42.080 anyone about Joe and making him seem really small. They 0:28:42.120 --> 0:28:44.920 noticed that Joe wasn't quite himself and would now fade 0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:49.080 away in the background anytime Joe, anytime I knew was around, 0:28:49.800 --> 0:28:52.640 and New would interrupt every time they tried to talk 0:28:52.720 --> 0:28:56.120 with Joe. One time when Nino the dand was trying 0:28:56.120 --> 0:28:59.160 to have a private conversation with Joe, and You walked 0:28:59.200 --> 0:29:03.600 up behind Joe, hugged him, kissed him, and pulled him away. 0:29:03.840 --> 0:29:06.880 He seemed to the family that Anew was always there 0:29:07.120 --> 0:29:08.680 to snatch Joe away. 0:29:08.800 --> 0:29:11.400 Right, There's not a lot I hate more than that 0:29:11.560 --> 0:29:15.400 level of yuck jealousy. Yeah, I mean murder. I do 0:29:15.520 --> 0:29:15.800 hate you. 0:29:15.880 --> 0:29:16.040 Yeah. 0:29:16.760 --> 0:29:19.680 First um, in no particular order. 0:29:19.720 --> 0:29:23.520 Asual, their nightly dinner was often interrupted by a new 0:29:24.200 --> 0:29:27.280 and New eventually went back to Canberra. So this is 0:29:27.360 --> 0:29:29.480 this is you know, the timeline here is that she 0:29:29.640 --> 0:29:32.800 kept coming back to Newcastle at different points. She come 0:29:32.880 --> 0:29:36.400 back for a summer period or any holiday. She'd come 0:29:36.400 --> 0:29:38.040 back she wanted to be with her mum, and then 0:29:38.080 --> 0:29:40.880 she eventually went back to Canberra, four hundred and fifty 0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:45.800 kilometers south, which meant that Joe and her couldn't see 0:29:45.840 --> 0:29:46.880 each other as. 0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:48.440 Often didn't realize it was that far. 0:29:48.600 --> 0:29:51.920 It's a really long way from Yeah. Yeah. He would 0:29:52.000 --> 0:29:53.880 drive five and a half hours to see her on 0:29:53.920 --> 0:29:57.560 a Friday and return early Monday morning to start work 0:29:57.760 --> 0:29:58.560 hardly sleeping. 0:29:58.640 --> 0:30:00.400 Oh my god, that's a good boy friend. 0:30:00.920 --> 0:30:04.000 Very good boyfriend, very good boyfriend. A new called Joe 0:30:04.160 --> 0:30:09.880 every night, often during the family meal, sometimes after. He 0:30:09.880 --> 0:30:12.800 would go and talk to her every time she called. 0:30:12.960 --> 0:30:15.160 No, sorry, rude, if you're having dinner with your family 0:30:15.200 --> 0:30:15.800 to take the call. 0:30:15.720 --> 0:30:18.400 Later, Maria thought. Marie would often take the phone off 0:30:18.440 --> 0:30:21.560 him and tell a knew to let him eat his meal. 0:30:22.200 --> 0:30:27.200 I am like Maria, Maria's great because it's from my 0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:31.920 said story Marie. I just met a girl named Maria. 0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:36.720 That's beautiful. Because of all the calls, their phone bill skyrocketed. 0:30:37.120 --> 0:30:40.520 The calls were excessive, not to mention the expense. Joe 0:30:40.600 --> 0:30:43.520 was spending every weekend to spend time with her back 0:30:43.600 --> 0:30:48.000 in Canberra, and Niel often complained about being sick, which 0:30:48.040 --> 0:30:51.320 crippled her. From time to time. He would drop everything 0:30:51.480 --> 0:30:55.400 when she complained about being sick. Maria worried that Joe 0:30:55.440 --> 0:30:58.760 was exhausting himself and finding it hard to juggle everything 0:30:58.960 --> 0:31:01.400 with all the other things had going on in his life. 0:31:01.800 --> 0:31:05.240 Maria tried to warn Joe not to let Anew control him, 0:31:05.400 --> 0:31:08.560 but he said, don't make me choose. I love you, 0:31:08.840 --> 0:31:11.720 but she needs me. Oh that broke Maria's heart. 0:31:11.800 --> 0:31:12.760 That breaks my heart. 0:31:12.840 --> 0:31:16.640 I am Maria, You're Maria. In September nineteen ninety six, 0:31:17.160 --> 0:31:19.400 Joe finally decided that he was going to move in 0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:22.600 to be with a new He was going to move 0:31:22.680 --> 0:31:26.760 to Canberra. They moved into a semi detached townhouse together 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:30.479 and even opened up a joint bank account called ANEW 0:31:30.600 --> 0:31:34.720 and Joe's marriage account whoa as while Anew was studying, 0:31:34.840 --> 0:31:37.280 Joe was going to have to be the financial provider. 0:31:38.600 --> 0:31:41.600 Their house was in a bustling part of town near 0:31:41.640 --> 0:31:43.680 the university, in a place called Downer. 0:31:44.600 --> 0:31:47.520 In huge Downer, it sounds like a real upper of 0:31:47.560 --> 0:31:47.960 a town. 0:31:48.520 --> 0:31:50.360 Hey, you should you should? You should say that there? 0:31:50.400 --> 0:31:54.400 I think I did nobe, you should say it there? Ok? 0:31:55.240 --> 0:31:57.840 In Newcastle. At the end of the semester, the couple 0:31:57.880 --> 0:32:02.160 spent three weeks with Joe's family in Newcastle, but Maria 0:32:02.200 --> 0:32:04.920 did not like her. She continued to feel that there 0:32:05.000 --> 0:32:07.000 was something very strange about her. 0:32:07.240 --> 0:32:09.880 I mean, I'm going to play devil's advocatire and he's 0:32:09.920 --> 0:32:13.480 giving a little bit of Italian mother loving her son 0:32:13.480 --> 0:32:15.720 and not wanting another woman to take her away as 0:32:15.760 --> 0:32:20.160 well as Yeah, New sounds a bit alarm a lot 0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:22.080 for a couple in the early twenties. 0:32:22.160 --> 0:32:26.800 Absolutely. Yeah. Once back in Canberra, things took a downward spiral? 0:32:27.080 --> 0:32:28.000 Was it a bit of a downer? 0:32:28.600 --> 0:32:30.200 Nice one again? You did it again? 0:32:30.360 --> 0:32:30.720 Thank you? 0:32:31.320 --> 0:32:35.360 Yes, it was okay. A New continued to be hyper 0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:39.280 fixated on her weight, excessively, going to the gym and 0:32:39.320 --> 0:32:40.560 watching what she was eating. 0:32:40.760 --> 0:32:43.320 Well, that's sad, it's that's a she's got a mental disorder. 0:32:43.440 --> 0:32:47.520 Yeah, absolutely yeah. She was suffering from bolimia and like 0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:52.960 I said before, her parents she she kind of asked 0:32:53.000 --> 0:32:55.640 her parents time and time again for liposuction. Her dad 0:32:55.680 --> 0:32:59.680 allegedly gave in and helped in nineteen ninety seven, and 0:32:59.720 --> 0:33:03.800 Knew was complaining about chronic fatigue and muscle aches. Her 0:33:03.840 --> 0:33:08.600 health was her obsession and Knew constantly had something wrong 0:33:08.640 --> 0:33:11.520 with her, that she was fixated on but it was 0:33:11.600 --> 0:33:15.560 all psychological. She approached Maria to speak about her car 0:33:15.680 --> 0:33:18.440 accident and how she dealt with the problem she faced 0:33:18.520 --> 0:33:21.960 with her foot. She noticed that Anew was really fidgety 0:33:22.040 --> 0:33:24.920 that time and thought that perhaps she was having some 0:33:25.000 --> 0:33:30.440 kind of drug withdrawal. Robert, the Chinque's godson was really 0:33:30.480 --> 0:33:34.960 concerned about Joe during his visits to Canberra. He watched 0:33:34.960 --> 0:33:39.920 the spark disappear from Joe's eyes. By mid nineteen ninety seven, 0:33:40.920 --> 0:33:46.360 Anneu was convinced that she had contracted AIDS, which made 0:33:46.360 --> 0:33:49.120 her focus more and more on her health. Oh God, 0:33:49.200 --> 0:33:51.600 so she always had a new fixation of how sick 0:33:51.640 --> 0:33:53.680 she was and thought it was always something happening. 0:33:53.720 --> 0:33:57.760 Is that like a bit of insinuation, maybe some Monchausen syndrome? 0:33:57.920 --> 0:34:00.640 Yes, yeah, they could be that. But also you know 0:34:00.760 --> 0:34:03.200 that there is some kind of drug effect there. 0:34:03.080 --> 0:34:05.760 As well, and medical anxiety. 0:34:05.280 --> 0:34:09.120 Absolutely yeah, as she believed her body was shutting down. God, 0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:12.080 she was furious with Joe that didn't seem to care 0:34:12.320 --> 0:34:15.759 enough about her many ailments. When the results came back 0:34:15.840 --> 0:34:24.920 negative about the AIDS, she continued on various other diagnosises, diagnosesses, diagnosis, diagnosis. 0:34:25.000 --> 0:34:28.520 Her parents attempted to have her admitted to a psychiatric facility, 0:34:29.000 --> 0:34:31.400 but she wasn't seen as a threat to herself or 0:34:31.520 --> 0:34:35.600 others and could not be admitted against her will. And 0:34:35.640 --> 0:34:37.200 this is this is what happens. You know, once you're 0:34:37.239 --> 0:34:42.080 over eighteen here in Australia, you cannot be admitted anywhere. 0:34:42.600 --> 0:34:45.120 Against will unless you're deemed. 0:34:44.880 --> 0:34:50.200 Unless you're deemed unfit. Yeah, you can't make choices for yourself. 0:34:50.760 --> 0:34:54.120 And who was taking ipp acac for a period of time. 0:34:54.680 --> 0:34:56.640 She said that Joe would point I'm going to explain that. 0:34:56.680 --> 0:34:59.160 Don't you worry about how Aha? She said that Joe 0:34:59.400 --> 0:35:01.960 had pointed out out this drug to her. Now it 0:35:02.040 --> 0:35:04.480 has been said that perhaps Joan mentioned the drug at 0:35:04.480 --> 0:35:07.960 a dinner party in passing as it's what supermodels take 0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:11.000 to keep weight off. Oh, this is a definition I 0:35:11.120 --> 0:35:15.320 found of the drug. Syrup of Ippacac, or simply ippocac, 0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:19.120 is a drug that was once widely used as an 0:35:19.120 --> 0:35:28.960 ex expertrrent acceptaurrent ecce and a rapid acting emetic. It 0:35:29.040 --> 0:35:33.839 is obtained from the dried rhizome and roots of the 0:35:34.280 --> 0:35:38.359 epicaquana plant, from which it derives its name. It is 0:35:38.560 --> 0:35:42.080 no longer regularly used in medicine. 0:35:41.840 --> 0:35:44.239 So it like an appetite of presidtism. 0:35:44.480 --> 0:35:46.680 Yeah yeah, and kind of like a weight loss thing. 0:35:46.840 --> 0:35:48.560 So a lot of supermodels did it to keep the 0:35:48.680 --> 0:35:52.160 weight off, you know, And the big thing here was that, 0:35:52.920 --> 0:35:56.000 and it was like, oh, we mentioned it as a 0:35:56.040 --> 0:35:59.600 suggestion for me, But it later went on to say 0:35:59.640 --> 0:36:02.440 that he probably just mentioned it at one time and 0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:06.640 she thought, I'll use that. And Neil had been taking 0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:09.400 a lot of drugs for recreational use at the time. 0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:12.920 Drugs were really big at the time at ANU and 0:36:12.960 --> 0:36:16.800 Canberra in general. She would take ecstasy with her previous 0:36:16.800 --> 0:36:19.880 boyfriend Simon. She would stop when she went home to 0:36:19.920 --> 0:36:22.239 her parents and would often have withdrawals at the time. 0:36:22.440 --> 0:36:24.759 Oh dear, her parents are both doctors as well, so 0:36:24.760 --> 0:36:28.080 they've kind of would have seen what was happening. At 0:36:28.080 --> 0:36:31.919 the time, Anew had some building resentment, stating that Joe 0:36:31.960 --> 0:36:35.360 didn't do anything around the house and that she felt 0:36:35.400 --> 0:36:39.000 that she was a housewife. She made another complaint to 0:36:39.000 --> 0:36:42.520 the university counselor, saying that Joe had hit her, yelled 0:36:42.560 --> 0:36:45.840 at her, and abused her. He had blamed her for 0:36:45.960 --> 0:36:49.000 hitting her, and that she couldn't leave him because he 0:36:49.120 --> 0:36:53.040 was financially supporting her. This took place a few months 0:36:53.120 --> 0:36:54.560 before Joe's death. 0:36:54.880 --> 0:36:57.319 Do we know that was allegations? 0:36:57.560 --> 0:37:02.400 Oh yeah, yeah, since come out and it was sentenced 0:37:02.440 --> 0:37:03.839 that she made that up? 0:37:04.320 --> 0:37:06.399 Is in she admitted to making it up or other 0:37:06.400 --> 0:37:07.680 people up said she. 0:37:07.719 --> 0:37:10.880 Made it up. Yeah, she told the counselor and that 0:37:10.960 --> 0:37:12.600 she was building a case. Yeah. 0:37:12.680 --> 0:37:16.560 Oh Jesus, okay, I was going to have a believe 0:37:16.600 --> 0:37:19.120 women moment if other people had said, no, actually made 0:37:19.160 --> 0:37:19.440 that up? 0:37:19.640 --> 0:37:21.960 Yeah, no, no, no, it was definitely yeah, something that she 0:37:22.040 --> 0:37:25.759 made up and knew then believed that she had a 0:37:25.920 --> 0:37:30.040 degenerative muscle wasting disease that was fatal and believed that 0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:31.799 she only had a few months to live. 0:37:32.040 --> 0:37:35.319 Does that a bit Munchausen, doesn't It does if she's 0:37:35.400 --> 0:37:38.560 really believing she's got all these things that are wrong. 0:37:39.000 --> 0:37:40.080 Oh dear, is it? 0:37:40.840 --> 0:37:41.160 Or is it? 0:37:41.560 --> 0:37:45.080 Yeah? Munchausen by proxy is when a parent or someone 0:37:45.160 --> 0:37:48.520 else but Munchausen. 0:37:47.960 --> 0:37:49.760 Is well, I don't like a hypercontract. 0:37:50.320 --> 0:37:52.160 Yeah yeah, maybe it's just that, To be fair, I 0:37:52.160 --> 0:37:55.960 think Munchausen is more you kind of believe you've got 0:37:56.040 --> 0:37:57.879 illness and that actually wheels. 0:37:57.560 --> 0:37:59.160 It on, right. 0:37:59.480 --> 0:38:04.080 I think I'm wrong, dear listeners, But yeah, maybe it's 0:38:04.120 --> 0:38:06.560 just HYPOCHONDI Yeah, yeah, like she just kind of felt 0:38:06.600 --> 0:38:07.520 like she had everything. 0:38:08.640 --> 0:38:12.200 She didn't tell her parents what it was exactly, just 0:38:12.280 --> 0:38:15.600 that she was sick. Her parents continued to encourage her 0:38:15.640 --> 0:38:19.239 to go to the doctor time and time again. She 0:38:19.360 --> 0:38:21.960 told her friends, but her friends kind of thought that 0:38:22.000 --> 0:38:24.480 it was a tall tale. So she was known for 0:38:24.560 --> 0:38:26.840 exaggerate exactly. 0:38:27.000 --> 0:38:28.760 Okay, she's got something else again, now. 0:38:28.800 --> 0:38:32.640 Something else again. Yeah, it was a figment of her imagination, 0:38:33.400 --> 0:38:36.520 but it was like she believed it. She started giving 0:38:36.560 --> 0:38:40.640 away her CDs and clothes. She showered up to seven 0:38:40.719 --> 0:38:44.680 times a day. Oh god, she's really obsessive, really obsessive. 0:38:45.160 --> 0:38:47.920 She believed that she got the disease from taking ippocac 0:38:48.160 --> 0:38:49.359 and blamed Joe for that. 0:38:49.640 --> 0:38:50.160 Oh dear. 0:38:50.480 --> 0:38:53.319 She actually told some people that she was going to 0:38:53.400 --> 0:38:57.160 kill Joe. Okay, she also told several people that she 0:38:57.280 --> 0:39:00.480 was going to kill herself, and new made several attempts 0:39:00.520 --> 0:39:02.759 to get a gun. She went, god, yeah, so she 0:39:02.800 --> 0:39:05.240 wanted to kill herself with a gun. That didn't happen, 0:39:05.280 --> 0:39:07.880 and so then she decided she'll go to different dealers 0:39:07.880 --> 0:39:10.960 to get heroin and have a lethal overdose of heroin. 0:39:11.040 --> 0:39:15.040 Someone told her that that's actually a pain free way to. 0:39:15.000 --> 0:39:17.360 Do it, and she had never like she wasn't a 0:39:17.360 --> 0:39:18.040 heroin user. 0:39:18.200 --> 0:39:20.399 No, well, yeah, no, I don't think so. I think 0:39:20.400 --> 0:39:22.600 that was the first time she did heroin. I mean, yeah, 0:39:22.800 --> 0:39:24.040 other drugs, but not so. 0:39:24.080 --> 0:39:25.800 It was kind of like, I've never done heroin, so 0:39:25.800 --> 0:39:27.720 it would be quite easy to overdose on that. Maybe 0:39:27.719 --> 0:39:28.839 it was the thought she had. 0:39:29.200 --> 0:39:31.759 Well, someone told her that that's how you can kill yourself. Yeah, 0:39:31.920 --> 0:39:34.480 so saying that if you actually had a lethal dose, 0:39:34.840 --> 0:39:36.840 it would be the best way to go be pain free. 0:39:37.080 --> 0:39:40.080 God and Knew would allegedly talk about it, how much 0:39:40.120 --> 0:39:43.600 smarter she was than Joe and constantly put him down 0:39:43.640 --> 0:39:44.600 in front of everyone. 0:39:45.000 --> 0:39:47.160 Again, because you felt so good when your ex boyfriend 0:39:47.160 --> 0:39:48.440 did that to you. Let's go and do it to 0:39:48.480 --> 0:39:48.759 your co. 0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:50.920 Let's never think about that. She does far worse, but 0:39:51.000 --> 0:39:54.240 let's ever think about that as well. Joe was getting 0:39:54.280 --> 0:39:57.640 sick of the relationship and wanted an out. He was 0:39:57.640 --> 0:40:00.759 starting to make plans to break it off. He had 0:40:00.760 --> 0:40:03.360 purchased a new car, which was the first part of 0:40:03.400 --> 0:40:05.960 his exit plan. And the first time you could see 0:40:06.000 --> 0:40:09.480 the joy back in his eyes. Many have since stated 0:40:09.480 --> 0:40:13.680 that a new knew. Who knew? That's a hard one there, Sorry, 0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:17.080 everyone knew that he was going to leave. In fact, 0:40:17.120 --> 0:40:19.759 in his diary he had a note that he was 0:40:19.800 --> 0:40:24.319 going to pack up and leave. On the Monday, Joe's mother, Maria, 0:40:24.520 --> 0:40:26.880 had noticed that most of his things were gone in 0:40:26.960 --> 0:40:29.839 the house, like he had already been packing up and 0:40:29.920 --> 0:40:33.520 trying to leave. And Who spoke quite openly. 0:40:33.280 --> 0:40:37.200 Sorry, I'm so sorry. He was just crawling along the ground, 0:40:37.239 --> 0:40:39.399 but with his leg both his front and back legs 0:40:39.400 --> 0:40:41.200 stretched out as far as he could possibly do, Like 0:40:42.280 --> 0:40:42.759 that's kind of. 0:40:42.680 --> 0:40:50.840 Cool, say no comment. And wh spoke quite openly about 0:40:50.920 --> 0:40:54.240 killing herself and a suicide packed between her and Joe. 0:40:54.600 --> 0:40:56.960 She would speak quite openly about it, but no one 0:40:57.120 --> 0:40:58.440 ever paid attention. 0:40:58.719 --> 0:41:00.960 So, I'm so sorry, I'm laughing, He digs, and I'll 0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:03.399 stop looking at him, obviously not laughing about this story. 0:41:03.400 --> 0:41:06.040 I'm so sorry, bless you more so. 0:41:06.160 --> 0:41:09.359 Yeah, she spoke openly about wanting to take her own 0:41:09.400 --> 0:41:12.799 life with a suicide pact with Joe. She would speak 0:41:12.880 --> 0:41:15.440 quite openly about it, but no one paid any attention. 0:41:15.520 --> 0:41:16.400 To her anymore. 0:41:16.800 --> 0:41:19.279 Oh god, it sounds like a proper boy who cried 0:41:19.280 --> 0:41:19.839 wolf at this. 0:41:19.800 --> 0:41:23.200 Point, absolutely, and who was diagnosed with a personality disorder 0:41:23.239 --> 0:41:26.200 and depression. But a lot of people around her said 0:41:26.239 --> 0:41:28.840 that she was just being dramatic and often lied about 0:41:28.880 --> 0:41:31.239 what was going on. Oh God, and what she was 0:41:31.280 --> 0:41:32.719 going to do at that point as well. 0:41:33.000 --> 0:41:33.760 Yeah. 0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:36.360 In nineteen ninety seven, a new told a friend that 0:41:36.400 --> 0:41:38.759 she hated Joe and wanted to go on a rampage 0:41:38.800 --> 0:41:42.160 and kill Joe, her ex boyfriend Simon, and all of 0:41:42.160 --> 0:41:45.279 the doctors that had misdiagnosed her and did not take 0:41:45.360 --> 0:41:49.400 her seriously. She said, I studied psychiatric texts and it 0:41:49.440 --> 0:41:53.040 wouldn't be too hard to convince someone you're insane. 0:41:53.400 --> 0:41:59.520 Oh, oh god, I'm sorry. Like I'm flicking between oh no, 0:41:59.640 --> 0:42:00.920 the poor thing and oh yeah. 0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:07.240 She visited the library with her close friend and fellow student, 0:42:07.840 --> 0:42:11.680 martav Row. Great name, great name. A little bit about MARTYVI. 0:42:12.120 --> 0:42:14.719 Martive was an only child until the birth of a 0:42:14.800 --> 0:42:18.799 much younger sibling who was disabled. The family's hopes then 0:42:18.840 --> 0:42:21.319 focused on Martive and all pressure that seemed to be 0:42:21.360 --> 0:42:25.080 placed on her. She was a great tennis player growing 0:42:25.200 --> 0:42:27.960 up and a good student, although she didn't get high 0:42:28.040 --> 0:42:31.080 enough a high enough score after high school to get 0:42:31.120 --> 0:42:35.160 into medicine, so decided she'd do law instead. 0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:39.040 Imagine a law I guess I'll just do law. 0:42:39.480 --> 0:42:42.000 Her father was a well respected teacher and her mother 0:42:42.160 --> 0:42:46.520 a doctor. They both retired by the time that Martivi 0:42:46.719 --> 0:42:50.000 was at in university, but by the time the trial 0:42:50.040 --> 0:42:52.680 began they both had to start working again to pay 0:42:52.680 --> 0:42:56.480 for her legal fees and a defense. In the family 0:42:56.560 --> 0:42:59.640 home there was strictly no smoking and no drinking. 0:43:00.080 --> 0:43:01.359 Is it's a friend of our news, he's a friend 0:43:01.360 --> 0:43:02.080 of a nurse? Yep. 0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:05.520 Martivi was the quieter, more studious of her in Anu, 0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:10.120 and she followed her blindly. It was since been kind 0:43:10.120 --> 0:43:11.800 of stated that she was a bit of a doormat 0:43:11.840 --> 0:43:17.880 and was constantly walked on by stronger people. So Anu 0:43:18.120 --> 0:43:22.279 and Martave sourced a book about the individual's right to die. 0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:28.600 It contained information about assisted suicide and legislation. They photocopied 0:43:28.680 --> 0:43:33.080 several pages of this book. During this time, her parents 0:43:33.120 --> 0:43:36.000 tried to have her committed to a psychiatric facility again 0:43:36.120 --> 0:43:39.239 without her consent. This time this had to go through 0:43:39.280 --> 0:43:45.600 a magistrate, and before this long long approval process. Joe 0:43:45.680 --> 0:43:46.879 Chinque would be dead. 0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:47.560 Oh shit. 0:43:58.800 --> 0:44:01.480 Her parents tried to have her committed to a psychiatric 0:44:01.520 --> 0:44:05.080 facility again without her consent. This time this had to 0:44:05.120 --> 0:44:10.719 go through a magistrate. And before this long long approval process, 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:15.279 Joe chinkwe would be dead, oh shit? And who told 0:44:15.320 --> 0:44:18.680 several people that Joe and her would be overdosing together 0:44:18.880 --> 0:44:22.040 in a suicide pact. She and Joe, sorry, sorry, sorry 0:44:22.200 --> 0:44:25.480 that she and Joe would be overdosing in a suicide pact. 0:44:25.840 --> 0:44:28.160 But Joe had no idea about this. 0:44:28.200 --> 0:44:31.320 But that's not a suicide packed then suicide. 0:44:31.400 --> 0:44:33.560 She was telling people to get them on kind of 0:44:33.680 --> 0:44:36.840 so that they would not raise aus ficion with Joe, 0:44:37.000 --> 0:44:38.280 which is just sorry. 0:44:38.320 --> 0:44:41.480 So she was saying, it's a suicide pact, so don't 0:44:41.520 --> 0:44:42.000 say anything. 0:44:42.040 --> 0:44:44.959 Don't say anything, Okay, far out. 0:44:45.160 --> 0:44:47.080 So it's obviously not a suicide pact, but that's what 0:44:47.160 --> 0:44:47.759 she was telling us. 0:44:49.600 --> 0:44:52.240 She told other people that she was going to drug 0:44:52.360 --> 0:44:55.160 him so that he was not aware that she was 0:44:55.239 --> 0:44:57.680 killing herself. So an another part of what she was 0:44:57.719 --> 0:45:00.000 saying was I'm going to kill myself with Joe would 0:45:00.040 --> 0:45:01.960 get too upset, So what I'm gonna do is I'm 0:45:01.960 --> 0:45:04.560 gonna drug him with row hipnole in his coffee. He's 0:45:04.640 --> 0:45:06.919 nightly coffee. He's one of tho people that has coffee. 0:45:07.200 --> 0:45:07.560 Weirdo. 0:45:07.600 --> 0:45:08.360 I don't understand. 0:45:08.360 --> 0:45:10.240 No, no, no, no Italian Italian. 0:45:10.280 --> 0:45:11.840 It's Italian, not a weirdo Italian. 0:45:12.840 --> 0:45:14.200 Sometimes they're confused. 0:45:15.160 --> 0:45:17.960 A new purchased another graham of heroin. 0:45:18.600 --> 0:45:20.960 Hang on, could we just go back to the I'll 0:45:21.000 --> 0:45:23.479 drug him because they'll get too upset. So it would 0:45:23.480 --> 0:45:26.680 be much better if he wakes up from a drugged 0:45:26.800 --> 0:45:30.200 stupor not knowing why he passed out and found his 0:45:30.239 --> 0:45:33.640 girlfriend dead. Yeah, that's maybe worse. 0:45:34.320 --> 0:45:36.800 It's a perfect plan. I don't I don't really, I 0:45:36.840 --> 0:45:40.399 don't really understand. I think she was I don't think 0:45:40.400 --> 0:45:43.640 she's thinking clearly of this, And I think that this 0:45:43.880 --> 0:45:46.040 was part of her plan that she thought and Martivey 0:45:46.280 --> 0:45:47.080 was going along. 0:45:46.920 --> 0:45:51.120 For the ride, like willingly sorry, not willingly knowingly or 0:45:51.160 --> 0:45:53.279 was she just kind of thinking, my friend's just kind 0:45:53.280 --> 0:45:54.240 of talk and smoke again. 0:45:54.280 --> 0:45:56.439 There's a bit of that. There's a bit of who knows, 0:45:56.880 --> 0:46:01.440 there's a bit of who knows your honor, who her magistrate? 0:46:01.480 --> 0:46:05.400 And magistrate? You can I can I raise this. I 0:46:05.480 --> 0:46:09.160 don't know. I think in this it was she kind 0:46:09.160 --> 0:46:14.400 of always thought that a New was talking smack. She 0:46:14.400 --> 0:46:18.280 she said this several times before. However, she did continually 0:46:18.280 --> 0:46:19.840 tell people throughout all of this that it. 0:46:20.480 --> 0:46:22.720 Told people that this is what I knew was saying, 0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:25.040 that's what I was doing. Okay. 0:46:25.200 --> 0:46:28.479 A New purchased a graham of heroin. The dealer asked 0:46:28.520 --> 0:46:32.040 why she needed so much, and she said, someone's coming 0:46:32.080 --> 0:46:36.000 with me. The dealer asked if a New intended to 0:46:36.120 --> 0:46:38.719 end her own life, and she said that she did, 0:46:39.040 --> 0:46:42.080 but she would never reveal who the other person was. 0:46:42.040 --> 0:46:43.560 And the dealer still sold it to her. 0:46:44.080 --> 0:46:45.480 A dealer is or what's going to sell it? 0:46:45.520 --> 0:46:47.200 Okay, Yeah, that's a good point. There is. 0:46:49.400 --> 0:46:51.440 I don't think with a dealer there is anything. 0:46:51.719 --> 0:46:53.120 Deal was like, I just wanted to have a good 0:46:53.120 --> 0:46:55.160 time and that's all I care about. 0:46:56.360 --> 0:46:59.239 House is for? Who's that for? Good point? Good point? 0:46:59.239 --> 0:47:01.759 Good point? Good Now what we are going to go 0:47:01.920 --> 0:47:05.480 is the first part of this horrible, horrible, horrible event 0:47:06.400 --> 0:47:14.200 titled the First Dinner Party. Oh October Sunday, Okay, in 0:47:14.200 --> 0:47:19.560 the weirdest way. October Sunday, nineteenth, Joe visited his parents. 0:47:19.239 --> 0:47:21.479 In Newcastle Sunday, October nineteen. 0:47:21.560 --> 0:47:26.040 Easier Sunday, October nineteen, beautiful Joe, I'll do it one 0:47:26.040 --> 0:47:26.480 more time. 0:47:27.400 --> 0:47:27.840 No. 0:47:27.920 --> 0:47:33.400 Sunday, October nineteenth, Joe visited his parents in Newcastle. He 0:47:33.480 --> 0:47:35.840 told his mum that he and anew were hosting a 0:47:35.880 --> 0:47:39.879 dinner party the following evening back in Canberra. He wanted 0:47:39.920 --> 0:47:42.719 to know if his mum had any meals prepared that 0:47:42.800 --> 0:47:45.879 he could serve his guests. So what a young Isewan boy? 0:47:46.320 --> 0:47:48.440 If such? Did I tell you? Bo? I love that Mama. 0:47:48.440 --> 0:47:53.839 Please please to Newcastle, sorry not to Sydney, So. 0:47:54.239 --> 0:47:56.479 Take your home cooked meals four hundred and something. 0:47:57.840 --> 0:47:59.120 So he wanted to know if she had any pre 0:47:59.239 --> 0:48:01.319 prepared meals so she could serve all of his guests 0:48:01.320 --> 0:48:01.879 for a dinner party. 0:48:01.920 --> 0:48:03.040 Don't feel like she would have? 0:48:03.400 --> 0:48:07.160 Well, Maria offered to cook something. Yeahad he'd pick up 0:48:07.200 --> 0:48:10.080 some fried chicken on the way home dinner party if 0:48:10.080 --> 0:48:11.200 she was getting fried And. 0:48:11.160 --> 0:48:16.520 It's not comparable to Maria's beautiful Italian food. No beautiful food, Maria, 0:48:16.640 --> 0:48:18.080 I'll have your Italian food plan. Well. 0:48:18.080 --> 0:48:20.399 The beautiful thing about this story, and there is only 0:48:20.600 --> 0:48:24.040 kind of one, is that Helen Ghana got to spend 0:48:24.080 --> 0:48:26.000 quite a lot of time with Maria and Maria would 0:48:26.000 --> 0:48:32.319 always cook for her over Maria, Maria is Beautiful. October twentieth, 0:48:32.800 --> 0:48:35.759 nineteen ninety seven. Dinner party Monday was set to be 0:48:35.840 --> 0:48:40.279 held and everyone showed up fully aware of a new's 0:48:40.320 --> 0:48:43.960 a new a news mental state. Martivi turned up with 0:48:43.960 --> 0:48:49.040 one of her friends, Olivia, who had not met Joe 0:48:49.440 --> 0:48:50.440 or anew before. 0:48:51.360 --> 0:48:54.719 Sorry when you're aware of her mental state, meaning that 0:48:54.760 --> 0:48:56.880 she wasn't in a good place at your time, or 0:48:56.920 --> 0:49:01.680 knowing what her plans were both What, No, I don't 0:49:01.719 --> 0:49:05.160 believe that. I can't believe that. Yeah, so they've come 0:49:05.200 --> 0:49:06.719 to a dinner party knowing. 0:49:06.520 --> 0:49:09.120 Martav has told everybody exactly why they're going along. 0:49:09.400 --> 0:49:12.080 We're going to this dinner party tonight, awards and a 0:49:12.200 --> 0:49:16.239 Nu is going to drug her boyfriend with rehypnot. 0:49:15.520 --> 0:49:17.640 No, not that there's going to be suicide packed after. 0:49:17.960 --> 0:49:20.040 What the fuck? Why would you go to that dinner party? 0:49:20.120 --> 0:49:22.120 Well, this is the thing everyone went. It was a 0:49:22.160 --> 0:49:23.080 more curiosity. 0:49:23.680 --> 0:49:23.919 No. 0:49:24.560 --> 0:49:27.400 Before the dinner, Martav showed her a needle mark in 0:49:27.440 --> 0:49:31.440 her skin, explaining that Aniu had been practicing injecting on 0:49:31.560 --> 0:49:36.160 her to practice for her suicide. She explained to Olivia 0:49:36.239 --> 0:49:39.040 that the dinner was a final dinner before Aneu and 0:49:39.239 --> 0:49:40.879 Joe's joined packed and. 0:49:40.760 --> 0:49:43.840 Olivia is a random friend who came with MARTIVI that 0:49:44.000 --> 0:49:44.960 who didn't know the others. 0:49:45.040 --> 0:49:47.960 That's right, No, sorry, he was actually visiting from out 0:49:47.960 --> 0:49:50.320 of town. I think it was that friend there, Sammy. 0:49:50.440 --> 0:49:53.719 If you invited me to a dinner party with a 0:49:53.760 --> 0:49:56.359 friend and they're like on the way, you were like, oh, 0:49:56.440 --> 0:49:59.759 by the way, the friends are going to kill themselves afterwards, 0:50:00.239 --> 0:50:03.160 what would you say, I won't come, thank you very much? 0:50:03.239 --> 0:50:04.879 Will you jump out of the card? Stop dropping roll? 0:50:05.000 --> 0:50:06.440 I'd stopped up and roll, and then I would get 0:50:06.440 --> 0:50:09.120 your mum to make me dinner, me and my whole family. 0:50:09.840 --> 0:50:12.319 You know what. Nothing against my mother, but I don't 0:50:12.320 --> 0:50:14.640 think it'd be a beautiful meal, like Maria's cooking. 0:50:15.239 --> 0:50:16.160 Better than mine. 0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:20.239 Anu told Olivia and Martavi that she had prepared too 0:50:20.320 --> 0:50:23.920 much food, and that they had that they should go 0:50:23.960 --> 0:50:27.680 and knock on the doors of nearby people and get 0:50:27.719 --> 0:50:28.400 them to come. 0:50:29.120 --> 0:50:31.920 It's going on. This is the weirdest store I've ever heard. 0:50:32.120 --> 0:50:35.320 Rumors had spread. By that point of the news, intentions 0:50:35.520 --> 0:50:39.120 for that night, spurring other students, some of which were 0:50:39.120 --> 0:50:43.680 total strangers, to attend in some kind of morbid curiosity. 0:50:43.719 --> 0:50:45.360 What are you talking about, Sammy? 0:50:46.080 --> 0:50:50.000 This is why this case is so bizarre. And through 0:50:50.040 --> 0:50:53.400 Helen Ganna's book, she says, why did these people not 0:50:53.560 --> 0:50:57.160 do more? Joe Chinque was dead. That's what she kind 0:50:57.200 --> 0:50:59.040 of repeats throughout the book, and it's. 0:50:59.000 --> 0:51:03.080 Very powerful love the power of that. It's the effect 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:06.239 that I need the answer. I don't just want no question. 0:51:06.320 --> 0:51:10.600 Giving lawyers and a lot of them have since spoken 0:51:10.640 --> 0:51:14.960 out about it. Some of them have not what what that. 0:51:15.000 --> 0:51:19.080 They all wanted to go and see why the people 0:51:19.120 --> 0:51:22.680 invited all new of a news plans to take her 0:51:22.800 --> 0:51:26.439 and Joe's life. They all believed it was some kind 0:51:26.520 --> 0:51:29.759 of fairwell party. Now the only person that didn't know 0:51:29.920 --> 0:51:31.840 again was Joe chinquay yucky. 0:51:31.920 --> 0:51:33.239 I hate this, and. 0:51:33.160 --> 0:51:36.160 New made it clear to everyone invited that Joe was 0:51:36.200 --> 0:51:39.759 in on the pact. They appeared really loving towards each 0:51:39.800 --> 0:51:41.919 other all night, which made a lot of people who 0:51:41.920 --> 0:51:45.000 intended to believe it was all now a harmless joke. 0:51:45.920 --> 0:51:47.800 So they went along and then they went, oh, okay, 0:51:47.880 --> 0:51:49.000 maybe it's a joke. All a lot. 0:51:49.080 --> 0:51:52.279 I feel like, I mean, as I've just very obviously said, 0:51:52.320 --> 0:51:57.200 I wouldn't go anyway, but I feel like if they 0:51:57.200 --> 0:52:00.920 were seeing me really lovey and nice, that would almost 0:52:00.920 --> 0:52:03.319 make me believe it more, because you often hear the 0:52:03.400 --> 0:52:06.080 people who have decided they're going to take their own 0:52:06.160 --> 0:52:11.160 lives are quite happy and at peace and COMFORTA last 0:52:11.239 --> 0:52:12.440 days well because. 0:52:12.200 --> 0:52:13.880 He didn't know what was going on, but you know, 0:52:13.960 --> 0:52:16.640 but maybe they could eat both of them. They're both happy. 0:52:16.760 --> 0:52:20.080 But the guests thought he did know. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, 0:52:20.120 --> 0:52:23.320 I don't know. I think I would go, oh, yeah, 0:52:22.760 --> 0:52:26.600 they've decided to do this, and then oh god, yeah, 0:52:26.719 --> 0:52:28.319 I wouldn't do that again. I wouldn't be there. 0:52:29.200 --> 0:52:31.720 Martave drove quite a few of the guests home, telling 0:52:31.760 --> 0:52:34.640 them that the suicide was going ahead. Later that night, 0:52:35.320 --> 0:52:37.120 a few of the people asked if they should seek 0:52:37.239 --> 0:52:41.160 medical assistance, but Martive told them not to a few 0:52:41.160 --> 0:52:43.640 of the people thought that it was a news choice 0:52:43.680 --> 0:52:45.959 if she really wanted to do that, and it wasn't 0:52:45.960 --> 0:52:49.719 their place to get involved or intervene. Ah, yes, it was, 0:52:50.440 --> 0:52:55.240 it's well. That night, a new crushed sedatives into Joe's 0:52:55.320 --> 0:52:58.880 drink so that he would drift off. She then fetched 0:52:58.920 --> 0:53:02.400 a pre prepared ringe, but she struggled to find the 0:53:02.520 --> 0:53:05.839 right vein. Joe got up in the morning and went 0:53:05.880 --> 0:53:09.400 to work, seemingly unaware of what had happened. 0:53:09.520 --> 0:53:11.680 Oh by God. 0:53:11.480 --> 0:53:15.960 Akneu called MARTIVI and told her what happened. Martive was 0:53:15.960 --> 0:53:21.800 doing work experience at the Community and Health Services Complaints Commission. Ironic, 0:53:22.000 --> 0:53:26.720 she told two colleagues that something really serious had happened 0:53:26.719 --> 0:53:30.160 the night before and was paranoid the police were going 0:53:30.200 --> 0:53:31.480 to come after Tell the. 0:53:31.400 --> 0:53:34.080 Police, Tell the police. She told me to tell your colleagues, 0:53:34.160 --> 0:53:35.360 tell the police. 0:53:35.440 --> 0:53:38.960 It was the major crime of the century. Ah and 0:53:39.000 --> 0:53:43.279 it had to do with revenge. Ha ha and New 0:53:43.400 --> 0:53:46.399 asked one of her heroin dealer friends to source her 0:53:46.520 --> 0:53:50.400 some row hipnol. The friend had no problem getting it. 0:53:50.440 --> 0:53:53.919 She got fifteen tablets. When paired with heroin, only one 0:53:54.000 --> 0:53:57.760 tablet was necessary. Jesus so that the heroin had actually 0:53:57.800 --> 0:54:00.279 congealed and she couldn't get it to work. It had 0:54:00.320 --> 0:54:02.560 been too long in the syringe and she couldn't get 0:54:02.560 --> 0:54:05.239 the heroin. She couldn't actually get it to inject. So 0:54:06.560 --> 0:54:08.960 Joe was knocked out after having in his morning coffee, 0:54:09.040 --> 0:54:10.800 woke up the next morning and went, oh, we probably 0:54:10.800 --> 0:54:12.520 felt a bit groggy and as when he had no 0:54:12.600 --> 0:54:17.240 idea that it happened. A few days later, the same 0:54:17.320 --> 0:54:20.319 guests was surprised to receive another invitation, all of them 0:54:20.320 --> 0:54:22.680 all the same guests yep, for I don't know if 0:54:22.680 --> 0:54:24.360 it's all the same guests, but a lot of the 0:54:24.400 --> 0:54:27.800 same people for Friday, October twenty. 0:54:27.360 --> 0:54:30.279 Fourth, Oh my god, same week the. 0:54:30.280 --> 0:54:32.799 Second dinner party. Yep, Monday was the first one. 0:54:32.880 --> 0:54:34.960 And then I hate this story. 0:54:35.320 --> 0:54:39.200 Despite the unsettling knowledge of their plans, they went along. 0:54:40.600 --> 0:54:43.880 The guests were told again that she was planning to 0:54:43.880 --> 0:54:49.280 take her and Joe's lives. Joe returned home to see 0:54:49.400 --> 0:54:52.640 a full house of people. He was surprised. He didn't 0:54:52.680 --> 0:54:54.719 know about the second dinner party, but went along with it. 0:54:55.600 --> 0:54:58.320 He was gracious and a sociable host. 0:54:58.480 --> 0:55:01.480 Oh my god, if I came home and there was 0:55:01.520 --> 0:55:04.400 a house full of people eating cracked and. 0:55:04.440 --> 0:55:08.480 That fried chicken again. He was talking excitedly about his 0:55:08.520 --> 0:55:12.919 new car and his upcoming holiday to Queensland. Martivy told 0:55:12.920 --> 0:55:15.319 her friend Olivia that the plan was going ahead for 0:55:15.440 --> 0:55:18.799 real this time, but Olivia dismissed her, saying, people who 0:55:18.800 --> 0:55:21.160 are going to do this sort of thing don't just 0:55:21.239 --> 0:55:23.680 talk about it. They go ahead and do. 0:55:23.719 --> 0:55:27.680 It, or they're only talking about it. Yeah again, I 0:55:27.680 --> 0:55:29.160 suppose that. I feel like that's what I. 0:55:29.160 --> 0:55:32.520 Would say happened once before the year. Oh okay, yeah, yeah. 0:55:32.719 --> 0:55:33.640 I think it's lot of one. 0:55:33.480 --> 0:55:36.360 Of her things that she just talks about. 0:55:36.800 --> 0:55:40.840 And she did this, and she Martavey was certain that 0:55:40.920 --> 0:55:44.120 there was nothing she could do to stop it. Another 0:55:44.200 --> 0:55:46.680 guest thought it couldn't be true, and others thought it 0:55:46.800 --> 0:55:50.800 was another one of a news tall tales. The couple 0:55:50.880 --> 0:55:53.920 interacted exactly the same that night. They were both happy 0:55:54.280 --> 0:55:55.520 and bubbly. 0:55:55.400 --> 0:55:59.759 Which is interesting when we've just said that Joe had 0:56:00.280 --> 0:56:02.720 been planning to break up with her. Yeah. 0:56:02.960 --> 0:56:05.400 Yeah, maybe he was acting for his friends. I don't know. Maybe, 0:56:05.440 --> 0:56:09.160 I don't know, who knows. The party continued into the 0:56:09.239 --> 0:56:13.960 early hours without incident. After a while, people started heading home. 0:56:14.760 --> 0:56:17.920 At six am the following morning, Martivi arrived home and 0:56:17.960 --> 0:56:21.200 told one of her friends that anew had put ten 0:56:21.400 --> 0:56:25.760 rote hypnal tablets into Joe's coffee and tried to inject 0:56:25.840 --> 0:56:27.480 him with a lethal dose of heroin. 0:56:28.280 --> 0:56:31.960 Was Martaby saying this because she was there or because 0:56:32.000 --> 0:56:33.680 that's what Anu said she was going to do. 0:56:34.320 --> 0:56:36.840 She was apparently there at the time because left after 0:56:36.960 --> 0:56:37.400 she did that. 0:56:37.760 --> 0:56:40.640 Oh shit, yeah, that's accessory. 0:56:41.320 --> 0:56:46.520 Yes, it didn't work. It's amazing. It wasn't his time 0:56:46.719 --> 0:56:47.080 to go. 0:56:47.280 --> 0:56:47.960 Marvy said that. 0:56:48.120 --> 0:56:51.759 Yeah. When the friend asked why Anu was trying to 0:56:51.840 --> 0:56:56.719 hurt Joe, Martavi said, Joe's the problem. She wants to 0:56:56.760 --> 0:56:59.799 take Joe with her. It's because she blames him for 0:56:59.840 --> 0:57:00.600 her condition. 0:57:01.040 --> 0:57:01.600 Oh no. 0:57:02.000 --> 0:57:04.640 Martavy decided at that point that she wasn't going to 0:57:04.680 --> 0:57:07.440 be involved in any further plan, so her friend kind 0:57:07.440 --> 0:57:08.560 of talked her out of it and said, what are 0:57:08.560 --> 0:57:08.959 you doing? 0:57:09.360 --> 0:57:14.560 Hang on? Sorry, after being there to witness someone give someone. 0:57:14.640 --> 0:57:20.200 Tenro hipnos, yeah, tenor hypnos and then heroins. Yeah, well 0:57:20.240 --> 0:57:21.320 didn't see the heroin but. 0:57:21.600 --> 0:57:24.400 Okay, and said, you know what, I've let my friend 0:57:24.400 --> 0:57:26.360 taught me out of doing that ever again. 0:57:26.160 --> 0:57:27.000 I'm not gonna do it anymore. 0:57:27.080 --> 0:57:28.320 I don't like Martiby. 0:57:28.720 --> 0:57:32.160 As the day continued, word of a news plan spread. 0:57:32.760 --> 0:57:35.120 One friend threatened to contact the police, but a new 0:57:35.200 --> 0:57:37.680 found out about this and talk to the friend out 0:57:37.760 --> 0:57:37.960 of it. 0:57:38.120 --> 0:57:41.640 Hang on sirs, Joe, do we know what Joe's condition 0:57:41.720 --> 0:57:43.600 is at this point? Okay? 0:57:44.000 --> 0:57:46.240 And New told the friend that she would do nothing 0:57:46.280 --> 0:57:49.000 to hurt Joe. And who told this person that they 0:57:49.000 --> 0:57:51.600 were going to be engaged? Why would she hurt him? 0:57:51.720 --> 0:57:51.840 What? 0:57:52.440 --> 0:57:55.400 A New admitted to these concerned people that she had 0:57:55.400 --> 0:57:58.439 given Joe the sedatives, but she had only done it 0:57:58.800 --> 0:58:01.000 so that he would be a s when she tried 0:58:01.040 --> 0:58:04.120 to end her own life. She convinced them that Joe 0:58:04.200 --> 0:58:06.760 was not in any danger and she would confess to 0:58:06.840 --> 0:58:12.040 him about spiking his drink. Everyone decided to let this go. 0:58:12.240 --> 0:58:14.400 Oh wow, so the news at that point had only 0:58:14.440 --> 0:58:17.400 spread of the temper hypnoal tablets. But I'm sure at 0:58:17.400 --> 0:58:19.240 that point it was I'm sure at that point though 0:58:19.280 --> 0:58:20.520 it wasn't ten like I'm sure. 0:58:20.480 --> 0:58:23.440 People, Oh she drugged him to put him say exactly. 0:58:24.360 --> 0:58:27.959 At ten nineteen that evening, Anu called her friend Len, 0:58:27.960 --> 0:58:31.160 who was fully aware of the sinister plans, but expressed 0:58:31.200 --> 0:58:33.600 his opinion to others that it was just a New 0:58:33.680 --> 0:58:36.480 being dramatic and a desperate cry for attention. 0:58:36.840 --> 0:58:39.720 Ten pm the following night, Saturday night. 0:58:40.760 --> 0:58:44.680 Neil asked how strong ra hypnol was. She said, that 0:58:44.760 --> 0:58:47.800 Joe had been asleep for a really long time, about 0:58:47.840 --> 0:58:51.560 fifteen hours, and was now groggy and couldn't keep his 0:58:51.720 --> 0:58:55.400 eyes open. She was worried about what she had done, 0:58:55.440 --> 0:58:58.200 but Len told her that she wouldn't have caused any 0:58:58.400 --> 0:59:02.360 long term damage. Joe took the phone and said, hey, mate, 0:59:02.600 --> 0:59:06.520 my mind is one hundred percent functional. Joe said that apparently, 0:59:06.680 --> 0:59:09.840 yet my body just wants to sleep like crazy. That's all. 0:59:10.000 --> 0:59:14.600 She's worried for nothing. Now. I'm very confused about that, apparently, 0:59:14.880 --> 0:59:18.480 he I don't know if she ever told him that 0:59:18.520 --> 0:59:21.160 she had given him that much for hypnol, but it 0:59:21.200 --> 0:59:24.200 seems like she did confess that to him, told him 0:59:24.200 --> 0:59:26.720 that on the phone, I gave you a hypnole. Blah 0:59:26.720 --> 0:59:27.240 blah blah blah. 0:59:27.440 --> 0:59:29.680 That's why you can't stay awake. 0:59:30.480 --> 0:59:32.800 That's right, I think she had told him at that point. 0:59:33.520 --> 0:59:37.560 After midnight, Anew called another friend, asking if it was impossible, 0:59:37.560 --> 0:59:40.240 if it was possible to inject heroin into your legs 0:59:40.680 --> 0:59:45.360 or the backs of your arm. The next morning, Sunday, 0:59:45.800 --> 0:59:51.040 October twenty sixth, nineteen ninety seven, a new visited Martavi 0:59:51.840 --> 0:59:54.320 and told her that Joe wasn't breathing and she needed 0:59:54.360 --> 0:59:57.320 money to get some heroin to take her own life. 0:59:58.120 --> 1:00:02.120 Martave drove her to an EIGHTE and withdrew two hundred 1:00:02.160 --> 1:00:03.240 and fifty dollars cash. 1:00:03.800 --> 1:00:09.400 Sorry, get alone, I'm so sorry, Marty By Martive can get. 1:00:09.200 --> 1:00:12.080 Fucked, yeash and get fucked. At nine am, a new 1:00:12.360 --> 1:00:16.400 purchased half a gram of heroin. She was anxious and 1:00:16.480 --> 1:00:21.560 kept saying today's the day. Anu continually called Martive that day. 1:00:22.040 --> 1:00:25.560 Martyve told Anu to leave her alone, but eventually caved 1:00:25.640 --> 1:00:30.600 after Anu was extremely persistent. Martive went to pick her up. 1:00:30.840 --> 1:00:32.760 So she was like, leave me alone, Go kill yourself 1:00:32.800 --> 1:00:35.160 in peace. Yeah, fuck this girl. 1:00:35.520 --> 1:00:38.240 They both had a heated argument. While Anu appeared to 1:00:38.240 --> 1:00:41.600 be very distressed. Martivi went to speak to Len and 1:00:41.640 --> 1:00:44.760 told him that after Joe awoke the night before, he 1:00:44.800 --> 1:00:48.040 told Anew that he was going to leave her. Martivi 1:00:48.160 --> 1:00:51.000 then explained that a new tried to kill Joe with heroin. 1:00:52.000 --> 1:00:54.600 Len had been convinced it was all a tall tale 1:00:54.720 --> 1:00:57.920 up until this point. He suggested calling a news parents 1:00:57.920 --> 1:01:00.600 to tell them in case. Anew later claimed that Joe 1:01:00.600 --> 1:01:04.960 had injected himself. Lenn and Martivey went for a drive 1:01:05.200 --> 1:01:09.640 just in case anew tried to involve them further. During 1:01:09.680 --> 1:01:12.680 that drive, Martivi told Lenn that she had actually been 1:01:13.240 --> 1:01:16.840 to their house earlier that day and had witnessed Joe 1:01:17.160 --> 1:01:19.600 unconscious on their bed. 1:01:20.000 --> 1:01:21.200 She'd seen that, She's seen. 1:01:21.040 --> 1:01:22.920 That, and she went to the house, saw him unconscious, 1:01:23.000 --> 1:01:24.560 not moving, and left. 1:01:25.040 --> 1:01:27.920 And then was like, I don't want to help anymore. 1:01:28.200 --> 1:01:29.120 I don't know anymore. 1:01:29.120 --> 1:01:31.560 Took her to get cash now to him and all that. 1:01:33.360 --> 1:01:36.560 Car to keep the car. His skin was pale, his 1:01:36.640 --> 1:01:40.080 lips were blue, but he was still breathing, and decided 1:01:40.160 --> 1:01:40.960 to leave anywhere. 1:01:41.040 --> 1:01:43.240 This is the person who wanted to study medicine. 1:01:43.440 --> 1:01:47.280 That's right, right, a new phone, the friend who had 1:01:47.360 --> 1:01:51.920 supplied the Rowe hypnole. She was advised to call an ambulance, 1:01:51.960 --> 1:01:55.720 but I knew, said that she couldn't because Joe didn't 1:01:55.760 --> 1:01:59.040 know and he would be furious. She said that Joe 1:01:59.320 --> 1:02:04.120 didn't know what didn't know, that that she had given 1:02:04.200 --> 1:02:04.880 him the hypno. 1:02:05.520 --> 1:02:09.080 That if don't call the ambulance for Joe, because he'll 1:02:09.120 --> 1:02:10.680 be mad at me for giving him a hypno. 1:02:10.800 --> 1:02:11.160 That's right? 1:02:12.000 --> 1:02:13.760 Is this story? 1:02:13.880 --> 1:02:17.280 She said that Joe was taking one breath every ten seconds. 1:02:17.760 --> 1:02:19.840 The friend said that she needed to do mouth to 1:02:19.880 --> 1:02:25.040 mouth resuscitation. Joe began vomiting black liquid. The friend told 1:02:25.080 --> 1:02:27.919 her time and time again to hang up and call 1:02:28.120 --> 1:02:31.280 an ambulance, but a news said it was all too late. 1:02:32.120 --> 1:02:33.840 The friend then told a new that if she didn't 1:02:33.880 --> 1:02:36.439 call the ambulance then she might have a murder change 1:02:36.520 --> 1:02:40.520 to deal with. At this point, a new disconnected the call. 1:02:42.160 --> 1:02:45.439 At twelve ten PMS. Is on the Sunday, a new 1:02:45.560 --> 1:02:47.400 called emergency services. 1:02:47.480 --> 1:02:50.080 So we're bordering on twenty four hours from when she 1:02:50.360 --> 1:02:51.840 first gave him a hypno. 1:02:51.720 --> 1:02:53.880 Hypno, not the heroine, but yeah, the rapnoeah louck it 1:02:53.960 --> 1:03:02.040 hell and just watched him. Was absolutely hysterical on the phone, 1:03:02.640 --> 1:03:06.160 which we spoke about at the start. She continually changed 1:03:06.160 --> 1:03:08.280 the address or kind of justs gave a fake address. 1:03:08.320 --> 1:03:10.680 When asked for her name, she said her name was Olivia. 1:03:11.760 --> 1:03:14.640 The dispatcher told her to provide mouth to mouth resuscitation, 1:03:14.800 --> 1:03:17.320 but she couldn't because he was coughing up so much 1:03:17.400 --> 1:03:20.920 blood and his teeth were cleanched shut. When paramedics are 1:03:21.280 --> 1:03:23.760 coughing up blood, I don't know, I don't know. This 1:03:23.840 --> 1:03:27.920 is this is what's bullshit from I know. When paramedics arrived, 1:03:28.200 --> 1:03:32.200 a new waved them down. Joe was lying diagonally across 1:03:32.240 --> 1:03:35.720 the bed, naked from the waist down. He could not 1:03:35.840 --> 1:03:40.400 be resuscitated, and knew begged them to keep trying, throwing 1:03:40.440 --> 1:03:44.760 herself onto his body. It wasn't supposed to happen this way, 1:03:44.840 --> 1:03:48.640 she said. We were supposed to go together. Oh God. 1:03:49.120 --> 1:03:52.439 When police arrived, they had to physically remove anew from 1:03:52.480 --> 1:03:56.040 the bedroom. She explained that she had given Joe four 1:03:56.160 --> 1:04:00.880 or hypnoal tablets and then injected him. She was taken 1:04:01.040 --> 1:04:01.640 into custody. 1:04:01.720 --> 1:04:04.160 She said that to police straight away, straight away, that's interesting. 1:04:05.200 --> 1:04:08.400 On the twenty sixth of October, Joe's mother, Maria was 1:04:08.480 --> 1:04:12.120 on the edge. Joe called her always to check in 1:04:12.200 --> 1:04:15.640 every Sunday, but this time he hadn't. When Joe still 1:04:15.680 --> 1:04:18.520 hadn't called, Maria called Joe, but was met with the 1:04:18.520 --> 1:04:23.560 police officers. Oh god, God, blood ran cold. At the 1:04:23.560 --> 1:04:26.200 same time, there was an officer knocking on her door. 1:04:27.160 --> 1:04:30.919 The police told Maria and Nino that they were there 1:04:31.120 --> 1:04:34.800 about Joe. Maria begged them not to tell her anything more. 1:04:35.880 --> 1:04:38.040 She knew that Joe was gone, but she did not 1:04:38.280 --> 1:04:41.520 want to hear it. Family and friends traveled to the 1:04:41.520 --> 1:04:46.520 margue to identify Joe. Robert, the Chinkway's godson, could hardly 1:04:46.560 --> 1:04:50.120 believe it. He had seen Joe smiling like he used 1:04:50.120 --> 1:04:54.240 to when he spoke about his car. Police explained that 1:04:54.320 --> 1:04:58.480 foul play was suspected and anew had been taken into custody. 1:04:59.080 --> 1:05:03.000 Toxicology are showed high levels of heroin and roe hypnol. 1:05:03.360 --> 1:05:07.080 It was so ro hypnol itself is ten times stronger 1:05:07.120 --> 1:05:08.040 than vallium. 1:05:08.280 --> 1:05:13.040 Oh wow. So yeah, it's probably a stupid question. I'm 1:05:13.080 --> 1:05:16.880 sure the answer is for sedation. But what is very 1:05:16.960 --> 1:05:22.200 hypno used for except drugging someone unwittingly? I don't know. 1:05:22.400 --> 1:05:25.280 It is a very strong sedative, I don't. I don't 1:05:25.320 --> 1:05:26.120 think we have it here. 1:05:27.000 --> 1:05:29.560 Yeah, anymore if you only hear about it used as 1:05:29.600 --> 1:05:33.600 it like for exactly so strong drugging people in nightclubs 1:05:33.600 --> 1:05:35.840 and exactly and it's you know, ten times stronger than 1:05:35.920 --> 1:05:38.120 valium just one. So yeah, that's what I mean. I 1:05:38.160 --> 1:05:40.760 almost feel like I don't know why it exists, which 1:05:40.800 --> 1:05:44.960 is I understand it's an ignorant comment, but it just 1:05:44.960 --> 1:05:46.760 feels like, why can people get it? 1:05:46.840 --> 1:05:49.240 At all. Yeah, it must be used if you have 1:05:49.280 --> 1:05:51.240 a prescription for it must be used for something. But 1:05:51.240 --> 1:05:53.520 I don't really know, Like there. 1:05:53.800 --> 1:05:57.000 Was it fentanyl that Michael Jackson, Yeah, yeah, maybe that 1:05:57.160 --> 1:05:57.600 kind of thing. 1:05:57.640 --> 1:06:00.840 Maybe that. Yeah, So it didn't take too long for 1:06:01.000 --> 1:06:04.280 Martiv row, a New's best friend to be brought in 1:06:04.320 --> 1:06:09.720 for questioning. Detectives soon learned that Joe's murder had been 1:06:09.760 --> 1:06:26.200 planned for months. Detectives soon learned that Joe's murder had 1:06:26.240 --> 1:06:29.400 been planned for months and Knew had studied suicide methods 1:06:29.440 --> 1:06:32.760 extensively and how to inject someone with heroin. 1:06:32.960 --> 1:06:35.320 Then it's not suicide if it's injecting someone else. 1:06:35.480 --> 1:06:39.480 Yeah, Anew needed to rely on her friend, Martivi, who 1:06:39.520 --> 1:06:43.040 had rehypnol, who had connections on how to obtain it. 1:06:43.160 --> 1:06:45.880 So yeah, Martiv's friend who actually had the hypnoal and 1:06:45.880 --> 1:06:49.360 how to obtain it. At both dinner parties, a New 1:06:49.600 --> 1:06:52.840 laced Joe's coffee with a sedative. So first it was 1:06:52.920 --> 1:06:55.440 it was another sedative, and then the second time it 1:06:55.640 --> 1:06:59.040 was hypnoal. The first attempt to inject him with the 1:06:59.040 --> 1:07:03.160 heroin didn't work, it had congealed inside of the syringe. 1:07:03.280 --> 1:07:06.120 On the second evening, a new managed to inject a 1:07:06.160 --> 1:07:09.760 fatal amount of heroin in his bloodstream while he lay 1:07:09.920 --> 1:07:15.200 paralyzed and unable to save himself. Martive was taken to 1:07:15.240 --> 1:07:18.600 the station and was also charged for the murder of 1:07:18.720 --> 1:07:23.640 Joe Chinque. Martavi said, I tried at every stage to intercede. 1:07:25.000 --> 1:07:28.520 Three days later, her parents secured her one hundred thousand 1:07:28.480 --> 1:07:33.600 dollars bail, which she had to remain under supervision. Most 1:07:33.600 --> 1:07:37.840 disturbing of all, ANWSE sat and watched as Joe suffered 1:07:38.440 --> 1:07:42.240 in pain for a very very long time. It was 1:07:42.320 --> 1:07:46.200 only when his lips started turning blue and started coughing blood, 1:07:46.600 --> 1:07:49.240 and people repeatedly taught her to call paramedics that a 1:07:49.320 --> 1:07:52.360 new called an acquaintance and told her that there had 1:07:52.360 --> 1:07:53.200 been an overdose. 1:07:54.080 --> 1:07:55.880 Called an acquaintance, well called her. 1:07:55.920 --> 1:07:58.640 I remember she called the friend and said, oh what 1:07:58.720 --> 1:08:02.240 I do? Pressure second was eaten up with the wild 1:08:02.320 --> 1:08:06.640 goose chase. She put the paramedics through, giving incorrect information 1:08:07.000 --> 1:08:09.640 and even referring to herself as Olivia on the phone. 1:08:09.840 --> 1:08:11.320 Yeah, I want to know more about that. 1:08:11.520 --> 1:08:14.320 Meanwhile, Joe died of a cardiac arrest. 1:08:15.520 --> 1:08:19.080 Police is that the most is that commonly what an 1:08:19.080 --> 1:08:20.040 overdose would cause. 1:08:20.680 --> 1:08:22.639 I think I think it's pretty common. Yeah, I think 1:08:22.640 --> 1:08:24.840 it is pretty common. Yeah, yeah, especially when you can't 1:08:24.880 --> 1:08:27.439 you can't really breathe properly. And there's yeah, I don't know, 1:08:27.600 --> 1:08:31.160 like with Yeah. Police searched Joe's diary and found an 1:08:31.160 --> 1:08:37.320 appointment scheduled get ready to move move urgent today. Joe 1:08:37.360 --> 1:08:40.840 was obviously trying to leave a new he wanted out. 1:08:41.120 --> 1:08:43.840 I mean that's interesting in itself. One, why do you 1:08:43.840 --> 1:08:47.320 put that in your diary when you live with someone? 1:08:48.520 --> 1:08:51.960 Two he was happy at the dinner party. By all 1:08:52.000 --> 1:08:54.559 accounts from other people. I don't know. Maybe they've said 1:08:54.600 --> 1:08:56.920 that because they feel like they realize they might be 1:08:56.920 --> 1:08:57.320 access to. 1:08:57.360 --> 1:09:00.280 Yeah, well you know people, do you know, playne in 1:09:00.320 --> 1:09:02.160 front of other people if there's other people around. I 1:09:02.160 --> 1:09:05.920 think sure, true. True. One year later, Anew and MARTIVI 1:09:06.200 --> 1:09:07.759 were scheduled to be tried together. 1:09:08.120 --> 1:09:10.000 Oh wow, both charged with murder. 1:09:10.360 --> 1:09:13.000 Yeah, this is what was going to happen. Yeah. Anew 1:09:13.160 --> 1:09:15.880 was held in custody a new phone of friend asking 1:09:15.880 --> 1:09:18.479 them to bring her all the high court cases where 1:09:18.479 --> 1:09:21.320 somebody had pled not guilty due to reasons of insanity. 1:09:22.080 --> 1:09:24.200 I decided that's what she's going to thought, you're going. 1:09:24.160 --> 1:09:28.519 To go with. The joint trial began on October sixth, 1:09:28.760 --> 1:09:32.559 nineteen ninety eight. At the Supreme Court, anw pled not 1:09:32.600 --> 1:09:37.720 guilty for reasons of diminished responsibility. This meant that she 1:09:37.840 --> 1:09:40.400 admitted to what she had done, but she could not 1:09:40.479 --> 1:09:42.960 be held liable for murder because of her mental state 1:09:43.040 --> 1:09:46.400 at the time. She claimed that she was suffering from 1:09:46.560 --> 1:09:51.479 untreated borderline personality disorder, a major depressive disorder, which include 1:09:51.560 --> 1:09:56.559 explosive anger, unstable relationships, chronic fears of abandonment, and a 1:09:56.600 --> 1:09:58.400 false sense of reality. 1:09:59.360 --> 1:10:01.320 I don't really know if any of them would. 1:10:01.280 --> 1:10:06.280 Justify murder killing someone, No, exactly. Borderline personal disorder is 1:10:06.280 --> 1:10:09.640 an interesting one, Like I don't really know heaps about that. 1:10:09.840 --> 1:10:12.799 I certainly know people who have had borderline personal disorder, 1:10:12.840 --> 1:10:16.760 and it is it is a very heartbreaking thing to see. 1:10:16.800 --> 1:10:22.240 Yes, I can't think of a case I've heard of 1:10:22.320 --> 1:10:28.120 where that's been successfully as a defense for killing somebody. 1:10:28.120 --> 1:10:30.800 But I could be very wrong. I just can't think 1:10:30.800 --> 1:10:32.880 of the time I've heard that far. It may have. 1:10:33.560 --> 1:10:36.680 The dealer who supplied the heroine was granted immunity for 1:10:36.760 --> 1:10:41.240 providing evidence against the pair. Many people came forward saying 1:10:41.240 --> 1:10:44.120 that they knew of the plans and that Martavi assisted 1:10:44.160 --> 1:10:47.759 in carrying out the plan. When pressed, when no one 1:10:47.800 --> 1:10:51.040 came forward at the time, no one could provide a 1:10:51.080 --> 1:10:54.960 sufficient explanation. That's why you got swangry before. We can't 1:10:54.960 --> 1:10:55.920 provide one. I'm so sorry. 1:10:55.960 --> 1:10:57.600 I'm still waiting for you too. You haven't finished this 1:10:57.680 --> 1:10:59.559 story yet, and if you don't provide me what, I'm 1:10:59.560 --> 1:11:00.639 going to be really mad. 1:11:00.800 --> 1:11:03.480 During the fourth week of the trial, the judge realized 1:11:03.479 --> 1:11:07.080 that that mounting evidence against the pair would likely cause 1:11:07.160 --> 1:11:13.160 unfair prejudice against MARTIVI. He terminated the proceedings, deciding that 1:11:13.200 --> 1:11:17.120 Martive and Anu should be tried separately at a later date. 1:11:17.320 --> 1:11:20.120 Wait, what so I understand. 1:11:19.680 --> 1:11:24.120 That realized that Martive should not be tried with a new. 1:11:24.160 --> 1:11:26.160 You can't do that four weeks into her trial. 1:11:26.360 --> 1:11:28.639 Surely, well apparently they did. 1:11:29.120 --> 1:11:34.920 What This whole thing is so confusing, Like none of 1:11:34.960 --> 1:11:37.200 the things you're saying sound like they're real. 1:11:37.320 --> 1:11:41.040 I know, they're just words, I say the prosecution. 1:11:40.680 --> 1:11:42.560 Oh, not long enough now. I just listened to the 1:11:42.560 --> 1:11:44.960 words you say, and then after a while I go, wait. 1:11:45.439 --> 1:11:49.280 Wait, what the prosecution offered Anew the opportunity to plead 1:11:49.479 --> 1:11:54.680 to manslaughter for a reduced sentence, but she refused, maintaining 1:11:54.760 --> 1:11:59.160 her innocence. While awaiting her second trial, Anew had a 1:11:59.280 --> 1:12:02.800 letter seized from her locker. It read, I've decided to 1:12:02.840 --> 1:12:05.519 write down how this happened to get it clear in 1:12:05.600 --> 1:12:09.040 my mind. Also, she went on to describe all of 1:12:09.080 --> 1:12:12.120 the events that led to Joe's death, starting with her 1:12:12.240 --> 1:12:14.840 and Martave going to the library to find the book 1:12:14.960 --> 1:12:18.479 on a Sister Dying. She said that she had initially 1:12:18.479 --> 1:12:21.519 intended to end her own life, but then after reading 1:12:21.560 --> 1:12:25.200 about partners were married who had married a couple of 1:12:25.280 --> 1:12:28.280 years after their loved ones had died of suicide, she 1:12:28.400 --> 1:12:31.080 decided it was only fair that Joe would die with her. 1:12:31.439 --> 1:12:33.599 So that's not your choice to be heartbroken. 1:12:33.600 --> 1:12:34.320 Blah blah blah. 1:12:34.320 --> 1:12:36.560 No, that is not your choice. 1:12:36.720 --> 1:12:40.120 From then, all she thought about was death. She wrote, 1:12:40.280 --> 1:12:42.320 Didn't I think at the time that these friends of 1:12:42.320 --> 1:12:45.080 mine were helping me to die? Didn't I stop and 1:12:45.160 --> 1:12:48.160 think that Joe was helping me to live? 1:12:49.240 --> 1:12:49.280 No? 1:12:50.360 --> 1:12:53.160 I felt compelled to do it because I thought everyone 1:12:53.320 --> 1:12:56.599 was against me and only cared if Joe died or not. 1:12:56.800 --> 1:13:01.360 No, sorry, I'm aware, and at the start you said 1:13:01.840 --> 1:13:04.880 you know compassion or understanding for her, and maybe we're 1:13:04.920 --> 1:13:08.480 getting there, but right now, quit with your poetic bullshit 1:13:09.600 --> 1:13:12.839 and now and just admit guilt. 1:13:13.360 --> 1:13:16.320 She goes on, Then, I wasn't sure whether to call 1:13:16.360 --> 1:13:20.080 the ambulance because Martavy said that if you call the ambulance, 1:13:20.320 --> 1:13:22.760 he will leave you and put you. 1:13:24.280 --> 1:13:25.720 Oh my God. 1:13:26.360 --> 1:13:29.120 In a letter addressed to her mother, a new wrote, 1:13:29.560 --> 1:13:31.840 the most wonderful man in the world loved me so much, 1:13:32.720 --> 1:13:37.240 would have made a perfect husband and father ruined, perfect 1:13:37.320 --> 1:13:41.519 life ruined. Now everyone is better off than me when 1:13:41.560 --> 1:13:44.479 I had it all. I bet everyone is laughing at 1:13:44.520 --> 1:13:47.840 me now because of my own artist stupidity and selfishness. 1:13:48.560 --> 1:13:51.360 You must start preparing for my death. Now my life 1:13:51.400 --> 1:13:54.280 is over. I made the wrong choice when so many 1:13:54.320 --> 1:13:57.960 others were available at the time, worked with Druggies rather 1:13:58.000 --> 1:14:01.240 than Joe. Should have protected him and worked with him. 1:14:01.760 --> 1:14:04.400 Now so many lives are ruined. 1:14:04.680 --> 1:14:08.000 She's written this letter to her mother mother more than 1:14:08.000 --> 1:14:10.040 a year after Yeah, Oh God. 1:14:10.280 --> 1:14:14.040 A new solo trial began in March nineteen ninety nine. 1:14:14.800 --> 1:14:16.479 It was a judge only trial. 1:14:17.400 --> 1:14:20.400 Her plays and. 1:14:20.439 --> 1:14:22.840 There's also no way, yeah, that you could have any 1:14:22.960 --> 1:14:25.280 kind of person in the camera that wouldn't have known 1:14:25.320 --> 1:14:29.759 about you exactly. Her plea was not guilty. The defense 1:14:29.880 --> 1:14:33.639 stated that she suffered from borderline personal disorder and severe 1:14:33.680 --> 1:14:37.200 oppression since her teens. She was in a delusional world 1:14:37.520 --> 1:14:39.960 where she truly believed that she was going to die 1:14:40.160 --> 1:14:44.759 from a disease. She was suffering from a depressive illness 1:14:44.800 --> 1:14:52.599 that culminated in Joe's death. Oh my God. Psychiatrist spoke 1:14:52.840 --> 1:14:56.599 of a personal disorder as exacerbated by her substance abuse 1:14:56.680 --> 1:15:00.920 and bolimia. If she had sought how help, it would 1:15:01.360 --> 1:15:05.439 have changed everything. The psychiatrist stated that Anew should be 1:15:05.479 --> 1:15:11.040 put into a facility, not to prison. The prosecution argued 1:15:11.080 --> 1:15:13.799 that a News actions were not impacted by her mental 1:15:13.840 --> 1:15:17.440 state and she was perfectly capable of making rational decisions. 1:15:18.200 --> 1:15:21.040 This was proven by her waiting to call an ambulance 1:15:21.800 --> 1:15:23.880 and by the time she did it it seemed as 1:15:23.920 --> 1:15:27.639 though she was hindering efforts to saves to save Joe's 1:15:27.720 --> 1:15:31.439 life by giving false information. They argued that she was 1:15:31.479 --> 1:15:34.680 depressed she would have actually killed herself after Joe not 1:15:34.800 --> 1:15:39.080 made not made her up, sorry, not made a decision 1:15:39.080 --> 1:15:43.880 for herself after that fact not to go. Her diara 1:15:44.000 --> 1:15:47.240 was also displayed, which was destroyed and pieced back together, 1:15:47.560 --> 1:15:51.880 which showed a vengeance against Joe. She also watched him die, 1:15:52.080 --> 1:15:57.760 which was an act of extraordinary cruelty. Various witnesses described 1:15:57.800 --> 1:16:02.880 Anew as psycho dramatic and appeared healthy, which is why 1:16:02.960 --> 1:16:06.400 no one questioned whether she was serious in killing herself, which. 1:16:06.240 --> 1:16:06.960 That's not fairver. 1:16:07.840 --> 1:16:12.040 A psychiatrist for the prosecution concluded that Anew was of 1:16:12.200 --> 1:16:16.200 sound mind when she killed Joe. Her problem was a 1:16:16.320 --> 1:16:19.720 lack of maturity, which impaired her from being able to 1:16:19.760 --> 1:16:23.640 control her moods or temper. She had actually called a 1:16:23.640 --> 1:16:26.360 friend to ask for help, which showed that she was 1:16:26.400 --> 1:16:30.000 trying to remove any guilt away from her and worried 1:16:30.200 --> 1:16:36.640 about the consequences. Justice Crispin acknowledged the profound challenges of 1:16:36.760 --> 1:16:40.960 the case. He was satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that she 1:16:41.080 --> 1:16:45.599 intended to murder Joe, but he also accepted that she 1:16:45.760 --> 1:16:51.280 was suffering from an abnormality of mind. It was impossible 1:16:51.320 --> 1:16:54.120 to determine what she was thinking at the time or 1:16:54.160 --> 1:16:59.640 what led her to take such actions. The case was 1:16:59.640 --> 1:17:04.120 absolutely massive camera crews and journalists were everywhere ready for 1:17:04.320 --> 1:17:08.400 the verdicts. The Chinque sat at the front of the 1:17:08.479 --> 1:17:12.120 courtroom awaiting the verdict. They did not miss a day 1:17:12.400 --> 1:17:18.080 of court. Maria was sobbing into a handkerchief. The family 1:17:18.080 --> 1:17:20.680 could not accept that so many people knew of a 1:17:20.800 --> 1:17:24.719 news claims and that no one, particularly at both dinner parties, 1:17:24.760 --> 1:17:31.879 did anything about it. Just as Crispin addressed anew directly, 1:17:33.040 --> 1:17:35.360 in the next few years, you will have to come 1:17:35.400 --> 1:17:37.880 to terms with the fact that you killed the man 1:17:37.960 --> 1:17:43.800 you love. You have caused immense pain. If you find 1:17:43.840 --> 1:17:47.000 the moral courage, you may be able to rebuild from 1:17:47.080 --> 1:17:51.559 this wreckage, to repay the trust people have put in you. 1:17:52.760 --> 1:17:57.400 He then declared her not guilty of Joe's murder, but 1:17:57.520 --> 1:18:04.200 guilty of manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility. Wow Aneur 1:18:04.360 --> 1:18:07.320 was sentenced to only ten years in prison, with a 1:18:07.360 --> 1:18:11.559 non parole period of four years backdated to the time 1:18:12.120 --> 1:18:16.439 of Joe's death. She would be eligible in two years. 1:18:18.040 --> 1:18:22.040 When Justice Crispin left the courtroom, Maria turned to Anneu 1:18:22.280 --> 1:18:28.559 and said, this is where you belong. You stay forever. 1:18:29.240 --> 1:18:34.040 Rod In how you bitch devil. She's a demon? My 1:18:34.200 --> 1:18:40.280 son that's all four years? How can you sleep at night? 1:18:41.360 --> 1:18:48.559 Four years? Is that all my son is worth? So sad, 1:18:48.760 --> 1:18:53.000 so sad. Maria told the journalists outside that Aneu should 1:18:53.040 --> 1:18:56.680 have been sentenced to death. It was widely believed that 1:18:56.720 --> 1:18:59.880 Anu had fooled the court into believing that she wasn't 1:19:00.240 --> 1:19:05.240 of sound mind. Joe Chinque was twenty six years old. 1:19:05.960 --> 1:19:08.599 He was looking forward to sharing his life with his girlfriend, 1:19:08.600 --> 1:19:12.639 a new singer. He had supported her and he stayed 1:19:12.640 --> 1:19:15.760 with her with all her ailments, real or not real. 1:19:17.240 --> 1:19:21.360 She herself called him the most wonderful man in the world. 1:19:22.160 --> 1:19:25.680 She was premeditated, she planned to kill him, and she 1:19:25.840 --> 1:19:33.360 was acquitted of murder for diminished responsibility. Six months later, 1:19:34.080 --> 1:19:39.320 Martivi Rau pled not guilty for Fuck's sake. The prosecution 1:19:39.520 --> 1:19:45.559 stated that she was criminally responsible for aiding Anew. She 1:19:45.680 --> 1:19:48.160 was fully aware of the plot to kill Joe and 1:19:48.280 --> 1:19:52.559 failed her duty of care. The prosecution believed that she 1:19:52.680 --> 1:19:55.599 was present when Anu put the sedatives in Joe's coffee 1:19:55.680 --> 1:19:59.680 or a hypnoal that morning at six am, but it 1:19:59.720 --> 1:20:02.680 could not be proven what time this all happened and 1:20:02.800 --> 1:20:07.200 when Joe was injected. When she saw Joe ill in 1:20:07.280 --> 1:20:10.120 his bedroom. She did not have a duty of care 1:20:10.640 --> 1:20:12.919 and she was a friend, what not a spouse? 1:20:13.760 --> 1:20:16.800 No no, no, no, no, no, no no no. 1:20:17.120 --> 1:20:21.240 The defense maintained that she had no more legal responsibility 1:20:21.560 --> 1:20:22.760 than a complete stranger. 1:20:23.000 --> 1:20:25.280 Yeah. Sorry, surely there's still a duty of care for 1:20:25.320 --> 1:20:28.000 a stranger. If you see someone with blue lips past out, 1:20:28.439 --> 1:20:29.479 do something about it. 1:20:29.760 --> 1:20:33.080 She was alarmingly passive in her friendship with Anew and 1:20:33.120 --> 1:20:36.400 went to unhealthy lengths to put her friend's needs ahead 1:20:36.479 --> 1:20:39.920 of her own. She had difficulty standing up for herself. 1:20:40.160 --> 1:20:43.720 She taught a classmate, I've got a friend who's suicidal. 1:20:44.880 --> 1:20:50.080 She smothers me. A prison welfare officer overheard Anew putting 1:20:50.080 --> 1:20:54.120 the pressure on Martivi about getting their stories straight. Martive 1:20:54.920 --> 1:20:59.040 was declared not guilty, fuck off of all charges. 1:20:59.400 --> 1:21:00.280 Fuck off. 1:21:00.720 --> 1:21:03.400 Although her story was suspicious, they could not prove that 1:21:03.479 --> 1:21:07.639 she shared a news criminal intent. Maria and Nino had 1:21:07.640 --> 1:21:10.600 to be escorted out of the court for their protesting 1:21:10.920 --> 1:21:14.600 about what had happened. Nino collapsed and was rushed to 1:21:14.680 --> 1:21:19.880 hospital with heart problems. Martivi was let off. She was 1:21:19.960 --> 1:21:21.200 now for just. 1:21:21.120 --> 1:21:22.960 Not guilty, completely just acquitted. 1:21:23.160 --> 1:21:26.000 Yeah, I was allowed to leave for sake. A new 1:21:26.120 --> 1:21:30.800 later said, it's my fault entirely. I was hysterical and 1:21:30.880 --> 1:21:34.200 she just loved me and wanted to help me. What 1:21:34.240 --> 1:21:37.320 would sending her to jail have really done? Would it 1:21:37.400 --> 1:21:39.920 have eased Maria and Nino's pain anymore? 1:21:40.120 --> 1:21:43.040 That's not the only point of a guilty verdict, That's 1:21:43.080 --> 1:21:48.280 not the only point of punishment and rehabilitation, of retribution. 1:21:48.360 --> 1:21:53.599 Having some sort of justice. It seemed this perpetuating sorrow 1:21:53.800 --> 1:21:57.519 on so many people. Her family would have suffered as 1:21:57.560 --> 1:22:01.280 my family suffered. I don't put any blame on martyv 1:22:02.280 --> 1:22:05.479 I Knew served her sentence in a maximum security prison, 1:22:05.960 --> 1:22:08.040 where she worked in a prison library and shoot at 1:22:08.040 --> 1:22:14.080 other inmates. She underwent psychotherapy and was prescribed for medication 1:22:14.200 --> 1:22:18.240 to treat depression, anxiety, and obsessed with combalsive disorder. She 1:22:18.320 --> 1:22:22.360 was later transferred and granted day release to the University 1:22:22.439 --> 1:22:25.200 of Sydney. In October two thousand and one, she was 1:22:25.240 --> 1:22:28.439 released on parole at the age of just twenty nine, 1:22:28.760 --> 1:22:32.719 two years old. Two years yeah, only a few years 1:22:32.840 --> 1:22:35.880 older than Joe was when his life was taken away 1:22:35.880 --> 1:22:38.800 from him. In two thousand and four, she breached her 1:22:38.840 --> 1:22:42.160 parole conditions for smoking cannabis and went back to prison 1:22:42.200 --> 1:22:46.880 for three months. In two thousand and nine, she was 1:22:46.880 --> 1:22:50.360 awarded a doctorate from the University of Sydney for a 1:22:50.439 --> 1:22:56.600 thesis offending Women toward a greater understanding of women's pathways 1:22:56.640 --> 1:23:01.519 into and out of crime in Australia. She has since 1:23:01.560 --> 1:23:04.120 admitted that she lied in nineteen ninety seven when she 1:23:04.160 --> 1:23:07.000 told a counselor that Joe had been abusive to her. 1:23:07.680 --> 1:23:10.920 Joe had expressed frustration with her, but he never indicated 1:23:10.960 --> 1:23:13.800 that he wanted to leave her. She had told him 1:23:13.880 --> 1:23:16.840 various times of her intention to take her own life, 1:23:17.200 --> 1:23:22.639 but he encouraged her to keep living. Then asked why 1:23:22.640 --> 1:23:25.760 she did it, she said, there's absolutely no legitimate or 1:23:25.840 --> 1:23:30.920 rational motivation at all. Martyve changed her name and moved 1:23:30.920 --> 1:23:34.519 to the United States with her husband and kids. She 1:23:34.640 --> 1:23:35.719 got to have a life. 1:23:36.000 --> 1:23:36.320 Yeah. 1:23:37.640 --> 1:23:39.160 A lot of the people who went to the party 1:23:39.200 --> 1:23:41.320 on those nights went on to finish their law degrees. 1:23:42.000 --> 1:23:45.479 The townhouse has since been demolished to make way for 1:23:45.560 --> 1:23:50.360 a new government housing project. Joe's childhood room remains untouched. 1:23:51.920 --> 1:23:56.800 The Chinquays are, of course still The Chinquas are of course, 1:23:56.840 --> 1:23:59.559 still perplexed as to why no one came to Joe's aid. 1:24:00.479 --> 1:24:02.160 If you see a dog on the street from a 1:24:02.200 --> 1:24:04.760 car accident, you call somebody to help the bloody dog. 1:24:04.800 --> 1:24:09.200 Her father, Nino said so his father, Nino said. Joe 1:24:09.280 --> 1:24:12.680 Chinkway's death has often been cited as a tragic example 1:24:13.120 --> 1:24:17.599 of the bystander effect, a social psychological claim where people 1:24:17.680 --> 1:24:20.839 are less likely to help someone if others are present, 1:24:21.160 --> 1:24:25.880 believing someone else will act. A new made a public 1:24:25.920 --> 1:24:29.120 apology to the Chinquei family on television a Current Affair 1:24:29.400 --> 1:24:33.120 in two thousand and seven scene, saying, there are many 1:24:33.200 --> 1:24:37.680 things people don't understand. There's a lot of things that 1:24:37.720 --> 1:24:41.080 have been overlooked. I was suffering from a very very 1:24:41.120 --> 1:24:44.680 severe mental illness of the time. If I could have 1:24:44.760 --> 1:24:47.679 listened to people and sought the right sort of mental help, 1:24:47.800 --> 1:24:50.280 this wouldn't have happened. I would like to say to 1:24:50.320 --> 1:24:54.559 Maria and Nino that I'm deeply, deeply sorry for what happened, 1:24:55.400 --> 1:24:58.040 and to that if I could, if there was any 1:24:58.040 --> 1:25:00.760 way I could turn back the clock, I would do 1:25:00.840 --> 1:25:05.280 so in a heartbeat. In the same episode, Maria rejected 1:25:05.280 --> 1:25:10.280 the apology, calling anew the devil and responding, don't tell 1:25:10.320 --> 1:25:12.840 me this bullshit. You have killed the most precious thing 1:25:12.840 --> 1:25:16.000 I had in my life. My first son, my firstborn, 1:25:16.439 --> 1:25:19.000 the one who was going to carry his grandfather's name, 1:25:19.360 --> 1:25:24.280 is not here anymore. Maria Chinque believes that Joe wasn't 1:25:24.360 --> 1:25:28.560 just betrayed by anew but also the entire justice system. 1:25:29.120 --> 1:25:33.120 In the book Joe's Hinque's Consolation, Helen Ghana goes to 1:25:33.200 --> 1:25:37.320 visit Justice Crispin, who presided over the case. Maria had 1:25:37.320 --> 1:25:39.479 called him all kinds of names and said that she 1:25:39.600 --> 1:25:43.000 hoped a child of his was murdered so he would understand. 1:25:44.280 --> 1:25:48.360 Justice Crispin understood her hurt and frustration. In fact, he 1:25:48.360 --> 1:25:52.280 had lost a child too, Oh God. Helen asked him 1:25:52.400 --> 1:25:57.360 about his lenient ruling in the case of Sing. He 1:25:57.479 --> 1:26:01.479 said both her parents were doctors. They were terrified about 1:26:01.479 --> 1:26:04.519 the way she was behaving. They lugged her to doctors 1:26:04.560 --> 1:26:08.439 and psychiatrists, and then twice tried to have her locked 1:26:08.520 --> 1:26:13.080 up as an involuntary patient. Imagine how frightened you'd have 1:26:13.160 --> 1:26:16.640 to be about your own child to want to do that. 1:26:18.439 --> 1:26:21.760 Justice Crispin also goes on to say about Martavi, I 1:26:21.800 --> 1:26:25.960 think Rau was very coerced as to what to do. 1:26:27.040 --> 1:26:34.120 She was paralyzed with indecision. I think Rau was very 1:26:34.160 --> 1:26:35.960 concerned as to what to do. I think it means 1:26:36.240 --> 1:26:39.840 she was paralyzed with indecision. Her friend was saying these 1:26:39.880 --> 1:26:43.160 things that were off the planet. Nobody else was taking 1:26:43.160 --> 1:26:47.360 it seriously. Should she take it seriously? What if she 1:26:47.360 --> 1:26:50.080 blew the whistle and rang the police and then it 1:26:50.120 --> 1:26:52.680 all turned out to be a hoax. 1:26:52.520 --> 1:26:53.960 That that doesn't matter. 1:26:54.760 --> 1:26:57.439 By the time of her release, Arne already had a 1:26:57.439 --> 1:27:00.000 boyfriend who she met during her trial. Back in nine 1:27:00.360 --> 1:27:03.880 ninety nine. She spent eighteen months at the remand Center, 1:27:05.000 --> 1:27:08.400 where male and female inmates were able to make contact. 1:27:08.840 --> 1:27:12.120 She had three romantic attachments in that time, but only 1:27:12.160 --> 1:27:15.000 one serious, who later went on to become her partner. 1:27:16.120 --> 1:27:19.120 After being released, they moved to Sydney together. I Knew 1:27:19.240 --> 1:27:22.759 managed to finish her PhD in prison and actually wanted 1:27:22.800 --> 1:27:26.439 to become a criminologist. I Knew attempted to make a 1:27:26.479 --> 1:27:30.160 documentary about prison and approach the founder of a victim 1:27:30.200 --> 1:27:34.320 support group called Enough Is Enough. The founder's response was 1:27:34.520 --> 1:27:37.360 that if she wanted to genuinely help people, yes, but 1:27:37.439 --> 1:27:39.960 if she wanted to make a film, then forget about it. 1:27:41.000 --> 1:27:42.360 If she just wanted to make a film and just 1:27:42.400 --> 1:27:45.280 forget about it, they never heard back from a new 1:27:46.320 --> 1:27:49.439 A few months later, a new spoker out about how 1:27:49.479 --> 1:27:52.639 annoyed she had been about the public mistreatment and how 1:27:52.680 --> 1:27:54.600 difficult she felt it was to get a job in 1:27:54.600 --> 1:27:57.920 a chosen field. Her boyfriend was quoted as saying she 1:27:58.120 --> 1:28:04.519 wasn't an angel, but has served her two years. In 1:28:04.560 --> 1:28:09.160 the book Joe Chinquay's Consolation by Helen Ghana, she starts 1:28:09.160 --> 1:28:12.280 out wanting to talk to to Martvi to get their 1:28:12.320 --> 1:28:16.400 sides of the story, but what she realizes is that 1:28:16.439 --> 1:28:20.360 she needed to get to dojo. She visited with his 1:28:20.400 --> 1:28:22.920 family so many times and learned not to sit in 1:28:22.960 --> 1:28:27.080 Joe's chair every time she visited that was his as 1:28:27.120 --> 1:28:29.800 if they were waiting for him to return home. They 1:28:29.800 --> 1:28:31.519 also had a photo of him in the kitchen, and 1:28:32.200 --> 1:28:35.639 when Halen would bring something along like a bottle of wine, 1:28:35.680 --> 1:28:38.720 it was placed next to Joe as if he was 1:28:38.760 --> 1:28:42.360 waiting for his house guest. I'd like to end today 1:28:42.400 --> 1:28:46.200 with Helen talking about sitting with Marie Chinkuey on the 1:28:46.200 --> 1:28:49.080 couch of their family home they're watching Joe at a 1:28:49.080 --> 1:28:54.599 wedding that he was seeing. He looks somehow different from 1:28:54.640 --> 1:28:58.320 his companions at the wedding, with his rather harsh haircut 1:28:58.600 --> 1:29:04.080 that swept any kind of mullet, bared his long, slender neck, 1:29:05.160 --> 1:29:09.200 and stripped his cheeks of side burns. How much of 1:29:09.240 --> 1:29:14.000 this was projecting with the knowledge I had of horrible fate. 1:29:15.280 --> 1:29:19.040 It was magic, thinking, sentimental. I tried to pull myself 1:29:19.120 --> 1:29:22.280 into line, but I wasn't the only person to be 1:29:22.320 --> 1:29:25.920 struck by Joe An a casual moment of proceedings with 1:29:26.000 --> 1:29:29.639 the guests were attacking the dessert and nothing for more 1:29:29.680 --> 1:29:32.639 was in progress, where children were tearing about the dance 1:29:32.680 --> 1:29:35.719 floor among the drifting balloons, and Joe was just standing 1:29:35.760 --> 1:29:40.680 there alone behind the long bridle table, smiling benignly and 1:29:40.720 --> 1:29:46.280 looking around him with a calm, bright curiosity. The camera 1:29:46.360 --> 1:29:49.800 zoomed in discreetly and framed him front m head and 1:29:49.840 --> 1:29:55.000 shoulders against the dark curtain. It had no reason to 1:29:55.040 --> 1:29:57.880 single him out in that moment, let alone focus on 1:29:57.920 --> 1:30:01.120 his agreeable face, but it found it, and it dwelt 1:30:01.160 --> 1:30:05.840 on him. It lingered intimately and without He's ever realizing 1:30:06.479 --> 1:30:10.559 for a good seven or eight seconds. His face was 1:30:10.640 --> 1:30:15.559 fine and sensitive, still faintly blurred look, with youth not 1:30:15.640 --> 1:30:18.800 yet said in the hard lines of manhood. He looked 1:30:18.840 --> 1:30:22.400 like a man who was lightly poised on the very 1:30:22.520 --> 1:30:26.240 rim of the world he came from. I sat on 1:30:26.280 --> 1:30:29.040 his parents couch and watched him with my heart in 1:30:29.080 --> 1:30:35.200 my mouth. Maria too, ceased her murmured commentary. We gazed 1:30:35.240 --> 1:30:39.880 in silence on our undefended son. That g is a 1:30:39.920 --> 1:30:42.040 devastating case of jo chinqua. 1:30:46.640 --> 1:30:52.200 Thanks, I hate it. Oh my god, We've never cried 1:30:52.240 --> 1:30:55.679 this much. Do you think we should take a break 1:30:55.720 --> 1:31:05.400 and come back and Sammy, thank you so much for 1:31:05.439 --> 1:31:08.479 telling that story. Jesus Christ, what a roller coaster the motion. 1:31:08.800 --> 1:31:10.320 We just take kind of a big break just then. 1:31:10.520 --> 1:31:12.920 Yea, we just sat and cried a lot and hugged 1:31:13.040 --> 1:31:14.840 and then discussed it a bit. 1:31:14.920 --> 1:31:16.960 And you sent me a photo that you took of 1:31:17.000 --> 1:31:21.760 digs during during that which actually bright my day. It is. 1:31:21.800 --> 1:31:24.200 It is such a I highly recommend the book. 1:31:24.439 --> 1:31:27.400 I just asked you literally as you were pressing record, 1:31:27.439 --> 1:31:29.280 did you cry while you were reading that or was 1:31:29.320 --> 1:31:31.800 it just because you were kind of like saying it 1:31:31.800 --> 1:31:34.800 all together as one story? And please repeat your I did. 1:31:34.840 --> 1:31:36.160 I absolutely cried during it. 1:31:36.160 --> 1:31:38.840 It is the words were I cried a lot, cried 1:31:38.880 --> 1:31:39.120 a lot. 1:31:39.800 --> 1:31:42.080 It's also I was crying on the train when they read, 1:31:42.720 --> 1:31:46.560 which isn't a good look. But it is so beautiful. 1:31:46.920 --> 1:31:49.000 I think my connection to it, other than it is 1:31:49.080 --> 1:31:51.280 just a it is just a horrible story. Is my brother. 1:31:51.680 --> 1:31:55.240 So he had drug psychosis from a young young age 1:31:55.600 --> 1:31:58.040 and he would do things like he became a very 1:31:58.120 --> 1:32:00.960 violent person. We had all the restrained orders on him. 1:32:01.439 --> 1:32:04.880 He became someone that I didn't know any more, didn't recognize, 1:32:04.960 --> 1:32:06.400 and I grew up with that from the age of 1:32:06.400 --> 1:32:08.479 about fifteen. That was my life, and I had all 1:32:08.479 --> 1:32:11.360 these reading orders with my brother. I kind of understood 1:32:11.800 --> 1:32:14.439 how someone can fall through the cracks quite easily. And 1:32:14.520 --> 1:32:16.360 I don't think there's a lot of support for mental 1:32:16.400 --> 1:32:19.720 health in Australia. I also find it so disappointing that 1:32:19.840 --> 1:32:23.640 you cannot get someone there are so many you have 1:32:23.680 --> 1:32:26.920 to be assessed by a cat team, and my brother 1:32:27.000 --> 1:32:30.600 was quite charming when it came to it, And I 1:32:30.640 --> 1:32:32.640 think there are just there's so much wrong with the 1:32:33.320 --> 1:32:35.960 legal system, There is so much wrong with the mental 1:32:35.960 --> 1:32:40.839 health system, and you know, throughout this book, the line 1:32:41.280 --> 1:32:46.599 is repeated over and over again, no matter what, Joe 1:32:46.720 --> 1:32:51.639 Chinkway is dead. And that line is repeated fifty times 1:32:51.680 --> 1:32:54.120 throughout the book, and she talks to every single person. 1:32:54.160 --> 1:32:58.000 Then she goes, Joe Chinkway is dead, and that is 1:32:58.040 --> 1:33:01.679 what the book should be called, because it is just yeah, 1:33:01.840 --> 1:33:06.920 but a young man who everyone loved, who. 1:33:07.920 --> 1:33:09.559 Didn't do anything, to do. 1:33:09.720 --> 1:33:13.639 Anything, and his mum was you know, called him JOSEPPI 1:33:13.840 --> 1:33:18.160 to follow on you know, his grandfather's footsteps. It is. 1:33:18.439 --> 1:33:21.360 It's so heartbreaking a case and our tickes come on. 1:33:21.439 --> 1:33:22.400 Dis just come to. 1:33:23.840 --> 1:33:31.599 Kisses. But dear, well, yeah, but it is so yeah, 1:33:31.600 --> 1:33:34.920 he's very shy, digs never that in his love. But 1:33:34.960 --> 1:33:37.639 it is it is so sad because you you look 1:33:37.640 --> 1:33:41.400 at these people and you go even the people that 1:33:41.520 --> 1:33:44.680 went to the dinners even like I just don't understand. 1:33:45.120 --> 1:33:48.479 I can't understand, like you said during it, like if 1:33:48.520 --> 1:33:51.799 you were invited to a dinner like that, you would 1:33:52.400 --> 1:33:55.920 if you don't know someone, of course you would say 1:33:56.400 --> 1:33:58.200 what is going on and understand what's happening. 1:33:58.720 --> 1:34:01.160 I'd tell people I wouldn't go to the dinner, but 1:34:01.160 --> 1:34:04.200 I would also then tell people what was said and 1:34:04.360 --> 1:34:07.519 report that, like, I'm quite common, quite confident. It's very 1:34:07.560 --> 1:34:09.000 easy to say I would have should have cut her. 1:34:09.200 --> 1:34:12.800 I really feel quite confident I would yeah, no, I'm 1:34:12.840 --> 1:34:14.920 not coming to that dinner, and I would call authorities 1:34:15.120 --> 1:34:18.280 like I would feel quite confident. Yeah, yeah, like I'm 1:34:18.280 --> 1:34:21.800 a big dipper dubba though parently from way back. 1:34:22.040 --> 1:34:25.040 Yeah, do you ever hear that what you used to say? 1:34:25.240 --> 1:34:26.719 Dip dubbers with chocolate nappies. 1:34:26.760 --> 1:34:27.400 That's disgusting. 1:34:27.479 --> 1:34:32.080 Yeah, chocolate chocolate nappy What. 1:34:32.040 --> 1:34:32.679 Does that mean? 1:34:33.200 --> 1:34:36.040 I think they put themselves and then everyone else will go, 1:34:36.160 --> 1:34:37.720 oh what, I don't want to be one of them. 1:34:37.760 --> 1:34:40.360 Then I'll keep this secret with myself. 1:34:40.720 --> 1:34:44.320 No no secret secrets. And if one secret secrets hurt. 1:34:44.160 --> 1:34:48.040 Someone, that's actually true. And also dubbers chocolate no no, no, 1:34:48.200 --> 1:34:52.080 take that, but it is. I don't know. I found 1:34:52.120 --> 1:34:57.080 the whole book so interesting. So Helen Ghana wrote a 1:34:58.400 --> 1:35:01.160 Monkey Grip and this it was her first as I know, 1:35:01.560 --> 1:35:06.559 her first true crime, and it really made her a 1:35:06.800 --> 1:35:09.719 national bestseller because it was like, how do you write 1:35:09.720 --> 1:35:11.800 about this in a way? You know, she talks about 1:35:11.800 --> 1:35:15.599 her own divorce during this she wow, you know, having 1:35:15.680 --> 1:35:18.519 an abortion. She talks there is so much in here 1:35:18.560 --> 1:35:21.040 that you go, oh wow, So she can at the time, 1:35:21.080 --> 1:35:25.320 you know, when if that story about And I kind 1:35:25.320 --> 1:35:28.280 of canvas this by saying, if all of this is true, 1:35:28.320 --> 1:35:32.320 when when a new terminated her pregnancy, then Helen talks 1:35:32.320 --> 1:35:35.120 about that, and she has a way of connecting with people. 1:35:36.080 --> 1:35:39.280 Then obviously she wrote this House of Grief, which catapulted her, 1:35:39.439 --> 1:35:43.040 catapulted her into the worldwide stage like as a as 1:35:43.080 --> 1:35:46.120 this this incredible, incredible writer. But I went in to 1:35:46.240 --> 1:35:50.960 get the Mushroom cook Book and I came out with this, 1:35:51.160 --> 1:35:52.680 and I mean I bought both, but it was just 1:35:52.720 --> 1:35:57.120 like so interested in going and yeah, and I just 1:35:57.280 --> 1:35:59.000 looked at it and when you know, it's got a 1:35:59.040 --> 1:36:01.160 green apple on the front cover like you said at 1:36:01.160 --> 1:36:04.560 the start, and I just went, what is this and 1:36:04.880 --> 1:36:06.920 what is this story? And it wasn't you know, I'm 1:36:06.920 --> 1:36:10.400 not a big I mean I really I am a 1:36:10.439 --> 1:36:13.280 big true crime fanatic, but I don't source it out 1:36:13.439 --> 1:36:18.040 and sit and devoured and this was just fascinating and 1:36:18.120 --> 1:36:19.840 like people looking at this book, we'll just go what 1:36:20.200 --> 1:36:23.679 is that? Oh? Do you ever hear about the story. 1:36:23.760 --> 1:36:25.720 Some people had heard of the story, but a lot 1:36:25.720 --> 1:36:29.200 of people didn't know that Martave left and. 1:36:29.320 --> 1:36:30.800 Oh my god, I've got so many things on the. 1:36:30.760 --> 1:36:33.519 Country, and also that a new only got you know, 1:36:33.640 --> 1:36:34.599 in the end two years. 1:36:34.760 --> 1:36:36.080 Okay, I want to get to that. First of all, 1:36:36.080 --> 1:36:38.080 I want to talk about the book. Why do you 1:36:38.160 --> 1:36:42.240 think it's titled Joe Chinkwa's Consolation? And why has got 1:36:42.240 --> 1:36:43.360 the green apple on the front? 1:36:44.840 --> 1:36:48.000 I kind of feel that that was the poison apple, aha, 1:36:48.080 --> 1:36:51.800 that was given to him a consolation. I don't really know. 1:36:51.920 --> 1:36:53.240 Why do you think it's called I don't know. 1:36:53.280 --> 1:36:56.160 I don't like the title. No, I don't like it. 1:36:56.280 --> 1:36:58.200 What does the world? What's the definition of consolation? 1:36:59.320 --> 1:36:59.720 Look it up? 1:37:00.080 --> 1:37:03.280 It up right, because, yeah, I find the title. I 1:37:03.320 --> 1:37:05.479 think it should have been called in Sorry, Helen's is 1:37:05.520 --> 1:37:10.720 just one note, Hell's health belt. I think Joe Joe 1:37:10.800 --> 1:37:12.880 Chinkway's Dead would have been. It would have been a 1:37:12.880 --> 1:37:14.920 great title. But I wonder why she chose. 1:37:15.920 --> 1:37:19.000 I don't don't I'll look up the actual definition. 1:37:19.800 --> 1:37:23.559 I don't like. 1:37:23.560 --> 1:37:27.479 Great chick, good right, good right, great chick? Okay, So 1:37:27.960 --> 1:37:31.880 the comfort received by a person after a loss or disappointment. 1:37:33.479 --> 1:37:37.240 The example sentence is there was a consolation in knowing 1:37:37.240 --> 1:37:42.880 that others were worse off. Wow. Yeah, yeah, I just 1:37:43.560 --> 1:37:46.360 it's like, you know, a consolation prize where you go, oh, sorry, 1:37:46.400 --> 1:37:48.439 you didn't get this, but here's a consolation prize. To me, 1:37:49.920 --> 1:37:52.080 That's why I don't like that title. It makes it 1:37:52.120 --> 1:37:55.479 feel like there's something that's okay about it. 1:37:55.560 --> 1:37:59.719 Yeah. Yeah, maybe in a way that would sounds bizarre. 1:38:00.320 --> 1:38:00.439 No. 1:38:00.560 --> 1:38:06.880 I think maybe the consolation is that she received the help. 1:38:07.240 --> 1:38:08.400 I don't know. I don't know. 1:38:08.800 --> 1:38:13.080 Well, the tag is a true story of death, grief, 1:38:13.160 --> 1:38:13.760 and the law. 1:38:15.360 --> 1:38:18.840 Yeah, I'm really fascinated about that title. I'm a real nerd. 1:38:18.880 --> 1:38:20.760 I think I've said this on him before. Whenever I 1:38:20.840 --> 1:38:25.240 read or watch something that I really like or really hate, 1:38:25.760 --> 1:38:28.800 I go into a deep dive of reviews and interviews 1:38:28.840 --> 1:38:31.640 with the authors or the writers. And I know that 1:38:31.680 --> 1:38:33.080 I'm going to do that as soon as I leave here. 1:38:33.360 --> 1:38:34.920 What I love the most about this is that it 1:38:35.000 --> 1:38:37.600 ends with a photo of Joe, which is lovely, so 1:38:37.680 --> 1:38:39.200 you can kind of see the person that he was, 1:38:39.360 --> 1:38:41.599 and I, you know, I just go oh wow, Like 1:38:41.680 --> 1:38:45.080 he was so young, he was such a beautiful looking person. 1:38:45.200 --> 1:38:47.960 He had just a face that you can imagine Maria like, 1:38:48.000 --> 1:38:51.200 you know, like just loving and being obsessed with and 1:38:51.240 --> 1:38:57.120 grabbing his face. That's what I felt. And you can 1:38:57.160 --> 1:38:59.639 kind of understand how, you know, a family that came 1:38:59.640 --> 1:39:03.800 to us Aralia for a better life would look at 1:39:03.800 --> 1:39:07.519 this and go this is criminal and they and also 1:39:07.560 --> 1:39:11.080 I think the big thing that really struck me was 1:39:11.360 --> 1:39:16.360 in grief. These this family are going through this unspeakable grief. 1:39:17.120 --> 1:39:20.120 They ran out of money because because they were going 1:39:20.120 --> 1:39:22.479 to Canberra, and they went to every single day of 1:39:22.520 --> 1:39:24.640 the trial and would take their own lunch and they 1:39:24.640 --> 1:39:26.800 would sit in the park and Alen Ghan would walk 1:39:26.800 --> 1:39:29.200 by and sit with him in the park. And there 1:39:29.240 --> 1:39:31.559 was a police officer that was lovely to them that 1:39:31.600 --> 1:39:34.160 would just chat with them every day and would drive 1:39:34.200 --> 1:39:36.720 up to Newcastle to talk to them and they would 1:39:36.960 --> 1:39:39.200 I don't know that. I think a lot of the time, 1:39:40.000 --> 1:39:42.720 when people get really sick or people you know, go 1:39:42.800 --> 1:39:45.320 through something like this, you don't think about that. They 1:39:45.360 --> 1:39:48.360 can't work, they can't do anything there. They just got 1:39:48.360 --> 1:39:50.760 this huge cost of living and they're having to do 1:39:50.840 --> 1:39:53.160 all this stuff. I don't know, it just it just 1:39:53.200 --> 1:39:55.519 seems wild to me that this you don't think about 1:39:55.640 --> 1:39:58.960 these poor people went along to everything, and then they. 1:39:58.760 --> 1:40:01.439 Didn't do anything. Joe didn't do anything to deserve it. 1:40:01.640 --> 1:40:04.200 They didn't do anything to deserve it either, and they've 1:40:04.240 --> 1:40:08.559 got this life sentence that she doesn't have and who 1:40:08.560 --> 1:40:11.040 doesn't have, Okay, which brings me to talk about that. 1:40:11.680 --> 1:40:14.960 What do you think about first of all, put aside 1:40:15.000 --> 1:40:18.240 the sentence, what do you think about the guilty of 1:40:18.320 --> 1:40:22.880 manslaughter but not of murder verdict? I don't know. 1:40:23.000 --> 1:40:25.559 I feel like there was a lot of intent. I 1:40:25.560 --> 1:40:28.960 feel like it was premeditated. I feel like it because 1:40:28.960 --> 1:40:32.120 of the first party Monday. You have a week to 1:40:32.160 --> 1:40:35.639 think about it. Like, I feel like it was murder 1:40:36.200 --> 1:40:39.280 and I but I also know that she didn't have 1:40:39.360 --> 1:40:42.520 I know, the mental stability. 1:40:41.600 --> 1:40:45.320 And that's something that yeah, I you know, I'm touching 1:40:45.320 --> 1:40:52.880 what as I say this, don't have lived experience with 1:40:53.000 --> 1:40:58.360 someone with reduced mental capacity like that, or you know, 1:41:01.240 --> 1:41:03.200 I don't know that. I don't know what that's like 1:41:03.320 --> 1:41:06.040 to be in or to be around, which I'm very 1:41:06.040 --> 1:41:11.680 grateful for. But it's very hard from my privileged perspective 1:41:12.320 --> 1:41:18.400 to understand or to agree that there's no criminal capacity. 1:41:18.560 --> 1:41:20.800 Well sorry, not no criminal capacity. She was still found 1:41:20.800 --> 1:41:27.760 guilty of manslaughter, But the criminal diminishment of that I 1:41:28.360 --> 1:41:30.599 find really hard to understand. 1:41:32.680 --> 1:41:35.680 Isn't there is there a minimum term for manslaughter. 1:41:35.800 --> 1:41:38.519 There's no minimum term for anything. There's only maximum terms 1:41:38.560 --> 1:41:41.439 for things. But yeah, then that follows on to the 1:41:41.479 --> 1:41:45.360 next question, is the four years with two years, four years, 1:41:45.960 --> 1:41:50.920 four years minimum sentence, that's fucking nothing. 1:41:51.760 --> 1:41:53.759 At the time of Joe's death. I don't really understand 1:41:53.760 --> 1:41:55.400 that because she's a man center for that. 1:41:55.439 --> 1:41:58.599 Time, but because she was incarcerated for the whole time. 1:41:58.760 --> 1:42:02.840 It's always with time served. A sentence is never from 1:42:02.880 --> 1:42:05.600 the day you are sentenced if you've been incarcerated for 1:42:05.680 --> 1:42:09.040 that whole time. So she did spend four years in 1:42:09.120 --> 1:42:10.560 jail essentially. 1:42:11.560 --> 1:42:15.200 But so too there a man center and then romance. 1:42:14.920 --> 1:42:18.519 Center is jail, and that is arguably worse. A lot 1:42:18.560 --> 1:42:24.000 of people say that's worse than the prison and everything, 1:42:24.000 --> 1:42:26.080 But then you know you've also gone on to say 1:42:26.120 --> 1:42:28.080 she found a lovely boyfriend there too. 1:42:28.479 --> 1:42:30.720 People, I think a couple of relationships. What do you 1:42:30.720 --> 1:42:33.479 think you think? Yeah, obviously that she should be that 1:42:33.560 --> 1:42:34.800 she should have been tried for murder. 1:42:36.040 --> 1:42:40.160 Yeah, look, I don't know if I disagree, even on 1:42:40.200 --> 1:42:45.760 the on the finding of it being man's sort rather 1:42:45.840 --> 1:42:49.439 than murder. But I think she should have got whatever 1:42:49.520 --> 1:42:54.800 the maximum penalty is for maximum sentences for manswater. I 1:42:54.840 --> 1:42:58.560 cannot and do not agree with the four years. 1:42:58.240 --> 1:43:00.600 Minimum, and I don't agree with might have be just 1:43:00.600 --> 1:43:01.120 getting off. 1:43:01.760 --> 1:43:03.439 Oh my god. Okay, then that brings me to my 1:43:03.520 --> 1:43:05.040 last part, and the reason I left that to last 1:43:05.120 --> 1:43:08.360 is because I'm sorry. In my humble opinion, that is 1:43:08.520 --> 1:43:16.439 fucked to me. She is potentially the guiltiest or as guilty. No, 1:43:16.479 --> 1:43:20.439 I think, I mean my opinion, she's the most guilty. 1:43:20.600 --> 1:43:25.080 She wasn't mentally incapacitated. She wasn't she didn't have psychosis, 1:43:25.080 --> 1:43:29.000 borderline personality disorder anything she says she was. 1:43:29.680 --> 1:43:29.760 No. 1:43:29.800 --> 1:43:31.839 I think he used the word coorse but then actually 1:43:31.840 --> 1:43:35.160 corrected that she wasn't like under course of control by it. 1:43:35.200 --> 1:43:38.200 She just didn't know what to do. Like sorry, that's 1:43:38.200 --> 1:43:42.080 not a defense in my mind, that's I think that's fucked. 1:43:42.400 --> 1:43:44.719 That person is guilty of murder at the very least 1:43:44.760 --> 1:43:47.360 man's order. We didn't have murder in the first to 1:43:47.560 --> 1:43:50.840 murder in the second degree like America does. This is 1:43:50.840 --> 1:43:52.920 probably the only case I've ever thought and maybe we 1:43:53.000 --> 1:43:55.440 need that. So I think that's murder in the second degree. 1:43:56.000 --> 1:43:59.559 I cannot believe she was entirely acquitted. She's married and 1:43:59.560 --> 1:44:02.519 has a fan. I mean, that's not to say anyone 1:44:03.200 --> 1:44:04.960 after doing their time can go on and have a 1:44:05.000 --> 1:44:07.280 wonderful life and marry and have a family. That's not 1:44:07.320 --> 1:44:09.120 to take that away from her, but that she's been 1:44:09.160 --> 1:44:14.799 acquitted and she's never she's never had. 1:44:14.360 --> 1:44:18.120 I know, justice, I know, And what I kind of 1:44:19.600 --> 1:44:21.200 in the in the book, what I what I found 1:44:21.240 --> 1:44:25.200 really difficult was Helen Ganna goes to talk to and 1:44:25.240 --> 1:44:28.760 who his dad And it is really heartbreaking, it is, 1:44:28.800 --> 1:44:33.200 you know, and he's turning up going oh, Marie Chino 1:44:33.280 --> 1:44:35.519 won't look at me and everything, and going yeah, of course, 1:44:35.600 --> 1:44:36.919 but these people are human. 1:44:36.960 --> 1:44:39.200 You know, yes, And that is really sad too. It's 1:44:39.240 --> 1:44:43.640 not the parents fault. I understand being mad a new 1:44:43.840 --> 1:44:47.000 and mar Devi, but obviously not the parents. But then 1:44:47.040 --> 1:44:49.600 of course I can understand, well I can't understand, but 1:44:49.640 --> 1:44:52.080 I can imagine you wouldn't want to look at anyone 1:44:52.080 --> 1:44:54.639 from their camp at all. And oh god, the whole 1:44:54.680 --> 1:44:59.920 thing is just heartbreaking. What a terrible waste of. 1:45:00.720 --> 1:45:06.240 Life, lives yeah. Yeah, well, well I think I think, 1:45:06.360 --> 1:45:09.439 you know, there are a lot of people who have 1:45:09.520 --> 1:45:10.280 been hurt by. 1:45:10.120 --> 1:45:14.280 This, but there has been lost. 1:45:13.880 --> 1:45:19.600 Yeah. Yeah, and I found I found the letter that 1:45:19.680 --> 1:45:22.960 a new wrote to her mum really interesting. Yeah, because 1:45:23.080 --> 1:45:25.240 it says I'm completely guilty of what I did. I 1:45:25.280 --> 1:45:26.160 don't know why I did it. 1:45:26.240 --> 1:45:28.640 Yeah, okay, Devil's advocate. That can be a bit of 1:45:28.720 --> 1:45:30.920 woe is me? Feel sorry for me because a year 1:45:31.000 --> 1:45:33.280 later and I want to have a diminished responsibility? 1:45:33.880 --> 1:45:36.040 I do, I do wonder you know how much of 1:45:36.080 --> 1:45:39.200 it was her going I'm going to act like I'm 1:45:39.240 --> 1:45:40.679 mad too, Yeah, I don't. 1:45:40.960 --> 1:45:43.920 You just don't know diminished responsibility for a number of reasons. 1:45:44.080 --> 1:45:45.960 I'm going to act like this, or I'm going to go, 1:45:46.120 --> 1:45:49.360 oh I'm sad, I might be found guilty. I'll say, oh, 1:45:49.400 --> 1:45:52.120 he didn't deserve this, he was wonderful. I'm the one 1:45:52.120 --> 1:45:52.880 that should have gone. 1:45:53.080 --> 1:45:53.320 Yeah. 1:45:53.360 --> 1:45:55.439 I feel a little bit like getting out my mini violin? 1:45:55.720 --> 1:45:58.000 Is it only dimished and you don't have one? Is 1:45:58.040 --> 1:46:01.960 the only diminished responsibility in Australia? Is that what it's called? Everywhere? 1:46:02.160 --> 1:46:02.280 Is it? 1:46:03.000 --> 1:46:06.559 Yeah? Because there's another term for it where I'm digs 1:46:06.680 --> 1:46:10.240 just fun. Didn't he said? 1:46:10.040 --> 1:46:14.040 He didn't say he didn't because he's sleeping and I'm 1:46:14.160 --> 1:46:17.719 upset enough now I'm also choking. 1:46:18.040 --> 1:46:18.640 She's yelling at you. 1:46:19.520 --> 1:46:26.200 He smells like he's wearing a chocolates. 1:46:23.560 --> 1:46:24.320 You're a dipper. 1:46:25.800 --> 1:46:29.040 Because he's a Hey, can we go? 1:46:29.160 --> 1:46:31.720 Before we end today's can we go? Can we go? 1:46:32.320 --> 1:46:35.160 We've had so many, so many messages about the Fred 1:46:35.200 --> 1:46:38.840 and Rose West episode. People have absolutely devoured that. I 1:46:38.880 --> 1:46:40.799 know a lot of people listen to it in one city. 1:46:40.960 --> 1:46:43.200 I know, and God love you all. But also I'm 1:46:43.240 --> 1:46:46.000 really mad at you all for all going yay two 1:46:46.080 --> 1:46:47.440 and a half of our episode. 1:46:47.880 --> 1:46:49.160 It was so much work. 1:46:49.760 --> 1:46:50.800 I love you all so much. 1:46:50.840 --> 1:46:54.320 But let us rest. Look, we're going to go to 1:46:54.400 --> 1:46:57.800 some letters. So this one comes from Shanna, our mail bag. 1:46:58.120 --> 1:47:00.400 If you want to leave us and internet letter, you 1:47:00.439 --> 1:47:02.960 can Sammy at justinother company, dot com dot au. 1:47:03.040 --> 1:47:05.000 We'll follow us on Instagram. You can send us message 1:47:05.080 --> 1:47:07.080 there at just another podcast. 1:47:07.960 --> 1:47:09.640 Come on, you can do it. You can do it. 1:47:09.680 --> 1:47:10.240 You can do it. 1:47:10.479 --> 1:47:12.080 Not another crime focus. 1:47:12.200 --> 1:47:15.559 Yeah, Also you can leave as a voicemail. All the 1:47:15.600 --> 1:47:17.839 links are below. We call the website to speak pipe, 1:47:17.880 --> 1:47:20.160 but we're going to be here through the Christmas and 1:47:20.200 --> 1:47:22.880 holiday periods and we would absolutely love to hear from 1:47:22.880 --> 1:47:24.840 you during that time. We're going to keep you company, 1:47:24.880 --> 1:47:27.599 so why don't you keep us company as well. This 1:47:27.640 --> 1:47:30.160 is from Shanna. Hey guys, I just finished the Fred 1:47:30.160 --> 1:47:33.760 and Rose West episode. Oh wow. I had to stop 1:47:33.800 --> 1:47:35.719 a few times to get through it, but I made 1:47:35.720 --> 1:47:39.479 it to the end. I'm from England and neew of them, 1:47:39.520 --> 1:47:41.799 but I was like five when all of this happened, 1:47:42.080 --> 1:47:45.880 so didn't really know any of the details. On a 1:47:45.960 --> 1:47:49.880 different note and not true crime related, Georgia, I need 1:47:49.960 --> 1:47:54.080 recommendations for shows to see in London please. I am 1:47:54.320 --> 1:47:56.400 heading back home to England for the first time in 1:47:56.520 --> 1:48:00.160 nine years on Saturday and staying in London for a 1:48:00.240 --> 1:48:03.040 few days. I need to know what is good, so 1:48:03.479 --> 1:48:07.800 please let me know. As always love the podcast Heaps. 1:48:08.120 --> 1:48:10.679 You guys are awesome. Have a beautiful afternoon. 1:48:11.320 --> 1:48:14.160 Oh my god. Thanks Shanna. Sammy please send me email 1:48:14.160 --> 1:48:16.960 address so I can email her before because if she's 1:48:16.960 --> 1:48:19.000 going on Saturday, this episode doesn't come out to Monday, 1:48:19.200 --> 1:48:23.719 so I'll email you before anyone else who's interested. Lamey's 1:48:23.760 --> 1:48:27.080 on the West End always it's like one of the 1:48:27.160 --> 1:48:30.080 longest running I think maybe the longest running after Fantom 1:48:30.240 --> 1:48:34.720 finished up there. Yeah that always. I think six is 1:48:34.760 --> 1:48:38.000 still playing there. That's great, it's quick and fun. 1:48:38.160 --> 1:48:39.200 Yeah, funny. 1:48:40.120 --> 1:48:41.760 Trying to think of what else is playing there at 1:48:41.800 --> 1:48:45.479 the moment. Bless o cal and SEENI but I would 1:48:45.600 --> 1:48:50.000 like to I apologize. I've been to Broadway twice in 1:48:50.000 --> 1:48:51.960 the last year, but not the West End, so I've 1:48:52.000 --> 1:48:54.200 got to know what else. Oh, Operation mince Meat? Great? 1:48:54.360 --> 1:48:57.840 Great, right, Operation mince Meat? Yes, okay, well, yeah, there's 1:48:57.840 --> 1:49:01.519 some great options there and so yeah, so glad that 1:49:01.560 --> 1:49:05.240 you enjoyed the Fred and Rose Rose West episode. Not enjoyed, 1:49:05.240 --> 1:49:07.879 but you know, but I found it really interesting because 1:49:08.360 --> 1:49:09.840 you did it in a really in depth way. A 1:49:09.840 --> 1:49:13.720 lot of people are talking about how how the documentary 1:49:13.840 --> 1:49:15.439 did it in a different way, and this was good 1:49:15.439 --> 1:49:18.000 to hear kind of the full story, even if people 1:49:18.080 --> 1:49:18.960 knew this before. Oh. 1:49:19.000 --> 1:49:21.640 Thanks, that's really nice as well, because I even said 1:49:21.800 --> 1:49:25.599 in the episode like it wasn't really in that in 1:49:25.640 --> 1:49:28.639 depth because I didn't go into any of the heinous 1:49:28.640 --> 1:49:29.439 sexual abuse. 1:49:29.600 --> 1:49:30.240 Yeah, well it was. 1:49:30.320 --> 1:49:32.760 I didn't want to, but it was in Yeah. Yeah, 1:49:32.880 --> 1:49:35.599 there's even obviously more to it than that. But you're right, 1:49:35.640 --> 1:49:39.200 the docos just kind of goes into kind of starts 1:49:39.240 --> 1:49:41.479 with an assumption that you. 1:49:41.479 --> 1:49:44.720 Know, yeah, yeah, exactly, which is always hard for a 1:49:44.760 --> 1:49:48.320 documentary like I think the John Benet Ramsey wanted. Netflix 1:49:48.360 --> 1:49:51.320 did that as well, and sometimes you go, Okay, well 1:49:51.360 --> 1:49:53.160 we don't know what if we don't know much about it. 1:49:53.200 --> 1:49:55.720 Sammy, that's why people need to listen to this podcast, right, 1:49:55.840 --> 1:49:59.519 people that they get the background story and that's how 1:49:59.520 --> 1:50:00.439 they fallen love. 1:50:00.320 --> 1:50:02.360 With us, fall in love with us and. 1:50:03.960 --> 1:50:06.759 He perform out of Love with him for the moment. 1:50:06.880 --> 1:50:09.960 Also, there was someone who commented, Joe Turner who's been. 1:50:09.920 --> 1:50:15.759 On the Yes, oh my god, so Joe Turner longtime 1:50:15.800 --> 1:50:19.040 listeners will recognize his name or if you don't, please 1:50:19.080 --> 1:50:22.639 go back and listen. Sammy did a one on one 1:50:23.160 --> 1:50:26.280 Thursday Treat episode with him about the Danie La Plant story. 1:50:26.320 --> 1:50:29.519 He wrote a book about daniela plant, and Joe Turner's 1:50:29.560 --> 1:50:32.240 commented on our Instagram and I'm saying this off the 1:50:32.280 --> 1:50:34.120 top of my goddamn head. I'm not even looking at 1:50:34.120 --> 1:50:37.679 my phone right now. He messaged and said, not only 1:50:37.720 --> 1:50:39.719 did I do an episode with you about Daniel plant. 1:50:40.640 --> 1:50:45.840 My parents lived near the West and I bought furniture 1:50:45.920 --> 1:50:47.320 from Fred West. Is that right? 1:50:47.680 --> 1:50:49.599 Memory installed their fireplace. 1:50:49.240 --> 1:50:52.160 Installed their fire. 1:50:51.360 --> 1:50:53.880 In the house. They had it removed since he did 1:50:53.960 --> 1:50:54.280 say that. 1:50:54.320 --> 1:50:57.000 He said after after finding out what they did, we 1:50:57.000 --> 1:51:01.280 had it removed. But I'm sorry, Joe Turner, but things 1:51:01.320 --> 1:51:05.680 come in threes. So what other true crime story do 1:51:05.760 --> 1:51:06.840 you have a connection with? 1:51:07.120 --> 1:51:07.400 Yeah? 1:51:07.439 --> 1:51:11.000 Absolutely, what about this one. This is a speak pipe 1:51:11.040 --> 1:51:12.680 aka voice Welcome Cat. 1:51:14.200 --> 1:51:15.439 Hi, Georgie, and Sammy. 1:51:15.920 --> 1:51:16.679 This is Cat. 1:51:17.600 --> 1:51:20.639 I've been listening from the start of your podcast. Still 1:51:20.680 --> 1:51:24.639 loving it. This is my second speak pipe. I'm sitting 1:51:24.720 --> 1:51:26.080 here with my dog Clancy. 1:51:26.360 --> 1:51:28.240 Oh, I remember Cat mug. 1:51:30.200 --> 1:51:34.240 And I've just finished the Friend and Rose Good Story, 1:51:34.479 --> 1:51:39.599 which was Yeah, I mean we all know what that is. Now. 1:51:40.400 --> 1:51:43.160 I love this podcast. I've been recommending it to people. 1:51:43.640 --> 1:51:44.439 I've been getting them. 1:51:44.360 --> 1:51:45.000 To listen to it. 1:51:45.240 --> 1:51:49.840 I've got other people hooked and I'm trying to let 1:51:49.880 --> 1:51:51.559 go of something because this is from quite a few 1:51:51.600 --> 1:51:53.680 episodes ago now, but it keeps popping into my head 1:51:53.720 --> 1:51:57.599 and I just need to get it out. When Sammy 1:51:57.640 --> 1:52:01.160 did an episode on the Mona Lisa being stolen, he 1:52:01.240 --> 1:52:06.360 was not saying Mona as I believe it's pronounced. He 1:52:06.439 --> 1:52:12.479 was saying Mona, Lisa. The thing is, Georgia, you didn't 1:52:12.520 --> 1:52:17.680 correct her, which makes me feel like maybe Mona is correct. 1:52:17.280 --> 1:52:20.280 But oh my god, I really thought it was Mona. 1:52:20.400 --> 1:52:25.280 So I'm just questioning myself now because I feel like Georgia, 1:52:25.360 --> 1:52:29.040 you would have corrected him if he was wrong. You didn't, 1:52:29.640 --> 1:52:32.360 But I feel like I'm right. It just needs to 1:52:32.400 --> 1:52:36.920 get that off my chest. Okay, love you guys, eve 1:52:36.960 --> 1:52:37.599 to what you're doing. 1:52:39.200 --> 1:52:39.439 Fuck. 1:52:39.520 --> 1:52:42.120 I love our listeners. Fuck I love our listeners. Okay, 1:52:42.360 --> 1:52:45.920 can you be really honest. I didn't correct you because 1:52:45.920 --> 1:52:50.120 I was hearing myself and going, you stupid bitch, are 1:52:50.200 --> 1:52:53.040 so annoying, and you just stop correcting your best friend. 1:52:53.479 --> 1:52:56.760 I'm just being like an annoying I'm being Have you 1:52:56.800 --> 1:52:59.240 ever watched How I Met Your Mother? 1:52:59.680 --> 1:53:02.240 No? Really? Yeah? 1:53:02.520 --> 1:53:04.680 Okay, you know my best friend anyone? Anyway. I like 1:53:04.720 --> 1:53:08.439 that show. But Ted Moseby is the main character who 1:53:08.479 --> 1:53:13.439 I love but like really famously people hate him, and 1:53:13.479 --> 1:53:16.439 one of the things he does is correct people's English 1:53:16.439 --> 1:53:21.120 and brother, so I know that I do it a lot. Also, 1:53:21.120 --> 1:53:23.599 it's funny that I said correct English because obviously, Mona 1:53:23.600 --> 1:53:31.040 Lisa is not English English, Yeah, Inglish, se yes. I 1:53:31.120 --> 1:53:34.760 correct people. Often sometimes I stop myself because I'm going 1:53:34.880 --> 1:53:40.040 you're being a bitch. Just let it go now, Mona Lisa. 1:53:40.560 --> 1:53:47.680 Mona Lisa is Italian. I believe in Italian it's Mona Lisa, 1:53:48.040 --> 1:53:53.479 which could be heard Mona Lisa or Monalesea. It's kind 1:53:53.479 --> 1:53:57.160 of in between. I let it go because I don't know. 1:53:58.600 --> 1:54:04.040 I believe that English speaking people usually pronounce it Mona Lisa, 1:54:04.479 --> 1:54:09.000 but I'm not certain that that is correct. So I 1:54:09.040 --> 1:54:14.920 didn't say I let it go, but Cat did not. Cat, 1:54:15.640 --> 1:54:16.519 you are one of mine. 1:54:16.840 --> 1:54:23.000 Thank you, Cat for getting me in trouble after the fact, 1:54:23.640 --> 1:54:24.720 we've also got let's do. 1:54:24.920 --> 1:54:30.040 Why is this why I am in the position of 1:54:30.160 --> 1:54:30.960 life that I am. 1:54:31.720 --> 1:54:33.520 No, you're a wonderful person. 1:54:33.640 --> 1:54:37.560 Why wou't you look me in the eye. I can't. 1:54:38.360 --> 1:54:39.200 Love the show. 1:54:41.080 --> 1:54:45.200 Since you got Mister Sunday Movies was my first introduction. 1:54:45.560 --> 1:54:48.800 Then you know, every time I'm going to drive through 1:54:49.880 --> 1:54:54.440 you know, Hoddle street work and stuff, I've been yeah, 1:54:55.160 --> 1:54:59.240 pumping it so good ship. I have a suggestion for 1:55:00.320 --> 1:55:02.919 I'm living in Melbourne, but I'm from the Blue mountains 1:55:02.960 --> 1:55:07.160 outside of Sydney, and there's this case of a missing 1:55:07.760 --> 1:55:12.960 woman called Blinda Peasley and basically you can find a 1:55:13.000 --> 1:55:14.520 doco on iView. 1:55:14.560 --> 1:55:15.720 I think that's where I got right. 1:55:15.880 --> 1:55:21.560 Okay, it's this woman who or young lady who got 1:55:21.600 --> 1:55:25.240 a house from like a dead relative I think it was, 1:55:25.480 --> 1:55:29.080 and it basically turned into a trap house. Katoomba at 1:55:29.080 --> 1:55:31.320 the time was like big Heroin capital. 1:55:31.440 --> 1:55:33.760 So I turned into a trap house. 1:55:33.960 --> 1:55:38.720 And she went missing and no one really looked into 1:55:38.760 --> 1:55:41.760 it for like thirteen years in open up a thing 1:55:41.840 --> 1:55:44.040 until thirteen years later. So they're asking a bunch of 1:55:44.080 --> 1:55:46.560 like you know, Heroin addicts, what happened on. 1:55:46.520 --> 1:55:48.720 The specific nor years ago. 1:55:49.120 --> 1:55:50.360 I just think that's crazy. 1:55:51.000 --> 1:55:53.520 But I bring it up because I actually lived in 1:55:53.560 --> 1:55:58.600 that house after she'd gone missing a rent, so that 1:55:58.640 --> 1:56:00.560 would just be an interesting listening. 1:56:03.840 --> 1:56:04.520 All right, thanks go. 1:56:06.000 --> 1:56:09.320 Bye bye bye bye bye. Wow, that's fascinating many thank 1:56:09.360 --> 1:56:09.680 you for. 1:56:09.600 --> 1:56:11.600 Listening down Hoddle Street. 1:56:12.240 --> 1:56:15.840 When he said I drive down Hoddle Street to work, 1:56:15.880 --> 1:56:18.600 first of all, you'll drive past my work. Secondly, I 1:56:18.640 --> 1:56:21.640 thought you were going to suggest Julian Knight And if 1:56:22.120 --> 1:56:24.520 if any listeners don't know what I'm talking about. Don't 1:56:24.520 --> 1:56:27.880 look it up. I'll do it another time. Yeah, yeah, Benny, 1:56:29.080 --> 1:56:29.880 that's fascinating. 1:56:31.000 --> 1:56:33.640 Wow, we'll definitely have to do that. Thank you to 1:56:33.640 --> 1:56:36.360 everyone that always writes in. You can write in, send 1:56:36.360 --> 1:56:38.520 me an email to send me at just another company 1:56:38.560 --> 1:56:42.160 dot com dot au. You can send a voicemail. All 1:56:42.160 --> 1:56:43.480 the links are below. 1:56:43.600 --> 1:56:46.360 You can follow us at not Another Crime Podcast on TikTok. 1:56:48.880 --> 1:56:53.160 Also, you can leave well, no, leave us. 1:56:52.720 --> 1:56:57.520 Five us, leave us a five star, Tell at least 1:56:57.600 --> 1:56:58.880 three friends. 1:56:58.480 --> 1:57:00.160 Still on social media. 1:57:00.240 --> 1:57:04.440 Oh my god, tag us on such media. Sammy, I 1:57:04.480 --> 1:57:07.160 love our listeners so freaking much. 1:57:07.400 --> 1:57:08.840 SAME's Oh good. 1:57:10.000 --> 1:57:12.280 I was actually at a funeral last week and had 1:57:12.320 --> 1:57:14.520 three different people come up to me to say how 1:57:14.600 --> 1:57:14.960 much they. 1:57:14.920 --> 1:57:16.800 Loved this podcast. Oh I love that so much. 1:57:16.880 --> 1:57:17.720 How beautiful is that? 1:57:17.720 --> 1:57:21.040 That is beautiful? Thank you to Oliver Clark doing the 1:57:21.120 --> 1:57:23.280 music and the artwork. 1:57:23.400 --> 1:57:26.280 You sound like you're about to wrap up. Repeave again. 1:57:26.560 --> 1:57:29.240 Now we don't always do it. We forgot it last week. 1:57:29.120 --> 1:57:31.200 But we always do it right at the end. So, Georgia, 1:57:31.280 --> 1:57:32.480 what is your repeat? 1:57:32.520 --> 1:57:35.720 It will start churning, people start turning off when they 1:57:35.880 --> 1:57:36.280 hear us. 1:57:36.360 --> 1:57:36.520 Right. 1:57:36.600 --> 1:57:41.560 No, I'll do mine first. Okay, looking up. I had 1:57:41.560 --> 1:57:44.240 to call the doctor last week because I need to 1:57:44.240 --> 1:57:49.400 get a repeat prescription for my anxiety medication. I only 1:57:49.440 --> 1:57:54.400 did it as a tallyhealth appointment ninety two dollars, oh. 1:57:53.600 --> 1:57:55.720 My, just to get a new prescription. And then you've 1:57:55.720 --> 1:57:57.440 got to pay for the subscription. 1:57:57.840 --> 1:58:00.920 That is nuts. When when you only we are getting 1:58:00.960 --> 1:58:04.480 a script refilled. It is a two second conversation. My 1:58:04.600 --> 1:58:07.360 pet peeve is that they're charging you through the asshole, 1:58:08.640 --> 1:58:10.320 charging you through the goddamn asshole. 1:58:10.320 --> 1:58:12.160 We're talking about bums today. 1:58:11.920 --> 1:58:13.160 A lot about bums today. 1:58:13.520 --> 1:58:17.120 All right, mind, I've got two things that I'm actually 1:58:18.080 --> 1:58:21.680 gonna say us stories. They're not pet beeves, they're straight 1:58:21.760 --> 1:58:24.960 up hates. But then the third thing on my list. 1:58:25.360 --> 1:58:27.760 A woopy Goldberg once said, they said to you have 1:58:27.760 --> 1:58:31.280 pet peeves, and she says, I have whole kennels of irritation. 1:58:32.240 --> 1:58:36.080 Oh my god, that's me. I'm woopi Goldberg say that 1:58:36.160 --> 1:58:38.400 because you're thinking of will be a cushion, because you're 1:58:38.400 --> 1:58:39.120 talking about bums a lot. 1:58:39.240 --> 1:58:40.160 Yeah, I'm talking about. 1:58:39.920 --> 1:58:44.360 Bumps people dressing. Oh my god, my pet Beeves were bumps. 1:58:44.680 --> 1:58:47.880 This is great. I'm a bordal of them. 1:58:47.920 --> 1:58:49.760 People dressing their bums on planes. 1:58:51.000 --> 1:58:53.880 I hate what do you mean? 1:58:54.120 --> 1:59:00.240 People dressing like they are sitting on their couch eating 1:59:00.440 --> 1:59:05.880 their KFC in front of a movie. The freaking airport, 1:59:06.360 --> 1:59:13.360 dirty tracksuit pants and active wear, and just like people 1:59:13.680 --> 1:59:16.640 dressing like they are sitting on their own couch at home. 1:59:17.360 --> 1:59:19.840 On a plane, you don't have to dress up, right, 1:59:19.880 --> 1:59:21.200 You don't have to wear a suit unless you're a 1:59:21.240 --> 1:59:24.120 business class. That is caveat. But if you're going to 1:59:24.200 --> 1:59:27.200 the airport and you're going on a plane, just dress 1:59:27.760 --> 1:59:31.120 like you're leaving the house. Do you not notice that? 1:59:31.200 --> 1:59:35.800 Like these days this scene, babes, I'm such an old, 1:59:35.800 --> 1:59:40.360 grumpy carrying lady. But in my day you would get 1:59:40.440 --> 1:59:43.360 dressed nicely and that could just be jeans and a 1:59:43.400 --> 1:59:46.800 goddamn T shirt. Sure to get on a plane. Everyone 1:59:46.880 --> 1:59:49.800 is walking through the airport in their big oversized tracksuit 1:59:49.920 --> 1:59:54.200 pants and like little crop tops and stupid big huge 1:59:54.280 --> 1:59:58.880 over the top of headphones, like all slouchy walking through 1:59:58.920 --> 2:00:01.920 the airport and getting on the plane. If you're going 2:00:01.960 --> 2:00:04.840 on a long flight that you're gonna sleep, change into 2:00:04.920 --> 2:00:07.400 comfort clothes on the plane. If you're not even it's 2:00:07.400 --> 2:00:09.320 a domestic flight, So you wear them on the plane 2:00:10.720 --> 2:00:16.040 because you are in like society, you are interacting with 2:00:16.160 --> 2:00:20.520 other people, You're sitting in communal chairs, you're in like 2:00:20.680 --> 2:00:26.320 cafes and stuff at the airport terminal. Dress normally, dress nicely. Again, 2:00:26.440 --> 2:00:28.800 I'm not saying like you have to dress up, but 2:00:28.920 --> 2:00:30.680 just where like you and I wearing. Now, I'm wearing 2:00:30.720 --> 2:00:33.080 like a white shirt and denim shorts. You're wearing jeans 2:00:33.120 --> 2:00:36.080 and a T shirt. That's great, that's fine. Don't wear 2:00:36.200 --> 2:00:40.520 over oversized, gross, dirty trackies and a crop top like 2:00:40.560 --> 2:00:42.880 you're going to the gym or lounging on your couch. 2:00:43.640 --> 2:00:46.080 I'm angry. Now, Okay, you meant to agree with me 2:00:46.160 --> 2:00:50.440 with that. You don't agree, but I think right we're 2:00:50.440 --> 2:00:53.360 going angry. You and I are both going to Hoba 2:00:53.560 --> 2:00:55.800 on the weekend. We're not gonna be at the airport 2:00:55.800 --> 2:00:56.760 at same time. 2:00:56.880 --> 2:01:00.440 But I'm gonna wear my tracksuit. No, if I don't 2:01:00.480 --> 2:01:01.280 get dressed on the way. 2:01:02.640 --> 2:01:06.520 When you arrive in Hobert and we reconvene, I'm going 2:01:06.600 --> 2:01:10.520 to say to you, did you look around and notice 2:01:10.560 --> 2:01:12.960 everyone dressed like bums? And did it make you angry? 2:01:13.160 --> 2:01:16.200 And you're going to say no, that's. 2:01:17.840 --> 2:01:20.760 I was wearing my strike eye mask. 2:01:21.760 --> 2:01:24.600 Just you don't have to dress up. Just dress please, 2:01:24.760 --> 2:01:27.640 just like you're going to work in normal off its. 2:01:27.720 --> 2:01:30.560 Dress like you're going to walk down the street and 2:01:30.680 --> 2:01:34.160 see somebody for a coffee. That's fine, that's fine, that's 2:01:34.280 --> 2:01:36.480 I'm fine with that. Okay, you're going to meet somebody 2:01:36.480 --> 2:01:39.640 for a coffee dressed like that. Don't dress like you're 2:01:39.680 --> 2:01:41.760 going to sit on your couch all day or go 2:01:41.800 --> 2:01:47.040 to the before. I love KFC, but that's the thing. 2:01:47.480 --> 2:01:50.080 When you're eating your KFC at home on the couch, 2:01:50.160 --> 2:01:53.400 you want to be comfy. You don't need No, no, 2:01:53.440 --> 2:01:56.720 you don't. Now my poeldry peeve is you do not 2:01:56.840 --> 2:02:01.200 agree with I love you guys. There's another really long episode, Sammy, 2:02:01.320 --> 2:02:04.320 that was really beautiful. Thank you so much. That was devastating. 2:02:04.920 --> 2:02:07.240 I'm gonna go on a deep dive as soon as 2:02:07.240 --> 2:02:10.720 I get home and probably cry some more. Please or 2:02:10.800 --> 2:02:13.960 let us know how much you love, hated, hated, loved 2:02:14.080 --> 2:02:19.120 this episode, Sammy. Thank you, goodbye bye,