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Speaker 1: Today's episode is another my Favorite Tip episode where I

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Speaker 1: go back to interviews from the past and I dig

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Speaker 1: out the thing that was my favorite tip, like the

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Speaker 1: thing that I got out of the interview that really

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Speaker 1: impacted or resonated with me. Today's extract is from my

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Speaker 1: chat with Michelle Andrews and Zara McDonald. Michelle and Zara

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Speaker 1: are Melbourne based journalists and broadcasters who are only twenty

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Speaker 1: six years of age at the time of this recording.

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Speaker 1: They met working as writers for Mom and mea and

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Speaker 1: in March twenty eighteen launched Australia's top pop culture podcast, Shameless,

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Speaker 1: which they say is for smart women who like dumb stuff.

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Speaker 1: They now run Shameless Media and other producers of three

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Speaker 1: other highly popular podcasts Now if you haven't come across Shameless.

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Speaker 1: It has been downloaded over ten million times and was

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Speaker 1: crowned Australia's most Popular Podcast of twenty nineteen at the

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Speaker 1: Australian Podcast Awards. Michelle and Zara and their podcast have

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Speaker 1: been written about in The New York Times, The Guardian,

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Speaker 1: The Age and Murray Claire and their latest book Because

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Speaker 1: who knows how they had time to write a book,

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Speaker 1: but they did, is called the Space in Between. I

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Speaker 1: was very excited to speak to Michelle and Zara, and

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Speaker 1: in this extract from my chat, we talk about their

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Speaker 1: process for making really tough business decisions and talk specifically

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Speaker 1: about a very tough business decision that they had to make.

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Speaker 1: So let's head on over to Michelle and Zara.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, we spend a whole bunch of time on

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Speaker 2: social media, and it has always been that way since

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Speaker 2: we launched the podcast, because we know social media is

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Speaker 2: the main way that we connect with our audience and

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Speaker 2: our listeners, and so to have that relationship with them,

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Speaker 2: which we value so much, we have to be present.

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Speaker 2: It was a huge decision for Zara and I to

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Speaker 2: actually delete our Facebook group to archive it in It

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Speaker 2: might have been end of May, or it might have

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Speaker 2: been beginning of June this year. That was a group

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Speaker 2: that was kind of like the heartland for a time

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Speaker 2: of Shameless, that had more than forty thousand listeners in there.

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Speaker 2: It was energized and chaotic and fun and a little

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Speaker 2: bit mad sometimes, and we loved it. We really truly

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Speaker 2: did love it. But it got to the point where

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Speaker 2: we were two women trying to police forty thousand women

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Speaker 2: and that was not doable. And of course we might

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Speaker 2: be asleep for seven hours a night, but a Facebook

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Speaker 2: group with people from all over the world never sleeps.

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Speaker 2: And it got to the point where we were so

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Speaker 2: burnt out and we were so at a loss as

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Speaker 2: to how to keep this Facebook group running that we

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Speaker 2: just decided. We turned to each other and said, we're

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Speaker 2: so burnt out, we're exhausted, and it's not doable. It's

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Speaker 2: not doable to have this Facebook group anymore. And I

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Speaker 2: think getting rid of that Facebook group, although it hurt

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Speaker 2: at the time and it was upsetting for the community,

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Speaker 2: it was the absolute best things are and I could

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Speaker 2: have done for our sanity and for our mental health

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Speaker 2: and our work life balance.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we were really struggling, not just with the Facebook group,

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Speaker 3: but we were also struggling with the decision to close it.

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Speaker 3: Like we just we also couldn't keep people safe anymore

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Speaker 3: inside it. And I know that might sound like a

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Speaker 3: strange thing to say, but when you've got really political

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Speaker 3: conversations happening at all hours of the day, we don't

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Speaker 3: have the power to moderate that at all hours of

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Speaker 3: the day to the level that we want to, and

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Speaker 3: so giving up and kind of effectively deleting what is

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Speaker 3: a huge arm of your business is like an incredibly

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Speaker 3: difficult decision because it was, as Miss said, it was

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Speaker 3: the heartland of Shameless and it was kind of our

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Speaker 3: entire community coming together. But as she also said, it

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Speaker 3: was the best thing that we did, and we kind

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Speaker 3: of put all our energy into other forms of social media,

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Speaker 3: and we kind of channeled our energy. And I think

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Speaker 3: if my advice was to anyone, it would be work

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Speaker 3: out kind of the things that are burning you out,

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Speaker 3: because for us, the Facebook group was burning us out,

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Speaker 3: and we suddenly had all this extra energy to pour

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Speaker 3: into really productive forms of social media that could actually

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Speaker 3: grow our business. And for so long we were just

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Speaker 3: juggling so many things that we kind of couldn't we

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Speaker 3: couldn't see that, we didn't have that clarity to say,

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Speaker 3: we will have far more energy and kind of far

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Speaker 3: better ideas if we delete this thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it gave us like a zest for the

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Speaker 2: podcast back, I think because we had time to relax

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Speaker 2: and time to switch off. And I know it sounds hyperbolic,

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Speaker 2: but I truly don't think Cazara and I had the

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Speaker 2: ability to switch off for a year like the Facebook

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Speaker 2: group was the busiest on a Sunday, particularly a Sunday night,

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Speaker 2: so we had to be in there and watching it

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Speaker 2: like hawks in case someone said something offensive or someone

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Speaker 2: upset someone else. And yeah, I think now that we've

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Speaker 2: moved to a model where we focus a lot more

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Speaker 2: on Instagram and other forms of social media to be

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Speaker 2: really transparent about it. Yeah, we spent a lot of

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Speaker 2: time on them. But we're also twenty six year olds

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Speaker 2: who love social media anyway, so there is a part

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Speaker 2: of it to us that does not feel like work.

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Speaker 2: Like some of it's literally just finding funny memes or

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Speaker 2: creating funny content that we can share with people, and

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Speaker 2: we get a lot of joy out of that.

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Speaker 1: That decision about the Facebook group I find fascinating. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember what went into making such a huge and

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Speaker 1: important decision?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean I think it was something that

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Speaker 3: we floated three months before we did it, And I

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Speaker 3: remember I was talking to Mish on the phone and

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Speaker 3: we had kind of come into some issues again. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I just I have these vivid memories of being like

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Speaker 3: of a Tuesday evening, sitting in front of Netflix, trying

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Speaker 3: to watch a series and realizing that my phone wasn't

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Speaker 3: next to me, and if my phone was next to me,

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Speaker 3: then I couldn't see what was happening in the Facebook group.

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Speaker 3: And if I couldn't see what was happening in the

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Speaker 3: Facebook group, then things could be going wild. And we

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Speaker 3: were having this conversation about how we were constantly very

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Speaker 3: wired and very stressed, and I remember she said, have

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Speaker 3: you ever thought about getting rid of it? And I thought, no,

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Speaker 3: I didn't know that this was on the cards. I didn't.

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Speaker 3: I didn't think that this was an option. And we

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Speaker 3: said let's just sit with it, like, let's not do

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Speaker 3: anything rash. Let's sit with it for about three months

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Speaker 3: and see how we go. And we spoke to a

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Speaker 3: lot of people very close to us, and I spoke

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Speaker 3: to kind of my sister, and I even mentioned it

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Speaker 3: to my parents and my friends, and I was like,

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Speaker 3: what do you think of this? And they were like

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Speaker 3: the minute we even floated it as an idea, They're like,

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Speaker 3: that's exactly what you need to do. That is exactly

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Speaker 3: what you need to do. But we sat on it

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Speaker 3: for such a long time to make sure it was

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Speaker 3: the right call, because I think once you do something

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Speaker 3: like that, you can't really go back.

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Speaker 1: Definitely, do you remember what that felt like hitting the

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Speaker 1: delete button?

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Speaker 2: It was quite freeing, to be honest, the day that

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Speaker 2: we archived the group, I actually got my head done

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Speaker 2: that morning. I remember walking into the hairdresser and she

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Speaker 2: looked at me and said, you just look like you're

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Speaker 2: carrying the weight of your world, the weight of the

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Speaker 2: world on your shoulders, And I'm like, it feels so ridiculous,

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Speaker 2: Like we're talking about a Facebook group, and if you

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Speaker 2: tell the average person that, they're like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: get over it. But it truly was something we stressed about,

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Speaker 2: Like we would get messages about this group at two

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Speaker 2: am in the morning on a Tuesday or eleven pm

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Speaker 2: on a Friday night, So it was something that consumed us.

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Speaker 2: By the end, it was just incredibly freeing, and I

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Speaker 2: think my love of work came back almost instantaneously that

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Speaker 2: I felt so much freer to I guess, switch off

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Speaker 2: but then also create again, because I create the best

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Speaker 2: content when I'm not actively trying to come up with ideas.

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Speaker 2: Ideas come to me when I when I switch off

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Speaker 2: and I spend time with my boyfriend or go for

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Speaker 2: a walk or what have you. So it was the

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Speaker 2: best decision we could have made, not just for our

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Speaker 2: listeners and keeping them safe, but for ourselves in I guess,

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Speaker 2: keeping that flame of passion for what we do lit.

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Speaker 1: I find that so inspiring. Listening to what you guys

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Speaker 1: did with the Facebook group, I think it takes like

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Speaker 1: a lot of guts. I mean, that's a really significant

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Speaker 1: size group to do that, and just hearing what happened

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Speaker 1: as a result of that, it reminds me of one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite books that I've read around this area.

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Speaker 1: I guess, of you know, making decisions and how do

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Speaker 1: you work out your priorities? Is this book called Essentialism

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Speaker 1: by Greg mceuw And I think I've pronounced his surname correctly,

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Speaker 1: And it's all about like, how do you work out

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Speaker 1: just what are the essential things that are going to

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Speaker 1: create the most value and bring you the most joy

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Speaker 1: in what you're doing.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think it's that idea of value. I really

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Speaker 3: really do, because your mind can get quite muddied when

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Speaker 3: you're across a million different things all the time. And

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Speaker 3: for a long time there it was just Michelle and

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Speaker 3: I running a business, running social media, doing podcasts, making

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Speaker 3: podcasts for other people. We were writing a book all

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Speaker 3: at the same time. We were doing this, and we

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Speaker 3: nearly ruined our physical and mental health all at the

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Speaker 3: same time, and we weren't giving people the best value.

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Speaker 3: Like I remember certain days we'd sit in front of

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Speaker 3: the mics ready to record. It might be a Sunday morning,

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Speaker 3: and we were just like, how have we got to

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Speaker 3: a point where the best and most kind of important

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Speaker 3: part of our business, which is this record right now,

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Speaker 3: is kind of the thing that's getting the least energy

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Speaker 3: because we're so exhausted. And I think for us, just

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Speaker 3: as what you said, it's about what value are we

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Speaker 3: giving the listeners. We can't kind of reduce the quality

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Speaker 3: of this episode. This episode is the most important thing,

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Speaker 3: so we're going to have to kind of get rid

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Speaker 3: of some other stuff to make sure that this remains

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Speaker 3: the priority and it gets the energy it deserves.

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Speaker 2: I think as well, when you get to the point

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Speaker 2: that you have employees and you have people relying on you,

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Speaker 2: and we work with a lot of freelancers and a

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Speaker 2: lot of contractors, you have to have the difficult conversation

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Speaker 2: with yourself that what is worth my time and what

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Speaker 2: should I be investing my time into. Because people are

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Speaker 2: relying on me like I rely on Zara, she relies

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Speaker 2: on me. People rely on us. We can't continue to

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Speaker 2: have these illogical priorities anymore, and we had to kind

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Speaker 2: of invest in ourselves and make sure that we were

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Speaker 2: okay before anything else. And yeah, it was just it

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Speaker 2: was a very clarifying month. Actually, once we decided that

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Speaker 2: we were going to do it and we were working

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Speaker 2: on the messaging of how to close the group, it

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Speaker 2: was very clarifying. And to look back now, I can't

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Speaker 2: believe the way we were living and the way we

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Speaker 2: were working, because it wasn't good for anyone.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious as to how doing that has changed your

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Speaker 1: approach to evaluating how many projects you are taking on

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Speaker 1: at the one time.

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Speaker 3: I think we'd actually started reviewing our priorities before that,

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Speaker 3: and that's probably why we kind of landed in that

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Speaker 3: conversation to start with. At the start of last year.

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Speaker 3: So at the start of twenty nine ten, when I

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Speaker 3: had quit my job and Michelle and I were working

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Speaker 3: on Shameless full time, we had a lot of opportunities

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Speaker 3: come to us and we said yes to every single one,

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Speaker 3: and by about June, we were producing four or five

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Speaker 3: podcast episodes a week to one for a podcast called

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Speaker 3: Shoes on the Money that we produced the first season.

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Speaker 3: For another was a bespoke podcast for Love, etc. We

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Speaker 3: were writing our book and running our social media channels

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Speaker 3: and we looked at each other and we said, like,

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Speaker 3: why did we do this to ourselves? But I think

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Speaker 3: if we went back eighteen months, we'd probably do the

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Speaker 3: same thing again, because you just want to say yes

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Speaker 3: to everything. Right now, I still feel like, and I'd

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Speaker 3: love to say if Mischi graz and me, I still

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Speaker 3: feel like we have a tendency just a tiny part

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Speaker 3: of us doing that, Like the most natural instinct is

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Speaker 3: for us to be like yes, yes, yes, yes yes,

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Speaker 3: and we have to actively pull ourselves back. But I

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Speaker 3: think having deleted the Facebook group and understanding that the

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Speaker 3: shameless Monday Thursday episodes are our absolute priority has influenced

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Speaker 3: now how we make decisions a little bit, because we

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Speaker 3: always come back to that tea that is, is this

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Speaker 3: going to impact the quality of Monday and Thursday? And

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Speaker 3: if this is going to impact the quality and our

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Speaker 3: energy levels and our time management, then we're not going

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Speaker 3: to do it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I think I must be the least woo

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Speaker 2: woo person in the world. And yet I think the

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Speaker 2: universe has had our back on a couple of occasions,

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Speaker 2: because even after that horrific June period where we were

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Speaker 2: so burnt out and so overworked last year, we then

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Speaker 2: in the following months proceeded to say yes to a

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Speaker 2: whole bunch of opportunities that at the time were like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: well this will be great, like let's do this, and

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Speaker 2: if they had eventuated, we would have been in such

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Speaker 2: a heap, like we would have been at our absolute

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Speaker 2: lowest ebb if that at all eventuated, because we would

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Speaker 2: have just been run off our feet. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what's happened. We've been very, very lucky and that things

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Speaker 2: we've kind of leaped towards and be like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: what an incredible opportunity, let's do it. They fell through,

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Speaker 2: And now that I look back, I'm like, thank God

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Speaker 2: those things didn't happen. Otherwise I don't even know how

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Speaker 2: it'd be function right now. And I think having those

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Speaker 2: near misses has been very important for us, because now

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Speaker 2: Zara and I are very clear on what we think

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Speaker 2: is worth our energy and what we want to align with.

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Speaker 2: And I think the shameless brand is something that is

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Speaker 2: trusted by young women. That's something that we take incredibly seriously,

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Speaker 2: and we also know that media brands can lose that

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Speaker 2: trust so quickly. I think it's been something that has

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Speaker 2: kind of torched part of the media industry here in

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Speaker 2: Australia that there's not a huge amount of trust in

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Speaker 2: journalists or in particular publications. So Zara and I now

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Speaker 2: are very particular about what we want to do, and

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Speaker 2: we already have a lot of work on our plate

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Speaker 2: and we have an incredible team around us getting that

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Speaker 2: work done. But to kind of bite off anything more,

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Speaker 2: it has to make sense, and I think we've kind

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Speaker 2: of come up with this vernacular to be like is

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Speaker 2: it us? Like is it shameless? Because if it's not

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Speaker 2: shameless and it doesn't make sense, then we're not going

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Speaker 2: to touch it.

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Speaker 1: That is it for today's show. If you want to

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Speaker 1: listen to the full episode, I link to that in

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Speaker 1: the show notes, so you might want to check that out.

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Speaker 1: And if you are enjoying how I work, I would

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Speaker 1: be so deeply grateful if you just take five seconds

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Speaker 1: out of your date to leave a review in Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: it might be a star rating. Or a few words,

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Speaker 1: and by doing so, it helps other people find the

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Speaker 1: show and it also brings a huge smile to my face.

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Speaker 1: So thank you to the hundreds of people that have

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Speaker 1: left reviews. It is so deeply appreciated. So that is

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Speaker 1: it for today's show and I will see you next time.