1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:03,279 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcottin woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Daily os It's Sam. Welcome 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 2: to tda's summer series. I hope you're having a nice 9 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,319 Speaker 2: couple of weeks over summer, whether you're working, taking some 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 2: time off, headed to a music festival, or just you know, 11 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 2: hanging out with family and friends. This week, we're going 12 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 2: to share more of our favorite deep dives from twenty 13 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 2: twenty three, from some of our most popular interviews to 14 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 2: some stories you might have missed. I guess we're trying 15 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 2: to keep your company here over the summer. We'll be 16 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: back to some regular programming next week. Until then, here 17 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 2: is our summer series. 18 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 3: Singapore is considering laws that would ban cancel culture in 19 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 3: the country. When you think of someone being canceled, Nina, 20 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 3: who do you think of? 21 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 4: I'm going to deflect and say I asked the office 22 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 4: and they said Harvey Weinstein and James Charles. 23 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 3: Yes, so tell me who James Charles is. I don't 24 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 3: know whomes Charles is very up with the kids. But 25 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 3: I mean, those are two of the cases of cancel 26 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 3: culture that I think we often think of, or we 27 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 3: immediately think of when we talk about this topic. But 28 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 3: today we're talking about something a bit different. In Singapore's case, 29 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 3: it's being used by religious organizations who fear they're going 30 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 3: to be silenced if the country becomes too secular. So 31 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 3: it all comes back to some debates relating to LGBTQI 32 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 3: rights in the country in Singapore. 33 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 4: For people who don't know what kind of a place 34 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 4: is Singapore. 35 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 3: It's generally considered a socially conservative country. It was only 36 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 3: at the end of last year that the country decriminalized homosexuality. 37 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 3: I remember when we covered it and I was just 38 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 3: so shocked that it was still in place. 39 00:01:58,880 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 4: It's still a thing. 40 00:01:59,640 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 5: Yeah. 41 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 3: For decades, Singapore's government had preserved the controversial three seven 42 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 3: seven A law, and that law bans sex between two men. 43 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 3: While the rule hasn't necessarily been enforced for about fifteen years, 44 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 3: it was still part of the nation's laws, and that 45 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 3: makes me think of, for example, abortion laws here in Australia. 46 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 3: That it was still in the criminal code in a 47 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 3: lot of states until recently, but wasn't necessarily being enforced. 48 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 3: But Singapore, by no means was the last country to 49 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 3: decriminalize homosexuality. To this day, there are still at least 50 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 3: sixty seven nations that criminalize same sex intercourse. 51 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 4: So to come back to Singapore, can you just explain 52 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 4: how it actually got overturned eventually? 53 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it took decades of activists and lawyers 54 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 3: pushing for the repeal of three seven seven A. It 55 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 3: had been challenged in the Singaporean Parliament and courts as 56 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 3: being unconstitutional, specifically for breaching an article in the Constitution 57 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 3: that guarantees equal protection under the law. It actually faced 58 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 3: so many challenges over the years and came close to 59 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 3: being overturned so many times that last year the government 60 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 3: announced a review of the law and eventually it's repeal. 61 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 3: This is the PM of Singapore, Le Sien Lung, making 62 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 3: the announcement. 63 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 6: The government will repeal section three seven seven A and 64 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 6: decriminalize sex between men. I believe this is the right 65 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 6: thing to do and something that most Singaporeans will now accept. 66 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 4: So the Prime Minister made that big announcement, you would 67 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 4: imagine there would be a big sense of celebration from LGBTQI, 68 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 4: writes groups in Singapore. 69 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 3: Was that the case, Yeah, I mean there was this 70 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 3: real sense of victory. They'd been calling for the repeal 71 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 3: of this law for so long, and I think characterized 72 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 3: it as this triumph of love over fear. But with 73 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 3: any issue, there are two sides, And on the other hand, 74 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 3: there was pushback. Singapore is a religious country and there 75 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 3: were many parts of the community who were extremely opposed 76 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 3: to the repeal of this law. The National Council of 77 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 3: Churches of Singapore, the Catholic Archbishop, and Islamic authorities all 78 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 3: made these public statements against the law being repealed. In particular, 79 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 3: some religious groups expressed concern that repealing the law would 80 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 3: lead to a general shift towards secularism and away from religion. 81 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 3: And again, this isn't a new idea. I think a 82 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 3: lot of countries around the world have had to grapple 83 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 3: with this issue. We did with the plebiscite, Yeah, exactly, 84 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 3: And it feels like those religious groups really lobbied hard 85 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 3: because when announcing the repeal of three thirty seven A, 86 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 3: the Prime Minister of Singapore also announced a proposed amendment 87 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 3: to the Constitution that would enshrine the institution of marriage 88 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 3: as only between a man and a woman. So I mean, 89 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 3: on the one hand, they've decriminalized sex between two men, 90 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 3: but at the very same time they've also entrenched marriage 91 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 3: as between a man and a woman. In his speech, 92 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 3: the PM said that while repealing this law would provide 93 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 3: relief to LGBTQI Singaporeans, most Singaporeans did not want its 94 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,799 Speaker 3: repeal to trigger a drastic shift in societal morms. 95 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 6: We will therefore protect the definition of marriage from being 96 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 6: challenged constitutionally in the courts, to retain the basic family 97 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,679 Speaker 6: structure of marriage between a man and a woman within 98 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 6: which we have and raise our children. 99 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 4: So, Zara, you've painted a picture about how Singapore is 100 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 4: having these really challenging conversations culturally and religiously on many 101 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 4: levels about LGBTQI rights in the country. How does cancel 102 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 4: culture come into any of this. 103 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 3: So it comes into what I was saying before that 104 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 3: with the repealing of this law, there was concern within 105 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 3: religious groups that the country was moving towards too much 106 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 3: of a secular future, and as a result of that, 107 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 3: some groups worried that cancel culture would stop them freely 108 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 3: expressing views on things like sex, gender, and marriage without 109 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: being silent. 110 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 4: The religious groups are worried that they'll be silenced. 111 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 3: Correct, yes, that with this new Singapore that you know, 112 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 3: sex between two men is no longer criminalized. They were 113 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 3: concerned that if they voiced opposition to that publicly, that 114 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 3: they would be canceled. A Bloomberg journalist put this to 115 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 3: Singapore's Minister of Law and Home Affairs, asking if Singapore 116 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 3: would consider passing a law to stop so called cancel culture. 117 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 3: And this is what he said. 118 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 5: This is an issue that has concerned does not just 119 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 5: in the context of debates or arguments about three seven 120 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 5: seven A or you know, sexual maris, but on a 121 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 5: wide variety of issues. And if we find the right solutions, yes, 122 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 5: that should be something that we could see in her legislation. 123 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 4: So canceling cancel culture isle in Singapore. Is it even 124 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 4: possible to legislate against cancel culture? How would it govern 125 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 4: and even go about doing that? 126 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 3: I mean, my instinctive response is with great difficulty. It 127 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 3: would be an incredibly hard thing to legislate, and when 128 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 3: we're talking about this Singapore example, no laws have actually 129 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 3: been formally drafted. But because we're hearing about kind of 130 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 3: rumblings of this and there have been some proposals put 131 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 3: on the table, we thought we'd put our questions to 132 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 3: a partner at a Singaporean law firm. He said that 133 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 3: he isn't aware of any other jurisdiction in the world 134 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 3: that's considering something like a law ban and cancel culture, 135 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 3: and that it would be really difficult to pull off. 136 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 3: For one, he said that there'd be difficulty even defining 137 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 3: what cancel culture is. I think if we think about 138 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 3: the examples that we used at the beginning, like a 139 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 3: Harvey Wine scene situation versus an influencer being canceled. 140 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 4: Versus a religious organization in Singapore, there's a. 141 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 3: Huge spectrum, like there are convictions against one and just 142 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 3: beliefs held against another, and that is something that would 143 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 3: prove an obstacle I think in legislating against cancel culture. 144 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 3: But another issue if we think about this Singaporean example, 145 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 3: is that oftentimes pylons and cancel culture happen on the 146 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 3: internet and it would be really difficult to distinguish between 147 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: social media content that originates from Singapore, that's in Singapore, 148 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 3: and then of course content that is made overseas. And 149 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 3: if we're only legislating against Singaporeans who are bound by 150 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 3: Singaporean law, what about all those people that applying on 151 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 3: from Australia. 152 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 4: But also that just the nature of the Internet, you 153 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 4: take one thing down, ten things pop out. 154 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's a vacuum. But I think if 155 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 3: Singapore does move to legislate against this, it would lead 156 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 3: to an incredible precedent that I mean, I don't know 157 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 3: how other governments would respond to it. There would be 158 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 3: huge free speech implications and it would be fascinating to 159 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 3: see what would happen in the age of the Internet. 160 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 4: I have a question for you, Zarah. Excellent because I 161 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 4: know that we're talking about this in a very specific 162 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 4: context which you've laid out, and it's so unique to 163 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 4: the history of Singapore. In Singapore's LGBTQI writes, but I 164 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 4: am wondering, having thought about this now, and having even 165 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 4: thought about the prospect of cancel culture being canceled, do 166 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 4: you feel like we should be considering regulating cancel culture 167 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 4: here in Australia. 168 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 3: Okay, well, you deflected an earlier question, so I'm deflecting 169 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 3: for you to answer that because I want to know. 170 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 3: I want to know what you think there's. 171 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 4: I've had lots of different interesting conversations about this over 172 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 4: the years. 173 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 3: You do strike me as someone that thinks deeply about 174 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 3: cancel culture. 175 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 4: I think, initially, and I still to some degree, believe 176 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 4: this that in instances where historically groups of people or 177 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 4: just individuals have been ignored or have not had a 178 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 4: place at the table, have not had an opportunity to 179 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 4: speak a platform, cancel culture does provide a unique way 180 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 4: of rebalancing things and actually taking down high profile people, 181 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 4: and that's really powerful and I don't think that should 182 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 4: be forgotten. However, the idea of taking the conversation off 183 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 4: the table altogether and shutting it down never seems healthy. 184 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 4: You're a person with the profile, Zarah, Do you worry 185 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 4: about being canceled? 186 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 3: I think that it is a force for good in 187 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 3: so many ways that it makes you consider a lot 188 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 3: of different perspectives. Like you said that, like otherwise, we're 189 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 3: not being considered, we're not being respected. I do think 190 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 3: though we do get to a point where we will 191 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 3: not entertain any healthy discussion, any healthy debate. I started 192 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 3: a media organization. I want people to be talking about 193 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 3: their opinions. I want people to have educated opinions and 194 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 3: to feel really comfortable in being able to debate that 195 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 3: and defend their position. I think where that crosses over 196 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 3: into hate speech, I absolutely do not condone, but I 197 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 3: think there is a space before then though that firstly 198 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 3: I think should exist and allows for healthy scrutiny without 199 00:10:51,800 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 3: ridding people of the chance to learn. Thanks for joining 200 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 3: us on the Daily OS. If you learned something from 201 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 3: today's episode, don't forget to hit subscribe so there's a 202 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 3: TVA episode waiting for you every weekday morning, Have a 203 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 3: brilliant day.