Speaker 1: In October nineteen ninety seven, a law student in Canberra, Australia,
Speaker 1: made a plan to murder her devoted boyfriend after a
Speaker 1: dinner party. But it wasn't a secret. The dinner guests
Speaker 1: had all heard rumors about the plan and went along
Speaker 1: with morbid curiosity. But in what could be described as
Speaker 1: the ultimate bystander effect, nobody warned the young man.
Speaker 2: Surely they thought it was a joke.
Speaker 1: Surely everybody knew but him. This is the devastating case
Speaker 1: of Joe chinque.
Speaker 2: Oh. I know of this one, but I didn't know
Speaker 2: all even already all those.
Speaker 1: Oh well, you are going to need to strap yourself in.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like aws.
Speaker 2: Sounded bit like Exactually fuck.
Speaker 1: Hey there, everybody, welcome it to It not another crime podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Georgia, I'm Sammy Peterson.
Speaker 2: I'm a journalist.
Speaker 1: I am not and today if you want to skip
Speaker 1: ahead and just listen to the story, do you know
Speaker 1: how to do that? What do you do?
Speaker 2: Ge? You look at the time stamp in the show notes.
Speaker 1: God, you're good, you got that right away?
Speaker 2: Thank you. Has the week been?
Speaker 1: It's been okay. I got a new fridge this week,
Speaker 1: Actually got a new fridge, and I was feeling I
Speaker 1: was still a little bit sick when the new fridge
Speaker 1: was coming, and I was like, this is gonna be quick.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be fine. Or get the fridge in. It's
Speaker 1: gonna be great. And it was a huge fridge. But
Speaker 1: I was gonna fit through everything. It's gonna be great.
Speaker 1: They got it through the first door, they got it
Speaker 1: through the second door, and in my apartment, I have
Speaker 1: got a slightly narrower doors.
Speaker 2: I'm looking at it right now that he's actually quite
Speaker 2: a narrow door.
Speaker 1: It's quite narrow about that. The first and who sold
Speaker 1: it to me knew more about fridges than I know
Speaker 1: about anything in my whole life.
Speaker 2: That's so beautiful.
Speaker 1: I love that they were very excited about the free door.
Speaker 2: Give him a shout out, non spawn Harvey Norman, your salespeople, they.
Speaker 1: Were very good with his name.
Speaker 2: Harvey.
Speaker 1: Yes, Harvey Norman was his name.
Speaker 2: That's amazing.
Speaker 1: Yes, And yeah, I basically got it through both doors.
Speaker 1: Then the next door actual apartment. Yeah, it just was
Speaker 1: not going to fit through unless I took the door off.
Speaker 1: So they were like, oh we can't, we just can't
Speaker 1: do it. And I was doing that thing of going no,
Speaker 1: just try, just try, just knowing that it wasn't just
Speaker 1: break the doorframe, break the doorframe, and I designed a
Speaker 1: thing to be because theres any damage to the fridge
Speaker 1: like blah blah blah, so I had to do that.
Speaker 1: Then I could just see it coming forward and that
Speaker 1: it just wasn't going to fit in, you know. And
Speaker 1: you know, when I well, maybe I just do this.
Speaker 1: I do stuff sometimes when I'm like, I know this
Speaker 1: isn't going to work, but I'd just like you to try.
Speaker 2: You have to try, because otherwise will always think what if.
Speaker 2: And one of my life mottos is I would rather think.
Speaker 2: I would rather have a regret than think what if forever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know that. I well, actually, when I
Speaker 1: moved into this place, I got dog balls way too.
Speaker 2: Small for digs and no, no, no, no, no, you got
Speaker 2: cat bowls.
Speaker 1: I got cat bowles so way too small for digs,
Speaker 1: and I kept them for longer than I need to
Speaker 1: because my mum told me that they were too small
Speaker 1: for him, and I was like, I meant to get
Speaker 1: them this size, and I kept them just for ages
Speaker 1: and I was just like, no, I'm right.
Speaker 2: I saw them when I first came around here, and
Speaker 2: I was because you'd said I've got.
Speaker 1: Dig some new Yeah, I got very excited.
Speaker 2: And I saw them here and I looked at them
Speaker 2: and I was like, I think they're meant to be
Speaker 2: for cats. But I kept it to myself, and then
Speaker 2: you told me a few weeks later. He meant I
Speaker 2: got new bowls because I had accidentally bought cat bolls.
Speaker 2: But I refused to admit that because my mom she
Speaker 2: was which has a thirty three year old man, thirty
Speaker 2: four year old man is amazing.
Speaker 1: It's pretty good. But yeah, So the door was then
Speaker 1: taken off. So took the door off, but it took
Speaker 1: it took a while to get the door off. I
Speaker 1: was feeling really sick. And then I put the door
Speaker 1: on the wall and straight away Digs ran out and
Speaker 1: met the neighbors. He ran into their place. Then I
Speaker 1: had to go into the next door neighbors and get
Speaker 1: down and he was having the best time ever. And
Speaker 1: so Dix is like, I don't think we need a
Speaker 1: door anymore.
Speaker 2: Why was this here in the first place you can
Speaker 2: visit your neighbors.
Speaker 1: And he was running through the apartment just so free,
Speaker 1: just loving everything. It was so cute to watch him
Speaker 1: like they were down and they were fine with it,
Speaker 1: thank god. But it was very funny watching him going,
Speaker 1: I don't need a door.
Speaker 2: We need it. Well, my story for you this week,
Speaker 2: what's happened this week is also about clearing the way
Speaker 2: for traffic to get past if you will. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: my segue. Yeah, my car got towed because I parked.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, as you guys know, if you listened last week
Speaker 2: and the week before, I was very sick for two weeks.
Speaker 2: The first day I was feeling alive again. I went
Speaker 2: to the he addresser, got my hair done, was feeling myself.
Speaker 2: Posted on Instagram. I feel alive again thanks to Reese
Speaker 2: Mitchel Harrison, my hairdresser, not spawn Um. Ten minutes later,
Speaker 2: ten minutes after that post, next post, my fucking car
Speaker 2: got I went out in front of the addresser. This
Speaker 2: sounds made up, I promised to you it is not.
Speaker 2: As it opened the door of the hairdresser, I saw
Speaker 2: the tow truck leaving in front of me, like it
Speaker 2: was literally driving past me with my car on the back.
Speaker 2: I hadn't realized it was a movie moment where I
Speaker 2: had parked and my hair point went longer than I thought.
Speaker 2: This is boring detail. Blah blah blah. My car got
Speaker 2: towed because I parked in a place I shouldn't have.
Speaker 2: It cost me so much to get it out of
Speaker 2: the impound center. And I'm also going to get a
Speaker 2: fine like an infringement for having parked in a clear way.
Speaker 2: And the freaking toe truck company scratched my new car. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and they say they have they don't think they did it.
Speaker 2: And they said, well, can you send any photos you
Speaker 2: took before or during? And not only photos that have
Speaker 2: are from the front and you can't sit scratch. So
Speaker 2: that was the most expensive haircut of all time. Thanks
Speaker 2: for noticing it.
Speaker 1: But worth it because Reese something Harrison. Reese Mitchell Harrison
Speaker 1: does the best cuts you've ever seen. He runs a
Speaker 1: place called Just Cuts. No, he doesn't, and he does
Speaker 1: some of the finest hairs from Just Cut. Georgia Lovely
Speaker 1: Haircuts haircuts she has lovely haircuts from Reese Mitchell Jordan's Mitchell.
Speaker 2: Rich Mitchell Harrison. He doesn't work at us Carrison.
Speaker 1: It was Just Cuts and he does some of the
Speaker 1: greatest cuts you money can bow. He works at Melbourne
Speaker 1: Central No, he doesn't. Georgia parked on the tram tracks.
Speaker 2: No I didn't, No, but you.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's so frustrating because I had that happened
Speaker 1: to me once and I had just moved to Melbourne.
Speaker 1: I didn't know where the car was.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, I mean even if you have lived in Melbourne,
Speaker 2: if you've ever had it toad before, you don't orries Google?
Speaker 2: Where does my car? Hey? Google? Where does cargo went to?
Speaker 1: Where does cargo to?
Speaker 2: Anyway? So I'm angry because I was sick and I
Speaker 2: spent a lot of money on well, to be fair,
Speaker 2: I spent a normal amount of money on my haircut,
Speaker 2: but I spent a lot of money in my car
Speaker 2: just for it to get scratched. And I'm going to
Speaker 2: put that I have in my Poudrey Peeves list for today,
Speaker 2: which we forgot last week. Clearways, but I've just decided
Speaker 2: to do it as a Harriet.
Speaker 1: Hate Harriet hate, because you're furious, aren't you?
Speaker 2: Just?
Speaker 1: You're furious? Hey, everybody, we'hen getting to this episode really soon.
Speaker 1: But if you want, you can send us an email
Speaker 1: just another company dot com dot au. You can leave
Speaker 1: us a voicemail that's called a speak Pipe. All the
Speaker 1: links are below.
Speaker 2: Lead said as an email at Sammy it just another
Speaker 2: company dot com. I got the email address right though.
Speaker 2: Follow us on Instagram and TikTok getting on another crime podcast.
Speaker 2: You must leave us the five star rating him than
Speaker 2: a Slaver survive star.
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you so much, everybody. Enjoy this week's episode
Speaker 1: Sammy Special. Today it's a Sami Special. Enjoy the riffins.
Speaker 2: No spont no if you want to spawn though emas
Speaker 2: at Sammy just another company.
Speaker 1: This case has affected me in more ways than I
Speaker 1: could have imagined. I picked up the book by Helen Ghana,
Speaker 1: Joe Chinkway's Consolation, after going to buy Helen Ghana's latest
Speaker 1: book on the mushroom cook Aaron Patterson our favorite. This
Speaker 1: story is devastating and it's honestly a case that I
Speaker 1: cannot stop thinking about. I read the book quickly, I
Speaker 1: listened to anything I could, and I feel like my
Speaker 1: mind was pretty made up about how I felt about
Speaker 1: what happened. I'd love to hear your opinion, Ge, and
Speaker 1: I'd also love to hear what listeners think.
Speaker 2: Brinita tells the story first.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, you know you're right you are right, Thank you.
Speaker 2: I usually.
Speaker 1: Joe was murdered. What I didn't expect to learn was
Speaker 1: how many complex feelings I had about the killer and
Speaker 1: the friend who helped her.
Speaker 2: Oh okay.
Speaker 1: In fact, it resonated with me on a personal level,
Speaker 1: with my own brother developing drug psychosis and completely changing
Speaker 1: as a brother I once loved and grew up with.
Speaker 1: I cannot recommend the book highly enough. As always, I
Speaker 1: commit my undying love for Helen Ghana and how she
Speaker 1: can find the human in people who were often deemed monsters.
Speaker 2: It's interesting to say that, because I mean just that
Speaker 2: sentence itself, a lot of people would say, well, no,
Speaker 2: there's no human in here.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's how beautifully she writes, and how I suppose
Speaker 2: in depth she goes into her story.
Speaker 1: Yes, and she looks at things a different way. Yeah.
Speaker 1: This is a story of a man's life who was
Speaker 1: taken too soon, far too soon, and a complex look
Speaker 1: into the lives and why from what we can glean,
Speaker 1: the pair did it and why no one did anything
Speaker 1: to stop it.
Speaker 2: My God, tell me what happened?
Speaker 1: Well, do you know a lot about this case already? No?
Speaker 2: I know that a girlfriend, I think it was like
Speaker 2: a murder, like a suicide pack.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, she backed out.
Speaker 2: That's about all I remember.
Speaker 1: Okay, well we'll go into it, and I really want
Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on it. Yeah, because it is.
Speaker 1: It's really fascinating and there's a lot. There's a lot
Speaker 1: in here. Joe Chinkwe was a twenty six year old
Speaker 1: engineer living with his girlfriend, a new Singh in their
Speaker 1: terrace house in Canberra.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember, I remember a news name.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, there's an interesting part of this, but I
Speaker 1: think it's kind of glossed over when I read the
Speaker 1: trans script of the Call to the Ambulance. I'd like
Speaker 1: you to keep in mind what kind of house they
Speaker 1: lived in. Joe was working full time and a new
Speaker 1: was finishing her final year of law. Joe was killed.
Speaker 2: That's ironic, I know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, all the people that were at the dinner
Speaker 1: party were actually lawyers. Oh my god, Joe was killed
Speaker 1: by a lethal injection of heroin while he was unconscious
Speaker 1: from rohipnol, which she had drugged him with in his coffee.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: I'm going to refer to the book for a transcript
Speaker 1: of the Call to the ambulance. This is what Halen
Speaker 1: Ghana writes as the opening to that transcript.
Speaker 2: He's even getting out.
Speaker 1: His physical book, like I put a little post it note.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you're so cute, just like my father.
Speaker 2: Why is there an apple on the cover.
Speaker 1: We'll get into it. A bad apple to it?
Speaker 2: Well you hey apple asle Okay, very big apple.
Speaker 1: The house he died in on Sunday twenty sixth of
Speaker 1: October nineteen ninety seven was not far from the Canberra
Speaker 1: Ambulance headquarters. Oh, the paramedics would have been able to
Speaker 1: reach him in a flash, but it took the dispatcher
Speaker 1: almost twenty minutes to get to the right address from
Speaker 1: the hysterical young woman who placed the zero zero zero call,
Speaker 1: the triple zero call. Like all emergency calls, this one
Speaker 1: was recorded. This is the male dispatcher. Okay, and the
Speaker 1: phone number you're ringing from. Could I get an ambulance please?
Speaker 1: I have a person potentially overdosed on heroine. Potentially overdosed.
Speaker 1: Well he's not. He's vomiting everywhere, blood stuff. He's vomiting
Speaker 1: blood right. Okay, what's the address? Is that a bad sign?
Speaker 1: What's the address? Can you hang on, Please just tell me.
Speaker 1: Is that a bad sign? That's well, it's not good
Speaker 1: if he's vomiting blood? Oh is he going to be? Okay?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'll send an ambulance for them to
Speaker 1: check him out. Fair enough. What's the address? Thirty Antil Street?
Speaker 1: Is that a flat or a house? Oh? It's a flat?
Speaker 1: What number is Antil Street? What number in Antel Street?
Speaker 1: What's going to happen? What's the flat number? Oh? Shit, shit,
Speaker 1: listen to me, says apparently medic again. Oh hang on,
Speaker 1: what am I going to do? Settle down? Settle down? Okay,
Speaker 1: what am I going to do? Well? If you tell
Speaker 1: me the address, I'll get an ambulance out to you.
Speaker 1: Will he be? Okay? Oh?
Speaker 2: This is so frustrating.
Speaker 1: I don't know. We'll have to get an ambulance to
Speaker 1: you to assess him. What is the number of the
Speaker 1: flat in Antel is is? Oh shit? What is the
Speaker 1: number of the flat in Antel Street? It's seventy nine?
Speaker 1: Maybe flat thirty seventy nine? Is that correct? Yeah? No,
Speaker 1: hang on, flat thirty? Hang on? Where's the ambulance. The
Speaker 1: ambulance is at Dixon. Now just calm down. What's your name.
Speaker 1: What's your name? Oh shit, he's vomiting blood? What and
Speaker 1: the dispatcher again says, what's your name? I know? Who says?
Speaker 1: Is he going to die? What is your name? Tell me?
Speaker 1: Tell me? Please? Cries? What is your name? Oh? Oh god,
Speaker 1: Olivia says anw oh what is your name? Please? Olivia? Olivia?
Speaker 1: Oh fuck? Hang on? Hang on? What's the number you're
Speaker 1: ringing from? Hang on? His heart's still beating? Good right, Okay,
Speaker 1: just settle down, for God's sake, says the dispatcher. Oh God.
Speaker 1: To be pretty uncommon, you'd think for a dispatcher to
Speaker 1: say that flat thirty seventy nine Antil Street. Okay, we've
Speaker 1: got the flat thirty seventy nine, No, seventy nine Antil Street.
Speaker 1: What's the flat number? It's a townhouse? What it's seventy
Speaker 1: nine in Antil Street? Yeah, yeah, get here quickly. All right,
Speaker 1: we've got someone there. Now. Now that was not the
Speaker 1: only call that was made that night, but it's a
Speaker 1: really interesting call because a new calls herself Olivia in
Speaker 1: that call, name of time a number of times. And
Speaker 1: as we heard before, they lived in a townhouse.
Speaker 2: And it was her address she lived there.
Speaker 1: I lived there. Yeah, yeah, which could be you know,
Speaker 1: she was like, what happened?
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, because the way that reads is as if
Speaker 2: she didn't really know she was there for a dinner party.
Speaker 2: She didn't really know the address she was at, so
Speaker 2: she was trying to find out what it was. And
Speaker 2: I mean, god, touch would. I don't know what it's
Speaker 2: like to be in that situation where you're panicking and
Speaker 2: calling an ambulance. But I mean it's very easy to
Speaker 2: say from this point of view, but you would think
Speaker 2: you could just spit out the address if you knew it.
Speaker 1: You think you'd be able to Yeah, it was your
Speaker 1: own home. On June eleventh, nineteen seventy one, Joe was
Speaker 1: born to Nino and Maria Chinque in Newcastle, New South Wales.
Speaker 1: He was named after his grandfather, Giuseppe or Joe for sure.
Speaker 1: That a beautiful Yeah, it was a way to carry
Speaker 1: on his heritage. They thought she most that's right, German heritage.
Speaker 1: They thought he was the most beautiful baby they'd ever seen,
Speaker 1: do you.
Speaker 2: I mean most parents say that about that. Mine did
Speaker 2: not about me. What because my older sister Katie was
Speaker 2: the most beautiful baby anyone's ever seen. And then I
Speaker 2: came out and my mom was like, oh, she does
Speaker 2: not look like she does look like The reason my
Speaker 2: godmother is my godmother is because she was like, oh,
Speaker 2: my god, she's beautiful. And Mom was like, no, she's not.
Speaker 2: And I don't like it. And I'll listening to this too, actually,
Speaker 2: and I was like, yeah, she is, and Mama, well
Speaker 2: you can have.
Speaker 1: Joe's parents immigrated to Australia from Italy four years prior.
Speaker 2: I knew it in.
Speaker 1: He said, Germany. In nineteen seventy five, Nino and Maria
Speaker 1: welcomed their second boy, Anthony. With two boys, the house
Speaker 1: was bustling, often described as chaotic. It's my worst night,
Speaker 1: toys and games all over the floor like digs. I
Speaker 1: was living with digs. But Nino and Maria loved everything
Speaker 1: about it. They were happy to have their two boys.
Speaker 1: They lived in a red brick house in Newcastle. Newcastle
Speaker 1: is a harbor city in the Australian state of New
Speaker 1: South Wales. It's located one hundred and sixty two kilometers
Speaker 1: or one hundred and one miles from Sydney. Joe's mum
Speaker 1: was a housewife and his father worked as a tradesman.
Speaker 1: Joe saw that his dad. Joe saw what his dad
Speaker 1: had done for a living, and he ended up working
Speaker 1: at the same company that he and his grandfather and
Speaker 1: his father had all worked out. Oh my god, before
Speaker 1: they knew it. Joe and Anthony were young men, growing
Speaker 1: up all too soon from Marea's liking, but they would
Speaker 1: all have family dinners every single night because they all
Speaker 1: stayed close by. Joe was a gifted athlete, playing tennis
Speaker 1: and soccer. There were trophies littered all around the family home.
Speaker 1: He also radiated confidence and energy. He was a great
Speaker 1: student and a fantastic friend, often the one to bury
Speaker 1: the hatchet in any quarrel and find a way to
Speaker 1: move on. So two friends were kind of finding he'd
Speaker 1: be the one to go to. He was extremely well
Speaker 1: liked by everyone who met him. You just couldn't help
Speaker 1: but be drawn to him. He wanted to study architecture,
Speaker 1: but also didn't want a career that would keep him
Speaker 1: inside all day, strapped to the desk, so instead he
Speaker 1: decided to take up a career in civil engineering. Wow.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety four, at just twenty four years old,
Speaker 1: he graduated university. His parents had bought him a ticket
Speaker 1: overseas as a gift for graduating.
Speaker 2: Oh nice marine.
Speaker 1: He really wanted to go traveling before starting his working life,
Speaker 1: and at the time broke it off with his girlfriend, Rebecca,
Speaker 1: who everyone kind of thought he'd end up with.
Speaker 2: Oh god, that's not very nice. Like see, I want
Speaker 2: to go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I don't know if you said it
Speaker 1: like that, but that's probably dead. After Joe died, Rebecca
Speaker 1: turned up to the family home and told Maria that
Speaker 1: she just wished Joe had loved her like she had
Speaker 1: loved him. I was so heartbreaking. She bought flowers and
Speaker 1: told her that.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: When he got back, he found a job at a
Speaker 1: civil engineering company as a project manager, which was close
Speaker 1: to his family in Newcastle.
Speaker 2: I want to get sorry. I wanted to look at
Speaker 2: what Joe looks like. I'd like to have a visual
Speaker 2: of him. Yeah, of course, I actually know what a
Speaker 2: new thing looks like. But isn't that terrible? I know
Speaker 2: what she looks like, and I've actually got in my
Speaker 2: notes the name a new sin for an episode to do.
Speaker 2: Oh really, not Joe's. Isn't that terrible? We always talk
Speaker 2: about how you know that shouldn't be the case. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Maria, Joe's mother said in Helen Ganner's book that
Speaker 1: Joe's father and grandfather worked at the same engineering company.
Speaker 1: Like I said before, so it's a big over you know,
Speaker 1: International Corporation.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, yeah, I'm looking at him. H yeah. They
Speaker 2: look very I mean, this is such a boring basic
Speaker 2: thing to say. They look like a couple in the nineties. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like in a kind of mid to late twenties, a.
Speaker 1: Good looking couple.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very good. Okay, Yeah, he looks quite American.
Speaker 1: He does, doesn't he.
Speaker 2: He's very like chiseled jaw a bit like.
Speaker 1: Like Italian American. Doesn't mean like he's got a very
Speaker 1: Italian kind of face. If he didn't have enough to do,
Speaker 1: like you know, all week, he'd find he'd find himself
Speaker 1: really restless. Maria kind of noticed this with him from
Speaker 1: a young age. He would hang out with friends, go
Speaker 1: to the pub, or put in extra hours at work
Speaker 1: with his friends. He would regularly hang out at a
Speaker 1: local pub called the Brewery. That's when he met twenty
Speaker 1: two year old a new Thing on two only twenty
Speaker 1: two at the time. Yeah. Anu was born in India
Speaker 1: on September third, nineteen seventy two. Her parents relocated to
Speaker 1: Newcastle when she was really young. Both of her parents
Speaker 1: were doctors and push their children to do well in
Speaker 1: their studies. And you had completed her schooling and got
Speaker 1: a HSC. Did I say that right?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: But HS and HSC to go into economics and law
Speaker 1: at ANU, which is the Australian National University in Canberra.
Speaker 1: She also called the Act Act Act the.
Speaker 2: Act of going to University a little bit of trivia
Speaker 2: for our international listeners because I would has it. I
Speaker 2: guess most people outside of Australia don't know this. Canberra
Speaker 2: is actually our capital city, not Sydney.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that it was because the two were fighting
Speaker 1: it out, won't they.
Speaker 2: Melbourne and Sydney were fighting it out as we always do,
Speaker 2: even two hundred years ago we were, And so they
Speaker 2: just picked a They just made a city in the middle.
Speaker 1: And you know what's it is a lovely place, Canberra.
Speaker 1: I quite like Canberra, but there is nothing around it.
Speaker 2: No, it's yeah, it's in them.
Speaker 1: It's it's in the middle, just.
Speaker 2: A city that they was not even in the middle.
Speaker 2: It's closer to Sydney. But that's a very Melbourne person
Speaker 2: being of me.
Speaker 1: To say they got it close up. Yeah, So she
Speaker 1: moved down there and started her degree. So that a
Speaker 1: New moved to Canberra and started her degree in the
Speaker 1: early nineties, but didn't cope living away from home. She
Speaker 1: called her mother a lot and would go back home frequently.
Speaker 1: And it was extremely attractive, high achieving, and very well spoken.
Speaker 1: She had a focus on going to the gym and
Speaker 1: was an obsessive dieter. Her parents ended up moving to
Speaker 1: Sydney and lived and worked there, and You graduated in
Speaker 1: economics and her plan was to go back and finish
Speaker 1: her law degree.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: When Anew and Joe met at the brewery, they immediately
Speaker 1: hit it off. Anew was back home for a short
Speaker 1: period of time, their two friendship groups happened to know
Speaker 1: each other and they got chatting. Anew had a boyfriend
Speaker 1: at the time who she lived with in Canberra.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: His name was Simon Walsh. One report stated that he
Speaker 1: found out about the fling and ended it. Another stated
Speaker 1: that the more time Joe and a New spent together,
Speaker 1: the less she could see Simon and it eventually fizzled out.
Speaker 1: So I don't really know which one is true. There
Speaker 1: it seemed like yeah, he found out about it big
Speaker 1: blow up, or that they stayed together for a while
Speaker 1: and adventually there.
Speaker 2: It sounds like there was some kind of crossover with
Speaker 2: some sort of crossover meeting Joe was the reason she
Speaker 2: Diamon ended.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Yet whatever the timeline was.
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, but a New was really heartbroken by
Speaker 1: the breakup with Simon. Senior parole Officer Naomi Buick had
Speaker 1: spent hours interviewing a New and said that she had
Speaker 1: terminated a pregnancy while with Simon, which had a lasting
Speaker 1: and traumatic effect on her.
Speaker 2: Oh sad.
Speaker 1: She was particularly hurt by a claim he made calling
Speaker 1: her intellectually inferior. Oh ye, which which is what she
Speaker 1: said about others. So it really hit her heart, she
Speaker 1: said about everybody. Yeah, it had a really big impact
Speaker 1: on her. It was a huge turning point in her behavior.
Speaker 2: So she's allogical, other people intellectually inferior. But if someone
Speaker 2: calls her that, yeah she was crazy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, dish it out, but you can't take.
Speaker 2: Care not me and that crowd.
Speaker 1: I didn't growl and I didn't cut that out of
Speaker 1: the podcast. By late nineteen ninety five, she developed bolimia.
Speaker 1: She spiraled into a deep depression and move back in
Speaker 1: with her parents. She wanted liposunction and refused to admit
Speaker 1: that she was suffering. She had a diet of Coca cola,
Speaker 1: tim tams and she would smoke. She also dabbled in drugs.
Speaker 1: So she actually I think that her dad actually went
Speaker 1: through with the liposuction, which there was no shed went
Speaker 1: through with it. Oh sorry, So I actually paid for
Speaker 1: her to have liposuctions. So she was really kind of
Speaker 1: the way that she spoke to people. She kind of
Speaker 1: seemed like she could kind of get her way with
Speaker 1: anything that she said, and there was nothing to her.
Speaker 1: She was the skinniest person and actually had liposunction.
Speaker 2: Oh, I just looked up. The photo is a understand that.
Speaker 1: Joe had been in an awful car accident with his
Speaker 1: family at the age of just eight years old. His mother, Maria,
Speaker 1: had a debilitating foot injury, and so Joe acted as
Speaker 1: caretaker during this time. He was soon to become a
Speaker 1: caretaker once again to a new They would talk on
Speaker 1: the phone dozens of times per day, dozens dozens, so
Speaker 1: when he was in Newcastle and she was in Canberra,
Speaker 1: a call about fifteen times a day.
Speaker 2: Well, that's toxic.
Speaker 1: Joe was now by her side. In her condition, it
Speaker 1: did not show signs of improvements. One of the things
Speaker 1: that I was often commented that Anew would say that
Speaker 1: she was really sick, she had something, and Joe would
Speaker 1: have to continually go back to Camber to look after her.
Speaker 2: I've known a couple like that. Yeah, it's really yeah,
Speaker 2: Well I didn't end in murder, my lord, No I didn't.
Speaker 1: But no, what did you look at me and the
Speaker 1: iron growl? No?
Speaker 2: I cut that out of a podcast too.
Speaker 1: Joe had fallen head over heels for a new and
Speaker 1: it was a strikingly beautiful person. Like I mentioned before,
Speaker 1: a new and Joe would talk for hours and hours
Speaker 1: at a time. By nineteen ninety six, they were dating exclusively. Nice.
Speaker 2: Nice.
Speaker 1: They spent It's like I looked at you like.
Speaker 2: A caused and he looked at me.
Speaker 1: Nice.
Speaker 2: You never't been talking about that exclusively? Ready? One? Two three? Nice.
Speaker 1: They spent most of their free time together and from
Speaker 1: the outside looked like a very happy couple. Joe's family
Speaker 1: sat down for dinner with Anew to finally meet her.
Speaker 1: They wanted to know kind of who this person was
Speaker 1: that their son was spending all this time with Joe's
Speaker 1: parents believed she was intelligent, but thought that something was
Speaker 1: a bit off about her.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 1: She brought up a lot of odd topics, talking a
Speaker 1: lot about the afterlife, and also spoke about a previous
Speaker 1: relationship in great detail, saying there was almost a little incestuous.
Speaker 1: It was very strange, but her parents passed it off
Speaker 1: as someone who liked to shock people with different out
Speaker 1: their ideas.
Speaker 2: Hang on, I'm going to need to ask more about
Speaker 2: the ancestuous comment. There was a relationship with his family
Speaker 2: was incestuous.
Speaker 1: There was nothing more about it. But she described their
Speaker 1: sex life in ing detail, I think, kind of saying
Speaker 1: that he was like a brother to her. It was
Speaker 1: like Joe didn't say anything at the time and continued eating,
Speaker 1: so she just kind of spoke about all of this
Speaker 1: in great detail.
Speaker 2: Kind of insinuating he is used to it, she speaks
Speaker 2: like that all the time. Or maybe he felt uncomfortable
Speaker 2: so just didn't get involved in the conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it is kind of alleged that he felt
Speaker 1: uncomfortable and that she was quite controlling. She did all
Speaker 1: the talking.
Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with that, Sammy way looking in the
Speaker 2: iron growling and growl for Joe's friends, Anu was confident
Speaker 2: and domineering.
Speaker 1: It was pushing Joe into the background. He was becoming
Speaker 1: less sociable and let Anew take the lead in every
Speaker 1: single conversation. It didn't help when the Chinquas found out
Speaker 1: that Anew was keeping their relationship a secret from her parents.
Speaker 1: They wanted her to prioritize her studies over boys. Joe
Speaker 1: instructed his parents to say if they ever met, the
Speaker 1: Sings to say that he was just a friend of
Speaker 1: a news brother, which is.
Speaker 2: Interesting because why would they meet if it weren't because
Speaker 2: they were dating.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. In case they just dropped in Canberra.
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know that because I was living together.
Speaker 1: They ended up living together.
Speaker 2: You know, I think I reckon the only partner I
Speaker 2: don't know, the only like parents of a partner My
Speaker 2: parents ever met was like at you know, maybe a
Speaker 2: twenty first birthday party, Like until I was living my
Speaker 2: parents would crushing. Yes, yes they weren't invited and made
Speaker 2: them but didn't invite them.
Speaker 1: So the fact that that you know, she didn't want
Speaker 1: to say anything about Joe to any way they were
Speaker 1: living together. Yeah. It made Joe's parents feel a little
Speaker 1: bit off. They didn't like that, and Neew wasn't telling
Speaker 1: anyone about Joe and making him seem really small. They
Speaker 1: noticed that Joe wasn't quite himself and would now fade
Speaker 1: away in the background anytime Joe, anytime I knew was around,
Speaker 1: and New would interrupt every time they tried to talk
Speaker 1: with Joe. One time when Nino the dand was trying
Speaker 1: to have a private conversation with Joe, and You walked
Speaker 1: up behind Joe, hugged him, kissed him, and pulled him away.
Speaker 1: He seemed to the family that Anew was always there
Speaker 1: to snatch Joe away.
Speaker 2: Right, There's not a lot I hate more than that
Speaker 2: level of yuck jealousy. Yeah, I mean murder. I do
Speaker 2: hate you.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: First um, in no particular order.
Speaker 1: Asual, their nightly dinner was often interrupted by a new
Speaker 1: and New eventually went back to Canberra. So this is
Speaker 1: this is you know, the timeline here is that she
Speaker 1: kept coming back to Newcastle at different points. She come
Speaker 1: back for a summer period or any holiday. She'd come
Speaker 1: back she wanted to be with her mum, and then
Speaker 1: she eventually went back to Canberra, four hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: kilometers south, which meant that Joe and her couldn't see
Speaker 1: each other as.
Speaker 2: Often didn't realize it was that far.
Speaker 1: It's a really long way from Yeah. Yeah. He would
Speaker 1: drive five and a half hours to see her on
Speaker 1: a Friday and return early Monday morning to start work
Speaker 1: hardly sleeping.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's a good boy friend.
Speaker 1: Very good boyfriend, very good boyfriend. A new called Joe
Speaker 1: every night, often during the family meal, sometimes after. He
Speaker 1: would go and talk to her every time she called.
Speaker 2: No, sorry, rude, if you're having dinner with your family
Speaker 2: to take the call.
Speaker 1: Later, Maria thought. Marie would often take the phone off
Speaker 1: him and tell a knew to let him eat his meal.
Speaker 2: I am like Maria, Maria's great because it's from my
Speaker 2: said story Marie. I just met a girl named Maria.
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Because of all the calls, their phone bill skyrocketed.
Speaker 1: The calls were excessive, not to mention the expense. Joe
Speaker 1: was spending every weekend to spend time with her back
Speaker 1: in Canberra, and Niel often complained about being sick, which
Speaker 1: crippled her. From time to time. He would drop everything
Speaker 1: when she complained about being sick. Maria worried that Joe
Speaker 1: was exhausting himself and finding it hard to juggle everything
Speaker 1: with all the other things had going on in his life.
Speaker 1: Maria tried to warn Joe not to let Anew control him,
Speaker 1: but he said, don't make me choose. I love you,
Speaker 1: but she needs me. Oh that broke Maria's heart.
Speaker 2: That breaks my heart.
Speaker 1: I am Maria, You're Maria. In September nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 1: Joe finally decided that he was going to move in
Speaker 1: to be with a new He was going to move
Speaker 1: to Canberra. They moved into a semi detached townhouse together
Speaker 1: and even opened up a joint bank account called ANEW
Speaker 1: and Joe's marriage account whoa as while Anew was studying,
Speaker 1: Joe was going to have to be the financial provider.
Speaker 1: Their house was in a bustling part of town near
Speaker 1: the university, in a place called Downer.
Speaker 2: In huge Downer, it sounds like a real upper of
Speaker 2: a town.
Speaker 1: Hey, you should you should? You should say that there?
Speaker 1: I think I did nobe, you should say it there? Ok?
Speaker 1: In Newcastle. At the end of the semester, the couple
Speaker 1: spent three weeks with Joe's family in Newcastle, but Maria
Speaker 1: did not like her. She continued to feel that there
Speaker 1: was something very strange about her.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm going to play devil's advocatire and he's
Speaker 2: giving a little bit of Italian mother loving her son
Speaker 2: and not wanting another woman to take her away as
Speaker 2: well as Yeah, New sounds a bit alarm a lot
Speaker 2: for a couple in the early twenties.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah. Once back in Canberra, things took a downward spiral?
Speaker 2: Was it a bit of a downer?
Speaker 1: Nice one again? You did it again?
Speaker 2: Thank you?
Speaker 1: Yes, it was okay. A New continued to be hyper
Speaker 1: fixated on her weight, excessively, going to the gym and
Speaker 1: watching what she was eating.
Speaker 2: Well, that's sad, it's that's a she's got a mental disorder.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely yeah. She was suffering from bolimia and like
Speaker 1: I said before, her parents she she kind of asked
Speaker 1: her parents time and time again for liposuction. Her dad
Speaker 1: allegedly gave in and helped in nineteen ninety seven, and
Speaker 1: Knew was complaining about chronic fatigue and muscle aches. Her
Speaker 1: health was her obsession and Knew constantly had something wrong
Speaker 1: with her, that she was fixated on but it was
Speaker 1: all psychological. She approached Maria to speak about her car
Speaker 1: accident and how she dealt with the problem she faced
Speaker 1: with her foot. She noticed that Anew was really fidgety
Speaker 1: that time and thought that perhaps she was having some
Speaker 1: kind of drug withdrawal. Robert, the Chinque's godson was really
Speaker 1: concerned about Joe during his visits to Canberra. He watched
Speaker 1: the spark disappear from Joe's eyes. By mid nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 1: Anneu was convinced that she had contracted AIDS, which made
Speaker 1: her focus more and more on her health. Oh God,
Speaker 1: so she always had a new fixation of how sick
Speaker 1: she was and thought it was always something happening.
Speaker 2: Is that like a bit of insinuation, maybe some Monchausen syndrome?
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, they could be that. But also you know
Speaker 1: that there is some kind of drug effect there.
Speaker 2: As well, and medical anxiety.
Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, as she believed her body was shutting down. God,
Speaker 1: she was furious with Joe that didn't seem to care
Speaker 1: enough about her many ailments. When the results came back
Speaker 1: negative about the AIDS, she continued on various other diagnosises, diagnosesses, diagnosis, diagnosis.
Speaker 1: Her parents attempted to have her admitted to a psychiatric facility,
Speaker 1: but she wasn't seen as a threat to herself or
Speaker 1: others and could not be admitted against her will. And
Speaker 1: this is this is what happens. You know, once you're
Speaker 1: over eighteen here in Australia, you cannot be admitted anywhere.
Speaker 2: Against will unless you're deemed.
Speaker 1: Unless you're deemed unfit. Yeah, you can't make choices for yourself.
Speaker 1: And who was taking ipp acac for a period of time.
Speaker 1: She said that Joe would point I'm going to explain that.
Speaker 1: Don't you worry about how Aha? She said that Joe
Speaker 1: had pointed out out this drug to her. Now it
Speaker 1: has been said that perhaps Joan mentioned the drug at
Speaker 1: a dinner party in passing as it's what supermodels take
Speaker 1: to keep weight off. Oh, this is a definition I
Speaker 1: found of the drug. Syrup of Ippacac, or simply ippocac,
Speaker 1: is a drug that was once widely used as an
Speaker 1: ex expertrrent acceptaurrent ecce and a rapid acting emetic. It
Speaker 1: is obtained from the dried rhizome and roots of the
Speaker 1: epicaquana plant, from which it derives its name. It is
Speaker 1: no longer regularly used in medicine.
Speaker 2: So it like an appetite of presidtism.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and kind of like a weight loss thing.
Speaker 1: So a lot of supermodels did it to keep the
Speaker 1: weight off, you know, And the big thing here was that,
Speaker 1: and it was like, oh, we mentioned it as a
Speaker 1: suggestion for me, But it later went on to say
Speaker 1: that he probably just mentioned it at one time and
Speaker 1: she thought, I'll use that. And Neil had been taking
Speaker 1: a lot of drugs for recreational use at the time.
Speaker 1: Drugs were really big at the time at ANU and
Speaker 1: Canberra in general. She would take ecstasy with her previous
Speaker 1: boyfriend Simon. She would stop when she went home to
Speaker 1: her parents and would often have withdrawals at the time.
Speaker 1: Oh dear, her parents are both doctors as well, so
Speaker 1: they've kind of would have seen what was happening. At
Speaker 1: the time, Anew had some building resentment, stating that Joe
Speaker 1: didn't do anything around the house and that she felt
Speaker 1: that she was a housewife. She made another complaint to
Speaker 1: the university counselor, saying that Joe had hit her, yelled
Speaker 1: at her, and abused her. He had blamed her for
Speaker 1: hitting her, and that she couldn't leave him because he
Speaker 1: was financially supporting her. This took place a few months
Speaker 1: before Joe's death.
Speaker 2: Do we know that was allegations?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, since come out and it was sentenced
Speaker 1: that she made that up?
Speaker 2: Is in she admitted to making it up or other
Speaker 2: people up said she.
Speaker 1: Made it up. Yeah, she told the counselor and that
Speaker 1: she was building a case. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh Jesus, okay, I was going to have a believe
Speaker 2: women moment if other people had said, no, actually made
Speaker 2: that up?
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no, it was definitely yeah, something that she
Speaker 1: made up and knew then believed that she had a
Speaker 1: degenerative muscle wasting disease that was fatal and believed that
Speaker 1: she only had a few months to live.
Speaker 2: Does that a bit Munchausen, doesn't It does if she's
Speaker 2: really believing she's got all these things that are wrong.
Speaker 2: Oh dear, is it?
Speaker 1: Or is it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Munchausen by proxy is when a parent or someone
Speaker 2: else but Munchausen.
Speaker 1: Is well, I don't like a hypercontract.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, maybe it's just that, To be fair, I
Speaker 2: think Munchausen is more you kind of believe you've got
Speaker 2: illness and that actually wheels.
Speaker 1: It on, right.
Speaker 2: I think I'm wrong, dear listeners, But yeah, maybe it's
Speaker 2: just HYPOCHONDI Yeah, yeah, like she just kind of felt
Speaker 2: like she had everything.
Speaker 1: She didn't tell her parents what it was exactly, just
Speaker 1: that she was sick. Her parents continued to encourage her
Speaker 1: to go to the doctor time and time again. She
Speaker 1: told her friends, but her friends kind of thought that
Speaker 1: it was a tall tale. So she was known for
Speaker 1: exaggerate exactly.
Speaker 2: Okay, she's got something else again, now.
Speaker 1: Something else again. Yeah, it was a figment of her imagination,
Speaker 1: but it was like she believed it. She started giving
Speaker 1: away her CDs and clothes. She showered up to seven
Speaker 1: times a day. Oh god, she's really obsessive, really obsessive.
Speaker 1: She believed that she got the disease from taking ippocac
Speaker 1: and blamed Joe for that.
Speaker 2: Oh dear.
Speaker 1: She actually told some people that she was going to
Speaker 1: kill Joe. Okay, she also told several people that she
Speaker 1: was going to kill herself, and new made several attempts
Speaker 1: to get a gun. She went, god, yeah, so she
Speaker 1: wanted to kill herself with a gun. That didn't happen,
Speaker 1: and so then she decided she'll go to different dealers
Speaker 1: to get heroin and have a lethal overdose of heroin.
Speaker 1: Someone told her that that's actually a pain free way to.
Speaker 2: Do it, and she had never like she wasn't a
Speaker 2: heroin user.
Speaker 1: No, well, yeah, no, I don't think so. I think
Speaker 1: that was the first time she did heroin. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: other drugs, but not so.
Speaker 2: It was kind of like, I've never done heroin, so
Speaker 2: it would be quite easy to overdose on that. Maybe
Speaker 2: it was the thought she had.
Speaker 1: Well, someone told her that that's how you can kill yourself. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so saying that if you actually had a lethal dose,
Speaker 1: it would be the best way to go be pain free.
Speaker 1: God and Knew would allegedly talk about it, how much
Speaker 1: smarter she was than Joe and constantly put him down
Speaker 1: in front of everyone.
Speaker 2: Again, because you felt so good when your ex boyfriend
Speaker 2: did that to you. Let's go and do it to
Speaker 2: your co.
Speaker 1: Let's never think about that. She does far worse, but
Speaker 1: let's ever think about that as well. Joe was getting
Speaker 1: sick of the relationship and wanted an out. He was
Speaker 1: starting to make plans to break it off. He had
Speaker 1: purchased a new car, which was the first part of
Speaker 1: his exit plan. And the first time you could see
Speaker 1: the joy back in his eyes. Many have since stated
Speaker 1: that a new knew. Who knew? That's a hard one there, Sorry,
Speaker 1: everyone knew that he was going to leave. In fact,
Speaker 1: in his diary he had a note that he was
Speaker 1: going to pack up and leave. On the Monday, Joe's mother, Maria,
Speaker 1: had noticed that most of his things were gone in
Speaker 1: the house, like he had already been packing up and
Speaker 1: trying to leave. And Who spoke quite openly.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm so sorry. He was just crawling along the ground,
Speaker 2: but with his leg both his front and back legs
Speaker 2: stretched out as far as he could possibly do, Like
Speaker 2: that's kind of.
Speaker 1: Cool, say no comment. And wh spoke quite openly about
Speaker 1: killing herself and a suicide packed between her and Joe.
Speaker 1: She would speak quite openly about it, but no one
Speaker 1: ever paid attention.
Speaker 2: So, I'm so sorry, I'm laughing, He digs, and I'll
Speaker 2: stop looking at him, obviously not laughing about this story.
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry, bless you more so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she spoke openly about wanting to take her own
Speaker 1: life with a suicide pact with Joe. She would speak
Speaker 1: quite openly about it, but no one paid any attention.
Speaker 1: To her anymore.
Speaker 2: Oh god, it sounds like a proper boy who cried
Speaker 2: wolf at this.
Speaker 1: Point, absolutely, and who was diagnosed with a personality disorder
Speaker 1: and depression. But a lot of people around her said
Speaker 1: that she was just being dramatic and often lied about
Speaker 1: what was going on. Oh God, and what she was
Speaker 1: going to do at that point as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety seven, a new told a friend that
Speaker 1: she hated Joe and wanted to go on a rampage
Speaker 1: and kill Joe, her ex boyfriend Simon, and all of
Speaker 1: the doctors that had misdiagnosed her and did not take
Speaker 1: her seriously. She said, I studied psychiatric texts and it
Speaker 1: wouldn't be too hard to convince someone you're insane.
Speaker 2: Oh, oh god, I'm sorry. Like I'm flicking between oh no,
Speaker 2: the poor thing and oh yeah.
Speaker 1: She visited the library with her close friend and fellow student,
Speaker 1: martav Row. Great name, great name. A little bit about MARTYVI.
Speaker 1: Martive was an only child until the birth of a
Speaker 1: much younger sibling who was disabled. The family's hopes then
Speaker 1: focused on Martive and all pressure that seemed to be
Speaker 1: placed on her. She was a great tennis player growing
Speaker 1: up and a good student, although she didn't get high
Speaker 1: enough a high enough score after high school to get
Speaker 1: into medicine, so decided she'd do law instead.
Speaker 2: Imagine a law I guess I'll just do law.
Speaker 1: Her father was a well respected teacher and her mother
Speaker 1: a doctor. They both retired by the time that Martivi
Speaker 1: was at in university, but by the time the trial
Speaker 1: began they both had to start working again to pay
Speaker 1: for her legal fees and a defense. In the family
Speaker 1: home there was strictly no smoking and no drinking.
Speaker 2: Is it's a friend of our news, he's a friend
Speaker 2: of a nurse? Yep.
Speaker 1: Martivi was the quieter, more studious of her in Anu,
Speaker 1: and she followed her blindly. It was since been kind
Speaker 1: of stated that she was a bit of a doormat
Speaker 1: and was constantly walked on by stronger people. So Anu
Speaker 1: and Martave sourced a book about the individual's right to die.
Speaker 1: It contained information about assisted suicide and legislation. They photocopied
Speaker 1: several pages of this book. During this time, her parents
Speaker 1: tried to have her committed to a psychiatric facility again
Speaker 1: without her consent. This time this had to go through
Speaker 1: a magistrate, and before this long long approval process. Joe
Speaker 1: Chinque would be dead.
Speaker 2: Oh shit.
Speaker 1: Her parents tried to have her committed to a psychiatric
Speaker 1: facility again without her consent. This time this had to
Speaker 1: go through a magistrate. And before this long long approval process,
Speaker 1: Joe chinkwe would be dead, oh shit? And who told
Speaker 1: several people that Joe and her would be overdosing together
Speaker 1: in a suicide pact. She and Joe, sorry, sorry, sorry
Speaker 1: that she and Joe would be overdosing in a suicide pact.
Speaker 1: But Joe had no idea about this.
Speaker 2: But that's not a suicide packed then suicide.
Speaker 1: She was telling people to get them on kind of
Speaker 1: so that they would not raise aus ficion with Joe,
Speaker 1: which is just sorry.
Speaker 2: So she was saying, it's a suicide pact, so don't
Speaker 2: say anything.
Speaker 1: Don't say anything, Okay, far out.
Speaker 2: So it's obviously not a suicide pact, but that's what
Speaker 2: she was telling us.
Speaker 1: She told other people that she was going to drug
Speaker 1: him so that he was not aware that she was
Speaker 1: killing herself. So an another part of what she was
Speaker 1: saying was I'm going to kill myself with Joe would
Speaker 1: get too upset, So what I'm gonna do is I'm
Speaker 1: gonna drug him with row hipnole in his coffee. He's
Speaker 1: nightly coffee. He's one of tho people that has coffee.
Speaker 2: Weirdo.
Speaker 1: I don't understand.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no Italian Italian.
Speaker 1: It's Italian, not a weirdo Italian.
Speaker 2: Sometimes they're confused.
Speaker 1: A new purchased another graham of heroin.
Speaker 2: Hang on, could we just go back to the I'll
Speaker 2: drug him because they'll get too upset. So it would
Speaker 2: be much better if he wakes up from a drugged
Speaker 2: stupor not knowing why he passed out and found his
Speaker 2: girlfriend dead. Yeah, that's maybe worse.
Speaker 1: It's a perfect plan. I don't I don't really, I
Speaker 1: don't really understand. I think she was I don't think
Speaker 1: she's thinking clearly of this, And I think that this
Speaker 1: was part of her plan that she thought and Martivey
Speaker 1: was going along.
Speaker 2: For the ride, like willingly sorry, not willingly knowingly or
Speaker 2: was she just kind of thinking, my friend's just kind
Speaker 2: of talk and smoke again.
Speaker 1: There's a bit of that. There's a bit of who knows,
Speaker 1: there's a bit of who knows your honor, who her magistrate?
Speaker 1: And magistrate? You can I can I raise this. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I think in this it was she kind
Speaker 1: of always thought that a New was talking smack. She
Speaker 1: she said this several times before. However, she did continually
Speaker 1: tell people throughout all of this that it.
Speaker 2: Told people that this is what I knew was saying,
Speaker 2: that's what I was doing. Okay.
Speaker 1: A New purchased a graham of heroin. The dealer asked
Speaker 1: why she needed so much, and she said, someone's coming
Speaker 1: with me. The dealer asked if a New intended to
Speaker 1: end her own life, and she said that she did,
Speaker 1: but she would never reveal who the other person was.
Speaker 2: And the dealer still sold it to her.
Speaker 1: A dealer is or what's going to sell it?
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, that's a good point. There is.
Speaker 1: I don't think with a dealer there is anything.
Speaker 2: Deal was like, I just wanted to have a good
Speaker 2: time and that's all I care about.
Speaker 1: House is for? Who's that for? Good point? Good point?
Speaker 1: Good point? Good Now what we are going to go
Speaker 1: is the first part of this horrible, horrible, horrible event
Speaker 1: titled the First Dinner Party. Oh October Sunday, Okay, in
Speaker 1: the weirdest way. October Sunday, nineteenth, Joe visited his parents.
Speaker 2: In Newcastle Sunday, October nineteen.
Speaker 1: Easier Sunday, October nineteen, beautiful Joe, I'll do it one
Speaker 1: more time.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: Sunday, October nineteenth, Joe visited his parents in Newcastle. He
Speaker 1: told his mum that he and anew were hosting a
Speaker 1: dinner party the following evening back in Canberra. He wanted
Speaker 1: to know if his mum had any meals prepared that
Speaker 1: he could serve his guests. So what a young Isewan boy?
Speaker 2: If such? Did I tell you? Bo? I love that Mama.
Speaker 1: Please please to Newcastle, sorry not to Sydney, So.
Speaker 2: Take your home cooked meals four hundred and something.
Speaker 1: So he wanted to know if she had any pre
Speaker 1: prepared meals so she could serve all of his guests
Speaker 1: for a dinner party.
Speaker 2: Don't feel like she would have?
Speaker 1: Well, Maria offered to cook something. Yeahad he'd pick up
Speaker 1: some fried chicken on the way home dinner party if
Speaker 1: she was getting fried And.
Speaker 2: It's not comparable to Maria's beautiful Italian food. No beautiful food, Maria,
Speaker 2: I'll have your Italian food plan. Well.
Speaker 1: The beautiful thing about this story, and there is only
Speaker 1: kind of one, is that Helen Ghana got to spend
Speaker 1: quite a lot of time with Maria and Maria would
Speaker 1: always cook for her over Maria, Maria is Beautiful. October twentieth,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven. Dinner party Monday was set to be
Speaker 1: held and everyone showed up fully aware of a new's
Speaker 1: a new a news mental state. Martivi turned up with
Speaker 1: one of her friends, Olivia, who had not met Joe
Speaker 1: or anew before.
Speaker 2: Sorry when you're aware of her mental state, meaning that
Speaker 2: she wasn't in a good place at your time, or
Speaker 2: knowing what her plans were both What, No, I don't
Speaker 2: believe that. I can't believe that. Yeah, so they've come
Speaker 2: to a dinner party knowing.
Speaker 1: Martav has told everybody exactly why they're going along.
Speaker 2: We're going to this dinner party tonight, awards and a
Speaker 2: Nu is going to drug her boyfriend with rehypnot.
Speaker 1: No, not that there's going to be suicide packed after.
Speaker 2: What the fuck? Why would you go to that dinner party?
Speaker 1: Well, this is the thing everyone went. It was a
Speaker 1: more curiosity.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: Before the dinner, Martav showed her a needle mark in
Speaker 1: her skin, explaining that Aniu had been practicing injecting on
Speaker 1: her to practice for her suicide. She explained to Olivia
Speaker 1: that the dinner was a final dinner before Aneu and
Speaker 1: Joe's joined packed and.
Speaker 2: Olivia is a random friend who came with MARTIVI that
Speaker 2: who didn't know the others.
Speaker 1: That's right, No, sorry, he was actually visiting from out
Speaker 1: of town. I think it was that friend there, Sammy.
Speaker 2: If you invited me to a dinner party with a
Speaker 2: friend and they're like on the way, you were like, oh,
Speaker 2: by the way, the friends are going to kill themselves afterwards,
Speaker 2: what would you say, I won't come, thank you very much?
Speaker 1: Will you jump out of the card? Stop dropping roll?
Speaker 2: I'd stopped up and roll, and then I would get
Speaker 2: your mum to make me dinner, me and my whole family.
Speaker 1: You know what. Nothing against my mother, but I don't
Speaker 1: think it'd be a beautiful meal, like Maria's cooking.
Speaker 2: Better than mine.
Speaker 1: Anu told Olivia and Martavi that she had prepared too
Speaker 1: much food, and that they had that they should go
Speaker 1: and knock on the doors of nearby people and get
Speaker 1: them to come.
Speaker 2: It's going on. This is the weirdest store I've ever heard.
Speaker 1: Rumors had spread. By that point of the news, intentions
Speaker 1: for that night, spurring other students, some of which were
Speaker 1: total strangers, to attend in some kind of morbid curiosity.
Speaker 2: What are you talking about, Sammy?
Speaker 1: This is why this case is so bizarre. And through
Speaker 1: Helen Ganna's book, she says, why did these people not
Speaker 1: do more? Joe Chinque was dead. That's what she kind
Speaker 1: of repeats throughout the book, and it's.
Speaker 2: Very powerful love the power of that. It's the effect
Speaker 2: that I need the answer. I don't just want no question.
Speaker 1: Giving lawyers and a lot of them have since spoken
Speaker 1: out about it. Some of them have not what what that.
Speaker 1: They all wanted to go and see why the people
Speaker 1: invited all new of a news plans to take her
Speaker 1: and Joe's life. They all believed it was some kind
Speaker 1: of fairwell party. Now the only person that didn't know
Speaker 1: again was Joe chinquay yucky.
Speaker 2: I hate this, and.
Speaker 1: New made it clear to everyone invited that Joe was
Speaker 1: in on the pact. They appeared really loving towards each
Speaker 1: other all night, which made a lot of people who
Speaker 1: intended to believe it was all now a harmless joke.
Speaker 1: So they went along and then they went, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: maybe it's a joke. All a lot.
Speaker 2: I feel like, I mean, as I've just very obviously said,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't go anyway, but I feel like if they
Speaker 2: were seeing me really lovey and nice, that would almost
Speaker 2: make me believe it more, because you often hear the
Speaker 2: people who have decided they're going to take their own
Speaker 2: lives are quite happy and at peace and COMFORTA last
Speaker 2: days well because.
Speaker 1: He didn't know what was going on, but you know,
Speaker 1: but maybe they could eat both of them. They're both happy.
Speaker 2: But the guests thought he did know. Yeah, yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think I would go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: they've decided to do this, and then oh god, yeah,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't do that again. I wouldn't be there.
Speaker 1: Martave drove quite a few of the guests home, telling
Speaker 1: them that the suicide was going ahead. Later that night,
Speaker 1: a few of the people asked if they should seek
Speaker 1: medical assistance, but Martive told them not to a few
Speaker 1: of the people thought that it was a news choice
Speaker 1: if she really wanted to do that, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: their place to get involved or intervene. Ah, yes, it was,
Speaker 1: it's well. That night, a new crushed sedatives into Joe's
Speaker 1: drink so that he would drift off. She then fetched
Speaker 1: a pre prepared ringe, but she struggled to find the
Speaker 1: right vein. Joe got up in the morning and went
Speaker 1: to work, seemingly unaware of what had happened.
Speaker 2: Oh by God.
Speaker 1: Akneu called MARTIVI and told her what happened. Martive was
Speaker 1: doing work experience at the Community and Health Services Complaints Commission. Ironic,
Speaker 1: she told two colleagues that something really serious had happened
Speaker 1: the night before and was paranoid the police were going
Speaker 1: to come after Tell the.
Speaker 2: Police, Tell the police. She told me to tell your colleagues,
Speaker 2: tell the police.
Speaker 1: It was the major crime of the century. Ah and
Speaker 1: it had to do with revenge. Ha ha and New
Speaker 1: asked one of her heroin dealer friends to source her
Speaker 1: some row hipnol. The friend had no problem getting it.
Speaker 1: She got fifteen tablets. When paired with heroin, only one
Speaker 1: tablet was necessary. Jesus so that the heroin had actually
Speaker 1: congealed and she couldn't get it to work. It had
Speaker 1: been too long in the syringe and she couldn't get
Speaker 1: the heroin. She couldn't actually get it to inject. So
Speaker 1: Joe was knocked out after having in his morning coffee,
Speaker 1: woke up the next morning and went, oh, we probably
Speaker 1: felt a bit groggy and as when he had no
Speaker 1: idea that it happened. A few days later, the same
Speaker 1: guests was surprised to receive another invitation, all of them
Speaker 1: all the same guests yep, for I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's all the same guests, but a lot of the
Speaker 1: same people for Friday, October twenty.
Speaker 2: Fourth, Oh my god, same week the.
Speaker 1: Second dinner party. Yep, Monday was the first one.
Speaker 2: And then I hate this story.
Speaker 1: Despite the unsettling knowledge of their plans, they went along.
Speaker 1: The guests were told again that she was planning to
Speaker 1: take her and Joe's lives. Joe returned home to see
Speaker 1: a full house of people. He was surprised. He didn't
Speaker 1: know about the second dinner party, but went along with it.
Speaker 1: He was gracious and a sociable host.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, if I came home and there was
Speaker 2: a house full of people eating cracked and.
Speaker 1: That fried chicken again. He was talking excitedly about his
Speaker 1: new car and his upcoming holiday to Queensland. Martivy told
Speaker 1: her friend Olivia that the plan was going ahead for
Speaker 1: real this time, but Olivia dismissed her, saying, people who
Speaker 1: are going to do this sort of thing don't just
Speaker 1: talk about it. They go ahead and do.
Speaker 2: It, or they're only talking about it. Yeah again, I
Speaker 2: suppose that. I feel like that's what I.
Speaker 1: Would say happened once before the year. Oh okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it's lot of one.
Speaker 2: Of her things that she just talks about.
Speaker 1: And she did this, and she Martavey was certain that
Speaker 1: there was nothing she could do to stop it. Another
Speaker 1: guest thought it couldn't be true, and others thought it
Speaker 1: was another one of a news tall tales. The couple
Speaker 1: interacted exactly the same that night. They were both happy
Speaker 1: and bubbly.
Speaker 2: Which is interesting when we've just said that Joe had
Speaker 2: been planning to break up with her. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe he was acting for his friends. I don't know. Maybe,
Speaker 1: I don't know, who knows. The party continued into the
Speaker 1: early hours without incident. After a while, people started heading home.
Speaker 1: At six am the following morning, Martivi arrived home and
Speaker 1: told one of her friends that anew had put ten
Speaker 1: rote hypnal tablets into Joe's coffee and tried to inject
Speaker 1: him with a lethal dose of heroin.
Speaker 2: Was Martaby saying this because she was there or because
Speaker 2: that's what Anu said she was going to do.
Speaker 1: She was apparently there at the time because left after
Speaker 1: she did that.
Speaker 2: Oh shit, yeah, that's accessory.
Speaker 1: Yes, it didn't work. It's amazing. It wasn't his time
Speaker 1: to go.
Speaker 2: Marvy said that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. When the friend asked why Anu was trying to
Speaker 1: hurt Joe, Martavi said, Joe's the problem. She wants to
Speaker 1: take Joe with her. It's because she blames him for
Speaker 1: her condition.
Speaker 2: Oh no.
Speaker 1: Martavy decided at that point that she wasn't going to
Speaker 1: be involved in any further plan, so her friend kind
Speaker 1: of talked her out of it and said, what are
Speaker 1: you doing?
Speaker 2: Hang on? Sorry, after being there to witness someone give someone.
Speaker 1: Tenro hipnos, yeah, tenor hypnos and then heroins. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: didn't see the heroin but.
Speaker 2: Okay, and said, you know what, I've let my friend
Speaker 2: taught me out of doing that ever again.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna do it anymore.
Speaker 2: I don't like Martiby.
Speaker 1: As the day continued, word of a news plan spread.
Speaker 1: One friend threatened to contact the police, but a new
Speaker 1: found out about this and talk to the friend out
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 2: Hang on sirs, Joe, do we know what Joe's condition
Speaker 2: is at this point? Okay?
Speaker 1: And New told the friend that she would do nothing
Speaker 1: to hurt Joe. And who told this person that they
Speaker 1: were going to be engaged? Why would she hurt him?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 1: A New admitted to these concerned people that she had
Speaker 1: given Joe the sedatives, but she had only done it
Speaker 1: so that he would be a s when she tried
Speaker 1: to end her own life. She convinced them that Joe
Speaker 1: was not in any danger and she would confess to
Speaker 1: him about spiking his drink. Everyone decided to let this go.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, so the news at that point had only
Speaker 1: spread of the temper hypnoal tablets. But I'm sure at
Speaker 1: that point it was I'm sure at that point though
Speaker 1: it wasn't ten like I'm sure.
Speaker 2: People, Oh she drugged him to put him say exactly.
Speaker 1: At ten nineteen that evening, Anu called her friend Len,
Speaker 1: who was fully aware of the sinister plans, but expressed
Speaker 1: his opinion to others that it was just a New
Speaker 1: being dramatic and a desperate cry for attention.
Speaker 2: Ten pm the following night, Saturday night.
Speaker 1: Neil asked how strong ra hypnol was. She said, that
Speaker 1: Joe had been asleep for a really long time, about
Speaker 1: fifteen hours, and was now groggy and couldn't keep his
Speaker 1: eyes open. She was worried about what she had done,
Speaker 1: but Len told her that she wouldn't have caused any
Speaker 1: long term damage. Joe took the phone and said, hey, mate,
Speaker 1: my mind is one hundred percent functional. Joe said that apparently,
Speaker 1: yet my body just wants to sleep like crazy. That's all.
Speaker 1: She's worried for nothing. Now. I'm very confused about that, apparently,
Speaker 1: he I don't know if she ever told him that
Speaker 1: she had given him that much for hypnol, but it
Speaker 1: seems like she did confess that to him, told him
Speaker 1: that on the phone, I gave you a hypnole. Blah
Speaker 1: blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: That's why you can't stay awake.
Speaker 1: That's right, I think she had told him at that point.
Speaker 1: After midnight, Anew called another friend, asking if it was impossible,
Speaker 1: if it was possible to inject heroin into your legs
Speaker 1: or the backs of your arm. The next morning, Sunday,
Speaker 1: October twenty sixth, nineteen ninety seven, a new visited Martavi
Speaker 1: and told her that Joe wasn't breathing and she needed
Speaker 1: money to get some heroin to take her own life.
Speaker 1: Martave drove her to an EIGHTE and withdrew two hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty dollars cash.
Speaker 2: Sorry, get alone, I'm so sorry, Marty By Martive can get.
Speaker 1: Fucked, yeash and get fucked. At nine am, a new
Speaker 1: purchased half a gram of heroin. She was anxious and
Speaker 1: kept saying today's the day. Anu continually called Martive that day.
Speaker 1: Martyve told Anu to leave her alone, but eventually caved
Speaker 1: after Anu was extremely persistent. Martive went to pick her up.
Speaker 2: So she was like, leave me alone, Go kill yourself
Speaker 2: in peace. Yeah, fuck this girl.
Speaker 1: They both had a heated argument. While Anu appeared to
Speaker 1: be very distressed. Martivi went to speak to Len and
Speaker 1: told him that after Joe awoke the night before, he
Speaker 1: told Anew that he was going to leave her. Martivi
Speaker 1: then explained that a new tried to kill Joe with heroin.
Speaker 1: Len had been convinced it was all a tall tale
Speaker 1: up until this point. He suggested calling a news parents
Speaker 1: to tell them in case. Anew later claimed that Joe
Speaker 1: had injected himself. Lenn and Martivey went for a drive
Speaker 1: just in case anew tried to involve them further. During
Speaker 1: that drive, Martivi told Lenn that she had actually been
Speaker 1: to their house earlier that day and had witnessed Joe
Speaker 1: unconscious on their bed.
Speaker 2: She'd seen that, She's seen.
Speaker 1: That, and she went to the house, saw him unconscious,
Speaker 1: not moving, and left.
Speaker 2: And then was like, I don't want to help anymore.
Speaker 1: I don't know anymore.
Speaker 2: Took her to get cash now to him and all that.
Speaker 1: Car to keep the car. His skin was pale, his
Speaker 1: lips were blue, but he was still breathing, and decided
Speaker 1: to leave anywhere.
Speaker 2: This is the person who wanted to study medicine.
Speaker 1: That's right, right, a new phone, the friend who had
Speaker 1: supplied the Rowe hypnole. She was advised to call an ambulance,
Speaker 1: but I knew, said that she couldn't because Joe didn't
Speaker 1: know and he would be furious. She said that Joe
Speaker 1: didn't know what didn't know, that that she had given
Speaker 1: him the hypno.
Speaker 2: That if don't call the ambulance for Joe, because he'll
Speaker 2: be mad at me for giving him a hypno.
Speaker 1: That's right?
Speaker 2: Is this story?
Speaker 1: She said that Joe was taking one breath every ten seconds.
Speaker 1: The friend said that she needed to do mouth to
Speaker 1: mouth resuscitation. Joe began vomiting black liquid. The friend told
Speaker 1: her time and time again to hang up and call
Speaker 1: an ambulance, but a news said it was all too late.
Speaker 1: The friend then told a new that if she didn't
Speaker 1: call the ambulance then she might have a murder change
Speaker 1: to deal with. At this point, a new disconnected the call.
Speaker 1: At twelve ten PMS. Is on the Sunday, a new
Speaker 1: called emergency services.
Speaker 2: So we're bordering on twenty four hours from when she
Speaker 2: first gave him a hypno.
Speaker 1: Hypno, not the heroine, but yeah, the rapnoeah louck it
Speaker 1: hell and just watched him. Was absolutely hysterical on the phone,
Speaker 1: which we spoke about at the start. She continually changed
Speaker 1: the address or kind of justs gave a fake address.
Speaker 1: When asked for her name, she said her name was Olivia.
Speaker 1: The dispatcher told her to provide mouth to mouth resuscitation,
Speaker 1: but she couldn't because he was coughing up so much
Speaker 1: blood and his teeth were cleanched shut. When paramedics are
Speaker 1: coughing up blood, I don't know, I don't know. This
Speaker 1: is this is what's bullshit from I know. When paramedics arrived,
Speaker 1: a new waved them down. Joe was lying diagonally across
Speaker 1: the bed, naked from the waist down. He could not
Speaker 1: be resuscitated, and knew begged them to keep trying, throwing
Speaker 1: herself onto his body. It wasn't supposed to happen this way,
Speaker 1: she said. We were supposed to go together. Oh God.
Speaker 1: When police arrived, they had to physically remove anew from
Speaker 1: the bedroom. She explained that she had given Joe four
Speaker 1: or hypnoal tablets and then injected him. She was taken
Speaker 1: into custody.
Speaker 2: She said that to police straight away, straight away, that's interesting.
Speaker 1: On the twenty sixth of October, Joe's mother, Maria was
Speaker 1: on the edge. Joe called her always to check in
Speaker 1: every Sunday, but this time he hadn't. When Joe still
Speaker 1: hadn't called, Maria called Joe, but was met with the
Speaker 1: police officers. Oh god, God, blood ran cold. At the
Speaker 1: same time, there was an officer knocking on her door.
Speaker 1: The police told Maria and Nino that they were there
Speaker 1: about Joe. Maria begged them not to tell her anything more.
Speaker 1: She knew that Joe was gone, but she did not
Speaker 1: want to hear it. Family and friends traveled to the
Speaker 1: margue to identify Joe. Robert, the Chinkway's godson, could hardly
Speaker 1: believe it. He had seen Joe smiling like he used
Speaker 1: to when he spoke about his car. Police explained that
Speaker 1: foul play was suspected and anew had been taken into custody.
Speaker 1: Toxicology are showed high levels of heroin and roe hypnol.
Speaker 1: It was so ro hypnol itself is ten times stronger
Speaker 1: than vallium.
Speaker 2: Oh wow. So yeah, it's probably a stupid question. I'm
Speaker 2: sure the answer is for sedation. But what is very
Speaker 2: hypno used for except drugging someone unwittingly? I don't know.
Speaker 1: It is a very strong sedative, I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: think we have it here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anymore if you only hear about it used as
Speaker 2: it like for exactly so strong drugging people in nightclubs
Speaker 2: and exactly and it's you know, ten times stronger than
Speaker 2: valium just one. So yeah, that's what I mean. I
Speaker 2: almost feel like I don't know why it exists, which
Speaker 2: is I understand it's an ignorant comment, but it just
Speaker 2: feels like, why can people get it?
Speaker 1: At all. Yeah, it must be used if you have
Speaker 1: a prescription for it must be used for something. But
Speaker 1: I don't really know, Like there.
Speaker 2: Was it fentanyl that Michael Jackson, Yeah, yeah, maybe that
Speaker 2: kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Maybe that. Yeah, So it didn't take too long for
Speaker 1: Martiv row, a New's best friend to be brought in
Speaker 1: for questioning. Detectives soon learned that Joe's murder had been
Speaker 1: planned for months. Detectives soon learned that Joe's murder had
Speaker 1: been planned for months and Knew had studied suicide methods
Speaker 1: extensively and how to inject someone with heroin.
Speaker 2: Then it's not suicide if it's injecting someone else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Anew needed to rely on her friend, Martivi, who
Speaker 1: had rehypnol, who had connections on how to obtain it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, Martiv's friend who actually had the hypnoal and
Speaker 1: how to obtain it. At both dinner parties, a New
Speaker 1: laced Joe's coffee with a sedative. So first it was
Speaker 1: it was another sedative, and then the second time it
Speaker 1: was hypnoal. The first attempt to inject him with the
Speaker 1: heroin didn't work, it had congealed inside of the syringe.
Speaker 1: On the second evening, a new managed to inject a
Speaker 1: fatal amount of heroin in his bloodstream while he lay
Speaker 1: paralyzed and unable to save himself. Martive was taken to
Speaker 1: the station and was also charged for the murder of
Speaker 1: Joe Chinque. Martavi said, I tried at every stage to intercede.
Speaker 1: Three days later, her parents secured her one hundred thousand
Speaker 1: dollars bail, which she had to remain under supervision. Most
Speaker 1: disturbing of all, ANWSE sat and watched as Joe suffered
Speaker 1: in pain for a very very long time. It was
Speaker 1: only when his lips started turning blue and started coughing blood,
Speaker 1: and people repeatedly taught her to call paramedics that a
Speaker 1: new called an acquaintance and told her that there had
Speaker 1: been an overdose.
Speaker 2: Called an acquaintance, well called her.
Speaker 1: I remember she called the friend and said, oh what
Speaker 1: I do? Pressure second was eaten up with the wild
Speaker 1: goose chase. She put the paramedics through, giving incorrect information
Speaker 1: and even referring to herself as Olivia on the phone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to know more about that.
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Joe died of a cardiac arrest.
Speaker 2: Police is that the most is that commonly what an
Speaker 2: overdose would cause.
Speaker 1: I think I think it's pretty common. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it is pretty common. Yeah, yeah, especially when you can't
Speaker 1: you can't really breathe properly. And there's yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: like with Yeah. Police searched Joe's diary and found an
Speaker 1: appointment scheduled get ready to move move urgent today. Joe
Speaker 1: was obviously trying to leave a new he wanted out.
Speaker 2: I mean that's interesting in itself. One, why do you
Speaker 2: put that in your diary when you live with someone?
Speaker 2: Two he was happy at the dinner party. By all
Speaker 2: accounts from other people. I don't know. Maybe they've said
Speaker 2: that because they feel like they realize they might be
Speaker 2: access to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know people, do you know, playne in
Speaker 1: front of other people if there's other people around. I
Speaker 1: think sure, true. True. One year later, Anew and MARTIVI
Speaker 1: were scheduled to be tried together.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, both charged with murder.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is what was going to happen. Yeah. Anew
Speaker 1: was held in custody a new phone of friend asking
Speaker 1: them to bring her all the high court cases where
Speaker 1: somebody had pled not guilty due to reasons of insanity.
Speaker 2: I decided that's what she's going to thought, you're going.
Speaker 1: To go with. The joint trial began on October sixth,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight. At the Supreme Court, anw pled not
Speaker 1: guilty for reasons of diminished responsibility. This meant that she
Speaker 1: admitted to what she had done, but she could not
Speaker 1: be held liable for murder because of her mental state
Speaker 1: at the time. She claimed that she was suffering from
Speaker 1: untreated borderline personality disorder, a major depressive disorder, which include
Speaker 1: explosive anger, unstable relationships, chronic fears of abandonment, and a
Speaker 1: false sense of reality.
Speaker 2: I don't really know if any of them would.
Speaker 1: Justify murder killing someone, No, exactly. Borderline personal disorder is
Speaker 1: an interesting one, Like I don't really know heaps about that.
Speaker 1: I certainly know people who have had borderline personal disorder,
Speaker 1: and it is it is a very heartbreaking thing to see.
Speaker 2: Yes, I can't think of a case I've heard of
Speaker 2: where that's been successfully as a defense for killing somebody.
Speaker 2: But I could be very wrong. I just can't think
Speaker 2: of the time I've heard that far. It may have.
Speaker 1: The dealer who supplied the heroine was granted immunity for
Speaker 1: providing evidence against the pair. Many people came forward saying
Speaker 1: that they knew of the plans and that Martavi assisted
Speaker 1: in carrying out the plan. When pressed, when no one
Speaker 1: came forward at the time, no one could provide a
Speaker 1: sufficient explanation. That's why you got swangry before. We can't
Speaker 1: provide one. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2: I'm still waiting for you too. You haven't finished this
Speaker 2: story yet, and if you don't provide me what, I'm
Speaker 2: going to be really mad.
Speaker 1: During the fourth week of the trial, the judge realized
Speaker 1: that that mounting evidence against the pair would likely cause
Speaker 1: unfair prejudice against MARTIVI. He terminated the proceedings, deciding that
Speaker 1: Martive and Anu should be tried separately at a later date.
Speaker 2: Wait, what so I understand.
Speaker 1: That realized that Martive should not be tried with a new.
Speaker 2: You can't do that four weeks into her trial.
Speaker 1: Surely, well apparently they did.
Speaker 2: What This whole thing is so confusing, Like none of
Speaker 2: the things you're saying sound like they're real.
Speaker 1: I know, they're just words, I say the prosecution.
Speaker 2: Oh, not long enough now. I just listened to the
Speaker 2: words you say, and then after a while I go, wait.
Speaker 1: Wait, what the prosecution offered Anew the opportunity to plead
Speaker 1: to manslaughter for a reduced sentence, but she refused, maintaining
Speaker 1: her innocence. While awaiting her second trial, Anew had a
Speaker 1: letter seized from her locker. It read, I've decided to
Speaker 1: write down how this happened to get it clear in
Speaker 1: my mind. Also, she went on to describe all of
Speaker 1: the events that led to Joe's death, starting with her
Speaker 1: and Martave going to the library to find the book
Speaker 1: on a Sister Dying. She said that she had initially
Speaker 1: intended to end her own life, but then after reading
Speaker 1: about partners were married who had married a couple of
Speaker 1: years after their loved ones had died of suicide, she
Speaker 1: decided it was only fair that Joe would die with her.
Speaker 2: So that's not your choice to be heartbroken.
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: No, that is not your choice.
Speaker 1: From then, all she thought about was death. She wrote,
Speaker 1: Didn't I think at the time that these friends of
Speaker 1: mine were helping me to die? Didn't I stop and
Speaker 1: think that Joe was helping me to live?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: I felt compelled to do it because I thought everyone
Speaker 1: was against me and only cared if Joe died or not.
Speaker 2: No, sorry, I'm aware, and at the start you said
Speaker 2: you know compassion or understanding for her, and maybe we're
Speaker 2: getting there, but right now, quit with your poetic bullshit
Speaker 2: and now and just admit guilt.
Speaker 1: She goes on, Then, I wasn't sure whether to call
Speaker 1: the ambulance because Martavy said that if you call the ambulance,
Speaker 1: he will leave you and put you.
Speaker 2: Oh my God.
Speaker 1: In a letter addressed to her mother, a new wrote,
Speaker 1: the most wonderful man in the world loved me so much,
Speaker 1: would have made a perfect husband and father ruined, perfect
Speaker 1: life ruined. Now everyone is better off than me when
Speaker 1: I had it all. I bet everyone is laughing at
Speaker 1: me now because of my own artist stupidity and selfishness.
Speaker 1: You must start preparing for my death. Now my life
Speaker 1: is over. I made the wrong choice when so many
Speaker 1: others were available at the time, worked with Druggies rather
Speaker 1: than Joe. Should have protected him and worked with him.
Speaker 1: Now so many lives are ruined.
Speaker 2: She's written this letter to her mother mother more than
Speaker 2: a year after Yeah, Oh God.
Speaker 1: A new solo trial began in March nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 1: It was a judge only trial.
Speaker 2: Her plays and.
Speaker 1: There's also no way, yeah, that you could have any
Speaker 1: kind of person in the camera that wouldn't have known
Speaker 1: about you exactly. Her plea was not guilty. The defense
Speaker 1: stated that she suffered from borderline personal disorder and severe
Speaker 1: oppression since her teens. She was in a delusional world
Speaker 1: where she truly believed that she was going to die
Speaker 1: from a disease. She was suffering from a depressive illness
Speaker 1: that culminated in Joe's death. Oh my God. Psychiatrist spoke
Speaker 1: of a personal disorder as exacerbated by her substance abuse
Speaker 1: and bolimia. If she had sought how help, it would
Speaker 1: have changed everything. The psychiatrist stated that Anew should be
Speaker 1: put into a facility, not to prison. The prosecution argued
Speaker 1: that a News actions were not impacted by her mental
Speaker 1: state and she was perfectly capable of making rational decisions.
Speaker 1: This was proven by her waiting to call an ambulance
Speaker 1: and by the time she did it it seemed as
Speaker 1: though she was hindering efforts to saves to save Joe's
Speaker 1: life by giving false information. They argued that she was
Speaker 1: depressed she would have actually killed herself after Joe not
Speaker 1: made not made her up, sorry, not made a decision
Speaker 1: for herself after that fact not to go. Her diara
Speaker 1: was also displayed, which was destroyed and pieced back together,
Speaker 1: which showed a vengeance against Joe. She also watched him die,
Speaker 1: which was an act of extraordinary cruelty. Various witnesses described
Speaker 1: Anew as psycho dramatic and appeared healthy, which is why
Speaker 1: no one questioned whether she was serious in killing herself, which.
Speaker 2: That's not fairver.
Speaker 1: A psychiatrist for the prosecution concluded that Anew was of
Speaker 1: sound mind when she killed Joe. Her problem was a
Speaker 1: lack of maturity, which impaired her from being able to
Speaker 1: control her moods or temper. She had actually called a
Speaker 1: friend to ask for help, which showed that she was
Speaker 1: trying to remove any guilt away from her and worried
Speaker 1: about the consequences. Justice Crispin acknowledged the profound challenges of
Speaker 1: the case. He was satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that she
Speaker 1: intended to murder Joe, but he also accepted that she
Speaker 1: was suffering from an abnormality of mind. It was impossible
Speaker 1: to determine what she was thinking at the time or
Speaker 1: what led her to take such actions. The case was
Speaker 1: absolutely massive camera crews and journalists were everywhere ready for
Speaker 1: the verdicts. The Chinque sat at the front of the
Speaker 1: courtroom awaiting the verdict. They did not miss a day
Speaker 1: of court. Maria was sobbing into a handkerchief. The family
Speaker 1: could not accept that so many people knew of a
Speaker 1: news claims and that no one, particularly at both dinner parties,
Speaker 1: did anything about it. Just as Crispin addressed anew directly,
Speaker 1: in the next few years, you will have to come
Speaker 1: to terms with the fact that you killed the man
Speaker 1: you love. You have caused immense pain. If you find
Speaker 1: the moral courage, you may be able to rebuild from
Speaker 1: this wreckage, to repay the trust people have put in you.
Speaker 1: He then declared her not guilty of Joe's murder, but
Speaker 1: guilty of manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility. Wow Aneur
Speaker 1: was sentenced to only ten years in prison, with a
Speaker 1: non parole period of four years backdated to the time
Speaker 1: of Joe's death. She would be eligible in two years.
Speaker 1: When Justice Crispin left the courtroom, Maria turned to Anneu
Speaker 1: and said, this is where you belong. You stay forever.
Speaker 1: Rod In how you bitch devil. She's a demon? My
Speaker 1: son that's all four years? How can you sleep at night?
Speaker 1: Four years? Is that all my son is worth? So sad,
Speaker 1: so sad. Maria told the journalists outside that Aneu should
Speaker 1: have been sentenced to death. It was widely believed that
Speaker 1: Anu had fooled the court into believing that she wasn't
Speaker 1: of sound mind. Joe Chinque was twenty six years old.
Speaker 1: He was looking forward to sharing his life with his girlfriend,
Speaker 1: a new singer. He had supported her and he stayed
Speaker 1: with her with all her ailments, real or not real.
Speaker 1: She herself called him the most wonderful man in the world.
Speaker 1: She was premeditated, she planned to kill him, and she
Speaker 1: was acquitted of murder for diminished responsibility. Six months later,
Speaker 1: Martivi Rau pled not guilty for Fuck's sake. The prosecution
Speaker 1: stated that she was criminally responsible for aiding Anew. She
Speaker 1: was fully aware of the plot to kill Joe and
Speaker 1: failed her duty of care. The prosecution believed that she
Speaker 1: was present when Anu put the sedatives in Joe's coffee
Speaker 1: or a hypnoal that morning at six am, but it
Speaker 1: could not be proven what time this all happened and
Speaker 1: when Joe was injected. When she saw Joe ill in
Speaker 1: his bedroom. She did not have a duty of care
Speaker 1: and she was a friend, what not a spouse?
Speaker 2: No no, no, no, no, no, no no no.
Speaker 1: The defense maintained that she had no more legal responsibility
Speaker 1: than a complete stranger.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sorry, surely there's still a duty of care for
Speaker 2: a stranger. If you see someone with blue lips past out,
Speaker 2: do something about it.
Speaker 1: She was alarmingly passive in her friendship with Anew and
Speaker 1: went to unhealthy lengths to put her friend's needs ahead
Speaker 1: of her own. She had difficulty standing up for herself.
Speaker 1: She taught a classmate, I've got a friend who's suicidal.
Speaker 1: She smothers me. A prison welfare officer overheard Anew putting
Speaker 1: the pressure on Martivi about getting their stories straight. Martive
Speaker 1: was declared not guilty, fuck off of all charges.
Speaker 2: Fuck off.
Speaker 1: Although her story was suspicious, they could not prove that
Speaker 1: she shared a news criminal intent. Maria and Nino had
Speaker 1: to be escorted out of the court for their protesting
Speaker 1: about what had happened. Nino collapsed and was rushed to
Speaker 1: hospital with heart problems. Martivi was let off. She was
Speaker 1: now for just.
Speaker 2: Not guilty, completely just acquitted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was allowed to leave for sake. A new
Speaker 1: later said, it's my fault entirely. I was hysterical and
Speaker 1: she just loved me and wanted to help me. What
Speaker 1: would sending her to jail have really done? Would it
Speaker 1: have eased Maria and Nino's pain anymore?
Speaker 2: That's not the only point of a guilty verdict, That's
Speaker 2: not the only point of punishment and rehabilitation, of retribution.
Speaker 1: Having some sort of justice. It seemed this perpetuating sorrow
Speaker 1: on so many people. Her family would have suffered as
Speaker 1: my family suffered. I don't put any blame on martyv
Speaker 1: I Knew served her sentence in a maximum security prison,
Speaker 1: where she worked in a prison library and shoot at
Speaker 1: other inmates. She underwent psychotherapy and was prescribed for medication
Speaker 1: to treat depression, anxiety, and obsessed with combalsive disorder. She
Speaker 1: was later transferred and granted day release to the University
Speaker 1: of Sydney. In October two thousand and one, she was
Speaker 1: released on parole at the age of just twenty nine,
Speaker 1: two years old. Two years yeah, only a few years
Speaker 1: older than Joe was when his life was taken away
Speaker 1: from him. In two thousand and four, she breached her
Speaker 1: parole conditions for smoking cannabis and went back to prison
Speaker 1: for three months. In two thousand and nine, she was
Speaker 1: awarded a doctorate from the University of Sydney for a
Speaker 1: thesis offending Women toward a greater understanding of women's pathways
Speaker 1: into and out of crime in Australia. She has since
Speaker 1: admitted that she lied in nineteen ninety seven when she
Speaker 1: told a counselor that Joe had been abusive to her.
Speaker 1: Joe had expressed frustration with her, but he never indicated
Speaker 1: that he wanted to leave her. She had told him
Speaker 1: various times of her intention to take her own life,
Speaker 1: but he encouraged her to keep living. Then asked why
Speaker 1: she did it, she said, there's absolutely no legitimate or
Speaker 1: rational motivation at all. Martyve changed her name and moved
Speaker 1: to the United States with her husband and kids. She
Speaker 1: got to have a life.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: A lot of the people who went to the party
Speaker 1: on those nights went on to finish their law degrees.
Speaker 1: The townhouse has since been demolished to make way for
Speaker 1: a new government housing project. Joe's childhood room remains untouched.
Speaker 1: The Chinquays are, of course still The Chinquas are of course,
Speaker 1: still perplexed as to why no one came to Joe's aid.
Speaker 1: If you see a dog on the street from a
Speaker 1: car accident, you call somebody to help the bloody dog.
Speaker 1: Her father, Nino said so his father, Nino said. Joe
Speaker 1: Chinkway's death has often been cited as a tragic example
Speaker 1: of the bystander effect, a social psychological claim where people
Speaker 1: are less likely to help someone if others are present,
Speaker 1: believing someone else will act. A new made a public
Speaker 1: apology to the Chinquei family on television a Current Affair
Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven scene, saying, there are many
Speaker 1: things people don't understand. There's a lot of things that
Speaker 1: have been overlooked. I was suffering from a very very
Speaker 1: severe mental illness of the time. If I could have
Speaker 1: listened to people and sought the right sort of mental help,
Speaker 1: this wouldn't have happened. I would like to say to
Speaker 1: Maria and Nino that I'm deeply, deeply sorry for what happened,
Speaker 1: and to that if I could, if there was any
Speaker 1: way I could turn back the clock, I would do
Speaker 1: so in a heartbeat. In the same episode, Maria rejected
Speaker 1: the apology, calling anew the devil and responding, don't tell
Speaker 1: me this bullshit. You have killed the most precious thing
Speaker 1: I had in my life. My first son, my firstborn,
Speaker 1: the one who was going to carry his grandfather's name,
Speaker 1: is not here anymore. Maria Chinque believes that Joe wasn't
Speaker 1: just betrayed by anew but also the entire justice system.
Speaker 1: In the book Joe's Hinque's Consolation, Helen Ghana goes to
Speaker 1: visit Justice Crispin, who presided over the case. Maria had
Speaker 1: called him all kinds of names and said that she
Speaker 1: hoped a child of his was murdered so he would understand.
Speaker 1: Justice Crispin understood her hurt and frustration. In fact, he
Speaker 1: had lost a child too, Oh God. Helen asked him
Speaker 1: about his lenient ruling in the case of Sing. He
Speaker 1: said both her parents were doctors. They were terrified about
Speaker 1: the way she was behaving. They lugged her to doctors
Speaker 1: and psychiatrists, and then twice tried to have her locked
Speaker 1: up as an involuntary patient. Imagine how frightened you'd have
Speaker 1: to be about your own child to want to do that.
Speaker 1: Justice Crispin also goes on to say about Martavi, I
Speaker 1: think Rau was very coerced as to what to do.
Speaker 1: She was paralyzed with indecision. I think Rau was very
Speaker 1: concerned as to what to do. I think it means
Speaker 1: she was paralyzed with indecision. Her friend was saying these
Speaker 1: things that were off the planet. Nobody else was taking
Speaker 1: it seriously. Should she take it seriously? What if she
Speaker 1: blew the whistle and rang the police and then it
Speaker 1: all turned out to be a hoax.
Speaker 2: That that doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: By the time of her release, Arne already had a
Speaker 1: boyfriend who she met during her trial. Back in nine
Speaker 1: ninety nine. She spent eighteen months at the remand Center,
Speaker 1: where male and female inmates were able to make contact.
Speaker 1: She had three romantic attachments in that time, but only
Speaker 1: one serious, who later went on to become her partner.
Speaker 1: After being released, they moved to Sydney together. I Knew
Speaker 1: managed to finish her PhD in prison and actually wanted
Speaker 1: to become a criminologist. I Knew attempted to make a
Speaker 1: documentary about prison and approach the founder of a victim
Speaker 1: support group called Enough Is Enough. The founder's response was
Speaker 1: that if she wanted to genuinely help people, yes, but
Speaker 1: if she wanted to make a film, then forget about it.
Speaker 1: If she just wanted to make a film and just
Speaker 1: forget about it, they never heard back from a new
Speaker 1: A few months later, a new spoker out about how
Speaker 1: annoyed she had been about the public mistreatment and how
Speaker 1: difficult she felt it was to get a job in
Speaker 1: a chosen field. Her boyfriend was quoted as saying she
Speaker 1: wasn't an angel, but has served her two years. In
Speaker 1: the book Joe Chinquay's Consolation by Helen Ghana, she starts
Speaker 1: out wanting to talk to to Martvi to get their
Speaker 1: sides of the story, but what she realizes is that
Speaker 1: she needed to get to dojo. She visited with his
Speaker 1: family so many times and learned not to sit in
Speaker 1: Joe's chair every time she visited that was his as
Speaker 1: if they were waiting for him to return home. They
Speaker 1: also had a photo of him in the kitchen, and
Speaker 1: when Halen would bring something along like a bottle of wine,
Speaker 1: it was placed next to Joe as if he was
Speaker 1: waiting for his house guest. I'd like to end today
Speaker 1: with Helen talking about sitting with Marie Chinkuey on the
Speaker 1: couch of their family home they're watching Joe at a
Speaker 1: wedding that he was seeing. He looks somehow different from
Speaker 1: his companions at the wedding, with his rather harsh haircut
Speaker 1: that swept any kind of mullet, bared his long, slender neck,
Speaker 1: and stripped his cheeks of side burns. How much of
Speaker 1: this was projecting with the knowledge I had of horrible fate.
Speaker 1: It was magic, thinking, sentimental. I tried to pull myself
Speaker 1: into line, but I wasn't the only person to be
Speaker 1: struck by Joe An a casual moment of proceedings with
Speaker 1: the guests were attacking the dessert and nothing for more
Speaker 1: was in progress, where children were tearing about the dance
Speaker 1: floor among the drifting balloons, and Joe was just standing
Speaker 1: there alone behind the long bridle table, smiling benignly and
Speaker 1: looking around him with a calm, bright curiosity. The camera
Speaker 1: zoomed in discreetly and framed him front m head and
Speaker 1: shoulders against the dark curtain. It had no reason to
Speaker 1: single him out in that moment, let alone focus on
Speaker 1: his agreeable face, but it found it, and it dwelt
Speaker 1: on him. It lingered intimately and without He's ever realizing
Speaker 1: for a good seven or eight seconds. His face was
Speaker 1: fine and sensitive, still faintly blurred look, with youth not
Speaker 1: yet said in the hard lines of manhood. He looked
Speaker 1: like a man who was lightly poised on the very
Speaker 1: rim of the world he came from. I sat on
Speaker 1: his parents couch and watched him with my heart in
Speaker 1: my mouth. Maria too, ceased her murmured commentary. We gazed
Speaker 1: in silence on our undefended son. That g is a
Speaker 1: devastating case of jo chinqua.
Speaker 2: Thanks, I hate it. Oh my god, We've never cried
Speaker 2: this much. Do you think we should take a break
Speaker 2: and come back and Sammy, thank you so much for
Speaker 2: telling that story. Jesus Christ, what a roller coaster the motion.
Speaker 1: We just take kind of a big break just then.
Speaker 2: Yea, we just sat and cried a lot and hugged
Speaker 2: and then discussed it a bit.
Speaker 1: And you sent me a photo that you took of
Speaker 1: digs during during that which actually bright my day. It is.
Speaker 1: It is such a I highly recommend the book.
Speaker 2: I just asked you literally as you were pressing record,
Speaker 2: did you cry while you were reading that or was
Speaker 2: it just because you were kind of like saying it
Speaker 2: all together as one story? And please repeat your I did.
Speaker 1: I absolutely cried during it.
Speaker 2: It is the words were I cried a lot, cried
Speaker 2: a lot.
Speaker 1: It's also I was crying on the train when they read,
Speaker 1: which isn't a good look. But it is so beautiful.
Speaker 1: I think my connection to it, other than it is
Speaker 1: just a it is just a horrible story. Is my brother.
Speaker 1: So he had drug psychosis from a young young age
Speaker 1: and he would do things like he became a very
Speaker 1: violent person. We had all the restrained orders on him.
Speaker 1: He became someone that I didn't know any more, didn't recognize,
Speaker 1: and I grew up with that from the age of
Speaker 1: about fifteen. That was my life, and I had all
Speaker 1: these reading orders with my brother. I kind of understood
Speaker 1: how someone can fall through the cracks quite easily. And
Speaker 1: I don't think there's a lot of support for mental
Speaker 1: health in Australia. I also find it so disappointing that
Speaker 1: you cannot get someone there are so many you have
Speaker 1: to be assessed by a cat team, and my brother
Speaker 1: was quite charming when it came to it, And I
Speaker 1: think there are just there's so much wrong with the
Speaker 1: legal system, There is so much wrong with the mental
Speaker 1: health system, and you know, throughout this book, the line
Speaker 1: is repeated over and over again, no matter what, Joe
Speaker 1: Chinkway is dead. And that line is repeated fifty times
Speaker 1: throughout the book, and she talks to every single person.
Speaker 1: Then she goes, Joe Chinkway is dead, and that is
Speaker 1: what the book should be called, because it is just yeah,
Speaker 1: but a young man who everyone loved, who.
Speaker 2: Didn't do anything, to do.
Speaker 1: Anything, and his mum was you know, called him JOSEPPI
Speaker 1: to follow on you know, his grandfather's footsteps. It is.
Speaker 1: It's so heartbreaking a case and our tickes come on.
Speaker 2: Dis just come to.
Speaker 1: Kisses. But dear, well, yeah, but it is so yeah,
Speaker 1: he's very shy, digs never that in his love. But
Speaker 1: it is it is so sad because you you look
Speaker 1: at these people and you go even the people that
Speaker 1: went to the dinners even like I just don't understand.
Speaker 1: I can't understand, like you said during it, like if
Speaker 1: you were invited to a dinner like that, you would
Speaker 1: if you don't know someone, of course you would say
Speaker 1: what is going on and understand what's happening.
Speaker 2: I'd tell people I wouldn't go to the dinner, but
Speaker 2: I would also then tell people what was said and
Speaker 2: report that, like, I'm quite common, quite confident. It's very
Speaker 2: easy to say I would have should have cut her.
Speaker 2: I really feel quite confident I would yeah, no, I'm
Speaker 2: not coming to that dinner, and I would call authorities
Speaker 2: like I would feel quite confident. Yeah, yeah, like I'm
Speaker 2: a big dipper dubba though parently from way back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you ever hear that what you used to say?
Speaker 1: Dip dubbers with chocolate nappies.
Speaker 2: That's disgusting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, chocolate chocolate nappy What.
Speaker 2: Does that mean?
Speaker 1: I think they put themselves and then everyone else will go,
Speaker 1: oh what, I don't want to be one of them.
Speaker 1: Then I'll keep this secret with myself.
Speaker 2: No no secret secrets. And if one secret secrets hurt.
Speaker 1: Someone, that's actually true. And also dubbers chocolate no no, no,
Speaker 1: take that, but it is. I don't know. I found
Speaker 1: the whole book so interesting. So Helen Ghana wrote a
Speaker 1: Monkey Grip and this it was her first as I know,
Speaker 1: her first true crime, and it really made her a
Speaker 1: national bestseller because it was like, how do you write
Speaker 1: about this in a way? You know, she talks about
Speaker 1: her own divorce during this she wow, you know, having
Speaker 1: an abortion. She talks there is so much in here
Speaker 1: that you go, oh wow, So she can at the time,
Speaker 1: you know, when if that story about And I kind
Speaker 1: of canvas this by saying, if all of this is true,
Speaker 1: when when a new terminated her pregnancy, then Helen talks
Speaker 1: about that, and she has a way of connecting with people.
Speaker 1: Then obviously she wrote this House of Grief, which catapulted her,
Speaker 1: catapulted her into the worldwide stage like as a as
Speaker 1: this this incredible, incredible writer. But I went in to
Speaker 1: get the Mushroom cook Book and I came out with this,
Speaker 1: and I mean I bought both, but it was just
Speaker 1: like so interested in going and yeah, and I just
Speaker 1: looked at it and when you know, it's got a
Speaker 1: green apple on the front cover like you said at
Speaker 1: the start, and I just went, what is this and
Speaker 1: what is this story? And it wasn't you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not a big I mean I really I am a
Speaker 1: big true crime fanatic, but I don't source it out
Speaker 1: and sit and devoured and this was just fascinating and
Speaker 1: like people looking at this book, we'll just go what
Speaker 1: is that? Oh? Do you ever hear about the story.
Speaker 1: Some people had heard of the story, but a lot
Speaker 1: of people didn't know that Martave left and.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I've got so many things on the.
Speaker 1: Country, and also that a new only got you know,
Speaker 1: in the end two years.
Speaker 2: Okay, I want to get to that. First of all,
Speaker 2: I want to talk about the book. Why do you
Speaker 2: think it's titled Joe Chinkwa's Consolation? And why has got
Speaker 2: the green apple on the front?
Speaker 1: I kind of feel that that was the poison apple, aha,
Speaker 1: that was given to him a consolation. I don't really know.
Speaker 1: Why do you think it's called I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't like the title. No, I don't like it.
Speaker 1: What does the world? What's the definition of consolation?
Speaker 2: Look it up?
Speaker 1: It up right, because, yeah, I find the title. I
Speaker 1: think it should have been called in Sorry, Helen's is
Speaker 1: just one note, Hell's health belt. I think Joe Joe
Speaker 1: Chinkway's Dead would have been. It would have been a
Speaker 1: great title. But I wonder why she chose.
Speaker 2: I don't don't I'll look up the actual definition.
Speaker 1: I don't like.
Speaker 2: Great chick, good right, good right, great chick? Okay, So
Speaker 2: the comfort received by a person after a loss or disappointment.
Speaker 2: The example sentence is there was a consolation in knowing
Speaker 2: that others were worse off. Wow. Yeah, yeah, I just
Speaker 2: it's like, you know, a consolation prize where you go, oh, sorry,
Speaker 2: you didn't get this, but here's a consolation prize. To me,
Speaker 2: That's why I don't like that title. It makes it
Speaker 2: feel like there's something that's okay about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, maybe in a way that would sounds bizarre.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 2: I think maybe the consolation is that she received the help.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Well, the tag is a true story of death, grief,
Speaker 1: and the law.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really fascinated about that title. I'm a real nerd.
Speaker 2: I think I've said this on him before. Whenever I
Speaker 2: read or watch something that I really like or really hate,
Speaker 2: I go into a deep dive of reviews and interviews
Speaker 2: with the authors or the writers. And I know that
Speaker 2: I'm going to do that as soon as I leave here.
Speaker 1: What I love the most about this is that it
Speaker 1: ends with a photo of Joe, which is lovely, so
Speaker 1: you can kind of see the person that he was,
Speaker 1: and I, you know, I just go oh wow, Like
Speaker 1: he was so young, he was such a beautiful looking person.
Speaker 1: He had just a face that you can imagine Maria like,
Speaker 1: you know, like just loving and being obsessed with and
Speaker 1: grabbing his face. That's what I felt. And you can
Speaker 1: kind of understand how, you know, a family that came
Speaker 1: to us Aralia for a better life would look at
Speaker 1: this and go this is criminal and they and also
Speaker 1: I think the big thing that really struck me was
Speaker 1: in grief. These this family are going through this unspeakable grief.
Speaker 1: They ran out of money because because they were going
Speaker 1: to Canberra, and they went to every single day of
Speaker 1: the trial and would take their own lunch and they
Speaker 1: would sit in the park and Alen Ghan would walk
Speaker 1: by and sit with him in the park. And there
Speaker 1: was a police officer that was lovely to them that
Speaker 1: would just chat with them every day and would drive
Speaker 1: up to Newcastle to talk to them and they would
Speaker 1: I don't know that. I think a lot of the time,
Speaker 1: when people get really sick or people you know, go
Speaker 1: through something like this, you don't think about that. They
Speaker 1: can't work, they can't do anything there. They just got
Speaker 1: this huge cost of living and they're having to do
Speaker 1: all this stuff. I don't know, it just it just
Speaker 1: seems wild to me that this you don't think about
Speaker 1: these poor people went along to everything, and then they.
Speaker 2: Didn't do anything. Joe didn't do anything to deserve it.
Speaker 2: They didn't do anything to deserve it either, and they've
Speaker 2: got this life sentence that she doesn't have and who
Speaker 2: doesn't have, Okay, which brings me to talk about that.
Speaker 2: What do you think about first of all, put aside
Speaker 2: the sentence, what do you think about the guilty of
Speaker 2: manslaughter but not of murder verdict? I don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like there was a lot of intent. I
Speaker 1: feel like it was premeditated. I feel like it because
Speaker 1: of the first party Monday. You have a week to
Speaker 1: think about it. Like, I feel like it was murder
Speaker 1: and I but I also know that she didn't have
Speaker 1: I know, the mental stability.
Speaker 2: And that's something that yeah, I you know, I'm touching
Speaker 2: what as I say this, don't have lived experience with
Speaker 2: someone with reduced mental capacity like that, or you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know that. I don't know what that's like
Speaker 2: to be in or to be around, which I'm very
Speaker 2: grateful for. But it's very hard from my privileged perspective
Speaker 2: to understand or to agree that there's no criminal capacity.
Speaker 2: Well sorry, not no criminal capacity. She was still found
Speaker 2: guilty of manslaughter, But the criminal diminishment of that I
Speaker 2: find really hard to understand.
Speaker 1: Isn't there is there a minimum term for manslaughter.
Speaker 2: There's no minimum term for anything. There's only maximum terms
Speaker 2: for things. But yeah, then that follows on to the
Speaker 2: next question, is the four years with two years, four years,
Speaker 2: four years minimum sentence, that's fucking nothing.
Speaker 1: At the time of Joe's death. I don't really understand
Speaker 1: that because she's a man center for that.
Speaker 2: Time, but because she was incarcerated for the whole time.
Speaker 2: It's always with time served. A sentence is never from
Speaker 2: the day you are sentenced if you've been incarcerated for
Speaker 2: that whole time. So she did spend four years in
Speaker 2: jail essentially.
Speaker 1: But so too there a man center and then romance.
Speaker 2: Center is jail, and that is arguably worse. A lot
Speaker 2: of people say that's worse than the prison and everything,
Speaker 2: But then you know you've also gone on to say
Speaker 2: she found a lovely boyfriend there too.
Speaker 1: People, I think a couple of relationships. What do you
Speaker 1: think you think? Yeah, obviously that she should be that
Speaker 1: she should have been tried for murder.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I don't know if I disagree, even on
Speaker 2: the on the finding of it being man's sort rather
Speaker 2: than murder. But I think she should have got whatever
Speaker 2: the maximum penalty is for maximum sentences for manswater. I
Speaker 2: cannot and do not agree with the four years.
Speaker 1: Minimum, and I don't agree with might have be just
Speaker 1: getting off.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Okay, then that brings me to my
Speaker 2: last part, and the reason I left that to last
Speaker 2: is because I'm sorry. In my humble opinion, that is
Speaker 2: fucked to me. She is potentially the guiltiest or as guilty. No,
Speaker 2: I think, I mean my opinion, she's the most guilty.
Speaker 2: She wasn't mentally incapacitated. She wasn't she didn't have psychosis,
Speaker 2: borderline personality disorder anything she says she was.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: I think he used the word coorse but then actually
Speaker 2: corrected that she wasn't like under course of control by it.
Speaker 2: She just didn't know what to do. Like sorry, that's
Speaker 2: not a defense in my mind, that's I think that's fucked.
Speaker 2: That person is guilty of murder at the very least
Speaker 2: man's order. We didn't have murder in the first to
Speaker 2: murder in the second degree like America does. This is
Speaker 2: probably the only case I've ever thought and maybe we
Speaker 2: need that. So I think that's murder in the second degree.
Speaker 2: I cannot believe she was entirely acquitted. She's married and
Speaker 2: has a fan. I mean, that's not to say anyone
Speaker 2: after doing their time can go on and have a
Speaker 2: wonderful life and marry and have a family. That's not
Speaker 2: to take that away from her, but that she's been
Speaker 2: acquitted and she's never she's never had.
Speaker 1: I know, justice, I know, And what I kind of
Speaker 1: in the in the book, what I what I found
Speaker 1: really difficult was Helen Ganna goes to talk to and
Speaker 1: who his dad And it is really heartbreaking, it is,
Speaker 1: you know, and he's turning up going oh, Marie Chino
Speaker 1: won't look at me and everything, and going yeah, of course,
Speaker 1: but these people are human.
Speaker 2: You know, yes, And that is really sad too. It's
Speaker 2: not the parents fault. I understand being mad a new
Speaker 2: and mar Devi, but obviously not the parents. But then
Speaker 2: of course I can understand, well I can't understand, but
Speaker 2: I can imagine you wouldn't want to look at anyone
Speaker 2: from their camp at all. And oh god, the whole
Speaker 2: thing is just heartbreaking. What a terrible waste of.
Speaker 1: Life, lives yeah. Yeah, well, well I think I think,
Speaker 1: you know, there are a lot of people who have
Speaker 1: been hurt by.
Speaker 2: This, but there has been lost.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and I found I found the letter that
Speaker 1: a new wrote to her mum really interesting. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: it says I'm completely guilty of what I did. I
Speaker 1: don't know why I did it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Devil's advocate. That can be a bit of
Speaker 2: woe is me? Feel sorry for me because a year
Speaker 2: later and I want to have a diminished responsibility?
Speaker 1: I do, I do wonder you know how much of
Speaker 1: it was her going I'm going to act like I'm
Speaker 1: mad too, Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2: You just don't know diminished responsibility for a number of reasons.
Speaker 2: I'm going to act like this, or I'm going to go,
Speaker 2: oh I'm sad, I might be found guilty. I'll say, oh,
Speaker 2: he didn't deserve this, he was wonderful. I'm the one
Speaker 2: that should have gone.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I feel a little bit like getting out my mini violin?
Speaker 1: Is it only dimished and you don't have one? Is
Speaker 1: the only diminished responsibility in Australia? Is that what it's called? Everywhere?
Speaker 3: Is it?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Because there's another term for it where I'm digs
Speaker 1: just fun. Didn't he said?
Speaker 2: He didn't say he didn't because he's sleeping and I'm
Speaker 2: upset enough now I'm also choking.
Speaker 1: She's yelling at you.
Speaker 2: He smells like he's wearing a chocolates.
Speaker 1: You're a dipper.
Speaker 2: Because he's a Hey, can we go?
Speaker 1: Before we end today's can we go? Can we go?
Speaker 1: We've had so many, so many messages about the Fred
Speaker 1: and Rose West episode. People have absolutely devoured that. I
Speaker 1: know a lot of people listen to it in one city.
Speaker 2: I know, and God love you all. But also I'm
Speaker 2: really mad at you all for all going yay two
Speaker 2: and a half of our episode.
Speaker 1: It was so much work.
Speaker 2: I love you all so much.
Speaker 1: But let us rest. Look, we're going to go to
Speaker 1: some letters. So this one comes from Shanna, our mail bag.
Speaker 1: If you want to leave us and internet letter, you
Speaker 1: can Sammy at justinother company, dot com dot au.
Speaker 2: We'll follow us on Instagram. You can send us message
Speaker 2: there at just another podcast.
Speaker 1: Come on, you can do it. You can do it.
Speaker 1: You can do it.
Speaker 2: Not another crime focus.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Also you can leave as a voicemail. All the
Speaker 1: links are below. We call the website to speak pipe,
Speaker 1: but we're going to be here through the Christmas and
Speaker 1: holiday periods and we would absolutely love to hear from
Speaker 1: you during that time. We're going to keep you company,
Speaker 1: so why don't you keep us company as well. This
Speaker 1: is from Shanna. Hey guys, I just finished the Fred
Speaker 1: and Rose West episode. Oh wow. I had to stop
Speaker 1: a few times to get through it, but I made
Speaker 1: it to the end. I'm from England and neew of them,
Speaker 1: but I was like five when all of this happened,
Speaker 1: so didn't really know any of the details. On a
Speaker 1: different note and not true crime related, Georgia, I need
Speaker 1: recommendations for shows to see in London please. I am
Speaker 1: heading back home to England for the first time in
Speaker 1: nine years on Saturday and staying in London for a
Speaker 1: few days. I need to know what is good, so
Speaker 1: please let me know. As always love the podcast Heaps.
Speaker 1: You guys are awesome. Have a beautiful afternoon.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Thanks Shanna. Sammy please send me email
Speaker 2: address so I can email her before because if she's
Speaker 2: going on Saturday, this episode doesn't come out to Monday,
Speaker 2: so I'll email you before anyone else who's interested. Lamey's
Speaker 2: on the West End always it's like one of the
Speaker 2: longest running I think maybe the longest running after Fantom
Speaker 2: finished up there. Yeah that always. I think six is
Speaker 2: still playing there. That's great, it's quick and fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, funny.
Speaker 2: Trying to think of what else is playing there at
Speaker 2: the moment. Bless o cal and SEENI but I would
Speaker 2: like to I apologize. I've been to Broadway twice in
Speaker 2: the last year, but not the West End, so I've
Speaker 2: got to know what else. Oh, Operation mince Meat? Great?
Speaker 1: Great, right, Operation mince Meat? Yes, okay, well, yeah, there's
Speaker 1: some great options there and so yeah, so glad that
Speaker 1: you enjoyed the Fred and Rose Rose West episode. Not enjoyed,
Speaker 1: but you know, but I found it really interesting because
Speaker 1: you did it in a really in depth way. A
Speaker 1: lot of people are talking about how how the documentary
Speaker 1: did it in a different way, and this was good
Speaker 1: to hear kind of the full story, even if people
Speaker 1: knew this before. Oh.
Speaker 2: Thanks, that's really nice as well, because I even said
Speaker 2: in the episode like it wasn't really in that in
Speaker 2: depth because I didn't go into any of the heinous
Speaker 2: sexual abuse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it was.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to, but it was in Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's even obviously more to it than that. But you're right,
Speaker 2: the docos just kind of goes into kind of starts
Speaker 2: with an assumption that you.
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, yeah, exactly, which is always hard for a
Speaker 1: documentary like I think the John Benet Ramsey wanted. Netflix
Speaker 1: did that as well, and sometimes you go, Okay, well
Speaker 1: we don't know what if we don't know much about it.
Speaker 2: Sammy, that's why people need to listen to this podcast, right,
Speaker 2: people that they get the background story and that's how
Speaker 2: they fallen love.
Speaker 1: With us, fall in love with us and.
Speaker 2: He perform out of Love with him for the moment.
Speaker 1: Also, there was someone who commented, Joe Turner who's been.
Speaker 2: On the Yes, oh my god, so Joe Turner longtime
Speaker 2: listeners will recognize his name or if you don't, please
Speaker 2: go back and listen. Sammy did a one on one
Speaker 2: Thursday Treat episode with him about the Danie La Plant story.
Speaker 2: He wrote a book about daniela plant, and Joe Turner's
Speaker 2: commented on our Instagram and I'm saying this off the
Speaker 2: top of my goddamn head. I'm not even looking at
Speaker 2: my phone right now. He messaged and said, not only
Speaker 2: did I do an episode with you about Daniel plant.
Speaker 2: My parents lived near the West and I bought furniture
Speaker 2: from Fred West. Is that right?
Speaker 1: Memory installed their fireplace.
Speaker 2: Installed their fire.
Speaker 1: In the house. They had it removed since he did
Speaker 1: say that.
Speaker 2: He said after after finding out what they did, we
Speaker 2: had it removed. But I'm sorry, Joe Turner, but things
Speaker 2: come in threes. So what other true crime story do
Speaker 2: you have a connection with?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Absolutely, what about this one. This is a speak pipe
Speaker 1: aka voice Welcome Cat.
Speaker 4: Hi, Georgie, and Sammy.
Speaker 1: This is Cat.
Speaker 4: I've been listening from the start of your podcast. Still
Speaker 4: loving it. This is my second speak pipe. I'm sitting
Speaker 4: here with my dog Clancy.
Speaker 2: Oh, I remember Cat mug.
Speaker 4: And I've just finished the Friend and Rose Good Story,
Speaker 4: which was Yeah, I mean we all know what that is. Now.
Speaker 4: I love this podcast. I've been recommending it to people.
Speaker 4: I've been getting them.
Speaker 2: To listen to it.
Speaker 4: I've got other people hooked and I'm trying to let
Speaker 4: go of something because this is from quite a few
Speaker 4: episodes ago now, but it keeps popping into my head
Speaker 4: and I just need to get it out. When Sammy
Speaker 4: did an episode on the Mona Lisa being stolen, he
Speaker 4: was not saying Mona as I believe it's pronounced. He
Speaker 4: was saying Mona, Lisa. The thing is, Georgia, you didn't
Speaker 4: correct her, which makes me feel like maybe Mona is correct.
Speaker 2: But oh my god, I really thought it was Mona.
Speaker 4: So I'm just questioning myself now because I feel like Georgia,
Speaker 4: you would have corrected him if he was wrong. You didn't,
Speaker 4: But I feel like I'm right. It just needs to
Speaker 4: get that off my chest. Okay, love you guys, eve
Speaker 4: to what you're doing.
Speaker 1: Fuck.
Speaker 2: I love our listeners. Fuck I love our listeners. Okay,
Speaker 2: can you be really honest. I didn't correct you because
Speaker 2: I was hearing myself and going, you stupid bitch, are
Speaker 2: so annoying, and you just stop correcting your best friend.
Speaker 2: I'm just being like an annoying I'm being Have you
Speaker 2: ever watched How I Met Your Mother?
Speaker 1: No? Really? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Okay, you know my best friend anyone? Anyway. I like
Speaker 2: that show. But Ted Moseby is the main character who
Speaker 2: I love but like really famously people hate him, and
Speaker 2: one of the things he does is correct people's English
Speaker 2: and brother, so I know that I do it a lot. Also,
Speaker 2: it's funny that I said correct English because obviously, Mona
Speaker 2: Lisa is not English English, Yeah, Inglish, se yes. I
Speaker 2: correct people. Often sometimes I stop myself because I'm going
Speaker 2: you're being a bitch. Just let it go now, Mona Lisa.
Speaker 2: Mona Lisa is Italian. I believe in Italian it's Mona Lisa,
Speaker 2: which could be heard Mona Lisa or Monalesea. It's kind
Speaker 2: of in between. I let it go because I don't know.
Speaker 2: I believe that English speaking people usually pronounce it Mona Lisa,
Speaker 2: but I'm not certain that that is correct. So I
Speaker 2: didn't say I let it go, but Cat did not. Cat,
Speaker 2: you are one of mine.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Cat for getting me in trouble after the fact,
Speaker 1: we've also got let's do.
Speaker 2: Why is this why I am in the position of
Speaker 2: life that I am.
Speaker 1: No, you're a wonderful person.
Speaker 2: Why wou't you look me in the eye. I can't.
Speaker 1: Love the show.
Speaker 3: Since you got Mister Sunday Movies was my first introduction.
Speaker 3: Then you know, every time I'm going to drive through
Speaker 3: you know, Hoddle street work and stuff, I've been yeah,
Speaker 3: pumping it so good ship. I have a suggestion for
Speaker 3: I'm living in Melbourne, but I'm from the Blue mountains
Speaker 3: outside of Sydney, and there's this case of a missing
Speaker 3: woman called Blinda Peasley and basically you can find a
Speaker 3: doco on iView.
Speaker 1: I think that's where I got right.
Speaker 3: Okay, it's this woman who or young lady who got
Speaker 3: a house from like a dead relative I think it was,
Speaker 3: and it basically turned into a trap house. Katoomba at
Speaker 3: the time was like big Heroin capital.
Speaker 1: So I turned into a trap house.
Speaker 3: And she went missing and no one really looked into
Speaker 3: it for like thirteen years in open up a thing
Speaker 3: until thirteen years later. So they're asking a bunch of
Speaker 3: like you know, Heroin addicts, what happened on.
Speaker 2: The specific nor years ago.
Speaker 1: I just think that's crazy.
Speaker 3: But I bring it up because I actually lived in
Speaker 3: that house after she'd gone missing a rent, so that
Speaker 3: would just be an interesting listening.
Speaker 1: All right, thanks go.
Speaker 2: Bye bye bye bye bye. Wow, that's fascinating many thank
Speaker 2: you for.
Speaker 1: Listening down Hoddle Street.
Speaker 2: When he said I drive down Hoddle Street to work,
Speaker 2: first of all, you'll drive past my work. Secondly, I
Speaker 2: thought you were going to suggest Julian Knight And if
Speaker 2: if any listeners don't know what I'm talking about. Don't
Speaker 2: look it up. I'll do it another time. Yeah, yeah, Benny,
Speaker 2: that's fascinating.
Speaker 1: Wow, we'll definitely have to do that. Thank you to
Speaker 1: everyone that always writes in. You can write in, send
Speaker 1: me an email to send me at just another company
Speaker 1: dot com dot au. You can send a voicemail. All
Speaker 1: the links are below.
Speaker 2: You can follow us at not Another Crime Podcast on TikTok.
Speaker 1: Also, you can leave well, no, leave us.
Speaker 2: Five us, leave us a five star, Tell at least
Speaker 2: three friends.
Speaker 1: Still on social media.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, tag us on such media. Sammy, I
Speaker 2: love our listeners so freaking much.
Speaker 1: SAME's Oh good.
Speaker 2: I was actually at a funeral last week and had
Speaker 2: three different people come up to me to say how
Speaker 2: much they.
Speaker 1: Loved this podcast. Oh I love that so much.
Speaker 2: How beautiful is that?
Speaker 1: That is beautiful? Thank you to Oliver Clark doing the
Speaker 1: music and the artwork.
Speaker 2: You sound like you're about to wrap up. Repeave again.
Speaker 2: Now we don't always do it. We forgot it last week.
Speaker 1: But we always do it right at the end. So, Georgia,
Speaker 1: what is your repeat?
Speaker 2: It will start churning, people start turning off when they
Speaker 2: hear us.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: No, I'll do mine first. Okay, looking up. I had
Speaker 1: to call the doctor last week because I need to
Speaker 1: get a repeat prescription for my anxiety medication. I only
Speaker 1: did it as a tallyhealth appointment ninety two dollars, oh.
Speaker 2: My, just to get a new prescription. And then you've
Speaker 2: got to pay for the subscription.
Speaker 1: That is nuts. When when you only we are getting
Speaker 1: a script refilled. It is a two second conversation. My
Speaker 1: pet peeve is that they're charging you through the asshole,
Speaker 1: charging you through the goddamn asshole.
Speaker 2: We're talking about bums today.
Speaker 1: A lot about bums today.
Speaker 2: All right, mind, I've got two things that I'm actually
Speaker 2: gonna say us stories. They're not pet beeves, they're straight
Speaker 2: up hates. But then the third thing on my list.
Speaker 1: A woopy Goldberg once said, they said to you have
Speaker 1: pet peeves, and she says, I have whole kennels of irritation.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's me. I'm woopi Goldberg say that
Speaker 2: because you're thinking of will be a cushion, because you're
Speaker 2: talking about bums a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: Bumps people dressing. Oh my god, my pet Beeves were bumps.
Speaker 1: This is great. I'm a bordal of them.
Speaker 2: People dressing their bums on planes.
Speaker 1: I hate what do you mean?
Speaker 2: People dressing like they are sitting on their couch eating
Speaker 2: their KFC in front of a movie. The freaking airport,
Speaker 2: dirty tracksuit pants and active wear, and just like people
Speaker 2: dressing like they are sitting on their own couch at home.
Speaker 2: On a plane, you don't have to dress up, right,
Speaker 2: You don't have to wear a suit unless you're a
Speaker 2: business class. That is caveat. But if you're going to
Speaker 2: the airport and you're going on a plane, just dress
Speaker 2: like you're leaving the house. Do you not notice that?
Speaker 2: Like these days this scene, babes, I'm such an old,
Speaker 2: grumpy carrying lady. But in my day you would get
Speaker 2: dressed nicely and that could just be jeans and a
Speaker 2: goddamn T shirt. Sure to get on a plane. Everyone
Speaker 2: is walking through the airport in their big oversized tracksuit
Speaker 2: pants and like little crop tops and stupid big huge
Speaker 2: over the top of headphones, like all slouchy walking through
Speaker 2: the airport and getting on the plane. If you're going
Speaker 2: on a long flight that you're gonna sleep, change into
Speaker 2: comfort clothes on the plane. If you're not even it's
Speaker 2: a domestic flight, So you wear them on the plane
Speaker 2: because you are in like society, you are interacting with
Speaker 2: other people, You're sitting in communal chairs, you're in like
Speaker 2: cafes and stuff at the airport terminal. Dress normally, dress nicely. Again,
Speaker 2: I'm not saying like you have to dress up, but
Speaker 2: just where like you and I wearing. Now, I'm wearing
Speaker 2: like a white shirt and denim shorts. You're wearing jeans
Speaker 2: and a T shirt. That's great, that's fine. Don't wear
Speaker 2: over oversized, gross, dirty trackies and a crop top like
Speaker 2: you're going to the gym or lounging on your couch.
Speaker 2: I'm angry. Now, Okay, you meant to agree with me
Speaker 2: with that. You don't agree, but I think right we're
Speaker 2: going angry. You and I are both going to Hoba
Speaker 2: on the weekend. We're not gonna be at the airport
Speaker 2: at same time.
Speaker 1: But I'm gonna wear my tracksuit. No, if I don't
Speaker 1: get dressed on the way.
Speaker 2: When you arrive in Hobert and we reconvene, I'm going
Speaker 2: to say to you, did you look around and notice
Speaker 2: everyone dressed like bums? And did it make you angry?
Speaker 2: And you're going to say no, that's.
Speaker 1: I was wearing my strike eye mask.
Speaker 2: Just you don't have to dress up. Just dress please,
Speaker 2: just like you're going to work in normal off its.
Speaker 2: Dress like you're going to walk down the street and
Speaker 2: see somebody for a coffee. That's fine, that's fine, that's
Speaker 2: I'm fine with that. Okay, you're going to meet somebody
Speaker 2: for a coffee dressed like that. Don't dress like you're
Speaker 2: going to sit on your couch all day or go
Speaker 2: to the before. I love KFC, but that's the thing.
Speaker 2: When you're eating your KFC at home on the couch,
Speaker 2: you want to be comfy. You don't need No, no,
Speaker 2: you don't. Now my poeldry peeve is you do not
Speaker 2: agree with I love you guys. There's another really long episode, Sammy,
Speaker 2: that was really beautiful. Thank you so much. That was devastating.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go on a deep dive as soon as
Speaker 2: I get home and probably cry some more. Please or
Speaker 2: let us know how much you love, hated, hated, loved
Speaker 2: this episode, Sammy. Thank you, goodbye bye,