WEBVTT - Part 2 - A Look Back Behind the Bars

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<v Speaker 1>Good.

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<v Speaker 2>Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty

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<v Speaker 2>verdicts against all three defendants.

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<v Speaker 3>It was absolute shambles, to tell you the truth, just

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<v Speaker 3>absolutely really put his.

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<v Speaker 2>Blood on his clothing the day after the alleged a time.

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<v Speaker 1>On a shallow mud bank and the fits Roy River.

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<v Speaker 4>Basically, I think most of the people are used to

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<v Speaker 4>me are good people.

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<v Speaker 1>I think a really important question we need to ask

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<v Speaker 1>is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent.

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<v Speaker 2>This is Curtain, a podcast where we pull back the

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<v Speaker 2>blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of

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<v Speaker 2>our justice system and ask who are the victims.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm Amy Maguire and.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner

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<v Speaker 1>Support Service. And a warning this series contains the names

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<v Speaker 1>of deceased peoples and has distressing content that might upset

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<v Speaker 1>some listeners.

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<v Speaker 4>Welcome to episode seventy of Curtain the podcast. Last week

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<v Speaker 4>we brought you the first part of our chat with

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<v Speaker 4>Amy's father, Sterling Maguire. He served his country in the

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<v Speaker 4>Australian Army and then worked for more than twenty years

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<v Speaker 4>in the prison at Rockhampton. Last week he told us

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<v Speaker 4>about what it was like to be a black prison

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<v Speaker 4>guard at the jail, the time when Kevin Henry, after

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<v Speaker 4>many years in prison, came to him and told him

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<v Speaker 4>about his innocence and that a police officer had put

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<v Speaker 4>a gun to his head and forced him to confess

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<v Speaker 4>to the crime he didn't commit. And Sterling also explained

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<v Speaker 4>about the way he worked to improve conditions at the prison,

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<v Speaker 4>facilitating the family days where Aboriginal prisoners had elders and

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<v Speaker 4>their families come in, and the time that it first happened,

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<v Speaker 4>how smoothly it ran, and the benefits it had for

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<v Speaker 4>all the prisoners. This week we bring you the second

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<v Speaker 4>part of our chat.

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<v Speaker 2>Only can I ask you about what it was like

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<v Speaker 2>growing up in Rocky and what you think of the place,

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<v Speaker 2>because I think for a lot of our listeners, particularly overseas,

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<v Speaker 2>they don't know about rock Hampton and particularly what it's

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<v Speaker 2>like for mob growing up in rock Hampton.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I grew up and I'm still living in that area.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a working class suburb, meet workers, railway workers. Actually,

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<v Speaker 3>I can say that everyone grew up. It was a

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<v Speaker 3>everyone got on well with each other, so I you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I can say that that because it was when you

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<v Speaker 3>get working class people together, they're all in the same bait,

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<v Speaker 3>no matter where they come from. And I think I

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<v Speaker 3>had a good growing up whereas that's where it stuck

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<v Speaker 3>out to me. On the communities had it a lot different,

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<v Speaker 3>and I could tell that they just had it a

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<v Speaker 3>lot different. But now I can say where I grew

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<v Speaker 3>up and where I still live.

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<v Speaker 5>I had had.

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<v Speaker 3>I can say I had ad a good childhood down

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<v Speaker 3>where I came from. But like I said, I saw

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<v Speaker 3>the contrast from people from other areas and communities certainly

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<v Speaker 3>not the case.

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<v Speaker 2>So would you say in that sense Rack Campton's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>because what happened to Kevin was pretty horrific.

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<v Speaker 5>What's the reason behind what happened to Kevin?

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<v Speaker 2>Like in Rock Canada, I think a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>would say Rock Campton isn't a racist place.

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<v Speaker 5>But how would you describe it?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, like I said, I think I grew up in

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<v Speaker 3>a bit of a sheltered thing because down where I was,

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<v Speaker 3>everyone got on and everyone mixed in, all the families

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<v Speaker 3>mixed together. But there's probably not va case in other areas,

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<v Speaker 3>and you know I wasn't. It wasn't until late going

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<v Speaker 3>working out at the jail that I saw the difference

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<v Speaker 3>that things aren't the same. But like I said, I

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<v Speaker 3>am aware with police, with police that you've always got

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<v Speaker 3>to be on guard even now, you know, well that's everywhere,

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<v Speaker 3>I suppose.

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<v Speaker 2>Like, just taking it back to Kevin and his allegation

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<v Speaker 2>that a police officer held a gun to his head,

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<v Speaker 2>were you surprised at that allegation that Kevin made.

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<v Speaker 3>I was very surprised because I, in my mind didn't

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<v Speaker 3>think that a police could ever do that. Actually, I

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<v Speaker 3>was shocked by it. I just didn't think that police

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<v Speaker 3>anywhere could ever do that. But then that's because of

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<v Speaker 3>my growing up background down where I came from. You

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<v Speaker 3>know that the local policeman down there years ago was

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<v Speaker 3>well respected. You know, I did a lot for the

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<v Speaker 3>community's and that's what I saw. M So you see

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<v Speaker 3>where I'm trying to But you said you believed, Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>Well I was surprised, but yeah, I thought, well he

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<v Speaker 3>was because he said it in such a way. Was

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<v Speaker 3>the manner in which he said it, the manner in

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<v Speaker 3>which he said it, because I thought about it a

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<v Speaker 3>lot after he said it.

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<v Speaker 5>He said, well, why would he.

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<v Speaker 3>Say that to me? I thought, I couldn't believe that

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<v Speaker 3>he would just tell me a lie and make something up,

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<v Speaker 3>because why would he said the way he said it.

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<v Speaker 5>It was a ring of.

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<v Speaker 3>Truth to it.

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<v Speaker 5>So you thought Kevin was a trustworthy.

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<v Speaker 3>Witness, yes, when he said that to me. But I

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<v Speaker 3>was just shocked that a police could do that. I

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<v Speaker 3>was shocked because that to think that. But the way

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<v Speaker 3>Kevin said that to me, and he'd never like all

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<v Speaker 3>the years before we talked to you hello in order

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<v Speaker 3>to just you know, but the way he said it

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<v Speaker 3>that day, there was something about it.

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<v Speaker 2>But I feel like it was around the time of

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<v Speaker 2>the Fitzgerald in so police brutality was in the news,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean, particularly in Rockounder.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well at Fitzgerald inquiry. That's right, there was a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of stuff brought out about police and that sort

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<v Speaker 3>of opened it a lot of it. I think a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of people were shocked of it what all come

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<v Speaker 3>out of it. And so yeah, this was all yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>being released. So it's like I said, it added up

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<v Speaker 3>to things was before a lot of you know, unless

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<v Speaker 3>you're involved in something general public doesn't know.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah. I think that's a really important point, is that

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<v Speaker 4>so often the general public has an idea or think

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<v Speaker 4>they have an idea of what's going on, and then

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<v Speaker 4>something like Fitzgerald happens and we really see the dark

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<v Speaker 4>layers get exposed. I guess one thing at the time

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<v Speaker 4>ninety one, ninety two, and from what you know and

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<v Speaker 4>the people you've worked with over the years, do you

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<v Speaker 4>think think there was a different treatment for in rock

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<v Speaker 4>Hampton by police and in the jails of people who

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<v Speaker 4>were from the communities outside the main town and the

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<v Speaker 4>people who did congregate on the riverbank.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, undoubtedly they were. They were just thought of as trash.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, no, oh yes, yes, yes, even now it's

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<v Speaker 3>still there, even now, yeah yeah, they look they definitely

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<v Speaker 3>looked down and there still still still goes on.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeh.

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<v Speaker 3>But they just say, like the people on the river bank,

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<v Speaker 3>all they ever wanted to do is just to be

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<v Speaker 3>away by them. So usually they hide away to be

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<v Speaker 3>away from prying eyes. But as populations and development, especially

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<v Speaker 3>along the river bank is grown and grown, they've just

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<v Speaker 3>been pushed because where you see a high rise apartment building,

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<v Speaker 3>well then people complained, oh, I've got to get these

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<v Speaker 3>people out of here, and so they've you know, they

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<v Speaker 3>got more and more less places where they can go,

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<v Speaker 3>and so yeah, no, they have been treated differently.

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<v Speaker 4>And so it sounds like if someone was going to

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<v Speaker 4>be targeted, and someone was going to be threatened in

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<v Speaker 4>that way, the most vulnerable people were people like Kevin

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<v Speaker 4>from places like Worrying down on.

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<v Speaker 2>The river.

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<v Speaker 3>Exactly. He fits right in that area. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

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<v Speaker 5>But like I was just saying, like you knew Kevin.

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<v Speaker 2>I know you said you didn't know him personally, but

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<v Speaker 2>he knew him a bit, Like he wasn't known for

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<v Speaker 2>being a violent person.

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<v Speaker 5>Was he down?

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<v Speaker 3>No, we say when he first at the start of

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<v Speaker 3>his sentence, he was troublesome. But then like I said,

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<v Speaker 3>before I put myself in that boat, I would have

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<v Speaker 3>been troublesome.

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<v Speaker 5>And troublesome Dad, Like, I don't.

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<v Speaker 3>Think troublesome, troublesome like you know, stir up and things

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<v Speaker 3>like that.

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<v Speaker 5>So that's it.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And I think one thing people have to understand

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<v Speaker 4>is that for those who are guilty, often it is

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<v Speaker 4>easier to do the time than those who are innocent.

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<v Speaker 4>There is a constant agitation for those who are innocent

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<v Speaker 4>that everything that goes on, every misstep, every time they

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<v Speaker 4>feel bit disrespected, there is that deep feeling for them,

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<v Speaker 4>I shouldn't be here and they react to everything, and

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<v Speaker 4>that is, as Sterling says, when you put yourself in

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<v Speaker 4>that position, totally understandable.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And of course when he was troublesome, well he

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<v Speaker 3>became well, not a target, but yeah, he's he's a Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>he attracts a lot of interest from the jail authorities.

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<v Speaker 4>And it becomes a double edged sword because yes, you're agitated,

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<v Speaker 4>you're making trouble because what else can you do. At

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<v Speaker 4>the same time harder that people are going to believe

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<v Speaker 4>that you're innocent because they see you as this troublemaker.

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<v Speaker 4>And it's pretty clear if people put themselves in that

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<v Speaker 4>situation that you're in a shocking prison condition, you're innocent,

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<v Speaker 4>with no way of getting out, and your mental health

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<v Speaker 4>is spiraling out of control. You're agitated, and the view

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<v Speaker 4>of everyone else around you is not great to begin with,

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<v Speaker 4>and they're going to not believe that this is a

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<v Speaker 4>person who was wrongly convicted. And again, I think it

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<v Speaker 4>goes back to why it took Kevin so long to

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<v Speaker 4>tell Sterling that and to talk to other people about it,

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<v Speaker 4>is because people have really got to understand that these

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<v Speaker 4>are not easy conversations to have, and these are the

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<v Speaker 4>hardest environments on earth to have them. For a young

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<v Speaker 4>blackfellow like Kevin Henry, who'd been down on the river

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<v Speaker 4>bank and you know, as we've talked to four years now,

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<v Speaker 4>looked down upon by everyone. For the police then to

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<v Speaker 4>set up someone like that, it's not even a long bow.

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<v Speaker 4>It's just how things are and how things were. And

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<v Speaker 4>I think we have a lot of a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>work to do to understand our history. And too often

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<v Speaker 4>we see the number of four hundred and thirty eight

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<v Speaker 4>black deaths in custody, but we don't really know why

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<v Speaker 4>they happen, and more important, we don't know the context

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<v Speaker 4>in which they happen and the way Aboriginal and Terrestraate

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<v Speaker 4>islander lives are viewed. As we've long discussed, clearly these

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<v Speaker 4>things haven't changed. And as you've heard, I mean, the

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<v Speaker 4>efforts were there, the family days and having the officers

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<v Speaker 4>there who were respected by their own people, and conveniently

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<v Speaker 4>that was left to try and fail. And when it

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<v Speaker 4>didn't fail, because when Aboriginal people organize something their own people,

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<v Speaker 4>it worked every single time. So then they strip the

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<v Speaker 4>funding back so we kind of have to understand, and

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<v Speaker 4>I think it's particularly important for overseas people and non

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<v Speaker 4>Aboriginal people in Australia that it's not like there's people

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<v Speaker 4>who haven't been trying to fix this since they dot.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, here you had Sterling, a prison guard, given

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<v Speaker 4>no notice and organizing families and elders inside a prison

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<v Speaker 4>and it went off without a hitch. Now you can't

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<v Speaker 4>do that anywhere else. I know the worst prisons in

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<v Speaker 4>the world, that's my job to know them. You can't

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<v Speaker 4>do that with other people. But Aboriginal people, as Sterling

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<v Speaker 4>demonstrated on that day and after, can do it even

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<v Speaker 4>when the whole state is working against them. So when

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<v Speaker 4>we talk about change, it's very clear the evidence is

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<v Speaker 4>that it has to be Aboriginal led. That people have

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<v Speaker 4>to accept. We're saying about how bad things have been

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<v Speaker 4>and how bad things are, but also that the solutions

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<v Speaker 4>are there because they've already happened. You just never knew

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<v Speaker 4>they took place.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think going back, you know, going backwards and forth,

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<v Speaker 3>but going back with ire, with my growing up, that's

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<v Speaker 3>why I went back to that little pocket because during

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<v Speaker 3>my military service, being all around Australia. I noticed things

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<v Speaker 3>are a bit different, and so I couldn't wait to

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<v Speaker 3>get back to my little pocket and that's where I

0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:38.320
<v Speaker 3>am now because it was such a you know, I

0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:42.760
<v Speaker 3>think that's really how how everyone should be. Was so

0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:44.079
<v Speaker 3>great down there, you know.

0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.560
<v Speaker 5>What's that? Yeah?

0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.319
<v Speaker 3>So can you see what I was trying to say before.

0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:53.480
<v Speaker 4>Like yeah, and I think that goes full certain.

0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:56.000
<v Speaker 3>Things different in New South Wales, things different in Victoria.

0:13:56.120 --> 0:14:02.480
<v Speaker 3>Like it's just attitudes and just that different somehow. Yeah,

0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.240
<v Speaker 3>that's why I come back to that little area. That's

0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:07.160
<v Speaker 3>where I am. I couldn't wait to get back to

0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:12.280
<v Speaker 3>that place. And you know, things changed. It's not the

0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:16.880
<v Speaker 3>same community as before. People old people have died, you know,

0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.280
<v Speaker 3>people grew up there have left. But I still like

0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:21.000
<v Speaker 3>it down there.

0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:24.720
<v Speaker 2>Can always just ask you as well, Like over the

0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:26.800
<v Speaker 2>past three years, me and Martin have been you've been

0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.960
<v Speaker 2>seeing us do our investigation into Kevin Henry, Like as

0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:33.280
<v Speaker 2>we've found out more about Kevin's case than we've you've

0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:34.040
<v Speaker 2>been listening to the.

0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:37.680
<v Speaker 5>Podcast, has there been anything that surprised you about his case?

0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.320
<v Speaker 2>And even just learning more about rock Hampton and around

0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:42.760
<v Speaker 2>that time, what was happening.

0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:49.680
<v Speaker 3>Well, it added a few things up, Like there was

0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:54.120
<v Speaker 3>a death of another Aboriginal woman in the Fitzroy I

0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:58.040
<v Speaker 3>think at nineteen seventy five, and I won't name her

0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:06.920
<v Speaker 3>name for respect family. But that's another cold case. Another

0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:15.480
<v Speaker 3>it was a terrible death, but nothing, it's just nothing.

0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:20.480
<v Speaker 3>Nothing ever, no result of it come out of that.

0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:28.240
<v Speaker 3>So she died in the river. It was very similar circumstance.

0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:33.560
<v Speaker 3>So and like I said, the river's got a bit

0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:34.120
<v Speaker 3>of a history.

0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:38.360
<v Speaker 4>At this point, we took a break. We've been recording

0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.960
<v Speaker 4>for nearly an hour, and while we paused to just

0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:46.520
<v Speaker 4>have a chat and see how everything was going, we

0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.200
<v Speaker 4>left the recording still going, and we thought we'd bring

0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:54.119
<v Speaker 4>you some snippets of the conversation we had amongst ourselves

0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.560
<v Speaker 4>as we talked about the little things that had happened

0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.920
<v Speaker 4>during the process and things things that had come to

0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:04.400
<v Speaker 4>mind for all of us as we were recording the

0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:05.880
<v Speaker 4>last couple of episodes.

0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.920
<v Speaker 3>Because Martin, I don't see your side of it. You've

0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.600
<v Speaker 3>done this so many times with people overseas and here,

0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:19.360
<v Speaker 3>and obviously you can pick up a familiar thread.

0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:20.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:25.800
<v Speaker 4>Whereas Yeah, and that's the benefit I think of doing

0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:30.640
<v Speaker 4>this is that everyone has their own personal experience and

0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:33.560
<v Speaker 4>we're never sure what else is going on, what else

0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.600
<v Speaker 4>is other people experiencing, And it's not until you hear

0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.760
<v Speaker 4>these collective stories that people go, oh crap, this is

0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:44.000
<v Speaker 4>happening all over. Yeah.

0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:49.680
<v Speaker 6>The other thing about Aboriginal prisoners out here, almost one

0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:58.280
<v Speaker 6>like around Kevin's age, huge mortality rate because I sort

0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.800
<v Speaker 6>of remember thinking the other day of the years, like

0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.800
<v Speaker 6>I saw them when they go out come back in

0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:10.439
<v Speaker 6>over the years, they just decline, they just decline, they

0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:14.160
<v Speaker 6>just and then the majority of them are dead.

0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:18.000
<v Speaker 3>Now that that night that Kevin come back.

0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:19.120
<v Speaker 1>And.

0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.760
<v Speaker 3>A lot of the prisoners that are in the block

0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:26.960
<v Speaker 3>that he went into, they're practically all dead.

0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.679
<v Speaker 4>That was Yeah, that was one thing I meant to

0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.359
<v Speaker 4>ask you was how unusual was it for someone to

0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.280
<v Speaker 4>be bought back just before lockdown?

0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:39.640
<v Speaker 5>Oh?

0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.879
<v Speaker 3>Very unusual. I think that that court session went very

0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:46.320
<v Speaker 3>late that yeah, Okay, I don't know why it went

0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:51.280
<v Speaker 3>so late, but he did because they normally didn't come

0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:51.880
<v Speaker 3>back that late.

0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:53.040
<v Speaker 5>Look back, so.

0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:55.720
<v Speaker 4>That's well after dark that he's come back.

0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:57.280
<v Speaker 5>But no, it was there.

0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:02.560
<v Speaker 3>It was dark brought him back in, so it was dark,

0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:03.960
<v Speaker 3>that's right.

0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.080
<v Speaker 4>And do you remember that ever happening another time.

0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:15.399
<v Speaker 3>No, they can't, No, no, because they brought him in.

0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:19.320
<v Speaker 3>They took him down to the detention unit. That's where

0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:23.159
<v Speaker 3>he went. That's what they did a lot when they

0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:25.320
<v Speaker 3>brought him back, like they brought him in the detention unit.

0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:28.320
<v Speaker 3>I'm pretty sure he went to the attention but he

0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:29.120
<v Speaker 3>can tell you that.

0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:31.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well I don't. I've talked to him about it.

0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:37.360
<v Speaker 4>He doesn't remember it a lot, and that's straight. Well,

0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:42.119
<v Speaker 4>one thing I'm very suspicious of. I may never be

0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:44.000
<v Speaker 4>able to prove it in Kevin's case, but I know

0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:48.000
<v Speaker 4>it's definitely true in others that they were drugging the prisoners.

0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:51.760
<v Speaker 5>Oh wouldn't that make sense because Kevin canberla.

0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:55.080
<v Speaker 4>Remember, Yeah, they used to use put give him valiant,

0:18:55.480 --> 0:19:00.960
<v Speaker 4>but big in big doses too. So the idea was

0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:05.600
<v Speaker 4>that it was to control behavior. They had an official

0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.360
<v Speaker 4>word for it. But one thing we got.

0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:14.360
<v Speaker 3>Well that what you just said adds up because every

0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:18.040
<v Speaker 3>prisoner that got you know, went to trial and got

0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.960
<v Speaker 3>convicted for life or murder. When they come back, they

0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:24.320
<v Speaker 3>just quietly back into their block or went, you know, quietly.

0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:26.959
<v Speaker 5>There was no kickout.

0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:32.320
<v Speaker 3>Well, I always I've never remembered one doing that. Oh well,

0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.280
<v Speaker 3>that makes sense because he was very quiet.

0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:35.840
<v Speaker 5>Can't remember anything.

0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:41.920
<v Speaker 3>Remember they had him hand cuptain everything, but they took

0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.800
<v Speaker 3>him down to the du it was dark.

0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.120
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it was a very deliberate thing. And the other

0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:51.199
<v Speaker 4>thing it did is it made the person look like

0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:53.520
<v Speaker 4>they had no emotion to the jury as well.

0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.760
<v Speaker 2>M Yeah, yeah, because I was wondering why Kevin couldn't

0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:00.840
<v Speaker 2>remember things, because I'm like, surely you would remember.

0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:02.760
<v Speaker 4>That, given they would have been given it to him,

0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:06.440
<v Speaker 4>probably every day the whole time of the trial. He

0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:09.560
<v Speaker 4>probably Yeah, he wouldn't remember anything for those first few weeks.

0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:10.399
<v Speaker 4>I wouldn't have thought.

0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm always surprising Kevin says he can barely remember anything,

0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:16.600
<v Speaker 2>because I'm like, it's such a big part of your life, Like,

0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.640
<v Speaker 2>how do you not remember what was happening? And yeah,

0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:21.720
<v Speaker 2>because we tell him, he's like, we know more about

0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:22.440
<v Speaker 2>the case than him.

0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:22.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:30.040
<v Speaker 3>I remember two prisons, both white, that I put into

0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:33.160
<v Speaker 3>the yard after they'd come back and just been sentenced

0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:37.639
<v Speaker 3>to life. And both of these fellas, I was there

0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:41.680
<v Speaker 3>when I let them out when they got their parole

0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:46.320
<v Speaker 3>after thirteen years. Twice I saw them go in and

0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:49.560
<v Speaker 3>I saw them go out. Yeah, it's funny. I have

0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:53.600
<v Speaker 3>flashbacks all the time from the jail. Things will come

0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.800
<v Speaker 3>to me anytime during the day when I'm at work,

0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:01.280
<v Speaker 3>when I'm at home, same as in you know, I

0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:08.600
<v Speaker 3>just have flash flashbacks, little things like it's like it's yesterday.

0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:10.480
<v Speaker 5>It's funny that.

0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:14.760
<v Speaker 4>Well, I think that'll happen for Kevin too, Like I think,

0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:17.840
<v Speaker 4>you know, he's really only been out a few months

0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:23.200
<v Speaker 4>still that he hasn't had time to decompress and let

0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:28.400
<v Speaker 4>that sort of high state of awareness that you're in

0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:30.480
<v Speaker 4>the whole time when you're in a place like that

0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:33.879
<v Speaker 4>drop down so that he can go back through his mind.

0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:37.400
<v Speaker 4>That was episode seventy of Curtain