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Speaker 1: The research is very clear rewards like punishments, can only

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Speaker 1: get temporary compliance, and in both cases they retard moral

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Speaker 1: and social and intellectual development.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: Hello, I'm doctor Justin Colson here with my wife and

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Speaker 2: co host. I got in trouble for saying that Kylie

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Speaker 2: was my co host. She said, no, no, no, I'm wife

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Speaker 2: and co host. So we're going to get this right.

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Speaker 2: Here with my wife and co host and missus Happy Families, Kylie,

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Speaker 2: thank you for being here.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: This is day four of our podcast. How are you

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Speaker 2: finding it?

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Speaker 3: I'm loving it.

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Speaker 2: It's a bit stressful.

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Speaker 3: Is a bit stressful, be honest, pushing me out of

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Speaker 3: my comfort zone. But I am absolutely loving the challenge.

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Speaker 2: I've got to tell you, all we talk about now

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Speaker 2: is the podcast. That's all we talk about, and we've

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Speaker 2: got to listen to every episode five times so that

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Speaker 2: we can deconstruct it. And I think we're actually learning

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Speaker 2: some really cool stuff about each other and about how

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Speaker 2: we can work together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I agree.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, we're the parents of six kids. I've written six

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Speaker 2: books about raising happy families. And today on the podcast

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Speaker 2: something pretty big.

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Speaker 3: I'm pretty excited about our interview today. We're going to

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Speaker 3: talk to someone who's been on Oprah. Do you know

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Speaker 3: how big a deal that is.

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Speaker 2: I haven't been on Oprah, so I don't know it's

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Speaker 2: a big deal. I'd love to be on OPRAH. That

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Speaker 2: would be I.

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Speaker 3: Would love you to be on Oprah too. That means

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Speaker 3: I might actually get to meet her. Time magazine has

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Speaker 3: described him as being perhaps the country's most outspoken critic

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Speaker 3: on education's fixation with grades and test scores, and justin

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Speaker 3: he probably is one of the biggest influences on you

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Speaker 3: of any author. I know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. If I was to put a list

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Speaker 2: together of people that I would love to interview for

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Speaker 2: this podcast, this guy would be right at the very

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Speaker 2: told the list. And we've got him. So I'm crazy exciting.

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Speaker 2: I'm ecstatic. Alfie Kohane is the name of the person

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Speaker 2: we're speaking to in just a sec. He's a very

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Speaker 2: very well known author and writer around parenting and education,

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Speaker 2: those kinds of areas. In nineteen ninety three, Alfie wrote

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Speaker 2: a book that was called Punished by Rewards, and that

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Speaker 2: was pretty much the central reason that I left my

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Speaker 2: radio career and went back to school to study psychology.

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Speaker 2: Alfie is the reason that I am, in many ways

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Speaker 2: who I am today. His influence has been far reaching,

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Speaker 2: and he's affected not just me, but our family and

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Speaker 2: obviously thousands and thousands and tens of thousands, if not

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Speaker 2: millions of parents around the globe. So so excited to

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Speaker 2: be able to talk to Alfie today.

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Speaker 3: You know, I actually remember when you brought that book

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Speaker 3: home and you wanted me to read it. It's not

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Speaker 3: a book for the fainthearted. It was a really, really

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Speaker 3: intense book. But I remember how excited you were about

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Speaker 3: all of the concepts you were learning, and specifically actually

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Speaker 3: having an opportunity to talk to Alfie on the phone

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Speaker 3: for the first time. I remember that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not only did I talk to him, but then

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Speaker 2: a few years later he was in Australia and I

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Speaker 2: got to hang out with him. In fact, I drove

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Speaker 2: him from the central coast of New South Wales down

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Speaker 2: to Sydney because he needed transport, and I was the

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Speaker 2: one that contacted the organizers and said, what you need,

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Speaker 2: how can I help? And I said, oh, we really

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Speaker 2: need someone to get taken for a drive. So I

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Speaker 2: can do that. So that was pretty epic. And Alfie,

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Speaker 2: we've got you here right now.

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Speaker 3: Elfie, can I start Hubert, I'd love to ask you

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Speaker 3: a question when we think about punishment and discipline together,

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Speaker 3: why is punishment such a lousy way to discipline our kids?

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Speaker 1: Because punishment teaches power. It undermines the possibility of moral

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Speaker 1: growth in children. If I say to kids, do this,

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Speaker 1: or here's how I'm going to make you suffer, which

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Speaker 1: is what punishment is, and by the way, you can

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Speaker 1: call it consequences, it's still the same thing. It says

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Speaker 1: to kids, do this or here's what I'm going to

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Speaker 1: do to you. Then kids are first of all thinking

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Speaker 1: only about themselves how do I avoid the punishment, never

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Speaker 1: about the impact of their actions on others. All use

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Speaker 1: of consequences punishment focuses kids narrowly on self interest. And secondly,

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Speaker 1: what they have modeled for them is that someone who

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Speaker 1: has more power than they do can coerce them into

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Speaker 1: doing whatever he or she wants. And that's the main

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Speaker 1: lesson that kids learn. Sometimes they take it out on

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Speaker 1: others that very same day when they come across peers

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Speaker 1: who have less power than they do, so punishment is

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Speaker 1: a way of doing things to children, and the only

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Speaker 1: way we help kids become good people is by working

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Speaker 1: with them. To put it slightly differently, the only thing

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Speaker 1: you can ever get from any kind of punishment, from

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Speaker 1: forcible isolation, which is euphemistically called time out, to withdrawal

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Speaker 1: of privileges or yelling, spanking, whatever it is, the only

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Speaker 1: thing you can ever get is temporary compliance at an

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Speaker 1: enormous cost.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that reminds me a story that I love to tell.

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Speaker 2: When I was about fifteen years old, I was I

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Speaker 2: was in the kitchen. My little sister was driving me

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Speaker 2: up the wall, and I said a word that we're

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Speaker 2: not supposed to use in my family. You know, we

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Speaker 2: had some very strict rules around the kind of language

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Speaker 2: we used. And I called my sister a stupid idiot.

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Speaker 2: I said something like, oh, shut up, your stupid idiot.

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Speaker 2: My mom heard and came dashing into the kitchen, said, justin,

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Speaker 2: we don't speak like that in this house. You need

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Speaker 2: to say sorry to your sister right now. And so

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Speaker 2: here's a false apology. So I'm obviously being dishonest when

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Speaker 2: I apologize. But I looked at my sister and I

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Speaker 2: said to a fine carena, I'm sorry, you're a stupid idiot,

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Speaker 2: which obviously made a lot of sense to my fifteen

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Speaker 2: year old brain, but it infuriated my mum, who, with

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Speaker 2: the best of intentions, said, you go to your room

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Speaker 2: right now, and you think about what you just said.

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Speaker 2: And you know, Alfie, I went.

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Speaker 1: I had any child in history ever thought in a

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Speaker 1: constructive way after being forcibly isolated. What you're thinking about

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Speaker 1: in that room is how unfair it is that you're there,

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Speaker 1: how you're misunderstood, and how you're going to get back

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Speaker 1: at your sister when your mother isn't looking. Never can

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Speaker 1: you get a response by simply making kids unhappy, by

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Speaker 1: taking things away from them or putting them in their

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Speaker 1: rooms or whatever, and forced apologies, Well, that teaches kids

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Speaker 1: to lie. Yeah, and what all say things that they

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Speaker 1: don't believe.

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Speaker 2: What I was going to say is that I went

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Speaker 2: to my room, I sat on my bed, and I

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Speaker 2: thought carefully about how I was an impediment to my

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Speaker 2: family's happiness, and I resolved to be a bit of human.

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Speaker 2: But I didn't really I did exactly Yeah, what you said.

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Speaker 2: I was furious about my mom and how she didn't

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Speaker 2: understand me. It really ruptured my relationship in that moment, right,

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Speaker 2: and boy boy, I couldn't wait to get back at

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Speaker 2: my sister when mom wasn't watching.

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Speaker 1: Right, And the alternative to anticipate maybe where you're going next,

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Speaker 1: Sin said, no, we have very limited time. That is

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Speaker 1: offered to many parents is instead of using sticks, use tarrots.

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Speaker 1: Instead of controlling them by making them suffer if they

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Speaker 1: don't do what you want, give them a doggy biscuit

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Speaker 1: if they do do what you want. But rewards are

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Speaker 1: just the flip side of punishment. So if I threaten

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Speaker 1: to punish a kid, I'm saying, do this, here's what

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do to you. If I reward children

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Speaker 1: or offer to reward them, I'm saying, do this and

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Speaker 1: you'll get that. So in the first case with punishment,

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Speaker 1: kids come to ask the question what do they want

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Speaker 1: me to do and what happens to me if I

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Speaker 1: don't do it? If you offer a reward for good behavior,

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Speaker 1: which typically means mindlessly obedient, not generous or thoughtful, but

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Speaker 1: then the question kids come to ask is what do

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Speaker 1: they want me to do and what do I get

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Speaker 1: for doing it? And so the research is very clear

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Speaker 1: that rewards like punishments, can only get temporary compliance, and

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Speaker 1: in both cases they retard moral and social and intellectual development.

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Speaker 1: Because we have hundreds of studies showing that the more

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Speaker 1: you reward people for doing something, the more they tend

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Speaker 1: to lose interest in whatever they had to do to

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Speaker 1: get the reward. So, on the one hand, if you

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Speaker 1: want to destroy children's interest in reading, for example, you

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Speaker 1: would offer a prize for reading a book because now

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Speaker 1: you've taught them that reading is something you would never

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Speaker 1: want to do, and it becomes devalued. They say, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, if this was so much fun, they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have to bribe me to do it. But the other

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Speaker 1: reason that it devalues, that that kids lose interest in

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Speaker 1: whatever they're rewarded for doing is because it's it's control.

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Speaker 1: If I punish a kid for doing something, it's obvious

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Speaker 1: I'm controlling them. But what a lot of parents don't

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Speaker 1: realize is if they reward kids, and that includes verbal

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Speaker 1: rewards like good job, I really like thewau dot dot dot,

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Speaker 1: this is just a verbal doggie biscuit, and all rewards

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Speaker 1: are just sugar coated control, and kids don't like being controlled,

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Speaker 1: So We have research that shows that almost anything that

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Speaker 1: kids are rewarded for doing becomes less appealing to them.

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Speaker 1: They have less commitment to it over the long haul

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Speaker 1: of Several studies have shown a couple of just in

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Speaker 1: the last few years that children who are frequently rewarded

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Speaker 1: or praised by their parents are less generous and helpful

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Speaker 1: than other kids. And the effect is most pronounced if

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Speaker 1: they're rewarded or praised for being helpful. So you are

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Speaker 1: undermining with the use of any kind of reward, including

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Speaker 1: praise or punishment, including time out. The only alternatives to

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Speaker 1: this are not quite so easy to script or to

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Speaker 1: sa a one size fits all when you do this,

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Speaker 1: when your kid does this, you should do that. So

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Speaker 1: it's frustrating because you actually have to think, as opposed

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Speaker 1: to being scripted out by a parenting expert. But rewards

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Speaker 1: and punishments are ways, as a say, of doing things

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Speaker 1: to children forms of control. What helps us to become

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Speaker 1: the best parents we can is to figure out ways

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Speaker 1: of working with them to solve problems.

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Speaker 3: Alvie, what about those parents who would say, but I

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Speaker 3: just can't get my kids to do anything without a reward.

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Speaker 3: You know those parents who are using reward charts or

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Speaker 3: other ways of coercing the children to do the household chores.

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Speaker 3: Some parents would actually say that the kids are more

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Speaker 3: motivated by using them.

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Speaker 1: Right, and the question is not how do we motivate kids?

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Speaker 1: The question is how our kids motivated. For the last

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Speaker 1: few decades, psychologists have helped us understand that there are

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Speaker 1: different kinds of motivation, and the kind matters more than

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Speaker 1: the amount. Specifically, psychologists talk about the difference between intrinsic motivation,

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Speaker 1: which means you do something because you want to do it,

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Speaker 1: because you get a kick out of it, it's satisfying,

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Speaker 1: and extrinsic motivation, which is where you do it to

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Speaker 1: avoid a punishment or to get a reward. And what

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Speaker 1: we know from research as well as experience is that

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Speaker 1: the two tend to be inversely related. So the child

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Speaker 1: who seems quote motivated to do it in order to

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Speaker 1: get the gold star, the ice cream, calm, the good job, whatever,

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Speaker 1: has more extrinsic motivation, and as a direct result, is

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Speaker 1: now less committed to being a helpful person, less interested

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Speaker 1: in whether his actions around the house are making other

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Speaker 1: people feel good. So I guess when I see the

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Speaker 1: when parents say, you know they work. I always ask

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Speaker 1: work to do what what's your goal? You can get

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Speaker 1: mindless obedience in the short run if the reward is

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Speaker 1: juicy enough or the punishment is awful enough. What you

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Speaker 1: can never get is a child who is happy, more ethical,

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Speaker 1: more compassionate, or caring, more of an independent thinker, all

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Speaker 1: of the things we parents want in the long run

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Speaker 1: for our goal. Rewards like star charts and stickers and

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Speaker 1: the life actually get in the way of those more ambitious, meaningful,

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Speaker 1: long term goals.

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Speaker 2: If I'm not going to use punishments and I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to use rewards, what does Alfie Kane and the

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Speaker 2: research suggest would be the best way to respond to

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Speaker 2: this child who is just driving me up the wall?

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Speaker 1: Talk less, ask more. There's no one size fits all solution.

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Speaker 1: As I indicated before, everything will depend on what's going

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Speaker 1: on in this child's environment and in this child's head.

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Speaker 1: Five different kids who are seen as difficult or troubling

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Speaker 1: or making us go crazy and pushing our buttons, maybe

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Speaker 1: doing it for five completely different reasons, and each of

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Speaker 1: those reasons calls for a different course of action. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is the thing. When I wrote my book unconditional parenting,

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Speaker 1: which is get specifically to looking at paran punished by rewards,

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Speaker 1: also looks at schools and workplaces as well as families.

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Speaker 1: But I had to in the working with section the

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Speaker 1: what do we do instead? You know, break the bad

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Speaker 1: news that I'm not going to give you a magic formula.

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Speaker 1: If a child is acting this way rolling the eyes,

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Speaker 1: because frankly we're saying stuff that deserves an eye rolling,

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Speaker 1: then the problem is not the kid. The problem is

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Speaker 1: with what we have been doing that we need to rethink,

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Speaker 1: and we need to come to the child and say,

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Speaker 1: I'm really frustrated sometimes by your attitude here, and I

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Speaker 1: want to hear where it's coming from. And then you

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Speaker 1: have to listen for the answer without getting defensive or huffy.

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Speaker 1: And then when there's a particular problem, like we want

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Speaker 1: to get to the house clean, I don't know about

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Speaker 1: using a different technique to get the kid's room clean.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's the kid's room, isn't it. Why would

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Speaker 1: the kid have to keep it up to our standards?

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Speaker 1: In other words, the premise of the question here ought

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Speaker 1: to be called into question. Don't ask how I get

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Speaker 1: the kid to do X? If I can't use punishments

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Speaker 1: and rewards. Begin by asking whether X really needs to

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Speaker 1: be done. But if we're convinced it does like everybody

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Speaker 1: should pitch in with stuff around dinner, then I would

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Speaker 1: be asking the child, you know what's the problem here?

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Speaker 1: What can be done? What do you think you can

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Speaker 1: do in order to help help things go smoothly whenever possible.

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Speaker 1: Kids learn to make good decisions by making decisions, not

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Speaker 1: by following directions, and so we end up getting kids

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Speaker 1: who are happier to participate because they feel trusted and

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Speaker 1: respected as a result of our asking about their experience

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Speaker 1: and responding appropriately rather than mindlessly and unilaterally trying to

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Speaker 1: impose our demands and agenda on them.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like something that I share with parents is

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Speaker 2: what I call the three a's of effective discipline. When

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Speaker 2: I say discipline, I mean discipline is teaching and guiding

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Speaker 2: and instructing. It's helping our children to internalize those things

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Speaker 2: that matter most. So I talk about how we need

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Speaker 2: to explore their world, explore why they're struggling with this

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Speaker 2: question that we've asked, which helps us to understand whether

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Speaker 2: it was a good question or a good behavior or

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Speaker 2: requested in the first place, and then we explain what

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Speaker 2: our rationale is so that they can at least see

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Speaker 2: what our perspective is, and then we empower them to

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Speaker 2: work together with us to find a solution that's mutually agreeable.

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Speaker 2: It sounds to me like that's the kind of process

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Speaker 2: that you're describing.

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Speaker 1: Uh yes, but with not to throw away, but to

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Speaker 1: really linger on the problem. On that one aspect that

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Speaker 1: a lot of times when kids don't do what we've

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Speaker 1: told them, the problem is with what we've told them,

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Speaker 1: and so we have to begin by being willing to

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Speaker 1: question the premise, whether it's what we're asking of them

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Speaker 1: is reasonable, whether it's developmentally appropriate, and so on, and

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Speaker 1: then to keep checking back with them. It's let them

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Speaker 1: propose and then let's talk about it later to see

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Speaker 1: how it's going.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like effective exploration is the is the

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Speaker 2: central pillar there, Alfie. This has just been such an

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Speaker 2: awesome conversation. Thank you so much for your time. It's

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Speaker 2: been an absolute pleasure speaking about the problems of punishment

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Speaker 2: and rewards being used as a way to get our

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Speaker 2: kids to do what we want them to do.

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Speaker 3: I reckon we need to get Alfie backy In Justin,

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Speaker 3: that was just such a worthwhile conversation.

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Speaker 1: Do you reckon We could have you back, Elfie, Sure

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Speaker 1: be happy to do it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe we can talk about one of your other books,

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Speaker 2: Unconditional Parenting. Thanks so much for listening to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: I want to just Kylie, I'm going to get you

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Speaker 2: to share a review ruther than me because I always

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Speaker 2: shared these reviews. But we've had another five star review

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Speaker 2: coming in the last day or so. We sure have.

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Speaker 3: Mookie wat said, my friend recommended this podcast channel, and

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Speaker 3: I'm so glad I gave it a go. It was

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Speaker 3: great content and very relatable. My daughter is still quite young,

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Speaker 3: but I think it's great as a parent to get

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Speaker 3: an good mindset when it comes to parenting and start

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Speaker 3: working on those techniques that have been.

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Speaker 2: Discussed five stars.

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Speaker 1: Love that.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for the five star reviews. It's

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Speaker 2: your reviews that help people to find the podcast. It's

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Speaker 2: the five star reviews that bump it up along the

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Speaker 2: Apple let's take notice of this podcast sort of ratings thing,

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Speaker 2: So please jump onto either Apple or wherever you get

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Speaker 2: your podcasts and leave a rating and review. It just

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Speaker 2: makes so much of a difference. Other than that, if

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Speaker 2: you'd like morefo about how we can make your family happier,

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Speaker 2: please jump onto our website Happyfamilies dot com dot au,

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Speaker 2: or you can find us on Instagram and on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: Dr Justin Colson's Happy Families. Oh by the way, a

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Speaker 2: quick note before we run tonight. If you're a Happy

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Speaker 2: Family's member, we've got the Q and A your questions

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Speaker 2: answered live by me via zoom. Please join us for that.

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Speaker 2: And on Monday we've got teams, tweens and screens a

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Speaker 2: webinar that is looking to be very very popular. Hope

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Speaker 2: to see there