1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,559 Speaker 1: I think we all feel ourselves a little bit into 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: thinking that we just need to be plugged into these 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: things for work or for you know what, if someone's 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: hurting they need me, I need to have my phone off. 5 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: People did just fine for a long time without smartphones, 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 1: And like I think even for my work, I'm a 7 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: tech reporter. Yeah, but like, do I really need to 8 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: be that aware of all of the latest news. 9 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: No, I don't. 10 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: Like I really don't need to be plugged into Twitter 11 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: as much as I am, or plugged into you know, 12 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,279 Speaker 1: reading technium or whatever, as much as I do. It's 13 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: at a certain point you have to like be honest 14 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: with yourself about what you actually need. 15 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 3: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 16 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,599 Speaker 3: you use by leading innovators to get so much out 17 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,639 Speaker 3: of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imbat. I'm 18 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 3: an organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed 19 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 3: with find ways to optimize my workday now. Today's guest 20 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 3: is Nellie Bowles, who is a writer for The New 21 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 3: York Times, where she covers technology and internet culture. Before 22 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 3: joining the Time, she was a correspondent for Vice News 23 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 3: Tonight and She's also written for Recode at The Guardian 24 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 3: and started her writing career at the San Francisco Chronicle. Now, 25 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 3: I met Nellie because she had reached out to interview 26 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 3: me for a story that she was writing about a Blassian, 27 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 3: and I then thought, Wow, wouldn't it be great to 28 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 3: talk to someone that writes for the New York Times, 29 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 3: which I feel like is pretty much the most prestigious 30 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 3: job if you're a journalist, and ask her about a 31 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 3: whole bunch of things. So we cover a lot of 32 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 3: ground in this interview. We talk about her process for 33 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 3: writing stories, why she doesn't like reading about people before 34 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 3: she interviews them, and also, when this is fascinating, why 35 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 3: she doesn't write her stories at a traditional desk. Now, 36 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 3: there were ironically some sound issues, which I think is 37 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 3: ironic given Nelly is a tech reporter, But there were 38 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 3: sound interviews issues during these interview, so we actually recorded 39 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 3: it on the phone, So it's not up to the 40 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 3: usual standard perhaps of other episodes you might have listened 41 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 3: to on How I Work. But I encourage you to 42 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 3: stick with it because I think Nellie's fascinating and there's 43 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 3: a whole bunch of really practical insights I think that 44 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: you can take away from this interview if doing some 45 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 3: writing and thinking of ideas and just general work is 46 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 3: part of what you do. So on that note, over 47 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 3: to Nelly to hear about how she works. 48 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: Nelly, welcome to the show. 49 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me on. Now I 50 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: want to. 51 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 2: Start with understanding how do you get a job writing 52 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: for the New York Times. I feel like that's the. 53 00:02:53,560 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: Pinacle for a journalist. So it does still feel funny 54 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: walking in every day and seeing the New York Times 55 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: lugo on the door. It is still very exciting. It started. 56 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: I am a local kid. I grew up in San Francisco. 57 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: I wrote for well. I started as an unpaid intern 58 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: at the San Francisco Chronicle. I had graduated college without 59 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: doing much journalism, and the chronicle internship was impossible to get. 60 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: And I couldn't get the paid one because I didn't 61 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: have any experience, and I couldn't get the unpaid one 62 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: because I wasn't a current student by California aluwio's current students. 63 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: So I signed up for classes at City College and 64 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: emailed them my registration and stead. Now I'm a current 65 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: students and so I started working there as an unpaid 66 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: intern for a few months and I lived at home, 67 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: and then they hired me as a staff writer. And 68 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: then I just walked my way up at the chronicles 69 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: and then and then turn abound stround. After that I 70 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: wrote for magazine and whatever. And about few years ago 71 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: now I started at the time. 72 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 2: Wow, and how did that opportunity come about? 73 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: Like, I like, you know, is it a job at online? 74 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: Is it someone you know? How does that happen? It 75 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: was me pitching the international tech coverage. Sauce runs the 76 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,799 Speaker 1: whole New York Times tech coverage. Fooling Tams is amazing. 77 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: It was basically me pitching her for about like two years, 78 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: and pitching the person before her for about a year, 79 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: the woman who ran it before, and just saying that 80 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: you guys should have a role of a person who 81 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: covers tech and culture, and whether it's me or not, 82 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: like you should have someone who's covering the culture of 83 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: bills on Valley, who's covering these people and the texture 84 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 1: and it's just what it's like here. And because my 85 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: argument basically was and still is that Silicon Valley is 86 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: not my business story. It's not a money story. It's 87 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: a culture story. It's a power story. And so I 88 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: just kept pitching a minute and then eventually I got 89 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: an email completely things talked, and then we talked and 90 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,799 Speaker 1: she said, look, you know that job you keep pitching 91 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: me out? And I was like yeah, and she looks like, 92 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: were you like out that position? Huh? And then and 93 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: then that's that funning. Wow, that's so cool. 94 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 2: So they basically created your own job at the New 95 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 2: York Times. 96 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: That's some years and years of begging. 97 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: I love it and persistent, and I want to, like, 98 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: I want to talk about writing, and I want to 99 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 2: I like, how did you learn to write? And by that, 100 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: I mean, like, what was sort of the pivotal moment 101 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: in in your educations that turns you into a better writer. 102 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: I remember, like in like third grade or something, we 103 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: were learning how to write poems and I wrote a 104 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 1: poem that my tuacher really liked, and it was like 105 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: so exciting to realize that there was this thing that 106 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: I was good at. You know, kids just like gravitate 107 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: towards what they feel they're being told they're good at. 108 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: I don't know how I learned to write. How do you? Like? 109 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: You just practiced and you read a lot, and you 110 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: try to copy people, and I like read a lot 111 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: of Jean Giddy and over and over and over again, 112 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: and tried my best just to copy that sound. Or 113 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: I read a lot of Ellen Berry's columns an amazing 114 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: con correspondent for the Time, over and over again, try 115 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: my best to mirror that tone or whatever. I kind 116 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: of would pick people and try to write in conversation 117 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: with them a little bit. And it's like the only 118 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: thing that suits my temperament too, because like I don't 119 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: have a very good attention span. I really have trouble 120 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: with authority figures, which was hard in school. I yeah, 121 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: and I like to write, so really not a good 122 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: attention span, troubled authority figures and likes to write. Journalist 123 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: is like the only career path that's open to you. Go. 124 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: I want to know, like when you're trying to emulate 125 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: a writer, which I feel in and of itself, like 126 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 2: thinking that might seem completely normal, but I feel like 127 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: solutions out there that are not writers. I think that's 128 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 2: a really interesting concept, Like what are the things that 129 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 2: you're looking for when, like when you've tried to emulate 130 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 2: other people's dials, Like what are those key things that 131 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: you're trying to I guess you know, kind of copy 132 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 2: in your way. 133 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: For me, I will recently, I really like whether let's 134 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: they're getting. I will often read it aloud to myself, 135 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: like to read a paragraph allowed just to get her 136 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: voice in her rhythm. And then when I'm writing my 137 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: own stories, I usually as I'm writing task got loud 138 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: to myself or I read it out loud to myself. 139 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: And if I don't do that, it's usually a worse story. 140 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: It usually means that it's not saying that much attention 141 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: in writing. But if I'm trying to like write something 142 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: really pretty, I want it to be yeah, I speak 143 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: it out loud. And so if I'm trying to any 144 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: way to writer, I kind of like try to get 145 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: their rid and their voice. It's I'm probably sounding crazy 146 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: not at all night, and I sound like I'm like 147 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: a nightmare coworker, and I ever know a coworker. I 148 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: am talking out loud a lot. But I don't see 149 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: this like every day. It's not like I'm like sitting 150 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: there like reading a writer and then writing a sentence, 151 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: like I'll try to absorb as much as I can, 152 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: Like right now, I just read. I just finished Marjorie 153 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 1: Williams's book. And she's a writer who lies. She was 154 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: a writer for the Washington Post who wrote some of 155 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: the most beautiful profiles of people in DC for much 156 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: of the nineties. And I write a book, I you know, 157 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: certain paragraphs would really pull out for me, and so 158 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 1: I would just say them out loud and then try 159 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 1: to incorporate some of that into my story. So she 160 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: had this one sentence. I'm going to give it a 161 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: little bit wrong, but it's like he had a smile, 162 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: like a lot of cash. And I just love that 163 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: sentence and I love the like insanity of it. And 164 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: I've tried to sort of incorporate more sentences myself. Yeah, 165 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: I think that's great. 166 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 2: It's interesting, the idea of reading out loud. I recently 167 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 2: interviewed Dan Pink's for the show, and he said the 168 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 2: exact same thing. He like, will literally read or ask 169 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: his wife to read his entire book out loud. 170 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: It's really good to do. Yeah, there are a lot 171 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 1: of really smart people who can articulate arguments really beautifully, 172 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 1: and you see them right, and they get all tangled 173 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: up in themselves and so and I find myself. I 174 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,719 Speaker 1: get all tangled up sometimes in my writing. And if 175 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 1: you just take it away and just like speak the story, 176 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: like say what you want, everything becomes very clear. I 177 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: think that's like a basic writing thing. I'm not discovering that, 178 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 1: but it really does help. Yeah, yeah, and I want 179 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: to know where where your idea is. The stories come 180 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: from all of those. Like so when I started, because 181 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 1: the first like until seven years of writing about San Francisco, 182 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 1: I mean I would go to like parties, and I 183 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: would go to events and conferences. I think that's whatever 184 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: like perked my ear up. And then if I was 185 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: just looking for something quick to do that week or 186 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: whatever that night, I would go to meetup dot com 187 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: or event write dot com and just see what was happening. 188 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 1: And then whatever looked interesting or weird or surprising or 189 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: something or a trend that you know, all these a 190 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,719 Speaker 1: bunch of events about this one thing, I would just go. 191 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: I usually you just kind of follow what's interesting to me, 192 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: because if I'm bored by something, certainly readers can be 193 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: bored in someone. 194 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 2: Do you have away or a messag of capturing different ideas, 195 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,119 Speaker 2: like you know, you go old school with a notepad 196 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 2: or use an ask like what does that look like 197 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: in terms of capturing your ideas or filing your ideas. 198 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: I have just a big note doc on my phone 199 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: just using this Apple note. It's very disorganized, and then 200 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: like other time, any thought that comes to my mind 201 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: and not and then every couple of weeks I put 202 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 1: that into a more cohesive Google doc that's sort of 203 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: like thoughts future story ideas. And then actually now transitioning, 204 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I start using trello. I'm have 205 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: you heard TrailO? 206 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 2: I certainly have yet. 207 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've had a quotes about it. Of course 208 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,719 Speaker 1: you've sort of trouble. You're like a productivity person. You're like, 209 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: obviously I live in trouble. But I've I have like 210 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: been resident to use it. But I think, actually that 211 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:47,839 Speaker 1: might be a really good scision because right now my 212 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: Google docs are getting a little ass control. It's too 213 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: many story ideas. It's like they're all over the place. 214 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: I think, I think, and then start trellowing. And then 215 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: then but then when I'm actually like reporting and taking 216 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: notes and I use the physical notework all work, I 217 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: want to. 218 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 2: Delve into that because a lot of your job involves 219 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 2: interviewing people for stories, and I'd love to know how 220 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 2: do you prepare for an interview? 221 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: Who are the best interviews I do are when I 222 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: know a bit about someone, I know more or less 223 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: the story I'm working on, but I just go in 224 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: really open minded and really sort of blank as blank 225 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: as possible, which sounds weird. But the key for interviewing 226 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: is to ask really dumb questions and to be to 227 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: not try to like outsmart yourself. Like the best answers 228 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: are questions like what do you make of this? You know? So, 229 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: like let's say I just had a confrontational interview yesterday 230 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:50,599 Speaker 1: and for the day before, and the way I like 231 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: ask questions about these controversial things that this person doesn't 232 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,559 Speaker 1: want to talk about. I basically said, like, here's this 233 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: thing that people are saying about your program. Make that 234 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: get to a broad and because if you try to 235 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: get too smart or know too much about a thing 236 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: or like, then you're not gonna get good close the 237 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: dumber the question, the dumber a question about are always 238 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 1: always always. 239 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, what are some examples of, like I guess 240 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 2: so called dumb questions that like you might lately for example, 241 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 2: and the need to be like what. 242 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: Do you want to talk about? Or like a lot 243 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: of what do you make of this? Like what are 244 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: you thinking? 245 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 3: Why? 246 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: What's going on? Is often one a lot like what's 247 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: going on a lot of why? Like if if I'm 248 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: following somewhere around, like I'll ask them to what I'll do. 249 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: I'll say, what are you doing right now? And then 250 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: you say, like listen and I can see what you're doing. 251 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: You can see what you're doing. But like, I'm trying 252 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 1: to paint this for the readers. So if you just 253 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 1: start talking to narrate me through what you're you know, 254 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: and then people will do that. I think journalists a lot, 255 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: myself included, like get too excited about our role and 256 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: it's really important to get out of your own way, 257 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: but not too clever. 258 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 2: How much time would you spend preparing for an interview, like, 259 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 2: for example, I know you wrote that great piece about 260 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: guy rads who I imagine listeners that these podcasts might 261 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 2: know for hosting? How I build this like had like 262 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: what what's the work that goes into like everything that 263 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: happens before you actually meet the person that you're interviewing. 264 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: I find that if I read too much about a person, 265 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: or I just go in with too many biases. Then, 266 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: like I want to go in as open and as 267 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: just listening as possible. And so I was like, obviously 268 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: I listening to this podcast, and I knew the basics 269 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: of the outline, but I tried not to read the 270 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: kind of interviews he'd done before. I didn't want like 271 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: the angles that people had taken on it before to 272 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: be my angle, just because that was what was out 273 00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: there and that was what would get in my head. 274 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: So like I I profile Jordan Peterson, and I wanted 275 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: to just approach him fresh, without all the noise and 276 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: the the stuff of other people. And then afterwards you 277 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: go and you read everything about the person of you, 278 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: and then if you need to do a follow up 279 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: interview whatever addressing this or that thing that you find 280 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: in an interview for five years ago that they did. 281 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: But for an initial thing, I think like the dummer 282 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: you go in, the better. 283 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: I really like that. 284 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: I think canter intuities. I tell you, the times when 285 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: I overthink it are the times when I get it wrong, 286 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: times that I like just get too caught up in 287 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: myself and don't don't listen to a person. Yeah, yeah, 288 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: And that's I'm going to write something surprising is by 289 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: not coming in with the same expectation everyone else did. 290 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: You don't want like other person that is on that 291 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: person in your head too much. Everyone does it differently, 292 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: like so this is this just works for me. And 293 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: it's like for features writing, when you have the opportunity 294 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: to interview someone multiple times and all that, like it's 295 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: a little bit indulgence to sort of. 296 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 2: And I once you've got all all that content, like 297 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 2: let's just say it is a feature on someone or 298 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 2: covering sort of like a topic in depth. What's your 299 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 2: process for creating a first draft of of your article? 300 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I wish there was some like amazing strapss. 301 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: What I always do. I usually it's like a movie story. 302 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: Then I take all my notes, I put them in 303 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: one document. Well I copytaatee that document that I have 304 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: one that's just all my notes forever, and I just 305 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: close that one, and then I have the other one 306 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: that I know I've played with, and I just start 307 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: the leading stuff that doesn't need to be in the story, 308 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: and then usually end up with like a stack of 309 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: quotes in detail. And then from there I literally just 310 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: write for I just start at the top and just 311 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: kind of like lead kind of like make one quote, 312 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: one detail flow to the next one. And that's like 313 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: I said, I sort of like scrape it clean. And 314 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: then the pieces I have left, I kind of like 315 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: sign them together. And how do you clean it? Like 316 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: how how do you know what's worthy of the story 317 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: and what's not? I mean, it's like what's a good 318 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: quote or what's like if I'm like guy Rove, I 319 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: thought it mattered that he had the colorful glasses, like 320 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: and think that's like a detail that stays in, but 321 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: other things don't matter. That one was a profile of 322 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 1: a podcasters, so his voice members a lot. But then 323 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: if I there's best way story, so that's like a 324 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: news story holder. But the best way of a story 325 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: is what I'm trying to do is there, which is 326 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: like you do recording. You have all your notes and 327 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: then you like look at a length sheet and you 328 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: try to just think the story right, like try to 329 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: get like how should this be told and start writing 330 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: it and then pulling quotes and things that you need, 331 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: but like write it kind of like on your emotional center. 332 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: Sounds so cheesy, but so everyone in a while, I 333 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: can do that but not often. Yeah, cool. 334 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: What what do you find is the hottest part. 335 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: Of writing a story? One hard part is attention span. 336 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: You really have to be super flow state focused, like 337 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: very very focused to do it well. And I find 338 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: the order I get and the more I am living 339 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: in technology, then more cluttered my head is and more 340 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: annazing it is, the harder it is for me to 341 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: stay in a flow. And because like if you're writing 342 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: like how I said that the better one where you 343 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: kind of write it in your head as you're just 344 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: going down plank documents, that really requires you to hold 345 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 1: a lot of voices in your head at the same 346 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: time into the just listening to the story. And so 347 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: ifhile you're doing that, you're also like getting texts and 348 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: like a g chat comes through and there's a black 349 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: message like like you screw it, like you can't do it, 350 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: And it's just really hard to get in that place 351 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: for all of us. 352 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 2: So what's your process? Like you mentioned right at the 353 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: stat that you've got a short attention span, and I 354 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 2: mean you're a tech reporter, like you know you have 355 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 2: to be connected to all these channels and know what's 356 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 2: happening with the latest apps, and social media and so forth. 357 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 2: Like how like do you kind of have strategies that 358 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 2: you deliberately use to tune out all those digital distractions 359 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: and stay focused. 360 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: I'm like constantly trying to figure out that a strategies 361 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: for it. I think we all threw ourselves a little 362 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: bit into thinking that we just need to be plugged 363 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: into these things for work or for you know what, 364 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: if someone's they need me, I need to have my 365 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: phone on. People did just find for a long time 366 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: without smartphones, And like, I think even for my work, 367 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: I'm a tech reporter. Yeah, but like, do I really 368 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: need to be that aware of all of the latest news? No? 369 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: I don't. So like I really don't need to be 370 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: plugged into Twitter as much as I am, or plugged 371 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: into you know, reading technique or whatever as much as 372 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: I do. It's so at a certain point you have 373 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: to like be honest with yourself about what you actually need. 374 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: So what are the ways that I'm doing it? I 375 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: I have one of those like screen time things on 376 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: my phone that tells me when I've been using social 377 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: media for more than an hour. I've been really trying 378 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 1: to do this is so moody, but I've been really 379 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: trying to do like a digital sabot. So every Saturday, 380 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: I'm totally unplugging, with like some success. I've so far 381 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: done it oftime, some like successfully like three times and 382 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: then like ninety percent of the way like like like 383 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: seven times. And it's been amazing when if you do 384 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,239 Speaker 1: and like really turn your phone off and like make 385 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: your plans for day before and like meet your friends 386 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: at a point of time, it's incredible. So stuff like that, 387 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to like reclaim my humanity a little 388 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: bit in the device soup that we will. That's great. 389 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: I haven't figured it out at all. I don't think 390 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: anyone really happen. Maybe some people have, but not means yeah, yeah, 391 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: I think it's tough. 392 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 2: I think so many people struggle with it, Like what 393 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 2: what's happening on your computer when you're you're actually writing 394 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 2: a story? Like are you switching off notifications? Are you 395 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 2: using apps that block? 396 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: But what is that I switched off all notifications like Almo, No, 397 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: I don't have any notifications anymore other than text mesloges 398 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: on my phone, and so I'll put my phone in 399 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: an airplane move for sure. I turned on my computer 400 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: and my phone black and white, so they're like a 401 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: little less stimulating, a little common. I and then you know, wait, 402 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: you know, like the really weird thing I do at 403 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: work though, right, what's that? I have a treadmill desk. 404 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: You have a treadmill desk. 405 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: That's you, guys. Happened upon the weirdest your time tech reporter. Yeah. 406 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: I tread all days a lot. Like, let's paid. When 407 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: I'm like on the phone, like, I'll be walking like 408 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: one and a half to two miles an hour, you knowe, 409 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: like two miles an hour. And then when I'm like riding, 410 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 1: I'll go slowers. I'll do like a mile an hour. 411 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what that is, but it's slow. Whoa. 412 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, at the end of the day, I've walked 413 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: like ten miles. Wow, oh my god. I all the time, 414 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: I'm eating constantly on hungry, Like at dinner, I get 415 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 1: like I get like two Honores. Now it's the best part, fantastic. 416 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: I love that. So that's like a lot that helps 417 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: with my like antsy personality too. I'll tell you I 418 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: was treading what night, Jeeve Scott? 419 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 2: And how long have you say I'm treading? 420 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: It looks well, I have been okay. So I started 421 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: standing right after college because I really struggled with my 422 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: first job before I started the Chronicle. I worked in 423 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: a lab like as a study coordinator, and I really 424 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 1: struggled with sitting all day. I didn't know I would. 425 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: It was confusing. I didn't know what was going on, 426 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: but like my body hurt. I was like some trouble 427 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: saying attention. The job didn't work out, not surprisingly, and 428 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 1: when I started the Chronicle, I was sort of like 429 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: I had like change how I do work, and so 430 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: I sacked up my computer on a bunch of books 431 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: and just I did a standard like a really yankye 432 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: standing desk. And then I'd used the standing desk for 433 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: you know whatever the next eight years. And then about 434 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: a year ago, I'd always heard about treadmill desks and 435 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: really wanted one, and I really liked walking. I would 436 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: walk a ton to calm myself down or like to 437 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: just I really liked walking, and I went for it. 438 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. I didn't worry about doing it because 439 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: I thought it was so weird and I didn't want 440 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: to be like the weirdest person in the office. But 441 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: then I was like, you know what, I'm going to 442 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: see me the weirdest person in the office. And I 443 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: asked my editor we if I could get a treadmill desk, 444 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: like you know that I would pay for and I 445 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: would bring and you know, if it was disrupting everyone, 446 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: she could say it and I would take it out 447 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: immediately and all this, and she yes, that's so cool. 448 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: On Saturday night, I brought a said know in to 449 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: The New York Times. Oh, I don't know. That's always 450 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: made for walking, so it's quieter. 451 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so what what brand and model is it? But 452 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 2: those that are listening that are inspired to replicate your strategy, 453 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 2: it's I. 454 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: Think I'm going to get it right. It's a c 455 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: R twelve hundred. It's it's made by the company's lifespan 456 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: and I love it like I cannot. I was nervous 457 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: when I got it because I was like, Okay, I'm 458 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: getting this big piece of equipment I'm bringing into the office. 459 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: People are all going to make fun of me, and 460 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: I'm not making a big personal statement as this newspaper, 461 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: which is like excentricity. My beer was what if I 462 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: don't like it? Like, why if I use it for 463 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: a month? And I'm like oh my god. And then 464 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: I've like downe this whole thing. M hmm, thank god. 465 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: I actually love it. And now if I need to work, 466 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: I'll come into the office, Like if I have to 467 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: work on a Sunday, I'll come into the office downtown. 468 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: So I'd rather I don't really want to. Like the 469 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: idea of sitting and working is like such a I 470 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: don't know, I've gotten spoiled. I've gotten really bratty. Yeah, 471 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: oh wow, you gotta try it. You're gonna love it. 472 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: You gotta start treading it. I'm giggling this machine as 473 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: soon as these interviews are I'm very about that. Anyone 474 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: who asks me about it, I like, you know, I'll 475 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: talk your ear off, but I think it. You know, 476 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 1: humans aren't meant to sit hunched over a glowing computer 477 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: screen all day. It's like the weirdest thing for our 478 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: body to do for ten hours a day. And then 479 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: and then I go home and I'm not bad actors, 480 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: I'm not like an athlete. So I go home and 481 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: I hang out with a friends sitting and having a 482 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: drink or whatever. And then I watch a movie sitting 483 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: and relaxed and whatever. So this way, like like I 484 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 1: don't know. It just feels good. 485 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 2: I mean they say that sitting is the new smoking, 486 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 2: don't they Isn't that the thing? 487 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: You're a nonst I want to be create. This is 488 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: literally like all new physical activities, a hell of a 489 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: lot amusing activity. That's that's very impressive. Oh. 490 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 2: I had a couple more questions and what it like? 491 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 2: What did your go to sources of information for keeping 492 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 2: track on what's happening in. 493 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: The world of tech? 494 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 2: Like do you do you have websites that you go to, 495 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 2: people that you go to? 496 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: What what do you all kind of go to sources 497 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: of information? So straight up tech news. There's nothing better 498 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 1: than tech means like in terms of pulling together everything 499 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: that's out there that day if you want to know 500 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: and then for I think could happen? You sometimes just 501 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: sort of know what the software engineers are up to 502 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: and reading and begin and and I look at I 503 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: don't know when I just read the paper Technium and 504 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: Hacker NEWSI to be busy. I check those every morning. 505 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: And I think tech Crunch does an amazing job of 506 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: what it does, which is like owning a startup space 507 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: that a lot of people have moved on from as 508 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: everyone now is just covering big text and so it 509 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: does becomes really essential readings. Yeah, so those are my three. 510 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: It was a pretty standard it's nothing. And then oh 511 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: I also love that for techery got the chery. 512 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 2: Yeah great, that's that's cool. And and and you like, 513 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 2: are you getting inspiration from like a podcast or age 514 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 2: news letters or or anything like that? 515 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: Nice you saying I have never unless it was for work, 516 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: like for Guy Rawas, or for like like understanding what 517 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: the daily is. I've never listening to the podcasts. I know. 518 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: I don't unless it's like a work specific thing in 519 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: my free time, I don't podcast. I don't know. I'm sorry. 520 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: Are you muting off right now? Yeah, that's right? 521 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 2: And end of chat. 522 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: That's sorry. I think that I realized podcasts are so intimate, 523 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: like it's letting someone into your ears. Like when I, 524 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: like read a news article, there's a certain distance between 525 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: me and the writing, but like a podcast feels so intense. 526 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: That's true, and it's very useful, and I think, yeah, 527 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: desolutely definitely. 528 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 2: And look on that note, my final question, really, if 529 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 2: people want to consume more of what you're doing and 530 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 2: putting out there, how can people find you? 531 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 3: I don't know. 532 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: I gets just on New York Times dot com. I 533 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: have a Twitter. I don't tweet very much, but I 534 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: have a Twitter and so almost stories just going to 535 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: the teck page of the time and it's they're good. 536 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: They make it up to the homepage and you in there. Yeah, awesome, 537 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: I will I'll link to your Twitter as well. In 538 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: the show notes. Let's go, well, Nellie, I'll save you. 539 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 2: And you're hearing about your process of particularly hearing about 540 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 2: the treadmill desk. That's a cracker. 541 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: I love that, so, thank you so much. 542 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 3: It was really friend. 543 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: Just wan you to come on. Thank you so much 544 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: for having me grasp. 545 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 3: Hello there. That is it for today's show. I hope 546 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 3: you enjoyed my chat with Nelly, And if you're maybe 547 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 3: like me, you're probably about to go and google that 548 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 3: treadmill desk that she talked about, which I just think 549 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 3: sounds awesome. Anyway, if you liked today's episode, please share 550 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 3: it with other people on social media or maybe just 551 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 3: a couple of friends or workmates that could benefit from it. 552 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 3: And if you're enjoying how I work, I would love 553 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 3: it if you could give us a review in Apple 554 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 3: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts from, it actually 555 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 3: helps more people find the show when there are more reviews. 556 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 3: Funnily enough, so that is it for today and I 557 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 3: will see you next time.