1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: My name's Noon. I'm a storyteller on Fine and Tell. 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: I'm Australian born Korean and I'm currently living on Gadigle Country. 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: I'd like to recognize the traditional custodians of this continent 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: whose land was stolen nearly two hundred and fifty years ago, 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: in particular the Camaragle and Wornderi people whose land this 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: podcast was recorded on, and we extended our respect to 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: all Aboriginal and Torres Right Islander peoples. The rich storytelling 8 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 1: history of the world's oldest living culture is what we 9 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: pay homage to when we tell stories on Fine and Tell. 10 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome back to Find and Tell the search 11 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 2: for the next generation of Australian storytellers. I'm Jamilla Risby 12 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: and after a nation wide search, we found four budding storytellers. 13 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 2: We've taught them the ropes of podcasting and set them 14 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: loose to find and. 15 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 3: Tell some stories. 16 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 2: Each episode, two of our storytellers go head to head 17 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: and share a story they've created based on a theme, 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 2: and just like you, I'm hearing them for the first 19 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: time before I gather my thoughts and decide the episode's winner. 20 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 2: No pressure, right, every win puts our storytellers closer to 21 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 2: being crowned our Find and Tell champion and winning a 22 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,839 Speaker 2: whole bunch of goodies from our friends at Rhode. Last episode, 23 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 2: it was Ben who took home the points, and now 24 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 2: we're about to hear from two new storytellers who will 25 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: battle it out over today's theme. Unlikely Allies, All right, 26 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: let's unearth our next storyteller. 27 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 4: Hi. My name is Mark Mariano. I am a queer 28 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 4: Filipino writer, model, and comedian from Blacktown in Western Sydney 29 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 4: on dark Land. I love capop, I love thrifting. I 30 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 4: love having a good bookie and telling a good story. 31 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 4: I'm currently a freelance writer. I'm a bit of a 32 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 4: jack of all trades. I've done stuff in TV, social media, 33 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 4: spoken word, Melatus gig was a food writing one, but 34 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 4: there were more stories outside of the food world that 35 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 4: I wanted to tell. So my friend sent me this 36 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 4: incredible call out for Find and Tell and it sounded 37 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 4: like exactly what I wanted to do. I'm so glad 38 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 4: that I did because the stories that we've put together 39 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 4: are just so heartwarming, so wholesome, and I can't wait 40 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:12,679 Speaker 4: for you to hear them. 41 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 3: Hi, Mark, welcome to find and tell Hi. 42 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 4: Hello, how are you? 43 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: It is so lovely to see you, and I'm very 44 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: excited to hear all about the story that you've created 45 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: and your very first story of the show. 46 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 4: Oh my goodness, I'm so excited. 47 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: So this week's theme is unlikely Allies. Tell me when 48 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: you first heard that theme, excited, stressed, tense. 49 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 4: I was like, am I going to have to fight someone? 50 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 4: Am I? 51 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 3: Yeah? 52 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 2: Who will my allies be? Who will my unlikely allies be? 53 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 4: My mind went in so many different directions, and then 54 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 4: it wasn't until I spoke to one of my producers 55 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 4: where it was like, why don't we do something a 56 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,839 Speaker 4: little bit more personal? Like why don't we do something 57 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 4: that's a bit close to home? And so it's a 58 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 4: little scary. I'm a little scared to have it out 59 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 4: in but at the same time, I'm I think this 60 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 4: is a really important story to tell, So I'm excited. 61 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 3: What kind of stories do you like to hear? 62 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 2: So put yourself in the shoes of the audience as 63 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 2: opposed to the podcaster. 64 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 3: What do you like to listen to? 65 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 4: Well, I'm a bit trashy. I is good because I 66 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 4: feel like podcasts are such an intimate form, and so 67 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 4: when I listen to podcasts, that's where I often go 68 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 4: when I want to hear about what a celebrity feels 69 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 4: like or what a celebrity is going through. I feel 70 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 4: like there's a lot of time and a lot of 71 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 4: a lot of room on podcasts to really dig deep 72 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 4: and really sort of be vulnerable. I'm very like person driven, 73 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 4: and so when I search my podcast I'm like, who 74 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 4: is who is someone that I want to know more about? 75 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 4: Who is someone with complex traumas who presents a different 76 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:54,119 Speaker 4: way but what we want to trauma exactly? 77 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 5: Mark? 78 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 2: Without giving too much away, what led you to today's story? 79 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 4: Well, you know, I have a really complicated relationship with 80 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 4: spirituality and religion, and you know, as someone who's proudly queer, 81 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 4: I think this is something that has been on my 82 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 4: mind on a lot, and I thought I was alone 83 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 4: in this experience, but you know, after, you know, speaking 84 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 4: to others who are in a similar space, you know 85 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 4: I'm not alone, and I wanted to sort of dig 86 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 4: a little bit deeper. What does it actually mean to 87 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 4: be a queer person who has ties to a religion 88 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 4: or who was born and raised in a religion like myself. 89 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 4: So I'm hoping the episode turned out okay, and then 90 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 4: I'm not slandering any you know, religious figures. I'm sorry, 91 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 4: so hopefully no blessed with me today, but we'll tell 92 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 4: a good story in the meantime. 93 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: Oh, you've definitely piqued my interest, Mark, so let's get started. 94 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 2: Let's hear you'll find and tell first story, which is 95 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 2: all about unlikely allies. 96 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,239 Speaker 4: My last day as a member of the Mormon Church 97 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 4: was just like any other Sunday. I wore a tie 98 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 4: that strangled my double chin and a hand me down 99 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 4: button up shirt that desperately needed an iron. I hugged 100 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 4: my friends goodbye and ignored the weird looks from the 101 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 4: tough boys in my scripture class that made fun of 102 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 4: my high pitched voice. My normally heavy red Bible holder 103 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 4: felt lighter as I swayed out of those holy whole ways. 104 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 4: I settled in my mom's white Toyota echo Beyonce's halo 105 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 4: blasting on the radio, and as we drove home, the 106 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 4: church got smaller and smaller in my mother's rear view. 107 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 4: But I never looked back once. Mormonism is one of 108 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 4: the more illusive Christian religions, and not many people know 109 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 4: about it. The Book of Mormon musical really helped bring 110 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 4: it into the zeitgeist. But I'm sure I made the 111 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 4: faith look a little silly and confusing as well. I 112 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 4: was born into the church, and while I left it 113 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 4: as a young teenager, I know enough to answer some 114 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 4: frequently asked question. Gens, Can Mormons drink coffee? So under 115 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 4: the faith's Word of Wisdom doctrine they actually can't. Something 116 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 4: about not being able to have hot drinks. Mormons in 117 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 4: general tend to avoid caffeine, and yes, that also means 118 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 4: a crisp glass of Coca cola. Can Mormons get divorced? Yes, 119 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 4: but with a lot of steps and counseling and red tape. 120 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 4: As my parents found during theirs. What is Mormon soaking? 121 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 4: It's weirdly not what you think. It's probably worse. So 122 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 4: it's a bit of a premarital sex loophole, a way 123 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 4: of getting it on without actually doing the physical act. 124 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 4: It went viral on TikTok in case you want to 125 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 4: go down that Internet rabbit hole, but please google at 126 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 4: your own risk. Can Mormons be queer? Hmm? This question 127 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 4: has been on my mind, my whole life. Can sexuality 128 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 4: and spirituality coexist? From an official standpoint? The Human Rights 129 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 4: Campaign reported from the church website that the experience of 130 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 4: same sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. 131 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 4: The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on 132 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 4: it is. The Church actually considers Mormons who act on 133 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 4: feelings of same sex attraction to have disobeyed church teachings 134 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 4: on morality and thus are subject to discipline. Brad Harker 135 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 4: is the founder of the Peacock Mormons, who are working 136 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 4: to challenge the current policies and systems in place. 137 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 5: Peacock Mormons started in twenty eighteen. We were just a 138 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 5: group of eighty of us. Most of us were Mormons. 139 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 5: Some of them were friends and were allies that wanted 140 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 5: to support us in the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, 141 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 5: and we marched in the Mormon missionary attire, which you 142 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 5: know is the white shirt and the badge and the tie. 143 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 5: The badge said Elder Equality on it. We mass for equality. 144 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 4: So I actually saw the Peacock Mormons march in the 145 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 4: twenty twenty three Sydney Gain Lesbian Martigars parade. They were 146 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 4: dressed in glittery gold in homage to the Golden Angel 147 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 4: Moroneye statue at the peak of every Mormon church building. 148 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 4: Moroneye was a warrior and a catalyst for the Mormon Church, 149 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 4: a shining beacon, guiding people, even the founder, Joseph Smith 150 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 4: to the faith. If I'm going to be honest, I 151 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 4: was a little taken aback. First. I was angry that 152 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 4: the church, in a presumably official capacity, was marching, like 153 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 4: how dare they? After a few deep breaths, the anger 154 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 4: subsided and a larger truth came over that other gay 155 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 4: Mormons existed and that I wasn't alone. 156 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 5: It was like a statement, a beautiful statement. And every 157 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 5: time we march, we do reach out to the Mormon 158 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 5: prophet and we write a letter and we ask him 159 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 5: to change some of the policies. 160 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 4: The prophet is like the Beyonce of the Mormon Church. 161 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 4: He is a conduit to our heavenly Father and often 162 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 4: dictates where the church stands on modern social issues. 163 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 5: So we've made some headway. Once upon a time they 164 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 5: had an awful rule that said, you can't baptize people 165 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 5: if your parents are in the same sex relationship, you 166 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 5: cannot be baptized. Which was really awful and quite an 167 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 5: ugly rule, and they changed it two years after we 168 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 5: marched in twenty eighteen. We weren't the only ones that 169 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 5: asked them to change the policy. There were other people 170 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 5: in the world that joined us as well. It was 171 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 5: a comradeship effort. 172 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 4: The stakes were extremely high for Brad. He's a sixth 173 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 4: generation Mormon with pioneer lineage, but with a clear sense 174 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 4: of self. 175 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 5: He came out and they were shocked and Mum said, no, 176 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 5: please like girls, Brad, please like girls. I unfortunately had 177 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 5: to let it down and say, look, I'm dating guys now, 178 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 5: and this is different from what you've been used to. 179 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 5: They still deeply go to church every week they attend 180 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 5: and they receive teachings from the church that gay is 181 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 5: not okay. This is very difficult for them. My father 182 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 5: has the most problems with it. MO Mum is an advocate, 183 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 5: she's embraced she had turned around it and she voted 184 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 5: yes for marriage equality. But my dad, my dad voted no. 185 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 5: He voted against it. 186 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 4: When it came to Brad's local congregation, his branch, the 187 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 4: reaction was a little different. Homophobia ran rampant in all 188 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 4: levels of that church, So this isn't a surprise to 189 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 4: me at all. The loving community we build as members 190 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 4: from birth all but falls apart when our queerness comes 191 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 4: into play. 192 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 5: The bishop called me up and wanted to excommunicate me, 193 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 5: and this was an awful thing to have happened because 194 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 5: I was gay. He said, I've heard the rumors from 195 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 5: your wife and we want to excommunicate you. 196 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 4: The wife in question was from Brad's second marriage. 197 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 5: We fell out of love. My wife didn't want to 198 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 5: be with me anymore, and so I was going through divorce. 199 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 5: And this made me feel like I should be true 200 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 5: to everyone about my sexuality. So as I've got the 201 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 5: people that have turned on me and have asked me 202 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 5: off communications, and then I've got the other side of 203 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 5: people that have continued the communications with me and are 204 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 5: still positive and they go to church, but they still 205 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 5: engage with me in a positive way. 206 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 4: While my bishop never tried to excommunicate me, at least 207 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 4: that I know of, my experience was somewhat similar to Brad's. 208 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 4: When I hit puberty and actualized my gayiness, I consciously 209 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 4: uncoupled from the church. People started treating me different. There 210 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 4: were those tough boys again, who tease that I walked 211 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 4: to girly. There were others who did it behind my back, 212 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:03,359 Speaker 4: exchanging sinful theories, hushed conversations. I thought it was impossible 213 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 4: for spirituality and sexuality to coexist, and I've carried that 214 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 4: confusion and internal conflict since testing one, two three, testing 215 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 4: huh speak Hello, Hello, oh Hello. It's like we're sitting 216 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 4: next to each other. We are seven years away. How 217 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 4: crazy is that? With this question heavy on my mind, 218 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 4: I caught up with my friend Lama, a fellow queer Mormon. 219 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 4: We met as adults, but as kids we were part 220 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 4: of neighboring branches that would have crossed paths at some point. 221 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 4: He left two, but he soon found his way back. 222 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 6: I feel like I'm one of the very lucky cases 223 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 6: where whether it's my family or the people within the 224 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 6: church who have just like really embraced me for the 225 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 6: person that I am to my face at least, like 226 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 6: I always chuck it up to. These people have every 227 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 6: single thing and they're asking to be like, I hate you, 228 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 6: I don't want anything to do with you, but I 229 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 6: have been met with nothing but love from my friends. 230 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 6: Leaders A bit of a different story, but you know what, 231 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 6: people aren't perfect, so can the two actually coexist? 232 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 4: I was never quite sure, but Brad is. 233 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 5: This is a misconception, a huge misconception in the gay 234 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 5: community and LGBTQIA plus a lot of people believe that 235 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 5: you cannot have faith and still be gay that I 236 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 5: don't believe those two things can coexist. And this is 237 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 5: so wrong. It's so wrong. There are so many gay 238 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 5: people out there that have faith in a God, or 239 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 5: spirituality or a being, and. 240 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 4: Brad's words give me comfort. Maybe spirituality and sexuality aren't 241 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 4: two completely different things after all. The way I see 242 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 4: it at both their cores is a fundamental truth. Love 243 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 4: conquers all. 244 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 7: And has given me home with peer, with kind and. 245 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 4: Leave me God me, saide. 246 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 5: Me, he me fine. 247 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 4: As much as I've drawn the line with the church, 248 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 4: I guess there are some things about it that I 249 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 4: hope to never shake, parts of the faith that have 250 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 4: made me who I am now. And them thinks so too, Ingrat, 251 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 4: that's faith in your head. 252 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 6: That is like, you know what, even though like you've 253 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 6: distanced yourself from the church from a very young age, 254 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 6: it's still so present in you. Is this so crazy? 255 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 6: Is it? It is? You're always like, is the anything I 256 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 6: can do? Do you want me to do this? Do 257 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 6: you want me to hold Like it's whether that is 258 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 6: something that is ingrained in us as being members, or 259 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 6: if that's just who you are, but like you know, 260 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 6: it's just so present, it's still active in your mind. 261 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 4: Leaving the church, I had to let go of so 262 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 4: many things, the camaraderie, the community, the friendships. But they're 263 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 4: not gone, not really, They're still here, just not in 264 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 4: the confines of a chalky white hallway. 265 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 2: Oh Mark, congratulations, Oh thank you. 266 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 3: What a beautiful pace of work. And also I learned 267 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 3: so much. 268 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 2: You know, what really struck me was the use of 269 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 2: music and how you used not just the voices of 270 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 2: church choirs, but quite different church choirs to build tension, 271 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: to sort of calm me back down again, and then 272 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: to hear you singing at the end there. 273 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 3: It was really elegantly done. When you went into this process. 274 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 2: Was music something you were thinking about from the beginning 275 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: or did that come in at a later stage. 276 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 4: Music individually is such a big part of who I am. 277 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 4: I love singing, not that well as we just heard. 278 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 4: Actually some of those hymns are my own recording. I 279 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 4: went to the church. I visited sacrament for the first time, 280 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 4: I would say in like upwards of ten years more. 281 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 4: Even more so, this is the first time I went 282 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 4: with my sister and my mum, who are still active 283 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 4: in the church. I recorded it and it was just 284 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 4: like calming presents. Hymns have always been so calming for me, 285 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 4: so I knew I definitely wanted to include that in 286 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 4: the episode. 287 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 2: Tell me about the two interviews with Brad and with Lamart. 288 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 2: Why did you choose those two to speak to What 289 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 2: did you want them to teach the audience through you? 290 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 4: Lama, We've had so many conversations about this. It's just 291 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 4: it's so funny. And I mentioned this in the episode. 292 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 4: We would have seen each other at some point. We 293 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 4: went to the same large events, we went to the 294 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 4: same big congregations, but it was only until after we 295 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 4: had both left the church that we had met and connected. 296 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 4: And I think that there's an element of fate there. 297 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 4: I think, you know, I needed to encounter someone who 298 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 4: like me, grew up in a really similar environment. I 299 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 4: guess I wanted to sort of know that I wasn't alone, 300 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 4: that someone else struggled with this, that someone else had 301 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,719 Speaker 4: a really difficult time YEA. In terms of Brad, I 302 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 4: think he brought a really logistical, pragmatic approach. He took 303 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 4: some direct action, like he addressed the prophet and the presidents, 304 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 4: some pretty high up people to make change and enact 305 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 4: change and advocate for the queer community within the church, 306 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 4: which to me was so shocking to hear because I'd 307 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 4: never heard of that before. I never heard that. I 308 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 4: knew that there were other queer people within the church, 309 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 4: but I didn't know that there was people actively trying 310 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 4: to make change and it was healing. It was healing. 311 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 4: I was like, Oh my goodness, here's someone else who 312 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 4: has figured things out in their own stage of their 313 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 4: life and has used that empowerment to then do that 314 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 4: for other people within the church, which is something that 315 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 4: I'm hoping this episode does. I don't know if I'm 316 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 4: ever going to ring up the profit. I don't know 317 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 4: if I'm ever going to do that, but to know 318 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 4: that there are people like Brad who are is such 319 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 4: a healing thing for me, and I'm hoping for other 320 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 4: people who listen to this too. 321 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: You haven't eased yourself into this process in any way, 322 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 2: have you. You've started with a combination of topics of 323 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 2: sexuality and spirituality. You didn't like pick an easy theme 324 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 2: to kick off. Why did you want to tell this story? 325 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 4: I think there are just there are people who inherently 326 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 4: struggle with those two things within them. And it was 327 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 4: a journey that, like I said, was something that I'd 328 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 4: been through, but so so so many other people have 329 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 4: as well, and there are still people on this and 330 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 4: he's struggling with that finding this perfect balance between oh 331 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 4: my goodness, am I going to go to hell? Oh 332 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 4: my goodness, can I love who I love freely? Or 333 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 4: am I going to be exiled for this? Am I 334 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 4: going to be punished for this? And that's been on 335 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 4: my mind, I would say, since I was a little kid, 336 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 4: and even up until now. And that is such a 337 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 4: sad thing for a young person to go through, don't 338 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 4: you think There's so many other things you need to 339 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 4: be figuring out in this world, and then to then 340 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 4: have to deal with that too must be such an 341 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 4: intense burden. 342 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 2: I suspect that there are a whole bunch of younger 343 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 2: versions of yourself listening right now who are also going 344 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 2: to benefit enormously from having heard that work. 345 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 3: Well done. Congratulations Matt, thank you, thank you. 346 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 2: That was such a powerful way to kick off Unlikely Allies. 347 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 2: In just a moment, you will meet our final storyteller. 348 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: This is fine and tell where this week our storytellers 349 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 2: are exploring the theme Unlikely Allies. We just heard from Mark. 350 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: Let's meet our next and final storyteller. 351 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 3: Hello. 352 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: My name is Nan. I am from Stratfield in Sydney 353 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: and I work as a news journalist. I like telling 354 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: stories with really interesting and strong characters. With normal news reporting, 355 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: there's certain styles and durations that really restrict the way 356 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: you can tell a story. And there were so many 357 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: stories that we were missing out on because a lot 358 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: of it ends up on the cutting room floor. And 359 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: I felt this way of storytelling would be a perfect 360 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: opportunity to dig a little deeper and talk to people 361 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: and explore topics that Australia might never be able to 362 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 1: hear of. 363 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 3: Naan, welcome to find and tell. 364 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: Hello, thanks for having me. 365 00:20:58,680 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 8: Now. 366 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 2: Your background is in news journalism. What did it feel 367 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 2: like moving into a space of telling stories that don't 368 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 2: necessarily have that strong current affairs driver. 369 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: It was like learning another language. To be honest, I 370 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: thought everything I knew about storytelling just went out the window, 371 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: because with news reporting, it's a lot of reacting to 372 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: events or things that people have said. But in this case, 373 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: you're actually proactively looking for a conflict or some sort 374 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: of new fresh angles. So having to unearth that from 375 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: nothing was a bit of a challenge in the beginning, 376 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: but I think I got there in the end, I hope. 377 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 2: So without giving it all away, what led you to 378 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 2: the story we're about to hear? 379 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: Growing up Asian in Australia, I've always been interested in 380 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: other marginalized communities in society, especially in Australia and the world. 381 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: And yeah, whenever there's misconceptions about a certain group of people, 382 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: I tend to into that and see if there's a 383 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: reason behind that, or some truth behind that, or yeah, 384 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: why it's become that way. So that is what led 385 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: me down this rabbit hole. 386 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 2: All right, let's go down the rabbit hole with you. 387 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 2: This is your first contribution to find and tell on 388 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 2: the theme of unlikely allies. 389 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 6: There's a dangerous threat spreading across the country right now, 390 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 6: and I'm talking about of course. 391 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: Karen's maybe you know a Karen. 392 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 8: Does it bring up some weird things for you When 393 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 8: I say Karen, Yeah, it's taken on a whole new 394 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 8: and somewhat negative life on social media. 395 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: Or maybe you are a Karen. There's no denying the 396 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: name has come a long way from its Scandinavian origin, Catherine, 397 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 1: meaning pure Karen is now synonymous with a demanding, entitled 398 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: woman with a compulsive tendency to ask for the manager. 399 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: She's usually middle aged, white and has a bobcut too. 400 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 2: My definition of Karen would probably be a lady that 401 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 2: seems to be overly involved in other people's business. 402 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: A Karen is a miserable, middle aged woman who is 403 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: intent on making everyone else just as miserable as she. 404 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 5: Is, looking down their nose at everything, just looking for something, 405 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 5: looking for a problem everywhere. 406 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 1: It wasn't until the pandemic that the K word became 407 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: a regular fixture here in Australia. Social distancing, lockdowns and 408 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: mandatory mask wearing set the stage for some very unhappy 409 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: and very vocal karens. We met Karen from Brighton in 410 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: July twenty twenty when she complained about the lockdown walks 411 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: around her beachside suburb. 412 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 4: Well, you get sick of walking the same streets. 413 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 3: You know I've done I've done all of Brighton. 414 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: Just a few days later, another Karen emerged, this time 415 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: from Bunning's. 416 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 7: I'm just asking if you've got a mask well, and 417 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 7: you are not all ask me or questioned me about it. 418 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: While memes come and go, it really does seem this 419 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: one is here to stay. In twenty twenty two, Karen 420 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 1: dropped out of the most popular baby names list in 421 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: the US for the first time. That same year, in 422 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: the UK, only one baby Karen was registered. Like family, 423 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 1: we don't get to choose our name. We also don't 424 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,360 Speaker 1: get to choose if it will turn into a meme 425 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: one day. So what's a Karen to do? 426 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 4: For me? 427 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 9: The instinct is to laugh at it is to identify 428 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 9: that stereotype. 429 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 1: Karen James is a TV writer from South Africa. Ever 430 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: since her name became internet shorthand for a certain type 431 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: of entitled woman, she's been sent every Karen meme you 432 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: could think of from her friends. But she doesn't get offended. Instead, 433 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:54,959 Speaker 1: she wants to dig a little deeper. 434 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 9: You know why. It is funny where the truth is 435 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 9: in that where the social kind of truth and and 436 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 9: nuances lie. 437 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: Karen saw how rampant that stereotype of a privileged white 438 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: woman was, especially during the pandemic, but she also saw 439 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: the benefits being confident and desertive. From there, the Karen 440 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: Book of Rules was born. Written with another writer named 441 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 1: Karen Karen Shimco, the book aims to show how we 442 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: can use our Karenness for good. 443 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 9: So the current Book of Rules as a bit of 444 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 9: a tongue in cheek self help guide very much for 445 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 9: how to use your carendness or your Karenness, your white privilege, 446 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 9: I guess for good, how to be the best version 447 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 9: of a Karen in this world. 448 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: The book covers a range of social situations like zoom calls, 449 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: dinner parties, and for those times when you actually need 450 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: to speak to the manager. There's even a Karen checklist 451 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: to help people's self diagnose. After all, anyone can be 452 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: a Karen. 453 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 9: Karen's come in all genders and races and shapes and sizes, 454 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 9: and you can be guilty of those behaviors and centering 455 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 9: yourself in the world even if you're not a white 456 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 9: middle class woman. The underlying thing is, oh, this eurotype 457 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 9: exists because the white middle class women move through the 458 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 9: world in a certain way and occupy a certain space 459 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 9: in society, and let's look at that. Let's critically kind 460 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 9: of examine that. 461 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: Karen argues that white women have more power than marginalized 462 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: women in society, so they should harness they're in a 463 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: Karen that outspoken confidence to help others when they can. 464 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 9: If you're in a context where you have some social power, 465 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 9: can you help anyone with That? Often happens with friends 466 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 9: that they're looking to rent an apartment and people are 467 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 9: maybe not taking their calls because they're black or whatever 468 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 9: it might be. I've done that for people before they've 469 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 9: asked me, please call and find out if this is 470 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 9: still available and use your own nice white lady. 471 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 4: Boys. 472 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: On the other end of the Karen scale is one 473 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 1: where you choose to be in the presence of Karen's 474 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: excuse me, shut up and listen. 475 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 5: This is Karen Sharon. 476 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: Pritchard here at Karen's Diner. You'll be hard pressed to 477 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: find a nice word anywhere. It's an Australian restaurant chain 478 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: paying some sort of tribute to the stereotypically through middle 479 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: aged Karen. Customers knowingly get roasted while trying to enjoy 480 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: the meal. They paid for. But if your name is Karen, 481 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: you get a free drink. 482 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 8: I mean blowing out the candles on a kid's birthday 483 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 8: cake before a chance too, Like who gets to do 484 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 8: that and it's accepted and their parents piss themselves laughing. 485 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: Amanda Jane Pritchard is a writer, performer and comedian for Melbourne, 486 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: but her stint as a Karen at Karen Steiner is 487 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: by far her favorite. She found it surprisingly easy to 488 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: get into character, but soon found it difficult to separate 489 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: from the role she was playing at work. 490 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 8: It gets in your system being Karen. You come out 491 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 8: of working like a four hour, five hour shift and 492 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 8: I would walk down lag On Street in Melbourne and 493 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 8: I would be like getting so frustrated with people who 494 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 8: were slow walkers, and I would just be like, get 495 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 8: out of the road. And then one day there was 496 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 8: a pigeon in front of me and I yelled at 497 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 8: the pigeon. I'm like, get out of the way, pigeon. 498 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: The Karen character didn't just improve a comedy, it also 499 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: showed Amanda how we're all vulnerable to Karen tendencies, whether 500 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: we like it or not. But it turns out it's 501 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: not the worst thing in the world. 502 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 8: It's part of I think also just culturally and we 503 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,719 Speaker 8: expect everything immediately now and yeah, and we all feel 504 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 8: really entitled. There's that element of being a Karen and 505 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 8: people expect you to be nasty, but it's more for me. 506 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 8: I took it as being quick and funny and like 507 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 8: trying not to do the regular stuff that. 508 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 4: You can do. 509 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: Inspired by her work at the Diner, Amanda wrote a 510 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: musical comedy. It's called The Unbearable Righteousness of Being Karen. 511 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: The show uses all the tropes you'd expect from a 512 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: modern day Karen, but surprisingly it's the real life Karen's 513 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: having the last laugh. 514 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 8: And a lot of Karen's came loads. That's the other 515 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 8: thing the Diner and my show, a lot of people 516 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 8: coming whose name is Karen, and they're just they're having 517 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 8: fun with it. If a Karen person named Karen can 518 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 8: have fun about it, then I think that's that's the key. 519 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: It's fair to say Karens haven't been having a lot 520 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: of lately. In nineteen sixty five, Karen was the most 521 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: popular girl's name in Australia, but it's now the butt 522 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: of many jokes. Behind every joke though there's always some 523 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: truth in the case of Karen's, the meme has compelled 524 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: us all to think about race, gender and power in 525 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: our society. Take it from a real life Karen. 526 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 9: There is an ease that white women have in society. 527 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 9: Quite often, they are seen as non threatening by a 528 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 9: lot of society. They are seen as having a certain 529 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 9: status and ability to move through social hierarchies. And so 530 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 9: instead of just using that in a selfish way and 531 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,239 Speaker 9: making it about yourself and what you want and what 532 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 9: you need, use that more broadly for other people. I 533 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 9: think that's how we Karen for. 534 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 3: Good, Naan. 535 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 2: That was so great to listen to, And that phrase 536 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to Karen for right there at the end 537 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 2: is something I think we need to put on a billboard. 538 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: It's a good motto to live by. 539 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 3: I reckon, why. 540 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 2: For you did the story of Karen need to be explored? 541 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 2: What did you want to tell people about? 542 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: I think because it's a word that's so ingrained in 543 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: our vocabulary now that we don't even think twice when 544 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: we use it and noticing it when it's hurt in context, 545 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: you really think about, oh, what if someone is actually 546 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: named Karen, or they don't have any agency over their names, so, 547 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: you know, having lived their whole lives as a normal 548 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: you know Karen, and then suddenly the whole world's against them. 549 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: I thought, Yeah, they surely they'd have something they'd want 550 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: to share and something they want other people to rethink, 551 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: and yeah, just give them a second, second chance and 552 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: a second take. 553 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,239 Speaker 2: With this kind of journalism, I think one of the 554 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 2: pitfalls that creators can fall into is assuming knowledge because 555 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 2: you don't know who your audience is, right, you don't 556 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 2: know who's put their headphones on today and listening to 557 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 2: your story. So how did you make choices about what 558 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 2: information you needed to share upfront and immediately so that 559 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 2: the audience had that base level of information to come 560 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 2: into this with. 561 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: So this story, I did a lot of research and 562 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: went down lots of rabbit holes about Karen's and I 563 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: found out that the general consensus and sentiment around the 564 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: world towards Karen's is still quite negative. 565 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 566 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's all these hate groups against Karen's on Facebook, 567 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: or all these memes and dedicated YouTube channels like you know, 568 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: Karen's in the Wild, So there was quite a lot 569 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: of Still I felt a lot of hatred towards them. 570 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: So there were lots of ways that I thought I 571 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: could have went down and to do something serious or 572 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: something as you know, hard hitting that I think would 573 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: probably do Karen's a disservers and would project more of 574 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: their curenners. 575 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 3: I guess so. 576 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: And I got the idea from talking to Karen James, 577 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: the author of the Current Book of Rules, that Yeah, 578 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: humor is the best way to educate people, and I 579 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: thought taking this in a lighthearted, humoristic approach would get 580 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: the message across more people, and more people would be 581 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: inclined to listen to or want to listen to something 582 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: about Karens. 583 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 2: So any nervousness about this being heard by an audience, 584 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 2: how do you think people will react? 585 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: I am nervous about the Karens around the world hearing 586 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: this particular story as well. Amanda one of the talents 587 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: that I interviewed who did a musical comedy about Karens. 588 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: She had a lot of Karens ride in and try 589 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: to get her show canceled. 590 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 3: So, oh wow, we've got to prepare ourselves. Yes, yes, 591 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 3: let's the network know. 592 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: Yes, So hopefully it's received well by them. And yeah, 593 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: I'm more excited because I think I've probably been keeping 594 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: this a secret from most people around me and finally 595 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: letting them hear everything in its full glory without all 596 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: the stress and all that panic that I went through. 597 00:33:58,600 --> 00:33:59,719 Speaker 1: So I'm excited about that. 598 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 2: Naon, congratulations again on your first Find and Tell story. 599 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 3: I cannot wait to hear more. 600 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: Thank you. 601 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 2: Okay, it's time for me to pick who answered the theme 602 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 2: of Unlikely Allies the best? Is it Naar or is 603 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 2: it Mark? You will hear from the winner in just 604 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 2: a moment. This is Fine and Tell and the theme 605 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 2: this week was Unlikely Allies. From the opening lines of 606 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 2: Mark's script, I thought he created real intrigue and interest 607 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 2: in what is a really personal story. I loved how 608 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 2: he used music to bring a real emotional sense of place, 609 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 2: especially his own singing. 610 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 3: That was very brave, very brave. 611 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 2: In the future, I'd really love to see a bit 612 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 2: more practice from Mark on his narration. I thought it 613 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 2: was great scripting, but sounded a little bit like he 614 00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 2: was reading sometimes. Naon was super prof professional in the 615 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 2: way she approached this, And when we're listening to something 616 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 2: like that, you feel really comfortable, like the person in 617 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 2: the driver's seat has got this under control. I was 618 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 2: concerned that the prompt for this week's episode got a 619 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 2: little lost In Naan's episode, it felt like a tenuous 620 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 2: link to Unlikely Allies, and there was a lot going 621 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 2: on in this episode. I think Naan tried to take 622 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 2: a lot of content and shove it into a very 623 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 2: short period of time, and while it can be really challenging, 624 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 2: I'd love to see her edit a little bit more 625 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 2: in her future episodes. After hearing both stories, I have 626 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 2: decided who our winner is and Hey, Mark, it's going 627 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 2: to be you. What. 628 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 3: Congratulations? 629 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,720 Speaker 4: Oh my god, thank you so much. 630 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 2: Oh thank you, thank you for so generously sharing and 631 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 2: taking us inside a part of your life and also 632 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 2: a big part of who you are. 633 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 4: Congratulations, Thank you. This isn't a win for me, This 634 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 4: is a win for anyone else who struggles with their 635 00:35:58,360 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 4: sexuality and their spirituality. 636 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 2: So now you've heard from all four of our Find 637 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 2: and Tell storytellers. 638 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 3: Do you have a favorite yep? 639 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 2: Find out all about them at find and tel dot 640 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 2: com dot Au and make sure you don't miss our 641 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 2: next episode. Just hit follow in your podcast app. Find 642 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 2: and Tell is a co production between iHeart Australia and 643 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 2: the black Cast podcast network. Black Cast empowers First Nations 644 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 2: people and people of color to reclaim their narratives, strengthen 645 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 2: cultural identity, and contribute to a more inclusive Australia by 646 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 2: showcasing exciting emerging talent from Australian communities.