1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Hello there. I am on holidays for a couple of weeks, 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: so I've hand pick some episodes that have been my 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: absolute favorites over the last two years to share with you. 4 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: I will be back with brand new episodes next week. 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: As a podcast maker, I try to have an active 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 1: and diverse podcast diet. I'll cycle through everything from true 7 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: crime to current affairs to comedy. But if some strange 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: rule came into being and I was only allowed to 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: listen to just one podcast, it would be Mamma Mia 10 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: out Loud. I started listening to it during the pandemic 11 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: and I never stopped. It's like listening to three really 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,919 Speaker 1: insightful and articulate girlfriends talk about stuff that's going on 13 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: in the world. It's like a guilty pleasure without the guilt. 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: So really it's just a pleasure and I'm definitely not alone. 15 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: As I'm recording this introduction. Mama Mia out Loud is 16 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: the fifth most popular show on the Apple Podcast charts 17 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: here in Australia, and their most recent episode is sitting 18 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: at number two in the episode charts, and another recent 19 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 1: episode is at number six, and there's another one at 20 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: number twenty four. So basically, Muma Mea Out Loud is 21 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: one of the most popular and most consistently popular podcasts running. 22 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: Part of the appeal is that the show comes out 23 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: three times a week, which sounds like an ungodly amount 24 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: of work, especially because the hosts are three incredibly busy women. 25 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: Mia Friedman's the co founder of the Muma Mea women's 26 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: media company, Holly Wayne Writes the head of content at 27 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: Muma Mia, and Jesse Stevens is Mumma MEA's executive editor. 28 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: All three of My guests also host other podcasts across 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: the Mumamea network, and all three are best selling authors. 30 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: So how do three of the busiest people on the 31 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,919 Speaker 1: planet pull themselves together to record three episodes about loud 32 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: per week plus two for subscribers. How do they decide 33 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: what they're going to talk about each time? And what 34 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: goes on behind the scenes of one of Australia's favorite podcasts. 35 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: My name is doctor Amantha Immer. I'm an organizational psychologist 36 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this 37 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,399 Speaker 1: is how I work, a show about how to help 38 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: you do your best work. It's easy to think that 39 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: all a podcast involves is just sitting in a studio 40 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: talking for the length of the episode, say forty minutes, 41 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: and then posting the sound files up onto the podcast 42 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: app that you are listening to this on right now. 43 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: But it's so much more than that, and I wanted 44 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: to know how do Maya, Holly and Jesse, three incredibly 45 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: busy women, manage to prep for and record three episodes 46 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: of Mama Maya out Loud every week, along with two 47 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: edition episodes every week that are just for Mom and 48 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: Meya subscribers. 49 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 2: On the day that we are releasing the show, we 50 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: get together and plan. Before that we will have already 51 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: exchanged several ideas digitally, so we know broadly what the 52 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 2: producer is going to bring to us and say we 53 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: should do this. So three times a week we sit 54 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 2: down in the studio or as we are today, remotely 55 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 2: from home and record the shows. So we record the 56 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: subscriber episodes usually on either a Monday or a Wednesday 57 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: in a block, but it depends because sometimes something exciting 58 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 2: will happen and we need to talk about it, so 59 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 2: will jump in and put that on the back of 60 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: another episode. But generally speaking on out Loud days, that's 61 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 2: our priority in our calendars. To put aside the time 62 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: to plan, prep and record. 63 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: So Maya, how do you decide on the topics because like, 64 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: some of the topics are very much front and center 65 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: in the news, whereas others seem to be random articles 66 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: that you guys have read. So how does that topic 67 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: selection happen? 68 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 3: I suppose the ultimate filter for us is the same 69 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 3: the same filter that mumum the website has, which is 70 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 3: what women are talking about today. And of course women 71 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 3: aren't just talking about the news, you know, and I 72 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 3: think that's something that we've always understood and really leaned into. 73 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 3: So women might be talking about a conversation, they've had, 74 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 3: a celebrity story, the election, or manner of things, and 75 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 3: so it has to be something that either we feel 76 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 3: like we want to talk about. I mean, that has 77 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 3: to be the first thing. At least one of us 78 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 3: has to be really excited about talking about it. There 79 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 3: are certain things that everyone expects us to talk about 80 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 3: if there's a story that's massively in the news, but 81 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 3: we always say, what can we bring to it? Because 82 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 3: we're not a news podcast, that's not what we do. 83 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 3: So we don't do explainers of what's happening in Ukraine 84 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 3: so we find and we'll find a way into talking 85 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 3: about Ukraine, and of course we will acknowledge it because 86 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 3: women are talking about it, but we won't try to 87 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 3: keep everybody across all the top stories of the day. 88 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 3: We've got another podcast called The Quiki that does that 89 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,799 Speaker 3: twice a day. It's our news podcast. And yeah, because 90 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 3: we've been working together for a really long time, we're 91 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 3: all very good at self editing as we go. Without 92 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 3: wanting to compare us to Oprah. I was once watching 93 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 3: Oprah Live when she was in Australia. I was in 94 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 3: the audience and watched Oprah Live and she wasn't I 95 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 3: was in the audience, she wasn't broadcasting live. It was 96 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 3: for a pre recorded show. But it was fascinating to 97 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 3: watch her because you could see her that there was 98 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 3: not a lot of fat. You could see her editing 99 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 3: as she spoke. She was thinking about how it was 100 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 3: going to be, how the package was going to be. 101 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 3: She would speak, you could just tell that she was 102 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 3: kind of self editing as she went. And I think 103 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 3: because the three of us are also editors, we're not 104 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 3: just writers. We know how to do that. So whether 105 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 3: it's editing our own thoughts making sure we give you 106 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 3: our wonderful producer Emma a good end line. We haven't 107 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 3: always been good at this, but we're better and better 108 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 3: at it, so it requires less and less editing. We 109 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 3: would like to think. 110 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: It's interesting what Mia was saying around how you're all 111 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: editors and you're kind of like you're working in your 112 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: podcast with sort of segments that seem to be maybe 113 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,799 Speaker 1: between about sort of six to eight minutes, And I guess, 114 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: how do you pace yourselves in terms of knowing how 115 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: quickly to get in and then how to get out 116 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: in time. 117 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 3: Where it's a work in progress. Holly and I have 118 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 3: a habit of saying the same thing a few times. 119 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 3: We're better at it now, but in a slightly different way. 120 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 3: So it's like we all thought of a better way 121 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 3: to say it exactly, whereas Jesse is much better at 122 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 3: just being concise about what she thinks and then moving on. 123 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 3: So our producer will always when we we can sometimes 124 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 3: get to a point in a topic where we'll just 125 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 3: be talking around and we'll all just be repeating ourselves, 126 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 3: and that's where she'll wind us up. But we sort 127 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 3: of naturally feel how long a segment is now. 128 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 4: And it's really awkward. 129 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 5: At the end of a segment to Holly will say 130 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 5: something and then we all know that we need to 131 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 5: take a beat where we just awkwardly look at each 132 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 5: other and let the silence fall. A lot of people 133 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 5: think the podcast is just having a prolonged conversation. 134 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 4: It isn't. No one wants to hear you, Meander, No 135 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 4: one wants to hear you. 136 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 5: Sort of bumble through something. I think they do want 137 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 5: to hear you think. But at the same time, we're 138 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 5: very aware of when something's beginning to lose steam and 139 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 5: you've just got to go okay. Me as having the 140 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 5: last line on that we can hear the ending coming 141 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 5: and we'll all just look at each other and go silent. 142 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 5: And that's not something we could do five four or 143 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 5: five years ago. I think through practice we've gotten much better. 144 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 2: We're not actually super strict on exactly how long every 145 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 2: segment needs to be, because, as both me and Jesse 146 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: were just saying, when you can feel the steam going 147 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: out of it, you pull away. But equally, when it's 148 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 2: great and it's getting more momentum and you can tell 149 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 2: this is a really good conversation. One of the beautiful 150 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 2: things about podcasts is we can lean into that and 151 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 2: let it go. It's not breakfast radio where you have 152 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 2: to explain something complicated in three minutes all you're out. 153 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 2: I mean, that's one of the things we really want 154 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: to be able to do is to be able to 155 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 2: pick apart things and lean into them when they're needed. 156 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 2: So it's like in real time we kind of have 157 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 2: to gauge how good we are. 158 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: And like, how do you do that? Sounds like a 159 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: stupid question, but like, how do you know how good 160 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: are you? Like, well, how do you know in all 161 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: serious how do you know if a segment's going well? 162 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: And you should be like, you know, continuing to like 163 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: go down that route. 164 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 5: Jessie, I think we are very honest with each other, 165 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 5: and we also protect each other, which has been a 166 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 5: real gift of the podcast. Something we'll slip out of 167 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 5: one of our mouth and we'll go careful with that phrase, 168 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 5: careful with that word, which can feel quite sometimes you 169 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 5: can feel very defensive at the time because that's not 170 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 5: how you meant it. But because we are editors and writers, 171 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 5: one shoe is that you're in the podcast speaking and 172 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 5: the other foot is in another shoe, which is the listener, 173 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 5: and so we're listening. As we go, we're getting incredible 174 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 5: feedback from an amazing producer who's saying that was interesting, 175 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 5: that wasn't. We take feedback really seriously. We get emails, 176 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 5: we get reviews. We have the out Louders group. They'll 177 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 5: tell us when we're crap, when we're not on our game, 178 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 5: we will get tenn email saying you're not on your game, Jesse, 179 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 5: you were flat mea terrible argument there, Holly, you're rambling, 180 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 5: they tell us, which is just fabulous, But we must 181 00:09:58,200 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 5: say I think we've left it in a few times 182 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 5: we'll finish a segment, we'll go we're so smart, and 183 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 5: then we just we look at each other, going, oh, 184 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 5: that was so good. 185 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,359 Speaker 2: Especially if we probably enjoyed it, because we do genuinely 186 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 2: love talking to each other. That sounds really cheesy, but 187 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 2: if the three of us are in the back of 188 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 2: a number or having dinner, we will we can't stop 189 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 2: ourselves from going on about whatever. Sometimes you know, we'll 190 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: be really feeling the enjoyment of that conversation, and so 191 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 2: we do just go, that was great. And sometimes you 192 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 2: look at Mspace, our producer and it's like was it though. 193 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 5: We're also very very data led, so our views of 194 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 5: whether something is working is a trajectory of a podcast 195 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 5: should always be you're accumulating more listeners and if you 196 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 5: are losing listeners, they didn't get something from the last 197 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 5: episode they wanted. 198 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 4: That's very clear. 199 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 5: We look at first day listens, we look at second 200 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 5: day listens, we look at week month, so stuck in 201 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 5: the data that I think we can tell, oh, you 202 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 5: know what, we've actually done too much election, We've done 203 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 5: too much COVID, And after this episode on the third 204 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 5: of April, people started to go, I'm going to give 205 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 5: it a break. And we've got, you know, an incredible 206 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 5: team that helps us interpret that data. But we're very 207 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 5: wedded to that and metrics. I think they're really helpful. 208 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: Something I'm always like, I always get quite excited about 209 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: when I listen to Mama Mia out Loud. Just the 210 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: interesting articles that you guys find from all over the world. 211 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: I'd love to know me or where, like, where are 212 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: your go to sources for finding great content that you 213 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: then explore on the show. 214 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 3: That's a great question. We're all just voraciously curious. I 215 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 3: think that's something that we share, and we're also When 216 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 3: I say widely read, I mean why read like. We 217 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: all cast our nets very wide in terms of what 218 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 3: we're interested in and the different places that will go. 219 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 3: I can't speak for Holly and Jesse, but I just 220 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 3: follow my nose, follow my curiosity. Obviously. I subscribe to IDM, 221 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 3: I subscribe to dms, I visit homepages. I don't get 222 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:29,239 Speaker 3: my content from social media, because well, I do occasionally, 223 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 3: but I just find that the algorithm is too limiting, 224 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,719 Speaker 3: and I don't want to outsource my news or my 225 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 3: content to meta. I would prefer to go hunt for 226 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 3: it rather than sit there and passively have an algorithm 227 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 3: serve it to me. 228 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: Which edms are your must read ones than maya? 229 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 3: The New York Times has a really great personalization feature, 230 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 3: which is an algorithm, and it's so listen to my hypocrisy, 231 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 3: but I find that it surfaces a good, you know, 232 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 3: variety of content. I also follow a number of different 233 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 3: substacks just by individual writers, and I try to make 234 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 3: sure I again cast it wide, So some of them 235 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 3: will be political, some of them will be sort of 236 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 3: social justice minded, some of them will be gossip minded. 237 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 3: You know, we're all very content agnostic in the content 238 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 3: that we consume. 239 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: How about you, Holly, do you have any favorite places. 240 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: I'm much more low brow than Jesse, and. 241 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: Like Meyas straddles both sides of the low and high, 242 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 2: so I'm often looking. I mean, obviously I follow EDMS too, 243 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 2: and I've got various that I love, but I also 244 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 2: will I will always also just look at the sort 245 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 2: of more tabloid news sites just to see what the 246 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: conversation is in terms of what the things are that 247 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 2: people are seeing and talking about. I will also, for 248 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 2: that same reason, usually have a bit of an ear 249 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 2: about what are people talking about on commercial radio, what 250 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 2: are people talking about on breakfast television. Jesse's more Twitter, 251 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: so she can often bring that perspective. But I think 252 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 2: it's important we want that mix of bringing these really 253 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 2: interesting gems that we do, but also kind of really 254 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 2: understanding what people are thinking and saying or hearing elsewhere 255 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 2: about a particular topic that we can maybe show another 256 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: side too. So I've always said, back from my journalism 257 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 2: training days, they used to be this. We had this 258 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 2: great tutor that I loved, and he used to tell 259 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: us every day read a tabloid and a broadsheet, read 260 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 2: a newspaper that you disagree with, and one that you 261 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 2: agree with. And obviously that's very much evolved from newspapers, 262 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: but I still very much hold that standard. There's no 263 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 2: news that's beneath me. I've got the obviously I've got 264 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: the context to know what's nonsense and what's not. But 265 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: I think it's really important to be consuming media that 266 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 2: you don't necessarily agree with or you don't even necessarily 267 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: respect that much, just to really understand what the diet 268 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: is that's out there that you can then help digest 269 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 2: to torture metaphor. 270 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: So Jesse, you're the highbrow one. I assume you're just 271 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: like hopping on Harvard Business Review every day and checking 272 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: out Journal of Applied Psychology and the Lives. 273 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 4: It's exactly right, Maya. As always. 274 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 5: I remember us having an intervention in editorial years ago 275 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 5: where Mea said that we were all fishing from the 276 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 5: same pond. Every single person was checking the same three 277 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 5: websites every day, and our views were far too limited. Yeah, 278 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 5: and our ideas went original and so. And there's a 279 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 5: lot you can do about that, which is hiring, you know, 280 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 5: a more diverse workforce, that's not just about you know, 281 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 5: whether it's it's gender or race or sexuality. 282 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 4: It's also about class. 283 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 5: It's also about political positions, and having a lot of 284 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 5: people come in from different context has helped with that 285 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 5: I've had since I started. I have a thing on 286 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 5: I like star websites that I really like, and so 287 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 5: my scan is very I will do the same scan 288 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 5: every day of say fifteen websites, and that might be 289 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 5: The Atlantic and the cart and I don't know Business 290 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 5: Insider or the Australian, which again, there are lots of 291 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 5: things that I don't agree with, but I like having 292 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 5: a sense of that. 293 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 4: I'll jump on Twitter. 294 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 5: The most recent one where I'm getting the best content 295 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 5: from is Bloody TikTok. 296 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 4: I get on TikTok. Yeah, and the stuff. 297 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 5: That will give you is really helpful. But I also 298 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 5: and I've thought about this. I used to walk to 299 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 5: work and as I walked, I would listen to things 300 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 5: and I would read things. But I realized that often 301 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 5: the best ideas I had, well, when I put my 302 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 5: phone away, I thought for ten minutes about what people 303 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 5: are talking about, what's the what's the broader thing. 304 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 4: We talk about? 305 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 5: A helicopter bird's eye view, like, yeah, everyone's talking about 306 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 5: the intricacies of amber heard, but what's the real conversation. 307 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 5: There's that, and then there's also walking to work or 308 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,959 Speaker 5: waiting for your coffee and taking your headphones out, and 309 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 5: you will get a sense within ten seconds of what 310 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 5: the conversation is. Yeah, and that's actually where the best 311 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 5: ideas come from, is that you know it'll be about like, oh, 312 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 5: what do I do? You know this is very specific 313 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 5: to today, but the biggest conversation is, hang on, if 314 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 5: I get COVID before Saturday, what am I going to do? 315 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 5: And with voting or whatever. I mean, that's the story 316 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 5: and leaning into what people are talking about is the 317 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 5: thing that has served us best. 318 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting what you're saying, Jesse, in terms 319 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: of giving yourself just that space and time to think 320 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: about what you think about something. And you guys mentioned 321 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: earlier the Holy Jesse. You guys do a bit of 322 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: prep in before recording. Miya not so much. 323 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 3: So. 324 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: I'd love to know like all your processes, Mia Yours 325 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: sounds very scary to me. How like have you have 326 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: you always been like that just sort of flying. 327 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 3: Possibly go wrong? Yes, Lucky, I've never ever made a 328 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 3: mistake of television before. Why do I do so little prep? 329 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 3: I'd love to say it's because I'm better than them, 330 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 3: but it's because I'm lazy. 331 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 5: You know what you do do Mia, and I'm going 332 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 5: to come in and defend you. Is it just then 333 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 5: when I was saying that we all that it's good 334 00:18:55,040 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 5: to have a think. Often what you'll you'll do is 335 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 5: is reflect a bit on it, and you'll come up 336 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 5: with a really interesting perspective. And it's because you actually 337 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 5: haven't consumed eleven things and you don't get stuck in 338 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 5: the weeds. And I think that's why you're often able 339 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 5: to articulate the sentiment of something because you reflect on it. 340 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 4: That's your prep. 341 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 3: Thank you, Yes, it's that's the reason. It's a little 342 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 3: bit similar to how I prep for No Filter, where 343 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 3: I just absorb things and then I need to metabolize them. 344 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 3: And I find that my worst interviews and my worst 345 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 3: shows are the ones where I prep too much for 346 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 3: because it does something to my brain where it becomes 347 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 3: I don't know, it loses some magic for me. So 348 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 3: I prefer to be able to react off Jesse and Holly, 349 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 3: so I'll always be the one in the planning meeting. 350 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 3: They will often like to get into an issue a 351 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 3: little bit, just to make sure that it's an interesting 352 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 3: enough topic for us to talk about, whereas I'll just 353 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 3: go stop kills the magic. And that's actually something I 354 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 3: learned from doing morning television or doing the project or 355 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 3: because they're very much not so much of the project, 356 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 3: but they very much try to stop that. Because when 357 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 3: you work with comedians, they don't like to be prepared. 358 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 3: They like to have that banter. 359 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: Jesse, You're the opposite on the prep front, is that right? 360 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 4: Yes? 361 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 5: Which is funny because MEA and I are both anxious, 362 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 5: but our anxiety manifests in very different ways. I need 363 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 5: to be prepared, and in fact, this has been my 364 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 5: fault that I've had to work back from, I think, 365 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 5: which is that over preparation kills spontaneity and kills podcasts. 366 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 5: But I have also believed very strongly, which is something 367 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,959 Speaker 5: that's drilled into you at Mumma, not to waste her 368 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 5: time and I want to make sure. This is the 369 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 5: best advice I got about podcasting was like, don't come 370 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 5: in eleven points, come in with one or two and 371 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 5: just know them, know your position on it. 372 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 3: Have said, just to be clear that her you're talking 373 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 3: about is not don't waste my time, it's don't waste 374 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 3: the time. 375 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, good clarification. 376 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 3: My time is very available to be wasted. I waste 377 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 3: everybody's time by being not prepared. 378 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 5: And that's my biggest fear is that we'll kind of 379 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 5: and when I say we, I don't worry about me 380 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 5: or and hotly doing it, but I worry that and 381 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 5: I've had this recently with having to do things live, 382 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 5: that I won't have anything to bring, anything meaningful or 383 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 5: important to bring to something, and everyone I'll go what 384 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 5: was the point in that. My biggest fear is that 385 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 5: I'll go blank, and I'll open my mouth and nothing 386 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 5: will come out. So I'm an over preparer who's constantly 387 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 5: putting myself in situations that challenge that and beat that 388 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 5: out of me. And it's also worth noting I'm also 389 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 5: the least experienced because I'm the youngest, I've been in 390 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 5: the industry for the least so from coming on to 391 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 5: this pod, I probably had a complex that was like, 392 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 5: You've got to work twice as hard to sound half 393 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 5: as good, which is why I've always I will go 394 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 5: into exam mode preparation before a podcast, where all like 395 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 5: read or I'll listen to something and I'll make notes 396 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 5: and immerse myself and I love working under that pressure. 397 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 5: That kind of lights me up. It's exam mode. 398 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: Now. Your producer is Emma Gillespie, who is on the 399 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: line listening to this interview. What does a producer do 400 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: for a podcast? 401 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 2: Oh, she saves us a lot of the time. So 402 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 2: the way that we work these days is that we 403 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 2: generally pitch our ideas to Emma and then Emma reflects 404 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 2: them back at us and says, you know, you all 405 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 2: seem to want to talk about this. I think this 406 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 2: is the most interesting bit, and then we push and 407 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 2: pull that. So she's curating the ideas. She obviously helps 408 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 2: us with preparation to a point as well, so she'll 409 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 2: make sure we've got our facts straight and that we've 410 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: got the audio texture as we call it for a show. 411 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 2: If we need a particular grab and all those things, 412 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 2: she'll go and get those. She also edits, She listens, 413 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 2: She tells us if we're screwing something up, she tells 414 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 2: us if we're going too long, and she also obviously 415 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 2: edits it pulls it all together and it makes us 416 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 2: all sound shiny and great. 417 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: Something that I started doing about a year and a 418 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: half ago with how I work. When I started working 419 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: with the wonderful Kelly Reardan as my I guess she's 420 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: kind of like the executive producer in a way is 421 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: we would do something called an air check or I 422 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: think that's the term taken from radio, where you'll do 423 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: the joyful taskable listening to yourself back. Oh, that's a 424 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: really nice way to spend a morning. 425 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 3: Can you do that with Kelly or just you do 426 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 3: it independently and then my notes. 427 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: I do both, not really to but semi regularly. I 428 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: would say that I do that with Kelly. I do 429 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: that fairly regularly. So we will meet once a month 430 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about the show and we will pick 431 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: a section from an interview and we will listen to 432 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: that together and Kelly, oh my gosh, it's like it's 433 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: equal parts just horrible and enlightening because it is amazing 434 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: to you know, and for those who have no idea 435 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: who Kelly Ridan is. She used to head up podcasts 436 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: at the ABC, and she's incredibly experienced when it comes 437 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: to podcasts, So it is amazing having someone of Kelly's 438 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: expertise listen and critique, and I feel like I've grown 439 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: so much as a host because of Kelly's feedback. Now, 440 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: I think, Jesse, you mentioned that you'll obviously get feedback 441 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: from listeners the out louders, but I'm curious what's the 442 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: feedback process between the three of you and also with 443 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: your producer Emma. 444 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 4: We do you get from producer Emma? We also have. 445 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 5: A role at the moment that is a lot of 446 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 5: air checks and also feedback generally about show structure, maybe ticks. 447 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 4: We have that kind of thing. 448 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 5: And then we have a head of podcasts that's also 449 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 5: listening out for a lot of that. So this happens 450 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 5: a lot as well at the beginning the birth of 451 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 5: a show. So I'm on another podcast called Canceled, which 452 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 5: is relatively new, and that's been so amazing to just 453 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 5: have a team of people who want that to be 454 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 5: as good as it can be and say, hey, the 455 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 5: way that that unfolded on Tuesday wasn't quite. 456 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 4: Right, here's why. 457 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 5: And I've do exactly the same thing, which has forced 458 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 5: myself to listen back, which can be excruciating but the 459 00:25:53,600 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 5: things you learn about your own crutches and and sometimes 460 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 5: it can be hard because then you get quite self 461 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 5: conscious when you go to speak, but you get you 462 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 5: get better and better. And I think that it's truefold 463 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 5: because you've got to do it and hear what you hear, 464 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 5: but you need someone else to also say, hey, you're 465 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 5: speaking yourself around in circles. You contradicted yourself in that segment, 466 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 5: whatever it is, and it can feel like a real 467 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 5: ego hit. It's a really hard thing to cop. When 468 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 5: I was quite early on in out layout, we had 469 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 5: the head of podcasts give me a call and basically 470 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 5: say here's a list. 471 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 4: And it was lovely. It was the kindest thing, was 472 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 4: that list? 473 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 3: Oh my god, it was worse when you were saying 474 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 3: heteronormative all the time. 475 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 2: Yes, it was using long words. 476 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 4: A lot, yes, exactly. 477 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 3: And I was everything was problematic. 478 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 4: Everything was problematic. 479 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 5: I was new, I was green, I was trying to impress, 480 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 5: and there were things that I was doing that would 481 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 5: have been really irritating as a listener. She didn't put 482 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 5: it like that, but she also didn't, you know, pretend 483 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 5: she was giving me a compliment. It was the kindest 484 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 5: thing she could have possibly done and improved my career exponentially, 485 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 5: and it would have been a really uncomfortable conversation for her. 486 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 5: And I've just been so grateful for anyone who, you know, 487 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 5: has the bravery to sit down with talent and say, 488 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 5: if you fix A, B and C, you'll be brilliant. 489 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 4: It's terrified. 490 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 3: I think it's challenging also because Holly and I in particular, 491 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 3: we're the bosses, so we are often in charge of 492 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 3: the people who were giving us feedback, so the power 493 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 3: imbalance can feel quite difficult for those people. But Jesse 494 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 3: mentioned our head of podcasts, Eliza Ratliffe. She's still the 495 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 3: executive producer out that, but she used to be our 496 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 3: producer and before that she was my EA, so she's 497 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 3: got long history with us, and I think she, more 498 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 3: than anyone else in our business, can give us very 499 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 3: unfiltered you know. She pulls no punches, and I love 500 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 3: that because I crave that feedback and there aren't enough 501 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 3: people who feel comfortable enough in our business to give 502 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 3: that to me, and she's probably one of them. 503 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: We will be back soon talking about how the team 504 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: selects guest hosts when one of them is on holiday 505 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: and how they go about making them seamlessly fit into 506 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: the show. And we'll also be talking about how they 507 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: role model respectful disagreement. If you're looking for more tips 508 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: to improve the way you work and live, I write 509 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: a weekly newsletter where I share practical and simple to 510 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: apply tips to improve your life. You can sign up 511 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: for that at Amantha dot substack dot com. That's Amantha 512 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: dot substack dot com. That's something that I've always very 513 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: impressed with this when you have guests, because you guys 514 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: are not working fifty two weeks a year, which which 515 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: is I find quite sad because I really like the 516 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: combination of you three. 517 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 2: We have to really try work hard to stop me 518 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 2: from working fifty two weeks. 519 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 3: Yes, say true fifty three if I could. 520 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: Thank God for Byron Bay. But you, I feel like, 521 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: whenever you've got a guest host, it's really seamless, and 522 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: I'd love to know, firstly, how do you go about 523 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: choosing those guest hosts. 524 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 5: We have people that we've put forward that we've worked 525 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,959 Speaker 5: with for a long time. Susan Carland we've worked with 526 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 5: for a long time, and then we'll have, like you know, 527 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 5: sometimes a wish list or we'll go. 528 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 4: We know that our. 529 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 5: Perspectives are limited, so sometimes we'll think it would great, 530 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 5: it would be great to have someone on the show 531 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 5: who doesn't have kids, or who isn't married, or who's 532 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 5: in a same sex relationship or something. We try really 533 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 5: hard with briefing them and letting them know the structure 534 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 5: of the show so that they feel safe, and getting 535 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 5: the rhythm with them, which is really hard over a 536 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 5: screen because sometimes there's a delay and you can feel 537 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 5: like you've just not quite got the pace and the 538 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 5: understanding and. 539 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 4: The rapport that you might need. 540 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 5: But yeah, we've had a bunch of different hosts and 541 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 5: hopefully we do, you know, and we don't think too 542 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 5: much about it. But I think that it's a lot 543 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 5: about the relationship that's built before you get on the mic, 544 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 5: and making them feel really safe and that you're not 545 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 5: out to get them, and that this is relatively it's 546 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 5: often a lot more loose than what they do regularly, 547 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 5: which is radio or television, And we say you've got 548 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 5: more time, there's a lot more room for nuance, and 549 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 5: our producer and our team have your back, and I 550 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 5: think that makes them feel safe. 551 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: I was going to ask how you go about building 552 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: rapport with them, particularly when like the other two of 553 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: you who are there with the guest host haven't worked 554 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: with them, you know, when one of you hasn't worked 555 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: with them before, or both of you haven't worked with 556 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: them before. So what does that process look like. 557 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 2: Well, the producer is obviously is in contact with them 558 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 2: from an earlier stage about as Jesse said, it will 559 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 2: often be somebody that we know in some capacity, or 560 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: that we've seen and loved their work in some capacity, 561 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 2: so and we'll be in touch with them early on 562 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 2: to talk about the process and how it is. Because 563 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 2: the thing is interesting. I love the fact that you 564 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 2: say it sounds so seamless, because it's actually a very 565 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 2: difficult thing to do. To come into this this threesome 566 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 2: of them, and. 567 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 3: After they're a listener, they're an out louder, so they 568 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 3: come in with ideas and thoughts, or they might feel 569 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,719 Speaker 3: a little bit intimidated or self conscious. So the two 570 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 3: og hosts that are working with the guest we have 571 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 3: to do a lot more heavy lifting them when it's 572 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 3: the three of us obviously, to make them feel comfortable, I. 573 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: Would imagine something that is quite scary or maybe I'm 574 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: just projecting my own fears here onto like being you know, 575 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: regularly talking about your opinions on topics and you've got 576 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: all these out louders who are also very opinionated. Is 577 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: ending up on Jesse's podcast canceled, Like, how do you 578 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: deal with that? Me? Yeah, You've you've probably had a 579 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: lot of experience, like you. 580 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 3: Know, being canceled. 581 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Like how do you think about that in 582 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: terms of what you express on the show. 583 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 3: So one of the interestingly, I don't write anymore really 584 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 3: except for Mum and me as subscribers, and I don't 585 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 3: do any TV anymore at all because of the threat 586 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 3: of cancelation, and because you know, I have a responsibility 587 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 3: as well. I'm the co owner of a business that 588 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 3: employs more than one hundred women. So if I were 589 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 3: to say something that was either offensive inadvertently or not, 590 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 3: or if I was to get into a cancelation situation, 591 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 3: that could be detrimental to so many people. But what 592 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 3: I've realized is that people hate watch TV, they hate read, 593 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 3: but they don't hate listen, and so not always, but 594 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 3: mostly you have also we have a degree of control 595 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 3: because it's not live and we have a producer and 596 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 3: each other to watch our backs, and we're very mindful 597 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 3: of this every time we put something out, but ultimately 598 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,719 Speaker 3: people are lazy and cancel culture usually comes from someone 599 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 3: taking something out of context. And one of the most 600 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 3: difficult things for podcasters is that it's quite hard to 601 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 3: share a podcast. You can't share a segment of a podcast, 602 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 3: and that's something that is a curse and a blessing 603 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 3: because it makes discoverability more difficult. It means that it 604 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 3: can't be easily shared on Twitter, which is where people 605 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 3: get canceled generally. 606 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 2: We also, obviously, you know, working in the industries that 607 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 2: we've all worked in for years now, we're very aware 608 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 2: of hot button issues, dangerous places to go, topics that 609 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 2: we really should not we do not have a position 610 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 2: to discuss. So and also one of the things that 611 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 2: we all feel deeply is none of us want a 612 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 2: show that people just shouting outrageous opinions at each other. 613 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 2: That's not what we're there for. So we work hard 614 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: to make sure that we're representing different viewpoints and that 615 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 2: we disagree with each other, but respectful disagreement is our obsession. 616 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 2: And I think you're also setting a certain tone when 617 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 2: you do that. So as much as we have each 618 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 2: other's back in terms of, as I think Mia said 619 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 2: earlier or Jesse said earlier, if you maybe something slipped 620 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 2: out of your mouth that could be missing, misconstrued. We're 621 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 2: all very good at catching that, as is our producer, 622 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 2: and the show goes through two sets of ears before 623 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,399 Speaker 2: it goes out. But we also we're not interested in 624 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 2: just stirring up culture wars. 625 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 3: That's not the episode that we'll avoid that if we can. 626 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 5: I think that the fear for me has become and 627 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 5: we had this discussion relatively recently, how do you still 628 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 5: take how do you still take positions on things and 629 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 5: reflect what women are talking about while not getting yourself canceled. 630 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 5: If you are too worried about what people think, do 631 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,720 Speaker 5: not get into podcasting, because you can say the most 632 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 5: innocuous things sometimes and be absolute, really rile people up, 633 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 5: and you've just got to cop that. And often I'll 634 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 5: say something and a producer will say, you know, that 635 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 5: might upset a few people, or that there's a group 636 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 5: of people who are not going to be happy you 637 00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 5: said that, and I'll have a think and go is 638 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 5: worth saying? And I think that's a really hard thing 639 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 5: to do because I've seen a lot of podcasts where 640 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 5: people share opinions and perspectives go in the direction of 641 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 5: you've actually spent forty minutes not saying anything because you're 642 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,879 Speaker 5: so terrified of what the response will be. So that's 643 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 5: still important to have those debates. And I think often 644 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 5: in the planning meeting will go I'll say this, but 645 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 5: I think we also have to present X opinion in 646 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 5: order for this to be a well rounded, informative conversation, 647 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 5: and we'll carefully produce that. But yeah, I'm aware of that. 648 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 5: But there are some issues that I go, I feel 649 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 5: passionately about this. I believe in it. If I get 650 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,439 Speaker 5: one hundred hate emails, it will have been worth it. 651 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 2: But I think that that's the key is is it 652 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 2: worth it and it's not worth it just so that 653 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 2: you feel like you said something clever, you know what 654 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 2: I mean? And Jesse is very is smart enough as 655 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 2: we all are, to kind of being able to self 656 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 2: curate those issues to a point where you're like, this is, 657 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 2: as you say, a conversation worth having. This is just 658 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 2: poking a bear. 659 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, Holly, you mentioned respectful disagreement. How how do you 660 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: role model that. 661 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 2: I think I like to think we do it well. 662 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 2: There are a few issues that we can be guaranteed 663 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 2: to disagree about, and the argument will spill from the 664 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 2: studio to the kitchen, to the uber, to the to 665 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 2: the to wherever we're going to next, the next meeting. 666 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 2: We're in some pourts so and so some poor person 667 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 2: will have to listen that to us continue that argument. 668 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 2: But I think that the fundamental we all have a 669 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 2: great deal of respect for each other anyway, so we 670 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 2: genuinely want to hear each other's points of view. It's 671 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 2: really essential to us that we can model that you 672 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 2: can disagree and pick people up on things that you 673 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 2: disagree with or that they've got wrong or whatever that 674 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 2: might be still walk away friends. It's the thing that 675 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 2: out louders tell us they like the most. But that 676 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 2: is very much about not getting personal, not playing people 677 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 2: instead of issues. And I think also, and it was 678 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 2: an out louder who pointed this out to me, actually 679 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 2: is she said, you might disagree about things, but you 680 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 2: share values. And I think that's true. And I know 681 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 2: values is something that's just thrown around a lot, and 682 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 2: there's a lot of shades of gray in the way 683 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 2: we all feel about certain issues, but none of us 684 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 2: are holding deep Trumpian views about you know, women or 685 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 2: immigration or whatever it might be. We come from a 686 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 2: base of shared value, I think, and then we dance 687 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 2: around on top of that with our disagreements, but we 688 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 2: all genuinely respect each other's point of view. I don't 689 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 2: think you can fake that. 690 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 3: But the irony of this, Amantha, is that that's just 691 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 3: reflective of real life. Like it's only on the Internet 692 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 3: that people say things like I don't agree with everything 693 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 3: that you say, but I really liked that point you 694 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 3: made about blah blah. In real life, everybody that we love, 695 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 3: our friends, our partners, our children, our parents, we have 696 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 3: loads of things that we disagree with them about, but 697 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 3: we don't write them off as people or cancel them. 698 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 3: The only place that happens is the internet. And I 699 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 3: think that you know, our Holly is completely right about 700 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 3: we do share values. But the most interesting times for 701 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,280 Speaker 3: us are the times where there's the grain of sand 702 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 3: in the oyster, you know, like for example, j Long 703 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 3: at the Super Bowl. 704 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 2: We will never stop arguing. 705 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: I'll take you on now again. 706 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 3: For around forty five we had very very different views 707 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 3: about that, and that might seem so small, but really 708 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 3: they were about much bigger issues around feminism. But that 709 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 3: just happened to be the lens through which we will 710 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 3: looking looking at something was quite different looking at the 711 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 3: same sort of cultural moment. So yeah, for us, that's 712 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,439 Speaker 3: what keeps it exciting. We love it when we find 713 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 3: something to do. 714 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 2: We do, but it's really but you know that episodes 715 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,439 Speaker 2: I hate the most are the ones where I feel 716 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 2: like I've lost my call, Like sometimes you do, you 717 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 2: get too emotional and I and you know, I'll never 718 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,359 Speaker 2: forget as a mother the argument we had about that 719 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 2: years ago. 720 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,439 Speaker 1: No phrase, we just get that up again. 721 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 4: That's always fun. 722 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,800 Speaker 2: It's the phrase as a mother that Jesse was saying 723 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 2: that mothers use all the time to then justify why 724 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 2: they know better about all the things. And I got 725 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 2: very emotional in that conversation. And every time my voice 726 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 2: gets screechy and I lose Michael, and then I just 727 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 2: feel awful for days. 728 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:47,840 Speaker 1: But why do you feel awful? 729 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 4: I loved it. 730 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,880 Speaker 2: I loved it in the end, but I just don't 731 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 2: want I just don't like that. I don't like that. 732 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 2: I love debate, but I don't like debate when it 733 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 2: gets like that. 734 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 5: I think, Holly as well, you said about that discussion, 735 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 5: which is a very fine line that we sometimes toe, 736 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 5: is that when a woman is giving us forty minutes 737 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 5: of her time, we don't want her to take her 738 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,800 Speaker 5: headphones out and feel worse about herself. 739 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 2: No, I did. 740 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:17,439 Speaker 1: That's a good point. 741 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 5: Did that discussion make a woman who would use that 742 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 5: term feel like shit or like? We don't want to 743 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 5: create division for the sake of creating division. And so 744 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 5: that's why the structure of the show can be important, 745 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 5: is you can have a discussion like that and then 746 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,439 Speaker 5: come back in the next segment and have a big 747 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,399 Speaker 5: laugh and go, this is an exchange of ideas. This 748 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 5: isn't pitting people against each other. It's a careful, careful line. 749 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,279 Speaker 1: I think, well, when I listened to MoMA Mia out Loud, 750 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 1: I definitely feel better about myself. And I was thinking, like, 751 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: in preparation for this interview, like if I like, if 752 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, there was all that was cast on 753 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: me and I could only listen to one podcast like 754 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 1: for the rest of my life, like or let's just 755 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: say the next month it would be Mama Maya out Loud. 756 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,279 Speaker 1: I listen to a lot of different podcasts, but I 757 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: just I feel such joy when I have you three 758 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: in my ears. It's been so just like wonderful to 759 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 1: speak to you all and understand the process that goes 760 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 1: on behind it. I normally finish these interviews by asking 761 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 1: how can people connect with you? Which I will in 762 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: a moment obviously. I mean, you would have just had 763 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: the volume turned down really low to not know that 764 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 1: we've been talking about Mama Mia out loud. And you 765 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 1: can get that wherever you listen to your podcast. But 766 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 1: what is that cover back? Can you get a pro? So? 767 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 1: How can listeners connect with the three of you? 768 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 4: Holly? 769 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: How can how can people connect with you? 770 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 2: Well? Obviously I write and work at Mamma Mia. But 771 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 2: the best, my favorite of the social media platforms is Instagram, 772 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 2: so you can always find me there, Wayne Wright, Holly, 773 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 2: That's who I am. 774 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: On Jesse, how about you? 775 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 4: Yeah? Instagram as well. 776 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 5: I'm Jesse Stevens on Instagram, and I've also got another 777 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 5: Instagram with my twin sister where we do a lot 778 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 5: of chats about Cancel, the other podcast that we do, 779 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 5: and my writing is every time I can do it 780 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 5: on Mama, Maya and Maya. 781 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 3: I'm also an Instagram girl just at mea Friedman and 782 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,320 Speaker 3: I have got a newsletter that you can subscribe to 783 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 3: by going to Meafriedman dot com, where you will find my. 784 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 1: Writing Amazing ladies like I feel like ladies. That sounds 785 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: so old fashioned, but anyway, I feel like I've just 786 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,400 Speaker 1: been talking with three friends, even though we're not like. 787 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:46,759 Speaker 1: I feel like you're my friends because I hear you 788 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 1: every day almost on my headphone. So thank you so 789 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 1: much for spending the time with me. 790 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 2: Thank you, Amantha, Thank you for having us well. 791 00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: This interview was such a joy to do. Listen to 792 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 1: a couple of episodes after conducting this interview. It's been 793 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 1: really interesting listening to it with the craft that all 794 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 1: three women bring to it. In the back of my mind, 795 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 1: they make it look so easy sharing their opinions on 796 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: all sorts of things going on in the world. But 797 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 1: that apparent ease, I think, really only comes when you 798 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,759 Speaker 1: have spent years honing your craft. If you're enjoying how 799 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: I work, maybe you might want to leave a review 800 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,800 Speaker 1: for the show in Apple Podcasts, or if you're listening 801 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 1: to this from simply click on the stars or write 802 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:38,359 Speaker 1: a comment. It's wonderful getting feedback from listeners, so thank 803 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,759 Speaker 1: you in advance if you've left feedback, or if you 804 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: plan to do so today. How I Work is produced 805 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 1: by Inventing, with production support from Dead Set Studios. The 806 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 1: producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you 807 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 1: to mit Nimba who does the audio mix for every 808 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: episode and makes everything sound so much better than it 809 00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: would have otherwise. See you next time.