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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. Now.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson for the Happy Families

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Speaker 2: summer series. We've got an interview from the Bringing Up

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Speaker 2: Boys summer. Just a couple of months back, I spoke

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Speaker 2: with Brad Marshall, soon to be doctor Brad Marshall. He's

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Speaker 2: just finishing up his PhD at the moment. He's known

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Speaker 2: as the Unplugged Psychologist. If you have any screen issues,

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Speaker 2: especially when it comes to boys and screens, but kids

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Speaker 2: and screens generally, Brad has a host of great resources available.

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Speaker 2: Check him out The Unplugged Psychologist online. During the Bringing

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Speaker 2: Up Boys summer, I asked Brad, when should a parent

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Speaker 2: be worried about their child's screen time?

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, I think I think the point you

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Speaker 1: make about, you know, games in the eighties and nineties,

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Speaker 1: because I get asked that quite a lot by parents.

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Speaker 1: You know, so many parents say, well, I gained when

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Speaker 1: I was young. There's nothing wrong with me. I turned

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Speaker 1: out just fine. Games are different to how they were

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Speaker 1: then for many different reasons. Okay, so the game design

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Speaker 1: is very different to what it was back then. But

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Speaker 1: also one key point here before I move on to

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Speaker 1: the second part of your question, is is that the

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Speaker 1: fact that games are connected to the internet now.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So in the eighties and nineties, I would play Mario

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Speaker 1: Kart or Seegannegga Drive or you know, NFL ninety two

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Speaker 1: and all these things with my brother. But I had

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Speaker 1: to play with my brother all my mates to have

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Speaker 1: a social connection. We get in the pool, we'd eat pizza,

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Speaker 1: we do stuff in between. Right. It's different today. And

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons, one of the many reasons is

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Speaker 1: because the Internet connects kids. Quite often, parents at home

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Speaker 1: will say, well, my child won't leave the room, their bedroom,

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Speaker 1: wherever they are, and I say, go and see your mates,

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Speaker 1: and they go, I am seema mates. Look, I mean

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Speaker 1: they're online. Here's Jimmy, here's Mikey. Right, And so what

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Speaker 1: we miss then is all of that stuff in between,

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Speaker 1: the pizza, the pool, party, all the rest of it, right,

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Speaker 1: and even some of it might have been getting in

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Speaker 1: a bit of trouble, But there's all that other stuff

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Speaker 1: in between. And that's what's different fundamentally about games from

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Speaker 1: the eighties nineties versus games today. But the second party,

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Speaker 1: your question with what are the warning signs for parents? Look,

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Speaker 1: I can go through a whole bunch of diagnostic stuff

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Speaker 1: and it's really going to bore parents. So if I

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Speaker 1: just break it down into some hopefully some easier language

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Speaker 1: that won't bore them and put them to sleep, what

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Speaker 1: I look at in my clinic is developmental domains, and

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Speaker 1: so what I mean by that is social development, education, behavior, health.

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Speaker 1: Health is not technically a developmental domain, but I mean sleep, exercise, hygiene,

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Speaker 1: eating that sort of stuff, and emotional development. So there

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Speaker 1: are these five main areas that I'm looking for, and

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Speaker 1: you know, my book The Tech Diety Your Child and

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Speaker 1: Team goes into this in really big detail. But on

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Speaker 1: the macro level, if you look at something like health,

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Speaker 1: if it starts impacting on your child's sleep, and what

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Speaker 1: I mean by that is if they're staying up late,

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Speaker 1: if they're getting up in the middle of the night

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Speaker 1: to grab a device while everyone else is asleep, if

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Speaker 1: they're getting up early, if your kids are waking up

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Speaker 1: at five point thirty six am to get on before

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Speaker 1: Mum and Dad get up, that is impacting one of

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Speaker 1: those developmental domains. Now, is it going to go catastrophically wrong.

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Speaker 1: You know, within a week, no, probably not, but as

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Speaker 1: you start to see time go by, whether it's weeks, months,

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Speaker 1: a year, you know, the more they impact on those

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Speaker 1: developmental domains, the worse it's going to get. So it

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Speaker 1: dominos is what I call it. So if you impact

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Speaker 1: the child's sleep, then they're tied for school and they're

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Speaker 1: going to be a bit strappy. They're going to forget

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Speaker 1: their homework. Then they come home and they might lash

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Speaker 1: out when you ask them to do something simple. Right,

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Speaker 1: So I guess you're looking for all the warning signs

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Speaker 1: in all of those different areas for parents. So one

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Speaker 1: of the big ones is the on the education domain.

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Speaker 1: Is that idea of it usually starts off with kids

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Speaker 1: putting in very little effort with their homework. Now you

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Speaker 1: could argue that for many teenage boys that's normal, but

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Speaker 1: I guess then it graduates to not getting work done,

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Speaker 1: not handing in assessments, and then even at the most

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Speaker 1: you know, the highest level, it's school refusal, which is

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Speaker 1: just a fancy term for not going to school so

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Speaker 1: they can stay home and game. So there's a bit

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Speaker 1: of a step ladder there, and those are the warning

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Speaker 1: signs along the way for those ones.

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Speaker 2: In a few minutes, I'd like to move into how

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Speaker 2: parents might effectively respond to their sons if they are

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Speaker 2: gaming and started to refuse to go to school, or

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Speaker 2: they're doing other things that we would consider concerning. Right,

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Speaker 2: But first off, let's just step back a little bit

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Speaker 2: and highlight we're going to loosely use the term addiction, because,

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Speaker 2: like you said, that's what parents say. So as you've

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Speaker 2: done your research, I've certainly got a number of reasons

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Speaker 2: why I think it's happening, and I might chime into

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Speaker 2: the conversation as we go, But what do you see

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Speaker 2: as the main draw cards, the main reasons that our

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Speaker 2: boys are being and it's different for girls just aren't

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Speaker 2: drawn in in the same way that boys are. So

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Speaker 2: this is a two part question. I know that's a

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Speaker 2: terrible interview process. I shouldn't do that, But two parts

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Speaker 2: to this Number one, why are boys so drawn into

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Speaker 2: games and screams? And why are girls not? I mean,

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Speaker 2: girls are still drawn into screens, but for different reasons

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Speaker 2: and in different ways as a general average rule, So

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Speaker 2: why is it happening and why the difference?

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Speaker 1: Let me start with why the difference first, I'll flip

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Speaker 1: it here a little bit. We don't know, if I'm

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Speaker 1: really honest, the differences in the gender, because yes, I

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Speaker 1: suppose clinically anecdotally, I can tell you that certainly there

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Speaker 1: are more boys that are impacted by games and girls

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Speaker 1: certainly seem to get stuck a little bit more on

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Speaker 1: social media and that sort of stuff. Here, Why more boys,

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Speaker 1: We don't know. What I can say is that a

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Speaker 1: lot of the data that comes out will tell you that,

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Speaker 1: you know, gaming is a fifty to fifty thing between genders,

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Speaker 1: that it's boys and go else. What I would warn

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Speaker 1: parents about is when you're reading data like that, just

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Speaker 1: be careful because quite often that is actually sponsored by

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Speaker 1: the gaming industry, right, it is in their interest to

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Speaker 1: sort of had this idea that it's a fifty to

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Speaker 1: fifty split.

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Speaker 2: You what page do you see in the clinic of

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Speaker 2: girls versus boys?

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't think it's probably a good description in

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Speaker 1: the clinic because me being a male chilt psychologist as well,

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Speaker 1: I think there is a tendency for parents to assume

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Speaker 1: that I would be better with boys, and you know,

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Speaker 1: a female would be better with girls, which I don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily agree with but anyway, so I don't think that

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Speaker 1: split is there. But I guess if you just look

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Speaker 1: at some of the Australian prevalence studies that are done independently,

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Speaker 1: you are looking at a slightly higher rate of boys gaming.

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Speaker 1: And whether some studies put that at sixty or seventy percent, right,

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Speaker 1: I think, though, to come back to your first question

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Speaker 1: about why are kids or boys getting getting stuck or

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Speaker 1: addicted to gaming, there are some core principles that games use.

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Speaker 1: And I could go on all day about this, right,

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Speaker 1: but if I just pull out some of the big ones,

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Speaker 1: So games these days are much better at some of

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Speaker 1: these psychological underpinning. So if you take one of them,

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Speaker 1: called the near miss effect, and so that's the idea

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Speaker 1: that you can get so close to the end and

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Speaker 1: you feel like you're going to win and then you

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Speaker 1: fall just short. And so if you take some of

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Speaker 1: the most common games Fortnite or see Us Go or Minecraft,

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Speaker 1: you know, the game algorithm will let anyone get right

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Speaker 1: to the end feeling like they're going to win and

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Speaker 1: then they fall just short. Now that is a principle

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Speaker 1: that they have borrowed from gambling. So poke machines will

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Speaker 1: quite often do this, right, you get a king, king king,

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Speaker 1: Oh it's a queen. I was so close. And so

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Speaker 1: the neat thing about that from a game developer's perspective

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Speaker 1: is it actually gives you this sense of dopamine. The

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Speaker 1: lights go off, the music goes off, you feel like

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Speaker 1: you've won. And that's when your boys at home saying

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Speaker 1: to Mum and dad, oh, but I'm so close. I

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Speaker 1: just need to go again, or hey, you said you

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Speaker 1: going to get off after that game, but he doesn't.

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Speaker 1: He presses go again, and so they've lost, but they

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Speaker 1: really feel like they've won. So that's just one of

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Speaker 1: many psychological underpinnings. And the other big one I kind

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Speaker 1: of touched on before is this social connection. So what

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Speaker 1: we do know is that if you look at studies

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Speaker 1: with functional MRI machines, what we can tell is that

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Speaker 1: gaming that is offline gives you a small amount of

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Speaker 1: dope mean to the brain. Remember dopamine being that feel

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Speaker 1: good chemical, right, But gaming that is online gives you

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Speaker 1: much more doper mean to the brain. And that's a

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Speaker 1: very key point here because I guess what I'm saying

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Speaker 1: is and this is one of the reasons we term

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Speaker 1: it Internet addiction is that it is the connection and

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter whether you're playing some guy from the United

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Speaker 1: States that you've never met before or your best mate

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Speaker 1: from school. It doesn't matter. It's social and parents will

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Speaker 1: know if they've seen their kids on discord and all

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Speaker 1: these sorts of things as well. They just amps up

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Speaker 1: the social aspect of it, and so there's a bigger

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Speaker 1: but dopamine hit in that than when you and I

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Speaker 1: were playing just versus a computer.

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Speaker 2: So I want to add to this conversation, and I'm

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Speaker 2: really happy for you to either agree with me or

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Speaker 2: shout me down, because I think you're the expert in

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Speaker 2: this area. I talk to a lot of families on

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Speaker 2: the parenting side of it, but the screen aspect of it,

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Speaker 2: which is what your clinic is all about. I've read

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Speaker 2: and studied lots and lots in this, but you're dealing

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Speaker 2: with it every single day, whereas it's a different approach

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Speaker 2: for me. But I reckon there's a couple of other things.

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Speaker 2: So you were talking about those persuasive design elements that

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Speaker 2: keep you in like the near miss, and as I

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Speaker 2: think about that, I thought of two others as you

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Speaker 2: were speaking, but just jumped out at me immediately. The

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Speaker 2: first one is the ease of restarting. You literally you're

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Speaker 2: out of the game and all you've got to do

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Speaker 2: is push one button and you're straight back in. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's no barriers to re entry. It's just this seamless,

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Speaker 2: frictionless and straight back in.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of them give you timers too, right,

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Speaker 1: next game starts in thirty seconds. If you jump in,

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Speaker 1: your spot's gone, your mates are all in, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, Or you miss out on all the points

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Speaker 2: that you've accrued or the box that you're collecting loot in,

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Speaker 2: or whatever it might be. So you miss out on

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Speaker 2: these rewards and you actually, I mean I didn't think

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Speaker 2: of that, but you get rewarded for staying in longer, right, correct.

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Speaker 2: And the other thing that really stands out to me,

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Speaker 2: and it's just such a simple element, is that all

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Speaker 2: of the games that are available on line track is

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Speaker 2: to play. There's no clock.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're not monitoring the time. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: pretty similar to what casinos do, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just don't let anyone know how time is passing

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Speaker 2: by and what's happening. So I was thinking about those

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Speaker 2: persuasive design elements, but then I thought about bringing it

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Speaker 2: back a little further, and when we talk about the

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Speaker 2: psychology of it, you talked about the relatedness, but two

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Speaker 2: other things stood out to me that idea of the

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Speaker 2: nim miss. What that does is it taps into a

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Speaker 2: basic psychological need that's been starting for decades called the

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Speaker 2: need for competence. And what it actually does is it

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Speaker 2: gives kids a fall sense of competence. They feel like

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Speaker 2: they're actually much more capable than perhaps they are, because

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Speaker 2: the game is designed to make them feel that way.

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Speaker 2: And competence is a basic psychological need. It feels good.

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Speaker 2: And if I'm competent or so close to being competent,

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Speaker 2: that is immensely satisfying to me. So I just I

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Speaker 2: want to demonstrate my competence and continue to build my competence.

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Speaker 2: And in the online world you get to do that

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Speaker 2: in a way that you can't in the offline world,

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Speaker 2: like to develop a real skill offline, maybe to go

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Speaker 2: down to the local BMX track and learn how to jump. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's hard and it often hurts as well.

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Speaker 1: Well. And so, and what you're alluding to here is

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Speaker 1: one of the other key I guess psychological underpinnings, and

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Speaker 1: that is this idea of flow, and so game designs

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Speaker 1: a bill so that let me give you an example here.

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Speaker 1: If a parent at home jumps on one of their kids'

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Speaker 1: games as a guest, right, as a new guest profile,

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Speaker 1: you're probably going to get a lot better weapons, a

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Speaker 1: lot better armor, a lot better everything that you're doing there, right,

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Speaker 1: and your trying to go, what are you doing You're

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Speaker 1: getting so lucky? Well, no, not really, I mean most

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Speaker 1: of it is the algorithm because it's trying to encourage

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Speaker 1: you to play. It can recognize that you are a

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Speaker 1: new player, and if they just made it impossible for

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Speaker 1: you to play, this concept of flow means that if

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Speaker 1: it's too difficult, you'll just get anxious and stressed and

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Speaker 1: you'll give up. And so you know, the concept of

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Speaker 1: flow is quite often associated with the distortion of time.

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Speaker 1: So parents at home that go, I told you, Jimmy,

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Speaker 1: you only had twenty minutes left. I've only been twenty minutes. No,

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Speaker 1: you've been an hour and a half. Right, Your child

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Speaker 1: is probably being pretty genuine, right. They get stuck in

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Speaker 1: this idea of flow, and the game is designed that way,

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Speaker 1: that's what it's supposed to do. And so you lose

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Speaker 1: track of time. So you know, there are so many

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Speaker 1: more of these psychological nd opinions, right. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: a whole industry that is based on making this stuff

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Speaker 1: what they call sticky. You know, that's the term that's used.

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Speaker 2: In the industry that is soon to be doctor Brad Marshall,

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Speaker 2: the Unplugged Psychologists from the Bringing Up Boys Summit. You

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Speaker 2: can find more of the Bringing Up Boys Summit online

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Speaker 2: at Happy Families dot com dot AU. Just search it

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Speaker 2: in Google Bringing Up Boys Summit, Happy Families and you'll

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Speaker 2: find all the info you need. You can actually download

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Speaker 2: the whole thing and get loads. I think there's there's ten,

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Speaker 2: maybe eleven fabulous, fabulous conversations that I've had with world

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Speaker 2: leading experts about all the issues related to Bringing Up

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Speaker 2: Boys Happy families dot Com. Do you hey. That's it

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Speaker 2: for today. I'll see you again tomorrow with Kylie as

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Speaker 2: we continue the Happy Families podcast summer series.