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Speaker 1: Okay, Myles Flecks to start today's podcast. I get sent

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Speaker 1: books all the time. Publishers want me to interview authors

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Speaker 1: put them on the podcast, and a lot of them

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Speaker 1: are parenting books. There's diminishing returns for me as a

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Speaker 1: parenting expert. I'm just not that excited about reading parenting

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Speaker 1: books because I find that generally they don't add a

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Speaker 1: whole lot to the stuff that I do. I am

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Speaker 1: good at what I do. I know what I'm talking about,

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Speaker 1: and usually I just pick holes in people's parenting books

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Speaker 1: because they're not what people really need. The stuff that

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Speaker 1: I've written about is what people need. Long way of saying,

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Speaker 1: I got sent a book a little while ago and

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Speaker 1: I was just like, oh, here we go, another parenting book.

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Speaker 1: And the title of the book made me feel even

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Speaker 1: less inclined. Honestly, I'm like, mumming, I'm a dad. We're

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Speaker 1: a really professional podcast. It's all about science and research,

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Speaker 1: and clearly this is a memoir A year of trying

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Speaker 1: and failing to be a better parent by Victoria Vanstone.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, I've heard that name. And I checked

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Speaker 1: out the bio. I was like, hmm, hang on, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've heard of this podcast so Awkward, and there's something

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Speaker 1: about Victoria Vanstone where I'm like, you know what, I

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Speaker 1: had to catch an aeroplane. I'll take the book with me.

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Speaker 1: I'll read a chapter or two. If it's okay, I'll

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Speaker 1: keep reading it. Otherwise I'm checking into the bin like

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Speaker 1: I unfortunately do with so many other books.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't put it down. I laughed my head off.

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Speaker 1: I just got so much joy from reading, and reading

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Speaker 1: is about joy, right, Like so many times we read

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Speaker 1: a book because we've got to get to the end

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Speaker 1: of it. But this was a book that literally brought

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Speaker 1: me joy. I laughed, I actually did cry. I literally

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Speaker 1: got weepy a couple of times. And by the time

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Speaker 1: I'd finished it, I contacted my assistant and said, you

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Speaker 1: got to book this podcast interview in I have got

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Speaker 1: to talk to Victoria van Stone. Could I Welcome to

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Speaker 1: a Happy Family's podcast, Real Pairing Solutions, every day on

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Speaker 1: Australia's most downloaded pairing podcast. My name is doctor Justin Colson,

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Speaker 1: the book snob obviously, and today I'm joined by Victoria Vanstone,

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Speaker 1: a comedy writer host of the award winning podcast Sober Awkward.

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Speaker 2: Originally from reading in the UK.

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Speaker 1: She now lives about ten k's from me on the

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Speaker 1: Sunny Coast with her annoyingly nice husband, who she continually

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Speaker 1: refers to as port John, the Dog, Sandy, and three

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Speaker 1: as she describes them, sticky, loud but occasionally delightful children.

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Speaker 1: Her book is called Mumming, A Year of Trying and

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Speaker 1: failing to be a bit of parent. I could continue

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Speaker 1: with the bio, there's so much, but I think I

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Speaker 1: should just introduce you to one of the most delightful

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Speaker 1: authors that I've ever had the privilege of talking to.

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Speaker 1: I know it sounds like a backhanded compliment, Victoria, but

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Speaker 1: I loved your book.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to have to kind of send this straight

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Speaker 3: to my mum afterwards, because what an intro that was.

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Speaker 4: I feel very flattered. Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Justin Yeah, you can be like my pet in my

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Speaker 3: pocket all the time. Every time I'm feeling a bit down,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to bring you out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just save this podcast in your favorites and just

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Speaker 1: play the intro every time. I'm not one of those

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Speaker 1: people who likes it when I hear a podcast interview

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Speaker 1: and someone starts reading a person's words back to them

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Speaker 1: out of their book like that. Feels almost like lazy conversation,

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Speaker 1: and yet I'm finding myself compelled to do it. I

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Speaker 1: got to page nine and I read this, and this

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Speaker 1: is kind of where you This is kind of where

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Speaker 1: you got me. You start off by saying, deep inside me,

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Speaker 1: somewhere is the mother. I wanted to be the one

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Speaker 1: that Nils holds shoulders, looks her child in the eyes,

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Speaker 1: and says softly, now, Fred, we're on the same team.

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Speaker 1: We can figure this out together. Let's go on a

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Speaker 1: treasure hunt. Find you mysterious lust shoe. I know she's there,

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Speaker 1: but like the shoe, I can't find her. She's been

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Speaker 1: replaced with a cheaper, a worn out substitute, a cheaper version.

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Speaker 1: And then I know this a long quote, but it

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Speaker 1: literally had me. This is that Tom Cruise bit, the

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Speaker 1: whole you had me at hello. This is the bit

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Speaker 1: that got me. It wasn't meant to be like this, mumming.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I thought I'd love every moment, be patient, kind,

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Speaker 1: and spend my days reorganizing bedrooms and ining name tags

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Speaker 1: onto school shirts. I wanted to be one of those

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Speaker 1: mums who hums jolly tunes as she throws wooden toys

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Speaker 1: into wicker baskets, sews up holes in socks, and wears

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Speaker 1: flouncy dresses with worn out maternity nickers beneath. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to know the best chewy chocolate chip cookie recipe off

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Speaker 1: by heart and wear oven gloves. But as the years

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Speaker 1: of tick by, I get the feeling that woman isn't

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Speaker 1: going to show up. What has emerged from the depths

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Speaker 1: of motherhood as a grumpy troll who throws plastic cups

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Speaker 1: at walls.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean, where is she that woman? Even

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Speaker 3: you reading that back to me, I'm like, where is

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Speaker 3: that woman? When the hell is she going to show up?

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Speaker 3: Because she certainly isn't here. A little bit of her

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Speaker 3: appears every now and again, and I'm like, oh, there

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Speaker 3: she is, But then she disappears after another round of

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Speaker 3: lost socks and spaghetti on the ceiling and that sort

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Speaker 3: of thing. So yeah, I'm still trying to find her.

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Speaker 3: But I think she's arriving occasionally in my life, which

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Speaker 3: is nice. It's nice to meet her sometimes.

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Speaker 1: And the idea is that you wanted to show up

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Speaker 1: more often. But look, the research around this is really vexing,

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Speaker 1: and we talk about a lot on the podcast. In fact,

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Speaker 1: just a few weeks ago, we did an episode on this.

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Speaker 1: Since the nineteen seventies nineteen and eighties, research into parenting

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Speaker 1: and happiness shows that as the kids come along, your

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Speaker 1: happiness declines, and the more kids you have and the

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Speaker 1: older they get, the more unhappy you become, until they

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Speaker 1: become teenagers, where your happiness it's rock bottom, and then

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Speaker 1: when they move out of home you start to feel

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Speaker 1: happy again. The number one symptom of emptiness parenting is

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Speaker 1: non stop smiling.

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Speaker 4: So it makes total sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and yet there's.

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Speaker 1: So much meaning, there's so much delight, there's so much

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Speaker 1: heart that goes into it, and we say parenting makes

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Speaker 1: us happy, and in some very real and tangible ways,

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Speaker 1: it does, even though the science doesn't pick it up.

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Speaker 1: Let's go through your parenting statistics. How old are your

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Speaker 1: kids at the moment, and how do you deal with

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Speaker 1: the fact that you're not the mom that you hoped

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Speaker 1: you'd be.

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Speaker 3: I think, well, my kids are six, nine and thirteen,

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Speaker 3: so I'm still in the trenches as it were. I

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Speaker 3: was a traveler and a bit of a nomad before

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Speaker 3: I had children, and I imagined that my children would

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Speaker 3: slot into my life. I never imagined that they would

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Speaker 3: have their own personalities or characters. I thought I would

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Speaker 3: mold them into the people that I wanted them to be,

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Speaker 3: and not have all these interesting intrinsic character traits that

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Speaker 3: I did not even see coming. So it's been a

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Speaker 3: bit of a shock for me motherhood. I think that's

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Speaker 3: more of the point. And also I find that we're

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Speaker 3: living in a world where imperfection isn't accepted, and I've

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Speaker 3: found that embracing my imperfections whilst writing and whilst being

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Speaker 3: a mum has actually kind of been my superpower as

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Speaker 3: I've gone along and learned who I am as a mother,

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Speaker 3: because I do think it kind of takes some training

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Speaker 3: to work out who I want to be and who

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Speaker 3: I actually am. And I think there was a point

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Speaker 3: very early in the book where I was shouting too much,

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Speaker 3: and it's a trait that's carried on throughout my family. No,

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Speaker 3: my mum shouted at me, and now I shout at

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Speaker 3: my children. I hear my mum's voice ricocheting around my house,

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Speaker 3: and I realized that I didn't want to be that person.

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Speaker 3: So this book is about that journey, about me trying

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Speaker 3: to become the mum I thought I wanted to be,

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Speaker 3: but actually it was so interesting writing it because I

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Speaker 3: was trying to do better, But the point kind of

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Speaker 3: got lost along the way because I didn't really get

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Speaker 3: that much better.

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Speaker 4: But that was okay.

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Speaker 1: Writing does something, the processing that's required, the level of

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Speaker 1: thinking that's required.

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Speaker 2: It's different to speaking right.

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Speaker 1: You can be a little bit loose, you can be

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Speaker 1: a bit glib, you can say things and people get

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Speaker 1: what you're saying even though you're not actually saying it

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Speaker 1: quite clearly. But when you have to write, it demands

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Speaker 1: a level of discipline and thinking that is completely different.

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Speaker 1: And what you've done in this book is articulated precisely

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Speaker 1: that start off with a parenting course, committed for the

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Speaker 1: next twelve months that I'm going to be a better parent,

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Speaker 1: And then you kind of get to the end and

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Speaker 1: you say, I don't know if I'm that much better.

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Speaker 1: For what it's worth, I'm reading the book and I

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Speaker 1: think you are. I think you are immeasurably better. I

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Speaker 1: think there's no question about it. But you're sort of going,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if I'm better, but I know that

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Speaker 1: now I'm more intentional, I'm more connected to my kids,

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Speaker 1: there's something else that has happened. Is that a fair

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Speaker 1: response to what you're describing as a lack of evolution.

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Speaker 1: I think there actually has been absolutely.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it took me to write down and see

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Speaker 3: it in black and white to understand that I wasn't

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Speaker 3: as bad as I thought, and I realized there was

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Speaker 3: this backbone of unconditional love when I was growing up.

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Speaker 4: There's a scene in the beginning of the book where

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Speaker 4: my parents leave me by the side of the road

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Speaker 4: as a child.

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Speaker 1: I was going to read that to you today instead,

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Speaker 1: but I went for the whole mumming thing. But my goodness,

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Speaker 1: they just they left you on the side of the road.

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Speaker 1: They've filled up the car and driven off, and they

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Speaker 1: don't they literally don't realize that you're on in the

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Speaker 1: car and exactly.

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Speaker 3: And I stood by the side of that road with

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Speaker 3: my sister with a feeling of that my parents were

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Speaker 3: coming back.

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Speaker 4: I never ever questioned.

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Speaker 3: I knew it was a mistake, and that was the

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Speaker 3: unconditional love that was the scaffold of my life and

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Speaker 3: is what I bring to my children. I stood there

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Speaker 3: strong by that road, knowing that my parents were going

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Speaker 3: to pull up at any minute, come out of the

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Speaker 3: car and grab us and take us on our holiday.

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Speaker 3: And at the beginning of the book, I say, this

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Speaker 3: isn't a book about perfect parenting. It's a book about

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Speaker 3: always coming back. So sometimes I'm not perfect parents very often,

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Speaker 3: and I don't think all of us mums are. We

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Speaker 3: live in this world of comparison where we're supposed to

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Speaker 3: be perfect all the time, but it's not perfect. And

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Speaker 3: when I'm at mother's groups and things, the stories that

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Speaker 3: I hear, you know, I went to the shops and

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Speaker 3: left the baby, you know, I left the baby in

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Speaker 3: the house and had to drive back down the road.

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Speaker 3: The humor and the reality of parenting is very, very

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Speaker 3: different than the expectation. And it was such a joy

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Speaker 3: to write this book and go, look who am I

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Speaker 3: as a mum and who am I going to become?

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Speaker 3: And what I learned was that I was enough in

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Speaker 3: the first place, and that unconditional love that I felt

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Speaker 3: while I stood by that road as a little kid

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Speaker 3: is still existing in my world today. And even if

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Speaker 3: I do get things wrong, my kids have something to

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Speaker 3: fall back on, and that is that scaffolding, that unconditional

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Speaker 3: love that I try to bring into everything, even if

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Speaker 3: I do occasionally throw plastic cups at walls.

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Speaker 1: So you're very very funny. You're quite a reverent. I'm

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Speaker 1: a non course language person. You don't mind a bit

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Speaker 1: of a swear. And as I'm reading the book, I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of going, this is really confronting, but my goodness,

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Speaker 1: there's so much heart. I just love it so much.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to read anything else to you after this.

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Speaker 1: This is the last thing I'll read to you, I promise.

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Speaker 1: But this, just this is a sense for people who

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Speaker 1: are listening to chat and going I wonder if I like,

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Speaker 1: where is this really going? Every page is punctuated with

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Speaker 1: joy and humor and delight. I just laughed so much.

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Speaker 1: Until I was eleven, I thought girls got pregnant. I

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Speaker 1: should just quickly menagine content warning. If you've got the

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Speaker 1: kids in the car, the next thirty seconds could be

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Speaker 1: a little bit of an issue, but other than that,

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Speaker 1: will be very very polite. Until I was eleven, I

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Speaker 1: thought girls got pregnant by letting a boy put his

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Speaker 1: tongue in their mouth, that an orgasm was something that

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Speaker 1: lived in a rock pool, and that the blowjob was

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Speaker 1: when you had your hair done at Carol's on High Street.

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Speaker 3: It's actually, I mean, it's funny because it's true all

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Speaker 3: of my stories.

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Speaker 4: Unfortunately, people said I don't believe it. I can't believe it.

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Speaker 4: I was like, I couldn't make this quite honestly.

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Speaker 1: You are ridiculously But in the book, as much as

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Speaker 1: it's funny, like we've already covered, there's a lot of heart.

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Speaker 1: But something happens during this year of trying to month perfectly.

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Speaker 1: That is just every parent's greatest nightmare. You have a

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Speaker 1: near death experience. Walk us through that and talk about

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Speaker 1: how that left you feeling.

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Speaker 3: We were on a campa van holiday to Perth and

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Speaker 3: I've how did my son a chupper chup? And I thought,

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Speaker 3: I'm not really sure whether I should be doing this.

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Speaker 3: He was kind of you know, four or five, and

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Speaker 3: it was like, I'm handing it over. But there's a

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Speaker 3: stage race or thing. Well should they be allowed this?

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Speaker 3: It's a bit choky. Anyway, we took off in the

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Speaker 3: campavan and I heard the noise that any mother you know,

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Speaker 3: or father would hate to hear at any point throughout

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Speaker 3: their lives.

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Speaker 4: And it was my you know, my son unable to

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Speaker 4: get air.

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Speaker 3: And I turned around and we tried to revive him,

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Speaker 3: and he was going blue, like it's your worst choking nightmare.

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Speaker 3: You know. There's a reason we cut grapes in half,

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Speaker 3: because all parents are pretty paranoid about a choking situation.

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Speaker 4: So my worst fears were playing out in front of me.

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Speaker 3: I had to run out into a road, I had

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Speaker 3: to shout for help, you know, and get an ambulance there.

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Speaker 3: And it was just one of the most well, it

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Speaker 3: was the most terrifying experiences. And in that moment, you

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Speaker 3: know how they say life slows down and you see

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Speaker 3: your life flash in front of you, I just thought, gosh,

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Speaker 3: I'm now becoming the mother who lost her child. That's

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Speaker 3: who I'm going to be now. And within this kind

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Speaker 3: of chaotic moment, there was a slow thought in my

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Speaker 3: head was this is who I am becoming. And it

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Speaker 3: was so frightening. Luckily, my son Fred survived that day.

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Speaker 3: The one of a builder run out of a building

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Speaker 3: site and stuck his fingers down my son's throat and

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Speaker 3: saved his life somehow. We're not really sure how it

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Speaker 3: happened and how he managed to revive my little boy,

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Speaker 3: but I feared afterwards that one of my children would

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Speaker 3: die at any moment. It shows the fragility of life

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Speaker 3: very clearly to me. One minute we're okay and having

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Speaker 3: the holiday of our lives, and the next minute we're

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Speaker 3: in a life.

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Speaker 4: Or death situation.

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Speaker 3: And that kind of shook my ground beneath me because

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh, well, well, everyone's okay and we

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Speaker 3: all survive, and aren't we a strong and lovely family

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Speaker 3: to the point where, oh gosh, this could change at

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Speaker 3: any moment and everything could fall apart. And it left

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Speaker 3: me feeling very very anxious, very concerned about the health

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Speaker 3: of my children, feeling like someone was going to die

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Speaker 3: at any moment, and actually I had to go and

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Speaker 3: have some therapy and to understand the reasons I'd got

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Speaker 3: completely overwrought with anxiety and panic that one of my

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Speaker 3: children was going to pass away at any minute.

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Speaker 1: The vulnerability is enormous, and I mean, it reminds me

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, I was surfing and caught

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Speaker 1: a wave, went headfirst into a sandbank. The wave just

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Speaker 1: absolutely drilled me, and I fractured my neck and my

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Speaker 1: back in the same area and had it sort of

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Speaker 1: carried out of the water and the ambos took me

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Speaker 1: off the hospital and that kind of thing. And it's

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Speaker 1: that fragility, like you said that, that vulnerability when you

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Speaker 1: look at it.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of things that stood out to me.

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Speaker 1: Number One, you were willing to say I'm not doing well,

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Speaker 1: so you went and participated in a therapeutic approach to

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Speaker 1: help you to work through it. Do you feel like

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Speaker 1: you ever really get over that? Is it always sort

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Speaker 1: of there in the back of mind, or at some

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Speaker 1: point you just learned to function again.

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Speaker 3: I think that's one hundred percent right. Yeah, you've hit

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Speaker 3: the nail on the head. I mean I am over

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Speaker 3: that situation. I did get help to understand that that

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Speaker 3: is something that can happen in life. And when you

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Speaker 3: have children, what you also create is risk. And you

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Speaker 3: love people that much, you also create a fear of

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Speaker 3: anything happening to them.

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Speaker 4: That is parenthood in a nutshell, Really, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Actually, now that you say it, we mentioned this in

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Speaker 1: the pot I can't believe it skipped my mind. But

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Speaker 1: while I was reading the book and reading about that

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Speaker 1: and now just thinking about you saying this. About the

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Speaker 1: same time that all this was happening, my daughter fell

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Speaker 1: off a horse and the horse ran across her face

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Speaker 1: and yeah, like fractured her eye socket. And that was

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Speaker 1: maybe eight or ten weeks ago now and she's fine,

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Speaker 1: she's recovering. There's been all kinds of medical interventions and

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Speaker 1: things that were required, and you do you get that

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Speaker 1: sense of everything and change in an instant with the

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Speaker 1: smallest thing, your trip, stepping off the curb and you

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Speaker 1: fall and there's a bus coming like this sort of

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Speaker 1: stuff can can happen so fragile. What are your greatest

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Speaker 1: learnings when you look at this near death experience? I

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Speaker 1: mean your son literally you were watching him die in

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Speaker 1: front of your eyes. What are your biggest learnings from this?

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Speaker 3: I mean it is learning that my love means risking loss.

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Speaker 3: I think I think that is part of having children.

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Speaker 3: And I never realized that before I had children. I thought, well,

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Speaker 3: you have them and they grow up and you teach

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Speaker 3: them and you hope for a good life, and you

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Speaker 3: you know, teach them to be good or bad, and

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Speaker 3: you know what's right and wrong.

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Speaker 4: And then there's some things you can't control.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's what it's taught me, is that

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Speaker 3: I can't control everything, and there's points where you have

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Speaker 3: to try and let them go a little bit, and

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Speaker 3: you have to stretch that umbilical cord much further than

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Speaker 3: you wish too. And that is really confronting and happens

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Speaker 3: in different stages throughout parenting. For me, it's happening now

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Speaker 3: because I've got a thirteen year old son who wants

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Speaker 3: to go to the plaza on his own, and they're

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Speaker 3: always I'm always being stretched and tested as a mum,

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Speaker 3: and it's me trying to learn how to accept those

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Speaker 3: stretches and step into them without fear, which for me

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Speaker 3: sometimes takes some therapy. I'm going to be one hundred

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Speaker 3: percent honest with you. I have to reach out for help.

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Speaker 3: This has happened. You know, I fall apart occasionally in

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Speaker 3: my life because you know, there's a lot of chaos,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot going on. I was a binge drinker

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Speaker 3: for twenty five years. Any time I fall apart like

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Speaker 3: I did with my drinking, I reach out for help.

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Speaker 3: And that is something that I recommend to anybody. Don't

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Speaker 3: ever suffer with anything on your own. And I had

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Speaker 3: to learn how to live with risk and the risk

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Speaker 3: that I might lose my children at any moment, which

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Speaker 3: sounds like something we just should just push away and think,

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Speaker 3: let's not think about it, it will never happen. But

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Speaker 3: I was so confronted with it, it was so real

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Speaker 3: that I had to go right, this is something that

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Speaker 3: is part of my life now, and I have to

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Speaker 3: deal with it, and I have to learn to live

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Speaker 3: with it in a way that's not going to make

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Speaker 3: me a paranoid crazy woman.

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Speaker 4: And so that's what I do.

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Speaker 3: I live with the fact that love contains risk, and

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Speaker 3: it is heartwarming and heartbreaking all in the same breath,

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Speaker 3: which I find parenting.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's a life affirming and soul destroying.

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Speaker 3: I think, I write in the book in one moment,

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Speaker 3: one minute, I'm crying in a pillow, and the next

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Speaker 3: we're running down a sand dune towards the ocean, and

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Speaker 3: it can.

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Speaker 4: Be that between two minutes.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's the kind of absurdity and the

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Speaker 3: joys and the risks and the love all mixed up

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Speaker 3: in this crazy kind of world that we live in

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Speaker 3: as parents, Especially when you've got three kids like me.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of learning that the chaos is okay. And

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Speaker 3: that's what I try to embrace now, is that it

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Speaker 3: might not.

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Speaker 4: Be great all the time.

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Speaker 3: It might be awful sometimes, but there are moments where

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Speaker 3: it is beautiful.

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Speaker 1: Her book is called Mumming, A Year of trying and

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Speaker 1: failing to be a bit of parent. You're an award

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Speaker 1: winning podcast host, You're a writer. Essentially, you spend your

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Speaker 1: day in front of a computer. You're a content producer,

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Speaker 1: a content creator. It's one of those things that's really

402
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Speaker 1: hard to switch off. It's one of those things that

403
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Speaker 1: requires you to always be scanning your environment, finding content,

404
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Speaker 1: jotting things down, making notes, looking for ways that you can.

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Speaker 2: Recraft what you've built.

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Speaker 1: Your daughter comes to you one day and says, and

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Speaker 1: I quote, mummy, do you love your laptop more than me?

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Speaker 4: This has probably been one of my biggest lessons in

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Speaker 4: the book.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's various things that happen, go wrong and

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Speaker 3: go right, but this was one moment where I realized

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Speaker 3: I was working more than parenting, and I was putting

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Speaker 3: my children after my work. And because you know, success

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Speaker 3: has come at a very odd time for me. I

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Speaker 3: have never really had a proper job. I was traveling

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Speaker 3: the world. I sold jewelry on the market, so I

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Speaker 3: was kind of this traveling no mad with a backpack

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Speaker 3: and no care apart from where my passport was going

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Speaker 3: to next, So I never really had any stability. And

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Speaker 3: then I found a career only seven years ago when

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Speaker 3: I gave up drinking and started writing and podcasting. And

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Speaker 3: so it's come at an odd time for me where

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Speaker 3: I've got three children and I'm trying to be successful

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Speaker 3: at the same time, and it can be really hard

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Speaker 3: for mums, you know, trying to combine the work, the chores,

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Speaker 3: making sure everyone's happy, making sure everyone's fed, and it's

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Speaker 3: like I'm balancing all these plates. They're all spinning around

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Speaker 3: and occasionally they smash on the floor. So for me,

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Speaker 3: I actually ended up going to a breath work I

430
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Speaker 3: went a bit woo woo in part of the book

431
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Speaker 3: and went to a breath work course which opened up

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Speaker 3: this side of my brain which I never even knew existed.

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Speaker 4: I am a bit woo wo.

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Speaker 3: I didn't even know it was in me, quite honestly,

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Speaker 3: and it really made it clear that I was prioritizing

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00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:51,160
Speaker 3: my work over my children.

437
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,720
Speaker 4: And so I have a funny, kind of peculiar.

438
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,720
Speaker 3: Characteristic whereas if I feel like I'm doing something wrong,

439
00:19:57,800 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 3: I seek the answers to make it right.

440
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,040
Speaker 4: That's exactly what I did here.

441
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 3: And I did it with my own self esteem when

442
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 3: I felt like I wasn't happy with my body image,

443
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 3: and I do it with all sorts of things whereas

444
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:10,920
Speaker 3: I go, Okay, this doesn't feel right.

445
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 4: As a parent, I.

446
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,200
Speaker 3: Don't feel like I'm parenting in the way that I expected.

447
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 3: So therefore, I'm going to find an alternative way that's

448
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:19,400
Speaker 3: going to give me some answers.

449
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:21,720
Speaker 4: And that's what I do in every aspect in my life.

450
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 3: I knew at that point that my daughter needed me

451
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 3: to play with her, and I was like, right, and

452
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:27,920
Speaker 3: I made some rules that day that I was going

453
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,080
Speaker 3: to turn off my laptop before they got home from school,

454
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,760
Speaker 3: turn it on after, you know, And I created a

455
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,480
Speaker 3: kind of pattern where my children wouldn't feel the loss

456
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,600
Speaker 3: of me, do you know what I mean. It's like

457
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 3: they wouldn't feel that I was not there for them, because,

458
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 3: you know, part of my giving up drinking as well

459
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 3: is that I'm trying to be more more present and

460
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 3: more available for my children and not preoccupied with with

461
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 3: you know, wine or what's happening outside of my household.

462
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 3: So when I'm in those moments with my children and

463
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 3: I could see with her little glowing eyes looking at

464
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 3: me saying, Mommy, I want to play with you. I

465
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,679
Speaker 3: knew I had to change, and so I seek the

466
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 3: answers to make those changes.

467
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,640
Speaker 1: Your story reminds me of something that happened early in

468
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,480
Speaker 1: our family. I wrote my first book, which let me

469
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,399
Speaker 1: give a shameless plug for my book called What Your

470
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 1: Child Needs from You. I wrote it years and years

471
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 1: and years ago, and when my wife Kylie was reviewing

472
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,720
Speaker 1: chapter one to make sure that she was okay with

473
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:24,879
Speaker 1: the stories that I was sharing and where the book

474
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,120
Speaker 1: was going, she came across a list of statements. This

475
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,359
Speaker 1: is a questionnaire for parents to consider. My parents support me.

476
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 1: My parents can saw me when I'm upset. My parents

477
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 1: show they care about me. My parents show a genuine

478
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 1: interest in me. My parents remember things that are important

479
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 1: to me. My parents are available to talk at any time.

480
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 1: My parents ask questions in a caring manner, and so on.

481
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 1: And as we talked about those questions, she said, you

482
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:49,639
Speaker 1: know what we need to do. We need to do

483
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: a parenting performance appraisal. And so we sat down with

484
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 1: the kids one on one. I played with them in

485
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 1: the living room. Kylie sat with them one on one

486
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: in the dining room, and she went through and she

487
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 1: took notes as they answered these questions, and some of

488
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,120
Speaker 1: the things that they said were just beautiful and delightful matters,

489
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 1: feel like we were great parents, and other things that

490
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 1: they said, we're a bit like you, hearing mummy, do

491
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 1: you love the laptop more than me? I remember a

492
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 1: distinct quote from our third daughter Ella. She said, when

493
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,119
Speaker 1: dad's busy on the computer, or you when you're doing craft.

494
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 1: When Kylie does craft, it just overtakes the entire house,

495
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 1: right the dining room table, the kitchen bench, the living room,

496
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,160
Speaker 1: like you can't find your way.

497
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 2: Through the house. It's bedlam shed.

498
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,959
Speaker 1: When Dad's on the computer or when you're doing craft,

499
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,360
Speaker 1: it feels like, and this was a direct quote from

500
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 1: a seven year old girl, it feels like you're not

501
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 1: emotionally available to me.

502
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And we just went, Wow, what are we

503
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 2: doing here?

504
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 1: I read that line and it all just came back

505
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: to me. I thought, hmmm, they really they really require

506
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,120
Speaker 1: our presence, don't they. They just so bad and they

507
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,159
Speaker 1: do they measure their worth based on the amount of

508
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 1: connection they're feeling seen and heard and valued.

509
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's taken me a long time to learn that.

510
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,919
Speaker 3: I hate to admit it. I realized that my you know,

511
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 3: so I was excited about, you know, having a successful

512
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 3: podcast and actually being you know, putting some energy into

513
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 3: something that I thoroughly enjoyed for the first time in

514
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 3: my life, and writing and people reading it and you know,

515
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 3: that sort of praise and someone going, you are good enough,

516
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 3: all of a sudden from me not really knowing myself

517
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 3: or having an identity in this world, because I was

518
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 3: just this kind of crazy party animal, and suddenly to

519
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 3: have you know, these people saying, oh, yeah, you're a

520
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 3: good podcaster and you're like an amazing writer, and it

521
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 3: felt amazing, and that kind of overtook for a moment,

522
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 3: it overtook my brain. It was very easy to latch

523
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 3: onto the compliments of others because it made me feel good,

524
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 3: and I was like, and that started to prioritize and

525
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 3: I realized now that I was basing my own self

526
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 3: worth on the opinions of others, which is very very

527
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 3: risky ground to be standing on, honestly, very shaky. And

528
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 3: so I'm getting better at that now. I'm not perfect

529
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 3: at it either. I'm never ever going to claim perfection

530
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 3: in anything, as you can probably tell. But I'm trying

531
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 3: really hard to make sure that I am available and

532
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 3: I have time for my children, and that my distractions

533
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 3: are in my own time.

534
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: Victoria, speaking about being emotionally available, there may be no

535
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 1: better way to be emotionally available than to go camping.

536
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 3: Tell me about camping, Ah, do you want the best

537
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 3: parenting hack of all time? Am I going to give

538
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,959
Speaker 3: it away on the podcast?

539
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 1: I don't know if you should actually share it because

540
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 1: what you did in this was part genius and just

541
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: part a diabolical. As I have to I have to say,

542
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 1: i'd judge you for a minute. I cannot believe that

543
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: you do it, And at the same time, I'm going, yeah,

544
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 1: makes sense completely.

545
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 2: It's up to you whether you share it or not.

546
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: But before you do it, I will highlight that when

547
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: I take my kids camping, I make sure that we

548
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: go somewherehere I don't have to cook, So I'm not

549
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: going to cook on a campfire stove or anything like that.

550
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: We're going to go camping and I am going to

551
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: order pizza or I'm going to go and get some

552
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: pasta or some fish and chips down the road. Wherever

553
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: we go, there has to be food accessible, because I

554
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,959
Speaker 1: refuse to deal with all the rubbish that goes along

555
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: with trying to cook and clean up the mess that

556
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: happens with camping cooking.

557
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 2: It's just too hard. Anyway, tell me about you and

558
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 2: camping now that I'm well, there's a.

559
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 4: Lot of things I don't like about it.

560
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 3: I mean, camping in England was a little bit more

561
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 3: straightforward because there weren't snakes and wombats and all sorts

562
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 3: of horrible creatures wandering around at night.

563
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 4: And yeah, I just find it hard work.

564
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 3: I want to sort of pretend that I like fishing

565
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,479
Speaker 3: shirts and I'm happy to go camping, but I don't,

566
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 3: so I have I'm going to share my hack with you.

567
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 3: I go camping with my children, and there's a rule

568
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 3: that we camp within a five kilometer radius of the house.

569
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 3: The children don't really know about this because you can

570
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 3: actually just drive around for a couple of hours. They

571
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 3: wouldn't really know where we are, so they might think

572
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 3: they were really far away. That's another just drive around

573
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 3: in circles and actually just go down the road and

574
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 3: I get there.

575
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 4: We have a lovely time.

576
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 3: I spend the whole time shouting car because I'm.

577
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 4: Worried that one of them is going to get run over.

578
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 3: They all disappeared into places where I've never been, with

579
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 3: people I've never met before, which is.

580
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 4: Also quite anxiety inducing. But what I do is I cook.

581
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 3: I'm very there, I'm very focused, I'm very good mummy,

582
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 3: and then I zip them into their little sleeping bags,

583
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 3: and as soon as their eyes closed, I steal the

584
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 3: kha keys out of my husband's shorts and I wheelspin

585
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 3: at five kilometers per hour out of the camp site

586
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: and I go home. I have a bath, I put

587
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 3: on a good Netflix cults heeries usually, so I'm quite into.

588
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 3: And I sleep at home and I get up. I

589
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 3: set an alarm for five o'clock. I get back to

590
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 3: the campsite before they wake up, and they don't even

591
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 3: know I've been gone. There is no way that I'm

592
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 3: going to sleep on one of those blow up mattresses

593
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 3: with sand in it where I kind of shoot into

594
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 3: the air when.

595
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 4: My husband gets into bed. I just can't do it.

596
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 3: And they all know that it's a good thing, because

597
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 3: if I've slept well, I'm a nice mummy, and most

598
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 3: mummies out there and Daddy's will know that if you

599
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 3: haven't slept at all, that weekend is going to be

600
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 3: a total right off anyway, because I'm going to be

601
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 3: like that grumpy ogre stomping around on my dusty camping

602
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 3: spot being just like a nightmare.

603
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 4: So yeah, I sneak off and I.

604
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 3: Sleep at home and nobody knows about it, and everyone

605
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 3: is much better off.

606
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 1: I still can't work out whether this is genius or appalling,

607
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: but I love it genius.

608
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 4: I really love genius.

609
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 3: It's about the hacks I think parenting. If you can

610
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 3: find a few hacks and kind of jump through some loopholes,

611
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 3: then I'm all up for it. I'm basically like the

612
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 3: anti parenting expert. I'm not going to tell you what

613
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 3: to do. I'm not going to tell you to read

614
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 3: books or make you feel guilty. I'm actually going to

615
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 3: say to you, jump through the hoops and leave the

616
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 3: campsite without anyone knowing, and find the loopholes.

617
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 4: It makes life a lot easier. There's no guilt or shame.

618
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: Then, Okay, so you're a self confessed non parenting expert.

619
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 1: You've written a book about umming. It really truly is

620
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: delightful I'm going to spin this around for just a minute.

621
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: I've been interviewing you. Let's say that you're interviewing me.

622
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: If there was one question that you could ask a

623
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: parenting expert, what would you ask?

624
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 4: Gosh, that is such a good question. I think I

625
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 4: would ask.

626
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 3: So if I read a parenting book and it was

627
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 3: telling me how to do something and I was failing

628
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 3: at it. For example, if my sleep routine wasn't working out,

629
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 3: and I bought a book about kids sleep routines and

630
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 3: still I couldn't achieve what the book was telling me

631
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 3: to do. What am I supposed to do? How am

632
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 3: I supposed to feel?

633
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: That's a horrible question. That's such a hard question.

634
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: I have a joke sometimes when if I give a

635
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,239
Speaker 1: presentation at the end of the night, I'll say, hey,

636
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,360
Speaker 1: my books are at the back. I can't promise you

637
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: that reading this book is going to make you a

638
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: better parent, but I know if you buy it, you

639
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: definitely will be a better parent. Like to me, that's

640
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: my big, big joke. You didn't even laugh, You didn't

641
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: even smile that. I thought that was really really funny.

642
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: Tough crowd. Clearly, I'm not the comedian in this conversation. Sorry,

643
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: So here's my standard response. Actually there's a two part response.

644
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: First off, when it comes to buying books about getting

645
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: kids onto a sleeping routine, I'm generally against it. I

646
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: don't think that those books are particularly helpful or healthy.

647
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 4: Okay, interesting, but that's.

648
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: Another story and I could upset a lot of people

649
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: by saying that. So let's just focus on the main

650
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: thing that I will talk to parents about. When you

651
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: hear genuinely good parenting advice, scientifically evidence based, the sort

652
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: of stuff that I would share in my books in

653
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: in my seminars. There's a point that I make, and

654
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: it's this, If you want to go and learn how

655
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: to speak Spanish because you're going to go on a

656
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: holiday to Mexico or Spain or wherever, how many mistakes

657
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: do you need to make before you become fluent? And

658
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: the answer will usually be somewhere around a million. Or

659
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: if you want to learn how to play great music

660
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: on the piano or the drums or the violin of

661
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: the guitar, how many mistakes will you need to make

662
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: before you become adept, before you become fluent, before you

663
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: become really competent. And again the answer has to be

664
00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: somewhere around a million. I mean, I'm making up the number,

665
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: but whatever it is, it's an enormous amount of mistakes

666
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: before you become proficient and good at it. And I think, honestly,

667
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: parenting is one of those things where we need to

668
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: engage in deliberate practice.

669
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: You can't just read a book and say, okay, well,

670
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 2: now I'm going to be better. You might get some.

671
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: General reminders about being available to your kids, or listening better,

672
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: or summarizing their feelings when they're having a hard time,

673
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: and that will in some way make you a better parent.

674
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,479
Speaker 1: But fundamentally, if you want to truly get better at anything,

675
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: you have to you have to practice it. You have

676
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: to make mistakes, and then you have to intentionally process it.

677
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: And again, I guess that brings me full circle to

678
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: you and your book about mumming a year of trying

679
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: and failing to be a better parent. The fact that

680
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: you sat down and were intentional and processed it and

681
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: wrote about it it has to have made you a

682
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: better parent. You jokingly say, no, I didn't really get

683
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 1: any better at parenting in that year, but when I

684
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: read the book, I can't believe that you didn't become

685
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: more attuned to your kids, more aware of your own

686
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: foibles and errors so that you can start to proactively

687
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: guard against them.

688
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 4: I just think it's yeah, I totally agree with you.

689
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 3: I think it's about awareness, and I think just having

690
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 3: awareness of my failures and my successes has enabled me

691
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 3: to look beyond them almost and to understand that, you know,

692
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 3: having lots of information, whether I agree with it or

693
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 3: whether it works or not, is a good way to

694
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 3: deal with any situation, isn't it. Whether you read the

695
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 3: books and take it in and use those techniques, it

696
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 3: doesn't really matter. But having the information, absorbing all of

697
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 3: the information possible. I mean, it's the same with sobriety.

698
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: I get a lot of people coming to me asking

699
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 3: questions about how do I stop drinking?

700
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 4: How do I get sober? You know? And I say, well,

701
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 4: there's a varied amount of tools.

702
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 3: You know, you can go to therapy, you can go

703
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 3: to AA, you can, you know, go to rehab.

704
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 4: There's all these different things.

705
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 3: And at the end of the day, I hate that saying,

706
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 3: but it's about whatever works. And for me, it took

707
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 3: a lot of things in my parenting to work out

708
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 3: what works for me, one of them was writing a book.

709
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 4: But it was the same with my sobriety.

710
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 3: I had to walk lots of walks and talk lots

711
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 3: of different talks to be able to understand what works

712
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 3: for me. And that can be the wrong psychiatrist for

713
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 3: the first year of your sobriety and then you have

714
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 3: to find someone else and you have to pivot and adjust.

715
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 3: And it's the same with parenting.

716
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 4: You know. I read all the books, and a lot of.

717
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 3: The books made me feel really guilty, and that, you know,

718
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 3: that paper plane of guilt is something that is glided

719
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 3: along next to me throughout my parenting because of the

720
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 3: high expectations we have in this modern culture. And I

721
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 3: think learning and just using these tools, like your amazing tools,

722
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 3: and using it as information is going to be something

723
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 3: that is just going to help you. And whether you

724
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 3: put it into practice or you fail at it, it's

725
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 3: still just really good information, isn't it.

726
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: Victoria.

727
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that question and your insights around it

728
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: and the opportunity to share that my answer really is

729
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: just practice.

730
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 2: But let's go back to you and wrap this up.

731
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: I love the book Mumming, your first book, though I

732
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: want to talk about that for just a second, and

733
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: the reason for it is as follows. Neither Kylie nor

734
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: I drink alcohol. Where we're non drinkers, we're completely what's

735
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: the word teetotal is and basically always have been. And

736
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: so every now and again we get podcast requests where

737
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: somebody says, could you just talk about mummy wine time?

738
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: Could you talk about beer a clock? Could you talk.

739
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: About parents reliance on alcohol?

740
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: And we really have wanted to have that conversation, but

741
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: we are not the right people for that discussion. You,

742
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: on the other hand, host a podcast called Sober Awkward.

743
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: You're really upfront about your extended sobriety and your effective

744
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: decisions in overcoming alcohol. And your first memoir. I mean

745
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: you're a memoir rest right Is that a word memoirrist?

746
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 4: Nothing is?

747
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: Yes, I think even if it's not, it works. Your

748
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: first book was a memoir. The second one is as well,

749
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: but your first one, I just want to touch on

750
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: it for a sec in regards to this mummy wine

751
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: time concept, A thousand wasted Sundays, just talk about parenthood, alcohol, sobriety,

752
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: and your book wherever you'd like to take it.

753
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I classed myself as a socially acceptable binge drinker,

754
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 3: just like most people I know. I sort of found

755
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 3: a niche for myself between the pub and an AA

756
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 3: meeting where I was sort of falling through the gaps

757
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 3: because I didn't feel worthy of professional help. I didn't

758
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 3: feel like I was bad enough to deserve anyone to

759
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 3: step in or even to talk to it about about

760
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 3: it to anybody. I started to suffer severe anxiety after

761
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 3: I had my first child. I'd always been that party animal,

762
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 3: like last man standing on any dance floor, and I

763
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 3: was kind of proud of that. It was my identity,

764
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 3: it was my persona, It was who people wanted from me,

765
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 3: and I didn't look outside of that.

766
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 4: Ever. I was never a daily drinker. I don't think

767
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 4: I was ever physically addicted to alcohol, but I was

768
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 4: definitely mentally addicted to this persona and a preoccupa to

769
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 4: where my next drink was coming from when i'd had

770
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,240
Speaker 4: that first one. So, and I come from a family

771
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 4: of party animals. They're all lovely people, but they do

772
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 4: like a drink at a party. So I kind of

773
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 4: absorbed that from a very very young age.

774
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,720
Speaker 3: And I feel like alcohol, whether it was culturally, environmentally,

775
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 3: or generationally was coming at me at every direction from

776
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: the moment I was born.

777
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 4: And by giving up, I feel.

778
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 3: Like, you know, maybe I didn't have a choice about alcohol,

779
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 3: but now we have an alcohol free house. I hope

780
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 3: that it gives my own children a choice about what

781
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 3: they do with it. And it's been just a wonderful

782
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 3: journey learning about the role not only that it plays

783
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 3: in the individual, but also within our communities and how

784
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 3: it affects our parenting. And when I had my first child,

785
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, I had this consequence to my

786
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 3: drinking habit. I was the perfect mum, you know, with

787
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 3: the excreeting, bliss balls for breakfast, with the perfect throws

788
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 3: over my pram and at the weekend I wanted to

789
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,479
Speaker 3: let my hair down. I've met this amazing mother's group,

790
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 3: and you know, while they sat at the table having

791
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 3: a nice glass of wine, I probably up at the

792
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 3: bar ordering shots, trying to give everyone a good time, because.

793
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 4: That's all I knew.

794
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 3: So there was no learnings or teaching about this transition

795
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 3: from party girl to mum. And these two people collide

796
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 3: halfway through my first book, A Thousand Wasted Sundays, where

797
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 3: I'm in my bedroom with a baby crying beyond my hangover,

798
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 3: and I can't look after my child. And so I'd

799
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 3: never really had any consequences before. I mean, I blew

800
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 3: a finger off with a firework, I had recreational drug use,

801
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 3: a violent relationship. There were red flags whipping me across

802
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 3: the face for many, many years, but this one was

803
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 3: one that I couldn't run away from. I couldn't pack

804
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 3: my bag and leave the next day. I had a

805
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 3: child that needed me, and it took me four years

806
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 3: of trying moderation and failing, and I think there's only

807
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 3: so long you can go wrong at something before you

808
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 3: have to reach out and do something about it.

809
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 4: And actually I had.

810
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 3: A second child, and six weeks after she was born,

811
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 3: I went out and got hugely drunk, woke up the

812
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 3: next morning with that anxiety monster sitting at the end

813
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 3: of my bed, and walked into the lounge and said

814
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 3: to my husband, I don't feel like an alcoholic yet.

815
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: Alcohol is massive, having a massive impact on my life,

816
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 3: and I feel like I need to do something about it.

817
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 3: And that's when my journey to sobriety started. I reached

818
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 3: out for help. I started writing about it. I started

819
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 3: podcasting about it because I feel like there's this place,

820
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 3: this really interesting sort of gray area where everybody's drinking

821
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 3: at a social level. They're suffering with anxiety the next day,

822
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 3: but they're not really sure if their problems bad enough.

823
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 3: And what I worked out was that is, you know,

824
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 3: it's not about alcohol. It's about finding out who you

825
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,439
Speaker 3: were before it and who comes after it. And that's

826
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 3: what the journey is. And it doesn't matter whether it's

827
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 3: one glass of wine a day or one glass of

828
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 3: wine a month. It's about your own mental relationship with

829
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 3: it and working out whether you're doing it for the

830
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 3: right reasons and whether it's having any impact whatsoever.

831
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: Hearing you say that, there are so many questions that

832
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 1: I want to ask. We could do another full podcast

833
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: about it.

834
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally.

835
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: I'm just going to refer people to the book Thousand

836
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: Wasted Sundays by Victoria Vanstone. Of course, the main purpose

837
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 1: of our conversation today is about your most recent book,

838
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: Mumming A Year of Trying and failing to be a

839
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: better parent, Victoria. We're going to link to both of

840
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: those books in the show notes. I can't believe how

841
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: fast the time's gone. This has been such a delightful

842
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: and fun conversation. So grateful for your time and really

843
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: grateful for a your humor and be your insights in

844
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 1: what turned out to be a surprisingly delightful read for

845
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: the parenting expert who's a little bit snobby when it

846
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: comes to reading parenting books.

847
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:30,399
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

848
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 4: I appreciate it.

849
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 3: Thank you for being snobby and accepting me into your

850
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 3: realm of the good ones.

851
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 4: I appreciate one hundred.

852
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: Victoria Vanstone, the author of Mumming A Year of Trying

853
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 1: and Failing to be a Better Parent. We will link

854
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 1: to that in the show notes. The Happy Families podcast

855
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Thank you

856
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: for all your great work, Justin, and if you'd like

857
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: more information and resources to make your family happier and

858
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 1: maybe funnier, now you need Victoria for that, visit Happy

859
00:38:58,920 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: families dot com dot a