Speaker 1: My name's Noon. I'm a storyteller on Fine and Tell.
Speaker 1: I'm Australian born Korean and I'm currently living on Gadigle Country.
Speaker 1: I'd like to recognize the traditional custodians of this continent
Speaker 1: whose land was stolen nearly two hundred and fifty years ago,
Speaker 1: in particular the Camaragle and Wornderi people whose land this
Speaker 1: podcast was recorded on, and we extended our respect to
Speaker 1: all Aboriginal and Torres Right Islander peoples. The rich storytelling
Speaker 1: history of the world's oldest living culture is what we
Speaker 1: pay homage to when we tell stories on Fine and Tell.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome back to Find and Tell the search
Speaker 2: for the next generation of Australian storytellers. I'm Jamilla Risby
Speaker 2: and after a nation wide search, we found four budding storytellers.
Speaker 2: We've taught them the ropes of podcasting and set them
Speaker 2: loose to find and.
Speaker 3: Tell some stories.
Speaker 2: Each episode, two of our storytellers go head to head
Speaker 2: and share a story they've created based on a theme,
Speaker 2: and just like you, I'm hearing them for the first
Speaker 2: time before I gather my thoughts and decide the episode's winner.
Speaker 2: No pressure, right, every win puts our storytellers closer to
Speaker 2: being crowned our Find and Tell champion and winning a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of goodies from our friends at Rhode. Last episode,
Speaker 2: it was Ben who took home the points, and now
Speaker 2: we're about to hear from two new storytellers who will
Speaker 2: battle it out over today's theme. Unlikely Allies, All right,
Speaker 2: let's unearth our next storyteller.
Speaker 4: Hi. My name is Mark Mariano. I am a queer
Speaker 4: Filipino writer, model, and comedian from Blacktown in Western Sydney
Speaker 4: on dark Land. I love capop, I love thrifting. I
Speaker 4: love having a good bookie and telling a good story.
Speaker 4: I'm currently a freelance writer. I'm a bit of a
Speaker 4: jack of all trades. I've done stuff in TV, social media,
Speaker 4: spoken word, Melatus gig was a food writing one, but
Speaker 4: there were more stories outside of the food world that
Speaker 4: I wanted to tell. So my friend sent me this
Speaker 4: incredible call out for Find and Tell and it sounded
Speaker 4: like exactly what I wanted to do. I'm so glad
Speaker 4: that I did because the stories that we've put together
Speaker 4: are just so heartwarming, so wholesome, and I can't wait
Speaker 4: for you to hear them.
Speaker 3: Hi, Mark, welcome to find and tell Hi.
Speaker 4: Hello, how are you?
Speaker 2: It is so lovely to see you, and I'm very
Speaker 2: excited to hear all about the story that you've created
Speaker 2: and your very first story of the show.
Speaker 4: Oh my goodness, I'm so excited.
Speaker 2: So this week's theme is unlikely Allies. Tell me when
Speaker 2: you first heard that theme, excited, stressed, tense.
Speaker 4: I was like, am I going to have to fight someone?
Speaker 4: Am I?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Who will my allies be? Who will my unlikely allies be?
Speaker 4: My mind went in so many different directions, and then
Speaker 4: it wasn't until I spoke to one of my producers
Speaker 4: where it was like, why don't we do something a
Speaker 4: little bit more personal? Like why don't we do something
Speaker 4: that's a bit close to home? And so it's a
Speaker 4: little scary. I'm a little scared to have it out
Speaker 4: in but at the same time, I'm I think this
Speaker 4: is a really important story to tell, So I'm excited.
Speaker 3: What kind of stories do you like to hear?
Speaker 2: So put yourself in the shoes of the audience as
Speaker 2: opposed to the podcaster.
Speaker 3: What do you like to listen to?
Speaker 4: Well, I'm a bit trashy. I is good because I
Speaker 4: feel like podcasts are such an intimate form, and so
Speaker 4: when I listen to podcasts, that's where I often go
Speaker 4: when I want to hear about what a celebrity feels
Speaker 4: like or what a celebrity is going through. I feel
Speaker 4: like there's a lot of time and a lot of
Speaker 4: a lot of room on podcasts to really dig deep
Speaker 4: and really sort of be vulnerable. I'm very like person driven,
Speaker 4: and so when I search my podcast I'm like, who
Speaker 4: is who is someone that I want to know more about?
Speaker 4: Who is someone with complex traumas who presents a different
Speaker 4: way but what we want to trauma exactly?
Speaker 5: Mark?
Speaker 2: Without giving too much away, what led you to today's story?
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I have a really complicated relationship with
Speaker 4: spirituality and religion, and you know, as someone who's proudly queer,
Speaker 4: I think this is something that has been on my
Speaker 4: mind on a lot, and I thought I was alone
Speaker 4: in this experience, but you know, after, you know, speaking
Speaker 4: to others who are in a similar space, you know
Speaker 4: I'm not alone, and I wanted to sort of dig
Speaker 4: a little bit deeper. What does it actually mean to
Speaker 4: be a queer person who has ties to a religion
Speaker 4: or who was born and raised in a religion like myself.
Speaker 4: So I'm hoping the episode turned out okay, and then
Speaker 4: I'm not slandering any you know, religious figures. I'm sorry,
Speaker 4: so hopefully no blessed with me today, but we'll tell
Speaker 4: a good story in the meantime.
Speaker 2: Oh, you've definitely piqued my interest, Mark, so let's get started.
Speaker 2: Let's hear you'll find and tell first story, which is
Speaker 2: all about unlikely allies.
Speaker 4: My last day as a member of the Mormon Church
Speaker 4: was just like any other Sunday. I wore a tie
Speaker 4: that strangled my double chin and a hand me down
Speaker 4: button up shirt that desperately needed an iron. I hugged
Speaker 4: my friends goodbye and ignored the weird looks from the
Speaker 4: tough boys in my scripture class that made fun of
Speaker 4: my high pitched voice. My normally heavy red Bible holder
Speaker 4: felt lighter as I swayed out of those holy whole ways.
Speaker 4: I settled in my mom's white Toyota echo Beyonce's halo
Speaker 4: blasting on the radio, and as we drove home, the
Speaker 4: church got smaller and smaller in my mother's rear view.
Speaker 4: But I never looked back once. Mormonism is one of
Speaker 4: the more illusive Christian religions, and not many people know
Speaker 4: about it. The Book of Mormon musical really helped bring
Speaker 4: it into the zeitgeist. But I'm sure I made the
Speaker 4: faith look a little silly and confusing as well. I
Speaker 4: was born into the church, and while I left it
Speaker 4: as a young teenager, I know enough to answer some
Speaker 4: frequently asked question. Gens, Can Mormons drink coffee? So under
Speaker 4: the faith's Word of Wisdom doctrine they actually can't. Something
Speaker 4: about not being able to have hot drinks. Mormons in
Speaker 4: general tend to avoid caffeine, and yes, that also means
Speaker 4: a crisp glass of Coca cola. Can Mormons get divorced? Yes,
Speaker 4: but with a lot of steps and counseling and red tape.
Speaker 4: As my parents found during theirs. What is Mormon soaking?
Speaker 4: It's weirdly not what you think. It's probably worse. So
Speaker 4: it's a bit of a premarital sex loophole, a way
Speaker 4: of getting it on without actually doing the physical act.
Speaker 4: It went viral on TikTok in case you want to
Speaker 4: go down that Internet rabbit hole, but please google at
Speaker 4: your own risk. Can Mormons be queer? Hmm? This question
Speaker 4: has been on my mind, my whole life. Can sexuality
Speaker 4: and spirituality coexist? From an official standpoint? The Human Rights
Speaker 4: Campaign reported from the church website that the experience of
Speaker 4: same sex attraction is a complex reality for many people.
Speaker 4: The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on
Speaker 4: it is. The Church actually considers Mormons who act on
Speaker 4: feelings of same sex attraction to have disobeyed church teachings
Speaker 4: on morality and thus are subject to discipline. Brad Harker
Speaker 4: is the founder of the Peacock Mormons, who are working
Speaker 4: to challenge the current policies and systems in place.
Speaker 5: Peacock Mormons started in twenty eighteen. We were just a
Speaker 5: group of eighty of us. Most of us were Mormons.
Speaker 5: Some of them were friends and were allies that wanted
Speaker 5: to support us in the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras,
Speaker 5: and we marched in the Mormon missionary attire, which you
Speaker 5: know is the white shirt and the badge and the tie.
Speaker 5: The badge said Elder Equality on it. We mass for equality.
Speaker 4: So I actually saw the Peacock Mormons march in the
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three Sydney Gain Lesbian Martigars parade. They were
Speaker 4: dressed in glittery gold in homage to the Golden Angel
Speaker 4: Moroneye statue at the peak of every Mormon church building.
Speaker 4: Moroneye was a warrior and a catalyst for the Mormon Church,
Speaker 4: a shining beacon, guiding people, even the founder, Joseph Smith
Speaker 4: to the faith. If I'm going to be honest, I
Speaker 4: was a little taken aback. First. I was angry that
Speaker 4: the church, in a presumably official capacity, was marching, like
Speaker 4: how dare they? After a few deep breaths, the anger
Speaker 4: subsided and a larger truth came over that other gay
Speaker 4: Mormons existed and that I wasn't alone.
Speaker 5: It was like a statement, a beautiful statement. And every
Speaker 5: time we march, we do reach out to the Mormon
Speaker 5: prophet and we write a letter and we ask him
Speaker 5: to change some of the policies.
Speaker 4: The prophet is like the Beyonce of the Mormon Church.
Speaker 4: He is a conduit to our heavenly Father and often
Speaker 4: dictates where the church stands on modern social issues.
Speaker 5: So we've made some headway. Once upon a time they
Speaker 5: had an awful rule that said, you can't baptize people
Speaker 5: if your parents are in the same sex relationship, you
Speaker 5: cannot be baptized. Which was really awful and quite an
Speaker 5: ugly rule, and they changed it two years after we
Speaker 5: marched in twenty eighteen. We weren't the only ones that
Speaker 5: asked them to change the policy. There were other people
Speaker 5: in the world that joined us as well. It was
Speaker 5: a comradeship effort.
Speaker 4: The stakes were extremely high for Brad. He's a sixth
Speaker 4: generation Mormon with pioneer lineage, but with a clear sense
Speaker 4: of self.
Speaker 5: He came out and they were shocked and Mum said, no,
Speaker 5: please like girls, Brad, please like girls. I unfortunately had
Speaker 5: to let it down and say, look, I'm dating guys now,
Speaker 5: and this is different from what you've been used to.
Speaker 5: They still deeply go to church every week they attend
Speaker 5: and they receive teachings from the church that gay is
Speaker 5: not okay. This is very difficult for them. My father
Speaker 5: has the most problems with it. MO Mum is an advocate,
Speaker 5: she's embraced she had turned around it and she voted
Speaker 5: yes for marriage equality. But my dad, my dad voted no.
Speaker 5: He voted against it.
Speaker 4: When it came to Brad's local congregation, his branch, the
Speaker 4: reaction was a little different. Homophobia ran rampant in all
Speaker 4: levels of that church, So this isn't a surprise to
Speaker 4: me at all. The loving community we build as members
Speaker 4: from birth all but falls apart when our queerness comes
Speaker 4: into play.
Speaker 5: The bishop called me up and wanted to excommunicate me,
Speaker 5: and this was an awful thing to have happened because
Speaker 5: I was gay. He said, I've heard the rumors from
Speaker 5: your wife and we want to excommunicate you.
Speaker 4: The wife in question was from Brad's second marriage.
Speaker 5: We fell out of love. My wife didn't want to
Speaker 5: be with me anymore, and so I was going through divorce.
Speaker 5: And this made me feel like I should be true
Speaker 5: to everyone about my sexuality. So as I've got the
Speaker 5: people that have turned on me and have asked me
Speaker 5: off communications, and then I've got the other side of
Speaker 5: people that have continued the communications with me and are
Speaker 5: still positive and they go to church, but they still
Speaker 5: engage with me in a positive way.
Speaker 4: While my bishop never tried to excommunicate me, at least
Speaker 4: that I know of, my experience was somewhat similar to Brad's.
Speaker 4: When I hit puberty and actualized my gayiness, I consciously
Speaker 4: uncoupled from the church. People started treating me different. There
Speaker 4: were those tough boys again, who tease that I walked
Speaker 4: to girly. There were others who did it behind my back,
Speaker 4: exchanging sinful theories, hushed conversations. I thought it was impossible
Speaker 4: for spirituality and sexuality to coexist, and I've carried that
Speaker 4: confusion and internal conflict since testing one, two three, testing
Speaker 4: huh speak Hello, Hello, oh Hello. It's like we're sitting
Speaker 4: next to each other. We are seven years away. How
Speaker 4: crazy is that? With this question heavy on my mind,
Speaker 4: I caught up with my friend Lama, a fellow queer Mormon.
Speaker 4: We met as adults, but as kids we were part
Speaker 4: of neighboring branches that would have crossed paths at some point.
Speaker 4: He left two, but he soon found his way back.
Speaker 6: I feel like I'm one of the very lucky cases
Speaker 6: where whether it's my family or the people within the
Speaker 6: church who have just like really embraced me for the
Speaker 6: person that I am to my face at least, like
Speaker 6: I always chuck it up to. These people have every
Speaker 6: single thing and they're asking to be like, I hate you,
Speaker 6: I don't want anything to do with you, but I
Speaker 6: have been met with nothing but love from my friends.
Speaker 6: Leaders A bit of a different story, but you know what,
Speaker 6: people aren't perfect, so can the two actually coexist?
Speaker 4: I was never quite sure, but Brad is.
Speaker 5: This is a misconception, a huge misconception in the gay
Speaker 5: community and LGBTQIA plus a lot of people believe that
Speaker 5: you cannot have faith and still be gay that I
Speaker 5: don't believe those two things can coexist. And this is
Speaker 5: so wrong. It's so wrong. There are so many gay
Speaker 5: people out there that have faith in a God, or
Speaker 5: spirituality or a being, and.
Speaker 4: Brad's words give me comfort. Maybe spirituality and sexuality aren't
Speaker 4: two completely different things after all. The way I see
Speaker 4: it at both their cores is a fundamental truth. Love
Speaker 4: conquers all.
Speaker 7: And has given me home with peer, with kind and.
Speaker 4: Leave me God me, saide.
Speaker 5: Me, he me fine.
Speaker 4: As much as I've drawn the line with the church,
Speaker 4: I guess there are some things about it that I
Speaker 4: hope to never shake, parts of the faith that have
Speaker 4: made me who I am now. And them thinks so too, Ingrat,
Speaker 4: that's faith in your head.
Speaker 6: That is like, you know what, even though like you've
Speaker 6: distanced yourself from the church from a very young age,
Speaker 6: it's still so present in you. Is this so crazy?
Speaker 6: Is it? It is? You're always like, is the anything I
Speaker 6: can do? Do you want me to do this? Do
Speaker 6: you want me to hold Like it's whether that is
Speaker 6: something that is ingrained in us as being members, or
Speaker 6: if that's just who you are, but like you know,
Speaker 6: it's just so present, it's still active in your mind.
Speaker 4: Leaving the church, I had to let go of so
Speaker 4: many things, the camaraderie, the community, the friendships. But they're
Speaker 4: not gone, not really, They're still here, just not in
Speaker 4: the confines of a chalky white hallway.
Speaker 2: Oh Mark, congratulations, Oh thank you.
Speaker 3: What a beautiful pace of work. And also I learned
Speaker 3: so much.
Speaker 2: You know, what really struck me was the use of
Speaker 2: music and how you used not just the voices of
Speaker 2: church choirs, but quite different church choirs to build tension,
Speaker 2: to sort of calm me back down again, and then
Speaker 2: to hear you singing at the end there.
Speaker 3: It was really elegantly done. When you went into this process.
Speaker 2: Was music something you were thinking about from the beginning
Speaker 2: or did that come in at a later stage.
Speaker 4: Music individually is such a big part of who I am.
Speaker 4: I love singing, not that well as we just heard.
Speaker 4: Actually some of those hymns are my own recording. I
Speaker 4: went to the church. I visited sacrament for the first time,
Speaker 4: I would say in like upwards of ten years more.
Speaker 4: Even more so, this is the first time I went
Speaker 4: with my sister and my mum, who are still active
Speaker 4: in the church. I recorded it and it was just
Speaker 4: like calming presents. Hymns have always been so calming for me,
Speaker 4: so I knew I definitely wanted to include that in
Speaker 4: the episode.
Speaker 2: Tell me about the two interviews with Brad and with Lamart.
Speaker 2: Why did you choose those two to speak to What
Speaker 2: did you want them to teach the audience through you?
Speaker 4: Lama, We've had so many conversations about this. It's just
Speaker 4: it's so funny. And I mentioned this in the episode.
Speaker 4: We would have seen each other at some point. We
Speaker 4: went to the same large events, we went to the
Speaker 4: same big congregations, but it was only until after we
Speaker 4: had both left the church that we had met and connected.
Speaker 4: And I think that there's an element of fate there.
Speaker 4: I think, you know, I needed to encounter someone who
Speaker 4: like me, grew up in a really similar environment. I
Speaker 4: guess I wanted to sort of know that I wasn't alone,
Speaker 4: that someone else struggled with this, that someone else had
Speaker 4: a really difficult time YEA. In terms of Brad, I
Speaker 4: think he brought a really logistical, pragmatic approach. He took
Speaker 4: some direct action, like he addressed the prophet and the presidents,
Speaker 4: some pretty high up people to make change and enact
Speaker 4: change and advocate for the queer community within the church,
Speaker 4: which to me was so shocking to hear because I'd
Speaker 4: never heard of that before. I never heard that. I
Speaker 4: knew that there were other queer people within the church,
Speaker 4: but I didn't know that there was people actively trying
Speaker 4: to make change and it was healing. It was healing.
Speaker 4: I was like, Oh my goodness, here's someone else who
Speaker 4: has figured things out in their own stage of their
Speaker 4: life and has used that empowerment to then do that
Speaker 4: for other people within the church, which is something that
Speaker 4: I'm hoping this episode does. I don't know if I'm
Speaker 4: ever going to ring up the profit. I don't know
Speaker 4: if I'm ever going to do that, but to know
Speaker 4: that there are people like Brad who are is such
Speaker 4: a healing thing for me, and I'm hoping for other
Speaker 4: people who listen to this too.
Speaker 2: You haven't eased yourself into this process in any way,
Speaker 2: have you. You've started with a combination of topics of
Speaker 2: sexuality and spirituality. You didn't like pick an easy theme
Speaker 2: to kick off. Why did you want to tell this story?
Speaker 4: I think there are just there are people who inherently
Speaker 4: struggle with those two things within them. And it was
Speaker 4: a journey that, like I said, was something that I'd
Speaker 4: been through, but so so so many other people have
Speaker 4: as well, and there are still people on this and
Speaker 4: he's struggling with that finding this perfect balance between oh
Speaker 4: my goodness, am I going to go to hell? Oh
Speaker 4: my goodness, can I love who I love freely? Or
Speaker 4: am I going to be exiled for this? Am I
Speaker 4: going to be punished for this? And that's been on
Speaker 4: my mind, I would say, since I was a little kid,
Speaker 4: and even up until now. And that is such a
Speaker 4: sad thing for a young person to go through, don't
Speaker 4: you think There's so many other things you need to
Speaker 4: be figuring out in this world, and then to then
Speaker 4: have to deal with that too must be such an
Speaker 4: intense burden.
Speaker 2: I suspect that there are a whole bunch of younger
Speaker 2: versions of yourself listening right now who are also going
Speaker 2: to benefit enormously from having heard that work.
Speaker 3: Well done. Congratulations Matt, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2: That was such a powerful way to kick off Unlikely Allies.
Speaker 2: In just a moment, you will meet our final storyteller.
Speaker 2: This is fine and tell where this week our storytellers
Speaker 2: are exploring the theme Unlikely Allies. We just heard from Mark.
Speaker 2: Let's meet our next and final storyteller.
Speaker 3: Hello.
Speaker 1: My name is Nan. I am from Stratfield in Sydney
Speaker 1: and I work as a news journalist. I like telling
Speaker 1: stories with really interesting and strong characters. With normal news reporting,
Speaker 1: there's certain styles and durations that really restrict the way
Speaker 1: you can tell a story. And there were so many
Speaker 1: stories that we were missing out on because a lot
Speaker 1: of it ends up on the cutting room floor. And
Speaker 1: I felt this way of storytelling would be a perfect
Speaker 1: opportunity to dig a little deeper and talk to people
Speaker 1: and explore topics that Australia might never be able to
Speaker 1: hear of.
Speaker 3: Naan, welcome to find and tell.
Speaker 1: Hello, thanks for having me.
Speaker 8: Now.
Speaker 2: Your background is in news journalism. What did it feel
Speaker 2: like moving into a space of telling stories that don't
Speaker 2: necessarily have that strong current affairs driver.
Speaker 1: It was like learning another language. To be honest, I
Speaker 1: thought everything I knew about storytelling just went out the window,
Speaker 1: because with news reporting, it's a lot of reacting to
Speaker 1: events or things that people have said. But in this case,
Speaker 1: you're actually proactively looking for a conflict or some sort
Speaker 1: of new fresh angles. So having to unearth that from
Speaker 1: nothing was a bit of a challenge in the beginning,
Speaker 1: but I think I got there in the end, I hope.
Speaker 2: So without giving it all away, what led you to
Speaker 2: the story we're about to hear?
Speaker 1: Growing up Asian in Australia, I've always been interested in
Speaker 1: other marginalized communities in society, especially in Australia and the world.
Speaker 1: And yeah, whenever there's misconceptions about a certain group of people,
Speaker 1: I tend to into that and see if there's a
Speaker 1: reason behind that, or some truth behind that, or yeah,
Speaker 1: why it's become that way. So that is what led
Speaker 1: me down this rabbit hole.
Speaker 2: All right, let's go down the rabbit hole with you.
Speaker 2: This is your first contribution to find and tell on
Speaker 2: the theme of unlikely allies.
Speaker 6: There's a dangerous threat spreading across the country right now,
Speaker 6: and I'm talking about of course.
Speaker 1: Karen's maybe you know a Karen.
Speaker 8: Does it bring up some weird things for you When
Speaker 8: I say Karen, Yeah, it's taken on a whole new
Speaker 8: and somewhat negative life on social media.
Speaker 1: Or maybe you are a Karen. There's no denying the
Speaker 1: name has come a long way from its Scandinavian origin, Catherine,
Speaker 1: meaning pure Karen is now synonymous with a demanding, entitled
Speaker 1: woman with a compulsive tendency to ask for the manager.
Speaker 1: She's usually middle aged, white and has a bobcut too.
Speaker 2: My definition of Karen would probably be a lady that
Speaker 2: seems to be overly involved in other people's business.
Speaker 1: A Karen is a miserable, middle aged woman who is
Speaker 1: intent on making everyone else just as miserable as she.
Speaker 5: Is, looking down their nose at everything, just looking for something,
Speaker 5: looking for a problem everywhere.
Speaker 1: It wasn't until the pandemic that the K word became
Speaker 1: a regular fixture here in Australia. Social distancing, lockdowns and
Speaker 1: mandatory mask wearing set the stage for some very unhappy
Speaker 1: and very vocal karens. We met Karen from Brighton in
Speaker 1: July twenty twenty when she complained about the lockdown walks
Speaker 1: around her beachside suburb.
Speaker 4: Well, you get sick of walking the same streets.
Speaker 3: You know I've done I've done all of Brighton.
Speaker 1: Just a few days later, another Karen emerged, this time
Speaker 1: from Bunning's.
Speaker 7: I'm just asking if you've got a mask well, and
Speaker 7: you are not all ask me or questioned me about it.
Speaker 1: While memes come and go, it really does seem this
Speaker 1: one is here to stay. In twenty twenty two, Karen
Speaker 1: dropped out of the most popular baby names list in
Speaker 1: the US for the first time. That same year, in
Speaker 1: the UK, only one baby Karen was registered. Like family,
Speaker 1: we don't get to choose our name. We also don't
Speaker 1: get to choose if it will turn into a meme
Speaker 1: one day. So what's a Karen to do?
Speaker 4: For me?
Speaker 9: The instinct is to laugh at it is to identify
Speaker 9: that stereotype.
Speaker 1: Karen James is a TV writer from South Africa. Ever
Speaker 1: since her name became internet shorthand for a certain type
Speaker 1: of entitled woman, she's been sent every Karen meme you
Speaker 1: could think of from her friends. But she doesn't get offended. Instead,
Speaker 1: she wants to dig a little deeper.
Speaker 9: You know why. It is funny where the truth is
Speaker 9: in that where the social kind of truth and and
Speaker 9: nuances lie.
Speaker 1: Karen saw how rampant that stereotype of a privileged white
Speaker 1: woman was, especially during the pandemic, but she also saw
Speaker 1: the benefits being confident and desertive. From there, the Karen
Speaker 1: Book of Rules was born. Written with another writer named
Speaker 1: Karen Karen Shimco, the book aims to show how we
Speaker 1: can use our Karenness for good.
Speaker 9: So the current Book of Rules as a bit of
Speaker 9: a tongue in cheek self help guide very much for
Speaker 9: how to use your carendness or your Karenness, your white privilege,
Speaker 9: I guess for good, how to be the best version
Speaker 9: of a Karen in this world.
Speaker 1: The book covers a range of social situations like zoom calls,
Speaker 1: dinner parties, and for those times when you actually need
Speaker 1: to speak to the manager. There's even a Karen checklist
Speaker 1: to help people's self diagnose. After all, anyone can be
Speaker 1: a Karen.
Speaker 9: Karen's come in all genders and races and shapes and sizes,
Speaker 9: and you can be guilty of those behaviors and centering
Speaker 9: yourself in the world even if you're not a white
Speaker 9: middle class woman. The underlying thing is, oh, this eurotype
Speaker 9: exists because the white middle class women move through the
Speaker 9: world in a certain way and occupy a certain space
Speaker 9: in society, and let's look at that. Let's critically kind
Speaker 9: of examine that.
Speaker 1: Karen argues that white women have more power than marginalized
Speaker 1: women in society, so they should harness they're in a
Speaker 1: Karen that outspoken confidence to help others when they can.
Speaker 9: If you're in a context where you have some social power,
Speaker 9: can you help anyone with That? Often happens with friends
Speaker 9: that they're looking to rent an apartment and people are
Speaker 9: maybe not taking their calls because they're black or whatever
Speaker 9: it might be. I've done that for people before they've
Speaker 9: asked me, please call and find out if this is
Speaker 9: still available and use your own nice white lady.
Speaker 4: Boys.
Speaker 1: On the other end of the Karen scale is one
Speaker 1: where you choose to be in the presence of Karen's
Speaker 1: excuse me, shut up and listen.
Speaker 5: This is Karen Sharon.
Speaker 1: Pritchard here at Karen's Diner. You'll be hard pressed to
Speaker 1: find a nice word anywhere. It's an Australian restaurant chain
Speaker 1: paying some sort of tribute to the stereotypically through middle
Speaker 1: aged Karen. Customers knowingly get roasted while trying to enjoy
Speaker 1: the meal. They paid for. But if your name is Karen,
Speaker 1: you get a free drink.
Speaker 8: I mean blowing out the candles on a kid's birthday
Speaker 8: cake before a chance too, Like who gets to do
Speaker 8: that and it's accepted and their parents piss themselves laughing.
Speaker 1: Amanda Jane Pritchard is a writer, performer and comedian for Melbourne,
Speaker 1: but her stint as a Karen at Karen Steiner is
Speaker 1: by far her favorite. She found it surprisingly easy to
Speaker 1: get into character, but soon found it difficult to separate
Speaker 1: from the role she was playing at work.
Speaker 8: It gets in your system being Karen. You come out
Speaker 8: of working like a four hour, five hour shift and
Speaker 8: I would walk down lag On Street in Melbourne and
Speaker 8: I would be like getting so frustrated with people who
Speaker 8: were slow walkers, and I would just be like, get
Speaker 8: out of the road. And then one day there was
Speaker 8: a pigeon in front of me and I yelled at
Speaker 8: the pigeon. I'm like, get out of the way, pigeon.
Speaker 1: The Karen character didn't just improve a comedy, it also
Speaker 1: showed Amanda how we're all vulnerable to Karen tendencies, whether
Speaker 1: we like it or not. But it turns out it's
Speaker 1: not the worst thing in the world.
Speaker 8: It's part of I think also just culturally and we
Speaker 8: expect everything immediately now and yeah, and we all feel
Speaker 8: really entitled. There's that element of being a Karen and
Speaker 8: people expect you to be nasty, but it's more for me.
Speaker 8: I took it as being quick and funny and like
Speaker 8: trying not to do the regular stuff that.
Speaker 4: You can do.
Speaker 1: Inspired by her work at the Diner, Amanda wrote a
Speaker 1: musical comedy. It's called The Unbearable Righteousness of Being Karen.
Speaker 1: The show uses all the tropes you'd expect from a
Speaker 1: modern day Karen, but surprisingly it's the real life Karen's
Speaker 1: having the last laugh.
Speaker 8: And a lot of Karen's came loads. That's the other
Speaker 8: thing the Diner and my show, a lot of people
Speaker 8: coming whose name is Karen, and they're just they're having
Speaker 8: fun with it. If a Karen person named Karen can
Speaker 8: have fun about it, then I think that's that's the key.
Speaker 1: It's fair to say Karens haven't been having a lot
Speaker 1: of lately. In nineteen sixty five, Karen was the most
Speaker 1: popular girl's name in Australia, but it's now the butt
Speaker 1: of many jokes. Behind every joke though there's always some
Speaker 1: truth in the case of Karen's, the meme has compelled
Speaker 1: us all to think about race, gender and power in
Speaker 1: our society. Take it from a real life Karen.
Speaker 9: There is an ease that white women have in society.
Speaker 9: Quite often, they are seen as non threatening by a
Speaker 9: lot of society. They are seen as having a certain
Speaker 9: status and ability to move through social hierarchies. And so
Speaker 9: instead of just using that in a selfish way and
Speaker 9: making it about yourself and what you want and what
Speaker 9: you need, use that more broadly for other people. I
Speaker 9: think that's how we Karen for.
Speaker 3: Good, Naan.
Speaker 2: That was so great to listen to, And that phrase
Speaker 2: I'm going to Karen for right there at the end
Speaker 2: is something I think we need to put on a billboard.
Speaker 1: It's a good motto to live by.
Speaker 3: I reckon, why.
Speaker 2: For you did the story of Karen need to be explored?
Speaker 2: What did you want to tell people about?
Speaker 1: I think because it's a word that's so ingrained in
Speaker 1: our vocabulary now that we don't even think twice when
Speaker 1: we use it and noticing it when it's hurt in context,
Speaker 1: you really think about, oh, what if someone is actually
Speaker 1: named Karen, or they don't have any agency over their names, so,
Speaker 1: you know, having lived their whole lives as a normal
Speaker 1: you know Karen, and then suddenly the whole world's against them.
Speaker 1: I thought, Yeah, they surely they'd have something they'd want
Speaker 1: to share and something they want other people to rethink,
Speaker 1: and yeah, just give them a second, second chance and
Speaker 1: a second take.
Speaker 2: With this kind of journalism, I think one of the
Speaker 2: pitfalls that creators can fall into is assuming knowledge because
Speaker 2: you don't know who your audience is, right, you don't
Speaker 2: know who's put their headphones on today and listening to
Speaker 2: your story. So how did you make choices about what
Speaker 2: information you needed to share upfront and immediately so that
Speaker 2: the audience had that base level of information to come
Speaker 2: into this with.
Speaker 1: So this story, I did a lot of research and
Speaker 1: went down lots of rabbit holes about Karen's and I
Speaker 1: found out that the general consensus and sentiment around the
Speaker 1: world towards Karen's is still quite negative.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's all these hate groups against Karen's on Facebook,
Speaker 1: or all these memes and dedicated YouTube channels like you know,
Speaker 1: Karen's in the Wild, So there was quite a lot
Speaker 1: of Still I felt a lot of hatred towards them.
Speaker 1: So there were lots of ways that I thought I
Speaker 1: could have went down and to do something serious or
Speaker 1: something as you know, hard hitting that I think would
Speaker 1: probably do Karen's a disservers and would project more of
Speaker 1: their curenners.
Speaker 3: I guess so.
Speaker 1: And I got the idea from talking to Karen James,
Speaker 1: the author of the Current Book of Rules, that Yeah,
Speaker 1: humor is the best way to educate people, and I
Speaker 1: thought taking this in a lighthearted, humoristic approach would get
Speaker 1: the message across more people, and more people would be
Speaker 1: inclined to listen to or want to listen to something
Speaker 1: about Karens.
Speaker 2: So any nervousness about this being heard by an audience,
Speaker 2: how do you think people will react?
Speaker 1: I am nervous about the Karens around the world hearing
Speaker 1: this particular story as well. Amanda one of the talents
Speaker 1: that I interviewed who did a musical comedy about Karens.
Speaker 1: She had a lot of Karens ride in and try
Speaker 1: to get her show canceled.
Speaker 3: So, oh wow, we've got to prepare ourselves. Yes, yes,
Speaker 3: let's the network know.
Speaker 1: Yes, So hopefully it's received well by them. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm more excited because I think I've probably been keeping
Speaker 1: this a secret from most people around me and finally
Speaker 1: letting them hear everything in its full glory without all
Speaker 1: the stress and all that panic that I went through.
Speaker 1: So I'm excited about that.
Speaker 2: Naon, congratulations again on your first Find and Tell story.
Speaker 3: I cannot wait to hear more.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Okay, it's time for me to pick who answered the theme
Speaker 2: of Unlikely Allies the best? Is it Naar or is
Speaker 2: it Mark? You will hear from the winner in just
Speaker 2: a moment. This is Fine and Tell and the theme
Speaker 2: this week was Unlikely Allies. From the opening lines of
Speaker 2: Mark's script, I thought he created real intrigue and interest
Speaker 2: in what is a really personal story. I loved how
Speaker 2: he used music to bring a real emotional sense of place,
Speaker 2: especially his own singing.
Speaker 3: That was very brave, very brave.
Speaker 2: In the future, I'd really love to see a bit
Speaker 2: more practice from Mark on his narration. I thought it
Speaker 2: was great scripting, but sounded a little bit like he
Speaker 2: was reading sometimes. Naon was super prof professional in the
Speaker 2: way she approached this, And when we're listening to something
Speaker 2: like that, you feel really comfortable, like the person in
Speaker 2: the driver's seat has got this under control. I was
Speaker 2: concerned that the prompt for this week's episode got a
Speaker 2: little lost In Naan's episode, it felt like a tenuous
Speaker 2: link to Unlikely Allies, and there was a lot going
Speaker 2: on in this episode. I think Naan tried to take
Speaker 2: a lot of content and shove it into a very
Speaker 2: short period of time, and while it can be really challenging,
Speaker 2: I'd love to see her edit a little bit more
Speaker 2: in her future episodes. After hearing both stories, I have
Speaker 2: decided who our winner is and Hey, Mark, it's going
Speaker 2: to be you. What.
Speaker 3: Congratulations?
Speaker 4: Oh my god, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Oh thank you, thank you for so generously sharing and
Speaker 2: taking us inside a part of your life and also
Speaker 2: a big part of who you are.
Speaker 4: Congratulations, Thank you. This isn't a win for me, This
Speaker 4: is a win for anyone else who struggles with their
Speaker 4: sexuality and their spirituality.
Speaker 2: So now you've heard from all four of our Find
Speaker 2: and Tell storytellers.
Speaker 3: Do you have a favorite yep?
Speaker 2: Find out all about them at find and tel dot
Speaker 2: com dot Au and make sure you don't miss our
Speaker 2: next episode. Just hit follow in your podcast app. Find
Speaker 2: and Tell is a co production between iHeart Australia and
Speaker 2: the black Cast podcast network. Black Cast empowers First Nations
Speaker 2: people and people of color to reclaim their narratives, strengthen
Speaker 2: cultural identity, and contribute to a more inclusive Australia by
Speaker 2: showcasing exciting emerging talent from Australian communities.