1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: Today's episode is another my favorite tip episode where I 2 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: go back to interviews from the past and I dig 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: out the thing that was my favorite tip, like the 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: thing that I got out of the interview that really 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: impacted or resonated with me. This extract is from my 6 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: chat with Professor Scott Sannenshein. Scott is a New York 7 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: Times bestselling author and professor of management at Rice University. 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: I came across Scott's work a few months ago now 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: when I read his second book, Joy at Work. Scott 10 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: wrote Joy at Work with best selling author and Netflix 11 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: star Murray Kondo, who's cleaning methods I have used in 12 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: my own home over the years and maybe you have too. 13 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: In Joy at Work, Scott and Marie offers story studies 14 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: and strategies to help you eliminate clutter and make space 15 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: for work that really Matt. Now, I pulled two extracts 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: out of my chat with Scott. There was just so 17 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: much great stuff in the full interview and in this 18 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: my favorite tip episode, we look at decision making. So 19 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: in this chat, Scott offers a bunch of strategies to 20 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: help you make significantly better decisions. So let's head on 21 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: over to Scott. 22 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 2: So there's lots of different estimates about the number of 23 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 2: decisions that we make, and I, quite frankly, I can't 24 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 2: count all of the decisions that I make, and that's 25 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: part of the problem that we have is just a 26 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 2: sense of decision overloads. So what I like to recommend 27 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 2: to people is we've got to go through a sorting 28 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: process first, because there are just thousands of decisions that 29 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: most people are going to make on a daily basis, 30 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: even though studies show we really only remember about one 31 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: hundred of them, so we're not even conscious of a 32 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 2: lot of decisions that we make. So I like to 33 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 2: I like to segment decisions into, you know, different levels 34 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 2: of important. So you've got smaller, low stakes decisions, medium 35 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: steaks decisions, and high stakes decisions. And I like to 36 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: separate and say for the small decisions, these are the 37 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 2: ones that you either want to just get them done 38 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 2: and not think much about them. So you know, this 39 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 2: is going to vary by the type of job that 40 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: you have naturally, but for me, for example, the type 41 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 2: of copy paper or printer paper I have, or the 42 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: type of font I use in a paper, or the 43 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: type of font I use in the PowerPoint presentation. Those 44 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: are small stakes decisions for me. They are not going 45 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: to have a material impact on the quality or effectiveness 46 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 2: of my work, so I don't think about them. I just, 47 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 2: you know, default to what I always do. So I'm 48 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 2: always going to write, for example, in New Times Roman 49 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 2: when I'm doing a word duff. Those are small decisions. 50 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 2: In other types of context, you might want to automate 51 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: those decisions, so you know, even on a personal level, 52 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 2: a lot of my monthly purchases of supplies for the 53 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 2: house come through automatic subscription services, so I don't have 54 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: to think about what I need every month. It just 55 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: shows up at my door every month, so I don't 56 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 2: have to be burthened with an extra set of decisions. 57 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 2: Do I want to buy this? Do I not want 58 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: to buy that? It just happens automatically. So I think 59 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 2: the first part is to just cut down because a 60 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: majority of our decisions fall into those low stakes decisions, 61 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 2: so let's automate them, let's not think about them. In 62 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: some cases, we might also delegate them to those who 63 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: might derive more meaning or more satisfaction, or it's more 64 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 2: important for the type of job they have. Let them 65 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: make those decisions. Then you can focus on the more 66 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 2: important ones, the medium stakes and the high stakes decisions, 67 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: and you can dedicate your limited energy on trying to 68 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 2: make better decisions in those areas. So that's the first 69 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: step is really the try and offload the small decisions, 70 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: focus on the medium and the large stakes decisions. The 71 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: next step is to then think about how are you 72 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 2: going to structure those decisions. And we have an intuition 73 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 2: that you give me more choices, I'm going to have 74 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 2: a better set of results. But there's actually a rich 75 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 2: body in the psychology literature about how choice can be 76 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 2: really overwhelming and can do some disruptive things to us. 77 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 2: So one, it takes more time to process through the choices, 78 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: but two, we tend to be less satisfied when we 79 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: have a lot of choices because we think about, well, 80 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 2: I picked, I made this decision, but I could have 81 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 2: went the other way, and maybe I have some regrets 82 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 2: and I have decision decision regret. Maybe I didn't make 83 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 2: the best choice, and you start second guessing yourself. So 84 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: another part of my decision making process is to try 85 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 2: and whittle down choices. So if someone comes to me 86 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 2: and says, hey, I want your your insight, and I 87 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: want you to make a decision about you know, whether 88 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 2: or not you know where we should For example, you 89 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 2: know this have this class, what type of what type 90 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: of room do we want? And I'm going to always say, 91 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 2: you know, I don't want five or more room choices. 92 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: Kind of give me what you think are the three 93 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: best choices for the class, and then I'll make a 94 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: decision from a more limited choice set. 95 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: So almost getting someone else to do the work for 96 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:37,679 Speaker 1: you in part to get to that short list. 97 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 2: Well, you're having someone kind of whittle down the list, 98 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: so then you can focus on making the best choice 99 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: among a sec a subsection of that list. 100 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: And what other strategies do you use I guess with 101 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: those more important decisions that are more high stakes to 102 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: make sure that you're making a good decision, like I know, 103 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: you know, certainly in psychic literature and I guess cognitive 104 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: psychic literature, there's been what's written about things like decision 105 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: fatigue and the benefits of activating the unconscious mind when 106 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: making decisions. What are some of the research findings that 107 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: you tend to apply for when you are making those 108 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: high stakes decisions. 109 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 2: Well, certainly the unconscious mind helps a lot because we 110 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 2: do so much thinking outside of our deliberate thoughts, and 111 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: in many respects we're more creative. So when I'm facing 112 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 2: kind of a decision that involves creativity, so it could 113 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 2: be around writing something, or how to present something, or 114 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 2: thinking of a research question, I like to take a 115 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: walk and I like to actually, counterintuitively not think about 116 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 2: the decision that I'm making. And this is hard for 117 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: people to grasp because they're like, well, you're not working, 118 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 2: then how are you actually going to make the decision? 119 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 2: And what people need to realize is that the brain 120 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 2: is still activated even when you're not thinking about something, 121 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 2: and what the research teaches are is that by doing 122 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 2: something that takes kind of a low level of cognitive activity, 123 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 2: that actually activates the brain to be thinking about more 124 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 2: important things separately. And I'll often find that at the 125 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: end of the walk, I have some type of epiphany 126 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: and I solve my problem, and it's almost like the 127 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 2: best of both worlds because I feel like I kind 128 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: of have a semblance of what to do, but I 129 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: also feel like I wasn't actually working. So I think 130 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 2: that's an important part is certainly the subconscious aspect of it. 131 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: I think another thing that would really help too is 132 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 2: to recognize that, like you know, as an academic, so 133 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: much of our work is like that last twenty percent, 134 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: and it's like, how do you get this thing exactly perfect? 135 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: And you know, maybe when you're trying to submit a 136 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 2: research paper or you're writing a book, you really want 137 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 2: it to be perfect. But most of the decisions that 138 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: I make, and most of the decisions that most people make, 139 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: don't require that type of perfection. And I think if 140 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 2: we relax our standards and we say okay for this decision, 141 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 2: even though it's important, is good enough going to be 142 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 2: good enough? Do we need to get to that perfection? 143 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: And is it worth the incremental effort to get that 144 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: extra ten percent out of it? And in most cases 145 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 2: I would say it's probably not. So I think there's 146 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 2: an importance of recognizing that in many cases good enough 147 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: or in kind of the decision making world we talked 148 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 2: about satisfying, that's a viable approach for making these decisions, 149 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 2: because otherwise we're just going to burn out from all 150 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: of these decisions, and later decisions that we have to 151 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: make aren't going to be as effective because we've just 152 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 2: run ourselves into the ground. 153 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: That is it for today's show. If you want to 154 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: listen to the full episode, I link to that in 155 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:53,839 Speaker 1: the show notes, so you might want to check that out. 156 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: And if you are enjoying how I work, I would 157 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: be so deeply grateful if you just take five seconds 158 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,239 Speaker 1: out of your date to leave a review in Apple Podcasts. 159 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: It might be a star rating or a few words, 160 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: and by doing so, it helps other people find the 161 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: show and it also brings a huge smile to my face. 162 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: So thank you to the hundreds of people that have 163 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: left reviews. It is so deeply appreciated. So that is 164 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: it for today's show and I will see you next time.